Rachael Kirkconnell: I Was Blindsided

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What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding father alex cooper with call her daddy rachel kirkano welcome to call her daddy thank you obviously you're going through a very very public breakup right now it's like not under the best circumstances that we're sitting down together i think it was a shock to the world we're gonna find out today if it was a shock to you, but just like overall, how are you doing right now?

call her daddy is brought to you by airbnb okay so i went on a trip with all of my girlfriends to vermont where my best friend was getting married and we were all gonna figure out like where do we want to stay and oh this place is too far away and if you stay there i won't really get ready with you. And then we decided on an Airbnb and it was the best decision of the weekend because we got this house.
All of us stayed there. Matt came, my friends came, my friend brought her boyfriend and we all were able to feel like we were almost back in college where we were all in one space.
We all got to make our coffee together. We got to eat breakfast together.
We got to go on walks together. We got to have late night conversations after we went to the rehearsal dinner and the weddings.
And it was just the best time because I feel like if you don't stay in an Airbnb, you're not going to be as close. You're not going to have those late night conversations.
And we as girls, you know how much goes in to those late night conversations. We also had a pool table, which was so fun.
The guys ended up playing while the girls were having wine in the living room in front of the fire, just talking about all the things about life and dating and relationships. You know, a wedding makes you emotional.
I told Matt in 2025, My goal is to stay in more Airbnbs wherever we go. If we're exploring a new city, culture, learning a new language, traveling, wherever it be, Airbnb is where it's at.
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Have you ever had the best first date and then all of a sudden everything takes a turn for the worst? The director of Happy Death Day brings you a perfect date night thriller called Drop, which hits theaters April 11th.

A woman going on her first date begins to get mysterious, unwanted dropped messages from an unknown sender.

From the producers of Megan and producers of A Quiet Place, audiences will be on the edge of their seats.

Don't miss Drop, hitting theaters on April 11th. It's different every day.
I'm doing okay. I would say some days are better than others.
Like one day I'm like feeling kind of empowered. I'm like, you know what? Yeah, it's okay.
Like I'm excited to be on my own. And then the next day I like can barely get out of bed and I just miss him and I'm sad about everything.
So yeah, it just comes and goes. It's different every day.
I think that like why I especially want to talk to you today and what we're going to get into, though, is like even you just saying that is so relatable. Like probably everyone watching this has been through a breakup and a breakup is like not linear where you're like one day like, oh, I'm perfect again so like I appreciate you being honest because breakups are so emotionally devastating and hard especially if you're the one getting broken up with I obviously want to talk to you about everything that's happened but first I do think it's kind of important we just kind of go back to like when you met Matt on The Bachelor why did you want to go on on that show? Oh, my gosh.
It's actually a funny story. I didn't want to go on the show.
Okay. Did not sign myself up for the show.
My friends nominated me and they didn't tell me that they nominated me. I think they put in just some, you know, the filled out the online thing.
And I got a call i was grocery shopping it was like middle of covid so i'm getting this call from a random la number and i'm like that's so weird like who's trying to reach out to me right now from la but i was grocery shopping so i didn't answer got a text from the same phone number didn't open the text i was like this. I thought it was like a job.
I was applying for jobs everywhere. It was like one of those things where it was like, you know, I don't think anyone knew what was going on in the world.
So I just was seeing what could happen. And so I thought it was a job getting back to me.
And then I got a voicemail. So then I'm like, oh my gosh, I need to call these people back if like they're actually you know trying to set up an interview with me or something so I get to my car and I immediately listen to the voicemail and it's someone from the bachelor saying they received an application from me I thought it was a joke I thought it was a prank I texted my friends I'm like who did this like what's going on so three of my friends started freaking out and they're like oh my gosh we filled out an application for you like months ago so it's real you know I didn't think it was an actual thing and at first I was like I'm not doing that I'm gonna be the villain or I'm gonna be like one of the crazy girls I didn't know how it worked so I was like I'm gonna be't know, just not, it's not going to go well for me.
So at first I was like, no, I'm not doing that. That sounds crazy.
And then I did have a call with them and they were like, you know what, just go with the process and just see, like my friends were like, just see what they even want from you. Like, I just want to see the ins and the ins and outs I was like okay so I started doing interviews and I still was like really nervous

about it really not feeling it but it was COVID and it was just like a let's just see where this

goes then they announced Matt in June I think as a bachelor and that's when I was like wait okay

he's very very attractive he seems like a great guy and I would love to get to meet him yeah

Thank you. as a bachelor and that's when I was like wait okay he's very very attractive he seems like a great guy and I would love to get to meet him yeah so that's when I was like okay actually this would be really fun if given the opportunity and I don't think any of us found out I think like two weeks before we had to fly out we got like the okay if we were on the show or not so I had two weeks to decide if I wanted to do it, get all my shit together.
And, you know, we, why do you think your friends applied you? Like, had you come out of a breakup? Were you chronically single? Like, what was your vibe? I think at the time, a lot of my friends were in relationships and I wasn't. And my friends love or loved the show.
I don't know if they really watch so much now, but at the time loved The Bachelor. I think it just, whose season? I think it was Pilot Pete's season, right? Oh my God.
And it was a shit show. It was great TV, you know? So that was like peak Bachelor, I would say.
So my friends were like, we need to get one of our friends on this show and I mean it was like me and I think two other girls in our group were single and they just were like we need to apply Rachel we think she'd be great had you been in a serious relationship before the bachelor honestly not like an adult like serious relationship I think my last relationship was a year before that it was about six months and it was with like one of my best friends growing up we were just always like you know had feelings for each other so we gave it a shot and it just was one of those things where we probably should have just stayed friends classic um and it wasn't even him it was just more so me like i was

just going through a hard time or a weird time in my life and i was like i don't need to be in this relationship especially with like one of my best friends and now to this day our relationship's weird but that's like the worst when i have people write in all the time and they're like should i go for my friend and i'm like my advice is just prepare that it never be the same. So but I also like commend you for like going for it because then also you then the other side is you always have the what if like, yeah, would we have been perfect? So I guess like hearing that though, like, was there any part of you knowing how The Bachelor works that you were nervous at all that like this is something that ends in engagement after a couple weeks of knowing someone I think like it was one of those things where I couldn't even believe it was happening couldn't even believe that I kept making it through these interviews and that I got the call and that they actually wanted me on the show um I feel like I don't know I told myself like I'm kind of boring like I don't know if i would be good tv for this show i guess i was confused why they wanted me on the show yeah um and so i think the whole time even when i got there i'll never forget walking very first night walking out of my hotel room and seeing one of the girls she's so stunning so perfect I'm Sarah I saw her and I was like I'm screwed like all of these girls are so stunning gorgeous seem perfect and I just was wondering like why I was there really and then it got to the point where I was like well I guess like I just hope I make it past this first night so i never i guess i didn't really think too much about an engagement only because i didn't think i would ever get that far i think that makes sense and i don't like i think sometimes with the bachelor too like people would be like so you weren't going in for an engagement like i don't think anyone goes in with that headspace i think it's kind of more your situation where you're like i'm throwing throwing myself into this situation.
There's no way I'm going to end up at the end. And there was like 40 girls on our season two.
Right. So I'm like, what are the odds out of 40 plus or, you know, 36 to 40 girls? Why would he pick me? I don't know.
I was like, there's just no way that out of all these women that he would be interested in me of all what what was your first impression like in person of matt when you met him um i don't want to say like love at first sight but definitely just like total infatuation like right off the bat i feel like we had a connection immediately and it's funny though because i'm sure all the girls say that when they first get in, like, we clicked or we sparked or whatever. But I think he would agree with that, that we both just felt a connection immediately.
And it felt very comfortable. And like, we were just talking to each other, like, there weren't a million cameras and a million people around.
We were talking about like Waffle House and, you know, just stupid things that they probably were angry that we were chatting about because they're like, this is not good TV. Right.
They're like, let's ramp it up. Yeah.
Like either make out or get in a fight. Yeah.
And you guys like, but Waffle House. And that was like, that was like every conversation we had was just like, we were just talking about stupid stuff that wasn't good for TV.

But to us, it was just natural, normal, fun, easy conversation. Yeah, it's like the real shit in life.
Exactly. It's not going to be all glamour once you guys leave.
You guys may be literally going to Waffle House. And like you'll want to be chilling.
The show is like they're like, tell us your deepest, darkest secrets and your trauma, you know. and it's like I I'm sure you'll get there eventually, but I'm not going to like tell someone that two minutes into knowing them, I guess, you know?

What was the moment that like really made you realize like, oh my God, I'm fully falling in love with this guy?

I think it was like right before our one-on-one.

I didn't get a one-on-one until like the fifth week of filming. I was pretty late in the game to get a one-on-one.
And I don't know just like what little time we would have together. It was just so easy.
And I hadn't like clicked or just sparked with someone like that maybe ever in my life just like right off the bat just like so into each other you know um and then it was definitely like solidified on our one-on-one we spent the whole day together and I was like okay I can really see myself with this person and you always have to to ask yourself, like, is this bubble of,

is this just infatuation because we're in like this romantic setting and we're getting,

you know, all this incredible treatment and you're literally in a fairy tale.

So it's easy to fall in love or fall hard in that situation. But even with all of that, like knowing that was in my head thinking about it I still felt like no this is real yeah like you knew if we step outside of this I still feel like no matter if anything like there's a chance you were excited to get out of that to like live real life by the end yeah right um obviously your guys season ended pretty unconventionally you got the final rose but matt didn't propose how did you feel about that decision so you know like i said at first engagement wasn't even in the back of my mind like i just wasn't even thinking that was ever something that would happen to me but then i think when we finally told each other we were falling in love with each other on our one-on-one, I was like, all right, this could be a very big possibility now.
So it's definitely something that I have to think about. But it was one of those things where it felt like it was out of my control because I still, I wasn't the one handing out roses at the end of the day.
So it one of those things where I told myself like if we do make it to the end of this and he proposes to me of course I would say yes the proposals on the bachelor are just interesting because I think you've seen plenty of couples I think you've seen plenty of couples re-propose and say like this is the actual engagement and I'm not saying that the engagements aren't real on the show but I think now having been through it all it would be so crazy to get engaged with someone you barely knew yeah and you've only known each other for a few weeks. And so I was totally okay with that.

We had a conversation off camera

about not getting engaged.

I knew that was coming.

I didn't know if the show would convince him

that he needed to do it

or that he realized he should do it.

So I told myself like,

if it were to happen, I would say yes,

but I didn't expect it to happen

so you were like fully on the same page like it's okay if he doesn't propose like if anything you're having conversations off camera and he did he come to you and be like hey I like what was that conversation like so that was during fantasy suites that's like the most time you get off camera So we were just talking about what that final day would look like and I think that we were both worried about production having like little tricks up their sleeve um which ended up you know us not getting our final date and I remember Chris Harrison showing up to my door telling me that Matt's really confused and he doesn't want to see me.

And at first I'm laughing because I'm like, this is so you guys, this is not him. But then I have a meltdown because I'm like, well, whoever it is, I don't get my last date now.
And, you know, we don't get like our last moment together before all this ends. and now I'm going into this proposal feeling terrible and feeling very

insecure and just weird about the whole thing at like our last moment together before all this ends and now I'm going into this proposal

feeling terrible and feeling very insecure and just weird about the whole thing like it was a

really heavy feeling on the day um but I knew yeah I mean as soon as he said he couldn't propose

it was one of those things where I was like not disappointed but I just was

thinking like okay you're not proposing but are we still going to be together I guess I was like

What's not true? Are you about to break up with me? Are you about to leave? Like, are we about to not be together or do you still want to be with me? So then when he was like, I still want to be with you. I want to try this out in the real world.
I was excited, but the rest of the felt like they were literally breaking down the set as we were still doing like our final they were done they were like stop waste of a seat yeah they were just i felt like a failure like because they didn't get yeah an engagement out of it i'm dying they're literally breaking it down they're like fuck you guys we wanted him down on one knee yeah but what i do like i think a lot of people respect about that is like we've all seen like people on social media now and everything is like less romanticized as maybe it was back in the day because of social media. And we get kind of like glimpses behind the scene of like what actually reality TV is not.
So reality moments.

But I do think there was a level of respect maybe people had of like, wow, if anything, maybe that means he and her will actually work out because they're literally going to do even more work off camera now rather than we have seen couples be like yay and then they like don't even last two weeks past it so I I think that there was a sentiment of like maybe he is more real for making that decision in the beginning well that's what I thought at the time like when that conversation off camera, I'm thinking like, wow, he's so level headed. And I love the idea of like us one day getting engaged for us and not for an audience and not for people that like won't care in a week or two.
Yeah. Obviously, then you guys film.
And then as the show was airing, some controversial photos of you came to light. And during the final episode, Matt basically made it pretty clear like he was going to take a step back from the relationship.
What was really going on with you guys? I think that he felt so much pressure with just how the state of the world was or the state that the world was in at the time with Black Lives Matter. And that was the year after George Floyd.
And it was like just such a heavy, heavy topic in our country at the time. And then, of course, all of the controversy within the show did not help.
And I think he felt so much pressure to just make the right decision and to stand by what was right for him at the time and you know strangers and people that were really close to him in his life were saying like I don't think you should be with her and so I think at the time he thought that was the right decision just to take a step back and yeah, not be together. How did you feel about all that? And like how was it articulated to you? It hurt because it felt like he was doing it for others and not for himself.
It felt like he didn't want to not be with me and he did want to be with me, but he just felt so much pressure from everyone to not be with me. And so even to this day, I think a lot of people have a lot of opinions on that, like what was the right decision, if he should have stood by me or not.
And I never held that over his head. I never will hold that over his head because I don't know how he felt in that situation.
And I never will understand. And I know that he thought he was making the right choice and the right decision.
And I'll stand by him, you know, forever with that. That was OK.
Yeah. As much as it hurt.
It was, yeah, one of those things where I'm like, you know what, you do need to do what's best for you in the situation. And I understand.
So you guys end. But was it like we're going to take a break, but we're still going to talk? Were you guys like completely done? Like, did you think this relationship is completely over? Like, what were the next steps after that kind of ended? So I was definitely shocked when he broke up with me only because we were very happy together, even with all of the chaos around us when it was just me and him behind closed doors.
It was amazing. It was so much fun.
And we were so happy when we decided to not let the outside noise get to us um so I don't know it was one of those things where we broke up and he said we're broken up but we did still talk like every single day I think we went like a few days without talking at first when we first broke up. And then after that, it was one of those things where we just started slowly speaking again.
And it was one of those things for me where I was like, are you happy? Like, are you happy with this decision? Like, do you think that you'll be okay moving forward without, you know, at least just seeing if this is real, like we both think it is? And yeah, we slowly just started talking again. And I think after the final episode aired and there was a big group that was mad that we weren't together.
Like there was course the people that were like you know good job yes you shouldn't be with her but then there was this group after the finale because there was a lot of speculation but no one was 100 sure if we weren't together or not until he said on the show so i think when we saw how many people were like you should just be together like what the heck I think we both had to sit down and have this conversation of like okay let's put all of this outside noise aside let's put everyone aside what do we want yeah like how do we feel and we just came to the conclusion that we really do love each other and we really do want to make this work or at least give it a chance. Like, let's give it a fair chance, even with all the craziness.
And we did. And it was great.
Even with, I mean, I think that first year was hard, but. I was going to say, like, I think I remember like seeing things on me chronically online, Reality Steve.
I'm like, how do I even know that name name but i remember like when you guys were kind of in what seems like this in between like i was gonna ask like were you talking to other people was he talking to other people like did you guys have an agreement like it's okay if we hook up with other people like what was the we never really discussed that I think like I was I was barely getting out of bed let alone dating other people like I was just so not okay and I just wanted to be with him to where dating that was just like so out of the question for me like that wasn't even a thought I had in the back of my mind and I felt like when we were talking we never discussed it but I felt like things that he said and you know us talking every day it seemed like he wasn't either but that was not the case he definitely was and that's okay because we were broken up I just wish I knew yeah because i found I found out I found out via Reality Steve. Well, he contacted my well, now she's my sister in law, but she or Reality Steve contacted my brother's girlfriend at the time.
And she told me and I was with Matt. What did he say? So he basically said that there was a girl that reached out to him saying, like, you know, Matt and me have been speaking.
He's been trying to get me to come over and hang out. And I just saw that him and Rachel were seen together in New York when he was literally just trying to hang out with me like two days prior.
And I don't think she knows. So I just want her to know.
And so I was given that information. and I was just, I was really, really upset just because I felt like it was definitely kept a secret from me.
He technically didn't lie because I never asked, but at the same time I never would have, well, maybe he did lie a little bit. Now I'm trying to think about it.
Maybe there were there were some lies in there because I was very very very upset when I found everything out and I just remember telling him that he lied to me yeah so with all of that I just remember storming out of his place and I was like don't ever talk to me again like we're done because I just found out a lot of stuff all at once and yeah I just was definitely a little bamboozled for sure so then like we go another week without talking and long story short he ends up being in Atlanta for work and I'm at my friend's apartment and the hotel they put him in is right next to my friend's apartment. Like we could throw a rock at it, you know.
And yeah, I think he saw my location. He saw I was like literally 100 feet from him.
And he was like, I understand you probably don't ever want to talk to me again, but can we meet just so I can apologize and just, you know, share my side of things. And I said, yes.
And we sat in my car. I wouldn't let him come up to her apartment.
Classic. So I met him downstairs and we sat in my car and talked for like six hours, just sitting in the parking garage.
And, you know, he explained everything. I heard him out.
And it was just one of those things where he was like just give me a chance I'm sorry and I do love you and I do want to be with you and I'm done you know playing these games like let's give this a real shot let's get back together so I said okay I gave him the chance because I loved him. When you got back together, coming off of that, coming off of the dynamic on The Bachelor, like.
Did you have a hard time trusting him? Thousand percent. So.
I told myself, like, he has a lot to move on from with me and then I have a lot to move on from with him. So we both need to decide, like, if we really do want to be together, we need to forgive and move on.
And I think that's a lot easier said than done. I just was really insecure the first year of our relationship I think it was

everything that happened of course but also that power dynamic like him being lead of you know a dating show and me just being a contestant and yeah I felt like there was always that that just imbalance of power, but it definitely felt like he was like the star and I was just, you know, his little like groupie or something.

And it's not like anything he did. It was just I think that probably every couple that comes from the show might have a little bit of difficulty in that area of like you know you were this person that 40 women were fighting over and that everyone's obsessed with and then I'm just you know some girl that's how it felt yeah and so and then even yeah going out publicly it seemed like I told myself that the world hated me that everyone hated me but everyone loved him and so I feel like when we would go out it'd be like oh Matt James and Rachel like I don't know and I don't know if that was in my head or not but that's just how it felt yeah so I definitely felt and it was one of those things where I'm like he could get anyone he could have anyone like why is he with me and so when he do things without me, I'd be like, there's probably like someone hotter and cooler and more fun than me hitting on him right now.
And like, why is he even with me? Yeah, just really, really insecure. I felt like I had a hard time trusting him because of what was happening when we were apart.
Okay. And that girl coming to Reality Steve and everything.
I'm just like asking myself, like, are you still doing this? But I know to this day, like, and I even see this online now. He's not a cheater.
You know, he, I never actually had to worry about him cheating on me. Because technically technically if he was ever with other women, we were apart.

So I can't, you know, call him a cheater or worry about him cheating on me. Was that the only time that you guys were apart and he was with another woman or was there? Yeah.
Okay. Yeah.
So the whole, so from your understanding, the four years of your relationship, he was faithful to you. Yes.
I think I see a lot of that right now because i reposted a funny video

on tiktok of like some girl i don't know doing something to her best friend's ex-boyfriend so now everyone's thinking that there was but that was before we even broke up so so the first year was difficult but then there's three years to come that and again you can correct me if I'm wrong, but like seemed like

you guys were so happy. Every time I opened Instagram, you guys were in a new city or a

new country and you were trying different foods and you were, you know, being thrown into these

beautiful other cultures and experiences. And it just felt like you guys were on this whirlwind

together. Like how did that lifestyle of just constantly going and traveling together feel?

I think at first it was so it was so fun. Like, I couldn't believe that my life was what it was.
You know, I just went from being this normal person to going on this crazy dating show, actually falling in love, being with the guy, and then we're doing these really fun experiences that I would have never done otherwise. So it was so much fun, even through like all the insecurities and everything.
But I think for the first like two years it it was just fun dating, not really too worried about like a proposal and marriage. I mean, we definitely always had those conversations, but I don't think either of us were in a rush yet.
Like I think those first few years, it felt like a normal relationship. Yeah.
You know, when you, I think in like the real world dating for a normal relationship. It's great sometimes, but yeah, other times it's a lot.
So it was just really not, it was, I hate saying it wasn't too serious, but it was just more fun and really getting to know each other and just dating. And then I think like last year, our third year, well, I guess that was two years ago now.
Yeah. So I guess our third year of dating was when I started to just ask like, okay, so where is this going? Like what? I didn't ever want a timeline of things.
I never wanted to know like when a proposal was coming. I think like some girls these days, like they want to know when it's coming.
They want to pick the ring out. They want to pick their outfit out.
And I always told him like, I don't want to know anything. I want to be so shocked, so surprised.
But I do want to know that that's where your head's

at and that we're on the same page. So.
And what would he say? He seemed like he was on the same page. Like, that's why it's.
Try not to cry. It's okay.
It was like. Just confusing to look back on now because when we would talk about things,

he always seemed like he was on the same page privately and publicly. Um, you know, whether we were doing interviews or whether he was replying to people in comments, um, like talking about getting married and everything like that.
So yeah, I guess it's just hard to think about. It's just one of those things that you replay a lot over and over again.
Um, because the words were there and, you know, us talking about taking the next steps, all of that was fine, but you know, the actions obviously weren't there. I was going to say, like, from my understanding, obviously you spent four years together, but you never lived together.
No. So like that was another thing.
He said that he didn't want to live together until we were married. And he's a very religious man.

So I was like, that's okay.

I can do that.

But at the same time, I'm a little confused because we're still, you know, traveling together,

staying in the same hotel. And it was like we were living together.

Half of his stuff is still at my place in Georgia right now.

But he always had

an apartment in Miami or New York so we were either in New York Miami or in Atlanta and I think at the time I just didn't worry about it too much because it was fun I feel like whenever we would talk about our life we would say like we want multiple homes anyways like to be or just you know yeah a little space here and there

like a home home somewhere but it'd be fun to have to keep the apartment in Miami or keep the

apartment in New York and so I think that I was making excuses for it because it was one of those things where we were saying that that was going to be our life anyways so I guess I just didn't think too much on it. But I also think it was me trying to justify it just because I didn't want to worry like, well, is this like fear of like, you know, taking the next steps? You know, of course you don't want to admit that to yourself.
Yeah. So now, yeah, looking back on it, maybe that's is what it was.
But did you have any friends or your family be like, Rachel, how are you guys not living together yet? No, only because the religious. Yeah.
Well, it was like we basically did live together, at least in Georgia. It was like our house.
Like that's where home base was for us, I would say. Like that's where most of his stuff was.
That's obviously where all my stuff is. And whenever we weren't traveling, that's where we would be.
Okay. So it did feel like we were living together, but at the end of the day, it was my place.
I don't know. Yeah.
So it was just one of those things where looking back, probably that was probably a red flag, but I just tried to tell myself that it was okay when you say that you guys talked about engagement

do you mind sharing just like how detailed did you guys get like did you talk about how many kids

did you talk about where you what like can you share yeah um I honestly think we talked about

family and kids more than anything which is like

Thank you. I honestly think we talked about family and kids more than anything, which is like...
That sucks more than anything, I think. I think when you picture your life or you have an idea of what it's going to look like, and now I'm like, I have no idea what life looks like from here on out.
And yeah, it's sad to think about these. I'm trying not to laugh at myself, but yeah, I'm picturing these kids that are obviously no longer a thing, which kind of sounds crazy.
I'm not trying to sound like an insane person. You don't sound sound crazy.
That's yeah, that's probably like one of the saddest things about it is just picturing your life with someone and thinking like that is how your life's going to look.

And then now it's just all taken away. But yeah, we we talked about rings.
He told me a few months

ago to start, you know, saving some things, picking things out or that we should go look at some. And that was a big deal, I would say, for him to say.
That's when I was like, wow, okay, he really is like on board with this. Like that was such a green flag to me.
and I felt like the longer we were together, the more he was able to talk about it. And I think at first I could tell it was something that did scare him a lot, or it was like a really hard thing for him to talk about.
And it just seemed easier and easier as our relationship went on. So I felt like that was a good sign.
And yeah And yeah, I don't know. I just I think when he started talking about kids and picking out a ring and wedding food and where we want the wedding, like stuff like that.
I use those things to just hold on, if that makes sense. Like, I don't know if there were any any actions following those things but when you're told these things you just like want to hold on to them when you look back at those conversations do you see any like patterns or themes of like when he would engage in it like was it when you were like you know what I mean like was there any like him engaging being like I want you to be the mother

of my children like I want to have a wedding like do you did you ever see a pattern um I definitely would I'm sure I would bring it up more but it wouldn't ever be in like a pressure kind of way it would just like come naturally in a conversation but he seemed more than happy to to talk about things too and i don't know it wasn't like a pattern of i think for at the end of the day when i think about things like the words were there but the actions weren't yeah like they they weren't matching so he would say these things but then okay well what are we what are you doing to get this if that makes sense like what are we doing actively to have an engagement and plan a wedding and all of this stuff you know like you said that we can go look at look at rings, but okay, is that going to happen? You know, because it was one of those things where I was like, okay, you said that, but I'm going to see, I'm going to let him bring it back up if he meant it, you know? That's tough. Because from what I'm hearing from you two, it's like, you're again, kind of like waiting for him to engage in some capacity and it's like kind of on his terms and it's i'm like that i'm that's really hard i'm sorry because it's hard to break then that pattern of like when someone is kind of the one in control to get to just feeling like we're in a partnership and it's not me kind of like tiptoeing and seeing if you're interested like it's hard to break that cycle yeah it's just it's it's such a weird thing to begin with because at the end of the day like it's mostly men who propose yeah like it's of course different for everyone these days but everyone's like yeah she's on his timeline she's on his timeline i'm like sitting here I'm like what am I supposed to do like I don't know it's one of those things where at the end of the day he's the one that needs to get down yeah on a knee I think in a beautiful way and this is what I know we're about to get there but like just cutting to the other side of it for you is like I've been there where I felt the same exact way where I was like we he talks about the house in Westchester with me and we're like together.
But I still like nothing has happened yet. Like I can tell you now having a partner that it does feel super like 50 50 and everything with my husband like I wasn't surprised at all when oh my god his name is Matt too when Matt but like when Matt would like bring things up about future or like let's go ring shopping together like where in previous relationships I was and I think I recognized because I had never had it which I'm like hopeful for you to experience of like it was we were so in lockstep that I could have gotten down on one knee you know what I mean and like I like so I think I get what you're saying and I think a lot of women experience this where like we condition ourselves to believe like it what is his decision at the end of the day and I think unfortunately like that's not how it should be yes the gesture for him physically getting on the knee is so romantic and fun but like you should still have a say in whether it's going to happen or not and not have to wait for someone yeah to do that for you yeah and i think a lot of women are going to be sitting listening to this interview being like fuck rachel like there may be women listening to this that are realizing right now rachel like they're in the same situation as you it's like he keeps saying these things the words are there but the actions aren't yeah um i'm curious like over the course of your relationship We're talking about engagement we're talking about a wedding did matt ever express any doubts about your guys future together i think there were times in our relationship where i don't want to say he seemed scared but i think that he felt the weight of marriage really heavily on him.
And I think that's for him to discuss why he felt like that. I never knew if it was because there was something wrong with me or not wrong with me.
I keep trying to tell myself that there's nothing wrong with me, even though like, of course it feels like it sometimes. But I ask myself, like, is it me or is it him? Like, is it something that he needs to figure out? You know, is there something that scares him? Is there something that he went through growing up that, know he has this trauma now or am I just not like his perfect person um so I would just say I still don't know I think like time will tell and I think that he'll have to answer that and figure that out.
But obviously every couple like has their problems. Like no couple is perfect for you and Matt.
Like what would typically trigger an argument? We really didn't argue a lot. um when we would argue it would more so be like someone did something to piss the other person off.
And then, I don't know, it was like we both, I guess we were both pretty stubborn. So we both thought that we were in the right and that they were in the wrong.
And we just had a hard time seeing eye to eye sometimes.

I was always trying to remind him that we are on the same side and the problem is the problem.

We're arguing like this when it should be like, okay, we're a team. Here's the issue.
How can we fix this together? Um, it was either that, or it was just acting out of like in the moment, acting out of anger and not meaning things. So then it was one of those things where I was like, okay, if we're ever annoyed or irritated, let's just, you know, take a breather.
Let's not talk for a second and really try to figure out what the actual problem is, like where this anger is stemming from, and then we can discuss it. Was there someone in the relationship that would like apologize first more often? This is what's crazy is I feel like I was apologizing a lot even if I was the

one that was mad about something we would sit down and I'd be like I'm annoyed about this and

then at the end of the conversation I would be the one that would be saying sorry and I started

feeling crazy but at the end of the relationship he basically said that I have a hard time taking accountability and apologizing, and I'm sitting here, I'm like, I'm going crazy because I feel like I do say sorry a lot for things that I'm not even, like, sure what I'm saying sorry for, you know, but that's, maybe that was his argument that I wasn't understanding. I think that we just had no Rachel hard times understanding where we were each coming from.
And now I still feel crazy. You know, I'm like, I, first of all, you're not crazy.
And what you just said, one of my really close friends just went through where she was like, I'm always the one having to take accountability. And he's getting so mad at me if like like i don't own it but i'm like we but like i didn't am i like yeah why am i i didn't do anything yeah we're in this fight because you did this and somehow i'm upset and then i'm having to that's like that's not healthy that's not fair to you because when you look back why do you think you were so quick to take accountability and arguments, even if it wasn't your own problem? Because he was just so like adamant that I have a hard time like admitting I'm wrong or taking accountability.
And so when your partner is telling you those things, like you want to believe them. You want to be like, OK, if this really is like a problem I have and something that you're really upset about, then of course, like I want to try to do what I can to fix that.
But yeah, it's I don't know. I don't know if I'll ever know.
The feeling of leaving an argument and not feeling like you both won. There is no winning.
It's like, oh, God, we like you kind of said, like we came together and we saw that together. Like, how did you feel a lot of times when you would apologize? Like and then you walk away from that situation after like the 50th time, like did it start to weigh on you? I would say it didn't weigh on me in the sense that it made me angry, but it almost worried me that he was going to leave me or break up with me or that I wasn't good enough.
I think, like, when you're told that you're the one in the wrong, then you're like, okay, so what can I do to be better or be a better partner? Yeah. And now looking back on it, you have to, I have to ask myself, like, was it deserved or not? I don't't know but yeah it was one of those things where I went into the conversation irritated with him and then I leave the conversation like hoping that he's not irritated with me and that I'm sorry and I want him to not be mad at me like you start to lose your mind a little bit.
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All episodes streaming April 4th on Hulu. From what we can see online, when your relationship ended, you were in Tokyo together.
what was the state of your relationship when you were going into that trip it was great I mean we were literally talking about engagement marriage all the things on that trip um we had been together since I think it was like January 3rd I met him okay so we were in london having a great time and then we went from london to tokyo um just because we had the time and we had these like flight vouchers that were expiring um for like an international flight and japan is like my favorite country in the entire world.

So we were like, let's just do it while we can. So it was very unplanned, very last minute trip, but it was fun, exciting.
You know, everything was great. There was nothing wrong.
So, okay. So we're in Tokyo.
Everything's going fine. What happens? So it's just so hard to grasp because I still, I don't even know if like he knew it was coming.
Like, or if he, or if it was like he at the moment, I don't know. So everything was fine.
The night before we didn't have an argument, but I was feeling very overwhelmed. I was like trying so hard to find like a good dinner spot for us because the spot we ended up wanting to go to was closed or something.
So we were scrambling and I was putting so much pressure on finding a good spot because he cares. Like this is like his career, you know, like going to good food spots.
So he would do like a review if you guys got there of like food. Any anywhere we'd go if it was like literally every single meal that we would have, we were filming.
So yeah, I think I just put so much pressure on myself to find good spots if I'm the one that's finding a spot so on top of that I just started my period I felt terrible like just was having like a rough few hours I guess and I remember asking him to help me find a spot. And was like you know no like I think he was like doing something else on his phone he was like it doesn't matter where we go like we can go literally anywhere just like pick somewhere I don't he kept saying like it's not a big deal it doesn't matter but I felt like it was a big deal and that it did matter so we get to this place it wasn't what I thought it was going to be um and it was just one of those things where I'm like tired cranky emotional on my period feeling terrible overwhelmed with looking for a dinner spot for like an hour and then we get there and it was a disappointment so then I started tearing up at dinner two tears one two we're two.
We're done. Didn't allow myself to get

upset after that. I just tried to calm down.
We went home. Did he say anything? No, didn't say anything.
But in the past, if I have a little meltdown like that or if I'm feeling overwhelmed or anything he just like like lets me move through the motions, get it all out of my system. And then, you know, OK, I'm ready to talk like something like that.
So dinner, like, did you guys have like normal conversation? No, we didn't even we didn't even talk. Like we just sat there, had dinner, got into the Uber.
Wait, Rachel, why did you feel so upset about like the menu not being good? I felt like whenever we would go somewhere and it was bad that I, it was just disappointing because I think like we're on trips, it's like every meal counts, like every dinner, every, everywhere we go, it counts or it just, it's's important um because you you know only have so many meals in the day and this sounds crazy but as like a food person i'm trying to just make sure that he's getting good content for our trip and stuff because i know like it's important to him and that it's something that we'll both post about so I'm just feeling bad I guess that it was a bad spot and then um are you feeling like you're disappointing him yeah I guessing him or just, yeah. Like, I think he was just like, what is the big deal? So we finally get to the hotel and I give him a hug and he, I could just tell like he was just like, you know, not very comforting.
And I'm like, are you mad at me? And he was like, I'm just so confused. Like, why you were so upset? Like, what was that? And I explained to him, I'm like, I felt like I had let you down.
Like, I felt like that was disappointing. And I hate going to a place that isn't somewhere that like you could post about.
I feel like it's a waste. And he just was trying to tell me like, it's not that serious.
Like,

it's not that big of a deal. But then he was concerned about me getting so upset.
He was like,

that was like, there was no reason for you to get upset like that. And he found it concerning

that I got that emotional, I guess. And so then I was, and he just was trying to express to me, like, if you get emotional about little things like this, like, what is going to happen in life when something really terrible happens? Like, how are you going to be able to react to things that are actually really scary or disappointing or sad? And I think, like, I don't know, I just hurt to hear because I'm like, I probably would react to things that are terrible in a sad way.
Like, what do you mean? I don't know. I felt like I was being punished for crying.
I was just so weird. I don't know.
Still don't really know that whole situation. I just was really confused by his reaction.
And in the past, like, how does Matt usually respond when you are upset? He'll let me like he'll give me my space. Do you want space? No, no, I don't.
I like want to be comforted. But for some reason, Matt always thought that I need space.
And then'd talk about after even though I would tell him like I don't want you to like give me my space because then I feel like I'm not getting any support you know or like comfort from you um but that was just something that he thought like he just needed me to calm down and then we would talk and everything would be okay. So this happens and then is literally the next day the breakup? Yes.
So you wake up the next morning. What are the vibes? Is he tense? Are you guys acting weird? Like take me through that whole day.
Everything was fine.

Like, when we went to bed, he was saying, like, it's okay, it's okay. So I just let it go.
He let it go. It was totally fine the next day.
Okay. And I think it was one of those things where, I mean, literally a few days before, we're talking about how he feels lucky to have me as a partner and that, you know, there's just like so many qualities that he loves that I have and that, you know, we see relationships with other people where they deal with a lot and are put up with a lot of things.
And he's like, I just so nice that, you know, I just feel like very lucky that I can call you my partner. And that was so crazy to think like, that was like two days before the breakup.
Yeah. And that morning, everything was fine.
We were in good moods.

And I think it was one of those things where it was just a little,

maybe a little argument, open up a can of worms. So we were on the way to get some food.
And I was like scrolling through my phone, showing a bunch of videos I guess I was bothering him I was annoying him and he he didn't snap at me but he basically was like okay kind of snapped at me to where I got mad at him because I was like you you know, even if I'm annoying you, like, don't treat me like that. And so then it seemed like we were both kind of like mad at each other or annoyed with each other.
So when we got to this place, it was just this big market with a bunch of different food and everything.

So we get there and I just walk off and go do my own thing for a second.

I'm picking up like chopsticks and things for my friends.

And he's going to find this like matcha spot that he was really excited to try.

So we kind of just get there and split up for a little bit, which wasn't, you know, normal.

Like usually we would be doing these things together. And how do you feel in that moment? Like, are you, do you have a pit in your stomach? Are you like some things off? No, I just was like, I didn't think anything serious, like too much of it.
I really didn't. I just was annoyed with him.
That's all. Like I was annoyed with him and he was annoyed with me.
Like it really didn't even seem like that big of a deal. It was just one of those things where you're just like, you know, at that point we had been together nonstop for like three weeks.
And I think like you just get annoyed with each other about little things. And I think that's where we were.
We were just like irritated with one another with little things, but I didn't think anything of it. It just, it was what it was.
And then we had some food, we got back in the car and I just was being really quiet. And he was like, you know, can I ask like why you're being so quiet? And I was like, I'm just, I feel like you're irritated with me right now.
And I don't really like want to say anything if I don't have to say anything because I just don't want to bug you. Like, I just don't really want to chat right now.
There's nothing I have to say because I just want to try and like give you your space because I feel like you're annoyed with me right now. And that is just like what opened up everything and we had gotten into an argument right then and there like walking in the street we skipped lunch we went back to the hotel and just ended up having like a bigger conversation I think that's what I was saying like can of worms where it wasn't a big deal we were just a little irritated with one another but then it was like okay now that we're back here again where like you're annoyed with me i'm annoyed with you i feel like you're in the wrong you feel like i'm in the wrong um he really just just kind of let out everything that I guess he had been feeling for a while I don't know can you share some of that yeah I mean he just he said that at the end of the day there were just qualities about me that he worries about having in a wife.
At the end of the day, there are things that we aren't compatible with. The whole accountability and saying sorry and all that was really the main thing.
and yeah it was just

one of those things where he, I think just had this realization that I should want to propose to you by this time. Like at this point in our relationship, I should be wanting those things.
And I should be ready for that, but I'm not still. I still don't feel like we're ready, or I don't feel like I'm ready.
I don't know if I ever see myself proposing to you. I can't actually see myself married to you.
He said that, you know, maybe one day he would get there, but he doesn't feel ready now. And I told him, I said, well, I feel like after four years, you should know or you should feel ready.
And if you don't, then that's not a good thing. We probably shouldn't be together if you don't feel like that after four years, because you know me better than anyone.
I know you better than anyone. So you should know by now if you see this for the long haul or not and it was just one of those things where it was like do you want to make this work like do you think that it's me or is it something with you like are you scared or is it really me like is is your perfect person somewhere out there you know is it not me and yeah he came to the conclusion that he didn't think it was me and that he um he said like he just didn't want me to end up resenting him

by wasting more of my time if it wouldn't happen.

And yeah, he just said, you know,

you're beautiful, smart, and funny,

and you'll find someone, you'll find a guy

that will love you for you. But yeah, he just didn't think that it was him but it was just really um it's just a lot to hear at once because a few days before you know I'm hearing the opposite in that moment r Rachel were you like vocalizing like anything in terms of like why have you why have you been so vocal like I've seen him on podcasts and he's commented in random like fan accounts being like engagements coming soon like he's been overly vocal more than you about like telling the world like oh it's coming like it's coming which like is a little odd I'm not gonna lie like in my opinion I was like like how much he was speaking about it and yet like now what you're sharing for him to just like quickly be like never mind like in that moment where you're like then why have you been saying this why did two days ago you say I was like the perfect partner with you I think because he I think it's because he did love me or does really love me and I think he wanted it to work out and And like, I think he wanted to picture it.
And it was one of those things where it was like, well, it would definitely be easy to like, it just wouldn't make sense. And that was like the next steps naturally in a relationship.
And he does love me to where I think he just wanted it to work. but I guess at the end of the day, like as much as he wanted it to work and as much as he loves me, he still just doesn't think that I'm like the person for him.
And so I think maybe he was just trying to see if he could get there or convince himself that it was the right thing. But yeah, I'm at the point now where I'm like, I still don't know.
Like, I don't know if he reacted out of anger or spite or if he didn't mean it. And to be totally honest with you, if he didn't post it so publicly, like right after he broke up with me, I don't even know where we'd be right now.
Because I think when someone tells you that to your face, like, I don't think you're my person. I don't ever picture us getting married.
It's your time to walk away. Like, I can't stick around after that, even if I want to, even if it's hard for me to let go.
And, like, I love him so much and I wanted him to be my partner. But, yeah, I think when someone says it's like what else else can you do yeah you have to give it up at that point when you were hearing him say all this to you like what was going through your head um honestly I think like I was worried that he thought that for a little while like I guess in the back of my mind I always wondered if he had doubts or like yeah just had doubts about me being his his person and I only had those doubts because you know, like I said, weren't following up with his words.
So I'm like, I feel like I just want to be with someone who, like, is so excited to be with me and wants to marry me and is excited to, you know, start a life with me. And I feel like it was definitely one of those things with him where I could feel like he was nervous, but I just always told myself he was nervous because of, like, how he grew up and he didn't want to end up like his father or just didn't want to end up in a broken home

and that he took it really, really seriously,

which he would probably say the same thing,

that he just puts so much weight on it

because he never wants to do to his family

what his dad did to them.

But I also told myself that i think like sometimes that put like a hindrance on our relationship and i always wondered like is it me or is it something that, like, we need to, like, work through together?

So at the end of this conversation, is it like, okay, so we're breaking up?

It ended with him saying, you know, you're beautiful, smart, funny.

You'll find someone.

I'll never say a bad thing about you.

And, yeah, we're done. And I literally said, I literally said okay I said okay didn't say anything else I just said okay and then I got my suitcase went down to the lobby got in a car went to the airport did you have a ticket yes so I had to leave a day before okay um I was trying to make it home for a baby shower that i did not end up going to he did this right before he knew you were having to go to the airport to fly from tokyo to atlanta yes so that was yeah just i just like couldn't believe it um going to the airport I was like what the hell is happening you know yeah like were you in shock were you crying both just like pure shock so much confusion um obviously sad because of everything he just said to me very very hurtful which here's the thing he's allowed to feel like that if that which here's the thing.
He's allowed to feel like that.

If that's really how he feels, you're so allowed to feel like that.

I wouldn't want someone to propose to me and be married to me just because they felt like they have to, even though they didn't feel like they wanted to.

So at the end of the day, if that's really how he felt, then he is so valid to feel like like that and at least we figured that out before we were married or anything also doesn't take away from the fact rachel that like it seems like you were completely blindsided i mean yes i it was definitely out of nowhere i don't think he was planning on doing it i think that it was one of those things where he just came to this realization during our argument. I don't know.

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Because without a doubt, it is one of the weirder cryptic. I mean, people on the internet are like, this is going to go down in history.
It's like one of the weirdest Instagram breakup posts I've ever seen. Can you talk to me about like, where were you when you saw this post? So I had just gotten to the airport and, you know, check my bags, everything got on the flight.
Okay. And I'm in my seat.
And for some reason, my phone, I think it's because I downloaded a VPN on my phone a few years ago. And now for whatever reason it cannot connect to plain wi-fi okay it just can't i don't know why so whenever i take these long flights like i'm off the grid so um we're literally getting ready to take off and my phone blows up it's one of my best friends and it says rage with a bunch of question marks.
And as soon as I saw that, I'm like, oh my gosh, how does she know? And then she texted me again and said, I saw Matt's post, is this real life? And that's how I found out that he posted. So then literally the plane is taking off and I see his post and that's it.
I don't have any service or anything for like the next 12 hours. So I'm freaking out because, you know, just got broken up with.
And now a few hours later, it's like for the whole world to see. And I'm still like trying to process it.
Like I'm still in like total shock. So then knowing like the whole world is seeing this, I'm like, this is so crazy.
I can't even wrap my mind around this right now. And I think that's why, you know, I didn't say anything still haven't like made a statement or anything

because and I think that's why you know I didn't say anything still haven't like made a statement or anything because I'm processing this just like everyone else is like I'm a week out of this you know so how what would you say like two hours after I would say like yeah two or three hours he posted that when you read the post what went through your mind like what did you think of the post um i don't know i honestly didn't think i guess i was so freaked out about the breakup itself and then just now knowing that i'm gonna have to navigate this very publicly um that's kind of all i was thinking i wasn't even like analyzing the post like everyone else was

yeah so I guess it was kind of funny just to see what people had to say like people thought it was weird that it was a bachelor photo because we definitely like tried to remove ourselves from the show um and yeah it was interesting to see the caption only because I feel like there was no, I don't know how to explain it.

I guess it almost seemed like saying it like a prayer was the easier way to say it than to like say something like real not that no but yeah real but just something like authentic to like our actual relationship um but it's very him like i guess it didn't surprise me that he said it like that.

I guess I was just surprised that he said it at all, that he posted that.

Why do you think he posted that?

I would love to know.

I don't know.

I don't know if it was out of just him being so worked up,

if it was out of anger,

or if it was one of those things where he felt like he needed to do it to really like finally just like put a nail in the coffin but i have spoken with him since all of that and i do know that he definitely acknowledges that that was not the right decision the right decision so we're gonna get to that because i'm just thinking one was there any part of you on this 12 hour plane ride one that wanted to be like sir can i borrow your phone like were you i would have been like like just to even see like were you worried about what people were saying or no you were just still like oh no i was worried it's definitely yeah it was one of those things where maybe this ties into my insecurities from the very beginning, but I just felt like there was going to be people like celebrating and breaking up with me. I don't know.
I don't know. I definitely didn't think that or just like people just sad, just like, oh, like, so sorry for you guys, like sad to hear this, but like wishing you both the best best moving forward I didn't expect it to be this like people getting mad about the posts like that I mean I'm not gonna lie like sitting here and listening to it I know there's like different steps basically to like grieving a breakup but I can't help but be mad for you because you guys have been together for four years you've traveled many times together that man knows that your phone doesn't work on wi-fi on long flights yeah no i mean it's like when i step back and really look at everything i'm mad like yes that's fucked up Like he should not have done that to me after four years shouldn't have like he didn't even text me to give me a warning like saying like hey i'm posting this so it just hurt to know that like that's how my friends found out and my family and like my little sister and that i didn't even like get to talk to them about it or just like grieve privately for like a day you know so even like landing was just so scary just like the anxiety that came over me knowing I was like about to get service back and I didn't know what I was about to see and I just knew my phone was gonna be blown up from all my friends and my family and everything so that hurt what happened when you landed like did you get an uber home who did you go to first who did you talk to um I landed and of I did have my car at the airport so I was driving home and at this point I think the post went up like 6 a.m U.S.
time or like New York time so I think I landed at like 6 p.m so it had been like all day my friends were waiting to hear from me I got in my car and I just like did a voice memo and just let them know what happened and um yeah I just went home and you know by the time I got home it was like eight or nine o'clock so I just went straight to sleep because I was exhausted and when I'm depressed I just like completely shut down and I just sleep and I don't get out of bed. So I did that.
Did you text him? Like what the hell? You didn't text him. No, no.
I just felt like the best thing at the time was just to not talk to him and because he didn't give me the decency to like give me a heads up or even just give me a few days like it's one thing to I don't even think you should post a breakup announcement the same day you break up No. But let alone, you know, not even give me a warning that you're doing it.
So, yeah, I just went home, slept for like what felt like, you know, 48 hours. And then finally woke up to my sister coming in my room.
She has a key to my house. So she, like, let herself in and, like, woke me up and hung out with me for, like, the next few days.
And then I finally, like, told my friends I could see them and hang out with them on Saturday. It was the first time I saw some of my friends just because i just needed just to be by myself for a bit and just not talk about it or think about it i just wasn't ready to like debrief and like i think when you talk about it it just feels more real so i just wasn't ready to like accept it i guess when breakups also happen i think one of the biggest mind fucks is like you're sitting there you're laying in your bed you're so upset and the one person that you like want yeah to talk to is the person that just hurt you yep who reached out first and like yeah that was so hard I completely agree with that where it's like I'm laying in bed and I want him to comfort me but I'm but he's the one that hurt me and I'm so mad at him but I'm also still like so sad and of course like I still love him so yeah just a lot of emotions to work through and I woke up at like at one in the morning and I had a missed call from him this was I don't know't know, like four, five days after maybe in the post.
And so I called him back because I just didn't know why he was calling me. I didn't know if he was giving me a heads up about something or if he needed something or if he was just calling to talk.
I didn't know. So I called him back just to see what he wanted.
And he just asked how I was doing, which I'm like, how do you think I'm doing? Like what? And then, yeah, I confronted him about the post. He said, like, you know, that really sucked.
And that's when he was like yeah I fully admit that I could have handled this a lot better and he apologized and you know sometimes people when they're in a really bad state or they're really really angry or really really, really upset. You know, you make mistakes

or you don't handle things in the best way you can. But I don't think that I just, I don't want

people thinking that like he's this bad guy or that he's like not, I don't know, considerate of

my feelings or whatever. Cause he is a good guy at the end of the day, but obviously he made

Thank you. that he's like not I don't know considerate of my feelings or whatever because he is a good guy at the end of the day but obviously he made a mistake doing that but I think he knows that and I think he regrets it so yeah it's just hard because I'm like I would I probably wouldn't even be sitting here if he didn't do that yeah so it's just a lot to like process and work through.
Well, no. And I also just want to say, like, this is why social media is so confusing, because on one hand, I agree.
It's like we probably wouldn't be sitting here if you didn't post that. But also it's like.
Knowing that you are going to at one point have to speak. And I think we kind of like we're talking about that before this of like maybe it is nice to just like sit down and even though it's still so fresh like I think there's a chance you're going to look back on this interview in a year even six months and watch some of your responses and be like oh my gosh like I didn't see it then you know what I mean like everyone has that Rachel like I've literally done that in every relationship I've ever been in and so does everyone in the world like you are still in this like grieving period clearly and you're still even like understandably like the way that you're defending him I'm not saying it doesn't he doesn't warrant it it's actually just like when you're getting out of a relationship you're still kind of in the relationship relationship.
Yeah. Like that you were together for four years.
It's what been what? Two weeks, one week. Yeah.
Not even not even two weeks. Not even two weeks.
So it's like I think a lot of this is on one hand, there's the part of that me feels bad of like we're having this so fresh that like, of course, you're not going to have like all the answers or the insight or whatever but I do think hopefully this conversation is going to like alleviate you from listen bachelor nation is amazing they're also very intense and I feel like every single thing you would type would get picked apart like there was no we talked about this there wasn't going to be like a perfect instagram post or caption or comment you could leave that would like leave people feeling like they have an understanding not that they deserve it but they feel like they do because of the way that your guys relationship started so publicly yeah so i think it's this like mixed bag of emotions yeah um when you were finishing like that call with him like where did you guys leave it like what did you say we left it like it's so weird i was about to say like i just wish we could somehow be friends because he was my best friend and it hurts to not have him as my best friend anymore but that's like how we left it like we were just talking like everything was okay you know I asked him like how his last day was in Tokyo and like you know he filled me in on like what he he did. And then.
Yeah, we were just talking like, you know, everything was fine.

And he ended up falling asleep because I called him back at like 1 a.m.

because both of our jet lag was so crazy at the time.

And yeah, he ended up like falling asleep and I just hung up and that's that how long was the conversation it was like it was pretty long it was like over an hour at least did you guys talk about like are you gonna do no contact for a little bit or you no we didn't discuss that i don't even i think like that's something that we probably have to do. We haven't talked a lot.
Like he's called me every like few days just to make sure I'm okay. But I told him that he didn't need to do that.
The last time we spoke, I was like, you don't need to like call and check up on me. Like I'll be okay.
And so that was, that was that. Um, but yeah, I don't know why he's, I don't know if he's feeling bad or he just wants to see where I'm at.
I don't know. In your head right now, like if you're being really, really honest with yourself, do you think there's any chance you guys ever get back together i don't think i can which is sad um i don't think i can because

i think when someone says those things that he said you know like i don't think you're my person

i don't see us getting married i think that's when you like have to call it quits um and then

yeah just the way that he handled all of this and his posts and everything. I forgive him.
But I just don't think I can be with someone that I felt like he disrespected me at the end of the day doing that. So, yeah, it's just one of things where you like have to stand up for yourself even if you don't want to.
Like, of course, there's part of me that wishes that we could just get back together and pretend none of this ever happened. But yeah, that's not the case.
And I think as hard as it is, I think the right decision is to just stand up for myself and be on my own.

I was going to say, like, I'm so impressed by one, just like how you're handling everything, because I think. I think a lot of people listening right now, understandably, are going to like.

Dissect what you've been saying and they're going to judge certain things you've said they're going to try to analyze things you've said um i've even been trying to do it i'm like oh i have an opinion on that and that but then i'm also like it's not my life this is your life and i also again recognize like this is so fresh for you. I do just have to say in the most painful way, and I don't think the way he did it was right.
I do think you're going to look back and you are going to be so fucking grateful that he posted not how he did it, not the way he did it, but the fact that he did it and put it out there. Because I think we all can feel it when there's love and when there's history and when there's not something huge that happened of like cheating or whatever.
It's so hard not to go back. It is easier to go back than to stay away because it's your comfort.
It's the person that you love. It's the person you've cried with.
It's the person that you've envisioned having kids with and a life with and a marriage with and a wedding with and all the best things that come with life. You've pictured it with this person.
You've spoken about it with this person. So the fact that you now have to be kind of just cut off from this, I do think it will be a blessing for you, Rachel, that like you will look back and be like, I don't know anyone that maybe would have been as strong if that post didn't go up to not go back.
You know what I mean? Because like you said, you're like, I don't know if he did it in the heat of the moment. I couldn't really tell if we were really breaking up in that moment or if he was just angry.
Like you do deserve someone that without a doubt wants to be with you and wants to start a life with you and wants to build a family and all the great things. And you're right.
It doesn't make him a bad person.

But just from like another woman sitting across from you, like why I said, like, it will be interesting what you if you look back on this in six months, it's like.

There are a lot of things you're saying that.

As a girl sitting across from you, I'm like, babe, stand up. You deserve so much fucking better.
And it doesn't mean he has to be then deemed a dick. It's just like objectively you deserve so much better.
Like you annoying him or he not like all these little things that I know we're only getting like basically 1%. Understandably, you're not going to like share your whole relationship.
But like you deserve so much better and you should not have to feel like you're in doubt. You should not have to feel like you are second to him and like there's a power imbalance.
Like you shouldn't have to feel like that. And I know I don't need to like preach to you, but I just want you, I can tell it's hard right now.
No, I mean, yeah, I completely agree with everything you're saying. Like I definitely have an attachment to him right now.
I mean, how can you not when you spend, you know, every day with someone for four years straight and I do love him so much, but yeah, it's just one of those things where maybe in another universe we worked out and things were okay but it just really sucks to like step back and look at how things ended up for us it's just like heartbreaking um but yeah I just think I I do need to just stand up for myself and you know tell myself that what he did wasn't OK and that I just need to try and move on. I also think like to everyone listening and even us having this conversation right now, like I almost started crying when you were like.
Like those like children that we envisioned creating together, like no longer will exist, like devastating like it's absolutely heartbreaking but I also think when you get broken up with and you're forced to move forward I think you're going to have a lot of beautiful reflection not even on that relationship but of yourself like even just like in the past almost two weeks like has there been anything that you looked at where four years is a long time like do you think there's any part of yourself that you compromised or you lost within that relationship because when you're in a partnership you do compromise yeah I'm sure um I think that's something that with time I'll start to realize. But I think like when I have talked to my friends about it, I think that they definitely said like, it just seemed like you were always like giving 110%.
But it was difficult for him to like reciprocate it at times. Like it was like pulling teeth to try and get him to come to a wedding with me and just like little things like that and I love to think I'm this like you know like badass independent woman but I definitely would say that I like compromise my values at times because I felt like that was the right thing to do in the moment.
Um, it was definitely like, you know, he was like, not the one in charge or anything, but you know, he definitely took lead and I just wanted to support him through everything, whatever that was. And I didn't mind, you know, letting him have the spotlight, I guess, if that makes sense.
That's more wording. No, I get what you're saying.
Like, just to back you up there, like, a lot of what you've shared with me today is, like, a lot of it's been on terms it's like if it's good for Matt then you're being a supportive partner but at what point is it like what does Rachel want and like why don't you get to call some of the shots and like what would make you happy and like why are you having to beg him to do certain things and then when he ever wants to do things you're like I'm ready to go like I think that's where I can feel it every woman in America watching this is going to be like Rachel I cannot wait and I know this is so premature to even be saying but like you've said it to your friends before we've all said it to our friends when they go through a breakup and because I've lived it and you're about to live it where it's like you're gonna feel the difference when you meet a guy that is all about you and has no doubts and it doesn't take away from what you and Matt had but like you are like he said you are so beautiful and smart and interesting and you're like a great person I can already tell we just met and I'm like you. You're great.
Someone's going to be so lucky. And that is how you should feel in the relationship where it's like reciprocal, not you keeping like, wait, wait for me.
Like, wait, what about that? Like, you deserve that. Everyone deserves that.
Again, it doesn't make him a bad person, but maybe this is like the biggest blessing that needed to happen in order for you to finally find that partnership that is 50-50 where you do feel like you have a voice of value and you get to stand up for yourself in moments and be like, hey, no, I don't need to take accountability because why are we having this conversation? Because you made me upset over this. So you know what I mean? It's like little things that will come and I'm still working on it and I'm married.
You know what I mean?

So it's like it's tough, though. Yeah.
Why did you want to speak on this today? I know I've spoken a bunch, but like why did you want to speak on this today? I feel like. Well, when you reached out to me, I just really thought about it and I felt like.
it needed to have a longer conversation than just, you know, a little story or a caption or there, it was just, there was so much to it and a lot to break down. And I wanted to do this for me.
I felt like I needed to do it to get some closure with everything. And I did want to do it for, you know, anyone else who cared.
Like you said, like we did have a very public relationship and we did have a lot of people supporting us. And I know at the end of the day, like the only people who really matter in the relationship is you and the other person.
But I did just, I saw all these rumors and the speculation and the theories and all this craziness, and I just wanted to get the true story out there and just share my side of it in case anyone is going through anything similar or if they just feel lost, confused, blindsided, anything. And if anyone can take something away from this, then, you know, I'm glad I came.
But yeah, I just really wanted to do it just to help myself move on and get some closure. And I just feel like after four years and after all this craziness, something just needed to be said.
No, I really appreciate you being so open because I'm aware like if we had this interview even in like a year from now, I bet if I asked you these same exact questions, maybe 75 percent of the answers could be really different, which is the beautiful part of life and time of you just being like, you're in it right now. You're in the grieving stage and slowly more things are going to become more apparent to you and I really respect how thoughtful you're being about the way you speak about him and I think daddy gang listening like once you go through a breakup now you get to just fully focus on yourself and I know that I am excited for that yeah and I know probably feels weird a little bit because you've been in a partnership where for four years it's been like me and him me and him but now I think in a fun way

it's like taking this and knowing all the things of how he didn't make you feel good or when moments

where you felt like shit and then the good yeah and basically know like what you want next in a

partner I'm sure there's things that you're like oh I have to have that Matt had that one thing of

whether he's funny or whether it's that and you're gonna look for that but then let's be real you got a list now of things that you're like i will not put up with that in my next relationship as you should yeah as you should um is there anything else just in terms of whether it was like rumors that you wanted to just like dispel that you've read that you're like wait that's so not true that you were like should we just put an end to it i'm trying to think like i've seen so much crazy stuff i try not to look but then when i realized we were doing this i was like okay i definitely just want to see like what is being discussed and i think the only thing that made me really sad reading was people saying that he cheated or that I insinuated that he cheated because he did not cheat I don't think he ever cheated I don't think that you know at the end of the day he's at least a good enough guy to be faithful like I never worried about that and so I just don't want people thinking that he was this like unfaithful guy that, you know, broke my trust or cheated on me or anything. But it's also kind of fun to like tell myself that, you know, I can find myself again and get back to just, you know, loving me and finding my own confidence because I think it's been missing for four years.
I'm not saying that's his fault, but there was probably a lot of stuff that I needed to work through from the show that I never have. So yeah, I guess in a way I'm just excited to work on myself.
I also will say just girl advice. Don't let him keep coming back in.
I so know what you mean by you want to be friends because how can you envision a world not only not him being your friend, but like without him. I get that.
No, I know. I'm going to cry because we've all been there.
It's like it's unfathomable to be like Matt's not in my life anymore. But what I say is like from experience I feel like sometimes the person that ends the relationship has the guilt like there's guilt that and he keeps calling you to check in and unfortunately it's going to be on you to have to be like one he's moving on right but he's also checking in on you yeah it's going to prolong you being able to actually be like, OK, I have to cut ties.
And sometimes it does take no contact because it's like, how can you have someone in your life that you did everything with? You loved all of it and still be cordial while you're trying to move on. I don't I don't think that it doesn't mean you can't in a couple years like see each other out or at a bar and so be cordial and yeah but I don't think in my opinion I don't think friends at least in the very beginning yeah is gonna allow you if we're being selfish for you for a minute to move on yeah you gotta know and that's why I told him I said you know you don't have to call me and check in on me.
Like, I'll be OK. Because, yeah, I do agree.
I think that like even just hearing his voice on the phone. It's just really hard, you know, and it makes me miss him.
But I promise you the best part and everyone that's gone through this, you know what I'm talking about is like you're literally like, no, I literally can't live without him. Like, how is my life going to go on? Like, on like he's my best friend he's my everything yeah and then when you do no contact all of a sudden whether you're like at the nail salon one day or you're walking down the street or you're at a friend's birthday party or having a wine night with your girls you're gonna like smile to yourself and you're like oh my god I haven't thought of him in like weeks.

I haven't thought of him or even if it's days.

You know what I mean? Like it's slow wins.

But then all of a sudden.

You move on.

So thank you so much for coming on.

You are such a sweet person.

And I'm really, really, really sorry that this happened to you.

But like I said, like. Girl, girl, girl, we're getting back out there.

It is only the beginning.

Well, thank you for having me.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

Thank you so much. Hi, Daddy Gang.
It is your father. I am so excited that Caller Daddy has officially joined the SiriusXM family.
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