Larry Wilmore | Club Random with Bill Maher

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Speaker 1 My book is out now. It's called What This Comedian Said Will Shock You, and it's available now anywhere you get your books.

Speaker 3 Part of my career was fighting the conception that blacks couldn't be as good writers as whites. That's one of the reasons why I wanted to create TV shows.

Speaker 3 He could say the most offensive things and get away with it.

Speaker 1 You know, I believe you should be able to hit a child in the stomach or the throat.

Speaker 1 There he is. I heard a rumor you were going to be.
Are you doing? Good to see you. Right, exactly.

Speaker 3 Yeah, well, I'm in this trial right now. This guy named Trump.
I'm in the jury right now.

Speaker 1 So I was able to get away.

Speaker 1 You look hail.

Speaker 1 I'm doing good, man. How are you doing? It's,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 60s. Yeah.
I'm not talking about the decade. I'm talking about

Speaker 1 us.

Speaker 1 You know, I would feel like

Speaker 1 I think, you know, if you read the obituaries, people around our age are

Speaker 1 dying. So, like, when

Speaker 1 somebody says, How you doing? I'm like, exactly. You know, I mean, compared to, I mean, there's a lot of

Speaker 1 when you're, yeah, who did who Bill Walton. Yeah, that's crazy.
Just died yesterday, right? 70, 71. I'm 68.
Okay, so it's not, it's not like. You start seeing those ages now.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, I feel fine, but you know. He was 72.

Speaker 3 He's 72.

Speaker 1 71, I write. Bill Walton.
71? Yeah, well, whatever it was.

Speaker 1 Right, right.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 Let's just say one point more presidential election away

Speaker 1 when it comes to your life. But, you know, then people live to, you know, Mel Brooks is 112.
Right. And still funny.

Speaker 3 That's why I always felt like sad. I mean, this is going to sound weird, but I always felt sad for like Prince Charles

Speaker 3 or King Charles because it's like...

Speaker 3 His mother, first of all, lived for forever, right?

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 And that's, that's his only thing he's waiting on in his life.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 3 I mean, her father like died in his 50s or something. He had like lung cancer or something like that.
He's thinking, if I look at the family tree, I don't have much longer. And then he gets cancer.

Speaker 3 So you think he'd get, you know, a little bit of sympathy. But then Kate gets cancer.
So he's like, I can't go ahead here.

Speaker 1 I know. What's your genetics like? Do your parents live pretty good?

Speaker 3 It's pretty good. My mom's father, he lived into his 90s.
He's like that old school southern kind of black man. Yeah.
Right. He's from Arkansas.
My father's side is more problematic.

Speaker 3 His dad died when he was 39,

Speaker 3 so he died of a brain hemorrhage, though.

Speaker 3 Oh, so my dad, it's kind of like that Mickey Mantle thing, but he didn't have the destructive thing where Mickey Mantle's father, you know, died when he was young or something. So Mickey.

Speaker 1 Hodgkin's disease.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And one of the reasons.

Speaker 1 Mickey always thought he was going to die.

Speaker 3 He always thought he was going to die.

Speaker 1 And then he drank a lot and made himself. Yes, exactly.
He actually lived longer than he should have. He did.
He probably would have lived to 100. And he got like a liver transplant.

Speaker 3 He really fucked himself.

Speaker 1 He really did.

Speaker 3 He brought that upon himself.

Speaker 1 You wonder, I mean, that's the mystery of life. Like,

Speaker 1 who could be, yes, he probably had a rough childhood in Oklahoma, but once he got out of Oklahoma,

Speaker 1 how could it be better in the 1950s and 60s than to be the blonde,

Speaker 1 good-looking farm kid from Oklahoma who comes to the big city

Speaker 1 is the star. And like, I'm sure back then when chicks didn't put out

Speaker 1 as they did he's not oh not as much yeah in the 50s no but for somebody like mickey mantle for him that's what i'm saying right i think they made exceptions oh a thousand percent i'm just saying less in less per percentages but yes uh probably any one of them could have been uh persuaded by the right person because that is the thing about women that i think is right under talked about like they do have they're generally of course much more circumspect about giving up sexuality than we are we we'd have no scruples okay

Speaker 1 they they have much more and it's just their nature it's biology you want to protect you know they're being invaded you want to make sure the person invading you is a little you know you of course

Speaker 1 we don't give a shit

Speaker 1 right

Speaker 1 because we'd withdraw but but uh I feel like even back when it was much more dangerous to be a woman, they still,

Speaker 1 like, there's certain guys which they can't help themselves. No,

Speaker 3 guys had a good run. They had a really like people talk about me too.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I look at it like this. You motherfuckers had a good run, or we motherfuckers, we had a really good run in terms of being able to do whatever the fuck they wanted.

Speaker 1 Don't let me in there. No.

Speaker 1 Or you

Speaker 1 or you, Brock. No, no, just say, it wasn't my life.
Every guy is certain.

Speaker 1 After the Me Too Era, which, of course, I think was a great development and long overdue. But every guy sort of is looked at.
That's

Speaker 1 What's that? Thanks for that. Oh, yeah.
Do you have what you want? Oh, yeah. This is perfect.

Speaker 1 But every guy is sort of looked on as, like, well, you probably did something. And right, exactly.
You know, I did things I wasn't proud of, but they were CAD things.

Speaker 1 They weren't me too kind of things. You know, what is

Speaker 1 okay.

Speaker 3 You know, I mean, like in bars. Here's the thing.
People aren't going to like this, but when we were coming up in bars, people felt up other people as a thing.

Speaker 1 No, I'm serious, Bill. This sounds horrible.
But But I'm not wrong. I mean, you are wrong.

Speaker 1 People did that. In fact, people would brag about it, you know.
And in fact, they used to have it in movies.

Speaker 3 Hey, man, did you get any titty?

Speaker 1 You know, did you feel that, you know, or whatever.

Speaker 3 It was a thing for a guy to cop a feel. That was the term, right? Cop and feel.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 being a woman then. I'm not saying that's the right thing.
No, we're not at all. But being a woman then was like being a stripper now.
Yeah. Like in the strip club.
Right. Where got them.

Speaker 1 I just think they can touch you.

Speaker 1 And in the strip club, you know, I mean, I personally think that that is what ruined strip clubs. And I think once they went from something you looked at but couldn't touch, it was a,

Speaker 1 you know, stripping is an ancient art form that goes back 3,000 years. There's even a fancy word for it.
Ecticeist is a stripper.

Speaker 1 Ecticeist?

Speaker 3 Yes. Ectice.
That sounds like one of those words from a sketch like the Marx Brothers.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 To an ecticeist, and I know it's going to be good.

Speaker 1 If I see us.

Speaker 1 Right. Or I'm going to say, I missed it.

Speaker 1 It's must be my lucky day.

Speaker 1 Ectice,

Speaker 1 yes. It's Greek, I think.

Speaker 3 It sounds Greek. Well, it's kind of come full circle now.
Now, like, sometimes you look at the movies of those burlesque clubs, you know, where they'd have the tassels on the...

Speaker 3 on the breast going around like that. And sometimes you'd see women in those audiences and that type of thing.
Cause like you said, you know, it was, it was a show.

Speaker 3 But now strip strip clubs, men and women go together again.

Speaker 3 It's more corporate now, too.

Speaker 1 It's more all about the dumb nose.

Speaker 1 It has evolved. It's more like an after hours club.
Exactly. And it's kind of changing.

Speaker 1 The one in Miami, 11, kind of combined. I think they were at the forefront of that, of kind of combining the strip club with the nightclub.

Speaker 1 Also, rappers break. their records there.
Exactly. And then clubs like 11, I think 50 Cent played there last New Year's Eve.

Speaker 3 Atlanta has a lot of clubs now.

Speaker 1 He may have been late for the New Year's Eve show, which I thought was very funny. It's like the one thing.
He collares. Right.

Speaker 1 Excuse me, 50, if you didn't, but I think I read that. Maybe it was somebody.

Speaker 3 It's the one time you don't want to be late.

Speaker 1 Come on. What I missed.
Where is everybody?

Speaker 1 I just thought that was. That's hilarious.
It is.

Speaker 1 If it didn't happen, it should happen in a script.

Speaker 3 That's very funny.

Speaker 1 Look, I'm writing your whole next show for you. I love that.

Speaker 3 Thank you.

Speaker 1 Given your character name,

Speaker 1 he writes a check.

Speaker 1 I'm so glad you came by.

Speaker 3 Yeah, we're going to see. I'm going to see you next week.
We're doing the book event. Congrats on your book event.

Speaker 1 Hit number one. Hit number one today.
How awesome is that? Thank you. Do I have it here? Damn.
Oh, I guess we have a commercial. No.
I want it always. But that's great, man.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you know what?

Speaker 1 It's grueling selling a book. I really got a great respect for,

Speaker 1 I mean, I just got back from New York and did eight shows in two days. Yeah.
And I'm signing, you sign a thousand books.

Speaker 3 And you're kind of giving the same type of thing all the time.

Speaker 1 Well, I try to variate. I try to vary it.
Yeah,

Speaker 1 certainly if they're asking you directly about the book. That is true.
Yeah, it's grueling. It's absolutely grueling.

Speaker 1 And I have really a new respect for the people who make their living doing this because this is not really, you know, this isn't something I didn't have to do or need the money to do.

Speaker 1 Lots of people write books. That's their living.
Exactly. So they got to sell it.

Speaker 1 Me, it was just, you know.

Speaker 3 And many of them aren't celebrities, too. You know, they're

Speaker 3 pounding the pavement out there.

Speaker 1 Pounding. Yeah.
Michael Moore told me for one of his books, he did a 60-city tour. 60-city tour.
That's a lot.

Speaker 1 That's a lot. I went to New York for two days.
I was rung out. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I did a book tour. I wrote one, 2009, I think it was.
And we were at the book festival in Miami, and I was there with John Hodgman, and there was a guy who was supposed to interview us.

Speaker 3 And we were just riffing backstage. We're like, we don't really need you.

Speaker 1 And we just interviewed each other on stage.

Speaker 3 It was so hilarious. We didn't even talk about our books, you know.

Speaker 1 But thank you for doing this. Of course.
Really appreciate it. It's my pleasure.
He sent me a list of like 20 people, and I circled about three of them, but you were one of them. I appreciate that.

Speaker 1 Can I embarrass you for a quick second? Please do.

Speaker 3 I will because I have to give people their props. You know, when my show went away, you emailed me.
I don't forget stuff like this.

Speaker 3 You didn't have to to do it. You did it directly.
You didn't do it through people. You said, hey, man, you know,

Speaker 3 you did good. You know, if you ever want to come to my show.
I mean, you were just nice. And I don't forget shit like that.

Speaker 1 Thank you. Well, no, I meant it.
I don't do it unless I mean it. I am not the slap on the back

Speaker 1 for nothing kind of guy. So when you do get a compliment from something, it means something.

Speaker 1 You know, I mean, I certainly don't have a reputation as being cuddly, even though everybody who actually knows me would say I pretty much am. But, you you know,

Speaker 1 I thought, you know, you did a better show than, I mean, God, how many shows have been in that

Speaker 1 kind of time slot?

Speaker 1 Then 90% of them. I appreciate that.
You know, and I still hear... That's partly because a lot of other authors are real.
Well, we tackle race. We're really shitty.

Speaker 3 And we tackle race head on, like when nobody was doing that. And I still hear from people at least once or twice a week.
Say, Larry, we missed your show.

Speaker 3 What they really miss is nobody's talking about those issues and doing it with comedy. You know, like, but we have to do a show like.

Speaker 1 And I'm all for that as long as we hear both

Speaker 1 sides. Right, exactly.
Because there is a large black silent majority, in my view. Yeah.
They are not as liberal as the white. I agree.
Okay. Yeah.
And

Speaker 1 I feel like

Speaker 1 I certainly personally know people,

Speaker 1 black men, who don't, they're not with AOC.

Speaker 3 It's every black family, Bill. That's what it's called.

Speaker 1 This fight going on, you mean?

Speaker 3 It's a thousand percent true because, especially multi-generational families, many, especially older blacks. I'm old enough to know, we never said liberal or conservative.

Speaker 3 We've never said those things.

Speaker 3 Blacks were mainly in the Democratic Party when I was a kid, but they used to be in the Republican Party. Of course.
You know, for different reasons, of course.

Speaker 3 But it was really about the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act in the 60s that put most of the Democratic, I mean it's most of of the blacks in the Democratic Party, but being an activist for whatever they stand for is different than having an allegiance to a party for a reason.

Speaker 1 In this book, What This Comedian Said Will Shock You, which just went to number one,

Speaker 1 there is one of the editorials I worked in there. I reworked them all, but it's the basic idea was

Speaker 1 a political party is like your lawyer.

Speaker 1 They both use the word representative. You have a representative in court and you have a representative in Congress.
And it kind of means the same thing.

Speaker 1 And that's what people make a decision on. They're not sentimental about it.
When the Republican Party was the party of emancipation,

Speaker 1 you're my lawyer. Right, exactly.
For good reason.

Speaker 1 And when it switched,

Speaker 1 Because it was the Democrats who undid Reconstruction and, you know, Andrew

Speaker 1 Johnson was a democracy.

Speaker 3 He was a motherfucker.

Speaker 1 Right. Yeah.
Lincoln was the Republican. Yeah.
Then it switched and Kennedy sent troops into the South and Hubert Humphrey introduced the first Civil Rights Act.

Speaker 1 It was the Dixiecrat Democrats who walked out of the convention in

Speaker 1 1948 just because Hubert Humphrey suggested a plank, a civil rights plank. Right.

Speaker 1 And he said famously, segregation today, segregation tomorrow.

Speaker 1 Segregation forever. That was George Wallace in 1963.
And when Kennedy sent troops into the South so they could go to school and so forth,

Speaker 1 okay, now you're my lawyer. Exactly.

Speaker 1 Now you represent me.

Speaker 3 I have a healthy outlook on this. I just view all white people as problematic.

Speaker 1 So it doesn't matter what party you're in.

Speaker 1 There's just going to be a lot of people. And I know that's a joke.
And you can make every joke in the world on that. I just want to point out that we do live in an era now

Speaker 1 where lots of stuff can't happen in reverse. Yes.
Like I can't make that joke about you.

Speaker 3 Right. Well, that's the top dog.

Speaker 1 And I don't want to,

Speaker 1 but I couldn't say what you said in reverse with blast.

Speaker 3 Sure, absolutely.

Speaker 1 And there's lots of examples I could give of that. And that's okay.
Now you ain't mad at that.

Speaker 3 I'm just saying let's... You just can't say it in public.

Speaker 1 I believe everything is in public now. What in the fucking world is not in public?

Speaker 1 But But here's the thing.

Speaker 3 That's just the top dog underdog dynamic is what I call it.

Speaker 3 Underdog gets to make fun of top dog, but top dog. Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 I ain't mad at it.

Speaker 1 But it goes beyond that. I mean, sometimes it's, I mean, you can find a lot of TikToks

Speaker 1 of young people.

Speaker 3 A lot of TikToks.

Speaker 1 Black, black women, usually women, but I guess I'm saying.

Speaker 1 I just can't deal with white people today.

Speaker 1 And again, some of that's, you know what that is, though? It's just, if, can you imagine

Speaker 1 if a white person said that in reverse though? And it's not a good thing.

Speaker 3 They just don't put it, they don't put it online, but some of them do say that.

Speaker 1 But the fact that you make a TikTok at it, but says a lot.

Speaker 3 You have permission. You have cultural permission to do it.

Speaker 1 Cultural permission. What a beautiful phrase.

Speaker 1 But that isn't a health. That is not, to be serious, is not a healthy attitude.
Well. And an unnecessary attitude.

Speaker 1 I want to know the specifics of how Whitey fucked up your day.

Speaker 1 She feels the weight of the diaspora is there in that sense. You're just going to Starbucks for fuck's sake.
I think, you know,

Speaker 1 it's just not healthy.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think there's a lot of oppression by proxy with a lot of young people, you know, and the

Speaker 3 by proxy is the generations who actually went through a lot of the heavy lifting of oppression

Speaker 3 and segregation. And so they're and look, you can have generational trauma and those types of things.

Speaker 3 It expresses itself in different ways, especially like the health of individuals and stuff like that, because certain traits are passed down. Sure.

Speaker 3 And as well as habits, because sometimes culturally you can

Speaker 3 stop,

Speaker 3 you can be the intervention on bad legacies and that types of things. Of course, education and that type of thing.

Speaker 3 But I think a lot, and I know this is old man yelling at the clouds type of thing, you know, for me, but a lot of it, I believe, is that, is suffering by extension.

Speaker 3 Like a lot of sometimes protests, like when I see protests by proxy, I feel that way as opposed to protests when you have skin in the game.

Speaker 1 Right. You know,

Speaker 3 where it's like, you don't have skin in the game, so you can say whatever the fuck you want.

Speaker 1 If you don't have skin in the game, you know, you're going to act a little differently when it comes to this. And that's why.
Things will be in perspective, Bill, a lot of people. That's why.

Speaker 1 It was dumb for them to compare the Vietnam protests in the 60s. Those kids did have skin in the game.
That's correct. They did not

Speaker 1 get drafted and go to Vietnam. Exactly.
It was a lot different.

Speaker 3 That's exactly right. You know what? Part of me, too,

Speaker 3 I feel the civil rights movement.

Speaker 3 I'm upset that the civil rights movement and the extension of it became a political football.

Speaker 1 That really...

Speaker 3 hurts me because to me it was never a political movement nor should it have ever been it was more like a human movement how could it not become political though i don't know but to me because it involved needed to involve government.

Speaker 1 And government.

Speaker 3 But both sides came together to pass those bills. You know, if you look at what Lyndon Johnson did, he brought the right and the left together to pass those landmark bills.

Speaker 3 He didn't do it at one side.

Speaker 1 Okay, but many people, I'm sure, voted against them. Absolutely.

Speaker 3 Had enough voted for it, which is extraordinary.

Speaker 1 But that still requires politics to actually, you know, Lyndon Johnson, the great picture of him where he's leaning over to that guy. You know, that picture I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 Sure, I was just at the library.

Speaker 1 That one picture shows that's how government is done sad though is to say right you know he was you vote for my bill right my friend or let me tell you there may be trouble in your district

Speaker 1 you think well whatever it's like a generic southern southerner but you know well here's what i mean let me be a little bit clear i shouldn't say politics like it's not a movement of the left No.

Speaker 1 That's what I mean.

Speaker 3 No. And it's not a movement of the right.
To me, it's a humanist movement. That's what I mean.
But I think it was hijacked by the left.

Speaker 3 And I think a a lot of the reasons why was because I think the Vietnam movement, it kind of rode its coattails, you know, of the civil rights.

Speaker 1 That's how I'm saying it. I mean, everything.

Speaker 3 It kind of got blended together, which that was certainly a movement of the left.

Speaker 1 I feel like all of the flow of our history, of any history, is just...

Speaker 1 Backlash to backlash. Like something causes something.
So like there was the original sin of slavery and then we had fought the war and so now they hate the

Speaker 1 North and now the Republicans and the Democrats,

Speaker 1 And then the Democrats came to be the champions before when the Republicans were more the champions of the African-American. And it just causes,

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 the Republicans, after they lost

Speaker 1 that constituency,

Speaker 1 they went the other way.

Speaker 1 Reagan opened his campaign in 1980 in Philadelphia, Mississippi, and that was a deliberate. I mean, Philadelphia was.
It wasn't lost on people, huh? It was not lost on people.

Speaker 1 It was a place where there was a racial atrocity, and he was winking at it. And he was saying, you know,

Speaker 1 not overtly, but racists, the people who are still racist, because certainly in 1980, we were still in, I would say, the racist era. I guess we will always be to a degree.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, but in much more.

Speaker 1 And he was saying to them, you're welcome in this party because it's obvious by now,

Speaker 1 this is 16 years after JFK,

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 this is where the lines are drawn now in America.

Speaker 1 I remember reading a quote from a guy, and I cannot say the quote, so maybe I'll just point to you.

Speaker 1 But,

Speaker 1 okay, so this is some guy, it was

Speaker 1 some poor guy in Louisiana, white guy in Louisiana. And this was his summation of politics.

Speaker 1 The Republicans are for the rich. The Democrats are for the niggers.
Who's for me? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 That was, I thought it was like a haiku

Speaker 1 of poor.

Speaker 1 Well, Bill, here's the other thing.

Speaker 3 That was not. Here's the thing a lot of people don't realize.

Speaker 1 That wasn't controversial language for people

Speaker 1 back in the day. I believe I read it in the newspaper.

Speaker 3 I remember Johnny Carson actually said that when Richard Pryor was on, you know, because he was saying, you don't use the word nigger anymore.

Speaker 1 Like, he was saying that. And Richard Pryor said, nigga, why are you using it?

Speaker 1 Johnny Carson. They did a whole sketch on SNL

Speaker 1 in 1975.

Speaker 1 I mean, it was just,

Speaker 1 I just think people were more mature then and they could

Speaker 1 have been the context of, okay, we're using this word, but we're not using it

Speaker 1 to be derogatory. And very often, in fact, we're using it to

Speaker 1 in the cause of satirizing race. Exactly.
John Lennon had a song. I remember.

Speaker 3 I'm a big Beatles fan, by the way, too.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 1 good. There you go.
You must be if you know that shitty song and shitty record.

Speaker 3 It's not a good title.

Speaker 1 It's not a good record. It's called Sometime in New York City.
Absolutely. And John had moved to New York.

Speaker 3 Yeah, he was drunk on Yoko.

Speaker 1 He was.

Speaker 3 During that time, remember, that's why he needed that long fucking weekend with May Lee or whoever she was.

Speaker 1 English, I could bust you for racism on that one.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's right. Larry, they're all called May Lee.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we too low. It's the journey.
We love you long terry.

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Speaker 1 How about that?

Speaker 1 Oh, that's awesome. That's Buddy Miles.
That's amazing.

Speaker 1 It was in an album I had when I was like 13.

Speaker 3 Yes, albums like when you hear that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because they gave you a poster. Exactly.
And then you can, and then you can, like,

Speaker 1 look at that. Yeah, I love that.
That's so cool. You can see the creases how it was in that album.
Yeah, that's awesome. I know.
I love that. Anyway, so when John,

Speaker 1 yeah, they moved to New York after the Beatles broke up. That's the Dakota, the place where he was unfortunately shot.

Speaker 3 Under investigation by Nixon at the time.

Speaker 1 Yes, and they were

Speaker 1 trying to throw him out of Nixon was trying to throw him out of the country.

Speaker 1 He got past that and loved New York. He could walk around.
And, you know, they lived the Dakota, 72nd and Central Park West.

Speaker 1 And, you know, the guy who imagines no possessions,

Speaker 1 Elvis Costello

Speaker 1 busted him on a song called The Other Side of Summer.

Speaker 1 Was there a millionaire who said imagine no possessions?

Speaker 1 And yeah, they had one floor just with shit in it. They bought a whole floor of the Dakota.

Speaker 3 There's a lot of excess. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, it doesn't mean I don't love them.
Right. But like a lot of contradictions with Lennon.

Speaker 1 Stars are just not like us.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 when they do dumb things, like so.

Speaker 3 And rock stars get away with the most.

Speaker 1 Well, of course.

Speaker 3 They get away with the best.

Speaker 1 And look, I think they were a very sincere couple. Yeah.
But it does make me laugh that, like, okay,

Speaker 1 I'm at the end of my rope to my marriage

Speaker 1 to this Asian woman. I'm going to leave with another

Speaker 1 Asian woman who's our secretary.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's like, talk about bringing your troubles with you.

Speaker 3 No, Yoko version 2.

Speaker 1 I mean, just be impressed. You know, obviously you need something different, man.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 You know what was interesting going to the Beatles?

Speaker 3 People say that the real love affair, the real love story was John and Paul.

Speaker 1 I say that.

Speaker 3 It was John and Paul.

Speaker 1 I say that often

Speaker 1 with whoever will listen. And

Speaker 1 I have this running argument going with someone. I won't say no, but he's a very close friend.
And I say, have you seen? It's an eight-hour movie. Yeah.

Speaker 1 The whole movie, we're talking about the Get Back movie.

Speaker 1 That's the Let It Be movie that they were making in 1969. That's true.

Speaker 3 Which was supposed to be just a filler for a TV show, actually.

Speaker 1 No, they wanted to make a movie, and they had grand ideas about a big finale that they were going to film at the pyramid. The documentary part was the filler for the concert.

Speaker 3 That's what it was going to be a live concert. And then they were just going to show the documentation.

Speaker 1 I know, but they talked about being on an amphitheater in Greece.

Speaker 1 And then they wound up going to the roof. That's what I love about Star.

Speaker 1 Awesome, yeah. Like Ringo's like, I'm not going to some stupid ambassador.
I'm going to say that amphitheater, and they were going to do it on a boat and all this shit.

Speaker 1 And then they just go up on the roof. You've got to love a garage band.

Speaker 1 The greatest garage band in the world. That's the best, yeah.
That's the best. But like throughout the whole movie, he never even looks at you.

Speaker 1 It's just like a potted plant. And he and Paul are making eye contact the whole time, making each other laugh.

Speaker 1 It is a love affair. You can see it on camera.

Speaker 3 Complete.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I just don't understand why I have to even have this argument with people. No, they hated each other.
No, absolutely.

Speaker 3 Look,

Speaker 1 it's like you can lie with your mouth and lie in

Speaker 1 writing.

Speaker 1 But you cannot lie in pictures of your face.

Speaker 1 This is what the tabloids do best. They get pictures of people and the pictures never lie.

Speaker 1 If you're having a good time in the relationship, they're looking at each other, they're making eye contact, they're smiling, they're laughing. And then there's those.

Speaker 3 Well, even the, I think what really when the beatles hit you know people you know they were kind of androgynous i guess you could say you know using words now they people weren't really using that then yes but it was like

Speaker 3 this is what the term that i use with my daughter i said it was really just good old-fashioned man-oh-man love

Speaker 3 right you know where the love between men it's a bond that and i don't mean in a homosexual way i mean but men have a certain type of love of each other that where they really want to be around each other because they shared the same interests, which in that case is music making.

Speaker 3 Wait a second.

Speaker 1 You're not in a homosexual?

Speaker 1 Larry, I was going to pour you another drink.

Speaker 1 Well, it just has to be, is what I'm saying. No, I feel like an asshole.

Speaker 1 And I was roofing you and everything.

Speaker 3 Well, apparently, John was bisexual, too.

Speaker 1 No. Well, there's that one.

Speaker 3 He took that trip with Brian Epstein.

Speaker 1 He took a trip with him.

Speaker 3 I was saying Brian had a crush on him.

Speaker 1 Brian was gay. We all know that.

Speaker 1 But that doesn't mean they fucked on that trip. But you're right.

Speaker 1 I put it at a 50-50. I don't think it's impossible because

Speaker 1 it's just

Speaker 1 it's weird to me because I would never do that. Like, I would never like, oh, you know what? I just think I'll see what it feels like to be in a man's ass all day.

Speaker 1 Not only do I, it does it not cross my mind. If it does, it upsets me.
I don't want to do that. That doesn't mean I don't love gay people, but I'm not one of them.

Speaker 1 And so I don't get the, yeah, I'll give it a try. It's just not something I would, I feel that way about.
I feel strongly about it.

Speaker 3 If John was bisexual or didn't know he was bisexual, then maybe being with Brian kind of awakened that side of him.

Speaker 3 So it wasn't a straight guy doing that, but it was somebody who maybe had the inclination to do it.

Speaker 1 Let's see. Let's see if we can see if we can

Speaker 1 introduce Yoko into this scenario where he's really secretly gay because she was a mother.

Speaker 3 Not secretly gay, bisexual.

Speaker 1 Okay, right, bisexual. Right, it was different.

Speaker 1 Very different. Right.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I could fit that in because she was a.

Speaker 1 I think Albert Albert Goldman was one who brilliantly pointed out, he went from a stern

Speaker 1 mother figure with his aunt Mimi

Speaker 1 to another stern mother figure, some would say,

Speaker 1 Yoko.

Speaker 3 And arguably, Cynthia was probably better suited for him as a mate.

Speaker 1 And called her mother. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Whenever a guy calls his wife mother,

Speaker 1 it's over. I'm so out here.

Speaker 1 So this is an Oedipal type of thing. You want to have sex with your mom.
I mean, it should, ugh. Yeah.
I mean, she calling you daddy, nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 3 And he was pretty much abandoned by, he felt he was abandoned by his mother and his father. Because that was his aunt who raised him.

Speaker 1 Well, his mother, yes, right.

Speaker 1 Even before she died, she kind of was.

Speaker 3 He was like, I'm not trying to raise the son right now.

Speaker 1 I mean, his father just plain up got a cab. Oh, he was a dick.
Yeah, I mean, okay, so that happens a lot. Yeah.
I mean, we don't condone it, but that's.

Speaker 1 No, that's another thing. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 He probably realized how fucked up the world was like with those types of things.

Speaker 3 Like men with just a fucking abandoned family back then.

Speaker 1 Totally. That's crazy.
I mean, not that that still doesn't go on.

Speaker 3 Right, but I mean, it was ruthless in those days. That's why you have all those orphan stories and that type of thing.

Speaker 1 What do you let me ask you this? What do you think of like the Larry Elder school? There is a school

Speaker 1 with facts. Larry Elder is not an unserious person.

Speaker 3 No, no, no, I know Larry. Okay.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 And he's not the only one. And they, they're, they say they give stats about

Speaker 1 black

Speaker 1 below the poverty line.

Speaker 1 Most of the progress was made between 1940 and 1960. This is their argument against the social justice stuff, even of the Lyndon Johnson era.

Speaker 1 And one of the stats is also that like

Speaker 1 kids, black kids being born in a home with two parents,

Speaker 1 like much higher, like like 67%

Speaker 1 in 1960. And by 1995, it was, you know, like 30, 40 points lower.
Right.

Speaker 1 What do you think of that thesis? That's the... Proving.

Speaker 1 I mean, that's what conservative black...

Speaker 3 Well, I think those types of things, because... Just so you know, I went down like a conservative rabbit hole in the 90s.

Speaker 3 Like the whole 90s I spent going down this and reading up on all these people and listening to Thomas Sowell.

Speaker 3 all of it all of it right thomas sole all of these people even larry elder when he first came on and dennis prager all these people um

Speaker 3 and you know because my parents blessed me with the ability to think for myself which is why i love you too because you think right back at you right right so keeping it hundred exactly right so i take the things that i feel are to be true in my experience and i don't care who says it i don't care who says something if it's true exactly you know and i take things that i think i think you have an agenda there that you're using this evidence to prove an agenda And I make a distinction between

Speaker 3 I make a distinction.

Speaker 1 Can I have a cigar? Is that my brother's cigar? No, there's not a cigar. Do you mind if I smoke? Oh, no.
Okay. You can smoke anything you want here.
Oh, I appreciate it. But I brought it up.

Speaker 1 Why do you want to, though? What do you get out of that?

Speaker 3 I don't get it. It's a relaxation thing.
Why?

Speaker 1 It is. What's relaxing about it? It just is.
I don't know how to do it. Really? I know.
So many men are into it. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I've been smoking cigars for at least 25 years.

Speaker 1 Yeah. But you don't inhale it, of course.

Speaker 3 No, you don't inhale. inhale it.
So that's what makes it.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 3 No, you still get a buzz from cigars.

Speaker 1 You do? Yeah, you do. You get a buzz from a cigar? Absolutely, especially a real strong cigar.
Give me one.

Speaker 1 No, I'm serious. You do.

Speaker 3 People don't realize that.

Speaker 1 I don't realize that.

Speaker 3 This is a Jerry Little Slider, by the way.

Speaker 1 You'll see what I mean.

Speaker 1 Right. Well, maybe.

Speaker 1 Ladies.

Speaker 3 But I'll tell you about this.

Speaker 1 There's a guy who got away with murder. Oh, yeah.
When he was like...

Speaker 1 oh. Oh, Bill.

Speaker 3 He was crazy in those days. I mean, he really assaulted women.

Speaker 1 I mean, he really did. But

Speaker 1 I think,

Speaker 1 okay,

Speaker 3 a lot of different things can be true at the same time.

Speaker 3 So true. So let me just hit spears about this real quick.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 3 a lot of those programs did break down the black family in this way. In order to qualify for welfare, a man couldn't be in the house.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 That was insidious to me. The government said, in fact, the movie Claudine explores that with James Earl Jones and Diane Carroll.

Speaker 3 And so a lot of black families were broken up because if you were poor and destitute and you needed the money, man couldn't be in the house. So why are you going to be married?

Speaker 3 And that happened from the 60s on. So that explains a lot of the breakup.

Speaker 1 That happened from the 60s on. Correct.

Speaker 3 So, and we're talking about poor families.

Speaker 1 Okay, so let's continue down this because this is always what I'm trying to do. Right.

Speaker 1 I don't trust either side. I feel like they do.
It's not that they don't lie. They just don't give you the full story.

Speaker 3 Exactly. They have an agenda.

Speaker 1 So like now, this is great. I'm trying to.

Speaker 3 I have a word for it, by the way. I call it primo simp jurius.

Speaker 1 You're like a

Speaker 1 simp jurius.

Speaker 3 That's Latin for first Simpson jury.

Speaker 1 Okay. Yeah.
Where they clearly had an agenda.

Speaker 3 The jury is like, this black man is not going to jail.

Speaker 3 Not on our watch.

Speaker 1 He is not going to jail, you know. Right.

Speaker 3 But that's what I felt at least.

Speaker 1 And I always defended black America on that one. Oh, yeah.
I'm not mad at that. I was at like, no one's fooled that it wasn't a murder.
Right.

Speaker 1 But the fact that white America couldn't stand it got was actually

Speaker 1 so much more offensive than the murder itself. Exactly.

Speaker 3 That's exactly what it was. So anyhow, so this thing is that's partly to blame what happened in a lot of poor black communities where families were broken up like that, especially young people.

Speaker 3 Why would they get married if they're not going to have government assistance so many people didn't even get married right right so that did a lot but who passed that law that was uh that was uh the great society okay so that's their point was that the great society but there's another point here okay but there's also a a

Speaker 3 growing black middle class and black upper class that's happened where families are together and education has been the key for that education has been a tool that's always the key and it's always the key

Speaker 3 people don't talk about how much bigger the black middle class is now than it was back then most black black people live in the suburbs correct you know so so that's the other part of it so why don't we look at the successes of it too what do you think of biden's speech at moorhead

Speaker 1 me too i didn't like it i loved andrew sullivan's column as i always i love andrew fallen yes and he i thought he had it right he first of all he quoted obama speaking at the same college he got it remember

Speaker 1 like 10 years earlier yeah and it was night and day yeah obama's was all about uh you know, so many doors have been broken down. You have so many good reasons to hope and

Speaker 1 no more excuses. And

Speaker 1 it went over way better. Of course, obviously it's a different

Speaker 1 standard he's working from as a black man speaking in that college. But Biden's was just so

Speaker 1 like, I thought 2000 late.

Speaker 3 It's condescending. This is the reason.

Speaker 1 Condescending.

Speaker 3 I couldn't, one of the reasons why

Speaker 3 Algo really turned me off in 2000 when he was running against bill bradley in the primaries and i you know i'm a basketball fan so don't talk against bill bradley he's one of the classic

Speaker 1 dollar bill one of the classic

Speaker 3 fan since he was exactly right so even though i was a laker fan the knicks have always been my second team right

Speaker 3 so i'm not mad at bill bradley at all love bill bradley but al go said something like if you vote for bill bradley you're going to go back to the time when black people were like one of those type of statements you know he was trying to bill bradley's a democrat i know but he was trying to make a point because i don't know if Bill Bradley said something or whatever, but he said something like that.

Speaker 1 Bill Bradley's a big liberal. Trust me, he says something like that

Speaker 3 in that vein. And I'm like, who?

Speaker 1 Elgar, you have a lot of fucking nerve.

Speaker 3 First of all, he's the one from Tennessee.

Speaker 1 That's not half as obnoxious as when Biden told Charlemagne. Oh, yeah.
You're being black.

Speaker 1 That is such a bad attitude.

Speaker 3 So my take on this too, Bill, is that I tell people, I was born in 1961, right?

Speaker 3 And I was too young to know what was going on all the bad shit that was going on in the world. But here's what I wasn't too young to get, that we were trying to go to the moon, you know.

Speaker 3 And so I call my generation Moonshot Generation, like anything was possible. You were eight.

Speaker 1 Yeah, anything was possible. We went to the fucking moon.

Speaker 3 And so Obama was born the same year as me. He became president.
And when I, when I hosted the White House correspondence and I did Obama's last one.

Speaker 1 I remember.

Speaker 3 And I said the line that apparently, you know, got me in trouble. Whatever.
You fuck you, motherfuckers.

Speaker 3 I said, you you know when we were kids a black man couldn't even lead a be the quarterback of a football team right and you're the leader of the free world I said yo Barry you did it my nigga you did it oh I remember and I I cried when I wrote the line bill because of what it meant and to me I live in the world of aspiration not in the world of desperation, you know, because I know those things exist.

Speaker 1 I've talked about it and make jokes about it, but I always keep it in perspective of you have to, if you want to build something, you don't want to just put band-aids on things in your your life You want to also build things in your life too and you build through being inspired It's such a healthier attitude even if you're not political just to understand that it's a healthier attitude for any individual and that we as much as you know have this despicable past and somewhat despicable present, but there's despicable everywhere

Speaker 1 you still eminently live now in a society where that is possible, where anything is possible.

Speaker 3 And I like when people point out,

Speaker 3 like, I was doing something in Salt Lake City. It was a special called Larry Wilmore's Race, Religion, and Sex in Utah was the name of it.

Speaker 1 I did it at Showtime. What was it called?

Speaker 3 Larry Wilmore's Race, Religion, and Sex in Utah.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 Was the complete title. It was a special idea in Showtime.
This is when Obama was running in 2012. And people are like, and I wanted to have Mormons on the show.

Speaker 3 I just wanted to get their experience of things because Mitt Romney was running then.

Speaker 3 And I learned a lot about Mormons and how much they actually work and do things in the poor black communities and that kind of stuff too. It's really interesting.

Speaker 3 Mormons are interesting people, but people are like,

Speaker 1 but people were trying to tell me, yeah, for a lot of different reasons.

Speaker 3 Yeah, Larry, Mormons, you know, up until 1978, you know, they wouldn't allow black people in church. I'm like, you give me one institution in America that didn't have a racist expiration date.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 theirs was just in the 70s. You know, right.
Give me the Baptist church. When was their racist expiration date? The Democratic Party.

Speaker 3 Give me their racist expiration date.

Speaker 1 I I mean, that's funny. You know, they go after this

Speaker 1 premier prime minister of Italy named Giorgia Maloney.

Speaker 1 And look, she's,

Speaker 1 I don't think she's a cook at all. She's a conservative.

Speaker 1 She got elected, okay?

Speaker 1 She's not a nut.

Speaker 1 They constantly, but because they happen, because nothing is nuanced anymore. In the paper, they always talk about the second thing out of their mouth is always, well, she has fascist party roots.

Speaker 1 Right, yes, because like her grandfather, something, something, Mussolini, but she's renounced him.

Speaker 1 And I always want to say, the Democratic Party has Ku Kuk's Klan roots. Robert Bird was your speaker

Speaker 1 not that long ago, and he was in the Klan. Completely.
And again, the Dixie Crats, Strom Thurmond.

Speaker 3 He was successful in the Klan. He was the Grand Wizard.

Speaker 1 Robert Byrd.

Speaker 1 He was the Grand Wizard. I think it was the Grand Wizard.

Speaker 3 Not only in the Klan, like, he did well in the Klan.

Speaker 1 Bill, you're leaving out the most important part. He was a success.
Yeah, but you know, you know, those top brass. They don't know anything about the field.

Speaker 1 He was a bureaucrat in the clan. Exactly.
That's how you get to the top. You kiss ass and you go along and you're political, okay?

Speaker 3 So, you know, you don't have to actually burn the cross-border.

Speaker 1 But the guys in the trenches, the crosses,

Speaker 1 the sergeants, the lieutenants, they're the ones doing all the work.

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Speaker 1 Hey, I'll be at the David Copperfield Theater at the MGM Grand Hotel and Casino June 21st and 22nd in Las Vegas.

Speaker 1 The Orpheum in Minneapolis, Minnesota, July 13th, and the Riverside Theater in Milwaukee on July 14th. July 26th, the MGM Music Hall Hall at Fenway Park, Boston, Massachusetts.

Speaker 1 And July 27th, Toyota Oakdale Theater in Wallingford, Connecticut. You mentioned Utah.
It's made me think there was a, here's a woke thing that pissed me off. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay, so I'm reading, and I don't want to, I want to be,

Speaker 1 I love the New York Times today. I've been reading it since I was a child, literally a child.

Speaker 1 They've got a lot more woke. And so, you know,

Speaker 1 I do take my shots at them, but I hope they know.

Speaker 3 I've been reading it for about 45 years.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I hope they know. You know, I certainly don't stop reading them.
Okay.

Speaker 1 But some things make my eyes roll. And so I'm sorry.
I have to mention it. I don't have to mention this, and it's trivial, but it's just an example of the kind of person that is in the newsroom now.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry, but they're probably of a certain generation that thinks I'm a square, but I'm not the square, actually.

Speaker 1 So I'm reading this. It's reading about Rudy Go, Rudy.
Rudy Jobert. Rudy Gobert, you know, the, you know, do you know sport? You know.
Basketball player?

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah, from Minnesota.

Speaker 1 Yeah, now. Okay, but he was on the jazz.
Right, yes, that's right. So he gets traded to the Wolves.
They're now in the semifinals. Right.
Western Conference finals. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 and it was like the headline was like, so that when he got traded, they made a story about him like Rudy Gobert on, you know, playing defense and whatever and

Speaker 1 racism in Utah. And I thought, oh, I can't wait to get to this part.
It sounds like there's

Speaker 1 stuff. And then the question comes,

Speaker 1 what about racism in Utah? And Rudy Jobert's answer was, yeah, everybody was great to us all the time.

Speaker 1 My wife, my family, they were just great. And you can almost feel the reporter's disappointment.

Speaker 3 Like, exactly.

Speaker 1 Oh, there was no race. I mean, that's great.
There was no racism in Utah. Sure.
Do you want to take your time?

Speaker 1 And that's the thing about the younger generations that you were getting at before. They feel cheated by progress.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 You know? That's a good way to put it. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 3 Like there's something that's being missed out on. You really don't want that.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 3 You think you do, but you really don't. And granted, the other thing is, because of social media, when there are incidents, they get blown up like that's the norm, but it's not.

Speaker 3 You're not going to go in the South and there aren't separate bathrooms. You know, like that, what people are blowing up on social media was the norm everywhere at a certain point.

Speaker 3 That's the biggest change. It's not.
Now there are incidents here and there, but it feels like it's everywhere because if it's being shared, you know.

Speaker 1 I feel like racism is written about almost exclusively by people who live in places where they never actually see any.

Speaker 3 Sometimes, yeah.

Speaker 1 This town,

Speaker 1 nothing could be less cool than to be racist in 2024.

Speaker 1 This is not most of your life.

Speaker 1 But that's where we are now. Great.
I'm applauding it.

Speaker 1 But like in the places where people write, New York, LA, Washington,

Speaker 1 they don't actually see it. They're writing about an imagined racism.
Right, but they think that the deplorables are doing in the part of the country they never actually see. Right.

Speaker 1 And sometimes, and there is some of that. Right.
There is some of that still. There is a residual, but it's not, it's probably older and fading and not controlling.

Speaker 3 Like part of my career was fighting the conception that blacks couldn't be as good writers as whites.

Speaker 3 You know, so like a white writer could be on a black show, but a black writer could never be on a white show. Right.

Speaker 3 So that's one of the reasons why I wanted to create TV shows, bro. So I could open up those opportunities and prove.

Speaker 3 And you did. Yeah.
When I created the Bernie Mac show,

Speaker 3 it was a conversation of a friend of mine had. They said, Larry, how come there's no black Seinfeld? And I said, because you haven't written it yet.

Speaker 1 And then I went, oh shit, I haven't written it yet, brother.

Speaker 3 But what she meant was

Speaker 3 a black show that's considered smart and not just funny. You know, because white shows were considered, the good white shows, you know, there's a lot of drekin stuff.

Speaker 3 But a show like Seinfeld was not just funny, it was considered smart. And black shows never had that considered smart element to it.

Speaker 1 Bernie Mac was. But I broke through with that to do that.

Speaker 3 It's considered smart.

Speaker 1 I have to say,

Speaker 1 Bernie Mac

Speaker 1 was...

Speaker 1 Just a genius performer. He really was.
Like, he kind of liked the black Jack Benny to me. You know, because he was just like

Speaker 1 so under, like,

Speaker 1 the least little, and it worked so well that

Speaker 1 yeah, he was just a minimalist.

Speaker 3 Absolutely. Like, his

Speaker 1 remote. Yeah, with just a few words and a look and

Speaker 1 just.

Speaker 3 And he had one of those abilities where he could say the most offensive things and get away with it. You know, like he said, I believe you should be able to hit a child in the stomach or the throat

Speaker 1 or the throat I mean who says you should be able to hit a kid in the throat but I don't imagine you gave him many long speeches no no no no we had to

Speaker 3 he just did everything so compact no he was great and I always said Bernie this is just the script if you want to change this then do it but but we talked very much about the content of it, you know, and I just wanted to make sure we knew we if we both knew what the scene was about you can change the words because we know the scene's about right so that's how we approached it but he was so good he would do the lines too but he had such a great sense of what the scene was and that sort of thing so our conversations were very short remember him in bad santa oh yeah it's hilarious yeah oh my god

Speaker 1 really that is a a genius comedy portrayal i mean yeah bernie's memes he has memes for a reason because his face was so expressive right you know just the way he would look at something.

Speaker 1 What is it that took him so young?

Speaker 3 Sarcadocious. It was an autoimmune disease.
He actually died, I think, of pneumonia, but it was the autoimmune disease. I think he got pneumonia twice in the hospital.

Speaker 1 Why did he have an autoimmune disease?

Speaker 3 It's something it's this particular one, many black people get it for some reason, kind of like lupus and that sort of thing. It's one of those things.

Speaker 3 It's not successful anemia, and I relate to that, but it just happens to be one of those things, like

Speaker 3 certain cultures are just predisposed just from it being passed down over the years to get certain things. You know, who go figure.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, or it could also be the food.

Speaker 3 I don't know. I mean, who knows?

Speaker 3 Who knows? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, that's always what I say about all medical issues. Who knows? Right.
Not that they don't know more than they used to. They just don't know much.

Speaker 1 And so let a thousand flowers bloom. Don't cut me off from any medical theory.
I know you think some of it is crackpot. Right.

Speaker 1 But so many times we've learned that what you were doing was crackpot, and what someone thought was crackpot turned out to be not the crackpot. Right.
So let's just hear everything. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Don't stop me from hearing everything. I agree with you.
You know, I've heard you talk about this subject a lot. Yeah.
And I agree with you in the big picture because it's funny, Bill.

Speaker 3 Medicine and astronomy are the two most changing subjects that we've had forever.

Speaker 1 The earth is flat.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 the sun revolves around the earth.

Speaker 1 You are excommunicated from the church.

Speaker 1 A leech should be put on yourself to get the blood out of your system.

Speaker 1 It's like medicine and astronomy. It keeps proving itself wrong.
You don't even have to go back that far.

Speaker 1 15 years ago, they were telling us to eat trans fats. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Which now are illegal. So the thing, then that was like,

Speaker 1 I can't believe it's not butter, oleo. It was this fake, but now they found out.

Speaker 1 Fat was the enemy, but meanwhile, they were pumping us with this was a certain type of fat right that they oh again this is this century right exactly we're saying get this in you right and then went oh whoops it's so bad that we pulled it off the shelves so you turned some 20th century don't tell me i mean bill the icon of healthy food at one point was tony the tiger right

Speaker 1 it's great i mean he was speaking to kids about pumping all that sugar in your body first thing in the morning Did you see Seinfeld's pop-tart movie? Oh, yeah, on Friday. That's a fucking scream.

Speaker 3 Yeah, there's a lot of funny stuff. It's so funny.

Speaker 1 I mean, I heard these things like,

Speaker 1 what is this movie? People were like, what the fuck is this?

Speaker 1 And then it was so, I mean, it was so adeptly paced. Yeah.
You know, it just went from one-fashioned in a fun way. Very 60s.
I mean, about the 60s, but also invoked a kind of a filmmaking style.

Speaker 3 A little bit of Preston Sturges in some ways. Yes.

Speaker 3 Yeah. A little bit of that.

Speaker 1 Which they had totally revived in the 60s. And Elizabeth of Sex.

Speaker 3 Yes. And Elizabeth Sex.

Speaker 3 Preston Sturges had that kind of snappy style where you could barely rest and something funny was coming along, you know. But it was also highbrow.

Speaker 1 It was sophisticated.

Speaker 3 But he wasn't afraid to knock you in the knees.

Speaker 1 Like, what's a great Preston Sturgis movie? I'd probably.

Speaker 3 I'll tell you right now, my favorite, The Lady Eve.

Speaker 1 The Lady Eve.

Speaker 3 Watch The Lady Eve because Barbara Stanley

Speaker 3 is irresistible in it.

Speaker 1 Really?

Speaker 3 Henry Fonda is so great.

Speaker 1 Henry Fonda and Barbara Stanick.

Speaker 3 It is an amazing cast, and there's characters in it that are funny,

Speaker 3 but their love affair is so great, you know, and

Speaker 3 it's classic Preston Sturges. It's just this, this, this, that.

Speaker 1 I'm a little fuzzy. I know Barbara Stanrick.
I used to use her name in a punchline. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Was she a hottie of her day? After working, a hottie. Oh, my God.
Really? Oh, my God. Bill.

Speaker 3 Watch the Lady Eve.

Speaker 1 You'll go. You're saying I'll get a

Speaker 1 century later boner for me.

Speaker 1 Stand with a lady to never be. You have for century boners straight.

Speaker 1 I used to do a bit. I love that bit about how

Speaker 1 I can't masturbate. And it came from the truth about something that I couldn't actually

Speaker 1 be doing. Like if I saw a movie that took place in the Middle Ages,

Speaker 1 I couldn't masturbate about the serving wench because I'm not in the Middle Ages. Even if it was like a James Bond movie, I can kind of

Speaker 1 transfer that to like, oh, okay, I'm not James Bond, but

Speaker 1 I'm playing the casino.

Speaker 1 I'm playing the casino. So many rules to your masturbation.

Speaker 1 Well, there had to be a thread back to reality to this day. Like there has to be a thread back to that could actually happen.
Right.

Speaker 1 It might be a little unlikely, but the Middle Ages, that's impossible.

Speaker 3 I agree. You know, I always say this.
This is kind of on the same subject. Like when people talk about time travel, you could go back to the Middle Ages or these things.

Speaker 3 I always feel like people never factor in the smell.

Speaker 1 They never do.

Speaker 1 Well, they never do. Like, the world smelled horrible in the past, Bill.
Many horrible. Horrible.
They didn't factor.

Speaker 3 Choose any period. It smelled horrible.

Speaker 1 Seth McFarlane made a really great movie about that concept called

Speaker 1 A Million Ways to Die in the West.

Speaker 1 And that was the idea that.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Oh, it's really good.
And it's about

Speaker 1 that idea that

Speaker 1 it's easy to romanticize the past, but if you really lived in the West where a splinter could kill you,

Speaker 1 there was a million ways to die.

Speaker 1 That's these kids today.

Speaker 1 It's a great premise. These kids today,

Speaker 1 I literally said these kids today, but it's so true.

Speaker 1 they have no perspective

Speaker 1 about the time that they live in and how fortunate they actually are

Speaker 1 in almost every way. If you measure it, now if you're just feeling angst, okay, but if you actually looked shit up,

Speaker 1 read Steven Pinker on this. He's the one who was the, I feel like the covers is the best.
And, you know, we can measure this shit. We can, we know shit, for example.

Speaker 1 It was only 20 years ago where like a billion people shit in the street in the world.

Speaker 1 And we've really cut that.

Speaker 1 I know it's inside.

Speaker 3 The automobile was a green alternative to horses. Right.
It was a green alternative because of all that shit that was in the streets and the disease.

Speaker 1 Yes. And the disease and the flies and all the automobile was a green alternative.
You're right.

Speaker 1 Horse shit. Must have been

Speaker 1 a terrible thing. That's why shoe shine boys are so popular back then.
Let me get that shit off your shoes, sir. Right.
Wow. Such a big deal

Speaker 3 yeah spats remember those spats and all that stuff that was from shit you know you won't get that stuff on your shoes wow

Speaker 1 wow that's heavy

Speaker 1 the stinky yeah all i'm saying is the world was stinky and people should know this people should know how stinky the world was

Speaker 1 i tell you i don't think i've changed since i was 18

Speaker 1 with like talking to a funny guy all over it's like it just never gets old you know it's funny i've been watching i agree with you And thanks again for having me, man.

Speaker 3 It's so awesome for me, you know. But are you leaving? No, no, no.
You were talking about...

Speaker 1 No, I'll stay as long as I can.

Speaker 3 But you were talking about Seinfeld.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I don't like all the

Speaker 3 re-evaluation of Jerry, you know, because Jerry's a fucking genius. Fucking genius who a lot of comedians owe their...
careers to somebody like Jerry Seinfeld.

Speaker 3 He thought of comedy differently than anybody when we hit. We know how much of a star.
He was a star on comedy clubs way before people knew who he was.

Speaker 1 I was there at the beginning. No, right, way before people knew who he was.
I know, but I had the privilege of being one of the people who like, you know, saw him every night. Yes.

Speaker 1 Because that was our life back then. He was a little ahead of me, like, yes.
Years-wise, but like I was, when I first, I told this before, but when I auditioned at the comic,

Speaker 1 I auditioned at

Speaker 1 three clubs,

Speaker 1 Catch a Rising Star, The Improv, and The Comic Strip. The person who passed me, you know, the MC decided you could hang out as a

Speaker 1 you could be a neophyte comic, was Jerry at the comic strip and Larry at the improv. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 3 Jerry did a joke back then, still one of my all-time favorite jokes. This is like 1978, where he said, I was just at the Smithsonian, you know, and I saw that.
Do you know this joke? No.

Speaker 3 And I'm doing a terrible joke talking about.

Speaker 3 They had Neil Armstrong's toothbrush.

Speaker 1 I do remember that. And it said unloan to the Smithsonian.

Speaker 1 I do remember this.

Speaker 3 And I'm like, unloan.

Speaker 1 I'm like, Neil, give them the toothbrush.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, that is hilarious. I mean, who thinks of that?

Speaker 3 You know?

Speaker 1 Neil, give them the toothbrush. Yeah.

Speaker 3 That's one of the best punchlines. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Oh, no.

Speaker 3 Because it's not traditional. It's all point of view, you know.
But anyhow, my point was like, I don't like that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 but I also love when Jerry said the thing that makes him the most happy is hanging with another comic and just shooting the shit.

Speaker 1 And he's right because there's a bond there.

Speaker 3 And this is the back to the John and Paul thing.

Speaker 1 There's a fucking bond there that we love.

Speaker 3 It is, you know, of the deconstruction shit, no, talking shit about stuff. Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 I mean, I would look, I'm not going to lie, it is not above in my pantheon, like a beautiful woman.

Speaker 1 Sorry, we're not crazy here,

Speaker 1 But take that

Speaker 1 electric element out of it that, you know,

Speaker 1 this is completely cerebral, whereas the other thing can be cerebral, cerebral, and serves both purposes. And also sexy at the same time.

Speaker 1 I mean, you can't compete with that. Nothing can.
There's nothing in the world like a beautiful woman is also very smart. Right.
You know, I mean, but

Speaker 1 you can't get that every night.

Speaker 1 So this is just a great.

Speaker 1 no, this is, yeah, it's just,

Speaker 1 I've heard, I think we're thinking of the same interview, I think he did with Barry Weiss the other day. Oh, that was brilliant.
It was so great. It was brilliant.

Speaker 3 And to see Jerry

Speaker 3 unguarded like that. Emotionally.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I've never seen him.

Speaker 3 I was

Speaker 1 amazed because

Speaker 1 he is the, you know, it's him and Leno who did that. You used to do that character, Iron J.
Yes. You know, and I just,

Speaker 1 to this day, I call him Iron Jay. Hey, Iron Jay, because he really is Iron.
That's hilarious. And Jerry's kind of the same way.
I mean, they're very bulletproof.

Speaker 3 People have forgotten about Jay, too, by the way. That's another one.

Speaker 3 They've forgotten the brilliance of Jay Leno.

Speaker 1 I haven't. Yeah.

Speaker 1 They've told me I talk about him too much on this podcast. Jay, and also, I love him.

Speaker 3 Jay doesn't get credit.

Speaker 1 You know, me, I give people props.

Speaker 3 My brother wrote for Jay on his show for a while.

Speaker 1 Oh, really?

Speaker 3 And he had to have a kidney release. And man, Jay was first to help him out and try to find somebody.

Speaker 3 Mike Overt, too, CAA. You know, he held my brother out.

Speaker 1 No, there's a few people like that who are like genuinely, Sean Patt is another one like that. He's genuinely like a man of action.

Speaker 1 And Jay is the same way. He genuinely is that.

Speaker 3 Required no thanks, Bill. He required.

Speaker 3 He required nothing.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, are you kidding me? Jay, I am this forever.

Speaker 1 No, they're very superheroes. I don't think they need it.
I know Jay doesn't need a lot of sleep. And they're just much more about,

Speaker 1 you know, all that stuff.

Speaker 1 I mean, I help out where I can, but

Speaker 1 I just don't, I'm just not the superhero type. But people are.

Speaker 1 I'm sitting around and get stoned type. I can't help that.
I ain't managing that.

Speaker 3 But Jay gets knocked because, yeah, when he's not hosting a show, he can come in.

Speaker 3 and, you know, just bam, bam, bam, because he's been doing these jokes in his club, in the club act and be on Letterman and do that.

Speaker 1 But when you're hosting a show, Bill, you know how it is.

Speaker 3 you have to do a show every fucking night.

Speaker 3 It's not the same as guesting in a show.

Speaker 1 Absolutely.

Speaker 3 And you've curated shit over the past six months and you're coming in killing it.

Speaker 1 And there's a very few people who will understand this, but having done the show like that, you were one of them on this level. But during the strike of 2007,

Speaker 1 Jay.

Speaker 1 Wrote his own monologue. Yeah, I remember.
And no one other than that. None of us, none other of us could do that.
Maybe you could I don't know. I couldn't.
I'm gonna say that right here and now.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I came up with a monologue once a week. It was but that's not I mean

Speaker 1 I tweak every every monologue joke, but I but I but writing them I don't that's not my baby on the show.

Speaker 1 I think I'm great at picking the great ones, but they write them the end of the show that monologue that's well that's point of view. I mean that's point of view and it's a I mean they of course I are

Speaker 1 instrumental in how good it comes out i think because jokes and but the ideas and the force behind it the the idea force behind it is usually from me it's what i want to say about this subject that's what about and i will give them a template of how to do it and you know thank god i have them because it wouldn't nearly be the the same yeah but um

Speaker 1 But only Jay could have written his own fucking whole life.

Speaker 1 It didn't look that different than when he had 20 writers.

Speaker 3 The volume of jokes, too. Jay didn't just do five jokes in a monologue.
The volume, nobody did as many jokes on a monologue as Jay. It's crazy how many he did.

Speaker 1 He would do what he would do, like 15 minutes.

Speaker 1 Like Carson did four or five, you know. If you go back and look at the Carson, his monologue was not very long.
And six of them was him dancing with the joke fucking bumpy race and they played T.

Speaker 1 May your mother's

Speaker 1 for two minutes.

Speaker 1 May a disease. Yeah.
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 3 Yeah, Jay's, he's a workhorse.

Speaker 1 Oh, unbelievable. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I mean, so I get a little salty when people have revisionist history about people who we know to be the Titans. You know, not just, not, we're not just talking funny.
We're talking Titans. Right.

Speaker 3 They open the door for all these comics who have an opinion now about who's funny and who's not. You know.

Speaker 3 that's where i don't i'm not a high horse about it but i just like to check that you know yeah oh yeah yeah

Speaker 1 No, it's a,

Speaker 1 I mean, where the talk

Speaker 1 world went was the definition of,

Speaker 1 you know, the Andy Warhole.

Speaker 3 15 minutes. Yes.

Speaker 1 Everybody,

Speaker 1 I mean, right now there are

Speaker 1 probably 50,000 other people doing a podcast.

Speaker 3 Right, I know.

Speaker 1 It's so true. It's like if when Johnny Carson was on, he was up against Merv Griffin, Dick Cabot, and 4 million other people.
I know. It's so true.
Doing and they had good shows, too.

Speaker 1 They do? No.

Speaker 1 Cabot and

Speaker 1 Cabot. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 They were just different, and they couldn't survive against Johnny ultimately.

Speaker 1 I was too young to do the Cabot show, but I did Merv Griffin when I started when he was up here. And he did three shows.

Speaker 3 Well, his late night show that was on in the 60s, I don't remember it then, but I've looked at it now, you know, recently. Merv?

Speaker 1 It was brilliant. Merv? Yes.
It was brilliant.

Speaker 3 I'm telling you. Because

Speaker 3 his show.

Speaker 1 He didn't even do a comedy monologue.

Speaker 3 Did he Merv or Mike Douglas? Which one am I thinking of?

Speaker 1 They're both corny.

Speaker 3 No, but I'm telling you, and I hope I'm not messing up. I'm pretty sure it is Merv, though, where

Speaker 3 he had a, this is like Richard Pryor cut his teeth on this show, did a lot of these.

Speaker 1 We all did. I was about to tell you.

Speaker 3 But this is before the afternoon show. That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 Mervy wasn't in the afternoon. Yeah.
Merv was never in the afternoon. They taped it in the afternoon.
I'm saying Merv was this

Speaker 1 very lovely gay gentleman. Oh, that's good.
Ooh, right.

Speaker 1 Merc Morinish.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's cool. Let me see the light.

Speaker 1 And he was a sweet guy, and they would tape it 3.30, 4.30, and 5.30. Right.

Speaker 1 And if you got the 3.30 shot, it was like all these old ladies, they bust in from Hollywood Boulevard. Right.
And there I am, 26-year-old. Exactly.

Speaker 1 You know, Snacky. Oh, He's a funny young guy.
Right. Bill Maher.
He's a funny guy.

Speaker 3 Kipada, everybody.

Speaker 1 And then you talk to him for a couple of minutes. And I mean, it was cutting your teeth.
Yeah. It was painful.
And you got through it.

Speaker 1 And, you know, I remember keeping a log of all the jokes I did on Merv so I knew what, you know, I did on Johnny and all the different shows.

Speaker 3 Those shows were so innocent. I said, remember that show make me laugh?

Speaker 1 Of course.

Speaker 3 I mean, it was fun seeing all the comics on shows like that, you know, because there weren't as many outlets for that type of thing.

Speaker 3 To see them on that show, the premise of that show, I thought, was always a good premise. There was one show.
It was kind of bizarre, though, too.

Speaker 1 Some of them were so low budget. Evening at the improv.
There was one show.

Speaker 1 You did that? Oh, yeah, I did all of them. Yeah, I did.
There was one. It might have been Make Me Laugh where...

Speaker 1 They were so cheap that like they cut, you did a set, but they like put commercials in between. And they wouldn't even like, they would just

Speaker 1 cut it like at three minutes, six minutes.

Speaker 3 That may have been Norm Crosby's comedy shop.

Speaker 1 Maybe that's what it was. So like you'd be in the middle of a whole war.
Yes, exactly. And I'd tell you something about pirate TV.
Yes, exactly. Look, how cheap can you be? We came back.

Speaker 3 He turned into Steve Bluestein.

Speaker 1 What happened? Yeah. Steve Bluestein.

Speaker 1 Those are the shows, man.

Speaker 3 It was so much fun.

Speaker 1 What comedy club did you?

Speaker 3 I started here here in the West Coast. Where? But I mainly did...

Speaker 3 You know, I did the improv. I didn't do the comedy store.
I auditioned a couple of times. I just never fit in over there.
So I was an improv.

Speaker 1 I didn't fit in at the comedy store.

Speaker 3 You know, I think she had a type that she liked.

Speaker 1 It wasn't me. It wasn't me either.
Yeah. It wasn't me either.

Speaker 1 No, you know when you're welcome.

Speaker 3 You know it immediately.

Speaker 1 And when you're not. Right.
Which is fine.

Speaker 1 I was very welcome at the improv.

Speaker 3 Me too. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That felt like home.

Speaker 3 And I ended up liking that style of comedian that were more the improv than I did in the comedy store. Nothing against those guys.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 3 Because the comedy store, you know what it had?

Speaker 1 More showy.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and big names, too, that would splash in there. I used to sneak into these places, by the way, or sit in the back.
And I remember once I did the open mic night, I think, but I was underage.

Speaker 3 I was like 18 or 19. It was like 1979 or something like that.
And I was in the original room. And this guy goes, excuse me, walks by me.
And it's fucking Richard Pryor. And I'm like, oh, shit.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 3 Richard Pryor. And I got to see him do a set in the belly room, you know, and he's just working on stuff.

Speaker 1 Not a lot of laughs.

Speaker 3 Right. Working it out, you know.
Right. And I was like, oh, shit.
And then I went from there and I went into the main room, you know, I could have after he was done. And Letterman is MC.

Speaker 1 Wow. Letterman.

Speaker 3 And I remember Jim Jay Book. Do you remember Jim Jay Book?

Speaker 1 Of course. I mean, he would kill in those days.
Really?

Speaker 3 People don't remember him now. Well, he had all this.

Speaker 1 He was a gay thing, right?

Speaker 3 Yeah, but it was all that energy.

Speaker 1 He was on Hollywood Squares.

Speaker 3 Hollywood Squares. And he did Too Close for Comfort, I think, was his big thing with, what's his name for Mary Tyler Moore show?

Speaker 3 But he was really hot at that moment, I remember. Right.
I remember seeing Jim Carrey in there when he was first,

Speaker 3 people like that. Jim Carrey, who would Sam Kennison?

Speaker 1 Who would do impressions

Speaker 1 just of the face? Yeah. Exactly.
He could make his face. look like somebody and not have to say a word.
My brother used to do it. He's a special kind of.

Speaker 3 My brother did a Milton Burrow face. He would just go he would go

Speaker 1 he used to something like that like i can't do it no you can't but he would just do his face like no i'm burrow like how do you do that i i don't know there are certain things people do

Speaker 1 in the show business that just me go wow i mean i can't do improv or i wouldn't want to try you know it's funny i was listening to you talk about bellser

Speaker 3 and it just made me think because what you were talking about Well, let me say it like this.

Speaker 3 I went down a rabbit hole to look at the early Saturday Night Live again because I realized I missed a lot of them.

Speaker 1 You go down a lot of rabbit hole. I know.
I go down a lot of rabbit hole. Do you?

Speaker 3 But I do. I go down a lot of rabbits.
Well, I love history writing.

Speaker 1 I've done a lot of history writing. Like you're hooking.

Speaker 1 But are you one of those people who, like, when you're. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I know. I didn't even say.

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 1 It's like you're looking at YouTube and then. I'll tell you what it is.

Speaker 3 I never did. I'll tell you my first one.

Speaker 3 When I was a kid, I read a book on Houdini, and then I had to read every book on Houdini. I had to learn everything in Houdini.
Oh, yeah, that guy. So, same, and then it happened with Buster Keaton.

Speaker 3 I I fell in love with Buster Keaton. Wow.
And a friend of mine had a 60-millimeter projector, and he would screen the movies

Speaker 3 all his shorts. And so I got to see Keaton just, you know, have that experience.
And so I knew everything you could know about Buster Keaton. Then it was the Marx Brothers.

Speaker 3 And then it was the Beatles. And the Beatles happened for me after John Lennon died.

Speaker 1 Do you feel like any of this found its way into your writing? Well, you know what it is?

Speaker 3 I like observing, like at that time, I was fascinated with what made people big. I was fascinated with that, you know, and it just fascinated me.
I said, Why, why is this a thing?

Speaker 3 You know, like with the Beatles, I remember I knew who the Beatles were. They were in the background, but I wasn't, it wasn't like a thing for me growing up, you know.

Speaker 3 My parents weren't into that either, right?

Speaker 3 You know, like the Atlantic recordings were more like what was in my house.

Speaker 1 That's yeah, the Beatles angel passed over the black community.

Speaker 3 Not because of them, no, not because of them, but some songs stood out that I remember.

Speaker 1 You know, it just wasn't, it just wasn't a thing we were it wasn't the year yet it was just it just wasn't it was pre-civil it was pre-america as a multicultural society it just wasn't the thing it was a it was a still an apartheid society basically yeah 64 right so you just didn't black kids just didn't go to beatles concerts they wouldn't have thought that they could it just wasn't the thing you just

Speaker 1 probably they were seeing it a little corny right completely yeah they weren't james brown right but but although the beatles always give props to the black artists who inspired them, they always did.

Speaker 1 And they also had a lot of soul. You don't have to be black to have soul.
The Beatles proved that in many other groups.

Speaker 3 I mean, You Really Got A Hold of Me was one that they did.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 1 They did a really great version of it, you know, Smokey Robinson. And their own shit.
Right. I mean, they have lots of soulful songs.

Speaker 3 So I remember, yeah, absolutely. Maybe I'm Amazed is like a great song.

Speaker 1 That's not them. It's Cartney Blue.

Speaker 1 Yeah. But anyhow, my brother had,

Speaker 3 it might have been an eight-drag, I don't remember, of the the Beatles live at the Hollywood Bull. This is after Lennon died.

Speaker 3 And I was listening to it and Bill the Screams took me, made me do all of this.

Speaker 1 And I was like, what the fuck? I know.

Speaker 3 Because it's one thing to have the music playing, but to go back to the experience of them

Speaker 3 took me. And I was like, what is going on here?

Speaker 1 When they called it Beatle Mania, they were not exaggerating.

Speaker 1 Even at eight years old, when it happened,

Speaker 1 I kind of understood, I didn't have anything to compare it to, but I kind of even got it then that there was something going on with this that was outrageous.

Speaker 3 Well, this goes back to our earlier conversation because, since, you know, I have to be the historian because I went down to the history of the history.

Speaker 1 I love historians.

Speaker 3 So the Beatles hit at exactly the right time. Yeah.
Because a lot of this.

Speaker 1 After this Kennedy assassination.

Speaker 3 After the Kennedy assassination, because they had the chance to hit before that, as you know, their singles came out here and didn't do anything.

Speaker 1 It didn't resonate. Fall of 1963.
That's exactly right. All those singles fly.

Speaker 3 Our president gets assassinated. It breaks the heart of the country, right?

Speaker 1 Right. And they needed some

Speaker 1 youth.

Speaker 3 Yes. If anything, was a transition time for youth in America, also.
That's the other thing that was going on.

Speaker 3 And a lot of the folk music, it was coming out in there, but it hadn't really come out in popular music yet. That the revolution that was happening.
Popular music hadn't done it yet.

Speaker 3 You know, folk music had done it, but not popular music.

Speaker 1 So Dylan was a big thing, but you know, that was more for older A heads, college students. Right.
Right.

Speaker 3 So the joy that was in that singing, the joy that was in it, you know, the joy in those harmonies.

Speaker 3 There's so much was what connected with people, you know.

Speaker 1 Yeah, there's amazing energy

Speaker 1 and, you know, the love they had for each other translated and all that. And it was new in the hair.

Speaker 1 But there's somebody who, as, you know, people have said this theory before, who had a twist on this that will amuse you since you said this.

Speaker 3 He killed Kennedy?

Speaker 1 He said, you know who killed Kennedy? Oh, it was there. Yeah.
He said, look who are the most to gain. Brian Epstein.
That's hilarious. I love that.

Speaker 3 By the way, I can slot down any of those assassination theories.

Speaker 1 That's hilarious. That's so funny.

Speaker 1 I love that. I can't remember who said that.

Speaker 3 That actually makes sense. It makes sense.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's not true, but it makes sense. But yeah, they did benefit from that.
And

Speaker 1 also, you know, I Want to Hold Your Hand was a catchy record.

Speaker 3 And like Elvis, it had black roots in that record, too.

Speaker 1 All of them, you know, yes. All of them.

Speaker 3 That hand card.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean,

Speaker 1 Chuck Berry was John Lennon's.

Speaker 1 He stole

Speaker 1 Come Together directly from Chuck Berry. He didn't even change the line.
Here come all flat. I mean, Jesus.

Speaker 1 Even Paul said, maybe you should slow it down.

Speaker 1 Yes, they did.

Speaker 1 I mean, look, again, John Lennon on my ultimate, ultimate pantheon.

Speaker 1 But,

Speaker 1 you know, Paul McCartney is a musical genius. He is.

Speaker 1 Nobody is quite on his level. Not quite.

Speaker 1 And John, I'm sure, knew that. Yeah, he was jealous.
He was jealous a little bit.

Speaker 1 Or he just couldn't keep up quite in the competition. And that's a good example of, like,

Speaker 1 you know, and I think as the years went by, like, his genius was in the first half of the Beatles' life. I agree.
He was the spirit of the band. He was the leader of the gang that became a band.

Speaker 1 And it was early rock and roll and their early sound, which was fantastic in its own way. But in the second half, first of all, he was on drugs and then he was with Yoko,

Speaker 1 and he was lazy by his own admission.

Speaker 1 I'm only sleeping. And Brian, I'm bright.
Exactly. I'm so tired.
He is. Like, how many songs where he's giving us clues, Bill?

Speaker 3 And then everything else is gobbledygook.

Speaker 1 Really? Gobbledyhook. I always say that about their lyrics.
I don't have time for lyrics. No, exactly.
It's funny. I've been talking about it.
You could have shared John.

Speaker 1 You couldn't write a real lyric or...

Speaker 1 Right. He was lazy by his own admission.
And he was kind of over the, like, I conquered the world. What the fuck do you want from me? And I'm looking for something more.

Speaker 1 And it happens to be Yoko Ono. No, she's cool.

Speaker 1 Okay. So, but in that second half, I mean, Paul, I think, really took over.
He did. And

Speaker 1 even with John's songs like that one, he was kind of important to make it happen. Not that John, I mean, Revolution is.

Speaker 1 Could be my all-time favorite if I had to name one Beatles song, the fast version of Revolution, and that's a John Lennon song.

Speaker 3 And here's the thing: to prove your point: it's the B side to Hey G.

Speaker 1 I always say that.

Speaker 1 It's the B side to Hay G.

Speaker 1 That's my theory as to why they.

Speaker 1 Well, that's my theory. It's been in the paper.
I've said it before about why they broke up. Was they prized singles and John kept getting the B side? Strawberry Fields is the B side of Penny Lane.

Speaker 1 There's a number of

Speaker 1 Rain is the B side. Paperback writer.
Of paperback writer right

Speaker 3 And Rain is brilliant too Let it be was the B side they had like Let it Be is the A side I mean the A side and the Ballad of John and Yoko.

Speaker 1 No, no, no, that was its own single.

Speaker 3 Oh, that was his own.

Speaker 1 Okay, well, and that's another example of how John and Paul it was still the love affair they recorded that in May of 1969 after he got back from his honeymoon. Right.
And they're

Speaker 1 the only ones on the record. John and Paul, Ringo and George, were out of the country.

Speaker 3 Good old-fashioned man-on-man love.

Speaker 1 At Man-on-Man Love.

Speaker 1 And Paul played drums, and

Speaker 1 John played guitar. And,

Speaker 3 you know. I love that that song.

Speaker 1 It's just John's diary of what happened. Like, there's no song writing it at all.
But at least, apropos of gobbledygook, the lyrics make sense. It's a story.
Right, exactly.

Speaker 1 I think the lyrics are great to that song.

Speaker 1 But gobbledygoob, but you know, this, it's funny.

Speaker 3 I'm next thing you know, they're going to crucify me is a great lyric.

Speaker 1 It is and they banned it.

Speaker 3 The way things are going, they're going to crucify me.

Speaker 1 They banned it. You know, they couldn't play it.
That's because he said Jesus Christ. Christ, you know, it ain't easy.

Speaker 3 Well, that's him also saying, fuck you, to all that. Remember when they wanted to burn the Beatle records because of the Jesus comment?

Speaker 3 I think John, he doesn't forget, he didn't forget shit, you know.

Speaker 1 Oh, and I think, I think that's a callback.

Speaker 1 I never heard that, but that's interesting.

Speaker 3 Yeah, till that. It's like, okay, fuck you.

Speaker 1 I'm doubling down you know that was like the first cancellation yeah when he said we're more popular than jesus christ and then they're on tour and there's that great tape we still have it it's in the anthology of him at a press conversation you could just tell he's had it up here with having to explain himself i know yeah i never said we were better or greater than jesus christ or a person or a thing or whatever it is i just said what i said and it was wrong or it's been taken wrong and now it's all this that's great yeah and and it's just like,

Speaker 3 and then by the time that was cancellation, yeah. By the time, and he still had that attitude when they're when they were announcing Apple.

Speaker 1 Like, it's, it's supposed to be that. I love that.

Speaker 3 It's supposed to be this happy thing, but John, you can't take the questions, you know.

Speaker 1 No, he's got a sour look on his face, and he says, We're starting a company, so someone who just has an idea for a film or a record or a tape or something doesn't have to sit on his knees in someone's office.

Speaker 1 Probably yours. Probably yours.

Speaker 1 How awesome is that? Probably yours. Never breaking it.

Speaker 1 We were just asking you what it does.

Speaker 1 Never breaking character, never smiling, no wink at the end.

Speaker 1 And compare that to like 1964, landing the press conference at the airport where they're these giddy young kids over in America. And it's great.
And you all love us. But you're asking us questions.

Speaker 1 If I had a haircut, I had one yesterday.

Speaker 3 You say no and need money first.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 you need money first

Speaker 1 and come just a few years later and it's this sour stone-faced i know cynical like what the world did to them i mean beetle media well that's an example of like how fame can really you up too you know when you Because a lot of their experience, and I think Paul talks about this, was a hotel, another hotel, another hotel

Speaker 1 stage. Where they were, where they didn't even have their own room.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 They couldn't see any of the places they went to.

Speaker 1 But not your own room i know you're the biggest act in the world and you have to share a bunk with george and they would still they would sneak in women too you know they would oh yeah absolutely they must have oh they absolutely did i hope they did oh yeah they did they didn't talk about a lot because right right you know so they must have and in those days things were kept hush hush more those types of things you know but they absolutely did that they i hope so yeah they they certainly have kept that mum then yeah so i'll give my quick beetle impression for you okay whoa so because the way I've broken it down is by where it exists in my head, okay.

Speaker 1 So, and these are the young beaters, so like Paul, you know, he's up here, you know, he's

Speaker 1 up here, you know. You don't, I mean, who knows, you know, he's down there, I mean, who knows? I mean, you know, we might be gone by the time he's there.

Speaker 3 I mean, who knows, you know, and then, and then when you get to John, it goes into the nose, you know, right? It's more like that.

Speaker 1 This is John speaking with his voice, you know,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 3 and then George used the whole mouth.

Speaker 1 Well, who knows?

Speaker 3 I mean, I can play it if you want me to follow, but I cannot play it.

Speaker 1 I can do whatever you want.

Speaker 3 But you have to, it's in your mouth when you do George.

Speaker 1 And then Ringo goes back to

Speaker 1 hello, lads. This is Ringo's story.
You're right.

Speaker 1 It's all in different parts. All you have to do is shift the part of your head that the voice belongs in.

Speaker 3 That is.

Speaker 1 So you can go from both. And we can go right.
Hello, lads.

Speaker 1 So anyhow, that's my little. You can kind of make a thing out of that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I don't know. Yeah, but it's fun.

Speaker 3 I love just going down those types of things. But Beatles were different than all those others because there was something about it.

Speaker 1 What were your other musical icons? Who's on your pantheon? Like, for me, Beatles, of course, are probably at the top.

Speaker 3 Beatles became later. Like, when I was growing up, there were a couple of people.

Speaker 3 I think the first music that meant something to me was probably Marvin Gaye.

Speaker 1 I love Marvin Gay. What's going on?

Speaker 3 It's the music of my soul, soul, Bill. It's the best way I could put it.

Speaker 1 If you were going to ask me who's in my pantheon, I was going to mention him.

Speaker 3 It's Marvin Gary Top Grant or Top.

Speaker 1 In fact, Apple just told me that.

Speaker 1 And somewhat underrated because

Speaker 1 he certainly had his hits. Right.
You know,

Speaker 1 heard it through the grapevine and what's going on.

Speaker 3 And he used to perform with other artists like Tammy Terrell and that type of thing, too.

Speaker 1 But like to do a song about the ecology in 1970. Gary Gordy was against it.
In the black community.

Speaker 1 I'm sure yeah who didn't want him to do it this motown was so clean and anti-speaking no but not not in 1970 because the Supremes had broken through that

Speaker 1 do I have

Speaker 1 from the Supremes album is that awesome

Speaker 1 When they put out Love Child,

Speaker 1 that was a groundbreaking record. That's right.
Because Barry Gordy always wanted to keep it just like, let's not offend the white record by

Speaker 1 let's just keep it to men and women

Speaker 1 that transcends racial lines that's true every girl knows what it's like to be you know hearing a symphony or

Speaker 1 stop in the name of or stopping in the name of love or or you know

Speaker 1 whatever

Speaker 1 you just keep me hanging on yeah and they have some great songs yeah oh so so great um but when they met with the when they

Speaker 1 I don't remember how it came about, but I'm sure it took a lot of lobbying. He put out Love Child, and it was huge.
Yeah. And then they put out a successor, Living in Shame.

Speaker 1 Do you remember that one?

Speaker 1 Which was kind of Love Child Part 2.

Speaker 1 You could tell it was like, oh, this is what the kids are into now. Now we're living in shame.

Speaker 1 First we had a love child. But that's where we get the word Love Child, which they used to call a bastard.
Yeah, that's right. Love Child.
Yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 3 Never meant to be. And Nina Simone, who wasn't on that label, she had her own name during that time and had some controversial things that, and even for her, were out there, you know.

Speaker 3 So she was like the leader in doing that type of thing, you know.

Speaker 3 What was it, Mississippi thing? What was the song? That was one that was, whew, man.

Speaker 1 Why?

Speaker 3 I can't remember the title of the song.

Speaker 3 But Marvin Gaye, like back to your question, like he was the one. The other one that...
Okay, I was looking at that Apple list. Did you see that? Of the 100 best albums? No.

Speaker 3 Okay, they put out a list, and there's some, like, Sergeant Pepper's not even on the list, which is ridiculous.

Speaker 1 But really, not on the list.

Speaker 3 Here's who's not on the list that I could not understand is Earth, Wind, and Fire. It's like, how can Earth, Wind, and Fire Earth, Wind, and Fire had a sound all to their own,

Speaker 3 and they had the one album, The Way of the World. That's the way of the world.
There's so many great songs on there from Shining Star to Reasons.

Speaker 1 Oh, Shining Star, really. Oh, it was great.

Speaker 3 It was like...

Speaker 1 Okay, I'll have to give and Stevie Wonder.

Speaker 3 Those are my three in the sevens.

Speaker 1 Stevie Wonder is.

Speaker 3 Those are my three in the sevens.

Speaker 1 What a composer. Yeah.
I mean, when he was cooking

Speaker 1 that 10-year,

Speaker 1 I mean, there was nobody writing music like that.

Speaker 1 And it was,

Speaker 1 it defied easy categorization.

Speaker 3 He was an original.

Speaker 1 It was in every genre. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean.

Speaker 3 And it's still listenable, Bill. That's the thing about great music.
You can go back. If you can listen to it, it, it still sounds fresh as opposed to, oh, yeah, that's what they listened to then.

Speaker 3 But if it still sounds, oh, shit, this is good.

Speaker 1 I mean, all of Love is Fair. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Streisand did it.

Speaker 1 And did it great, of course.

Speaker 1 But either version, it's like,

Speaker 1 I mean, that kind of songs, that's.

Speaker 3 Good stuff is good stuff.

Speaker 1 That's cards. That's good stuff.

Speaker 1 That is good. Good, good stuff.

Speaker 1 Now a word from Alpo. Exactly.

Speaker 1 Alpo. That's right

Speaker 1 all right well i probably should do my do you have anything to plug um you know you have a new show you have a you always have to be here and we have i have a show called reasonable doubt i'm producing oh yeah yeah producing with carriers

Speaker 1 on who

Speaker 3 carrie and i are the exec producers of it it was uh

Speaker 3 something that was loosely based on sean holly who was actually part of the oj trial she's a uh great lawyer here in los angeles and it's loosely based on on shown and we're in our second season we just finished shooting it.

Speaker 3 And it premieres, second season premieres in August. And it's really a fun show.
Rama Muhammad, I have to give her props. She's our showrunner.
She's, oh, she's so good. She's just so good.

Speaker 3 And it's just a great cast, too. And so

Speaker 1 when you say executive producer, so you're kind of like

Speaker 1 exactly.

Speaker 3 And I love doing that type of thing, especially, you know. Oh, I'll bet.
It's well, it's not the heavy lifting, but it's.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you earned it.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, it's a heavy overseeing.

Speaker 1 You earned it.

Speaker 3 I knew I'd be an overseer at some point, though.

Speaker 1 See, get that. Thank you very much, folks.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to be an overseer. Another thing you could say, and I can't.
Where are you going?

Speaker 1 Who says there's no reparation? No, exactly. I'm an overseer.
Thank you very much. Thanks, Universe.
You did it right, Universe. You did it right.

Speaker 1 Hey, man. Appreciate it.

Speaker 1 Look at me getting up.

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