We’re gettin’ Belayed!

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Want to talk to Conan? Visit teamcoco.com slash call Conan. Okay, let's get started.
Hey, Phil. Welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a Fan.
Phil, how are you? Hey, Conan, Sona, Matt. How's it going? There's no particular order to the way I said your name in terms of how are you.
It's fine. It's fine.
And it's nice to talk to you. Phil, tell us a little bit about yourselves.
I like to get the parameters of a man before we continue speaking. Where are you right now? So I live in Vermont.
Yeah, you've got that Vermont accent. I was almost going to say it and you said it for me.
I know. Traditional Vermont accent.
Yeah. Where are you from originally? I'm originally from a town called Ipswich in England on the East Coast.
Okay. Very nice.
I felt I should experience New England. Yes.
And so that's where I live now. It's so funny.
I grew up in New England and really believed when I was a boy that England had stolen the names of our towns. I really believed that.
Is that what they tell you? No. I just was, I found out that, you know, because I grew up in Boston and there's Cambridge and just on and on and on.
And I just thought, you know, Sturbridge. And then I started to hear about these places in England and thought, well, why can't they get their own names? I remember I went to Ipswich Mass.
So you may be familiar, but they have an Ipswich Mass brewery. And I went in and I said, I'm from Ipswich.
And they said, well, no shit, we're in Ipswich. I said, no, no, the original.
And I expected to be carried on shoulders, but that did not happen. No, there's not a lot of, ever since we got rid of your king, we don't go carrying people around on our shoulders.

It's, but, well, so you live in Vermont.

How did you choose vermont what made you say okay you have the entire united states to play with what made you choose vermont uh i would say the beauty if you've been gorgeous a beautiful state um and it also happens to be howells the location at which i work So it was through work that I ended up in Vermont. It wasn't necessarily a choice, but I am very glad for the choice.
It's a beautiful state to raise a kid. I like New Hampshire.
I like Vermont. I've spent a lot of time in both.
And I'm curious what you do. You mentioned a job.
What is your job? Yeah, so I work for an organization called High Five Adventure Learning Center, and I use adventure-based activities for team and leadership development from fifth grade kids all the way up to the Boston Bruins. So a spectrum.
it's very interesting to me that it's the same principles if you're talking to someone in the fifth grade or if you're talking to a professional athlete, it's the same principles, I guess. Leadership, how to work together, how to have fun.

um is and and i mean yeah and i would say i'm unique in that i get to take people on a ropes course in vermont so you know we bring participants up to 40 50 feet in the air

and kind of have stretch moments for them. So really have kind of really extreme experiences, really, that allows them to kind of develop more as a team.
And it doesn't matter if you're a fifth grader or you're a professional athlete. The heights is the great normalizer or the great equalizer.
Yeah. Now, okay, let's get into the safety of it because you send a fifth grader up a pole how many feet in the air let's say 40 40 50 sure anywhere within that range is the child tethered or is there a good chance the child could fall to his or her his or her doom i would assume that if we did it untethered, we wouldn't be allowed.
What a weird way to go at that. That seems very legalistic.
I would assume that were one to have an untethered child that if found out one would be discovered and one could be in trouble. I think you have untethered children and uh i think kids are falling like apples apples in october i think they're tumbling and you're just catching them we start to get calls from parents immediately after this um no they're on a rope we belay them and and i would say that i've seen you climb i believe there was a kind of Moscow episode where you climbed.
Yes. Your incredible physique mastered the climb.
Hey, I like you, by the way. You're fantastic.
And clearly you don't have a very good television screen. But yes, I did climb.
I did a rock wall in Thailand, I believe. Yeah.
The differing factor, I would say, for our programs is we actually teach our participants to do the belaying. So that is that demonstration of team and leadership development is actually giving them a skill and allowing them to be responsible for their team members.
Oh. And so that is something that I really, I think the three of you,

bring Eduardo, bring Blay.

But teach Sona how to Blay

and then have Sona in charge of Conan.

No, no.

Guess what?

Guess what?

Phil, I've experienced Sona in charge of Conan.

I think I did about 10 years of Sona in charge of Conan

and I was killed multiple times.

I'm sorry. experienced Sona in charge of Conan.
I think I did about 10 years of Sona in charge of Conan and I was killed multiple times. Shit went half-assed all over the place.
So you're saying that I would be hanging 50 feet in the air and the only thing between me and death would be a rope and Sona's holding onto it? Yes. And then Sona sees a glass of white wine in the corner.
Oh. Let's go of the rope.
Wine. And I go, ah! And you go, shirp, shirp, shirp, shirp, shirp, shirp, shirp, shirp.
Shirp, shirp, shirp, shirp. Yeah, I like that idea.
I think we should do this team building thing. I think that would really bring us closer together.
So is it all climbing? It's critical for all teams. Is it all climbing? What other things would we do? No.
So I would say we range it from ground initiatives. They may be problem-solving activities on the ground.
There is connection activities to get you more connected as a team. And then we focus on the development of your trust and your responsibility and your decision-making.
And then you bring you to that point of belaying each other. Really, that's that ultimate point.
We'll get you there, right? But Phil, let me ask you a question. Faith in my abilities.
Phil, I have a lot of faith in you, Phil. Is it possible that it's our dysfunction that makes this podcast popular? That it's our inability to get along, our childishness, our peevishness, our just overall, I don't know, just refusal to act like good people that might be the glue here.
That's right. It's that we don't have a balance.
We have an equal amount of repulsion for each other. We're pulling on each other with equal amounts, so we stay tethered.ed.
Yes. Is that possible? It's highly possible.
And actually, I've listened to all of the episodes and from my professional lens, I would say you're a really high-functioning team despite the repulsion. I think that repulsion could be there and your team could still be successful.
I like the head nods and they no no i am i am agreeing with you that there is some um in architecture sometimes an arch works because various forces are acting upon each other in an aggressive way but that's what holds it all together um i've often heard uh often i've heard aviation experts describe a helicopter as a machine that wants to pull itself apart, but it's engineered in such a way that it doesn't. And that's actually what gives it its integrity.
That's the analogy. I think we're a helicopter that desperately wants to fly apart.
Rotors zipping in every direction. Adam Sachs walking into the room, his head being lopped off.
Carnage, massacre, flames, but something keeps it all together. And because of that, we're able to fly around through the air and give the local traffic report.
So everywhere around you is destroyed, but this group stays intact. Wow, beautiful.
That's nice. Where did you first become interested in all of this, Phil? You're a young boy.
You're living in Eastern. Young boy.
Well, I'm saying he's a young boy. He's in the Eastern Coast, I'm imagining, of England.
The salty air. Sausage for breakfast.
Please. You know, also some beans, the ever-present beans.
Tea. And some tea.
With milk. Milk, yeah.
Syrup. Yeah.
And then something, Vermont. Please, you're getting me very heightened.
Right. I thought we were talking about Vermont.
And then suddenly you get into team building. Was there another plan along the way or was this always the plan, do you think? So my education is in teaching.
And so I was going to become a teacher. And I came over to the States to do a summer camp program.
It's a rite of passage, it seems like, for a European to enter America and work a summer camp program. So I felt like I had to do it.
And at the camp, they had a ropes course, they had team development, and they did year-round programming. And I kind of just fell in.
They said, you've got a teaching degree, we'd love for you to stick around. And they sponsored my visa.
And 18 years later, I'm still here. So I've yet to find my way home.
Well, I think you're thriving. It's reminding me, I went to summer camp in Freedom, New Hampshire.
And there was a camp there called Cragged Mountain Farm. And we had, I had a, one of my counselors was from Britain.
So, and I remembered climbing the presidential mountain range. And there was this gentleman with a British accent who would tell us to move our asses, get up that hill.
And we killed him. And we ate him.
It was delicious. It was appropriate.
Yeah. We were running low on food.
We only had six more weeks of food left for a two-day hike. So it was necessary that he die and be eaten.
Phil, I really respect people that teach for a living and it's absolutely wonderful. And do you find ever that a kid or even an adult gets up to the top of the pole and they just won't budge and they just won't move and you're coaxing them and coaxing them, but they don't move.
What do you do at that point?

Push them.

BB guns.

So I think it really...

BB guns.

I love the song to say push them.

Push them and BB guns.

This is what I'm working with.

Are you up there with them?

Or is someone up there with them?

No, but I would say the question to push them

does come up often

and it's the number one thing we say not to do.

So, sorry, Sona. Can I give you my suggestion? Electrify the pole.
They suddenly spread out like a flattened squirrel and they fall through space. I love it.
An electrified pole. That's the answer.
Do they die? No, it's not my concern um what i'm saying is that a bb gun you have to hit them for 50 feet that's a whole nother activity for some other children for some team building you know so you're kind of combining another group yeah yeah off to the side yeah so to answer the question i um there's two parts to it i like that you laughed at that um well we there's two parts to it what we're clearly not See if I can answer the question, there's two parts to it. I like that you laughed at that.

There's two parts to it.

We're clearly not trying to learn anything.

Well, I will answer your question and give you the knowledge you need to the three idiots.

To baby gun pushing and electrifying the pole.

I'm wondering if I'll find myself in a situation where I have to push a kid down a pole.

I don't know, but I'm eager to hear how to do it. This is the next career path for you, Matt.
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Okay, well, you could have offered that to me. You just ate a second when I haven't had one.
Oh, sorry. Nice.
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So either we have adequately prepared the students so that we're not having people up who shouldn't be up there. We don't force them up.
Oh, so there's a lot of training before they go up the pole. Yeah, I would say there's loads of sequencing, planning.
It's part of the risk management thing. And then, but the other component is that I teach, as well as teaching the team building stuff, I also teach rescue training for those kind of scenarios.
So we can have participants go up to height or staff members, sorry, go up to height and then help pick a participant off the course. So there's like a spectrum or a range of rescue scenarios that we can do, and I teach those too.
Wow. So from a risk management lens, I would say you're in safe hands because not only can we deal with the mental side of how to help people, but we can also deal with the physical component of getting someone down if necessary.
We wouldn't want to push someone though. No, no.
You berate them? That would be terrible. I think electrifying much better.
I think beratingn. This is your little pussy.
Sona brings up a good point.

Are you,

it could be valuable to shame someone

who doesn't.

Sure, yeah.

And you know,

I know your first reaction

as an educator is that,

oh, you can't shame a fifth grader,

but I was shamed many times

as a fifth grader

and I think it molded me into the person I am today.

Case in point.

Hold it.

Excuse me.

Okay.

I'm driving home in three Maseratis all tied together.

Not easy to do.

But what I'm saying, Phil,

is that if a child fails and has to be brought down,

is there any ceremony where the child is maybe drummed out,

little epaulets are torn from his shoulders,

I'm not try to reduce that from happening, that will probably happen in some way. Yeah, kids will be kids.
i would say the worst people that would if there's a school group sometimes the worst people are the teachers and uh if it's a family group the worst people are the parents yeah they're the ones who are screaming uh the obscenity sometimes but um but for the most part i think that we are very calm and relaxed about the way that we talk with our students. And we attempt not to shame people if they were to fail or come down.
I know, I'm sorry. But if you come.
I understand you have a little game for us to play. Work with us.
Okay, we've just shown up in Ipswich, Vermont. Our car broke down.
It overheated. It was a 1977 hyundai uh which didn't even exist we weren't even planning on going no uh and no we were driving through we're on our way to a yard sale uh because they have a ton of those in new hampshire and vermont you probably noticed that on the weekends everyone just puts literally toilet seats on their yard and says it's a yard sale.
I beg to differ, Vermont.

But anyway,

and please, no angry letters. I won't read them.

So,

we come wandering in and we need your team building. What would

you have us do?

So, first I would say you're in the wrong place because

there's no Ipswich, Vermont.

So,

but after you... Son of a bitch! He just shamed you.
You just shamed me. And all the other kids are laughing.
It does come from the teacher. Oh, loser.
You little pussy. Oh, no.
You're a geography imbecile. Yeah, I'm going to shove you off the pole.
I'm from New England. I can't.
Wait a minute wait a minute all this shame stop firing bb's at me all this shame is molding me into an amazing comedian thank you phil task done task done you arrive and then i say get back into your car please we don't my services are Yes, very good. No, but if you make it to the right location.
And I think the first thing we would start with is because adventure, I think, sometimes gets misinterpreted as the climbing parts. But adventure is any form of risk, and it could be physical, it could be emotional, it could be social risk.
The first thing you're going to start with is actually talking about our emotions which uh can be a risk for some people i know and i can see the excitement in your faces um and the pointing of other people so what we're going to do is i am going to share with you on the screen um a number grid so you've got one through 57 so um what i'm gonna ask i'll ask one of you a time we can start with conan i'm gonna ask you to pick two numbers that's a level of risk because you don't know what's behind them but there are emotions and feelings words under these numbers okay what i would like you to do once you see the words is describe an experience or name an experience that you have had where you have experienced both of those feelings at the same time, because we as humans are not only experiencing one thing at a time when it comes to emotions. Okay.
And so, but the situation I wanted to be that you've experienced as a trio. So an experience you've had that you've experienced these two emotions.
The three of us have had. Okay i got to thread a lot of needles here it's got to be it's going to be two emotions i've felt at the same time with uh with these two okay so i'm gonna go with yeah i'm gonna go with 17 and i'm gonna go with 44 okay so 17 is angry oh my god so far no problem all right hang on no scenarios yet and uh you've also experienced embarrassment all of you both angry and embarrassed alongside your chill chums today oh well i mean yeah excluding just now and the interview we did before this.
Listen, I talked to some, you know, I worked hard to become, you know, a fairly well-known celebrity. And then these two are coasting on my coattails.
I'm often sitting here with some of the biggest names in the business, or if you're a bumblebee, the buzzness. And out of control.
He's out of control. I'm angry about that buzzness.
I'm embarrassed about his answer. I'm here with these two.
I mean, you were my assistant and somehow you were elevated to the top of the showbiz pile. Yeah.
Matt Gourley is in a zither band. He plays some of the coolest, you know, spots in Pasadena And he haunts the Rose Bowl swap meet.

And I've put both of them in rooms with Harrison Ford,

you know, some of the biggest stars in the world.

All of the Kardashians have been here at the same time.

And, you know, do I sometimes get angry about that

and feel embarrassed that they lack the skills

that I've spent years in the minds of comedy working?

Yes, I do. I feel both of those things.
But I'm going to specifically name a time. I think it was one of our, just pick one.
But I think I was angry and embarrassed when you guys, both of you, became intoxicated in one of our Chill Chums shows. One well it's happened several times and i and i you know i pride myself on being a professional and of course i imbibed a little but was still in plenty of i i know my my levels my tolerance very well and so i still was in control and um i was ashamed i'm to add ashamed to embarrassed and angry.
I was angry, embarrassed, ashamed. And I felt superior to both of you.
I'm adding that one too. I'm also adding.
Yeah. Okay.
So I just, I guess I won that contest. Yeah.
Okay. I appreciate that.
And it feels like I've really set... Wasn't that the idea to win? You don't win.
Didn't I win? No, a team building. We're on the same team.
You're tearing our team even further apart. But Phil, wouldn't you say, whatever they say, it's not going to be as good as that, so don't I win and I'm the winner? Do I get, a prize um i i think that your experience are you questioning children are you questioning your whole professional you just made that man say poof i was gonna get out of the team building business i have trained i have worked with professional hockey athletes who have told me to f off yeah and i even in this that made me oof um but i would say i really set you up there with those almost those two words yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna pass it over if i may yes to sona yeah sona pick two words let's see if we can think of a situation you've maybe had and let you Okay.
Go for it. Two numbers.
10 and 40.

Okay.

These are, I can tell they're good.

It's surreal. baby hat and let you go for it.
So two numbers. 10 and 40.

Okay.

These are,

I can tell they're good.

It's serene.

Oh my goodness.

Well,

I know when she felt serene.

Yeah.

Matches your dummy.

And then,

and then number 40 is frustrated.

Oh,

that's an interesting combo.

Serene and frustrated.

I know that is kind of both. Um, You know, chill chums when I was drunk.
I was happy I was drunk. And I was also frustrated I wasn't also a little high.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's a really good answer. Yeah.
Yeah, that is. And it speaks a lot to the team.
I picture Sona being serene and frustrated when she's got a bag, and it's got four gummies in it, and she's had three, and so she's serene, but she can't get at that fourth one because it's jammed down into the bottom of the bag. I'm like Winnie the Pooh with the honeypot.
Yeah, and your hands aren't working that well, so you're both serene and frustrated because that last gummy evades your grip. Yeah, okay.
All right, I like this game. Wow.
I know. I like what you're both serene and frustrated because that that last gummy evades your grip yeah okay all right i like this game wow i know i like what you're doing and i'm also sensing that they're they're both tied to the chill trums experience yeah um beautifully so yeah um alcohol involved in both i will highlight that also uh lastly i'll come to you matt for the last one.
Okay, I'll do four and how about 57? See how we all do extremes. Four is surprised.
Ah. Okay.
57 is chill. Oh.
What an end. Oh, surprised and chill.
Okay, well, I feel like I've got to carry on with this tradition with chill, the chill chums. I felt very chill because we were having alcohol and a lot of it.
So it kind of mellows you out. Yeah.
And you make an amazing drink. I want to compliment this gentleman.
One of the best mixologists. I'm not even kidding.
Your drinks are superb. That's nice.
Thank you. Still, I got to say, I was surprised when you said that you weren't drunk on the chill chums thing, because I remember you slurring some words and at one point talking to us, but looking inside the drink while you're talking to us, like it was a microphone.
I had suffered a terrible cerebral event, unrelated to alcohol that night. And for you to mock me for it, it was a total coincidence that I had, yeah, an eruption of blood into the brain.
Well, it looks like we're just a bunch of terrible drinkers. Wait, do you do anything with that? Oh, absolutely.
And I think what's nice is that what we're able to do in this, in the small moment, is reflect on stuff that's happened in the past, talk about it as a group, share some of these experiences together that have tied us together, and that allows us to progress into doing stuff that's a little bit more risky as a group. So all of those things are really positive.
You're saying we should drink more next time. Yes.
Sure. Or come to Vermont, and I'll get you belaying each other.
There you go. That's that next level.
That's nice. I want to belay.
I believe it so. I want to belay you guys.
Yeah. What? Yeah.
I want to belay. I want to be in charge of your life.
Okay. Let's get belayed.
Yeah. Yeah.
Spring break. Tonight we're getting belayed.
Spring break. Yeah.
Cut to me hanging on a rope. Hey, tonight I'm getting belayed.
Me hanging on a rope, you firing away with your 22. Well, I think we learned a lot here.
I can already tell the name of this episode, so that's great. We're getting belayed.
Phil, you're doing all the work for us. Yeah.
Well, Phil, lovely, absolutely lovely talking to you. You are, again, I say this without irony or just no joke.
When people teach for a living, I think that's a beautiful thing. And you seem like you'd be great at it.
You've already demonstrated that you're affable and you're funny and you're smart. And so thank you so much for the work that you do.
And I bet you are helping a lot of people of all ages. And you never know, I might make my way up to blank Vermont very soon.
Ipswich. What's that? It's not Ipswich.
Sorry for being so fascinated by your British roots. But maybe we will make it up there someday.
And I'd like to shake your hand. You're a fine fellow.
And you look a little bit like a younger Billy Bragg. I'm just going to say that.
I love Billy Bragg. He's great.
Wow. So the difference is a fifth grader once said to me, Hey, Phil, do you know who you look like? And it doesn't often go well.
And I was a little concerned. And I said, no, who do I look like? Sona and Matt might get the reference, but they told me I look like Llama Llama Red Pajama.
Oh, yeah. I was going to say Josh Homie.
I was thinking Gronk. Oh, no, I was thinking Josh Homie from- Oh, Queens of the Stoner? Yeah, Queens of the Stone Age.
But you know what? You sound like Clive Owen. These are so much nicer.
Don't you think he sounds like Clive Owen? He does sound like Clive Owen. Yeah.
This is so much better. You are better than fifth graders.
Yay! Is that a compliment? That's the nicest thing anyone said to me in a while. Phil, thank you so much.
Lovely to talk to you. Continued success.
And I hope we cross paths in the future Thank you so much, friends Take care, bye-bye Conan O'Brien Needs a Fan With Conan O'Brien, Sonam Ovcesian And Matt Gourley Produced by me, Matt Gourley Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross And Nick Leowow. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino.
Take it away, Jimmy. Supervising producer Aaron Blaird.
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Engineering by Eduardo Perez. Get three free months of SiriusXM when you sign up at SiriusXM.com slash Conan.

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