Judd Apatow Returns

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Hi, my name is Jadapatau.

And I feel very needy about being Conan O'Brien's friend.

Fall is here, hear the yell.

Back to school, ring the bell, brand new shoes, walk in the loose, climb the fence, books and pens.

I can tell that we are gonna be friends.

Hey, Conan O'Brien here.

Listening to the highly unedited, just off the cuff, Conan O'Brien needs a friend.

We never stop and start again.

This is definitely not a restart.

No,

how are you?

You doing good?

I'm great.

And get it right, or we're going to have to do it all.

I am doing great.

Thank you.

And how are you, Matt Gorley?

I'm good.

Thanks.

Hey, what's on your mind?

What's happening off the cuff?

We haven't talked about this.

I was going to get you there.

You don't have to cut me off and say, hey, I've got something.

I was going to get you there with, hey, what's on your mind?

On a recent episode, we talked about having a listener in high school that was listening during high school.

And then Adam had mentioned that he knew someone that was in seventh grade, Giles, that listened.

But we now have beat that record.

A friend of mine, Jeremy Connor, has a son named George who loves the show.

Started when he was eight, is nine years old now, and listens to the show and would love an autograph.

Would you mind signing this poster?

I'm not signing that.

You have to.

No, I want some scratch.

I want my payday.

This is so incredible.

He's

he's nine, but he listened, started the show.

Oh, well, nine.

That's when the real cynicism kicks in.

But this is for you, George.

Thanks for listening.

Yeah, of course.

This is so nice.

I love that I'm doing this.

It's nothing more more exciting to listen to a guy sign something scribbly um you can watch it on youtube yeah okay squeak squeak squeak it's also very fascinating to watch someone sign a poster

and to hear someone comment on someone signing a poster well there we go yeah that was good use of our time listen i don't understand how a nine-year-old what would they connect to we don't have any listeners over 14.

that's not true okay that's not true i have i can beat all of this there's a woman who is seven months pregnant and her child's been listening in utero

to the podcast and hates it.

Loathes it.

Kicks a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kicks a lot.

I don't.

I'm just trying to imagine.

Maybe it's, they can tell.

My friend Jeremy was saying that when this podcast gets edgy, it still has a kind of innocence at its heart, and he felt that that was okay for the child.

Maybe that's it.

But that might have been negated by the recent Dee's Nuts Milk Dem Dead.

Deez Nuts, we did do a lot of D's.

You know what?

Yeah, but you can appreciate that on two levels.

Yeah.

I used to watch the original Batman series with Adam West and just appreciate it on the crime fighting.

When they were making jokes about politics and things like that, I didn't pick up on any of it.

I just loved.

And then years later,

I got all the great dry humor and great references.

I picked up on that much later.

I think that's how people listen to our podcast.

You can listen to it on this very friendly crime fighting level.

And then there's all the nuances that we pack in here.

What you're saying is people should do a re-listen to find the onion layer.

Yes, and they should listen to all the new ads that we place in there

because there's dynamic ad insertion.

Talk on that.

Yeah, go ahead.

A little bit more about that process.

Okay, you know what?

This is really interesting.

This is an idea I had.

A lot of people think I don't really know how podcasts work, but my idea a while ago was, hey, we should have dynamic ad insertion.

What is that exactly?

Well, it's when you have a dynamic insertion of aforementioned ad.

If you could expand on that a little bit.

Well, sometimes there's something that doesn't have an ad in it, and if it does have an ad, it's kind of flaccid and not moving.

So I think, well, it should be moving or dynamic, and it should be inserted.

So it's inside.

And that's how you explain this to the people that put it into process.

Yeah, I did.

I called up some audio whizzes.

Adam, jump in here for a second.

Aren't I correct?

No, don't jump in here.

I'd like to hear you keep going, actually.

Why do you

have to be reeling from the fact that you said dynamic ad insertion just off the top of your head?

When you put the SiriusXM chip into my head, that was one of the words that was readily available.

It's a dynamic ad insertion.

Right, yes, it means that.

Listen, if you can't handle what I'm saying or you can't understand it, don't attack me.

I'm telling you in a very authoritative way that I had an idea about two and a half years ago that ads could be inserted dynamically.

Close to 10 years, probably.

No, not the way that we're doing it.

My idea was that it could be, what's a good word for constantly changing, always in motion, dynamic.

Okay.

And that it could be put into something which would be, I don't know, inserted, and that you could use it on an ad.

I started that idea.

Remember this?

Like it was yesterday.

I called you in and I said, I've got three words to say to you, dynamic ad insertion.

You freaked out and then you left the room.

And then the next thing you know, we were doing dynamic ad insertion.

We were the first to do it.

I do apologize because you've clearly demonstrated your knowledge on this subject.

It is a way that people can have their ads dynamically inserted.

And it is one of the reasons that I think,

I mean, this podcast used to make about, I think it was $300 a year.

Yeah.

But after dynamic ad insertion, we now make more than the gross national product of many countries throughout the world, including Switzerland

and countries that border Switzerland.

Yeah.

I can't believe that you even know.

that you even think about dynamic ad insertion and you actually understand how it works for you to say I've never seen Adam so excited.

I have.

He's really.

He's really happy.

I am.

I remember the day I came in and I said, if we're using microphones, I want them to be sure microphones.

Remember that?

Just take some time.

I just checked it.

How do you time that?

Also, it's here too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You said that.

I remember you saying that.

You're like, guys, let's sure it up every time.

Yeah, sure it up.

What's interesting, what I wanted was I wanted it to be in this shape.

Remember that?

And I drew the shape for you.

And did these mics need a preamp or no?

Well, I said, as long as it's an SM7

B

or eight, I don't have my glasses on.

It's a B.

What's that?

That's a B.

Well, I said B or eight.

All right, right.

Because the eights are fine, but you really want the B.

And so once I knew that we had the sure and that it was an eight and not a B, I was like, we are ready to go and we should have dynamic ad insertion.

And what I've done is I've created many platforms, and these are trilingual, quadrilingual, quadrilateral.

We have achieved a new level.

These are actually dynamic microphones as well.

So dynamic.

And I've had this mic inserted.

My point.

And you know what?

We just lost our eight-year-old viewer.

Parents took the.

Oh, you think we just lost them now?

Yeah.

I think they tuned out a minute ago.

I don't think so.

When you said dynamic ad insertion.

No, if his kids had a lot of chocolate milk, he's revving.

You were kind of sexualizing it too a little bit.

Well, that's the thing I was confident in.

I apologize, George.

I apologize, Jeremy, Giles.

I don't think children should be listening to this.

I don't know.

I don't think anybody should be listening to this.

You know what?

We finally agree on this.

Yeah.

I watched Pulp Fiction when I was 12 in the theaters with my parents.

I watched the movie 10 when I was about six or seven.

What?

Yeah, I know.

Can you believe that?

Oh, yeah.

I learned a lot.

Oh, my God.

Oh, Bo, Derek.

Brumin on the beach, pure cinnamon.

Remember the movie Nine and a Half Weeks?

Do I remember it?

I watched that when I was 47 years old.

Still a little bit.

It's fucking early for you.

Oh, I didn't know what was happening.

Why are they lying together?

What's happening?

And my wife was like, you know, she was busy with the kids, and she was like, no, they're, let me explain.

Why are they in bed moving?

Why is their nap so wet?

Why did you do that for?

You always go too far.

I don't think I do.

Do you know anything about going towards the line?

You just jump right over.

Yeah, that's not clean.

I call them like I say.

This is a clean podcast, sir.

Yeah, you just started this whole thing by talking about how there's a two-year-old listening who loves the show.

Any incendiary words, nap and wet.

They're not inherently dirty.

You're an awful person.

Anyway, let's get into it.

My guest today is not an awful person.

Good transition.

It's a director, producer, and screenwriter behind such movies as Knocked Up, Super Bad, and the 40-year-old Virgin.

He now has a new visual memoir.

It's very dynamic, I'm told, titled Comedy Nerd: A Lifelong Obsession in Stories and Pictures.

I'm excited he's here today.

Judd Appetow, welcome.

You know, this is interesting because

you've just flooded my voicemail with just demanding that you come on the show, which came across as very needy.

Who's going to be the neediest?

This is like a real battle of wills.

This is two guys facing each other in high noon.

I'm the only guy who begs to get on podcasts.

Like, I'm just checking the boxes because it is a way to find out if someone's your friend.

Like, recently, you know, I got to plug my book comedy nerd.

So I asked someone if I could be on their podcast and they said no.

And I was like, whoa, they must have checked.

Who was it?

You got to tell me.

Didn't hear it.

Heysen Heisenson?

Heisen Heisenson has the number one podcast in the business.

I just got on his podcast.

You must have.

He's since kicked you off.

They're not airing it.

Heisen Heisensen.

Well, I think that person showed great tact.

And

no.

What?

I think think oversight.

Oh, you're right.

You're right.

It should be something that

is good for Judd.

But this is a business.

I need to realize this is a business.

And, you know, for some people, you know, they got numbers.

They got to maintain.

That's not us.

That is not us.

That guy was like, we need asses and seats.

You know, we need sex appeal.

And I'm like, no, I'm the sex appeal.

Oh, wait.

Cue cricket noise.

You've had cricket noise come in right here.

Here we go.

No, you can't even get noise.

Source it.

You could source it.

No, I don't want to do the work.

Well, you got the cute new haircut.

You know what's so funny?

You're the second person today.

I came in, and people went, great haircut.

No, I was flying, got home, I took a shower, I went to sleep, and then put a baseball cap in the morning, and it just flattened out my hair.

I've had no haircuts.

You literally woke up like this.

I woke up like this and stumbled in.

What if it's better than the way you've done your hair your entire life?

Yeah, that's true.

It is nice.

It is nice.

It does look really nice.

You know what?

I should do this way.

Yeah, yeah.

No, it's

this is

me just being me, man.

It's just that kind of thing.

Oh, God, now you're ruining me.

Well, I've been editing Conan because he's in a few documentaries.

You're making nine documentaries.

I'm making a lot of them.

Sometimes, do you ever get confused and it's a documentary about Steve Martin and you have me talking about John Candy?

And it doesn't even matter anymore.

The funniest one that you're in is the Elvis Comeback Special documentary.

Because you are on, not as Conan, funny man, you're on as Elvis Expert.

Yes.

There is no irony.

No one mocks the idea that it's you.

And you seem to know more than anyone I've ever seen about Elvis, which is something I thought you just like

link in or something.

I have to tell you this.

They shot that a long time ago or a while ago, and I forget things.

And so I, this is a real story.

I'm at home.

I love all things, Elvis.

I see that there's this this thing about the 68 comeback special.

I'm like, oh, I'll watch this.

I'm watching it

in my room and in the TV room.

I'm watching it.

And all of a sudden, I heard a very familiar voice saying, you have to remember where Elvis was in his career in 1968.

And I'm like, what the fuck?

And I'm in the documentary talking about, and I, a lot, and I didn't remember that I had done this.

Oh, my God.

And then next thing I know, I'm nodding, going, he's right.

I like this guy.

Yeah.

I do him.

Oh, God.

And how do they even know you're the Elvis guy?

I think it's out there a little bit.

It is.

I've been following you my whole life.

I've never

known that it was like enough to go dock.

No, no,

it's Elvis and Son of Sam.

I'm in seven son of Sam docks.

We're not here to talk about son of Sam.

We're getting to him in the second half.

We are here to talk about you, Judd Apatow.

And you have a book, Comedy Nerd, which is extremely impressive.

I got this book and I'm looking at it.

And one of the things that immediately drew me to this book is it's gorgeous photos.

It's all photos.

I can flip through it.

I don't have to read as much as I, and then, of course, it's interspersed with great observations,

but it's basically your career.

And you've had a career that merits a book of this size because you've made so many great films and you've been involved in so much television and just comedy in general.

And if you're a comedy nerd, this is the book to get.

I really loved it.

Oh, thanks.

Yeah.

It's because I've always been a hoarder.

I found a picture of my room from when I was in sixth grade.

And in my closet, you could see I have my Phil Collins autographed album and my Dave Kingman New York Mets autographed bat.

And I'm like, it's like the Smithsonian in my head.

And so when we were doing the book, I, you know, I had, I just scanned everything and then I got all the photos from all the movies and then wrote some essays.

after the fact.

But I also finished it and thought it's so long that it feels like a textbook about workaholism.

Like, this is someone who needed mental help and should have found a better way to get help sooner.

Well, that's why I think it's good at the end.

You have a, if you need help like me,

and then which medications you've tried, which clearly aren't working.

Are you nostalgic as a person?

Like, do you look back all the time at this point?

You know, I try not to look back too much because I want to be in it now and making things now.

I'm very sentimental.

If I just bump into a writer that worked with me in 93 or 94 or an intern, I'm very sentimental for, oh my God, you were there.

That was so weird.

You know,

what a special time that was.

What a weird, raw, scary time that was.

But I like to connect with people from that era.

It's weird being older.

Is it?

Isn't it weird?

Oh, take it easy.

What?

No, I mean, like, I like getting older.

I was just talking to a friend.

John, we're not talking about you and Matt.

We're talking about older, older people.

No, no, no, no, no.

Judd and I fought in the Korean War.

He saved my life.

Memories of Conan from the 80s.

Yeah.

You know, like, like

you have stories about like Sandler from 40 years ago.

Well, here's the weird

has it been 25 years since 40-year-old Virgin or 20 years.

20 years.

Okay.

I remember when I was in college and I was working on the humor magazine, and grads, old grads, would come back and I'd be like, oh my God, these fossils.

And

I would say that to their faces.

i would say the natural history museum is down the block

but

i've done the math and i realized that if i showed up now it would be the equivalent of someone showing up uh it when i was in college who had uh been drafted in 1941 i mean it's like the same for real and i can't and i cannot accept that no just by being older you're creepy You know, like,

if I just go into a dance club and do nothing but stand there,

people will call the police.

You just being on an elevator is creepy.

Yeah.

You want an escalator.

Creepy.

That is the best.

That is such a great observation that you don't have to do.

It's not, oh, he's hitting on a 20-year-old.

No.

He's standing there.

It's the less you do that's creepier.

And he's drinking a glass of water, and it's creepy.

Yeah.

It's like in New York, there's a park

for kids, and there's all these kids, like little, you know, rides and stuff on it.

And there's a a big sign that says you're not allowed in the park without a kid and like so if i just walk in there i'm a creepy person i'm not allowed to enjoy the joy of children

walking around with a ventriloquist dummy

get the f out of here but it is weird having memories that are from like decades ago and just like knowing people from like their very beginnings to all the things they accomplished it blows your mind like the mark twain thing uh for you and like with sandler when we were all there for sandler you just can't believe all this stuff happened right i still refuse refuse to believe that somehow it's been legitimized.

You know, it all felt so wrong that we would be allowed to do anything.

And now, all these years later, at these, some of these nice events where you get an award or something, they're acting like, whoa, what an esteemed body of work.

And I want to say, no,

I shouldn't be here now.

This is absurd.

It's a masturbating bear.

He was getting the word out on a real problem that I was struggling with.

But you, and you got your Mark Twain award during the Trump administration, which makes it so much sweeter.

Yeah, yeah.

It was well.

Because he could have killed it.

It didn't hit his radar.

I don't think it hit his radar.

I think he didn't think I was that.

He got it under the wire.

Speaking of legitimizing, you might get the last legitimate one.

Yeah.

Well, they might, I don't know what they're going to collectors at.

I don't know what they're going to do.

Yeah.

I might be the last comedian ever.

It's going to be Fred Travelina next year.

I'll be there to support him.

Talk about getting older and our influences when we were young, but one of the things that is a touchstone for both of us is Mel Brooks.

Like it's our whole childhood was just that run of high anxiety and all of them.

That's why it was fun to make a documentary about Mel.

First of all, I got to talk to him for 10 hours.

So just to get to ask him questions for 10 hours is amazing.

And then it's also the doc's interesting because he it's emotional.

Like he talks about his life and how he feels about it.

And it's not just the funny stories.

He really goes deep into his friendship and his marriage and his life and his kids.

And you see what a great guy he is in a way that I think, you know, we see him as a hilarious guy, but he's also this wonderful person.

Do you think something that happens when people get to Mel's age, if they're lucky enough to get to Mel's age?

I don't know what he is now.

He'd be in his mind.

99.

Jesus Christ.

They may be able to access...

emotions more than they could earlier in their life.

And especially with men, some of the walls may become down and they become more accessible at this stage in their existence to really being in touch with stuff that they might not have been able to access when they were 40, 50, 60.

Even in the doc, he talks about living through the depression, which is wild.

When he was a kid, his father died when he was really young.

And he just talks about his aunt took a job in a factory to help take care of her sister's kids.

And just him talking about what that meant to him, because he really had to work in like the, what was it called?

The schmata business.

Yeah.

The garment business.

The garment and the schemata.

Yeah.

And he talks about like, it's a miracle that that's not where I landed up.

The fact that I had this career and didn't just go into the garment districts is incredible.

He told me once, he was telling me about being in World War II, he's in Europe and the Germans are on the other side of the river and he would mock them and they would yell back and mock him.

They're just the soldiers yelling back across the river and him.

And I thought, Milt Brooks fought Hitler.

For real.

And the thing is, it's, it's, no, this isn't a weird,

what it doesn't get more real than that.

We talk about any comedian, I think, or artist who fought Hitler.

They just, they're writing from a checkbook that I could never match.

Springtime for Hitler, right?

Yeah, and it was such a big part of his work.

And I know that there have been,

I think he told me once that the producer was on stage in New York was a massive hit that someone once came down on the front of the theater and was screaming about, you can't do this, you can't, because it's making light of Hitler and everything.

And I thought, Mel Brooks can.

Do you know what I mean?

If anyone can, Mel Brooks can because he's a Jew who fought Hitler.

Yeah.

There's no politically correct in that situation with Mel or incorrect with Mel Brooks.

And I asked him, I said, was anyone else really going hard at Hitler

the way you did?

And he's like, I don't think so.

Because if you do think, like, who really went just hard at Hitler before him?

I mean, Charlie Chaplin, I guess, before all that started up, but

there's not another guy who really was obsessed with Hitler.

It's weird.

A lot of performers and comics from that era were very pro-Hitler.

Oh, no.

From the 60s.

You know, Laughing was really a pro-Hitler show.

Yeah, Red Skelton.

Red Skelton.

Oh, my God.

He's going to get us sued by an estate.

I got sued by Red Buttons once because we did something in the very early, like the first weeks of the late night show.

We did some clutch cargo and we did some joke about Red Buttons that was just literally an aside.

And the next day, news came on and they said, and when we come back, back, Red Buttons sues Conan O'Brien for $20 million.

That's how I found out.

Oh, my God.

That's how I found out.

The local, you know, Chuck Scarborough, the local news.

Anyway, it all got resolved.

Yeah.

I paid him.

My grandfather produced a Red Buttons album.

And so when my grandfather died suddenly of a heart attack, I was like 16 and I'm at the

funeral and I'm just crying so hard.

And in the middle of crying, someone walks over and goes, Judd, this is Red Buttons.

i guess like a comedy nerd i was just like red buttons

i mean soon you immediately stopped crying exactly red buttons

um yeah i mean and how is mel i'd have to ask you i mean the funny thing about mel is his memory short-term long term could not be better so much better than mine.

Like mine is so bad, like I'll like go to leave the house and get in the passenger seat and just sit there.

You know, like, I'm all scrambled.

Like, it's already happening.

Right.

And Mel, he doesn't reach for a name from the 50s.

Like, he's just incredibly sharp.

So it was a great conversation because he really can look back at 100 years and tell you about everything.

Unbelievable.

And he's still crazy funny.

Like, like, if he wants to be, he's right.

He's right there.

I remember me and Bill Hayter went to visit him years ago.

And then at the end of it, he goes, come again, but not soon.

That's a great line.

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That's cool.

And this magenta status sounds amazing.

Blai, tell me, I think you get magenta status.

What's it entail?

What's included in magenta status?

Yeah, I have T-Mobile.

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And, you know, when we went to Thailand, I got great coverage and great high-speed data, which which means that I could.

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That's right.

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Wow.

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Let's talk about you and your career because to discuss this book, we really need to go back to this interesting arc that you had, which is at the beginning, it's you want to do stand-up.

You want to do stand-up comedy.

You're a performer.

And then you have this audition for Jim Henson.

And I have to ask you about this because, well, it's just, it's fascinating to me.

And you claim that this audition with Jim Henson is the reason you decided decided to not pursue stand-up anymore.

Is that true?

It certainly was a key linchpin of the decision.

But I was living with Adam Sandler in the Valley.

We had this little apartment.

And, you know, Adam would be on MTV every once in a while or the Cosby show was

one of the Theo's friends, you know.

And there was this audition to be on

a pilot where a couple of comedians would travel across the country.

They were going to give the comedians cameras and, you know, their own video cameras right in the beginning of when that seemed exciting.

Like, we'll give them a camera and they'll shoot it themselves and so all these people were you know handing in their auditions that they would make themselves and so me and sandler went down to the beach with my grandmother and made some weird i don't know what we did and then i had a list of ideas of things you could maybe do on the show and i find out later that i didn't get it but then they say to me uh but he'd like to buy all your ideas and then they said uh but he didn't want you because he thought you lacked warmth

First of all, why tell you, oh, and one more thing before you hang up?

And I just thought, this guy as Kermit taught me to read.

Like, this is the warmest man.

You know, it's like Kermit telling you to fuck off.

That's so great.

But in a way, I think he was right.

Like, I was probably like repressed and self-conscious.

And like, he was smart enough to go, you know, like, like, I could feel it when I was around Sandler or Jim Carrey as a kid.

Like, they are just way looser than me and just charismatic.

And I'm just like in my head.

So I think it hurt me because I'm like, he got me.

He knows I'm too shut down right now.

And so then when writing opportunities came up, I thought, well, Jim Edson thought I should be a writer.

I would just take the writing opportunities and do less of the performing things.

I always think.

And then he died.

Yeah.

Like, like not long after that.

So I'm like, before he could take it back.

Yeah.

Like, like, I was so upset about it.

And I'm just like, oh, God, what is he knows?

Jerk.

And then they're like, he's dead.

I'm like, oh,

like, he's the most important person in a young person's life, Sesame Street.

I mean, I put in a billion hours watching it.

So

he sounded like Kermit when he spoke,

which makes it even worse because it's Kermit saying you don't have warmth.

You don't seem like a warm person to me.

You lack warmth.

Yeah, you lack warmth.

You're just not warm.

Fuck off and die.

Go shine your shoes, you mutt.

I didn't get to clean it up with him later.

I'm fascinated by the leap to directing.

What made you think, oh, no, I will direct?

Well,

I went to college and studied screenwriting and took some directing classes, and I was just so terrible.

My films, I mean, if I think about them, I won't sleep at night, about that.

I showed them to people.

Like, I couldn't even believe that the two pieces of film you would tape together, that you would see them and it would like change images.

I was like, I was like a four-year-old.

And so I lost confidence in my ability to do it.

I also had an irrational fear that I would get the eye lines wrong and I would cut a movie together and everyone would be looking in the wrong direction.

Like that probably made me not do it for 10 years was an irrational fear of eye lines.

It is a real problem in your films.

Even your biggest hits, no one's looking in the right direction.

It's very distracting.

And even now I don't know what the lenses do.

You know, I always have to like hire like Yanisz Kaminsky to shoot it because I'm so bad that I need like a really smart person.

So I delayed it.

When we did the Ben Siller show, I never pushed to direct any of the sketches.

I just was so afraid.

And then I was working at Larry Sanders.

And then one day, Gary Shanling just literally just walked in my office and goes, you're doing next week.

It's great off of nothing.

Great.

No conversation.

He threw you into the deep end of the pool.

Yeah.

Like immediately.

And came down to said and helped me and was.

you know, so helpful.

And that was the first time that I ever did it.

And I just had to figure it out.

And then we did Freaks and Geeks, and I did a bunch of those and a bunch of unspeakable.

So your confidence is growing.

Yeah.

But once you start working with a huge budget and it's a movie, how terrified were you with your first, what was your first directing experience in a movie?

Well, I just worked as a producer on Anchorman.

And that was McKay's first time directing a movie.

And so it was really fun to be there and watch Adam go through the experience.

And Adam was very improvisational.

And so in addition to this amazing script he wrote with Will, he, you know, he was doing what Stiller was doing, which is a lot of like playing in addition to the script.

So, when we were doing the four-year-old Virgin, I thought, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to do that.

Even with the dramatic scenes, I think there's something good could come out of riffing.

But I remember like two days before we were going to start shooting, I was just really nervous.

And it's also Corel's the lead.

So, I'm going like, I think this is the guy.

Yeah.

And I watched a TV show that Steve was on, like a sitcom that had been canceled and they were burning off the episodes, like a terrible show.

And two nights before we started shooting, I just watched an episode and I watched Steve and I went, oh, this could be that bad.

Like, if I don't do a good job, I could make Steve look so bad because this show made Steve look bad and Steve's a genius.

And it really scared me to my core.

Like, oh, there's a way to really be a terrible director.

And so I just shot so much footage, like a million feet of film.

I had Steve and everybody improvising for hours.

The crew hated me.

They were so bored.

Like it was, it was the crew from the Unforgiven.

It was literally Clint Eastwood's crew.

And guess what?

Clint Eastwood famously is a one-take director.

Oh, man.

Do a take.

And he has famously like, well, it's five o'clock.

Everyone go home now.

They love Clint.

And then you come along.

Yeah, and I'm just fantastic.

And I'm doing like three hours of improv on like Steve peeing with a boner.

Yeah.

You know, and the whole crew would look at me like, I can't believe, I can't believe.

It's in the DP, when he saw the finished movie, he just said said to me oh now i see what you were doing but they really did look annoyed and that kind of made me scared but i just thought i just have to go into editing knowing that if it's not working i have other stuff to fix it with whenever someone has a great success they can actually send the wrong signal to other people and i think one of the things you did is you made these terrific movies, got all these really funny people.

And yes, you had a good script, but you're also letting them play.

You've got a deep bench.

You're trying different combinations of things.

And I think people started to watch your early films and think, oh, yeah, it's just letting people riff.

And you think, well, if it's Judd and he's got all of his people and he knows exactly what he wants to get, yeah.

I think other people who don't know that world took that as, oh, that's how you do it.

And then I remembered seeing just a ton of comedies where they would just let, you know, people who shouldn't be riffing, Walter Cronkite

and

Dame Edna, and they'd be just, it would be painful.

Yeah, because if you can tell an actor thinks they're being funny, it instantly is awful.

Like if there's any self-awareness of like, this is really working.

And so the cockiness of doing improv well, even if the jokes are good, like takes you out of the scene.

It only really works if people are so deep in character that when you're in editing, it could seem seamless, almost like a documentary.

Like when it works, it's like, oh, this was like a documentary of peeking in on people.

And when it doesn't work, it looks like someone thinks they're hilarious.

And then that creeps you out, you know, like you can't have that in it.

I recently saw one of the Pink Panthers, which are my touchstone movies, Peter Sellers, Blake Edwards.

It was one of the later ones.

And I think it's a scene with Diane Cannon.

And this is how clearly she was directed to do it.

So it's not on her, but it's Clusseau is being Clusseau, Peter Sellers, and she's laughing and finding it really funny.

And I was watching it with my son.

This is a couple of years ago.

And both of us were like, oh, no.

No, you can't.

No one in the scene can think he's funny.

This is, you know, someone just poured sewage into our soup.

We can't eat this.

Do you know what I mean?

It was just so awful.

But I would love that my son saw that too.

Who's the guy that played Cusso's boss?

Herbert Lahm.

Oh, my God.

Who's so funny?

Oh, Mike.

With the twitching eye.

Yeah.

You didn't get at that out first, though.

I noticed Conan got that out first.

I was helping.

I thought.

She tried to jump in with Herbert Lahm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then she realized she doesn't know what we're talking about.

And she never, ever will.

Because I remember seeing being there, and at the end of being there during the credit sequence, they show raw footage.

I mean, we had seen like bloopers before in like Smoking the Bandit, but this was literally just a working, like watching the dailies of him.

He's in the operating room and he's riffing.

And you know who that really pissed off?

Herbert Lahm?

No.

Oh.

Good, but

good guess.

Okay, you're both idiots.

I just want you to know, we've been wondering, are you really idiots?

But now the proof is in.

You can tell your doctors.

It's been confirmed.

No,

they put that in, and Peter Sellers flipped out.

And he said, this ruins the whole movie.

It doesn't, but he's kind of right that he's created this character.

And now you're going to show a blooper reel at the end.

It shows that they were just so nervous because, you know, the movie ends with him walking on water.

It's this very surreal ending.

And then you cut him going, you tell Raphael.

It's like this really fucking dirty rib.

And it's basically him breaking up.

He can't get through the speech without laughing, but he just was appalled that Blake Edwards put that in.

Because you could, not Blake Edwards, I'm sorry.

I forget who it is.

Hal Achby.

Herbert.

There you go.

Herbert Lamp.

But you could, you know, because you would think, oh, you're going to forget what the movie was about.

But you know, I had a similar thing at the end of this is 40.

I had over the credits, Melissa McCarthy and Leslie and Paul Rudd in the principal's office.

Because I just remembered Melissa riffing saying the meanest things ever to the principal

um, was one of the funniest things I'd ever witnessed in any space, and so I put it at the end of the movie.

I showed the movie to James Brooks, and he's like, What do you think about uh having those bloopers in there?

Like, what do you think in there, you know, like as he should, right?

He's like, Do you think that like kills the spell of the movie?

And I said, Uh, well, I kind of feel like I've put people through a big emotional journey for like two hours, and this is like my thank you for hanging in with me.

And he goes, All right, man, okay, okay,

So, you don't want to take my advice.

I'm one of the most iconic comedy writer producers of all time and directors.

But I just offered you some advice.

Now, you talk about comedy nerd is the title of your book.

And this is interesting because I didn't even know I was a comedy nerd when I was a comedy nerd.

But now, in retrospect, I see I was a comedy nerd.

You were aware when you were a comedy nerd that you were, in fact, a comedy nerd.

Yeah, because I think

people were into like like sports and I, you know, like how you said sports.

Like you're describing some inert gas out there on the end of the universe that no one's ever seen.

People were into athletics.

I'd be nerdier.

And so the idea that I had found something that was just mine, because no one else cared at all.

I mean, even with Saturday Night Live suddenly coming on the air, it wasn't like there was anyone who liked it like 5% as much as me.

But I also thought, oh, it's cool cool that I have a hobby that no one else has.

And I also really liked the fact that no one liked it.

And I also thought there weren't many people in the country who cared about comedy.

So even as a little kid, I thought, I could get a job.

There's only seems to be about 100 people doing this on Earth.

Maybe I could slip in if I really care about it.

And you were living where?

You were living.

On Long Island.

Had you ever seen?

famous people when you were a kid?

Because I had no exposure to any famous people.

And that fueled my belief that this is something that couldn't be attained if you lived in Brookline, Massachusetts.

Like, no, you can't do that.

That's a different universe.

I had the opposite.

My grandma was buddies with Tody Fields and she was like legendary comedian.

Kind of like a Joan Rivers self-deprecating comedian.

There's a really funny clip of her on YouTube on the Mike Douglas show.

And the other, the other guest is Gene Simmons from Kiss.

Oh, she's perfect.

And she goes, wouldn't it be funny if we found out that you were just a nice Jewish boy under that makeup?

And he goes, and he kind of makes some comment like,

and then she just goes, Yeah, I can tell from the hook.

Jesus.

Jesus.

I'm guessing she's Jewish as well.

Yeah, she is.

She is.

Okay.

She is allowed to.

She was allowed to do that.

Yeah.

But so I went to see her as a kid, and she had her leg amputated because she had diabetes.

So she did this comeback tour where they came out like on a golf cart and they put her on the chair.

And then she would do jokes about having had her leg amputated.

And she had all these funny jokes about going to get the spare tire out of the car at the gas station, the guy seeing her other leg, you know, it was all like

riffing about it.

And I remember getting standing ovations as like a 10-year-old and thinking, oh, wow, she's made herself cool.

Yes.

Like she's the coolest person in the world, this kind of like chubby lady with one leg and like people are adoring her.

So I think somewhere in my head, I'm like, that seems like a good, that was my, you know, 10 from your show of shows.

Yeah.

And then, of course, you get into Pryor, Steve Martin.

Yeah.

That's just, you know.

Well, that era, I mean, George Carlin albums were coming out.

Those Richard Pryor albums were coming out.

So, I mean, it's kind of insane when you look back, like between 75 and 85, what happened.

So if you were obsessed with it, you were just getting fed Monty Python and then Second City.

And, and I just couldn't get enough of all of it.

And then the thought, well, I wonder how could I do something?

Like, what would I do?

And I didn't really have a take on what I would do.

Right.

I just thought, oh, I'll be a comedian.

And that was never going that great.

It was going like, okay, I would do some of those like evening of the improv shows.

But then I met Stiller and then we came up with the Ben Stiller show.

And that's the thing that kind of switched the gear of the whole thing.

It was also an interesting time because we came up sort of in the same wave.

There was much less comedy.

It was a big deal when we were kids.

I mean, now we are those guys from the 19, from the Depression who were talking about when we were kids, we'd gather around the curvetop radio.

But in the 70s, I would know that Marty Feldman has a weird comedy special that's going to come out this summer.

And there's only going to be three episodes of it.

My brothers and I would wait for it.

It was an occasion.

That you'd track it.

Andy Kaufman is going to be on taxi.

Yeah.

And you knew months in advance.

Yeah.

Now there's so much stuff.

Like people go, why don't people go to comedies?

I'm like, because all they're doing is looking at good comedy like on TikTok all day.

And you could go, you know, is it good or not?

Yeah, it is.

Like someone like pooping in a hot tub is better than everything I've ever done.

You know what I mean?

Like it's all, it's the funniest falling down joke.

It's the funniest sex.

That's what I keep thinking is that you've given, essentially given however many billion people there are on Earth,

and you know the answer.

Herbert Lahm.

Eight.

Herbert Lahm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There are Herbert Lahm, many people.

Eight billion.

Okay.

Eight billion people on Earth.

And let's just say, I don't know, let's just be kind and say four billion of them have a phone that can record, or five billion have a phone that can record video.

If you've got that many people out there, If one of them is going to beat any professional comic mind because they were actually shooting shooting their grandmother when a lightning bolt hit her and her wig went flying off and landed in the soup.

And then they put a funny song to it.

That's never going to happen to that person again, but they have put that out into the universe.

And you look at it and you go, oh my God, it's the footage you've shown me of the mascot slipping on the ice.

And it's, and I think, I could get Judd, I could get all the funniest people I know.

We could work really hard.

None of us are going to come close to mascot slipping on the ice while they're trying to interview him it's just so funny and the person who shot that will never do that again but it doesn't matter because there's a couple of billion other people out there who are going to take a shot we're competing against that that's why i think like one of the things people like best from my movies is corel getting waxed Because it is the equivalent of a YouTube video of just watching someone being abused.

As soon as it starts, you're like, oh, geez, this is real.

I could just see it.

Like the audience, we didn't tell them it was real, but they literally could just feel it.

That's why I think jackass is the funniest thing ever.

you just, you just have to stop thinking you can compete with it and just

muddle it.

I'm determined to do a better stunt than anyone on jackass, and I'm going to do it too.

Yeah, you should.

Colonel O'Brien died today.

If you just want me to punch you in the nuts, I'm happy to do it.

You mean, again, we could take turns.

Okay.

Yeah.

Do you have the ability to be sentimental and really attached to just like, all the experiences that you've had in your career?

Or have you worked on yourself?

Because a lot of people people can't.

A lot of people are just, they stay in the moment and oh, I got to get, I got to make this work.

I got to, and I know that you work on yourself a lot.

You read a lot of self-help books.

And is this something you're working on to like trying to be able to access, I'm so lucky, I can't believe I get to do this, all that kind of stuff?

I think, you know, my parents never talked about anything with therapy or religion as when I was a kid, like nothing.

They didn't bring it up.

Although my dad did, when my parents were getting divorced, leave out a book of

that was called Growing Up Divorce, like hoping i'd read it so he just left it on a coffee table and then

so literally the way of helping you is just homework yeah

so like so we never talked about all the pain and then and then one day i like three years ago i mentioned to him like you know the only thing you never talked to me the only thing that even ever helped me is i found this book in the house and it was a little helpful he goes yeah i left that book out for you

and i'm like you left it out yeah i hoped you read it and i'm like well you didn't ask me if I read it.

Like, you didn't know that I read it.

Yeah, but, you know, it got moved.

I was in a different spot.

This is what passed for a real heart-to-heart in our era.

I think when my mom was pregnant with my youngest brother, someone left a book out that was called Mommy and Daddy, you know, are having a baby.

I remember that.

And I remembered when you get to the crucial part of how the baby was created, it's just a drawing of the mommy and the daddy lying in bed with their covers up to their chin,

looking straight up at the ceiling, smiling, and it just says, Mommy and Daddy had a nap.

And you're like, they get to the crucial point.

That is how your

family does it.

I know, exactly.

Well, that's

that is how we do it.

Oh, I have a very traumatic story about that book because that book was called, Where Did I Come From?

And it was like funny cartoons of like a sperm in a top hat, you know.

And then they say, you know, an orgasm is kind of like a sneeze, but different, you know, and uh, and then it would come

out, not your nose, but your dick,

Jesus, book.

They had like the mom naked with her boobs out.

It was like, some people call them jugs, some people call them titties.

This is not, we're not talking about the same book.

My book had none of this.

So, I would remember a sperm with a top hat.

So, this was the book

in our world.

And my friend had the book, and I was like, literally, like seven or eight.

And I'm like, I need more time with that book.

And so I steal the book and I take it home.

And then my, my mom sees my knapsack.

She's like, what's this book?

And I'm like, oh, I took it out from the library.

She's like, well, there's no library card thing there.

I'm like, I don't know.

Maybe they didn't put it on that one.

I don't know.

And she's like, you're lying to me.

I'm like, I'm not lying to you.

That's where I got the book from the library.

And, you know, so then she's like, well, when your dad gets home, we're going to have to deal with this.

Oh, boy.

So, you know, my dad comes home and he's just like, don't be a liar.

Don't be a thief and a liar.

And so my family didn't have the instinct to go, I think he wants to know the facts of life.

He wants to know

they are pursuing the wrong avenue.

Where did the book, where did the book originate?

No, no, no, no.

He's clearly crying out to learn about sex.

Yes, yes, yes.

But

bookstore or library?

Stolen or borrowed?

I never left it out for you in silence.

My dad comes home and then like I get you like a spanking.

I'm going to give you a spanking.

And I'm like, I didn't steal the book.

And they're like, just say you stole the book and we won't spank you.

And I'm like, and in my head, I thought, I will never admit it, ever.

Like, I literally had an idea, like, never admit it, no matter what happens right now.

And I just like took this like spanking.

And then my parents start like crying because they can't believe I'm so crazy that I won't admit I stole the book.

And I'm like John McCain at the Hanoi Hilton.

Just compare your experience with John McCain at the Hanoi Hilton is treason, sir.

And finally, my dad's just like, if you just admit it, we'll never spank you again.

And I went, yeah, I stole the book.

And then they never spanked me again.

What a good deal you got, though, man.

You really won that negotiation.

But that's how you become the guy that makes the 40-year-old virgin.

Yeah.

You know, that kind of trauma just lives in me.

There were so many.

Jason Siegel's character in Knocked Up.

I remember having that moment of seeing that in the theater.

And there was so much I loved about that movie and still do, but his character, the way he talks to Catherine Heigl and says, like, oh, the, you know, talking about her body.

And it's, he's actually being quite warm, but it's also he's, he's not, I don't think he's crossing a line, but he's on a line and he's kind of crossing it.

It's douchey.

It's, yeah.

yeah.

But the other thing, too, is like he's just so, and because he's so lovable and sweet, he's the perfect guy to do it.

But I thought, oh, this is new ground.

Like, I haven't seen anyone do this guy before.

Yeah, I think he said, I see the milk came in.

Yeah.

Right?

Wasn't that one of his lines?

Yeah.

Which, if, you know, if someone said that to me, I'd be horrified, but I'd also be like, I'm impressed that you know that.

Oh, no.

He knows so much about what a woman goes through.

And he's saying it with such empathy that you have to remind yourself he's a guy.

He couldn't be.

But I mean, it's.

Well, it was funny because when we were shooting Knocked Up, you know, we had gotten canceled with freaks and geeks and undeclared.

And I felt really bad because I thought, all these people are so great.

And we keep getting kind of crushed by people.

So when they said, okay, to knocked up, I'm like, oh, I could make all of Seth friend, Seth's friends, everyone I think should be a star.

Right.

And just like,

and in one movie, if I can make them all funny, then they all can like work and do cool things.

And so everyone everyone was very aggressive.

So it was almost competitive on set.

You know, I would even have sometimes have two people do the same scene and go, hey, let's just see who does it funnier.

Like it was kind of not even nice.

Looking back, it was gladiator days.

Yes.

And, but everyone was a lot of high energy.

And then Siegel was doing this kind of mellow douchey guy.

And I remember thinking, I don't know if this is working, but I'm going to just go with it.

And then I got into editing and I realized, oh, he had countered the vibe of everyone else and everything he did.

He's playing a different part of the guitar neck.

He's getting a different, he's in a different register completely from everyone else, which is fantastic.

Yeah, no, so, so funny.

Jason was always the funniest to deal like on Freaks and Geeks when he was miserable and in love with Linda Cartellini.

And you knew if you asked him to sing lady to her and make her cringe, he just was so hysterical doing it.

Yeah.

And he really is that sweet when you, when you hang out with him or talk to him, he's got that sweetness.

He can access that.

It was funny the the other night seeing Siegel and Seth on the Emmys.

Yeah.

Like sitting in the front row next to Harrison, Floyd.

I'm like,

I was like, so excited.

It's been a fold in the universe.

I think one of the big lessons that comes away from me when I talk to you or flip through your book is my favorite part of this whole business has been collaboration.

To me, that's the great scam of this business.

It's madness that you get to be around these people and it's just,

it feels like I should have paid for the privilege, you know?

Yeah, because you'd love it so much.

Like, I've been editing a documentary about Norm McDonald, which will be on next year.

So I've watched all of his clips with you.

Yeah.

And they're just, they're so good.

You kind of can't believe how many times something magical happened

on the show.

You don't realize till you kind of really line up all the things Norm McDonald did, how many times he did some breakthrough, riotously funny thing.

But the thing that I was delighted about while making the documentary is when you go through his whole life and you go through all the clips, there was a simplicity to Norm, which is he loved comedy more than anything, like comedy and his family.

And that was kind of the main thing.

And he just loved to make you laugh, like more than almost anyone where you go, oh, that was just the whole thing to him.

In fact, I think he said.

Maybe it was like Jon Stewart was talking about this.

I'm not even, I'm conflating it.

He loved that Norm loved his joke so much that he didn't care how you reacted.

Oh, that's the other thing.

I mean, I remember this so clearly, Norm being on the show and being fantastic, but he had more nerve than anyone I've met in comedy.

So he's done and he leaves the stage, the band's playing, and Andy leaned over and said, Norm doesn't care in a way that frightens me.

And I was like, that's exactly it.

It's just terrifying because he will, he just, and you can see him on update.

All those times he would lean in and hold the camera.

If the joke doesn't work, he slows down.

He slows down.

He's not gently speeding up to get on to the next one.

He is, and he just, I don't know, he was a magical, magical person who somehow knew, I won't be here long.

I apologize to no one.

This is how it should be done.

Yeah, because when I was a kid, like the dream was like, could you ever be around Bill Murray or Gilda Radner just to even watch it happen.

So sometimes I think the only reason why I ever did anything was just to be able to watch.

Like all the work I ever did was just to sit in a chair on the Anchorman set and watch them sing Afternoon Delight.

Like, oh, I found a way to have credibility to be a fan.

Yeah, yeah.

It's a lovely thing.

I just always think this is a dodge of some kind.

We snuck our way into this thing and soon they will find out and escort me out.

I'll take it.

The book is called Comedy Nerd, and it's a delight.

It's just so nice to have all of this here.

And even just flipping through it, you get hit with so many images of hilarious moment, hilarious moment, hilarious moment.

And there's photos of you in there.

I know, I didn't, and I didn't clear them.

And the money goes to fire charities.

Well, now that I'm suing you, the money goes to me.

And 826.

Yeah, Wayton.

Wait, breaking news, Connor Bryan taking fire funding, much needed firefunding over a small dispute with Judd Apatow.

And you've got all these, you're constantly making these documentaries, which this is a new thing for you.

I mean, you're so, the first one I think you did was Gary Shandling.

Is that right?

Well, the first one was a 30 for 30 about Dwight Gooden and Daryl Straub.

Yes, that's right.

That's right.

But I think the first comedy one was what you did for, and I think I told you at the time, this is a mitzvah for Gary because Gary really, really deserved the full treatment and you gave it to him.

And then

I'm looking forward to all these other ones, and I'll be in some of them, I suppose.

You're in a lot of them.

You're talking about Elvis during the Maria Bamford documentary.

He just Elvis just had a thing known as Maria Bamford.

Maria Bamford took black music and white music and fused them at a time after World War II.

All right, go with God.

That's what I say to you.

Thank you.

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We're back part two with fake lawyer David Melmed, who works here at Team Coco.

We're talking to him about music rights.

We are talking.

I was going to get there.

Oh, sorry, because this is the music.

He's talking about many other things, too.

I mean, you devoted a huge chunk to how good it looking.

Unlike a certain lawyer, I don't drone on and on.

Unless you're talking about how attractive he is.

Well, and you're being billed for.

So

we can talk as long as

your meter's running.

Absolutely.

We can go all day, Tony.

You can go all day.

Fortunately.

All day, buddy.

I love that.

I'm going to get a bill tomorrow for $900.

Keep going.

I love this.

David Melmett is his name.

He does a wonderful job here at Team Coco.

And we had a legitimate question.

We were following up this previous conversation we had.

This is part two.

Can we sing popular ditties on the show, even if we're singing them badly, out of tune, using incorrect lyrics?

Do we still have to pay?

And, David, your answer was maybe.

And the thing that got my attention is that you say, whatever happens, you have to start making phone calls and writing emails to people to ask if we can buy it, which sounds draconian to me.

It can be, but it's also you have to look at what you're trying to clear.

So you mentioned Led Zeppelin, Beatles, Michael Jackson, Brittany.

I mean, these are iconic bands, music.

If you were, let's say, in that band and that and you created this original work, right?

Yep.

You would, I'm not saying you necessarily want to be compensated for it, but certainly credit.

And that's something that you have brought into the media space that you are protecting.

Okay.

So I think you had mentioned, Conan, before of wouldn't you want your material out there being promoted?

Wouldn't you want to be on the Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend podcast of music?

It depends on who you're trying to copy, if you will.

Okay, I'll be Paul McCartney.

Sure.

You've called Paul McCartney because I sang a quick snippet of Let It Be.

You call me.

Hello.

Sure.

Paul McCartney came on your podcast.

No, I'm doing it.

I'm doing it right now, David.

David, this is a roleplay.

This This is a roleplay.

Are you a lawyer and not a comedian?

I wouldn't be talking to Paul McCartney, but if I had been.

Listen.

I would talk to you.

David,

I know.

Your improv skills are terrible.

I would not be talking to him.

That would not happen in this scenario.

But if I was.

Okay, that's what we're doing right now.

Yes.

You just rang the phone.

Hello?

Who's here?

Who's there?

Hello, is this a telephone?

Who's here?

Who's on the phone?

Is this...

I just picked up my phone and I was wondering.

It went all jingly-wingly and I picked it up.

Who's there, please?

Identify yourself.

This is David Malmud with Team Coco slash SiriusXM.

I work with Conan O'Brien.

Oh, Conan O'Brien.

Yes.

I was on his podcast, I think, and he's interviewed me.

I've interviewed him a few times.

He's a very good musician and singer.

What was your question?

My question is, we would like to use a few seconds of your Let It Be.

Oh, that's not fucking happening.

No fucking way.

And that's a song I wrote, and that's a big song.

1969.

Oh, it was on Let It Be.

And, you know, I just had a little tune in my head, and I came in.

And he said, Hey, John, what do you think?

Let it be?

And he was like, I don't know.

I was like, oh, that's Last Ringo.

And Rickett was like, I'll just play the drums.

And then Joan was like, oh, I'm kind of grumpy.

And then I was saying, you know, we paid it in a severe.

So no, I wouldn't.

What do you want to do to let it be?

What do you want to do?

Hi, this is Michael Jackson.

I think I actually own all the rights.

I'm willing to sell that's a great point oh i forgot to mention that i'm here having tea with michael jackson's ghost um so oh by the way boo that's not so scary now is it

it's you know he would say

boo he would say boo

oh so it's so funny i never knew sona was the super funny one but she is she's like the funniest one on this podcast and she was just conan's assistant i'm kind of a deep fan i go really deep on this show what

you know who i am oh yeah you're hilarious i remember you you were on the tour and you've done a lot of funny videos with Conan.

I follow you religiously.

And hey, shout out to the Armenian community.

Oh, my God.

Yeah, I enjoy that book.

Michael, could you just lay back a little bit?

Sure, sure.

Okay.

So, I'll be over here.

Oh, he just walked out of the room backwards.

Something he does.

You know, with the Beatles, we just sang the songs.

We didn't do all the leaping and the jumping around, but he did it really well.

So listen, David Melmud, do you mind if we switch to Zoom for a second?

Because my line isn't so good.

Can we switch over to Zoom?

Absolutely.

Oh, fuck, you're handsome.

Thank you.

Thank you, Paul.

Oh, much appreciated.

Does this change your opinion on me?

You've got like a golden glow, and

I don't fancy the fellas too much, but I gotta say, you're a very good-looking.

You might not be a lawyer, I've heard it's a question.

You're a very good-looking fellow.

Thank you.

Does that change your

not at all?

No, the law's the law.

Do you mind on doing that one button?

Just gonna do it this little bit.

David.

Whatever it takes to get these cleared.

Okay.

So you know what I would say?

You know what I'd say?

Whatever.

Now the lawyer's the funny one.

The assistant's the funny one.

The lawyer's the funny one.

And where's Conan and all this?

He's been quiet for a while.

Yes.

Haven't heard.

I guess he makes all the money.

He's out counting the money.

Now I got to make some pounds.

I make some pence.

David, I've got to go, but no, you can't have Let It Be.

It's no way it's a special song to me.

Well, Paul.

Unless it's something Conan wants, and then I'll do it instantly.

There we go.

Okay.

Much appreciated.

We are going to send you a sample, Paul, of Conan singing Let It Be in His Form.

And I think we're going to change your tune.

You know what?

I'm just saying,

cut to the chase, David.

I give you oral permission right now, and I'd like to give you oral another way.

If it's okay, if it's okay.

If it's okay, I'd also like to, from this point on, give Conan a songwriting credit.

It's Lennon McCartney and O'Brien on Let It Be.

Fantastic.

I think what he's doing is a bang-up job.

He's surrounding himself by people who are very funny.

Fantastic.

Let me write.

I'm writing this down.

Yeah.

Paul.

Thank you.

Well, anyway, I got to sign off now and turn it back over to Conan.

What a career.

What a career.

Oh, fantastic.

I love it.

Yeah, he's great.

He's amazing.

I'm going to go now.

Okay, thank you.

Okay, doop-de-doo.

Oh, that's a good song.

I think I'll write that down.

Doop dee-doo.

I thought it would be pretty good.

Doop-de-doo, doop-de-doo.

Let's put that out.

Okay, I'm back.

Okay.

I would say that would get me nowhere, and I'll tell you why.

Because it's oral.

No.

Oh, because it's Paul, and it.

Okay.

Oh, I see.

You need it from the actual people who.

now if he wrote, you know, we need the publisher, so we need the writer, so I assume Paul and who else wrote Let It Be, help me out here.

I mean, McCartney wrote it, but it's back in the Lennon-McCartney days.

Sure, okay.

So we would go to Lennon's estate, right?

We'd have to go to Paul.

Okay, Paul's great, let's do it.

Then we'd have to go to...

John Lennon's estate.

Then we would have to go to the record label and say, hey, we would like to do it.

What a nightmare.

What a nightmare.

It's a nightmare.

And I'll tell you what's.

I hate your life.

I mean, and

I wish you had a better life because this is an awful job.

Well, you know what?

It's problem.

You You know what?

It's actually problem solving because I'll tell you why I like doing it.

Because if you come to me and say, we want to do this, I think my joy is to try to make that happen.

It really is.

It's good for you.

It is.

I really, because once we get down to step 12, and I can, I have not been able to convince you to do something else.

And you say, look, Conan wants to do this, then you just try to make it work.

This is amazing.

And

so can I just chime in with a genuine statement that David is to his credit, and this is what he, everyone loves him for a lot of reasons, but one of the reasons is that he is a genuine problem solver.

Anytime you come to him with an issue,

his answer is yes, we'll figure it out.

At Team Coco, there's a lot of people around here who just want to bitch and moan and make problems.

You are the rare person who actually gets in there and tries to solve a problem.

You're like a fixer?

You can do it.

I'm a fixer.

That's a real morale booster for the team.

I want to call this company deadweight.

90% is just pure rot.

And everyone's just bitching and moaning moaning all the time, and Jeff's back is out again, and a little, you know, whatever.

I don't want to hear it.

Everyone, shut up.

Can you just, if we does do something and someone calls and says, hey, he used our music, can you just be like, no, he didn't?

Yes.

What about lying?

Yeah, just lying or hanging up on them or like just avoiding it completely.

What are you talking about?

This is a pizza place, you know, that kind of thing.

So you're saying that a podcast that goes out to, what, a million?

Oh, please.

Our numbers are way higher.

Okay, I know.

Four million, whatever.

You're on our side.

I don't really follow the numbers or even listen, but I know it's a lot.

I know it's a lot.

You're one of the biggest podcasts in the world.

Okay.

Biggest podcast in the world.

And you're saying that wasn't Conan.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

I don't know if that would fly.

Okay.

Okay.

I want to say that I have just made some jokes today about, oh, you're not a real lawyer.

You are a lawyer.

You're a terrific lawyer.

We're lucky to have you.

I'm going to double down on maybe the best-looking guy on staff.

Sorry, Blay, but

Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

Thank you.

I try to get get on as many Zooms and meet in person.

You know, it does help

conversation.

It does help conversation.

It does.

It would help us.

Now, I don't know what's going on in your personal life.

What's happening there?

Connected!

Stop.

What?

You can't ask these questions.

I can't ask the lawyer.

Hey, guess what?

If you don't answer me, I'll fire you.

What are you going to do about that?

I'll tell you what I'll do with that.

I actually work for SiriusXM now.

Not Team Coco.

I don't know if you can fire me, Coco.

Because I'm a serious

phone call to Mr.

Scott Greenstein.

There you go.

And you also make it okay for you guys to have a relationship.

Hey, if you work for Siri XM, we can have a relationship.

My personal life.

Oh, wait.

Moon?

Out of control.

Out of control.

David, I applaud you.

I applaud your good works, your golden hue,

and everything that you do for this podcast.

He does.

He's like a Renaissance.

He's a Renaissance painting.

I don't know how they let him out of the Louvre without sending off an alarm.

David Melmed, our thanks to you.

Thanks for clearing this up.

And I guess we're- Clearing it up?

We can't sing a song.

I am no

closer to understanding anything.

We can't do anything.

It's good, though.

I think that's where we should leave it because we have plausible deniability if he educates us too much.

I consulted my lawyer and I'm still confused.

What are you going to do?

Sue me?

Uh-oh.

David, thank you.

Yes.

And when they go,

you, sir, you stole our money and it's here on this podcast.

And you go, I wasn't listening to that.

I was too busy sexually harassing my lawyer.

That's your default.

Sir, I was busy

making my lawyer very uncomfortable.

So you don't have a leg to stand on.

And what a leg.

Yeah.

You didn't even mean I didn't get started on his calves.

All right, peace out, Tupac.

But not going to say any of the song.

Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend with Conan O'Brien, Sonom Session, and Matt Gorley.

Produced by me, Matt Gorley.

Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Frost, and Nick Liao.

Theme song by The White Stripes.

Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino.

Take it away, Jimmy.

Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples.

Engineering and Mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns.

Additional production support by Mars Melnick.

Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and and Britt Kahn.

You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode.

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Explore the world's hidden wonders on the Atlas Obscura Podcast, a village in India where everyone's name is a song, a boiling river in the Amazon, a spacecraft cemetery in the middle of the ocean.

Every day, the Atlas Obscura podcast will blow your mind in 15 minutes.

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And don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.

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