Rachael Kirkconnell: I Was Blindsided

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Speaker 1 What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy.

Speaker 1 Rachel Kirkonne, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 1 Obviously,

Speaker 1 you're going through a very, very public breakup right now. It's like not under the best circumstances that we're sitting down together.
I think it was a shock to the world.

Speaker 1 We're going to find out today if it was a shock to you, but just like overall, how are you doing right now?

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Speaker 2 Um, it's different every day. I'm doing okay.

Speaker 2 I would say some days are better than others. Like one day I'm like feeling kind of empowered.
I'm like, you know what? Yeah, it's okay. Like I'm excited to be on my own.

Speaker 2 And then the next day I like can barely get out of bed and I just miss him and I'm sad about everything.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, it just comes and goes. It's different every day.

Speaker 1 I think that like

Speaker 1 why

Speaker 1 I especially want to talk to you today and what we're going to get into, though, is like, even you just saying that is so relatable.

Speaker 1 Like, probably everyone watching this has been through a breakup and a breakup is like not linear where you're like one day like, oh my God, I'm perfect again.

Speaker 1 So like, I think I appreciate you being honest because breakups are so emotionally devastating and hard, especially if you're the one getting broken up with.

Speaker 1 I obviously want to talk to you about everything that's happened, but first I do think it's kind of important we just kind of go back to like when you met Matt on The Bachelor.

Speaker 1 Why did you want to go on that show?

Speaker 2 Oh my gosh. It's actually a funny story.
I didn't want to go on the show. Okay.
Did not sign myself up for the show. My friends nominated me and they didn't tell me that they nominated me.

Speaker 2 I think they put in in just some, you know, the

Speaker 2 filled out the online thing. And I got a call.

Speaker 2 I was grocery shopping. It was like middle of COVID.

Speaker 2 So I'm getting this call from a random LA number. And I'm like, that's so weird.
Like, who's trying to reach out to me right now from LA? But I was grocery shopping. So didn't answer.

Speaker 2 Got a text from the same phone number. Didn't open the text.
I was like, this, I thought it was like a job. I was applying for jobs everywhere.
It was like one of those things where where it was like

Speaker 2 You know, I don't think anyone knew what was going on in the world. So I just was seeing what could happen

Speaker 2 and so I thought it was a job getting back to me and then I got a voicemail So then I'm like, oh my gosh, I need to call these people back if like they're actually, you know, trying to set up an interview with me or something.

Speaker 2 So I get to my car and

Speaker 2 I immediately listen to the voicemail and it's someone from the bachelor saying they received an application from me. I thought it was a joke.
I thought it was a prank. I text my friends.

Speaker 2 I'm like, who did this? Like, what's going on? So three of my friends started freaking out and they're like, oh my gosh, we filled out an application for you like months ago. So it's real.

Speaker 2 You know, I didn't think it was an actual thing.

Speaker 2 And at first I was like, I'm not doing that. I'm going to be the villain or I'm going to be like one of the crazy girls.
I didn't know how it worked.

Speaker 2 So I was like, I'm going to be, I don't know, just not, it's not going to go well for me. So at first I was like, no, I'm not doing that.
That sounds crazy.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 I did have a call with them and they were like, you know what? Just go with the process and just see. Like my friends were like, just see what they even want from you.

Speaker 2 Like, I just want to see the ins and outs. I was like, okay.

Speaker 2 So I started doing interviews and I still was like really nervous about it, really not feeling it, but it was COVID. And it was just like, let's just see where this goes.

Speaker 2 Then they announced Matt in June, I think, as a bachelor. And that's when I was like, wait, okay.
He's very, very

Speaker 2 attractive. He seems like a great guy.
And I would love to get to meet him. Yeah.
So that's when I was like, okay, actually, this would be really fun if given the opportunity.

Speaker 2 And I don't think any of us found out,

Speaker 2 I think like two weeks before we had to fly out, we got like the okay if we were on the show or not. So I had two weeks to like decide if I wanted to do it, get all my shit together.
And, you know.

Speaker 1 Wait, why do you think your friends applied you? Like, had you come out of a breakup? Were you chronically single? Like, what was your vibe?

Speaker 2 Um, I think at the time, a lot of my friends were in relationships and I wasn't. Um,

Speaker 2 and my friends love or loved the show. I don't know if they really watch so much now, but at the time loved The Bachelor.
I think it

Speaker 2 just, um, whose season? I think it was Pilot Pete's season, right? Oh my gosh. And it was a shit show.
It was great TV, you know? So that was like peak, Bachelor, I would say. Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 So my friends were like, we need to get one of our friends on this show.

Speaker 2 And I mean, it was like me and I think two other girls in our group were single and they just were like, we need to apply Rachel. We think she'd be great.

Speaker 1 Had you been in a serious relationship before The Bachelor?

Speaker 2 Honestly,

Speaker 2 not like an adult, like serious. relationship.
I think my last relationship was a year before that. It was about six months.
And it was with like one of my best friends growing up.

Speaker 2 We were just always like, you know, had feelings for each other. So we gave it a shot.
And it just was one of those things where we probably should have just stayed friends. Classic.

Speaker 2 And it wasn't even him. It was just more so me.
Like I was just going through a hard time or a weird time in my life. And I was like, I don't need to be in this relationship, especially with like.

Speaker 1 one of my best friends and now to this day our relationship's weird but that's like the worst when i have people write in all the time and they're like Should I go for my friend?

Speaker 1 And I'm like my advice is just prepare that it will never be the same so but I also like commend you for like going for it because it also you then the other side is you always have the what if like yeah, would we have been perfect?

Speaker 1 So I guess like hearing that though like was there any part of you knowing how the bachelor works that you were nervous at all that like this is something that ends in engagement after a couple weeks of knowing someone.

Speaker 2 I think like it was one of those those things where I couldn't even believe it was happening.

Speaker 2 Couldn't even believe that I kept making it through these interviews and that I got the call and that they actually wanted me on the show.

Speaker 2 Um, I feel like, I don't know, I told myself, like, I'm kind of boring. Like, I don't know if I would be good TV for this show.
I guess I was confused why they wanted me on the show. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 and so I think the whole time, even when I got there, I'll never forget walking very first night, walking out of my hotel room and seeing one of the girls. She's so stunning, so perfect.

Speaker 2 Her name is Sarah.

Speaker 2 I saw her and I was like, I'm screwed.

Speaker 2 All of these girls are so stunning, gorgeous, seem perfect. And I just was wondering like why I was there really.

Speaker 2 And then it got to the point where I was like, well, I guess like, I just hope I make it past this first night.

Speaker 2 So I never, I guess I didn't really think too much about an engagement only because I didn't think I would ever get that far.

Speaker 1 I think that makes sense. And I don't, like, I think sometimes with The Bachelor 2, like, people would be like, So, you weren't going in for an engagement?

Speaker 1 Like, I don't think anyone goes in with that headspace. I think it's kind of more your situation where you're like, I'm throwing myself into this situation.

Speaker 1 There's no way I'm going to end up at the end.

Speaker 2 And there was like 40 girls on our season, too. Right.
So, I'm like, what are the odds out of 40 plus or, you know, 36 to 40 girls?

Speaker 2 Why would he pick me? I don't know. I was like, there's just no way that out of all these women that he would be interested in me of all.

Speaker 1 What, what was your first impression, like in person of Matt when you met him?

Speaker 2 I don't want to say like love at first sight, but definitely just like total infatuation, like right off the bat. I feel like we had a connection immediately.

Speaker 2 And it's funny, though, because I'm sure all the girls say that when they first get in, like, we clicked or we sparked or whatever.

Speaker 2 But I think he would agree with that, that we both just felt a connection immediately and it felt very comfortable and

Speaker 2 like we were just talking to each other like there weren't a million cameras and million people around we were talking about like waffle house and you know just stupid things that they probably were angry that we were chatting about because they're like, this is not good TV.

Speaker 1 Right. They're like, let's ramp it up.
Like either make out or get in a fight. And you're guys like, but watch.

Speaker 2 And that was like, that was like every conversation we had was just like we were just talking about stupid stuff that wasn't good for tv but to us it was just natural normal fun easy conversation yeah it's like the real shit in life like exactly it's not going to be all glamour once you guys leave it you guys may be literally going to waffle house and like you'll want to be chilling the show is like they're like tell us your deepest darkest secrets and your trauma you know and it's like I'm sure you'll get there eventually, but I'm not going to like tell someone that two minutes into knowing them.

Speaker 1 I guess, you know, so what was the moment that like really made you realize, like, oh my God, I'm fully falling in love with this guy?

Speaker 2 I think it was like

Speaker 2 right before

Speaker 2 our one-on-one. I didn't get a one-on-one until like the fifth week of filming.
I was pretty late in the game to get a one-on-one.

Speaker 2 And I don't know, just like what little time we would have together,

Speaker 2 it was just so easy. And I I

Speaker 2 hadn't like clicked or just sparked with someone like that,

Speaker 1 maybe ever in my life.

Speaker 2 Just like right off the bat, just like so into each other, you know?

Speaker 2 And then it was definitely like solidified on our one-on-one. We spent the whole day together.
And I was like, okay, I can really see myself with this person. And you always have to ask yourself,

Speaker 2 like, is this bubble of is this just infatuation because we're in like this romantic setting and we're getting you know all this incredible treatment and you're literally in a fairy tale so it's easy to fall in love or fall hard in that situation

Speaker 2 but even

Speaker 1 with all of that like knowing that was in my head thinking about it i still felt like no this is real yeah like you knew If we step outside of this, I still feel like no matter, if anything, like there's a chance you were excited to get out of that to like live real life

Speaker 2 by the the end. Yes.
Right.

Speaker 1 Obviously, your guys' season ended pretty unconventionally. You got the final rose, but Matt didn't propose.
How did you feel about that decision?

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 you know, like I said, at first, engagement wasn't even

Speaker 2 in the back of my mind. Like, I just wasn't even thinking that was ever something that would happen to me.

Speaker 2 But then

Speaker 2 I think when we finally told each other we were falling in love with each other on our one-on-one, I was like, like, all right, this could be a very big possibility now.

Speaker 2 So it's definitely something that I have to think about.

Speaker 2 But it was one of those things where it felt like it was out of my control because I still, I wasn't the one handing out roses at the end of the day.

Speaker 2 So it was one of those things where I told myself, like, if we do make it to the end of this and he proposes to me, of course, I would say yes.

Speaker 2 The proposals on the bachelor are just interesting because I think you've seen plenty of couples

Speaker 2 I think you've seen plenty of couples repropose

Speaker 1 and say like, this is the actual engagement.

Speaker 2 And I'm not saying that the engagements aren't real on the show,

Speaker 2 but I think now having been through it all, it would be so crazy to get engaged with someone you barely knew

Speaker 2 and you've only known each other for a few weeks. And so I was totally okay with that.
We had a conversation off camera

Speaker 2 about

Speaker 2 not

Speaker 2 getting engaged. I knew that was coming.
Okay. I didn't know if the show would convince him that he needed to do it or that he realized he should do it.

Speaker 2 So I told myself, like, if it was, if it were to happen, I would say yes, but I didn't expect it to happen.

Speaker 1 So you were like fully on the same page. Like, it's okay if he doesn't propose.
Like, if anything, you're having conversations off camera.

Speaker 1 And he, did he come to you and be like, hey, I, like, what was that conversation like?

Speaker 2 So that was during Fantasy Suites. That's like the most time you get off camera so

Speaker 2 we were

Speaker 2 just talking about what that final day would look like

Speaker 2 and i think that we were both worried about production having like little tricks up their sleeve um

Speaker 2 which ended up you know us not getting our final date and

Speaker 2 i remember Chris Harrison showing up to my door telling me that Matt's really confused and he doesn't want to see me.

Speaker 2 And at first I'm laughing laughing because I'm like, this is so you guys, this is not him.

Speaker 2 But then I have a meltdown because I'm like, well, whoever it is, I don't get my last date now. And, you know, we don't get like our last moment together before all of this ends.

Speaker 2 And now I'm going into this proposal feeling terrible and feeling very insecure and just weird about the whole thing. Like it was a really heavy feeling on the day.

Speaker 2 But I knew, yeah, I mean, as soon as he said he couldn't propose, it was one of those things where I was like, not disappointed, but I just was

Speaker 2 thinking like, okay, you're not proposing, but are we still going to be together? I guess I was like, what's true? What's not true? Are you about to break up with me? Are you about to leave?

Speaker 2 Like, are we about to not be together? Or do you still want to be with me? So then when he was like, I still want to be with you. I want to try this out in the real world.
I was excited.

Speaker 2 But the rest of the felt like they were literally breaking down the set as we were still doing like our final. They were done.

Speaker 1 They were like, stop.

Speaker 2 Waste of a seat. Yeah, they were just, it felt like a failure, like, because they didn't get an engagement out of it.

Speaker 1 I'm dying. They're literally breaking it down.
They're like, fuck you guys. We wanted him down on one knee.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 But what I do like, I think a lot of people respect about that is like, we've all seen like people on social media now, and everything is like less romanticized as maybe it was back in the day because of social media.

Speaker 1 And we get kind of like glimpses behind the scene of like what actually reality TV is not so reality in moments.

Speaker 1 But I do think there was a level of respect maybe people had of like, wow, if anything, maybe that means he and her will actually work out because they're literally going to do even more work off camera now rather than we have seen couples be like, yay, and then they like don't even last two weeks past it.

Speaker 1 So I think that there was a sentiment of like, maybe he is more real for making that decision in the beginning.

Speaker 2 Well, that's what I thought at the time. Like when we're having that conversation off camera, I'm thinking like, wow, he's so level-headed.

Speaker 2 And I love the idea of like us one day getting engaged for us and not for an audience and not for people that like won't care in a week or two. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Obviously, then you guys film. And then as the show was airing, some controversial photos of you came to light.

Speaker 1 And during the final episode, Matt basically made it pretty clear like he was going to take a step back from the relationship.

Speaker 1 What was really going on with you guys?

Speaker 2 I think that he felt so much pressure with just

Speaker 2 how the state of the world was, or the state that the world was in at the time with Black Lives Matter. And that was the year after George Floyd.
And it was like just such a heavy,

Speaker 2 heavy topic in our country at the time. And then, of course, all of the controversy within the show did not help.

Speaker 2 And I think he felt so much pressure to just make the right decision and to stand by what was was right for him at the time.

Speaker 2 And, you know, strangers and people that were really close to him in his life were saying, like, I don't think you should be with her.

Speaker 2 And so I think at the time he thought that was the right decision, just to take a step back and,

Speaker 2 yeah, not

Speaker 2 be together.

Speaker 1 How did you feel about all that? And like, how was it articulated to you?

Speaker 2 It hurt because it felt like he was doing it for others and not for himself.

Speaker 2 It felt like he didn't want to not be with me and he did want to be with me, but he just felt so much pressure from everyone

Speaker 2 to not be with me. And so even to this day, like, I think a lot of people have a lot of opinions on that, like what was the right decision, if he should have stood by me or not.

Speaker 2 And I never

Speaker 2 held that over his head. I never will hold that over his head because I don't know how he felt in that situation and I never will understand.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I know that he thought he was making the right choice and the right decision and I'll stand by him, you know, forever with that.

Speaker 2 That was okay. Yeah.
As much as it hurt,

Speaker 2 it was, yeah, one of those things where I'm like, you know what, you do need to do what's best for you in the situation. And I understand.

Speaker 1 So you guys

Speaker 1 end, but was it like, we're going to take a break, but we're still going to talk? Were you guys like completely done? Like, did you think this relationship is completely over?

Speaker 1 Like, what were the next steps after that kind of ended?

Speaker 2 So, I was definitely shocked when he broke up with me, only because we were very happy together. Even with all of the chaos around us, when it was just me and him behind closed doors, it was amazing.

Speaker 2 It was so much fun. We were so happy when we decided to not let the outside noise get to us.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I don't know, it was one of those things where we broke up and he said we're broken up,

Speaker 2 but we did still talk like every single day. I think we went like a few days without talking at first when we first broke up.

Speaker 2 And then after that, it was one of those things where we just started slowly. speaking again and it was one of those things for me where I was like are you happy like are you

Speaker 2 happy with this decision? Like, do you think that you'll be okay moving forward without, you know, at least just seeing if this is real? Like, we both think it is.

Speaker 2 And yeah, we slowly just started talking again.

Speaker 2 And I think after the final episode aired and

Speaker 2 there was a big group that was. mad that we weren't together.
Like there was, of course, the people that were like, you know, good job. Yes, you shouldn't be with her.

Speaker 2 But then there was this group after the finale because there was a lot of speculation, but no one was 100% sure if we weren't together or not until he said on the show.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I think when we saw how many people were like, you should just be together, like, what the heck?

Speaker 2 I think we both had to sit down and have this conversation of like, okay.

Speaker 2 Let's put all of this outside noise aside. Let's put everyone aside.
What do we want? Like, how do we feel?

Speaker 2 And we just came to the conclusion that we really do love each other and we really do want to make this work or at least give it a chance.

Speaker 2 Like, let's give it a fair chance, even with all the craziness. And we did.
And it was great.

Speaker 1 Even with, I mean, I think that first year was hard, but I was going to say, like, I think I remember like seeing things on.

Speaker 1 me chronically online, Reality Steve. I'm like, how do I even know that name? But I remember like when you guys were kind of in what seems like like this in-between, like

Speaker 1 I was going to ask, like, were you talking to other people? Was he talking to other people? Like, did you guys have an agreement? Like, it's okay if we hook up with other people.

Speaker 1 Like, what was the.

Speaker 2 We never really discussed that. I think, like, I was, I was barely getting out of bed, let alone dating other people.
Like, I was just so not okay.

Speaker 2 And I just wanted to be with him to where.

Speaker 2 dating,

Speaker 2 that was just like so out of the question for me. Like, that wasn't even a thought I had in the back of my mind.
And I felt like when we were talking,

Speaker 2 we never discussed it, but I felt like things that he said and, you know, us talking every day, it seemed like he wasn't either.

Speaker 2 But that was not the case. He definitely was.
And that's okay because we were broken up. I just wish I knew.
Yeah. Because I found out, I found out via Reality Steve.
Well, he contacted my,

Speaker 2 well, now she's my sister-in-law, but she, or Reality Steve contacted my brother's girlfriend at the time, and she told me.

Speaker 2 And I was with Matt.

Speaker 1 What did he say?

Speaker 2 So he basically

Speaker 2 said that there was a girl that reached out to him saying, like, you know, Matt and me have been speaking. He's been trying to get me to come over and hang out.
And

Speaker 2 I just saw that him and Rachel were seen together in New York when he was literally just trying to hang out with me like two days prior. And I don't think she knows.
So I just want her to know.

Speaker 2 And so I was given that information.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I was just, I was really, really upset just because I felt like

Speaker 2 it was definitely kept a secret from me. He technically didn't lie because I never asked, but

Speaker 2 at the same time, I never would have. Well, maybe he did lie a little bit.
Now I'm trying to think about it. Maybe there were some lies in there.

Speaker 2 Cause I was very, very, very upset when I found everything out. And I just remember telling him that he lied to me.
Yeah. So

Speaker 2 with all of that, I just remember storming out of his place. And I was like, don't ever talk to me again.
Like, we're done. Cause I just found out a lot of stuff all at once.
And

Speaker 2 yeah, I just was definitely a little bamboozled for sure.

Speaker 2 So then, like, we go another week without talking. And

Speaker 2 long story short, he ends up being in Atlanta for work.

Speaker 2 and I'm at my friend's apartment. The hotel they put him in is right next to my friend's apartment.
Like, we could throw a rock at it, you know.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 yeah, I

Speaker 2 think he saw my location. He saw I was like literally 100 feet from him.

Speaker 2 And he was like, I understand you probably don't ever want to talk to me again, but can we meet just so I can apologize and just, you know,

Speaker 2 share my side of things? And I said yes.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 we sat in my car. I wouldn't let him come up to her apartment last night.
So I met him downstairs and we sat in my car and talked for like six hours, just sitting in the parking garage.

Speaker 2 And, you know, he explained everything. I heard him out.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it was just one of those things where he was like, just give me a chance. I'm sorry.
And I do love you and I do want to be with you. And I'm done, you know, playing these games.

Speaker 2 Like, let's give this a real shot. Let's get back together.
So I said, okay, I gave him the chance because I loved him.

Speaker 1 When you got back together, coming off of that, coming off of the dynamic on The Bachelor, like,

Speaker 1 did you have a hard time trusting him?

Speaker 2 Thousand percent. So

Speaker 2 I told myself, like, he has a lot to move on from with me, and then I have a lot to move on from with him.

Speaker 2 So we both need to decide, like, if we really do want to be together, we need to forgive and move on.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I think that's a lot easier said than done.

Speaker 2 I just was really insecure the first year of our relationship. I think it was

Speaker 2 everything that happened, of course, but also that power dynamic, like him

Speaker 2 being the lead of, you know, a dating show and me just being a contestant. And

Speaker 2 yeah, I felt like there was always that,

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 just not imbalance of power, but it definitely felt like he was like the star and I was just, you know, his little like groupie or something. And it's not like anything he did.

Speaker 2 It was just, I think that

Speaker 2 probably every couple that comes from the show might have a little bit of difficulty in that area of like, you know, you were this

Speaker 2 person that 40 women were fighting over and that everyone's obsessed with. And then I'm just, you know, some girl.
That's how it felt. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And so, and then even, yeah, going out publicly, it seemed like I told myself that the world hated me, that everyone hated me, but everyone loved him.

Speaker 2 And so I feel like when we would go out, it'd be like, oh, Matt James and Rachel, like, I don't know. And I don't know if that was in my head or not, but that's just how it felt.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So I definitely felt, and it was one of those things where I'm like, he could get anyone. He could have anyone.
Like, why is he with me?

Speaker 2 And so when he would go do things without me, I'd be like, there's probably like someone hotter and cooler and more fun than me hitting on him right now. And like, why is he even with me?

Speaker 2 Yeah, just really, really insecure. I felt like

Speaker 2 I had a hard time trusting him because of what was happening when we were apart. Okay.
And that girl coming to Reality Steve and everything.

Speaker 2 I'm just like, yeah, asking myself like are you still doing this but

Speaker 2 i know to this day like and i even see this online now he's not a cheater you know he i never

Speaker 2 actually had to worry about him cheating on me because technically if he was ever with other women we were apart so i can't you know call him a cheater or worry about him cheating on me was that the only time that you guys were apart when he was with another woman or was there yeah okay yeah so the whole so from your understanding the four years of your relationship he was faithful to you yes i think i see a lot of that right now because i reposted a funny video on tick tock of like some girl i don't know doing something to her best friend's ex-boyfriend so now everyone's thinking that there was but that was before we even broke up so so the first year was difficult but then there's three years to come that And again, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but like seemed like you guys were so happy every time I opened Instagram.

Speaker 1 You guys were in a new city or a new country and you were trying different foods and you were, you know, being thrown into these beautiful other cultures and experiences.

Speaker 1 And it just felt like you guys were on this whirlwind together. Like,

Speaker 1 how did that lifestyle of just constantly going and traveling together feel?

Speaker 2 I think at first it was so,

Speaker 2 it was so fun. Like I couldn't believe that my life was what it was.
You know, I just went from being this normal person to

Speaker 2 going on this crazy dating show, actually falling in love, being with the guy, and then we're doing these really fun experiences that I would have never done otherwise. So it was so much fun,

Speaker 2 even through like all the insecurities and everything. But

Speaker 2 I think for the first like two years, it was just

Speaker 2 fun

Speaker 2 dating, not really too worried about

Speaker 2 like a proposal and marriage. I mean, we definitely always had those conversations, but I don't think either of us were in a rush yet.

Speaker 2 Like, I think those first few years, it felt like a normal relationship. Yeah.
You know, when you,

Speaker 2 I think in like the real world, dating for a few years without a proposal or marriage is normal. Yes.
So that's what we were both telling ourselves.

Speaker 2 Like, we just want to have the most normal relationship possible because it definitely started out very unconventionally. And it still is crazy just having,

Speaker 2 you know, strangers care about your relationship. It's great sometimes, but yeah, other times it's a lot.

Speaker 2 So it was just

Speaker 2 really not, it was, I hate saying it wasn't too serious, but it was just more fun and really getting to know each other and just dating. And then

Speaker 2 I think like

Speaker 2 last year,

Speaker 2 our third year, well, I guess that was two years ago now. Yeah.
So I guess our third year of dating was when I started to

Speaker 2 just ask like, okay, so where is this going? Like what? I didn't ever want a timeline of things. I

Speaker 2 never

Speaker 2 wanted to know like when a proposal was coming. I think like some girls these days, like they want.
to know when it's coming. They want to pick the ring out.
They want to pick their outfit out.

Speaker 2 And I always told him like, I don't want to know anything. I want to be so shocked, so surprised.
Um, but I do want to know that that's where your head's at and that we're on the same page.

Speaker 1 So, and what would he say?

Speaker 2 He seemed like he was on the same page, like, that's why it's

Speaker 2 try not to cry. It's okay,

Speaker 2 it was like

Speaker 2 just confusing to look back on now

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 when we would talk about things,

Speaker 2 he always seemed seemed like he was on the same page

Speaker 2 privately and publicly.

Speaker 2 You know, whether we were doing interviews or whether he was replying to people in comments,

Speaker 2 like talking about

Speaker 2 getting married and everything like that.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 yeah, I guess it's just hard to think about, it's just one of those things that you replay a lot over and over again.

Speaker 2 Because the words were there, and

Speaker 2 you know, us talking about

Speaker 2 taking the next steps, all of that was fine, but, you know, the actions obviously weren't there.

Speaker 1 I was going to say, like,

Speaker 1 from my understanding, obviously you spent four years together, but you never lived together?

Speaker 2 No, so like, that was another thing. He

Speaker 2 said that he didn't want to live together until we were married. And he's a very religious man.
So I was like, that's okay. I can do that.

Speaker 2 But at the the same time, I'm a little confused because we're still,

Speaker 2 you know, traveling together, staying in the same hotel. And it was like we were living together.
Like half of his stuff is still at my place in Georgia right now.

Speaker 2 But he always had an apartment in Miami or New York. So we were either in New York, Miami, or in Atlanta.
And I think at the time, I just.

Speaker 2 didn't

Speaker 2 worry about it too much because it was fun.

Speaker 2 I feel like whenever we would talk about our life, we would say like, we want multiple homes anyways, like to be, or just, you know, a little space here and there, like a home home somewhere.

Speaker 2 But it'd be fun to have, to keep the apartment in Miami or keep the apartment in New York. And so I think that I was making excuses for it because it was one of those things where

Speaker 2 we were saying that that was going to be our life anyway. So

Speaker 2 I guess I just didn't think too much on it. But I also think it was me trying to justify it just because I didn't want to worry, like,

Speaker 2 well, is this like fear of like, you know, taking the next steps? You know, of course, you don't want to admit that to yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So now, yeah, looking back on it, maybe that's is what it was.

Speaker 1 But did you have

Speaker 1 any friends or your family be like, Rachel, how are you guys not living together yet?

Speaker 2 No, only because the religious. Yeah, well, it was like we basically did live together.
at least in georgia

Speaker 2 it was like our house like that's where home base was for us i would say like that's where most of his stuff was that's obviously where all my stuff is and whenever we weren't traveling that's where we would be okay so it did feel like we were living together but at the end of the day it was my place

Speaker 2 i don't know yeah so it was just one of those things where looking back probably that was probably a red flag but i just tried to tell myself that it was okay when you say that you guys talked about engagement, do you mind sharing just like how detailed did you guys get?

Speaker 1 Like, did you talk about how many kids? Did you talk about where you like, can you share?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I honestly think we talked about family and kids more than anything, which is like

Speaker 2 that sucks more than anything, I think. Cause

Speaker 2 I think when you picture your life or

Speaker 2 you have an idea of what it's going to look like, like. And now I'm like, I have no idea what life looks like from here on out.
And

Speaker 2 yeah, it's sad to

Speaker 2 like think about these.

Speaker 2 I'm trying not to laugh at myself, but like,

Speaker 2 yeah, I'm like picturing these kids that are obviously like

Speaker 2 no longer a thing,

Speaker 2 which like kind of sounds crazy. I'm not trying to sound like an insane person, but you don't sound crazy.
That's, yeah, that's probably like one of the saddest things about it is

Speaker 2 just picturing your life with someone and thinking like that is how your life's gonna look. And then now it's just all taken away.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 yeah, we talked about rings. He told me a few months ago to start, you know, saving some things, picking things out, or that we should go look at some.

Speaker 2 And that was a big deal, I would say, for him to say.

Speaker 2 That's when I was like, wow, okay, he really is like on board with this. Like, that was such a green flag to me.
And I felt like the longer we were together, the more he was able to talk about it. And

Speaker 2 I think at first, I could tell it was something that did scare him a lot, or it was like a really hard thing for him to talk about. And it just seemed easier and easier as our relationship went on.

Speaker 2 So I felt like that was a good sign. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And yeah, I don't know. I just, I think when he started talking about kids and picking out a ring and wedding food and where we want the wedding, like stuff like that,

Speaker 2 I used those things to just hold on, if that makes sense. Like, I don't know if there were any actions following those things, but when you're told these things, you just like want to hold on to them.

Speaker 1 When you look back at those conversations, do you see any like patterns or themes of like when he would engage in it? Like, was it when you were like,

Speaker 1 you know what I mean? Like, was there any like him engaging being like,

Speaker 1 I want you to be the mother of my children? Like, I want to have a wedding. Like, do you, did you ever see a pattern?

Speaker 2 Um, I definitely would, I'm sure I would bring it up more,

Speaker 2 but it wouldn't ever be in like a pressure kind of way, it would just like

Speaker 2 come naturally in a conversation. But

Speaker 2 he seemed more than happy to talk about things too. And

Speaker 2 I don't know, it wasn't like a pattern of,

Speaker 2 I think, for at the end of the day, when I think about things, like the words were there, but the actions weren't. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like they weren't matching. So he would say these things, but then,

Speaker 2 okay, well, what are we, what are you doing to

Speaker 2 get to this? if that makes sense like what are we doing actively to

Speaker 2 have an engagement and plan a wedding and all of this stuff, you know, like you said that we can go look at rings, but okay, is that going to happen?

Speaker 2 You know, because it was one of those things where I was like, okay, you said that, but I'm going to see, I'm going to let him bring it back up if he meant it, you know? That's tough.

Speaker 1 Because from what I'm hearing from you two, it's like you're again, kind of like waiting for him

Speaker 1 to engage in some capacity and it's like kind of on his terms.

Speaker 1 and it's I'm like that I'm that's really hard I'm sorry because it's hard to break then that pattern of like when someone is kind of the one in control to get to just feeling like we're in a partnership and it's not me kind of like tiptoeing and seeing if you're interested like it's hard to break that cycle yeah it's just it's it's such a weird thing to begin with because at the end of the day like It's mostly men who propose.

Speaker 2 It's, of course, different for everyone these days, but

Speaker 2 Everyone's like, yeah, she's on his timeline. She's on his timeline.
I'm like sitting here. I'm like, what am I supposed to do? Like, I don't know.

Speaker 2 It's one of those things where at the end of the day, he's the one that needs to get down on a knee.

Speaker 1 I think in a beautiful way, and this is what I know we're about to get there, but like just cutting to the other side of it for you is like I've been there where I felt the same exact way where I was like, we, he talks about the house in in Westchester with me and we're like together, but I still like, nothing has happened yet.

Speaker 1 Like I can tell you now

Speaker 1 having a partner that it does feel super like 50-50 and everything with my husband. Like

Speaker 1 I wasn't surprised at all when,

Speaker 1 oh my God, his name is Matt too. Fuck.
When Matt, but like when Matt would like bring things up about future or like, let's go ring shopping together, like where in previous relationships I was.

Speaker 1 And I think I recognized because I had never had it, which I'm like hopeful for you to experience of like, it was, we were so in lockstep that

Speaker 1 I could have gotten down on one knee, you know what I mean? And like, I like, so I think I get what you're saying.

Speaker 1 And I think a lot of women experience this where like we condition ourselves to believe like it will is his decision at the end of the day. And I think,

Speaker 1 unfortunately, like that's not how it should be.

Speaker 1 Yes, the gesture for him physically getting on the knee is so romantic and fun, but like you should still have a say in whether it's going to happen or not and not have to wait for someone to do that for you.

Speaker 1 And I think a lot of women are going to be sitting listening to this interview being like, fuck, Rachel.

Speaker 1 Like there may be women listening to this that are realizing right now, Rachel, like they're in the same situation as you. It's like he keeps saying these things.

Speaker 1 The words are there, but the actions aren't.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Um,

Speaker 1 I'm curious, like,

Speaker 1 over the course of your relationship, we're talking about engagement, we're talking about a wedding. Did Matt ever express any doubts about your guys' future together?

Speaker 2 I think there were times in our relationship where

Speaker 2 I don't want to say he seemed scared, but I think that he felt the weight of marriage really heavily on him. And I

Speaker 2 think that's for him to discuss like why he felt like that.

Speaker 2 I never

Speaker 2 knew if it was because there was something wrong with me or like not wrong with me.

Speaker 2 I keep trying to tell myself that there's nothing wrong with me, even though like, of course, it feels like it sometimes. But

Speaker 2 I ask myself, like, is it me or is it him? Like,

Speaker 2 is it something that he needs to figure out? You know, is there something that scares him? Is there something that he went through growing up that, you know, he has this trauma now?

Speaker 2 Or am I just not like his perfect person?

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 so I would just say,

Speaker 2 I still don't know. I think, like, time will tell, and I think that he'll have to

Speaker 2 answer that and figure that out. But

Speaker 1 obviously, every couple like has their problems. Like, no couple is perfect.
Um, for you and Matt, like, what

Speaker 1 would typically trigger an argument?

Speaker 2 We really didn't

Speaker 2 argue a lot. Um,

Speaker 2 when we would argue, it would more so be like someone did something to piss the other person off.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 I don't know, it was like we both, I guess we were both pretty stubborn. So we both thought that we were in the right and that they were in the wrong.
And

Speaker 2 we just had a hard time seeing eye to eye sometimes. Like I was always trying to remind him.
Sorry, I was always trying to remind him

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 we are on the same side and the problem is the problem. Like we're arguing like this when it should be like, okay, we're a team.
Here's the issue. How can we fix this together?

Speaker 2 It was either that or it was just acting out of

Speaker 2 like in the moment, acting out of anger and not meaning things. So then it was one of those things where I was like, okay,

Speaker 2 if we're ever annoyed or irritated, let's just, you know, take a breather.

Speaker 2 Let's not talk for a second and really try to figure out what the actual problem is, like where this. anger is stemming from and then we can discuss it.

Speaker 1 Was there someone in the relationship that would like apologize first more often?

Speaker 2 This is what's crazy is I feel like I

Speaker 2 was apologizing a lot. Even if I was the one that was mad about something,

Speaker 2 we would sit down and I'd be like, I'm annoyed about this. And then at the end of the conversation, I would be the one that would be saying sorry.
And I started feeling crazy. But

Speaker 2 At the end of the relationship, he basically said that I have

Speaker 2 a hard time taking accountability and apologizing.

Speaker 2 And I'm sitting here, I'm like, I'm going crazy because I feel like I do say sorry a lot for things that I'm not even like sure what I'm saying sorry for, you know?

Speaker 2 But that's, maybe that was his argument that I wasn't understanding. I think that we just had

Speaker 2 hard times understanding where we were each coming from.

Speaker 1 And now I still feel crazy, you know, I'm like, I, first of all, you're not crazy.

Speaker 1 And what you just said, one of my really close friends friends just went through where she was like, I'm always the one having to take accountability.

Speaker 1 And he's getting so mad at me if, like, I don't own it. But I'm like, wait, but like, I don't know.

Speaker 2 I didn't, am I like, yeah, why am I

Speaker 2 doing anything?

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's it. We're in this fight because you did this and somehow I'm upset.
And then I'm having to, that's like,

Speaker 1 that's not healthy. That's not fair to you.
Because when you look back, why do you think you were so quick to take accountability in arguments, even if it wasn't your own problem?

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 2 he was just so like adamant that

Speaker 2 I have a hard time like admitting I'm wrong or taking accountability. And so

Speaker 2 when your partner is telling you those things, like you want to believe them.

Speaker 2 You want to be like, okay, if this really is like a problem I have and something that you're really upset about, then of course, like, I want to try to do what I can

Speaker 2 to fix that. But yeah, it's, it's, I don't know.

Speaker 1 I don't know if I'll ever know the feeling of leaving an argument and not feeling like you both won, there is no winning.

Speaker 1 It's like, oh God, we like you kind of said, like we came together and we solved that together. Like, how did you feel a lot of times when you would apologize?

Speaker 1 Like, and then you walk away from that situation after like the 50th time. Like, did it start to weigh on you?

Speaker 2 Um, I would say it didn't weigh on me in the sense that it made me angry, but it almost

Speaker 2 worried me that he

Speaker 2 was gonna leave me or break up with me or

Speaker 1 that I wasn't good enough.

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 I think, like, when you're told that you're the one in the wrong, then you're like,

Speaker 2 okay, so what can I do

Speaker 2 to be better? or be a better partner.

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 yeah, now looking back back on it,

Speaker 2 I have to ask myself, like, was it deserved or not? I don't know. But

Speaker 2 yeah, it was one of those things where I went into

Speaker 2 the conversation

Speaker 2 irritated with him, and then I leave the conversation like hoping that he's not irritated with me

Speaker 2 and that I'm sorry and I want him to not be mad at me. Like, you start to lose your mind a little bit.
Let's talk about the breakup.

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Speaker 1 From what we can see online, when your relationship ended, you were in Tokyo together. What was the state of your relationship when you were going into that trip?

Speaker 2 It was great. I mean, we were literally talking about engagement, marriage, all the things on that trip.

Speaker 2 We had been

Speaker 2 together since,

Speaker 2 I think it was like January 3rd, I met him in London. So we were in London having a great time.

Speaker 2 And then we went from London to Tokyo

Speaker 2 just because

Speaker 2 we had the time and we had these like flight vouchers that were expiring for like an international flight. And

Speaker 2 Japan is like my favorite country in the entire world. So we were like, Let's just do it while we can.

Speaker 2 So it was very unplanned,

Speaker 2 very last-minute trip, but it was fun, exciting. You know, everything was great.

Speaker 1 There was nothing wrong.

Speaker 1 So, okay, so we're in Tokyo. Everything's going fine.

Speaker 1 What happens?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 it's, it's just so hard to grasp because I still I don't even know if like

Speaker 2 he

Speaker 2 knew it was coming like or if he or if it was like he at the moment. I don't know.
So everything was fine. The night before

Speaker 2 we didn't have an argument, but I was feeling very overwhelmed. I was like trying so hard to find like a good dinner spot for us because the spot we ended up wanting to go to was closed or something.

Speaker 2 So, we were scrambling. And I was putting so much pressure on finding a good spot because he cares.
Like, this is like his career, you know, like going to good food spots.

Speaker 1 So, I thought he would do like a review if you guys got there of like food.

Speaker 2 Anywhere we would go if it was good. Like, literally, every

Speaker 2 single meal that we would have, we were filming. So, yeah, I think I just put so much pressure on myself to

Speaker 2 find good spots if I'm the one that's finding a spot.

Speaker 2 So on top of that, I just started my period. I felt terrible, like just was having like a rough few hours, I guess.
And I remember asking him to help me find a spot.

Speaker 2 And he was like,

Speaker 2 you know, no, like, I think he was like doing something else on his phone. And he was like, it doesn't matter where we go.
Like, we can go literally anywhere, just like pick somewhere.

Speaker 2 I don't, he kept saying, like, it's not a big deal. It doesn't

Speaker 2 But I felt like it was a big deal and that it did matter. So we get to this place, it wasn't what I thought it was going to be.
Um,

Speaker 2 and it was just one of those things where I'm like tired, cranky, emotional, on my period, feeling terrible, overwhelmed with looking for a dinner spot for like an hour, and then we get there, and it was a disappointment.

Speaker 2 So then I started tearing up at dinner. Two tears, one, two, we're done.
Didn't you know, allow myself to get upset after that. I just tried to calm down.
We went home. And...

Speaker 1 Did he say anything?

Speaker 2 No, didn't say anything. But

Speaker 2 in the past, if I have like a little meltdown like that, or if I'm feeling overwhelmed or anything, he just like lets me move through the motions, get it all out of my system, and then, you know, okay, I'm ready to talk.

Speaker 2 Something like that.

Speaker 1 So dinner, like, did you guys have like normal conversation?

Speaker 2 No, we didn't even, we didn't even talk. Like, we just sat there, had dinner, got into the Uber.

Speaker 1 Wait, Rachel, why

Speaker 1 did you feel so upset about like the menu not being good?

Speaker 2 I felt like whenever we would go somewhere and it was bad that I,

Speaker 2 it was just disappointing because

Speaker 2 I think like we're on trips, it's like every meal counts. Like every dinner, every, everywhere we go, it counts.

Speaker 2 Or it just, it's important because you go, you know, only have so many meals in the day and

Speaker 2 this sounds crazy but as like a food person I'm trying to just make sure that he's

Speaker 2 getting

Speaker 2 good content for our trip and stuff because I know like it's important to him and that it's something that we'll both post about

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 I'm just feeling bad, I guess, that it was a bad spot. And then

Speaker 1 are you feeling

Speaker 1 like you're disappointing him?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I guess. I guess.
Yeah, disappointing him or just, yeah, like, I think he was just like, what is the big deal? So, we finally get to the hotel and I give him a hug.

Speaker 2 And he, I could just tell, like, he was just like, you know, not very comforting. And I'm like, are you mad at me? And he was like, I'm just so confused, like, why you were so upset.

Speaker 2 Like, what was that? And I explained to him, I'm like, I felt like I had let you down. Like, I felt like that was disappointing.
And I hate going to a place that

Speaker 2 isn't somewhere that, like, you could post about. I feel like it's a waste.

Speaker 2 And he just was trying to tell me, like, it's not that serious. Like, it's not that big of a deal.
But then he was concerned about me getting so upset.

Speaker 2 He was like, that was like, there was no reason for you to get upset like that. And he found it concerning

Speaker 2 that I

Speaker 2 got

Speaker 2 that emotional, I guess.

Speaker 2 And so then I was, and he just was trying to express to me, like, if you get emotional about little things like this, like, what is going to happen in life when something really terrible happens?

Speaker 2 Like, how are you going to be able to react to things that are actually

Speaker 2 really scary or disappointing or sad? Um,

Speaker 2 and I think, like, I don't know, it just hurt to hear because I'm like, I probably

Speaker 2 would react to

Speaker 2 things that are terrible in a sad way. Like, what do you mean? I don't know.
It felt like I was being punished for crying. It was just so weird.
I don't know. Still don't really know

Speaker 2 that whole situation. I just was really confused by his reaction.

Speaker 1 And in the past, like, how does Matt usually respond when you are upset?

Speaker 2 He'll let me

Speaker 2 give me my space.

Speaker 1 Do you want space?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 2 No, I don't. I like want to be comforted, but

Speaker 2 for some reason, Matt always thought that I'd need space and then we'd talk about it after, even though I would tell him like, I don't want you to like give me my space because then I feel like I'm not getting any support, you know, or like comfort from you.

Speaker 2 But that was.

Speaker 2 Just something that he thought like he just needed me to calm down and then we would talk and everything would be okay.

Speaker 1 So this happens and then is literally the next day the breakup?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 So you wake up the next morning. What are the vibes? Is he tense? Are you guys acting weird?

Speaker 2 Like take me through that whole day. Everything was fine.
Like when we went to bed, he was saying like, it's okay. It's okay.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I just let it go. He let it go.
It was totally fine the next day. Okay.

Speaker 2 And I think it was one of those things where,

Speaker 2 I mean, literally a few days before, we're talking about

Speaker 2 how he

Speaker 2 feels lucky to have me as a partner and that, you know, there's just like so many qualities that he loves that I have and that, you know, we see relationships with other people where they deal with a lot and

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 or put up with a lot of things and he's like it's just so nice that, you know, I just feel

Speaker 2 like very lucky that I can call you my partner. And that was so crazy to think.
Like, that was like two days before the breakup.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And that morning, everything was fine. We were in good moods.

Speaker 2 And I think it was one of those things where it was just a little,

Speaker 2 maybe a little argument open up a can of worms. So

Speaker 2 we were on the way to

Speaker 2 get some food. And

Speaker 2 I was like scrolling through my phone, showing him a bunch of videos. I guess I was bothering him.
I was annoying him.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 he

Speaker 2 didn't snap at me, but he basically was like, okay.

Speaker 2 kind of snapped at me to where I got mad at him because I was like,

Speaker 2 you know, even if I'm annoying you, like, don't treat me like that.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 so then it seemed like we were both kind of like mad at each other or annoyed with each other. So when we got to this place, it was just this big market with a bunch of different food and everything.

Speaker 2 So we get there and I just walk off and go do my own thing for a second.

Speaker 2 I'm picking up like chopsticks and things for my friends. And

Speaker 2 he's going to find this like matcha spot that he was really excited to try. So we kind of just get there and split up for a little bit, which wasn't, you know, normal.
Like

Speaker 2 usually we would be doing these things together.

Speaker 1 And how do you feel in that moment? Like, are you, do you have a pit in your stomach? Are you like something's off?

Speaker 2 No, I just was like,

Speaker 2 I didn't think anything serious, like too much of it. I really didn't.
I just was annoyed. with him.
That's all. Like I was annoyed with him and he was annoyed with me.

Speaker 2 Like it really didn't even seem like that big of a deal. It was just one of those things where you're just like,

Speaker 2 you know, at that point, we had been together non-stop for like three weeks. And I think, like, you just

Speaker 2 get annoyed with each other about little things. And I think that's where we were.
We were just like irritated with one another with little things.

Speaker 2 But I didn't think anything of it. It just, it was what it was.
And then

Speaker 2 we had some food, we got back in the car, and I just was being really quiet. And

Speaker 2 he was like,

Speaker 2 you know, can I ask like why you're being so quiet? And I was like, I'm just,

Speaker 2 I feel like you're irritated with me right now,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 don't really like want to say anything if I don't have to say anything because I just don't want to bug you.

Speaker 2 Like, I just don't really want to chat right now if there's nothing I have to say because I just want to try and like give you your space because I feel like you're annoyed with me right now.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that is just like what opened up everything.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 we had gotten into an argument

Speaker 2 right then and there, like walking in the street. We skipped lunch.
We went back to the hotel and just ended up having like a bigger conversation.

Speaker 2 I think that's what I was saying, like can of worms, where it wasn't a big deal. We were just a little irritated with one another.

Speaker 2 But then it was like, okay,

Speaker 2 now that.

Speaker 2 We're back here again where like you're annoyed with me. I'm annoyed with you.
I feel like you're in the wrong. you feel like I'm in the wrong.

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 he really just

Speaker 2 kind of let out everything that I guess he had been

Speaker 2 feeling for a while. I don't know.

Speaker 1 Can you share some of that?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, he just

Speaker 2 said that at the end of the day,

Speaker 2 there were just qualities about me that he worries

Speaker 2 about

Speaker 2 having in a wife. Like, at the end of the day, like, there are things that we aren't compatible

Speaker 2 with. And, like, the whole accountability and saying sorry and all that was really the main thing.

Speaker 2 And, um,

Speaker 2 yeah, it was just one of those things where he, I think, just had this realization that

Speaker 2 I should want to

Speaker 2 propose to you by this time. Like, at this point in our relationship, I should be wanting those things.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I should be ready for that, but I'm not still.

Speaker 2 I still don't feel like we're ready, or I don't feel like I'm ready.

Speaker 2 I don't know if I ever see myself proposing to you.

Speaker 2 I can't actually see myself married to you.

Speaker 2 He said that,

Speaker 2 you know, maybe one day he would get there, but he doesn't feel ready now. And I told him, I said, well, I feel like after four years,

Speaker 2 you should

Speaker 2 know or you should feel ready.

Speaker 2 And if you don't, then that's not a good thing.

Speaker 2 We probably shouldn't be together if

Speaker 2 you don't feel like that after four years because you know me better than anyone. I know you better than anyone.

Speaker 2 So, you should know by now if

Speaker 2 you

Speaker 2 see this for the long haul or not.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it was just one of those things where it was like, Do you want

Speaker 2 to make this work? Like, do you

Speaker 2 think that it's me, or is it something with you? Like, are you scared, or is it really me? Like, is

Speaker 2 your perfect person

Speaker 2 somewhere out there? You know, is it not me?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 yeah, he came to the conclusion that he didn't think it was me and

Speaker 2 that he

Speaker 2 said like he just didn't want me to end up resenting him

Speaker 2 by like wasting more of my time if it wouldn't happen.

Speaker 2 And yeah, he just said, you know,

Speaker 2 you're beautiful, smart, and funny, and

Speaker 2 you'll find someone. You'll find a guy that will

Speaker 2 love you for you. But yeah, he just didn't think that it was him.

Speaker 2 But it was just really,

Speaker 2 it's just a lot to

Speaker 2 hear at once because a few days before, you know, I'm hearing the opposite.

Speaker 1 In that moment, Rachel, were you like

Speaker 1 vocalizing like anything in terms of like, why have you, why have you been so vocal? Like, I've seen him on podcasts and he's commented in random like fan accounts being like, engagements coming soon.

Speaker 1 Like, he's been overly vocal more than you about like telling the world, like, oh, it's coming. Like, it's coming, which like

Speaker 1 is a little odd. I'm not going to lie.
Like, in my opinion, I was like, like, how much he was speaking about it.

Speaker 1 And yet, like, now what you're sharing for him to just like quickly be like, never mind, like, in that moment where you're like, then why have you been saying this?

Speaker 1 Why did two days ago you say I was like the perfect partner with you?

Speaker 2 I think because

Speaker 2 he,

Speaker 2 I think it's because he did love me or does really love me,

Speaker 2 and I think he wanted it to work out,

Speaker 2 and like, I think he wanted to picture it, and

Speaker 2 it was one of those things where it was like, well, it would definitely be easy too. Like, it just would make sense.
And that was like the next steps naturally in our relationship. And

Speaker 2 he does love me to where I think he just wanted it to work. But I,

Speaker 2 I guess at the end of the day, like, as much as he wanted it to work and as much as he loves me, he still just doesn't think that I'm like the person for him.

Speaker 2 And so I think maybe he was just trying to see if he could get there or convince himself that it was the right thing. But yeah, I'm at the point now where I'm like, I still don't know.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't know if he reacted out of anger or spite or if he didn't mean it.

Speaker 2 And to be totally honest with you, if he didn't post it so publicly, like right after he broke up with me, I don't even know where we'd be right now.

Speaker 2 Because I think when someone tells you that to your face, like, I don't think you're my person. I don't ever picture us getting married.
it's your time to walk away. Like,

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 can't stick around after that, even if I want to, even if it's hard for me to let go. And, like, I love him so much, and I wanted him to be my partner.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 yeah, I think when someone says that to you, it's like, what else? What else can you do? Yeah, you have to give it up at that point.

Speaker 1 When you were hearing him say all of this to you, like, what was going through your head?

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 gosh, honestly,

Speaker 2 I think, like,

Speaker 2 I was worried that he thought that for a little while. Like, I guess in the back of my mind, I always wondered if he

Speaker 2 had doubts or like,

Speaker 2 yeah, just had doubts about me being his, his person.

Speaker 2 And I only had those doubts because,

Speaker 2 you know, the actions, like I said, weren't following up with his words. So I'm like, I feel like I just want to be with someone who like is so excited to be with me and wants to,

Speaker 2 wants to marry me and is excited to, you know, start a life with me. And I feel like it was definitely one of those things with him where

Speaker 2 I could feel like he was nervous.

Speaker 2 But I just always told myself

Speaker 2 he was nervous because of like like how he grew up and he didn't want to end up like his father or just didn't want to like

Speaker 2 end up in like a broken home

Speaker 2 and that he took it really really seriously which he would probably say the same thing that he just puts so much weight on it because he never wants to

Speaker 2 do

Speaker 2 to his family what his dad did to them.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I also told myself that

Speaker 2 I think like

Speaker 2 sometimes that put like a hindrance on our relationship.

Speaker 2 And I always wondered like, is it me or is it something that like we need to like work through together?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 at the end of this conversation, is it like, okay, so we're breaking up?

Speaker 2 It ended with him saying, you know,

Speaker 2 you're beautiful, smart, funny. You'll find someone.
I'll never say a bad thing about you.

Speaker 2 And yeah, we're done. And I literally said, okay.
I said, okay.

Speaker 2 Didn't say anything else. I just said, okay.

Speaker 2 And then I got my suitcase, went down to the lobby, got in a car,

Speaker 1 went to the airport. Did you have a ticket?

Speaker 2 Yeah, so I

Speaker 2 had to leave a day before. Okay.

Speaker 2 I was trying to make it home for a baby shower that I did not end up going to.

Speaker 1 He did this right before he knew you were having to go to the airport to fly from Tokyo to Atlanta. Yes.

Speaker 2 So that was, yeah, just,

Speaker 2 I just couldn't believe it.

Speaker 2 Going to the airport, I was like, what the hell is happening? You know? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like, were you in shock?

Speaker 2 Were you crying? Both. Just like.

Speaker 2 pure shock, so much confusion.

Speaker 2 Obviously sad because of everything he just said to me. Very, very hurtful.
Which here's the thing. He's allowed to feel like that.
If that's really how he feels, you're so allowed to feel like that.

Speaker 2 I wouldn't want someone to propose to me and be married to me just because they felt like they have to, even though they didn't feel like they wanted to.

Speaker 2 So at the end of the day, if that's really how he felt, then he's so valid to feel like that. And at least we figured that out before we were married or anything.

Speaker 1 Also, it doesn't take away from the fact, Rachel, that like it seems like you were completely blindsided.

Speaker 2 I mean, yes, I it was definitely out of nowhere. I don't think he was planning on doing it.
I think that it was one of those things where he just

Speaker 2 came to this realization in our during our argument. I don't know.

Speaker 1 So, we have to talk about

Speaker 1 his breakup post.

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Speaker 1 Because without a doubt, it is one of the

Speaker 2 weirder cryptic.

Speaker 1 I mean, people on the internet are like, this is going to go down in history. It's like one of the weirdest Instagram breakup posts I've ever seen.

Speaker 1 Can you talk to me about like, where were you when you saw this post?

Speaker 2 Um, so I had just gotten to the airport

Speaker 2 and,

Speaker 2 you know, checked my bags, everything, got on the flight. Okay.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I'm in my seat. And for some reason, my phone, I think it's because I downloaded a VPN on my phone a few years ago and now for whatever reason, it

Speaker 2 cannot connect to plane wi-fi. It just can't.
I don't know why. So whenever I take these long flights like I'm off the grid.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 we're literally getting ready to take off and my phone blows up. It's one of my best friends and it says Rach with a bunch of question marks.

Speaker 2 And as soon as I saw that, I'm like, oh my gosh, how does she know? And then she texts me again and said, I saw Matt's post. Is this real life?

Speaker 2 And that's how I found out that he posted. So then, literally, the plane is taking off, and I see his post,

Speaker 2 and that's it. I

Speaker 2 don't have any service or anything for like the next 12 hours. So, I'm freaking out because

Speaker 2 you know, just got broken up with, and now a few hours later, it's like for the whole world to see.

Speaker 2 And I'm still like trying to process it, like, I'm still in like total shock

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 then knowing like the whole world is seeing this I'm like this is so crazy I can't even wrap my mind around this right now

Speaker 2 and I think that's why you know I

Speaker 2 didn't say anything

Speaker 2 still haven't like made a statement or anything because I'm processing this just like everyone else is. Like I'm a week out of this, you know?

Speaker 1 So, how, what would you say, like, two hours after?

Speaker 2 I would say, like, yeah, two or three hours after he posted that.

Speaker 1 When you read the post, what went through your mind? Like, what did you think of the post?

Speaker 2 Um, I don't know. I honestly didn't think, I guess I was so freaked out about the breakup itself.
And then, just now knowing that I'm going to have to navigate this very publicly.

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 that's kind of all I was thinking. I wasn't even like analyzing the post like everyone else was.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So I guess it was kind of funny just to see what people had to say. Like people thought it was weird that it was a bachelor photo because we definitely like tried to remove ourselves from the show.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 yeah, it was

Speaker 2 interesting to see the caption only because

Speaker 2 I feel like there was no,

Speaker 2 I don't know how to explain it. I guess it almost seemed like saying it like a prayer was

Speaker 2 the easier way to say it than to like say something like real.

Speaker 2 Not that a prayer is real, but just something like authentic to like our actual relationship.

Speaker 2 Um

Speaker 2 but it's very him like

Speaker 2 I guess it didn't surprise me that he said it like that. I guess I was just surprised that he said it at all, that he posted that.

Speaker 1 Why do you think he posted that?

Speaker 2 I would love to know. I don't know.

Speaker 2 I don't know if it was out of just him being so worked up, if it was out of anger, or if it was one of those things where he felt like he needed to do it to really, like, finally just, like, put a nail in the coffin.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I have spoken with him since all of that, and I do know that

Speaker 2 he definitely acknowledges that that was not the right decision. The right decision.

Speaker 1 So we're going to get to that because I'm just thinking, one, was there any part of you on this 12-hour plane ride, one, that wanted to be like, sir, can I borrow your phone?

Speaker 1 Like, were you, I would have been like, like, just to even see, like, were you worried about what people were saying? Or no, you were just still like, oh, no, I was worried.

Speaker 2 It's definitely, yeah, it was one of those things where maybe this ties into my insecurities from the very beginning, but I just felt like there was going to be people like celebrating

Speaker 2 and breaking up with me. I don't know.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 I definitely didn't think that, or just like people just sad, just like, oh, like, so sorry for you guys, like sad to hear this, but like wishing you both the best moving forward.

Speaker 2 I didn't expect it to be this like people getting mad about the posts like that.

Speaker 1 I mean, I'm not going to lie, like sitting here and listening to it, I know there's like different steps basically to like grieving a breakup, but I can't help but be

Speaker 1 mad for you because

Speaker 1 you guys have been together for four years. You've traveled many times together.
That man knows that your phone doesn't work on Wi-Fi on long flights.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, I mean,

Speaker 2 it's like when I step back and really look at everything.

Speaker 2 I'm mad. Like, yes, that's fucked up.
Like, he should not have done that to me after four years. Shouldn't have,

Speaker 2 like, he didn't even text me to give me a warning, like, saying, like, hey, I'm posting this.

Speaker 2 So it just hurt to

Speaker 2 know that, like, that's how my friends found out and my family and like my little sister.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that I didn't even, like, get to talk to them about it or

Speaker 2 just like grieve privately for like a day, you know? So even, like, landing was just so scary. Just like the anxiety that came over me knowing I was like about to get service back and

Speaker 2 I didn't know what I was about to see

Speaker 2 and I just knew my phone was gonna be blown up from all my friends and my family and everything.

Speaker 2 So that hurt.

Speaker 1 What happened when you landed? Like, did you get an Uber home? Who did you go to first? Who did you talk to?

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 I landed and

Speaker 2 I did have my car at the airport. So I was driving home.
And at this point, I think the post went up like 6 a.m.

Speaker 2 U.S. time or like New York time.
So

Speaker 2 I think I landed at like 6 p.m. So it had been like all day.
My friends were waiting to hear from me. Rachel.
I got in my car and I just like did a voice memo and just let them know what happened.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 yeah, I just went home. And, you know, by the time I got home, it was like eight or nine o'clock.
So I just went straight to sleep because I was exhausted. And

Speaker 2 when I'm depressed, I just like completely shut down. And I just

Speaker 2 sleep and I don't get out of bed. So I did that.

Speaker 1 Did you text him? Like, what the hell? You didn't text him.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 2 No, I just.

Speaker 2 felt like the best thing at the time was just to not talk to him.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 because he didn't give me the decency to like give me a heads up or

Speaker 2 even just give me a few days. Like it's one thing to,

Speaker 2 I don't even think you should post

Speaker 2 a breakup announcement the same day you break up. No.
But let alone, you know, not even give me a warning that you're doing it.

Speaker 2 So yeah, I just went home, slept for like what felt like, you know, 48 hours. And then

Speaker 2 finally woke up to my sister coming in my room. She has a key to my house.
So she like let herself in and like woke me up and hung out with me for like the next few days. And then

Speaker 2 I finally like told my friends I could see, I could see them and hang out with them. on Saturday was the first time I saw some of my friends just because I just needed

Speaker 2 just to

Speaker 2 be by myself for a bit and just not talk about it or think about it. I just wasn't ready to like debrief and like

Speaker 2 I think when you talk about it, it just feels more real. So I just wasn't ready to

Speaker 2 like accept it, I guess.

Speaker 1 When

Speaker 1 Breakups also happen, I think one of the biggest mind fucks is like you're sitting there, you're laying in your bed, you're so upset, and the one person that you like want

Speaker 1 to talk to

Speaker 1 is the person that just hurt you. Yep, who reached out first, and like,

Speaker 2 yeah, that was so hard. I completely agree with that.
Where it's like,

Speaker 2 I'm laying in bed and I want him to comfort me, but I'm, but he's the one that hurt me. And I'm so mad at him,

Speaker 2 but I'm also still still like so sad.

Speaker 2 And of course, like, I still love him. So, yeah, just a lot of emotions to work through.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I woke up at like at one in the morning and I had a missed call from him.

Speaker 2 This was,

Speaker 2 I don't know, like

Speaker 2 four, five days after maybe from the post.

Speaker 2 And so I called him back

Speaker 2 because I just didn't know why he was calling me. I didn't know if he was giving me a heads up about something or if he needed something or if he was just calling to talk.
I didn't know.

Speaker 2 So I called him back just to see what he wanted. And

Speaker 2 he just asked how I was doing, which I'm like, what do you think I'm doing? Like, what? Right.

Speaker 2 And then,

Speaker 2 yeah, I confronted him about the post. just said, like, you know,

Speaker 2 that really sucked.

Speaker 2 And that's when he was like, Yeah, I fully admit that I could have handled this a lot better. And he apologized.

Speaker 2 And,

Speaker 2 you know, sometimes people, when they're in a really bad state or they're really, really angry or really, really upset, you know, you make mistakes or you don't handle things in the best way you can.

Speaker 2 But I don't think that

Speaker 2 I just,

Speaker 2 I don't want people thinking

Speaker 2 that like he's this bad guy or

Speaker 2 that he's like not, I don't know, considerate of my feelings or whatever. Cause

Speaker 2 he is a good guy at the end of the day, but obviously he made a mistake doing that. But I think he knows that and I think he regrets it.
So

Speaker 2 yeah, it's just hard because I'm like, I would, I probably wouldn't even be sitting here if he didn't do that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So it's just a lot to like process and work through.

Speaker 1 Well, no, and I also just want to say like,

Speaker 1 this is why social media is so confusing because on one hand, I agree, it's like, we probably wouldn't be sitting here if you didn't post that. But also, it's like

Speaker 1 knowing

Speaker 1 that you are going to at one point have to speak.

Speaker 1 And I think we kind of like were talking about that before this of like, maybe it is nice to just like sit down and even though it's still so fresh, like I think there's a chance you're going to look back on this interview in a year, even six months, and watch some of your responses and be like, oh my gosh, like I didn't see it then.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean? Like everyone has that, Rachel. Like I've literally done that in every relationship I've ever been in.
And so does everyone in the world.

Speaker 1 Like you are still in this like grieving period, clearly. And you're still, even like, understandably, like the way that you're defending him, I'm not saying it doesn't, he doesn't warrant it.

Speaker 1 It's actually just like, when you're getting out of a relationship, you're still kind of in the relationship. Yeah.
Like that, you were together for four years. It's what been what?

Speaker 1 Two weeks, one week?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Not even.
Not even two weeks.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Not even two weeks.
So it's like, I think a lot of this is

Speaker 1 on one hand, there's the part of that me feels bad of like, we're having this so fresh that like, of course, you're not going to have like all the answers or the insight or whatever.

Speaker 1 But I do think hopefully this conversation is going to like alleviate you from,

Speaker 1 listen, Bachelor Nation is amazing. They're also very intense.
And I feel like every single thing you would type would get picked apart. Like there was no, we talked about this.

Speaker 1 There wasn't going to be like a perfect Instagram post or caption or comment you could leave that would like leave people feeling like they have an understanding. Not that they deserve it, but.

Speaker 1 they feel like they do because of the way that your guys' relationship started so publicly.

Speaker 1 So I think it's this like mixed bag of emotions. Yeah.

Speaker 1 When you were finishing like that call with him, like where did you guys leave it? Like what did you say?

Speaker 2 We left it like,

Speaker 2 it's so weird. I was about to say like, I just wish we could somehow be friends because he was my best friend and it hurts to

Speaker 2 not have him as my best friend anymore. But that's like how we left it.
Like we were,

Speaker 2 just talking like everything was okay. You know, I asked him him like how his last day was in Tokyo and like, you know, he filled me in

Speaker 2 on

Speaker 2 like what he did. And then

Speaker 2 yeah, we're, we were just talking like, you know, everything was fine.

Speaker 2 And he ended up falling asleep because I called him back at like 1 a.m. because both of our jet lag was so crazy at the time.

Speaker 2 And yeah, he ended up like falling asleep and I just hung up.

Speaker 1 and that's that. How long was the conversation?

Speaker 2 It was like it was pretty long. It was like over an hour at least.

Speaker 1 Did you guys talk about like, are you gonna do no contact for a little bit?

Speaker 2 Are you no, we didn't discuss that. I don't even I think like that's something that we probably have to do.

Speaker 2 Um we haven't talked a lot. Like he's

Speaker 2 called me every like few days just to make sure I'm okay, but I told him that he didn't need to do that. The last time he spoke, I was like, you don't need to like call and check up on me.

Speaker 2 Like, I'll be okay.

Speaker 2 And so that was, that was that.

Speaker 2 But yeah, I don't know why he's, I don't know if he's feeling bad or if he just wants to see where I'm at. I don't know.

Speaker 1 In your head right now, like. if you're being really really honest with yourself do you think there's any chance you guys ever get back together i don't think i can,

Speaker 2 which is sad. Um,

Speaker 2 I don't think I can because

Speaker 2 I think when someone says those things that he said, you know, like I don't think you're my person, I don't see us getting married. I think that's when you like have to call it quits.

Speaker 2 Um, and then, yeah, just the way that he handled all of this and his posts and everything, like

Speaker 2 I forgive him,

Speaker 2 but

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 just don't think I can be with someone that

Speaker 2 I felt like he disrespected me at the end of the day doing that.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, it's just one of those things where you like have to stand up for yourself, even if you don't want to. Like, of course, there's part of me that

Speaker 2 wishes that we could just get back together and pretend none of this ever happened.

Speaker 2 But, yeah, that's not the case. And I think,

Speaker 2 as hard as it is, I think the right decision is to

Speaker 2 just stand up for myself and be on my own.

Speaker 1 I was going to say, like,

Speaker 1 I'm so impressed by one, just like how you're handling everything, because I think,

Speaker 1 I think a lot of people listening right now, understandably, are going to like

Speaker 1 dissect what you've been saying and

Speaker 1 they're going to judge certain things you've said. They're going to try to analyze things you've said.

Speaker 1 I've even been trying to do it. I'm like, oh, I have an opinion on that and that, but then I'm also like, it's not my life.
This is your life.

Speaker 1 And I also, again, recognize like, this is so fresh for you.

Speaker 1 I do just have to say, in the most painful way, and I don't think the way he did it was right. I do think you're going to look back and you are going to be so fucking grateful that he posted.

Speaker 1 not how he did it, not the way he did it, but the fact that he did it and put it out there, because I think we all can feel it when there's love and when there's history and when there's not something huge that happened of like cheating or whatever, it's so hard not to go back.

Speaker 1 It is easier to go back than to stay away because it's your comfort, it's the person that you love, it's the person you've cried with, it's the person that you've envisioned having kids with and a life with and a marriage with and a wedding with and all the best things that come with life.

Speaker 1 You've pictured it with this person, you've spoken about it with this person.

Speaker 1 So the fact that you now have to be kind of just cut off from this, I do think it will be a blessing for you, Rachel, that like you will look back and be like, I don't know anyone that maybe would have been as strong if that post didn't go up to not go back.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean? Because like you said, you're like, I don't know if he did it in the heat of the moment.

Speaker 1 I couldn't really tell if we were really breaking up in that moment or if he was just angry.

Speaker 1 Like, you do deserve someone that without a doubt wants to be with you and wants to start a life with you and wants to build a family and all the great things.

Speaker 1 And you're right, it doesn't make him a bad person, but

Speaker 1 just from like another woman sitting across from you, like why I said, like, it will be interesting what you, if you look back on this in six months, it's like

Speaker 1 there are a lot of things you're saying that

Speaker 1 as a girl sitting across from you, I'm like, babe.

Speaker 2 Stand up.

Speaker 1 You deserve so much fucking better. And it doesn't mean he has to be then deemed a dick.
It's just like objectively, you deserve so much better.

Speaker 1 Like you annoying him or he not like all these little things that I know we're only getting like basically 1%. Understandably, you're not going to like share your whole relationship, but like

Speaker 1 you deserve so much better. And you should not have to feel like you're in doubt.
You should not have to feel like you are second to him and like there's a power imbalance.

Speaker 1 Like you shouldn't have to feel like that. And I know I don't need to like preach to you, but I just want you, I can tell it's hard right now.

Speaker 2 No, I mean, yeah, I completely agree with everything you're saying. Like, I definitely have an attachment to him right now.

Speaker 2 I mean, how can you not when you spend you know every day with someone for four years straight? And I do love him so much, but yeah, it's just one of those things where

Speaker 2 maybe in another universe we worked out and things were okay, but it just really sucks to like step back and look at how things ended up for us. It's just like heartbreaking

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 but yeah i just think i i do need to just stand up for myself and

Speaker 1 you know tell myself that what he did wasn't okay and that i just need to try and move on i also think like to everyone listening and even us having this conversation right now like i almost started crying when you were like

Speaker 1 like those like children that we envisioned creating together like no longer will exist. Like it's devastating.
Like it's absolutely absolutely heartbreaking. But I also think when

Speaker 1 you get broken up with and you're forced to move forward, I think you're going to have a lot of beautiful reflection, not even on that relationship, but of yourself.

Speaker 1 Like even just like in the past almost two weeks, like, has there been anything that you looked at where four years is a long time? Like.

Speaker 1 Do you think there's any part of yourself that you compromised or you lost within that relationship because when you're in a partnership you do compromise yeah i'm sure um

Speaker 2 i think that's something that with time i'll start to realize but i think like when i have talked to my friends about it i think that they definitely said like

Speaker 2 it just seemed like you were always like giving 110

Speaker 2 but it was difficult

Speaker 2 for him to like reciprocate it at times like it was like pulling teeth to try and get him to come to a wedding with me and just like little things like that.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I love to think I'm this like, you know, like badass independent woman, but I definitely

Speaker 2 would say that I like compromised my values at times because I felt like

Speaker 2 that was the right thing to do in the moment.

Speaker 2 It was definitely like, you know, he

Speaker 2 was like, not the one in charge or anything, but, you know, he definitely took lead and

Speaker 2 I just wanted to support him through everything, whatever that was. And I didn't mind, you know, letting him

Speaker 2 have the spotlight, I guess, if that makes sense. That's poor wording, but.

Speaker 1 I know, I get what you're saying. Like, just to back you up there, like, a lot of what you've shared with me today is like

Speaker 1 a lot of it's been on Matt's terms. It's like, if it's good for Matt, then you're being a supportive partner.
But at what point is it like, what does Rachel want?

Speaker 1 And like, why don't you get to call some of the shots? And like, what would make you happy? And like, why are you having to beg him to do certain things?

Speaker 1 And then when he ever wants to do things, you're like, I'm ready to go. Like, I think that's where I can feel it.
Every woman in America watching this is going to be like, Rachel, I cannot wait.

Speaker 1 And I know this is so premature to even be saying, but like, you've said it to your friends before. We've all said it to our friends when they go through a breakup.

Speaker 1 And because I've lived it and you're about to live it, where it's like,

Speaker 1 you're going to feel the difference when you meet a guy that is all about you and has no doubts. And it doesn't take away from what you and Matt had, but like.

Speaker 1 You are like he said, you are so beautiful and smart and interesting. And you're like a great person.
I can already tell we just met.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, you're great.

Speaker 1 You're great. Someone's going to be so lucky.
And

Speaker 1 that is how you should feel in the relationship where it's like reciprocal not you keeping like wait wait for me like wait what about the like you deserve that everyone deserves that again it doesn't make him a bad person but maybe this is like the biggest blessing that needed to happen in order for you to finally find that partnership that is 50-50 where you do feel like you have a voice of value and you get to stand up for yourself in moments be like, hey, no, I don't need to take accountability.

Speaker 1 Cause why are we having this conversation? Because you made me upset over this. So, you know what I mean? It's like little things that will come, and I'm still working on it, and I'm married.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean? So, it's like it's tough, though. Yeah, why did you want to speak on this today? I know I've spoken a bunch, but like, why did you want to speak on this today?

Speaker 2 I feel like,

Speaker 2 well, when you reached out to me, I

Speaker 2 just

Speaker 2 really thought about it and I

Speaker 2 felt like

Speaker 2 it needed to have a longer conversation than just, you know, a little story or a caption. Or it was just, there was so much to it and a lot to break down.
And I wanted to do this for me.

Speaker 2 I felt like I needed to do it to get some closure with everything.

Speaker 2 And I did want to do it for, you know, anyone else who cared. Like you said, like, we did have a very public relationship.

Speaker 2 And we did have a lot of people supporting us. And I know at the end of the day, like, the only people who really matter in the relationship is you and the other person.
But I did just

Speaker 2 I saw all these rumors and the speculation and the theories and all this craziness. And I just wanted to get the true story out there and just

Speaker 2 share my side of it in case anyone is going through anything similar or if they just feel lost, confused, blindsided, anything. And if anyone can take something away from this,

Speaker 2 then, you know, I'm glad I came. But yeah, I just really wanted

Speaker 2 to do it just to help myself move on and get some closure. And I just feel like after four years and after all this craziness, something just needed to be said.

Speaker 1 No, I really appreciate you being so open because I'm aware, like. If we had this interview, even in like a year from now, I bet if I asked you these same exact questions, maybe

Speaker 1 75% of the answers could be really different, which is the beautiful part of life and time of you just being like, you're in it right now. You're in the grieving stage.

Speaker 1 And slowly more things are going to become more apparent to you. And I really respect how thoughtful you're being about the way you speak about him.

Speaker 1 And I think Daddy Gang listening, like, once you go through a breakup, now you get to just fully focus on yourself. And I know that I am excited for that.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I know it probably feels weird a little bit because you've been in a partnership where for four years it's been like me and him, me and him.

Speaker 1 But now i think in a fun way it's like taking this and knowing all the things of how he didn't make you feel good or when moments where you felt like shit and then the good yeah and

Speaker 1 basically know like what you want next in a partner i'm sure there's things that you're like oh i have to have that matt had that one thing of whether he's funny or whether it's that and you're gonna look for that but then Let's be real, you got a list now of things that you're like,

Speaker 1 I will not put up with that in my next relationship as you should. Yeah.
As you should.

Speaker 1 Is there anything else, just in terms of whether it was like rumors that you wanted to just like dispel that you've read that you were like, wait, that's so not true that you were like, should we just put an end to it?

Speaker 2 I'm trying to think. Like, I've seen so much crazy stuff.

Speaker 2 I tried not to look, but then when I realized we were doing this, I was like, okay, I definitely just want to see like what is being discussed.

Speaker 2 And I think the only thing that made me really sad reading was people

Speaker 2 saying that he cheated or that I insinuated that he cheated because he did not cheat. I don't think he ever cheated.
I don't think that,

Speaker 2 you know, at the end of the day, he's at least a good enough guy to be faithful. Like, I never worried about that.

Speaker 2 And so I just don't want people thinking that he was this like unfaithful guy that, you know, broke my trust or cheated on me or anything. But it's

Speaker 2 also kind of fun to like tell myself that, you know, I can find myself again and get back to just,

Speaker 2 you know, loving me and finding my own confidence because I think it's been missing for four years. I'm not saying that's his fault, but

Speaker 2 there was probably a lot of stuff that I needed to work through from the show that I never have. So, yeah, I guess in a way, I'm just excited to work on myself.

Speaker 1 I also will say just

Speaker 2 girl advice:

Speaker 1 don't let him keep coming back in. I so know what you mean by you want to be friends because how can you envision a world, not only not him being your friend, but like without him? I get that.

Speaker 1 No, I know. I'm going to cry because we've all been there.
It's like, it's unfathomable to be like, Matt's not in my life anymore.

Speaker 1 But what I will say is, like, from experience, I feel like sometimes the person that ends the relationship has the guilt. Like, there's guilt that, and he keeps calling you to check in.

Speaker 1 And unfortunately, it's going to be on you to have to be like, one,

Speaker 1 he's moving on, right? But he's also checking in on you. Yeah.
It's going to prolong you being able to actually be like, okay,

Speaker 1 I have to cut ties.

Speaker 1 And sometimes it does take no contact because it's like, how can you have someone in your life that you did everything with, you loved all of it and still be cordial while you're trying to move on?

Speaker 1 I don't, I don't think that it doesn't mean you can't in a couple years, like see each other out out or at a bar and so be cordial.

Speaker 1 And yeah, but I don't think, in my opinion, I don't think friends, at least in the very beginning, is going to allow you, if we're being selfish for you for a minute, to move on. Yeah.
You got to.

Speaker 2 No, and that's why I told him, I said, you know, you don't have to call me and check in on me. Like, I'll be okay.

Speaker 2 Cause, yeah, I do agree. I think that like even just hearing his voice on the film

Speaker 2 is just really hard, you know, and it makes me miss him.

Speaker 1 But I promise you, the best part, and everyone that's gone through this, you know what I'm talking about. It's like, you're literally like, no, I literally can't live without him.

Speaker 1 Like, how is my life going to go on? Like, he's my best friend. He's my everything.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then when you do no contact, all of a sudden, whether you're like at the nail salon one day or you're walking down the street or you're at a friend's birthday party or having a wine night with your girls, you're going to like smile to yourself and you're like, oh my God,

Speaker 1 I haven't thought of him in like weeks. I haven't thought of him, or even if it's days.
You know what I mean? Like it's slow wins, but then all of a sudden

Speaker 1 you move on. So thank you so much for coming on.
Thank you. You are such a sweet person.
And I'm really, really, really sorry that this happened to you. But like I said, like,

Speaker 2 girl, girl, girl, we're getting back out there.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It is only the beginning.

Speaker 2 Well, thank you for having me. Thank you.
Appreciate it. Thank you so much.

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