Inside Crook County: Behind the Mic with Kyle Tekiela

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Speaker 10 Shocked today after an arrest in the infamous Gilgo Beach murders.

Speaker 13 The morning of July 14th, 2023 is one I'll never forget. The day they finally caught him.
Lisk, the Long Island serial killer.

Speaker 10 59-year-old Rex Human from Long Island is now charged in the murders of three women.

Speaker 13 10 years earlier, we had gone on our own hunt for Lisk. And even though we didn't find him, I had no idea how close we came.

Speaker 10 We're learning that Rex Human may have called a documentary filmmaker.

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Speaker 14 Yes, we're looking for you.

Speaker 13 But as we dug deeper, we discovered the hunt for a serial killer was only half the story.

Speaker 14 There's no other way to describe this except explosive.

Speaker 4 Former Suffolk County Chief of Police James Burke was put in handcuffs.

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Speaker 13 I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer. Available now.
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Speaker 10 Hello, everyone. Welcome to Inside Crook County, your exclusive backstage pass to the show.

Speaker 10 Today, I'm sitting down with Kyle Tequila, the creator and host of Crook County, to dig a little deeper into his process of turning a personal life story into a top 10 podcast.

Speaker 10 Before we get started, this interview is full of spoilers. So if you haven't listened to the show yet, I recommend that you pause, go binge the entire season on Tenderfoot Plus, and then pop back in.

Speaker 10 Hey, Kyle, thanks for sitting down with me today.

Speaker 2 Yeah, happy to be here, Laura.

Speaker 10 I'm really excited to connect.

Speaker 10 And, you know, this show is so personal to you that I feel like I already kind of have a sense of who you are, as do I imagine everybody else that's listened, especially on Tenderfoot Plus, where we just get to binge the entire story in

Speaker 10 24 hours, which is what I did.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 10 It's really engaging, you know, and I'm excited.

Speaker 2 This whole thing's been a whirlwind. I'm kind of speechless.
So, but thank you very much. It's amazing to hear stuff like that.

Speaker 10 So you're a film producer and you have a lot of other creative outlets, not necessarily podcasting. So why did you decide to create this show as a podcast and not as a film?

Speaker 2 That's a good question. Well, yeah, I've been producing movies since 2013.

Speaker 2 And anyone who is in the industry knows just how much of a behemoth producing a movie is and how awful and stressful and how much of a nightmare it is and how it can collapse at any moment.

Speaker 2 And if you're not fully committed and like 24-7 on with your brain and you can't live any other life except getting this movie off the ground. It's exhausting and it's a lot.

Speaker 2 And so I'd done probably seven movies or so in some kind of producer capacity.

Speaker 2 And I'd also been editing movies and working as what's called like a post-production supervisor on a bunch of other movies.

Speaker 2 I was just really, really burned out, I think, by the time this story really started to kind of come into fruition production-wise.

Speaker 2 And I'd finished two movies in a span of two years, and they both were coming out in theaters, like with pretty significant releases in like May and June of 2020. Wow.

Speaker 2 Which we we all know the theaters were completely closed because of COVID. So both those movies just were completely decimated at the box office.

Speaker 2 And it was like, I killed myself trying to get those two movies made. And so like just all that happening and then it just kind of going nowhere, just, it really hurt.
It really was a big blow.

Speaker 2 And, and I just wanted nothing to do with the industry for a while. And, you know, I had been recording the interviews with my dad on this show for.
for a while.

Speaker 2 And, you know, the seed of the idea to turn it into a podcast, besides just being kind of like a family archive, really, which was my original intent, was just to get these stories.

Speaker 2 Because I had no idea how long he had left to live because he was such a mess. Yeah.
And so I just wanted to have them so I can share them with my family and my son when he was old enough.

Speaker 2 I didn't really listen to podcasts.

Speaker 2 I think I probably listened to serial when it came out, the first one, because it was just like this huge, you know, nationwide thing that everyone was talking about.

Speaker 2 But I didn't really, I wasn't really into the podcast thing. And then for some reason, someone told me about Up and Vanished season one.

Speaker 2 And I listened to that. And I think that that kind of blew me away because it wasn't just people talking.

Speaker 2 Like there was so much production value that Payne put into it, you know, so much sound effects. And he really took the time to make it sound good and get the right microphone and mix it.

Speaker 2 And, you know, getting makeup and vanity set to do the music on that. It just felt like a theater of the mind.
It felt like a movie.

Speaker 2 And so that was when I go, oh my God, I could, I could do that with Crook County. Or it wasn't Crook County at the time.
It was just with my dad's fucked up story. And so

Speaker 2 then I started developing it as a podcast series at that time. And then when COVID hit and I was just so burned out of the industry, it was the perfect time for me to really

Speaker 2 do the show, to make it happen. And so I had a pilot episode prior to COVID actually done, sent it to Mavs.

Speaker 2 Actually, after I heard Up and Vanished and I heard that score, I was still producing one of those movies that was coming out in 2020. And I wanted him to score the movie.

Speaker 2 And so that's, I initially reached out to him for that. And he, you know, we became kind of fast friends.

Speaker 2 And then when I had the pilot for the podcast, I sent it to him and he was like, this is great. I'm going to send it to the guys if you don't mind.
And I was like, absolutely.

Speaker 2 So, and then they loved it. And they came to LA and we met up at a coffee shop and.
And we struck a deal. And then we seemed to be off to the races.
But

Speaker 2 I was still so burned out, even though mentally I wanted to do this podcast, I like just physically couldn't sit down and edit. Like I was just so done.

Speaker 2 And so nothing really happened until 2023 when I kind of like cleared that cache, you know, of like whatever disappointment and pain and anguish and

Speaker 2 started getting creative again and just started cutting, just crushing episodes, just really getting into it. And I was, I was just in the zone and pumped out a bunch of episodes.

Speaker 2 And I called Donald up and like you still want to do the show and he's like yeah so over the next year we finished the show and you sold it and we developed a plan to to get it out there and now here we are it's very exciting so it's a long journey to say the least yeah but I think I think it was totally worth the wait to wait till now absolutely and I mean the fact that the show the actual production once you got into the weeds of building each episode and then producing each episode, the fact that that took about a year makes a lot of sense to me because it is a very highly produced, in a good way, show.

Speaker 10 You know, there's so many elements to it. There's so many sound clips that you pull in from news.
And like it really brings people into the world that you grew up in and that your dad was living in.

Speaker 10 And I think, you know, if you'd put a show together in three months, it obviously would not have had nearly as many layers or depth.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 10 yeah, that time really shows.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a lot of,

Speaker 2 because it's really just me in a room. Yeah.
Doing all this by myself.

Speaker 2 So it's, it's literally just a lot of me just kind of like, just staring into space and letting my brain go, kind of fucking trying to pull threads and like make a story happen.

Speaker 2 And it's a lot of self-reflection too. So yeah, it does, it does take all that time to really get it right.

Speaker 10 Another creative outlet that you have in the show is your music. I think it's a really awesome Easter egg for listeners.
I didn't realize. initially that that was your band that was in the soundtrack.

Speaker 10 Can you talk a little bit about Starry Eyes' music and the songs that you featured in Crook County and how that all fits into the show?

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 it's kind of like one of those things. Another reason why I'm glad it didn't happen before 2020, you know, when I first started doing the pilot, is because I didn't have a band.

Speaker 2 I'd always been in music when I was a kid. Like that was the thing that I wanted to do.
Like I got my first guitar at 10 and I was. I started an original band at 10.

Speaker 2 We were called Malice and it was just like really heavy, like dark alternative, you know?

Speaker 2 For 10 year olds. For 10 year long hair and like black fingernails.
I was a little goth kid. And I played bands all throughout high school.

Speaker 2 I was in punk bands and I was in the Chicago scene that, you know, spawned Fallout Boy and the Academy is. And we were playing shows with Fallout Boy in garages and VFWs and community centers.

Speaker 2 And like we had this amazing punk rock scene. Obviously, that turned into like this huge nationwide phenomenon.
And in the early 2000s, it just went crazy.

Speaker 2 But by the time it all went crazy, I had, my dad was dealing with the heroin addiction and our family was falling apart.

Speaker 2 And it was like, I don't have the freedom anymore to like go out and be like a rock star and, you know, or like pretend to be a rock star and like, you know, be completely irresponsible and be broke.

Speaker 2 And like, I had to get a fucking job. And I got into film, which is almost as dumb.

Speaker 10 But it's glorified.

Speaker 2 There's at least kind of like jobs, you know? And so yeah, I got into film and in college, I went to SIU Southern Illinois University.

Speaker 2 I met this like group of nerds that had this TV show that aired on the Midwest PBS affiliate. And it was like a docuseries show.

Speaker 2 Like they would record these little five-minute documentaries that they'd drive all over the country. They'd find these crazy stories.
They'd interview them. They'd shoot them.
They'd come back.

Speaker 2 They'd edit it themselves. And then we packaged it into this little show and it would air on PBS.
And it was an amazing show. And it was an amazing experience.
And we ended up winning a ton of Emmys.

Speaker 2 It was a huge eye-opener. Like, I could actually do this as a career.
And so it gave me a a huge confidence boost.

Speaker 2 And, and I met a lot of the people that I ended up working with like in my career through that show. Like, a lot of these people moved to LA.
And before I moved to LA, I actually moved to Atlanta.

Speaker 2 That's where I started my real career as an editor. I was editing a bunch of stuff for TNT and TBS and movie trailers and whatnot.
But back to the music thing. So, music kind of went away.

Speaker 2 The guitar basically was collecting dust on the wall. And then,

Speaker 2 same thing, COVID hits, and I'm completely burned out. And I hate everyone.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I'm like, I just like, what am I doing with my life?

Speaker 2 And I started playing guitar again. And it was like this spark just lit.
And it was like, oh yeah, I used to fucking love music. And so

Speaker 2 I just like couldn't, I became obsessed. And I'm like, I need to, I need to write songs.
I need to do something. And so I went on Craigslist, good old Craigslist.

Speaker 2 And I found this dude, John, who had like, it was him and a drummer. And they had a bunch of songs that they had written, but it was just instrumentals.

Speaker 2 And they were like looking looking for a vocalist singer for like three years. And I, I, you know, Craigslisted them back.
And I'm like, hey, send me your demos.

Speaker 2 And they sent me the demos and they were great. They were the songs.
And so I started writing the lyrics.

Speaker 2 And so, yeah, like the songs that are in the main titles and the end titles, Aloha, Crush, and No Show, a lot of that, I mean, all of it really is about, is about those issues and about my dad's heroin addiction, about me trying to put him through rehab, about him telling me this fucked up story about his life and how am I supposed to deal with that shit.

Speaker 2 Like, what does that mean all that so when this whole thing actually came together in 2023 as a show the music was there the podcast was there and it was just this perfect marriage to kind of like put everything together in one package and completely just like purge all it was like just the biggest therapy session ever to get it out so i feel so light i feel like i can fly right now just so happy to have all this shit off my back

Speaker 10 So note to anyone who's dealing with really tough family stories, make a podcast, publish it to millions of people and write it better and write an album.

Speaker 10 Yeah, music is a really incredible way to process anything.

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 10 Is there anywhere that people can go and just listen to these songs a little more in-depth since we get clips of them in the show, but we don't really get the full start-to-finish song?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, anywhere you stream music, they're out there.

Speaker 2 Spotify, Apple Music, whatever.

Speaker 2 Quick plug.

Speaker 10 And the band is called Starry Eyes.

Speaker 2 Starry Eyes. We have two albums out.
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Speaker 10 You talked about initially gathering these stories and interviewing your dad with the intention of this being a family archive, not something public. Yeah.

Speaker 10 Can you talk a little bit about that process of when you actually first started interviewing him and what that looked like? And then if that shifted as you decided this was going to become

Speaker 2 something for the public rather than just for your own family's kind of internal processing when I first learned about all this, besides the heroine, the heroin was an ongoing thing for years and years and years.

Speaker 2 In 2013, he called me and I had been estranged with him for from him for about five years. Yeah.
And so when he called me, it was odd because I don't talk to him at this point.

Speaker 2 And when I do talk to him, it's like, fuck you. You know, it's like really not, it's not healthy at all.
So when he called me, he was just like, he was a wreck.

Speaker 2 And he was like vulnerable and emotional. And I was shocked.
It's like, what the, what is this? And it was, I, this is basically my last day. Like, I'm done.
I'm dying and I'm done. And I need help.

Speaker 2 And you're the only one that can help me. Because everyone had cut him out at this point.

Speaker 2 So he comes to his firstborn son to save the day. And so I, um, I heard him out and I felt, I felt sympathy for him.

Speaker 2 I mean, he was a great dad growing up until he wasn't, until the drugs turned him into a monster. And by this time, I was healthy in my career.

Speaker 2 I was healthy in my, I had a wife and we were already talking about raising a kid. I, I was, I was healthy.
I'm healthy and I'm in a good place. And I felt like I could do it.

Speaker 2 So I immediately kind of like figured out rehabs, like whatever that means. I started calling around.

Speaker 2 I got him a spot at this detox facility in Southern California and then put him on a flight from Chicago to LA the next morning. And I picked him up at the airport.

Speaker 2 And he just was this skeleton of a person. It was really awful.
I mean, like, he didn't have a belt on. His pants were just like falling down.
He's constantly lifting his pants up.

Speaker 2 Just really sad, really sad state. And, you know, I drove him to the airport and it was pretty much a silent drive.

Speaker 2 And so I dropped him off. And that's what you do.
You drop him off and you leave. And then he started getting clean, as you do, hopefully.
And then I would visit him.

Speaker 2 And then he would slowly start opening up all this stuff to me. And it wasn't a lot.
It was just like, you don't really know who I am. And, you know, I used to do bad things.

Speaker 2 And, you know, it was just like a lot of little hints, you know, little breadcrumbs kind of thing. Wow.
I don't know if he's on drugs.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't know if it's like some heroin hangover or if, you know, he's just like hallucinating. I don't, I don't really take any of this stuff, you know, on face value.

Speaker 2 So when he does get sober, and I know he's sober, and we were having conversations, and he's like, kind of like, you know, the old Ken is, I can kind of see it a little bit.

Speaker 2 And then that's when he really laid it out for me. And it was just like,

Speaker 2 what are you talking about? Like, what?

Speaker 2 So I gave him an iPad and I said, write this shit down. Like, just in your time, in your spare time.
And he was staying with me for like a couple of days, too, and you would go back and forth.

Speaker 2 And then just like, whatever thought you have, just write it all out. Because it was hard for him to get it out.
Like, he would say it, then he'd stop and be like, I don't want to talk about that.

Speaker 2 You know, he'd like shut it down again. So I'm like, just write it down in your own time.
And then, like, one day, it was probably a year or two later.

Speaker 2 It was like 40 pages, like, you know, kind of autobiography, all over the place, scatter brain, you know. But I read it and it was just like, it's the story.
It's the story. It's Crook County.

Speaker 2 It's insane. So I spent a good amount of time kind of like organizing the thoughts, asking him other questions and telling him to send me little voice memos every now and then if he has a thought.

Speaker 2 And I just started compiling information and materials. And at the same time, I was really busy doing movie stuff.
So I just like, there wasn't a podcast. There wasn't anything.

Speaker 2 It was just like working on my dad,

Speaker 2 having him purge all these things. And then in 2017, that's when I heard Up and Vanished, like I said, and I was like, this could be a podcast, you know?

Speaker 2 And that's when I pulled out the recorder and he was ready and I was ready and he was sober at this time. And he was working in a rehab facility, you know, helping people stay clean.

Speaker 2 It was kind of like his, his penance for his life of crime and what he felt like he had to do.

Speaker 2 And we just started recording.

Speaker 2 And over a couple of years, we got all this material. And then I would go and fly out.
And I, I, you know, got my mom in Chicago, got my brother, got my dad's twin brother rich.

Speaker 2 I, you know, found his old paramedic firefighter partner his high school girlfriend you know just like all these things started pulling clips started learning about the mafia like just all this research really dive in and then you know and then the rest is history i put it all together and now here we are but uh but yeah you know so the the question was how do you transition from family archives to that and it was Creatively, I had to insert, I realized I had to insert myself into the story

Speaker 2 to tell the story as opposed to just like having this be like archival footage that I could share. You know, here's an hour interview with your dad kind of thing or your grandpa kind of thing.
Right.

Speaker 2 So that's, that was the change. That was the flip that I, that I had to do.

Speaker 10 What was that like?

Speaker 2 Therapeutic and very lonely because I was just sitting in my room like just thinking for weeks and weeks and weeks.

Speaker 2 And just like, then I'd write a little something and then I'd tie two pieces of footage together with this little thought that I had. Right.

Speaker 2 And it was just like this slow like brick-laying process that took a long time. You know, how do you connect all these dots? Right.

Speaker 2 Because it's three, it's three, four decades of stuff, plus my life, you know, and how it affected us and how it affected everybody else. So it was a lot, but I learned a lot.

Speaker 2 I could do, I can be a lot more efficient at that now, I think, through this process. I know how to do it.

Speaker 10 Has the process of doing this show, you know, recording these interviews, reaching out to your family and extended community, has it shifted how your family operates?

Speaker 2 That's interesting. You know,

Speaker 2 they're a bunch of stubborn bastards. Let me tell you.

Speaker 2 But I will say that this whole process has brought us a lot closer together. Yeah.
And I think, you know, one of the morals of this whole thing is

Speaker 2 secrets kill.

Speaker 2 And you can't have a functioning family unit when everyone's holding on to shit and burying, burying realities.

Speaker 2 you know what i mean because they're they're not fun they're ugly and so for us i forced everybody to dig this shit up and say it to me say it to my face and put it out there and i have these conversations and i i think just like it it was cathartic for me it was really cathartic for everybody else too

Speaker 2 so yeah in a way now that it's all out there and especially now that it's out in the world and people are hearing it and they're getting like my mom's getting facebooked by people like holy like what you know

Speaker 2 it's it's like there's nothing left to hide. And now, and they're almost like, it's, it's weird.
It's like they feel lighter. Like I just said, I feel like I float.

Speaker 2 Like everyone feels a lot lighter now. It's like, yeah.
Like, and, and because they're not being persecuted like they thought they would be persecuted by sharing this stuff.

Speaker 2 People are actually like sympathizing and empathizing and being like, oh my God, you know, and like feeling the need to to help or be friends again or, you know, reignite an old friendship or whatever.

Speaker 2 They're like, oh my God, now I understand why you were were the way you were or why you, you know, why things happened and why we fell up, our relationship fell apart.

Speaker 2 It's like all, everything has been kind of

Speaker 2 glued back together again in a weird way. So yeah, it's very healthy.

Speaker 10 That's so beautiful. That's really cool.
Are you, are you still the only one in touch with your dad or has anybody else made contact with him?

Speaker 2 99.9% me. Every now and then he'll text my mom and she's, she just wants nothing to do with him.
So she'll just be like, whatever can, you know, kind of thing. That's my mom's voice.
Whatever can.

Speaker 2 And then my brother wanted nothing to do with him for years. I mean, really, like high school for him was a nightmare.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And he hadn't talked to him for over 10 years. So I'll share a little secret with you.
We

Speaker 2 had this sit-down on Christmas two months ago, my mom, my brother, and myself. And I played him all the episodes.
We sat down in this, in this room, and we played eight episodes episodes straight.

Speaker 2 And we drank a shit ton of wine.

Speaker 2 We got really drunk and we got really emotional and we just hashed all this shit out.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it was, again, really healthy. But in the middle of it, it was the craziest thing.
In the middle of it, my dad texts me and he says, and he says, I'm going to kill myself today.

Speaker 10 Seriously?

Speaker 2 Yes, I have the text. And

Speaker 2 it's the hot, it's Christmas. He's got no family.
He's fucked.

Speaker 2 His head is fucked still. And, you know, poor, the guy's a mess.
He really is.

Speaker 2 As much as I try to help him, but he's still a fucking mess. And I go, whoa, I pull up my phone.
I'm like, you guys, Ken just texted me and read this. And I put it out and they read it.

Speaker 2 And my brother goes, fuck that. Give me that fucking phone.
I'm going to FaceTime him right now. It was the first time he ever said anything like that in like over 10 years.

Speaker 2 And so he FaceTimed my dad. And I have it all recorded.
And he just confronted him and just let him have it like 10, 12 years of all this backlog backlog of hates and pain and things he wanted to say.

Speaker 2 And he just fucking crushed him. And it was, it was crazy.
It was super healthy for him. And at the end of it, they were kind of like both kind of laughing a little bit.
It was wild. It was wild.

Speaker 2 And so I'm going to, I'm going to release some bonus episodes that has a lot of this like kind of present day stuff going on, this present day drama. Wow.
Welcome to the tequila family.

Speaker 2 Never a dull moment.

Speaker 10 That is kind of the opposite action I would expect someone to take if they heard that their dad was feeling suicidal.

Speaker 10 He's like, I'm going to let him have it because in case he goes, I have to get this off my chest kind of thing. Yeah.

Speaker 2 No, it was kind of cool.

Speaker 10 It was a life, it sounds like, right?

Speaker 2 It totally like knocked him off that

Speaker 2 train of thought. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because that's literally what he said. He's like, what the fuck are you thinking? Right.
Texting your son, who's like done nothing but help you that you're going to fucking kill yourself.

Speaker 2 Like you're putting that weight on your, on Kyle. Like, what is wrong with you? And he just, he just crushed him.
It was, was, it was pretty incredible.

Speaker 10 I mean, the thing that comes through in the show from both you and your brother and your mom is the fact that there's still so much love there. And I think that's what that is.

Speaker 10 It's like, if you are angry, you still care. If your brother didn't love your dad still, despite everything,

Speaker 10 he wouldn't have cared. He'd have seen that text and not,

Speaker 10 you know, bothered.

Speaker 2 C'est la vie. But yeah, I know you're 100% right.

Speaker 10 It's, I mean, it's really so vulnerable to put this out into the world, but I think a lot of people live

Speaker 10 with these huge secrets and these weights that sit on their shoulders. Like you were saying, everyone feels lighter, even though it's been really painful and really messy.

Speaker 10 And y'all's way of processing it, you know, is not necessarily what like a textbook therapist would be like, this is the proper way to process these sorts of things, you know, but it works for you guys.

Speaker 10 And it's created a lot of healing.

Speaker 10 and i think it's really cool to share that so publicly because it has the potential to really connect with a lot of other people that are in similarly messy situations that might feel like they're past forgiveness like your dad i imagine does you know and anyway i just think it's very courageous to share stuff that's this intense and personal really

Speaker 2 is so freeing yeah Like it really is. Like, I don't care what people think of me at all.
Like, dude, this is exactly who I am. Yeah.
And this is my fucked up family. Enjoy.

Speaker 10 And it's amazing that it sounds like you've been met with a lot of compassion rather than vitriol, which is wonderful.

Speaker 2 Honestly, if you're mad at me for this, fuck you. You're an asshole.

Speaker 10 So

Speaker 10 who helped you with the show? Did you, you've, you've basically already covered that you just did this on your own mostly, but you did work with Tenderfoot.

Speaker 10 Can you talk a little bit about that process of building a team and who you worked with and how you worked with other people on this?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it was a one-man band. I mean, all production was me.
All the editing, the music, sound effects, the sound design, whatever, all that. Like, me, me, me.

Speaker 2 You know, it's like a, it's like a college film,

Speaker 2 you know, shot by me, edited by me, all that. But Tenderfoot is, they're so efficient and professional, and they know this space so well.

Speaker 2 Donald is the one I work with day-to-day on this and maps for the score. But Donald's like, it's got got to be eight episodes and two bonus episodes.
Like he gives me the format, right?

Speaker 2 You know, there's going to be two mid-rolls. So plan for that.
Okay. So I know I could, I basically did 30-minute show, which was always my plan.
I didn't want some like droning hour-long.

Speaker 2 It's just too much. You know, some things, hours perfect, but like, I just felt like it would just be too much at an hour on this show.
So I was like, always like 30 minutes.

Speaker 2 So I was like, okay, I do literally three 10 minute chunks like and just break it up like it very episodically, like a TV show. And so like, that the form is tenderfoot.

Speaker 2 Like, that's their, that's their guidance. And then, you know, I, I filled it all with tent music from Mavs, actually.
He sent me just his library of stuff, like, you know, that to cut to.

Speaker 2 And then he crafted an original score once everything was locked. Cool.
And which is amazing because he's such a beast. He's so talented.
He really just elevates everything he touches.

Speaker 2 So thank you, Mavs, bud. You're great.
And then

Speaker 2 as far as trailers and stuff, you know, again, that's them. Like, this wasn't a video thing.

Speaker 2 He's like, you need, you need a two-minute, you need a 60, you need a 30, you need video stuff, you need personal stuff for you. You got to fucking learn how to do TikTok, you got to dance.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, all that stuff is tenderfoot. And, you know, a lot of conversations between Donald and I'm like, you know, like, what, what do you think we should do with this?

Speaker 2 Like, should I hold this story back? Is it like stuff like that? You know, he was kind of like an advisor in that front.

Speaker 2 But, but yeah, I mean, for the most part, it's me sitting in a room by myself, just staring at a computer screen, pressing buttons. Wow.

Speaker 10 That is very intense.

Speaker 2 Very lonely. Extremely lonely.

Speaker 10 Has your dad listened to the show?

Speaker 2 He listened to the pilot. Okay.

Speaker 2 And we played it for him and we sat down with him and

Speaker 2 it was a lot for him.

Speaker 2 It's one thing for him to

Speaker 2 finally unveil all of these things to me.

Speaker 2 But another to listen to it back in this packaged movie thing, you know, like

Speaker 2 it kind of messed with him a bit

Speaker 2 and he didn't he was kind of speechless for a while he didn't know what to say and then it it scared him he's like oh my god like it's

Speaker 2 it's like a thing like it's not just my it's like a thing now

Speaker 2 and then so we had to talk about that and that that leads into the well are you comfortable even doing this and so eventually he was like once once that shock of like oh my god this is a thing now wore off and he understands and he knows i'm a film producer He knows what I do.

Speaker 2 He knows that I, I, he trusted me to tell it the right way.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 once that all kind of settled itself out, he was totally at peace with it and supportive of it and always asking me if I needed any more stories or, you know, whatever, any more clarification on anything, you know, as I'm in production, as I'm editing all the stuff.

Speaker 2 And, you know, even nowadays, like every now and then he'll hit me up with a voice memo. It's just some whacked out crazy thing.
And he's like, I don't know if you need that or not, but there it is.

Speaker 2 So I've got just a folder just full of insanity voice memos from him.

Speaker 2 But yeah, so I mean, he's, and I told him, like, hey, the show is coming out February 11th, dad. That's great, son.
You know, congrats, you know, you're so proud of you, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 You know, so there are moments where we have like normal human conversations and then they like spiral into like,

Speaker 2 I'm going to fucking kill myself, you know, kind of stuff. It's very odd.
It's very, a lot of, a lot of like, almost like bipolar conversations.

Speaker 2 But yeah, so I mean, he's 100% supportive of it to answer your question.

Speaker 10 I think it's really interesting. I don't remember what episode it is that you mentioned this, but he talks about how

Speaker 10 he

Speaker 10 never shared his story in AA.

Speaker 10 You know, like he wasn't comfortable in that setting sharing these things. And now that same person is confronting the fact that

Speaker 10 millions of people are hearing his story.

Speaker 2 It's just one thing to tell it to a group and the other just to like not even, like, just pretend it's not even happening and then it's on the radio, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 2 And you're not a part of the experience.

Speaker 10 Yeah, I suppose that's what it is. It's, it's just interesting.
It sort of fits with the picture you paint of your dad of this like life of extremes, you know?

Speaker 2 Very much so.

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Speaker 10 So you mention in... Episode three that you talk to a criminal defense attorney and he encourages you not to release the story?

Speaker 10 Is

Speaker 10 your dad concerned about that? Are you concerned about it at all? Your dad's rebuttal was that he thinks that everybody that he talks about is dead, but he's not.

Speaker 10 And he goes on mic and admits to committing a number of murders, basically.

Speaker 10 So, can you just talk a little bit more about how he's reconciled that, how you've reconciled that? If there's any kind of concern or fear showing up now that you've released this,

Speaker 2 no, if anything, there's less fear.

Speaker 10 Interesting. Okay.

Speaker 2 You know, because your brain goes when it's all conceptual.

Speaker 2 And, you know, you think of all the worst things that can happen.

Speaker 2 And of course, it's like, yes, you think that everyone's dead because you were the kid, but like it's different when it's conceptual versus reality.

Speaker 2 And, you know, it's not just the mafia that could be, you know, coming for him, but it's also law enforcement or FBI. You know, there's no statute of limitations on murder.
So.

Speaker 2 Yes, all these things are going through my head, which is why I talked to this attorney. And of course, I'm asking my dad all this stuff.
And I think really what it boils down to is it's two things.

Speaker 2 One, we decided not to name names in the show. We decided not to dig up bodies in the show.

Speaker 2 We, we do a lot of, we take a lot of creative license in telling the story without revealing incriminating details.

Speaker 2 And I think I do a pretty good job balancing that. And two, he is just at a very interesting point in his life where he's right at the end of it.
He's not healthy. And he has nothing left to lose.

Speaker 2 And just getting this burden off of his chest is the most important thing.

Speaker 2 And putting it out there in the world. Also, it's monetary.
Like he made a little cash on this deal. Let's just be honest.
You know, he doesn't have any money. He's broke.

Speaker 2 He's living on Social Security. He's not.
He's basically borderline in poverty. He was living under a bridge for six months two years ago.
Like, he was literally homeless. I mean, he's a he's a wreck.

Speaker 2 And so, like, you know, I'm able to pay for rent for him now. And I bought him a car and he's stable.
Like, his situation is stable. And so, there's just like all those things.

Speaker 2 And it's like, if karma is going to come get me, then like karma come get me. That's, that's where he stands.
I don't feel like I'm in any danger whatsoever.

Speaker 2 Cause again, I'm not dropping names and I'm not. digging up bodies.
My role in this is to learn about my father. You know, I'm not here to point fingers or blame anybody.
So I don't feel anything.

Speaker 2 And now that it's out, I've gotten a few DMs on Instagram, like when the trailer came out, from Chicago names that I know. Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 And that was a heartbeat moment when I, when I saw that name pop up in my messages. And it's kind of funny.
It was a very simple message. It was like, this looks cool.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, is that the most ominous

Speaker 2 chill threat I've ever heard in my life? Or what, like, or does he actually like it? So I don't know. So I wrote back and I'm like, and I say last name as in last name.

Speaker 2 And he goes, yeah, that's my grandfather. And I'm like, oh, God, here we go.
Wow.

Speaker 2 And then I write, I'm like, don't worry. It's not some like snitch fest.
So it's really just like a father-son story, blah, blah, blah. And I hope you like it.

Speaker 2 Nothing for like a day. And I'm like, oh, God, it's already happening.
I'm done. My worst fears are coming true.

Speaker 2 And then, and then the next day he hits me up and he's like, actually, this is, I have a book that I want to write and I have a screenplay. And like, this is so cool.

Speaker 2 Like, you're doing it how I would do it. And it was like, oh, everyone just wants to fucking tell their story.
Like, no one cares anymore.

Speaker 2 As long as you're not saying that guy did it, you know, you're like, people just want to tell their story. So again, I feel, I feel better about everything.

Speaker 2 So yeah, it's been, it's been a really weird, been a really weird journey so far, to say the least.

Speaker 10 Yeah. Well, and to embark on that journey too, during the pandemic is particularly intense because everything is closed down and you're closed down and you're digging into these really dark things.

Speaker 2 You know, it's just, it's very drinking a lot of wine. As did drinking.
As did everybody.

Speaker 10 That was the thing to do in 2020 and 2021.

Speaker 10 But it is so cool to hear about this trajectory of, it really is a story of like from the darkness to the light.

Speaker 10 You know, it sounds so cheesy to say that, but I just keep hearing you over and over again talk about how beautiful this has been to like open that up. And I love it.

Speaker 10 And I hope that it encourages other people to do that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, me too.

Speaker 10 This is a great segue into my next question, which is, what do you hope people gain from listening to this show and to your family story?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, it's really simple.

Speaker 2 Like I said earlier, secrets kill people. And so there's also the themes of

Speaker 2 addiction and getting help and alcoholics

Speaker 2 or anonymous, you know, narco anonymous, cocaine anonymous. You know, there's all the anonymouses.

Speaker 2 And there's so much value in seeking help.

Speaker 2 And it's really hard to admit that you need help. It's so, it's like almost one of the hardest things, especially like in Italian families.
You just don't, you just eat it.

Speaker 2 Sorry. You don't, you don't tell anybody about it.
You fucking choke on it. So yeah, I think it's just really important, you know, and my dad never would have gotten help.

Speaker 2 Like I had to, he had to call me on his fucking,

Speaker 2 he had a, he was going to kill himself. He had his, he had a gun in his hand.
And so he had to get to that point to, to seek help. But he didn't, he didn't seek help.

Speaker 2 He sought my help, you know, not a therapist. And so I had to basically put him into a situation where there was therapy.
And even then, he was, he didn't want to tell anybody anything.

Speaker 2 But just being in an environment where people are seeking help and

Speaker 2 dealing with their issues kind of publicly, it's really, it's, you know, it can be the best thing you ever do.

Speaker 2 You know, I've never met someone that's gone to AA and said it was terrible, a terrible idea. You know, yeah, a lot of people relapse, but that's not AA's fault.
That's, that's you.

Speaker 2 Like, that's you not following the program and that's you giving back into the to the demons or the depression or whatever it is and you know it's it's hard it's a battle it's a constant battle it's a lifelong battle and um it takes a lot of strength but you have to take that first step and so i hope there's a little bit of that in there a little bit of hope for people maybe a little inspiration everyone knows somebody that's addicted to something

Speaker 10 your dad's story of addiction was not something that i expected to show up in the show you know because just because you look at we listen to the trailer and you're like, okay, this is going to be, you know, a mafia story.

Speaker 10 And then you put it right in episode two. It's like

Speaker 10 you get the first impression of your dad and then you immediately bring in his heroin addiction, which happened a little later than the full story. Like you kind of jump in time a little bit.

Speaker 10 Why was it important for you to have that not chronologically ordered? Like bring that in early.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you know, this, because this never was a mafia show. Yeah, fair.
It's not a third-person,

Speaker 2 whatever, rehashing of things that happened, you know, and news clips and whatever. It's like it's my story.
It's my relationship with my dad who fucked up big time.

Speaker 2 And I thought he was just a piece of shit heroin addict. But no, he actually had this insane history that I could never have even imagined that played a huge role in why he's a fucking heroin addict.

Speaker 10 Right.

Speaker 2 And so it's like two sides of the same coin. You have to tell both sides of the story.
and you have to lay them out. And I did it.
I kind of did it naked. Like mafia, like it's just full.

Speaker 2 Episode one is mafia. Episode two is fucked up family and heroin.
And then you smash them together and you start mixing it up. And that's what happens for the rest of the episodes.

Speaker 2 I'm just like mixing up this bowl of, you know, pain,

Speaker 2 pain and anguish.

Speaker 2 But the cookies are delicious.

Speaker 10 Well, it's, I mean, it's effective. Like as a listener with absolutely no context going in, it gave me a very different perspective on your dad from the get-go.

Speaker 10 You know, and instead of, you know, it ending up in this, you can just dismiss him as a terrible person.

Speaker 10 It's like you have this layer of, okay, I understand how he ended up where he ended up and all the layers of trauma and all of the things.

Speaker 2 That's a really interesting point that I think has been really surprising is the amount of people who have said, wow, he was actually a really good guy and he really loved you guys.

Speaker 2 It's like they say that for like that's like, yes, he killed people.

Speaker 2 He's in the mafia, but like their takeaway is that he, at the end of the day, like he was actually a good person who was put in a really bad situation and then just, it got completely out of control.

Speaker 2 And I think, I think a lot of that's true. I mean, obviously he made those decisions, you know, and he did those things.
And you can't ignore that. That's awful.

Speaker 2 But, but people are super complex and no, there's no such thing as a real monster. I mean, maybe there is like super sociopathic people, but but he's not a sociopath.
I don't think.

Speaker 2 I think he is actually just a really complex person who found a way to deal with his awful child, like, you know, how he was recruited as a 17-year-old kid living on the streets and how he basically was just like ended up in that life and how he was able to kind of get out of that life and start a family and raise a family who loved him and be a great dad.

Speaker 2 You know, he, he's just like, he's kind of this guy who just like fell into a pit and dug himself out of it, but the pit's pit's still there. And all you got to do is look and, oh, there's the pit.

Speaker 2 You know, you just had to find the pit.

Speaker 2 And so, yeah, it's like the complexity of him as a person, I think, is what makes this show really, really special and different because it's not just some like good guy, bad guy, mafia thing.

Speaker 2 You know, we're all, we're all a little fucked up and we're all, we can all be really good too at the same time, you know?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 10 I think the show does a really good job of that. And I think that theme, I mean, that theme is something that a lot of Tenderfoot shows explore too, is the humanity, you know, part of the picture.
And

Speaker 10 no one's story is straightforward. Like you said, there are some people whose brains are very different and they get pushed into these very like dark places.

Speaker 10 But a lot of people who end up committing crimes are kind of, I think, in situations more like your dad, where it's less their choice than externally people perceive it is.

Speaker 2 Yeah. A lot of external pressures and a forcing of the hand and all that kind of stuff.
Yeah. I mean, of course, at the end of the day, they could just say no and walk away or try to, but it's true.

Speaker 2 It's hard. It's really hard.
That's true. Yeah.

Speaker 10 So at the end of the season, you have this kind of call to action for listeners to reach out to you with questions and comments.

Speaker 10 And you've touched a little bit on some of the things you've heard from people, but is there anything that you've heard from folks so far that's really impacted you that you want to share with everybody?

Speaker 2 You know, I got a comment yesterday and it was someone, basically what you just said, like I I wasn't expecting the addiction stuff and I had battled addiction and that really struck a note with me, how he said that AA saved his life because AA saved my life.

Speaker 2 So there's that connection, I think, is going to land with a lot of people. Someone this morning reached out to me that I went to high school with that obviously had no idea about any of this stuff.

Speaker 2 I said, I don't know if you know this, but my dad died of alcoholism when I was 15. And he battled it for a really long time.
And it was a private thing that we kept within the family.

Speaker 2 and um hearing your dad story now and understanding is like it makes me want to tell my story you know so it's a lot of

Speaker 2 i think i think it really it's like triggering people in a good in a positive way to

Speaker 2 to like rem to i guess embrace these really hard things that have happened to them in their past instead of hide it i think that's beautiful

Speaker 10 So what's next for Kirk County?

Speaker 2 Well, there's going to be a bunch of other seasons of of it. I'm trying, I have ideas for it.

Speaker 2 I would love to, there's so much going on with my dad currently, things that I have not even talked to you about yet that are wild that

Speaker 2 I might be able to squeeze into a season two, like a continuation story. If I can, great.

Speaker 2 If I can't, then I'm going to do other stories like under the banner of Kirk County, you know, because in the same kind of way I did this one, you know, it's going to be thoughtful and a lot of humanity

Speaker 2 mixed with the bad. But then immediately we are pitching this as a TV series, you know, like a prestige show, you know, like Sopranos meets Dexter, meets Fargo, meets Chicago Fire.

Speaker 2 We didn't even talk about that. The whole paramedic firefighter thing, you know, that's such a unique angle to his story, you know, to be a first responder who's a mafia asset.

Speaker 2 You know, he's a hero by day and a hitman by night. Like, that's, that's a show.
Let's go, HBO. What are we talking about?

Speaker 2 We'll see. We're working on that.

Speaker 10 We didn't talk about that, but that whole trajectory, I think that's part of why, you know, folks are reaching out and saying, your dad was a good, a good guy, clearly loved you, because he so obviously was trying to do better.

Speaker 10 You know, the fact that he wanted to be a firefighter, it's like such a complete balancing effect for what he's doing. You know, it's like hitman, and then you save lives.
And like that is the goal.

Speaker 10 And so it's, it's so clear that he, yeah, wanted to do better. And, um,

Speaker 10 I mean, it's a great show.

Speaker 10 So where can people get in touch with you to stay updated about all this that's coming next? Maybe send you a story potentially if they have something that could fit.

Speaker 10 I don't know if that's something that you're looking for, but what do you suggest people do if they want to stay in touch with you in the show?

Speaker 2 Sure. You just send me a postcard.

Speaker 2 Go to the mail. Yeah.
You know, I've got all the social stuff. So you, I, I control Crook County Podcast Instagram account.
And the website has like a email feature and a contact.

Speaker 2 And there's also a voicemail thing that actually I want to do. I want people to leave me voicemails and I want to play them on a bonus episode.

Speaker 2 So go to crookcountypodcast.com and leave me a voicemail. Ask me a question.
Tell me how you feel about the show, whatever. You can call me a douchebag.
That's fun. I'll talk to everybody.
So

Speaker 2 pretty available.

Speaker 10 Awesome. Thank you so much, Kyle.
This was really fun. I really appreciate your time.
And I'm excited to share share this with everyone on Tenderfoot Plus.

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