Ex-Scammer Reveals Shocking Fraud Tactics | Matthew Cox DSHH #1311

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Speaker 4 What about, I've got, I've got original bank statements. What am I supposed to do? How else do I do this? And that's really as simple as it is.

Speaker 4 So the point is, is that I would get calls from banks every once in a while and say, hey, this is fucked up. This is what's going on.

Speaker 4 And I sat there and just said, look, I don't know what you want me to tell you.

Speaker 4 You know, I can give you the money back. Let me just cut you a check.
And they go, oh, that's too late for that.

Speaker 4 All right, guys, we got Matthew Cox here today. One of the craziest stories I've ever heard, man.
Thanks for coming on to the no problem. You've been busy podcasting these days, huh?

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's my full-time gig. Yeah.
When you made that switch four years ago, you said? Yeah, well, it wasn't my full-time gig four years ago. It takes, you know, it takes some time.

Speaker 4 It's probably by the last couple of years, it's been full-time. Like, we've been paying all my bills.
You know when I like the fucking, you start off and it takes a while.

Speaker 4 Was that adjustment really hard when you got out of prison to adjust back to the real world?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I lived in someone's spare room. Well, I lived in a rooming house essentially for about 18 months.
And then I got a one-bedroom. And in the one bedroom, I basically started the podcast.

Speaker 4 So I was about to be, it's about probably a year out.

Speaker 4 Was it? But yeah, it was definitely, definitely an adjustment. First of all, I'd never been on, look, I'd never held an iPhone.
I'd never been on YouTube.

Speaker 4 I'd never, so all the things that you take for granted that you just know, imagine having to learn all of that. Like,

Speaker 4 I had no idea how anything worked. It was, everything was like magic.

Speaker 4 So yeah, you got out of it. It was a whole new world.
At social media. Yeah.
13 years, like everything changed. Keep in mind when I got locked up, Facebook had been out about a year.

Speaker 4 I mean, I'd never been on it. MySpace was a thing.
Wow. Can you, so you can imagine how, you know, my, I had when my phone went, you know, it had just come out maybe a year before I got locked up.

Speaker 4 Texting was a big deal, bro.

Speaker 4 The keyboard phones, right? Yeah, yeah. You can text people.
I didn't even know what that was.

Speaker 4 So, yeah, I was. Did you have one in prison, a phone?

Speaker 4 No, no. I was a good inmate.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4 You know, like these guys get in there and they're, you know, they're, they're doing, you know, drugs and they're hustling and they're, they've sneaking cell phones.

Speaker 4 And like, I, you know, I don't have the energy for that.

Speaker 4 I mean, you got out early. So.
Yeah. I got out.
I got my time cut by 12 years, which is crazy. Yeah.
That's really impressive, actually, because you were supposed to serve 26, right? Yeah.

Speaker 4 I'm supposed to be in prison right now. Yeah.
And you, you got out at 13? Yeah. That's nuts, man.
Was that the plan when you got in to kind of reduce it as much as possible?

Speaker 4 Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker 4 Well, first of all, the plan, there wasn't much of of a plan because I never thought I was going to end up with getting 26 years, like you know, and then everybody says, Well, when you got 26 years, did you so man, did you think you were going to do 26 years?

Speaker 4 I actually had this conversation yesterday with a friend of mine, and I thought I never really let it kind of sink in, maybe a little bit here or there, but I always thought to myself that at some point they'll send me to a camp and I'll escape, I'll leave the camp.

Speaker 4 Wow. But you know, the BOP, they like they know what they're doing.
Like, they don't, even though when I came into the system,

Speaker 4 I had,

Speaker 4 I had

Speaker 4 like, I had like two points for your security level. Well, so a camp's like under 10.

Speaker 4 So I had two. I should have gone to a camp, but because I had so much time, they sent me to a medium.
And until you get below 20 years, they can't send you to a low. So then I go to a low.

Speaker 4 After three years, I go to a low. And it's like, okay.

Speaker 4 So now I'm in a low, but they won't send you to a camp until you're under 10 years.

Speaker 4 So I'm doing, I'm going to do a significant amount of time before I get to

Speaker 4 have the ability to go to a camp. And they know during that period of time, most guys, you can send people that have been down a significant amount of time to a camp because they won't run.

Speaker 4 Because by that point, your expectations of life have lowered to such a degree, you kind of, you're okay with being in prison, but you hear these guys who they're scared to get out or they get out and they feel sick and they, and that's true.

Speaker 4 Like when I got out, I was super uncomfortable. Like I, you know, you get counted every day at four at four o'clock.

Speaker 4 Well, you get counted multiple times a day, but the big one's four o'clock and then 10 o'clock. But I mean, around four o'clock every day for about a year, I got super anxious.
Wow. Like sick.

Speaker 4 Like I felt like I'm supposed to be in my cell. I'm I'm supposed to be counted.

Speaker 4 Every time somebody knocked at the door, I kept thinking this, that happened for about six months with a knock at the door where I kept thinking to myself, they're, they're here.

Speaker 4 Like they came to get me because they realized they shouldn't have let me out. Like something went wrong.
They're coming to get me because I didn't feel I felt so un

Speaker 4 you know, it was so unnatural to be outside.

Speaker 4 So did you have any problems with anyone in prison, like any fights or anything?

Speaker 4 I mean, I did, like, but not like bad. Like there was no, you know, the guys that come on here and you have to stab people and this and that.

Speaker 4 Like I went to a medium and there were those guys there, but those those are like when gang members show up

Speaker 4 or there were maybe

Speaker 4 30 white guys on the first compound I was on, there were maybe 30 white guys.

Speaker 4 So, and all those, all of them, with the exception of myself, were there for

Speaker 4 basically methamphetamine. Wow.
So I'm one of the few white guys out of 2,000 inmates. Well, I think they had 1,800.

Speaker 4 Out of 1,800 inmates, I'm one of 30 guys, and I'm the only one there that's not there for drugs. So I'm,

Speaker 4 you know, I stayed this, yeah, I stay to myself. I wasn't like, hey, you got to join a gang.

Speaker 4 Hey, it wasn't that kind of prison, although they had gangs and they would argue between themselves and they would have issues with each other. Like, I'm not involved in that.

Speaker 4 Like, I work a job in the library. I'm a GED tutor.
And at night, I teach, I would teach real estate classes. Oh, wow.
Yeah. I taught what's called the the ACE courses.

Speaker 4 They were continuing education courses. And I taught real estate courses at night.
And it was super popular. I bet it was.

Speaker 4 Yeah. So I'm teaching these courses.
And then what was funny about that is that everybody,

Speaker 4 all these inmates want to get out and think they're going to flip houses. They want to know about real estate.
And hey, there's a real estate course. And I'm teaching the course.

Speaker 4 And then I'm able to tell them about different things that I've done in real estate. You know, buy a house for this much.
Here's how you can get the money. I explain what a hard money lender is.

Speaker 4 I explain loan to values, how to borrow money, how to set yourself up to borrow mortgages. How to, I do all these things.
And so they love it.

Speaker 4 And so now I'm walking around the compound after probably teaching that class for six months. You got guys that are massive, guys that have been locked up 20 years.

Speaker 4 And they're walking by and they're like, hey, Cox. And I'm looking up.
I'm like, hey, what's going on? And they're like, hey, good class last night. Good class.

Speaker 4 I'm like, my God, like this guy's got a prison GED. He looks like a tank, tattoos all over his body.
And these guys who typically wouldn't talk to me, right? Not a gang member. I'm, I'm.

Speaker 4 some soft cracker. No reason to talk to me.
But you got, you got black guys going, yo, Cox, what's up? That was a good class.

Speaker 4 Hey, Cock, what kind of book do you think I should order to so I read about real estate? And

Speaker 4 you see what I'm saying? Like, you know what reminds me of, did you ever see Shawshank Redemption? Yeah, Clauser. Yeah.

Speaker 4 So Andy Dufran, where he starts doing all the guards' taxes, suddenly every, he's, he becomes important in prison. I become important in prison.

Speaker 4 I'm teaching, I'm either teaching you GED or I'm teaching real estate classes, and I've got a waiting list. So I got a year and a half waiting list for guys to get into these classes.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's impressive. Yeah.
Wow. So,

Speaker 4 yeah, so that was three years. And then I went to the low.
And in the low, there's, there's more white-collar criminals. It's probably, the mix is probably

Speaker 4 60% black,

Speaker 4 30%

Speaker 4 Mexican.

Speaker 4 And then maybe 10%

Speaker 4 white. Okay.
No Asians? Very few. I mean, there might be maybe

Speaker 4 a large Asian population, a large Asian group at any given time. And there was 2,000 people in the low might be

Speaker 4 three or four at a time. Wow.
Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

Speaker 4 We stay out of trouble. Well, here's what I think happens is the Asians that are in Asian gangs,

Speaker 4 they don't go to, they don't go to... typically end up in lows or mediums.
They typically end up in pens and they stay there because Asians commit crimes that are extremely serious

Speaker 4 and they and violent and they're not afraid to be violent. And when they go into prison, they're concerned about gang activities.

Speaker 4 They're being respectful and getting respect. And so they commit violent crimes in prison.
So they don't typically, and the other thing about Asians is they'll fight, they'll fight their cases.

Speaker 4 So you're fighting your case and then you lose, you're getting a lot of time.

Speaker 4 You know, it's very much like the old mob where you fight the entire time. Yeah.
And that's, you know, they're, they're serious. Yeah.

Speaker 4 There's not a lot of them. And the ones that are, like, they're serious.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 Everyone I've met, I haven't met any Asians that were, weren't like, well, I'm in the low, a couple of guys, but they, you know, they were there for just stupidity.

Speaker 4 Um, most of the guys are, are, are super serious. Yeah, there's a big Asian gang, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah. Yeah.
There's a few. Like Johnny Chang was in it.
I forgot the name of it. There's, and there's the, uh, like their triads.

Speaker 4 Like, and they do, like, like, they do, they do stuff like, like, I actually was working on a book. I don't know if I'll ever get back to it, where the Asian gangs were

Speaker 4 robbing factories in the United States that were making computer chips and shipping them to China. Wow.
So they're going in hardcore. They're going in and they're, they're.
zip-tying everybody.

Speaker 4 Holy crap. And then they're loading up 10,000 or 100,000 chips into a van, driving off.
And then they basically meet some guy in a parking lot who gives them $3 million for $12 million in chips.

Speaker 4 And that guy then puts them on a boat and they ship them back to China. Like these are not the mob crimes.
These are serious crimes.

Speaker 4 They're bringing in, they're bringing in, they're trafficking in, you know, people. Like we're shipping containers full of people.
This is a serious, that's a serious issue. Like

Speaker 4 you're going to end up in a low. You're going to go to a pen.
Like that's a serious issue, human trafficking, not one guy. 30 guys in a container.
God knows if something goes wrong there.

Speaker 4 You know, there's all kinds of these types of things that they do that are so outside the scope that anytime you get caught for it,

Speaker 4 the government doesn't have, and they're organized.

Speaker 4 The government doesn't like organization. They don't mind a couple of idiot guys selling crack on the corner, but they're very upset when you organize.

Speaker 4 18 guys to rob computer chip manufacturers or guys that are bringing in, you know, tons of heroin or sorry, H, you know, bringing in tons of H or kidnapping people for ransom.

Speaker 4 And they'll kidnap people in their own community and get ransom and it never leaves the community.

Speaker 4 Like they don't even like they have their own subculture.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I mean, that's why the RICO got as big as it did, right? Yeah. They don't want the organized crime around.
Yeah, this definitely, I'll bet you, I wonder

Speaker 4 if there's an Asian gang involved or Asians involved. I wonder what the, what the statistic is on how many of those get charged with RICO.
It's got to to be huge.

Speaker 4 Because you hear about it with the Italian mob, but I haven't heard about the RICO with other groups. The Italian mob's basically, you know, it's a boutique gang now.
It's, it's kind of dead.

Speaker 4 You know, it's flashy and it looks good, but they're not what they were. They're not, you know, they're not shaking down.

Speaker 4 They're not shaking down.

Speaker 4 What do you call it? Unions and massive corporations. And did you ever hear Samuel the Bull talk about trying to get next to Trump? I saw that.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 Like, yeah, he can't even get in the building yeah like i like so these guys that are thinking like well we're going to start throwing a rock you can you can shake down a pop store just by throwing every night for a month you throw a rock through their window and eventually they go they've replaced so many windows they go man it's cheaper for us just to pay this guy 800 a month than replace three thousand dollars worth of windows i mean so so you can do that Starbucks doesn't give a fuck.

Speaker 4 I'll just keep replacing the window. We'll put up some cameras and we'll put a cop in the front.
We're going to get rid of you. Like they're the massive corporation.
It doesn't work anymore. Yeah.

Speaker 4 So, and that's kind of like the,

Speaker 4 you know, and of course the government focused on Rico. I mean, they felt, sorry, they focused on the mob and they basically gutted it.

Speaker 4 They created a system where it was benefit for the first time ever, it was non-beneficial for you to go to trial because the severity of the, of the sentence is so overwhelming. And

Speaker 4 they also made it extremely lucrative, let's say, for you to cooperate.

Speaker 4 So you want to, you've killed eight people, you're going to get a life sentence. Guess what?

Speaker 4 We can send you to jail for three years at a camp, change your name, as long as you cooperate against these eight people. Right.
You know,

Speaker 4 where do I sign up?

Speaker 4 Knock these eight guys. Oh, they're all murderers too.
And the truth is, none of them are looking out for me.

Speaker 4 And they, I knock off eight people and might throw on another five or six on top of it just for good measure.

Speaker 4 And I'll do my little three years and get out and you put me in Arizona somewhere with a new name. And, you know, so they prior to that, it wasn't, it was,

Speaker 4 you know, prior to that in the, what, the 40s, 50s, 60s shoot and the 70s, you know, the mobs paying off so many people that as soon as somebody started to cooperate, they knew it immediately and they just killed them, took them out.

Speaker 4 Right. But they, you know, then the FBI got serious about it in the 80s and then they just gutted the entire organization and it's over.
And now there's cameras everywhere.

Speaker 4 I feel like it'd be really hard to do what you did right now.

Speaker 4 Um, because you were going into banks often, right? It depends on which scam. Yeah, open check scam and yeah, the mortgage stuff because you got to get loans, right?

Speaker 4 So, the mortgage scam is probably easier now, really, and safer now than when I was doing it. Wow, because you have to look at it like this, just and just like what you were just saying.

Speaker 4 I mean, you're right if you did it the way I did it. The difference is when I was doing it, I would

Speaker 4 i had to go downtown to public records there's cameras everywhere yeah

Speaker 4 back then there wasn't but there are now um there's probably cameras then too but so you go downtown i got to fill out the paperwork i have to do all the research so i'm definitely getting caught on camera then i leave then

Speaker 4 at some point i have to go to a bank you typically would go you'd either make a phone call or go into the bank fill out paperwork okay i'm on camera again i'm saying now and then i had to go to a closing i have to go into a lawyer's office or a title company.

Speaker 4 I have to sign paperwork. There's cameras getting me in and out.
Right. So, and I leave.
Then I have to remove the money from the bank or open up bank accounts.

Speaker 4 So I had to go in the bank to get open up the bank accounts. Okay.
So I have to do all of these things. And all the while

Speaker 4 they're getting my photograph, right? So if I'm signing documents, they want to copy my driver's license. They want to copy my, okay.

Speaker 4 The difference is now I can sit in Starbucks or a coffee shop or sit outside Starbucks where there's no, you know, there's no, uh, there's no cameras.

Speaker 4 Go on my computer or a dummy computer, search public records, download all the information I need, create the documents on my computer,

Speaker 4 upload those documents to public records, pay the fee with a prepaid debit card in some homeless person's name or something.

Speaker 4 Nobody's ever seen me. I can turn around and I can.
go online and apply for those loans. I'm going to get the loans.
Of course, right? I'm going to have W-2s, pay stubs.

Speaker 4 I'm going to have proof of residency, perfect credit. So, once again, I'm going to get those loans.
They're in somebody else's name, some dummy, some synthetic identity I've created.

Speaker 4 Then, once again, nobody's seen me. Then I'm going to open up a bank account online.
Nobody's seen me. They're going to ask me to upload my driver's license.

Speaker 4 I can make a fake driver's license with the guy's picture on it, whatever, upload it, boom.

Speaker 4 Okay. Then I have to get, I get a proof of the loans and I get scheduled the closings.

Speaker 4 And all but I think 12 or 13 states, you can do what's called remote closings. So I can do a remote closing

Speaker 4 on screen, and the notary

Speaker 4 needs me to hold up my driver's license or fax them a copy and then show my, you know, they need to see me. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, the thing is, is that right now there's AI that you can put, you can use a filter where it changes who you are, which you look like, right? Oh my God.

Speaker 4 This actually happened the other day with an old woman. Really? And the title agent just happened to catch her because she she noticed one the way she was moving and two

Speaker 4 her responses were slow because she was completely computer generated

Speaker 4 and they asked her a question and the person couldn't answer the question correctly because the person wasn't they didn't english wasn't their first language

Speaker 4 so they're typing the answer to have this old synthetic old woman this this AI generated woman answer the question, but they don't even understand the question. So the old woman's not answering.

Speaker 4 So they fucked up. Had it been me and I don't look like me and I've got an AI generated,

Speaker 4 whatever, clone of this person that I'm, somebody that's slightly altered,

Speaker 4 then what are you going to do? I'm going to do the closing. I'm going to sign, they're going to send me the documents.
I'm going to sign all the documents.

Speaker 4 And what are they going to do with the money? You're going to say, hey, wire the money to my bank accounts, which I also opened online.

Speaker 4 And so you can do that. And as long as you kind of slowly remove that money,

Speaker 4 you're going to be okay. Like you wouldn't see me in any way.
I mean, that's one version of that scam.

Speaker 4 There's lots of other versions of real estate scams where maybe you have to meet somebody, but that person is like a shill, and they're not going to get a copy of, they might be able to ID you, but they're not going to ask for a copy of your driver's license.

Speaker 4 I mean, it's not hard for,

Speaker 4 let's say, you meet some guy at a real estate convention or a conference and I say, hey, listen, man, by the way, I got a buddy who works at the bank and

Speaker 4 he can give me foreclosures and we can put them on, you know, we can list them for sale and sell them. The problem is that I owe money to the IRS

Speaker 4 and I'm really in a bad spot. Would you mind doing it? We'll put the house in your name, put it up for sale.
You go to the closings, you do everything.

Speaker 4 And then when you get the money, you know, you, you cut me a check, cut my buddy a check for 30%. I get a 30%, you get 30%.

Speaker 4 Do you know how people would, how many people would jump on that? Where they say, they say, hey, you got a $400,000 piece of property. We're going to sell it for $300,000.
You get $100,000.

Speaker 4 They're going to be like, hell yeah. This is some guy who met me.
There's no cameras. He met me at a real estate conference.
Nobody's ever seen me. He meets me.
We talk in the parking lot.

Speaker 4 I give him the address. He drives by.
I don't even go with him. He goes in the house.
Well, the truth is, that's some house that isn't some house I leased. It's an Airbnb I leased for a week.

Speaker 4 And I've already gone downtown and I've satisfied the loan on it. And I then prepare a fake

Speaker 4 quit claim deed and I quit claim deed it into his name.

Speaker 4 He puts it on the

Speaker 4 MLS or whatever, for sale by owner, Craigslist, whatever he wants to put it on. He puts it on one of these things for $300,000.
It's a $400,000 house.

Speaker 4 Within a week, people are going to be like, oh my God, I'll take it. I'll take it.
I'll take it. You say, okay, you got to close.
Like, I'm not waiting. I'm not waiting 30 days.

Speaker 4 You got to close within a week. And this person can go in the house.
They can have an appraiser. They can can go in the house, but do you have to have cash?

Speaker 4 Well, some investor is going to come in and say, man, I can buy it for $300,000, put it back on the market, sell it for $400,000. It'll take me a month and a half, but I'll make $100,000.

Speaker 4 They'll come in.

Speaker 4 They'll research the title. They'll see that

Speaker 4 there's no mortgage on it and that the deed was recently transferred from the owner. It was quick claim deeded to the guy that's got it for sale.
Looks like a foreclosure.

Speaker 4 So he's going to go.

Speaker 4 Okay, looks like this person was maybe behind on their mortgage. Something happened, but it was their mortgage was satisfied and then they transferred it.
So there was was a transfer.

Speaker 4 So you do own it. You go to the closing.
You have the money sent to your bank account. I tell you to wire money to a gold or a precious metal dealer or buy me diamonds for $200,000 with diamonds.

Speaker 4 I have that delivered somewhere. I have the gold shipped to me.
And then I end up with precious metal and I've got all my money.

Speaker 4 And then in six months, once people realize what's happened, the FBI shows up at your place and you know what you tell them? You say, I met some guy. We talked in the parking lot.

Speaker 4 He knew a guy at the benefic. He told me this is what I sent him the money.
And they're like, no, we can see you transfer the money. But what you did was it was a scam.
You were a part of that scam.

Speaker 4 He can show you the text messages, but yeah, I know, but that phone that you text messaged this guy over and over again, that's a drop phone. We can't find that phone.

Speaker 4 Well, we got no picture of this guy. Yeah, but his name was this.
It's not his name, bro. We've looked it up.
You know, maybe you could even tell him, hey, I want $100,000 in cash.

Speaker 4 Like, you're going to have to arrange. Told you, I got IRS problems.
Like we had this agreement. You got to give me that money in cash.

Speaker 4 Maybe it takes him a month.

Speaker 4 What does it matter if it takes him six weeks or eight weeks to give you the money in cash?

Speaker 4 He's going to do it because he's so thrilled because now you're telling him, I got four more houses we could do this with. He's like, oh my God, I'm going to emboy half a million dollars.

Speaker 4 This is amazing. What an amazing opportunity.
Not realizing he's burying himself. Yeah.
So, you know, that's a scam where I never get seen. I got one guy who's seen me and everything's in his name.

Speaker 4 I mean, it's a horrible scam. Obviously, I feel bad for that guy.
I'll put money on his books.

Speaker 4 But he's got some serious questions

Speaker 4 to answer. But so there, I mean, look, there's so many versions of real estate scams

Speaker 4 that you could get away with. And keep in mind, too, when I was doing it, if I had a couple of W-2s and pay subs to provide my income, I had to make those.

Speaker 4 There are websites you can go to right now and buy W-2s and pay subs. Really? Yeah, it's

Speaker 4 paystub.org or something is what there's like 10 of them. So you buy it and then how do you change the name to your name?

Speaker 4 No, no, you just you go in and you say, hey, my name's Matthew Cox and I need a W-2

Speaker 4 for 2022 that says I made

Speaker 4 230,000. I live in Florida.

Speaker 4 Let's say I have two kids. They go, okay, and they calculate everything.
They print out a W-2. Here's my social security number, everything.
They print it out. Okay.
What? Yeah.

Speaker 4 Then you say, oh, by the way, in 2000, I also need one for 2000, let's say 2024. They print that one out.
You go, okay, by the way, I make this much money

Speaker 4 a year, this much money a month, every two weeks. I paid, you know,

Speaker 4 bimonthly. I make this much money every two weeks.
You tell them how much you make. They calculate all of the, all the payments, everything.
And then they'll print. And you say, I need two pay stubs.

Speaker 4 They'll give you a year to date. So you say, so if, let's say, you tell them, how long have you been working for the company? Oh, since January 1st.
Well, okay.

Speaker 4 So it's now you know february 28th right so i need you need four pay stubs they calculate the year to date the entire time

Speaker 4 how much has been so it's exactly like your employer did it wow you could put any employer you want you can put the phone number even so then they can so imagine that i can i can verify that i've had a job for over two years i still have the job and i make over two hundred thousand dollars a year that basically qualifies me to purchase assuming it assuming a lot of other things like you have good credit

Speaker 4 That basically would allow me to purchase probably a $600,000 house. Wow.
Maybe more. Just out of thin air.
Right. Don't the banks verify the W-T stuff, though? They can't.
It depends on the bank.

Speaker 4 They can. Well, when they verify it, typically they just call your employer.
So obviously you have to have a phone number that they can call. And he says, yeah, hi, who?

Speaker 4 Oh, yeah. No, no.
Yeah, Matt. Not here right now.
Did you want to talk to him? Oh, you just want to verify he's employed. Oh, no, no.
He's been here for, oh, gosh, at least two, three.

Speaker 4 He's been here longer than I have. I've been here for three years.
Okay.

Speaker 4 Anything else? Oh, okay. Thank you.
And they hang out the phone. Very casual.

Speaker 4 What do they care? They could do a, there's a form they can fill out, which is an 8821 form, which verifies your employment with the government, but they don't always do that.

Speaker 4 So if you just have to make sure you're wherever you go, they don't do that.

Speaker 4 And keep in mind, if I'm trying to borrow money in somebody else's name, I don't care if they do that because that form's probably not going to catch up with me for a few months. Right.

Speaker 4 So I close the loan. I get the money.
And maybe three months later, they realize this guy doesn't even work here. This isn't even a corporation.

Speaker 4 That's if they figure out it's not a corporation. If you're smart, you do it with like a shell company.
Yeah. You buy a shell company that's been around for 10 years.
That's impressive, man.

Speaker 4 How far out were you thinking during this? Were you thinking month by month, like, oh, I'm going to move here next month? Or were you kind of just living in the moment?

Speaker 4 Well, I mean, initially I owned a mortgage company. So I was thinking I was just doing like.
Little frauds, right? Like I'd change a W-2, a pay-the-just so that my clients could get a loan. Yeah.

Speaker 4 and we probably did that for i think the fbi estimated like 40 million dollars

Speaker 4 over the course of several years like we did that much fraud which

Speaker 4 isn't that much fraud like to me that wasn't that because these loans were were going to clients that were getting the mortgages and they were paying they were

Speaker 4 getting a mortgage buying a house with the mortgage and they were making the payments that's fraud if i get you a 300 000 loan using fake w-2s and pay subs that's a three hundred thousand dollar fraud now you people think oh, you made $300,000.

Speaker 4 No, I didn't. I made a $6,000 broker fee.
Right. But it is, it's still fraud.
So the F, so the FBI said that was about $40 million.

Speaker 4 But then eventually I get in trouble and I lose my license and I sell the mortgage company. And then

Speaker 4 I started

Speaker 4 a synthetic identity scam where

Speaker 4 I figured out how to get Social Security to issue me

Speaker 4 social security numbers that were going to children. So I'd make a fake W-2 and a fake, I'm sorry, I would make a fake birth certificate and I'd make a fake shot record.

Speaker 4 And I'd go into the social security office and I'd say, hey, I had a son that was born. He's seven months old or 10 months old and he never had a social security number issued.

Speaker 4 And they'd go, okay, what's your name? Because I see your ID. Okay.
And they'd pull me up and they go, because your social security number is paired to your parents.

Speaker 4 So they pull up me and they go, huh. And they

Speaker 4 pull up his birth certificate and they go, huh, yeah, you're right. He's, he's never had a social security issue.
That's weird. And they go, okay, hold on.

Speaker 4 And they go to like, you know, screen number five and they pull it up and they type some stuff and they'd ask somebody to come over and sign something or type something in.

Speaker 4 And they go, okay, you'll have it in 10 days. 10 days later, I get a social security card.
with whatever name I wanted because you can name your child anything you want.

Speaker 4 You don't even have to use your last name. So it can be whatever.

Speaker 4 So I would create these synthetic identities. Once I got the social security card, I'd go online and I would fill out, I'd try and apply for credit.
Obviously, I don't say he's a seven-month-old kid.

Speaker 4 No. I say he's a 32-year-old man.
So they don't verify the age, the credit companies? No. Well, first of all, they don't know who this is.
They've never heard of this person.

Speaker 4 The first time they hear about this person is when I when I apply

Speaker 4 for a credit card. So you think the credit bureaus know who you are, but they only know who you are once you apply.
You just gave them, you just started a file on yourself when you apply. Got it.

Speaker 4 So initially, you know what comes back? No file found.

Speaker 4 This person doesn't have a credit profile, but you just created one by asking. So now they've got an inquiry and you get turned down, of course, the first time.
But then I also go to SunTrust Bank.

Speaker 4 I apply. So I get turned out by one or two, but the information's all the same.
So now there's a few inquiries. And what happens is Bank of America turns you down.

Speaker 4 They come back and they go, yeah, we can't give give you a credit card, but what we can give you is a secured credit card. Give us 500 bucks and we'll give you a secure credit card.

Speaker 4 Nobody knows it's secured. So I send them 500 bucks.
They send me a credit card in a seven-month-old child thing, you know, that they think it's a 32-year-old man.

Speaker 4 So I get that credit card and then I get two or three more and I make the payments. I keep the balances below 50%, normally below 30%, make the payments.
And in six months from now,

Speaker 4 the credit bureaus start reporting credit scores. The credit scores would be like 690, 705.

Speaker 4 Now they would be higher

Speaker 4 because back then they were more strict. They changed some of those laws.
And so now these guys would probably come out higher, even higher, but they were all roughly 700. So you get about these.

Speaker 4 And so now

Speaker 4 I've got this synthetic person who has 700 credit scores and has three trade lines.

Speaker 4 All I have to do is make W-2s and pay subs, have an employer that will verify their employment and make 24 months worth of canceled checks.

Speaker 4 And this person looks as solid, if not more solid on paper than a legit, than you do, than a legitimate person. You know, they don't have a lot of credit, but they got 700 credit scores.

Speaker 4 They've been on their job for five years. They've been paying their rent perfect for the last 24 months.
Do we want to lend this guy money? Of course he's perfect.

Speaker 4 He's great. And he's not bogged down by debt.
He doesn't have a car payment. He doesn't have, he doesn't have a lot of this.
And he makes great money.

Speaker 4 And he's got a lot of money to put down on the property.

Speaker 4 So they're like, absolutely. So they're lending him $100,000, $200,000 loans.
They're on $50,000.

Speaker 4 And so I would have these guys go into an area of Tampa called Ebor City.

Speaker 4 And it was a really run-down area, but the city kept was dumping. It's one of those places where they talk about gentrification.

Speaker 4 They're constantly trying to, I don't know if there's like this in Vegas. There's got to be some area where the city's constantly trying to dump money into.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I feel like every major city has that. Absolutely.
You're absolutely.

Speaker 4 Usually a few areas so ibor was one of them they just built they just put like 80 million dollars into this one area where they built like you know they built shopping malls and shopping areas and restaurants and uh uh all kinds of stuff right so it's like there's money being dumped in there but it's still it's still in the middle of a crack area right right it's still a horrible area so

Speaker 4 My guy,

Speaker 4 I go in there and I buy houses in these synthetic identities names.

Speaker 4 And every identity gets five houses or six houses. They buy these houses for $50,000, but I record the sale of the house at $200,000, let's say.

Speaker 4 And the way you do that is you just pay the extra dock stamps. If you buy a house for $100,000, you pay $700 in dock stamps.
I'm buying these for $50,000, so I'm paying $350,000.

Speaker 4 So I just paid an extra $1,000. $50

Speaker 4 in dock stamps and that

Speaker 4 $50,000 sale shows up for $200,000 in public records. So now, anybody that looks in public records to say, Hey, what'd you pay for this anyway? Hold on, let me check.
Oh, wow, you paid $205,000.

Speaker 4 And I own that house over there too. Hold on.
Oh, you paid $190 for that one. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Wow. So I did this with so many people in this area.
It drove the property values up.

Speaker 4 And it actually was on Forbes said that the Ybor City zip code, it was 33605

Speaker 4 in

Speaker 4 2003

Speaker 4 was the fastest zip, was one of the top 20 fastest zip codes in the nation. And that was from you? Yeah.
And that was, that's, I did a hundred and the FBI said I did 109 houses.

Speaker 4 I don't think I did that many, but I borrowed, so these guys would now buy the house. It's worth 200,000 minimum.
And then I, I was, we would get an appraisal on the house.

Speaker 4 We would do, we'd renovate it a little bit, clean it up, paint it, do a little bit. We get an appraisal on the house.

Speaker 4 And then, of course, the appraisal is using my other comparable sales to verify what this house is worth. So if I create all these comparable sales, I'm determining what the price of the market is.

Speaker 4 So they're saying you've got an appraiser comes out and says, yeah, the place is worth 200,000.

Speaker 4 So then you go to the bank and the bank says, yeah, we'll lend you, you know, well, you don't, you know, you have, you have decent credit.

Speaker 4 We'll lend you 80% of that. We'll lend you 160 or we'll lend you 90%, 180.
So I got a $200,000 house. They're going going to lend me $180,000.
Well, and so I get the $180,000.

Speaker 4 I make three or four payments and I stop paying. But I'm doing this on all five houses.
Yeah. So I'm adds up.
Right. So it adds up quick.
I'm borrowing like a million dollars.

Speaker 4 I'm making six or it's almost all, not all profit, because I did have to buy the house for 50. Yeah.
So I'm making, I'm getting, making $600,000 on these guys.

Speaker 4 And each one of these guys is worth $600,000 or $700,000 because there's other things I would do. By this point, I'm able to get real credit cards.

Speaker 4 Once you get the 700 credit scores, now I'm getting credit cards for 10,000 for $20,000. I'm also borrowing personal loans for $15,000.
So you can get three or four personal loans.

Speaker 4 I'm getting an extra $45,000 there. So each one of these guys was roughly worth close to $100,000 or close to a million dollars, let's say.

Speaker 4 Typically, the mortgages, you're making about six or, well, no, let's say. So you're making about $600,000 conservatively, $600,000 to $700,000 on the mortgages in profit.

Speaker 4 Maybe another $100,000, let's say. That's reasonable.
So that's $700,000 or $800,000.

Speaker 4 I usually don't talk about the credit cards because they're they're so minor. No, I mean the per and the personal loans are, you know, they weren't big.
They were 15 grand.

Speaker 4 That was what the Fed had set the, they could, they would lend anybody 15,000. They'd lend you double whatever you made in a month or up to $15,000.
Got it.

Speaker 4 If you had over a six, I think it was a 650 or a 620 credit score. And my guys have 700 some.

Speaker 4 So I would go out and I get some credit cards, then I'd go get three or four. Well, not three or four.
I I never got more than three. I'm going to say 40.

Speaker 4 I got the most I ever got was like three $15,000 loans. You know, you go to Bank of America, $15,000, SunTrust, $15,000.
You go to BBNT. $45,000.
$45,000. That's not, look, that's not nothing.

Speaker 4 That's, that's decent money. Yeah.

Speaker 4 So I would do that. And then, of course, I get a credit card for once for $10,000, once for $20,000, once for $12,000, once for $7.
And then they stop giving them to you.

Speaker 4 So then you switch to the department store cards and you go, okay, Birdines will give me $3,000. And then

Speaker 4 you go to, you know,

Speaker 4 whatever it is, the next one under,

Speaker 4 you know, SACS. SACS suddenly gives you two, gives you $1,000.
Like your scores are dropping dramatically. Then you turn around and you go to, you know, I would go to, okay, go to Home Depot.

Speaker 4 Home Depot would give me like $500 or something. Then you get to a point where now you try for something.
When they started just everybody's denying you, you're just like, okay, I've destroyed them.

Speaker 4 He's done. And then I stop paying everything.

Speaker 4 run all those credit cards up over the next month or two because they don't know you stop paying the mortgages And then suddenly this guy's got five mortgages that are going into foreclosure.

Speaker 4 And you stop paying all these, all these credit cards after a month or so. You maybe make one payment, you run them all up, and you just stop paying everything.
And then you just wait.

Speaker 4 And then after a month or two, the banks start mailing you letters saying you're delinquent, you're 30 days, 60 days delinquent on your property. We're going to foreclose.

Speaker 4 And at that point, what I would do is I would get,

Speaker 4 I would take an article out of the newspaper.

Speaker 4 This is funny because you don't even, how old are you? My dad used to, I'm 28. My dad used to read the newspaper, but yeah, you don't even, okay, so I was like, you barely even remember.

Speaker 4 They don't even have like newspapers, right?

Speaker 4 So I would take an article out of the newspaper and I would, I would retype the whole article.

Speaker 4 And it would be an article like there was a 20-car pile up on I-75 and there were whatever, so many, you know, there were injuries and one person was life flighted to Tampa General Hospital.

Speaker 4 And that's all it'd say. I retype the whole thing, but I'd put my guy's name as the person who was life flighted.
Then I would print that article out on newsprint.

Speaker 4 You know, you go to the art store and you can buy newsprint. So I'd have to trim it up just so that it fit through the computer or through the printer, right? Because it comes on these rolls.

Speaker 4 So I guess they probably have them in regular sheets now, but back then you could buy a roll, you had to roll it out and erase it. And you make five or six.
And I print it out on that.

Speaker 4 And then I cut that up. So it looked like you cut it out of the newspaper.
And I put it on on the,

Speaker 4 uh, on the

Speaker 4 printer and close up the thing and then make a copy of it. So it looks like it's a, it looks like you cut it out of the newspaper.
Wow.

Speaker 4 And then I'd write a letter and I'd highlight my guy's name, my synthetic identity's name. And I'd write a letter from his

Speaker 4 synthetic sister saying, look, my brother, as you can see by this article, my brother.

Speaker 4 was recently in a tragic accident. He's currently in a coma.
And the doctors say that even if he lives, he'll never work again. And that's why we haven't been able to pay the mortgage.
I'm so sorry.

Speaker 4 I understand you're foreclosing.

Speaker 4 And you're perfectly reasonable. I just want to let you know this is the reason.
And

Speaker 4 what the collection companies want is they want a reason

Speaker 4 because when that person gets that and reads it, the collection company goes and types it up. and scans the letter and puts it in their system.
Every other person that gets it, they're like, fuck.

Speaker 4 Do we call? Don't even call. Just keep foreclosing.
We've called. We've gone.
The guy's in a coma. No.
Never working again.

Speaker 4 Take it. Take the property.
They just go through the property. They, when they go in front of the judge, Your Honor, the guy's in a coma.
His sister wrote a letter.

Speaker 4 Everything. It's no problem.
They take back the property. They put it back on the market.
They try and sell it. They can't.
Three months later, they lower the price.

Speaker 4 Three months later, they lower the price. Three months later, they lower the price.
A year later, they resell that property for $80,000 or $100,000.

Speaker 4 And they lose $100,000 or $120,000 on the mortgage that they lent. Right.
And they chalk it up to, it happens, right? People get into car accidents. People get divorced.
People's houses burned out.

Speaker 4 Things happen. So I did that for about 18 months,

Speaker 4 maybe close to two years. I borrowed $11.5 million on that scam.
Wow. And I was already on.
probation. I mentioned I had gotten in trouble.
I was on probation.

Speaker 4 I was on probation, by the way, for a wire fraud.

Speaker 4 I had been, a friend of mine had gotten caught running a scam and she wore, she and her husband wore a wire on me.

Speaker 4 And they got me to talk about how I'd make, made fake W-2s and pay stubs for my wife at the time.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 so the FBI agent, I realize what's happened, what I've said, realizing like, oh my gosh, like I realize they're wired while we're in the conversation. Oh, you and you mid-conversation? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 4 In the middle of the conversation, it dawned on me. Wow.
You got good instincts. No, well, no, I wish I could say that.

Speaker 4 What happened was

Speaker 4 her husband. So I had just refinanced their house to get them like 75 grand so they could pay their attorney.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 And they,

Speaker 4 so while we're talking, I'm saying, look, don't tell the FBI, don't tell the FBI

Speaker 4 anything. Just tell them like, you never met my wife.
Tell them she called on the phone. Like I'm coming up with a scenario that will kill the investigation.

Speaker 4 And Gretchen, which is the girl's name, she goes, goes, Matt, we can't lie to the FBI. And I went, what are you talking about? You've been lying to the FBI.
And she's like, no, we haven't.

Speaker 4 I'm like, I'm talking about, I just refinanced your house using fake W-2s and pay stubs that you gave me. Like, you're, you're still committing fraud.
What are you talking about?

Speaker 4 Like, you can't lie to the FBI. So her husband stands up.
He goes, we've never lied to the FBI.

Speaker 4 We may not have told them everything, but we've never lied. And I'm looking at him like, the fuck, like, who are you talking to? Because I know that's not true.

Speaker 4 So you're not saying this statement for me.

Speaker 4 And then I realized, like, oh, wow.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 4 Like, you're wired. Damn.

Speaker 4 You drove across town to bring me to lunch to get me on a wire.

Speaker 4 Cause you want to see that person. They want them in person.
We could have had this conversation on the phone.

Speaker 4 And I'm like, oh, wow. Like, I go, I hope you're getting something for this.
And she's. It's okay not to be perfect with finances.
Experian is your big financial friend and here to help.

Speaker 4 Did you know you can get matched with credit cards on the app? Some cards are labeled no ding decline, which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit scores.

Speaker 4 Download the Experian app for free today. Applying for no ding decline cards won't hurt your credit scores if you aren't initially approved.

Speaker 4 Initial approval will result in a hard inquiry, which may impact your credit scores.

Speaker 4 Starts crying and she goes, I don't have to go to prison. She goes, I don't have to go to prison.
It's just bad.

Speaker 4 I got two kids i got blah blah i'm like i don't have a kid i went wow okay so i got up and i said tell the fbi agent just to call my office so he calls my office i tell him look i'll i'll come down and talk to you you know whatever tuesday of next week hang up the phone i get a lawyer lawyer says you're not talking to this guy and the lawyer says give me 75 000 and i'll we work out a deal give me 75 grand and i'll work with them and talk to them and see if i can keep you out of jail and he does he keeps me out of jail the truth is i was never really facing jail yeah do you see what i'm saying like all they had was you saying that Well, and they had those loans that my wife, that were, my wife had taken out like three or four loans, but two of them, we've already sold the properties and one was about to be sold.

Speaker 4 And I never borrowed more

Speaker 4 than what the property was worth.

Speaker 4 So there was never any real threat of the lender. There was no, what they call potential loss.
Right.

Speaker 4 So in the end, they were trying to say it was worth half a million dollars and we argued it down to nothing. There was no potential loss.

Speaker 4 So what they said was, fine, we're going to charge them with bank fraud. Like they're not going to let me go.

Speaker 4 And I said, I'll plead guilty to bank fraud, but you have to drop all the charges against my wife. Oh, they had charges against her.

Speaker 4 Yeah, well, I shouldn't say that because they hadn't charged either of us yes yet. I said, you can charge me, but you can't charge my wife because they wanted to charge her.
Cause think about it.

Speaker 4 She's the one that signed the documents. She's the one that borrowed the money.
She's the one that said all this was true.

Speaker 4 So they want her too. And I'm like, no, no, no, no.
She didn't know what was going on. She just signed whatever I put in front of her.
She doesn't have a clue. And so they said, okay, fine.

Speaker 4 And they realized, too, I'm orchestrating this. What they really wanted was they wanted me to go into my office and give them all of my mortgage brokers.

Speaker 4 And it's funny because I always say, like, my lawyer suggested that. Like, I was disgusted.
I was like, what? He's like, you haven't been indicted.

Speaker 4 He's like, I can keep you from being indicted. It's called a pre-trial intervention.
He goes, What we can do is, he said, they want your guys in your office.

Speaker 4 Because obviously gretchen and her husband had said this guy's running a mill right these guys are doing millions of dollars every single month in bad loans and so

Speaker 4 the so he was like what you what you should do is go down grab 10 or 15 of the most egregious loans that your brokers have done

Speaker 4 we'll bring them to the fbi go over what they've done they'll get arrested you'll never be indicted You can go about your, go on about your life. And I went, I'm not going to fucking do that.

Speaker 4 Like, I've seen the Godfather. I'm not going to fucking snitch.
I'm going to snitch on these guys. I'm not going to do that.
Just disgusted. If I knew then what I know now,

Speaker 4 I would have pulled up in a pickup truck with a dolly. I would have gone into the Friday meeting.

Speaker 4 I would have gone up and scooped up the file cabinets with all the guys there and said, the FBI is going to be coming out. Talking to you guys, if I was you, I'd get lawyers.

Speaker 4 And I would have taken the whole thing and I would have ratted them all out. Really? Because the moment that things went went bad for me, everybody lined up to talk.
Everybody cooperated.

Speaker 4 They said, oh, I didn't do anything, but I know he did this. Okay, I can cooperate.
I had this. They were all ready to roll.
Even your girlfriend, right, at the time? No, no, no.

Speaker 4 I didn't have a girlfriend. This was

Speaker 4 actually,

Speaker 4 listen. So

Speaker 4 actually, that is true, but not at this time. This time I was married and getting a divorce.
Remember? So at this point, I pay my lawyer $75,000. I say, I'll just take the charge.

Speaker 4 So I take the charge. My wife and I get a divorce and I lose the mortgage company.
Remember, I told you I had to sell it. Oh, so that caused the divorce that moment.

Speaker 4 You know what caused a divorce is I was not a good husband. I was, I cheated on my wife.
I didn't want to be married. You know, I dated my wife.
We dated for a few months. She got pregnant.

Speaker 4 I'm Catholic. I didn't like the alternative.
I don't have a problem. I don't have a problem with the alternative.
I don't want to be involved in that.

Speaker 4 And there are certain things that I'm okay with that, that alternative occurring, but I wasn't poor.

Speaker 4 I wasn't poor. I wasn't a child.
You know, it wasn't incest. Like the things that I can justify that didn't apply to me.
I made good money, you know? Yeah. Like I wasn't young.
I was, I was in my 20s.

Speaker 4 Like it didn't apply. So she said, well, then we got to get married.
I said, well, then we're going to get married.

Speaker 4 And you know that the marriage is doomed when you're telling people you're going to get married. And this is the way you put it.
Yeah, bro, I'm getting married next month.

Speaker 4 And, you know, if it doesn't work out, we'll get a divorce. Like, that's not how you say that.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 So, um, and so it was, it was doomed from the beginning because I'm having sex with you know, my female mortgage brokers, I'm, I'm, I'm having sex with account executives.

Speaker 4 Like, I'm never took this seriously. I was just, and it was just a complete shitbag to begin with, right?

Speaker 4 I'm not that, I'm mentally probably not that much better, except now I'm not running around cheating, I'm just still kind of a douchebag.

Speaker 4 But way, way worse than when you're committing fraud and you're making tons of money

Speaker 4 and you're young, straight,

Speaker 4 oh my god, like, so, so overwhelmingly obnoxious. And just a fucking asshole.
So it's just straight scumbags. So I didn't give a shit about anybody.

Speaker 4 So what happens is I start running that second scam I told you about because I can't. I'm now a felon.
I'm on three years' paper. So I start running the synthetic identity scam.

Speaker 4 I run the synthetic identity scam. I borrow $11.5 million.
And we would get caught.

Speaker 4 Like I'd get caught by a bank and they'd call up and I'd get on the phone and they'd say, hey, you know, we we know what you've done this is what's going on this this guy like i call up i remember one time i called up as as uh

Speaker 4 what was the name of the guy most of the characters that i made most of these synthetic identities were named after characters in the movie reserved war dogs oh wow so it was like mr red mr black mr white uh mr blue uh you know james like so i like james red d black

Speaker 4 so but i remember this guy was called uh i want to say this guy was named alan duncan because initially the first couple i did i did normal use normal names yeah

Speaker 4 so i want to say it was this was alan duncan um anyway i so i do alan duncan and

Speaker 4 uh they caught the fact that alan duncan wasn't a real person right like what they bought they gave us the money they gave us like 180 000 or something on this house that was worth probably 30 grand

Speaker 4 and

Speaker 4 But we were supposed to make the payments and everybody was assigned certain houses to maintain.

Speaker 4 So let's say I give you 40 grand, but I need you to make the payments for the next three months on this house. Go buy, make sure the yard gets smowed, whatever.

Speaker 4 And okay, no problem. Well, my buddy that I gave that assignment to

Speaker 4 never made the first payment. Just forgot.
You know, just a fucking idiot. And so I get a call one day that says, hey, what's going on?

Speaker 4 We just got a phone call from the account executive for this bank. And it was, it was South Star Bank out of Georgia.
Was it out of Georgia? Anyway, it's irrelevant. So they, I go, oh, oh my God.

Speaker 4 So I, I call, I go to my buddy. I'm like, well, did you make the payment? He's like, was it due?

Speaker 4 Fuck. So they're already investigating.

Speaker 4 So I pick up the phone and I call South Star Bank and I talk to, we get the account executive to say who told what's going on, who it was, who's involved, who knows.

Speaker 4 They said, look, man, the prank, the bank president knows. This is a small bank, right? It's not a big bank.
It's really a lender that calls himself a bank.

Speaker 4 So.

Speaker 4 And they're, they're like, I'm sure they're licensed as a bank, but they probably had one location.

Speaker 4 So I call up, I get them on the phone and they're basically, and I'm saying, Hey, this is Alan Duncan. I understand that there's an issue with the loan.
I, sorry, I, my mortgage payment came back.

Speaker 4 I put in the mail. I'll get you one immediately.
I'll get you all overnight. And they're like, oh, no, no, no, no, no.
It's just too late for that. They're like, we, we know you don't exist.

Speaker 4 Well, we know there is no Alan Duncan. You know, we're, and so they're doing a whole investigation.
They've already pulled taxes from the IRS. Yeah.
Like they've already contacted the bank.

Speaker 4 There's no, the bank account doesn't exist because I gave them bank states, bank statements, and everything. So I would make fake, I had fake blank, I had blank bank statements for like SunTrust.

Speaker 4 Yeah. So I could put it in the printer and I could print out any bank statement I wanted.

Speaker 4 The problem is that if you did call South Trust, you figure out fairly quickly this is not a bank account.

Speaker 4 So the way I got around that, by the way, is I just opened my own online banks. So I just would open a, I'd create a website for, let's say, the bankofyborg.com or southernexchangebank.com.

Speaker 4 And then I would make my own bank statements, print those out. And if you called, first of all, you could go to the website, which looked like a legit website, and then you could call.
If you called,

Speaker 4 it would go to voicemail. It would say, hi, this is Southern Exchange Bank of Clarksville.

Speaker 4 We're a small local bank here for you. We're currently experiencing high caller volume at the moment.
It was a very professional thing. But you could call back.

Speaker 4 If there wasn't somebody there to answer the phone, right? Like I've got a bank of phones behind me on my Credenza. If that one rings, you know it, and you'd be like, oh, shit.

Speaker 4 You pick it up, you go, click, you know, Southern Exchange Bank. I want to help you.
Who?

Speaker 4 I don't know. Hold on a second.
Let me let me check. Who is this? You know what I'm saying? Just, okay, no problem.
Yeah. Hold on.
I'll go. I'll just act like you're a bank.
Yeah, sure. Who?

Speaker 4 Yeah, no, I can't. I can verify the account.
Hold on.

Speaker 4 All right. And the name is, okay, what's the account number? Okay.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I can't tell you exactly what's in the, but I can, I can verify it. How much is, how much does the last statement say? It says he's got $32,000, $700.
Yep. Yeah.
No, that's, that's true. Yeah.

Speaker 4 How long has he been with you? Oh, uh,

Speaker 4 about 18 months, 18 months. Open the account on, you know, and you explain, they go, are you anything else? Like, I can't give you anything else without an authorization.
No, no, it's fine. Okay.

Speaker 4 Thank you. Click.

Speaker 4 Like they're like, oh, they're thrilled. They want to be able to, this is some underwriter who wants this to be true.
Right. Because he makes money, right? Right.

Speaker 4 He's, he's, he's, he's not going to dig in. He's like, can you verify this? You can.
Okay, great. I called the number.
Somebody answered. They verified it.
I went to the website. What about I've got

Speaker 4 original bank statements? What am I supposed to do? How else do I do this? And that's really as simple as it is.

Speaker 4 So the point is, is that I would get calls from banks every once in a while and say, hey, this is fucked up. This is what's going on.

Speaker 4 And I sat there and just said, look, I don't know what you want me to tell you. You know, I can, I can give you the money back.
Let me just cut you a check. And they go, oh, that's too late for that.

Speaker 4 And, and then I go, okay, well, look, it's too late to verify that because you think, what?

Speaker 4 You're going to foreclose on the property to get your money back. Yeah, of course, of course.
i say okay well here's what's really happening guys

Speaker 4 that property is not worth 200 000

Speaker 4 you know or whatever 180 or whatever let's say it's not worth 200 000 they go

Speaker 4 um

Speaker 4 what do you mean no we have an appraisal i go great get out the appraisal okay look at comp number one comp number one is owned by a guy named james red comp number two is owned by a guy named you know lee black comp number three is owned by a guy named you know whatever and i'd say i'm all of those people here's what i did and i'd explain, I bought the house for this much.

Speaker 4 I paid this much. I had this.
So really, I record the value and use up my own comparables to get this appraisal, which you guys signed off on.

Speaker 4 So your $180,000 loan is attached to a house that's worth 30 grand.

Speaker 4 It's a shithole. And honestly, by the time you foreclose on it, crackheads will have gone out in there.
They'll pull out all the copper wire.

Speaker 4 They'll bash out all the windows and they'll be smoke and crack and you'll have to start evicting people. It's a fucking nightmare waiting to happen.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 you can let me, you can do one of two things. You can get all your money back or you can call the FBI, but you can't do both.

Speaker 4 Call the FBI, even if the FBI catches me, which is highly unlikely, because all of these bank accounts were opened in false identities names. And the money's not there anymore.
It's gone. So

Speaker 4 you can call the FBI. They could try and track me down.
They never will. I've been doing this a long, long time.

Speaker 4 Keep in mind, I have to sound extremely confident for them to feel like they're in a bad position. Right.
I've been doing this a long, long time, fellas.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 you call the FBI if they track me down, which they won't, but let's assume they do. Let's face it.
All I'm going to get is some kind of a judgment because they're never going to recoup the funds.

Speaker 4 You'll never get the money. Or you can just let me go get a cashier's check and send it to you.
You don't call the FBI. We're all good.

Speaker 4 Because let's face it, nobody, nobody wants the FBI going through their files. And they're going to tear your files apart too.
Right. So they're thinking, do we want to be involved in an FBI?

Speaker 4 And not just that, do we want our name in the paper? Right. We just got, do we want the people that put their money into this establishment to start this company that's a lender?

Speaker 4 Do we want them knowing we're so stupid? We just lent $180,000 to a guy that doesn't exist.

Speaker 4 No. Do you still have the money? Absolutely.
Okay, when can you use a cashier's check? All right. You send them a cashier's check.
No, I've done that multiple times, by the way.

Speaker 4 No one's ever called the FBI. Wow.
You would think they'd get the money, it'd clear and they go this guy let's call yeah yeah

Speaker 4 nobody

Speaker 4 nobody wants the fbi going through their files period even if you're a standard up and up

Speaker 4 um mortgage company that's not doing anything wrong how intrusive do you think it is for the fbi to come start sifting through your files your employees don't want to see the fbi and that's really kind of how you know you live in a police state because if the fbi showed up right now and said hey we need to talk to you you'd be scared.

Speaker 4 You've done nothing wrong. I've done nothing wrong.
Why would I be scared?

Speaker 4 The first thing when people, two cops, you knock on the door, two cops are at the front door, you get the, people are like, the guard drops. Right.
And I've said nothing wrong.

Speaker 4 That's how you know, you know.

Speaker 4 And that's exactly what those people thought. Do we want the FBI digging through our stuff? And this is, that's a legitimate bank would do that.

Speaker 4 Who knows if these guys are, these guys are doing subprime loans. Yeah.
They're doing funky stuff. They know it's funky.
They They don't want the FBI showing up.

Speaker 4 God knows what's going on behind the scenes.

Speaker 4 They took the money. Listen, I've had so many things like that happen.
And I could like, that's why, remember we talked about Lex Friedman? Yeah.

Speaker 4 That's why Lex Friedman's podcast is six and a half hours. Because

Speaker 4 he wanted, he didn't, I was, you know, like, look, this is, I can keep going. Just keep going.
I was like, yeah, I get here. And I would, every time we'd stop, I'd go, well, let me trim it down.

Speaker 4 I'll trim it down. You go, no, no, no, I don't want you to trim.

Speaker 4 I want to trim it down. I want everything and I'll figure out what should stay.
Bro, we talked for over seven hours. He trimmed it down to six and a half hours.

Speaker 4 People are like, wow, you talked for six and a half hours. No.
And then you know the funniest thing about that is my wife was in the car. Oh, really? She's waiting in the car.
Wife's gone to lunch.

Speaker 4 She came back.

Speaker 4 She knows it takes about an hour or two for him to tell his story. Seven hours.
Oh, poor wife. Oh, my God.
You didn't even let her inside. Yeah, I thought she was going to be.
beer.

Speaker 4 But she wasn't. She was like, she eventually climbed to the back seat and fell asleep.
She's, I just figured you were just going. And the longer you could spin with Lex Friedman, the better.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's true, man. Yeah.
No, she's a, she's a gangster.

Speaker 4 What was the ultimate reason you got caught then after the?

Speaker 4 So it's, it's, so what happens is this.

Speaker 4 I did that one scam, right? The synthetic identity scam. I do that.
I borrow like 11 and a half million.

Speaker 4 And it's funny, too. I don't even know if it's 11 and a half million.
Like when they first came out, they said it was like 16 or 17 million. That number's floating around there somewhere.

Speaker 4 No, I got them down to like 11 and a half million. Cause they said it was 109 houses, and I don't think it was 109 houses either.

Speaker 4 That's it, you know, they blow up their, their, their numbers, yeah, which works great if you're trying to do your, you know, you're trying to do the whole, I'm a big-time scammer, but when you're facing time in front of a judge, right?

Speaker 4 Like, you're like, that's not true. Yeah.

Speaker 4 So, I mean, I'm sorry about that. Um,

Speaker 4 probably got all kinds of rattles.

Speaker 4 So, what happens is the

Speaker 4 I'm what happens is I have a buddy of mine, right? I have a buddy who

Speaker 4 needs money. He sees me driving an axe Audi.
He sees that I'm, I'm buying underwriters. Like we got, we got a dirty underwriter at one place that I bought him a Mercedes.

Speaker 4 You know, he sees me, I'm going on a week vacation here. I meet some girl at a, at a wedding and take her on a week vacation.

Speaker 4 You know, I'm, um, I'm dating women that are way too attractive to be dating me. Yeah.

Speaker 4 I'm, I'm living this amazing life. I'm vacationing all the time.
I'm, I'm driving, you know, amazing vehicles. I've got tons of real estate.
And he's like, you know, I'm struggling and we're buddies.

Speaker 4 How can you help me out? And I have a chick that I was dating too. She says, how can you help me out? So the short version is, I set them up in two different scams.

Speaker 4 And she ends up

Speaker 4 not getting caught, but getting questioned.

Speaker 4 So she, she had a fake ID.

Speaker 4 And the photograph, it was, it was, her name was Rosita Perez.

Speaker 4 And she was,

Speaker 4 she was

Speaker 4 assuming a real person's identity who had perfect credit, whatever. And we had, we had rented a house, transferred the deed out of the house into Rosita's name.

Speaker 4 We borrowed multiple mortgages on the house. So she's going into closing.
She goes one closing, we get a check for like $109,000 or something. Goes to another closing.
She's

Speaker 4 another check for $120,000 or something. But at the second closing,

Speaker 4 the title agent looks at the ID and goes,

Speaker 4 this isn't you. And she goes, excuse me? And by the way, it is her.
It's her photo. She goes, yeah, she goes, this doesn't look like you.
And she's like, no, it's me. She goes, no, something's wrong.

Speaker 4 She goes, hold on. She gets another closing agent to come in and look at it.
And the closing agent goes, that's her. She goes, no, I don't think so.
It doesn't look like her.

Speaker 4 And she's like, what are you talking about? She's like, yeah.

Speaker 4 Listen, I'm going to let you sign the documents, but I'm not going to give you a check.

Speaker 4 Let me make a few phone calls. Let me check this out.
And if everything's fine, you can come pick up the check or I'll mail it to you. And she's like, okay.
She signs everything. She comes back.

Speaker 4 She sits down, gets in the car. I'm like, what happened? She's like, you're not going to believe what just happened.
She tells me. I'm like, oh, we're done.
We're done. She starts making phone calls.

Speaker 4 We're done. She can't make too many phone calls.
She'll figure it out. She already thinks something wrong.
She's like, yeah, but it was me. I'm like, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 4 We're not set up to make phone calls when you've, I've rented a house. It's your house that I've transferred your mortgage into her name or your, your, sorry, your title.
Yeah. What if she calls you?

Speaker 4 You're going to say, no, I didn't transfer the title. I own that house.
I rented that house to that person. Like, that's just one way of many, any phone calls, it's going to break down.

Speaker 4 So I say, yeah, yeah, we're done. We're done.
And she says, he goes, well, we're done. We're scrapping that.
We're just driving away. No, nothing pointed to me or her.

Speaker 4 So we can drive away. They'll never catch us.
And I've read the entire investigation, by the way, that they did. They never put it together.
Wow. Like they, here's how they put it together.

Speaker 4 She eventually talks to my buddy that I opened up the other scam in Orlando. He'd already borrowed about $400,000 doing the same scam.

Speaker 4 And he was Mr. White.

Speaker 4 And he was a, I think it was David Silver and Mr. White.
So two different identities going borrowing multiple mortgages on the same properties. Got about 400,000.
He's still going to closing.

Speaker 4 She goes to him and says, look, let me sign the check over to you. You deposit it in your bank account and give us the money.
I tell him not to do it. He says, nah, it'll be fine.
This will be fine.

Speaker 4 So he does it. He gets arrested in the bank.
Like the bank officer, the manager calls him up and says, hey, I know you endorsed this check and you were depositing it. He's like, right.

Speaker 4 He goes, but it's over $100,000. And we need any

Speaker 4 checks over $100,000.

Speaker 4 A bank employee has to be there to witness the signature and they need to sign. We didn't see you sign this or we didn't

Speaker 4 see the person sign it or you endorse it. And so, could you come back by? And I hate to ask you to do that.
And he's like, yeah, no problem.

Speaker 4 well the cops are waiting for him well so he pulls in the cops arrest him so he gets arrested

Speaker 4 uh i get him i get him out on bond i pay for his attorney and it was it wasn't even a federal case it was a state case yeah so his his state attorney isn't like 50 grand or something it's 15 000 i pay 15 grand and then this is what's so funny about this guy um god bless him uh because i still see him to this day he uh i give him 15 grand and by the way he's immediately already working with them.

Speaker 4 Right away, he works. He starts, absolutely, I'll tell you whatever you want to know.
Just get me out of jail. He gets out of jail.
I buy, I get him an attorney.

Speaker 4 And he, how hard is it for him to prove, I can tell you what's really going on? It's much bigger than me. He goes, pull up Hillsborough County property appraiser's website.
And they go, okay.

Speaker 4 He goes, look up the name Lee Black. They look it up.
They're like, oh, yeah, this guy had five houses. Yeah.
All of them are in foreclosure or they've been foreclosed on.

Speaker 4 They're like, huh, that's weird. Yeah.
Look up the name Brandon Green. Okay.
Yeah. Oh, he's got six houses.
Okay. Oh, gee, all of them are in foreclosure.

Speaker 4 Look up the name James Redd.

Speaker 4 Very like, and they're like, green, red,

Speaker 4 black,

Speaker 4 silver.

Speaker 4 And he's like, yeah. He's like, this guy's borrowed $10, $20 million.
You know, it wasn't, but he's like, $10, $20 million. He goes, and that's the guy running this whole thing.

Speaker 4 And I can give him to you. And he's all, by the way, and he's already on federal probation.

Speaker 4 They look him up. Yeah, he's on federal probation.
Wire fraud, mortgage company, mortgage fraud, mortgage fraud. Absolutely.
We'll have you out of here. We're going to get you out of here right now.

Speaker 4 You're going to work with the task force.

Speaker 4 So he comes to me. I don't know he's working with the task force.

Speaker 4 And what happens is I pay for an attorney, 15 grand. Then he comes back a month later.
He's like, look, I'm not making any money. I'm broke.
I don't know what to do.

Speaker 4 I don't want to lose my house, my daughter. They're going to turn off the, they're going to turn off the lights.
I need money. Absolutely.
What do you need? Here's $5,000.

Speaker 4 A month later, he says, I want to start a tree trimming business.

Speaker 4 But, you know,

Speaker 4 it's expensive to buy the equipment. I go, how much? I don't know.
I need about 10 grand. Here's 10 grand.

Speaker 4 Comes back two weeks later. He said, you know what? I need to get a truck.
Let's go get your truck. Go get him a truck.
A little bit later, he comes back. He's like, you know what? I really need.

Speaker 4 I need one of those booms that goes up. How much are those? Well, I can find a used one for about five grand.
Five grand. Of course, here.
Here's five grand. Oh, I need a chipper, chipper.

Speaker 4 What are those? They're expensive, man. They're about 10 grand.
Of course, I got 10 grand. I'll give you 10 grand.

Speaker 4 Like, I pay him 20 or 30, 25 to 30,000 in the next month and a half while he's working with wow. That's a horse.
And you still forgave him. You said you still talked to him? He's got a daughter.

Speaker 4 He doesn't. Listen, in the end, you know who you owe?

Speaker 4 You owe your family. And

Speaker 4 he's just dealing with some fucking scumbag. That's all I am.
I'm just some scumbag who has.

Speaker 4 You can't be doing scumbag things with other scumbags scumbags and expect them to act honorably. True.
Right. Like if they were honorable persons,

Speaker 4 then you know what they would have done when they needed money? They wouldn't have turned to crime. They would have worked another job.
They would have cut back on their expenses.

Speaker 4 They would have moved into their old spare room at their parents' house. That's what they would do.
That's what a good citizen does. Not what scumbags do.

Speaker 4 And so he gets arrested and his daughter, his, his sister's got his daughter. He doesn't want to go to prison.
He doesn't have anybody to watch his daughter. What's he going to do?

Speaker 4 I cut Matt's throat. I got you, bro.
I get it. I get it.

Speaker 4 So, and having seen so many people do it by that point, by that point, I was ready to do it. Right.
Like, well, actually, not by that point.

Speaker 4 It was more like by the time I got finally got arrested, I'd seen the newspapers articles, so many articles had come out about me that I knew everybody had cooperated.

Speaker 4 And I'm thinking, like, there were people. Like, for instance, you said the girlfriend.
There was a girlfriend that I was dating in Tampa at this time. I gotten her into three properties, all fraud.

Speaker 4 This chick isn't even on the radar. And this is a chick that's going to closings and walking away with $80,000 and then renting out the property or $40,000.

Speaker 4 This is a chick, I'm paying off 20,000 of her debt. Like, I mean,

Speaker 4 I'm doing this chick a solid favor. Yeah.
I'm getting amazing properties, amazing deals. And she's walking away with the line share of the profits.
And they're not going in foreclosure.

Speaker 4 She's renting them out and able to pay the mortgages.

Speaker 4 And yet when the FBI came in and she heard I got in trouble, she grabs a friend of hers who's a lawyer and goes straight to the FBI and says, I know all kinds of stuff. I can help you.
Wow.

Speaker 4 Like, you're not on the radar. They're not even questioning you.

Speaker 4 But people did that. They came out because she knew she'd done something wrong and she thought I need to protect myself.
And she goes immediately. That's what everybody did.
It all came down to it.

Speaker 4 And the articles are coming out and the FBI is wandering around. They all started to turn over on me.

Speaker 4 And I realized, like, you're a fool if you're going to not talk about these people who are ready to cut your throat.

Speaker 4 So, what happens is

Speaker 4 my buddy, he's working with the task force. I'm still committing fraud.
I have no idea.

Speaker 4 And one day, a buddy of mine who's a sheriff's deputy, who I, I'd gotten about a million in change in fraudulent mortgages on. Wow, for sheriff's deputy.
Sheriff's deputy. Holy crap.

Speaker 4 He comes in uniform at like whatever, four o'clock to my office. And he walks in.
I'm like, hey, Steve, what's going on?

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 he's like,

Speaker 4 he's like, hey, can I talk to you outside? I'm like, yeah. So I walk outside.
I'm like, what's up? Like, I'm kind of like, yeah, what's like, listen, bro, everything's going great.

Speaker 4 Like, I'm dating hot chicks. I'm just going on vacation.
I just did this. I got great cars.
Like, what's up, bro? You know, I got my buddy Travis. He's taken care of.
I paid his bills.

Speaker 4 He's not talking. Like, we're going to take care of that.
We're going to make sure all that money gets paid back. And he's not going to get it anytime.
We're going to do, I'm doing it.

Speaker 4 Hey, what's going on? And he's like, I used to date this chick at the Tampa Police Department. I was like, okay.
And he goes, she was a member of a task force that was just handed over to the FBI.

Speaker 4 I'm like, all right. And he goes, task force was on you.
He said, she came to my house this morning at like six o'clock in the morning before I went to work.

Speaker 4 And he said, and she told me that my name had come up

Speaker 4 because I. was involved in some transactions that had been handed over at the title company when they served subpoenas.

Speaker 4 And I'm like, uh-huh.

Speaker 4 And he's like, they're going to come arrest you. And I'm like,

Speaker 4 what do you mean? He's like, no, probably, probably take a few days, but it's definitely going to be next week. And I was like, okay.
And he goes, well, what are you going to do?

Speaker 4 I said, oh, I'm leaving.

Speaker 4 I'm not, I'm going to prison. And he was like, that's how just like delusional I was.
These people, I don't have to abide by these rules. I'm going.
I'm leaving. They won't catch me.

Speaker 4 And by the way, and here what he said was, he was like, he started the conversation off with, with, do you know somebody in Orlando that got arrested? And I'm like, yeah.

Speaker 4 He's like, okay, so listen. So I know it's all from Travis.
Yeah. So I'm like, okay.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 anyway, I, and he's like, what do I do? I go, just tell him that you're not a mortgage broker. You met me.
I'm the one that set up all these loans. You thought they were perfectly legit.

Speaker 4 You're a sheriff's deputy. Like, I'm not a broker.
I'm not a banker. I said, I want to buy this property.
He said he could get me a loan where I purchased the property.

Speaker 4 He'd get me money out of the, out of the property to do renovations. That's what I did.

Speaker 4 Is that illegal? Well, yes, it is illegal. Oh, I didn't know that sounded perfectly legal to me.
I have perfect credit. I've been a sheriff's deputy for five years.
I make good money.

Speaker 4 You see what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. So, and that's actually what happened.
Like, he never got in trouble. Oh, wow.
No, he actually quit the, well, I think he was fired for dipping.

Speaker 4 He was caught dipping. You can't dip? Well, he was a, he was in the, he was in the

Speaker 4 jail.

Speaker 4 And you're not allowed to have tobacco products in the jail. And they caught him like three times in a row dipping.
And they finally fired him. That's why you got fired? Yeah.

Speaker 4 It had nothing to do with me. Oh, you're not allowed to have tobacco in jails, in any prisons, anywhere.

Speaker 4 So here's what happens is, so I take off. I get like 80 grand, which is nothing, right? Like I can't live on 80 grand.
I don't know how you live, but the way I was living. Not off 80, you know?

Speaker 4 No, I can't. That's not going to last very long.
So I,

Speaker 4 the short version is,

Speaker 4 is that I take off on the run. I actually brought a chick with me, which is a girl i've been dating

Speaker 4 i i was dating her about a month she'll tell you i was dating her we were dating two or three months that's just not true okay i'd fucked this chick maybe 12 times yeah at most couldn't have been more than a month six weeks and i

Speaker 4 tell her i'm taking off she begs to come with me she comes with me she's insane i have no idea she's insane she's been on her best you know how when when you first date them for the first time you met them there and they they keep crazy out so she's bipolar she's insane uh we take off on the run We go to Atlanta.

Speaker 4 We rent a house. And in the name of a guy named Michael,

Speaker 4 Michael Shanahan's name.

Speaker 4 I make a fake ID for Michael Shanahan. I go downtown.
I satisfy the loan on his property. So now I'm Michael Shanahan living in property, Michael Shanahan's property that I've owned for 10 years.

Speaker 4 So I call three hard money lenders. Hard money lenders are just a rich guy that lends money on the equity in your property.
So it's a $200,000 house. I'm asking for $150,000.

Speaker 4 So you're going to, of course. He doesn't pay.
I foreclose. I got a $200,000 piece of property.
I'll sell it, easily get my money back. It's a win-win.

Speaker 4 In fact, one of the victims called it a win-win. So he says, it's a win-win deal.
So

Speaker 4 I schedule three closings. I close all three of them at three different title companies at the same time.

Speaker 4 They, the title companies, of course, mail those documents in and they all get recorded. Nobody ever catches it.
And because they don't. They don't catch it.

Speaker 4 Public records isn't set up anywhere to catch fraud. They record whatever comes to them if it's filled out correctly.
And these were.

Speaker 4 So I get roughly about 400,000, roughly, because I don't think they all lent me.

Speaker 4 Well, I'm the 150, 150, one guy lent me like whatever, 120, one so, but after closing costs and everything, I get about 400,000. 400, roughly 400.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 I then go to

Speaker 4 Charlotte, North Carolina. We go there.
We set up base there. And I go to Columbus, South Carolina.
I think it's Columbus. And I go,

Speaker 4 I go there, and I get a real estate agent to show me a couple houses. And keep in mind, I'm doing this.

Speaker 4 Now what I've done is I've started surveying homeless people. So I'm getting their information.
I'm going to the DMV and getting a driver's license in their name. So I get their information.

Speaker 4 I then order a birth certificate. their social security card and I order their high school transcripts.
I fill out a lease agreement and then I go into, I register to vote as them.

Speaker 4 Then I go get all those documents because I can do all that online. And then I go into the local DMV and I give them the documents and say, I just moved here from Alabama.

Speaker 4 And so they give me a North Carolina driver's license or South Carolina ID or whatever it is. So I've got an ID in the name of a guy named Gary Sullivan.
And I go buy two houses as Gary Sullivan.

Speaker 4 I put down 10% on each house. I then go downtown and two weeks later, I go downtown after they record the sales and I satisfy the mortgages on them.

Speaker 4 I then go and apply for loans in this guy's name on the houses and I borrow five mortgages on each house. So I end up borrowing like $1.3 million.

Speaker 4 Pull money out. At this point, I'm in the bank and I actually get caught in the bank.

Speaker 4 So I'm pulling out 8,000 a day. This, I got like, let's say I got 10 accounts.
Yeah. Because it wasn't 10 accounts in one name.
It was. Three accounts in several names.

Speaker 4 And I opened a corporation that had some bank accounts in it. You know, you have to layer it.
Yeah, yeah, theater.

Speaker 4 Because you couldn't go right now and open up eight bank accounts today if you went to drove it they would reflag it right right probably the second one the second or third one you're going to start getting some questions and you can you can fudge those questions for the first time they ask and but the second time it's like listen you've clearly opened up two other bank accounts today yeah like they might open the third one i never got a fourth one open

Speaker 4 uh

Speaker 4 anyway So I'm dumping this money in the accounts. I'm pulling out 7,000 a day, 5,000, 8,000.
Varying, you know, I'm varying the limit.

Speaker 4 sometimes i'm pulling out money and putting money back in the account so that so that it doesn't just drain right like you want it to do this right like and then they start to realize and you've got the have had the accounts open for months yeah because there's a 9k rule right something over 10.

Speaker 4 oh well i used to be 10 i don't know what it is now it used to be 10. it might still be that i'm not sure maybe they loaded it so anyway i i do that I'm pulling out the money.
I think I get 700,000.

Speaker 4 And then one day I go into Wakoia Bank and I'm waiting for the money.

Speaker 4 And the woman called the police and the the cops come up behind me and they handcuffed me. And they bring me into an office and they tell me they're waiting for the detective.

Speaker 4 And I find out that on one of the, one of the people that I, the banks that I had applied for the loan, it, they, they didn't, the woman went on vacation. So she didn't order the documents in time.

Speaker 4 And by the time she ordered the documents, I was already closing these other loans. So by the time her abstractor goes downtown, they don't do this anymore.
Now they do it online. She went downtown.

Speaker 4 She saw three mortgages had showed up.

Speaker 4 And she went, oh, this is fraud. These are three mortgages.
Like something's wrong. And they're all for basically the same amount, 180, 180, 180.

Speaker 4 And she knows she's looking for a clear title on somebody who's trying to borrow 180. So she's like, oh, something's wrong.
These things and these things all close at different lenders within a day.

Speaker 4 She tells, she tells, that was BBNT Bank. BBNT Bank, she tells them, they contact Wachovia.
Wachovia heads the investigation. They put a red notice on me or whatever.
So I walk in.

Speaker 4 I get arrested at that bank. The cops are sitting there, but they're calling me Gary Sullivan.
Gary, I'm sorry, we were told to hold you. The detective comes in.

Speaker 4 He's, hey, Gary, my name is Officer So-and-so. I'm a detective so-and-so.
I'm like, right. He's like, here's what's going on.
He talks to me. I won't get into all the details.

Speaker 4 I know we're kind of time.

Speaker 4 And he basically,

Speaker 4 I can,

Speaker 4 he says, you got three mortgages on this property. And I'm like, right.

Speaker 4 And he goes,

Speaker 4 yeah, that's and he, and I went, why? And he said, well, you know, I go, is that illegal? And he went, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 4 He said, but Wachovia says it. They're upset about it.
I was like, okay, well, I haven't done anything wrong. I applied for a loan here at Wachovia.

Speaker 4 And so they get Wachovia's head of Wachovia's fraud department. And we're, uh, and he's yelling at this guy, arrest them.
And there's, he's saying, what's he done? Oh, he did this.

Speaker 4 He knew exactly what I did. Except he thought, I'm Gary Sullivan at that time.
So as they're arguing, I'm like, look, I went into Wachovia. I applied for a loan.

Speaker 4 I wanted to get about, I'm trying to get about 400,000 so that I can start buying houses and flipping them. I told the woman at Wachovia, I need 400,000.
She said, I can get you 180,

Speaker 4 but I have a friend that can get you a second mortgage. And we have another friend that could probably get you a home equity line.
I said, so that's what I did.

Speaker 4 Now, keep in mind, these are all first mortgages, but it doesn't say that on the documents. These liens.
Wow. So Wachovia knows.

Speaker 4 He knows they're all first mortgages because he's talked to everybody else. But I'm telling the detective and the detective, and he knows he has a first mortgage.
That's why I said I went to Wachovia.

Speaker 4 And this is what the Wachovia person, because he knows he's got a first mortgage.

Speaker 4 And he's like, no, they're all first mortgaged. I'm like, that's not true.

Speaker 4 That's not true. I said, one's this, one's that.
I don't know. I said, look, I think they have a problem at the bank.
Like, I don't know. I didn't have anything.

Speaker 4 I don't know what these people, what these people did. I said, I wouldn't know how to do this.
I work at a labor company and I give him my business card, labor on demand.

Speaker 4 And he can call the phone number. Somebody answers this, the whole thing.
And you can go to the website. Like he, he's like, okay, yeah.

Speaker 4 We argue back and forth, back and forth. And he eventually says, look, it's a scam.
He's running a scam. The guy's got a fake ID.
His fake ID, look, you can tell it's fake. It starts with 000.

Speaker 4 But this was a real ID issued from South Carolina Department of Motor Vehicles. And I went that I went to.
Their IDs, this guy's in California from Wacobia.

Speaker 4 Their IDs start with 000.

Speaker 4 So the detective immediately realizes like, you're saying all kinds of shit. That's wrong.
You're telling me this is a fake ID.

Speaker 4 he goes i've already run this guy through ncic this is an i a south carolina id this is our id start with zero zero zero and i look at him and i go what now i'm not gary sullivan and he and he goes he's like i know gary i know and i go bro they got a problem with the bank and then he says listen i think you've got a problem with the bank i don't think this guy's done anything wrong

Speaker 4 so

Speaker 4 he says i'm gonna take him downtown let him fill out a police report and let's see what the the um district attorney says so he lets me follow him downtown, go inside the police department, fill out a police report, and he lets me go.

Speaker 4 Oh my gosh. So I leave.
I go to a couple more banks and pull out some more money, jump in my car, and I leave. I get about $700,000 total out of that scam.

Speaker 4 I left $700,000 in the bank. Well, I left about $600,000 in the bank.
Oh, it's still there? No, the government got it. Because you have to think the FBI is there within days.
Oh, yeah.

Speaker 4 Because they were on your trail at that point. Yeah, well, they figured it out.
Like the detective and Walco, like they figure it out.

Speaker 4 The district attorney, they figure it out and they're like shit we got to call the fbi yeah these the locals don't understand

Speaker 4 so anyway so i go from there i break up with the girl i'm dating i leave her in houston we go to houston she rents an apartment downtown and you have to listen the places i'm staying at like are these are like you know you're staying on like the 20th floor 30th like you know you're driving we're driving vehicles that are outrageous and um so i leave her we get into a huge argument i leave her with like five hundred thousand dollars i take like a hundred thousand dollars and and I go to South Carolina.

Speaker 4 I'm sorry, go to Nashville. I go to Nashville and I assume the name

Speaker 4 Joseph Carter Marion. No, Joseph Marion Carter Jr.
I go by Carter.

Speaker 4 So I get a driver's license in his name, get a vehicle, get an apartment, start dating this chick, start buying houses, start recording the value of the sales higher.

Speaker 4 I pay the extra dock stamps because this scam works anywhere.

Speaker 4 So I blow up the price. I start borrowing money.
I borrow $3.5 million.

Speaker 4 I'm building new houses.

Speaker 4 For a year and a half, I was there.

Speaker 4 And then

Speaker 4 my girlfriend at the time finds out that Dateline NBC News is going to do a report on me. And by this point, I'm already number one on the Secret Service's most wanted list.
Wow.

Speaker 4 Under your real identity? Yeah, under Matt Cox. Okay.
The FBI is looking for me. The Secret Service is looking for me.
U.S. Marshals are looking for me.
I'm on all of their wanted lists, right?

Speaker 4 But I'm number one on the Secret Service's most most wanted list. Everybody always puts, you know,

Speaker 4 FBI is most wanted. Like, yeah, am I on the list? Yeah, but there's like a thousand people on the list.

Speaker 4 But everybody knows what the FBI is. They know what the Secret Service is.
So what happens is

Speaker 4 I borrow this money. Dateline's about to come out with a show on me.

Speaker 4 And what I do is I decide I'm going to go to Australia because Australia at the time was allowing. you to come there.
Like you didn't have to give fingerprints anymore.

Speaker 4 Like you could, you could, and keep in mind, I've got, I've had, just to let you know, I've had 27 driver's licenses in seven different issued by seven different states.

Speaker 4 I've had two dozen passports in different people's names issued by the State Department. Wow.

Speaker 4 So I've traveled, I've, on fake passports, I've been to, you know, I've been to Bermuda, I've been to Mexico, I've been to Jamaica, I've been to Italy, I've been to Greece, I've been to Croatia.

Speaker 4 Like I've been all around on these passports.

Speaker 4 So I'm going to Australia. I already had a clean passport.

Speaker 4 And what I was going to do was go there because at that time, if you showed up in Australia with like, you only needed to have a couple hundred thousand and a business plan and they would allow you to stay as a

Speaker 4 permanent resident alien. You could not take a job,

Speaker 4 but you could open a business. Keep in mind, I'm going to go there with a few million and a business plan.
So I'm going to not have a problem. The problem is dateline's coming out.

Speaker 4 We're planning on leaving. We'll pulling out cash.
And at one, we end up getting robbed. Oh, wow.
So we get robbed and

Speaker 4 randomly or was it targeted? I mean, I have a feeling it was one of the general, one of the contractors that was building houses, like one of his guys or something, right? People saw me.

Speaker 4 I was living in a shitty neighborhood because I had, I owned all the houses around me.

Speaker 4 So instead of, I moved out of, I was living in an area called in Nashville called Green Hills, which is really nice.

Speaker 4 And I moved right in the middle of the ghetto because I owned all these houses and we're doing these renovations.

Speaker 4 And I renovated a house really cool, had tons of security cameras, but we end up getting robbed. Well, I get a, so what happened was my girlfriend, we're cashing checks.

Speaker 4 We're asking laborers like, hey, bro, if I give you a check for five grand, I'll give you 500 bucks to go cash the check. And they're like, yeah, cool, no problem.

Speaker 4 They give me 4,500 bucks. So I'm doing this constantly.
So we get a little pile of money and we get robbed. Did somebody know the money was there? I don't know.
But we lose a bunch of money.

Speaker 4 And they didn't get all of it, but they got a bunch of it. So what happens is

Speaker 4 we are now staying at another place, but I'm at the office a couple of days later. I get a phone call

Speaker 4 from the police department. And they said, can you meet us at your house?

Speaker 4 So what had happened was my girlfriend had asked a friend of hers to cash like $30,000 worth of checks. Like she gave him a bunch of them for like five grand a piece, right?

Speaker 4 And during that conversation, she ended up saying, what's going on? And she said, look,

Speaker 4 this Carter's real name is Matthew Cox. he's wanted and we're going to australia we need to pull out a bunch of cash now

Speaker 4 obviously she didn't realize her friend was gonna you know she's she's a young girl stupid it was stupid for me to have not left when she found out who i was but point is is that you know i'm was in love you know you're stupid when you're in love so and and you know and i that's that's and that's certainly not the dumbest thing i've done so Tells her friend, her friend calls the Secret Service, negotiates a $10,000 reward.

Speaker 4 That's it. I know.
Embarrassing, right? Yeah, it's not. not humiliating.
So

Speaker 4 they watch the house for three days, but we're not staying there because there'd been a robbery and we didn't want to be in that neighborhood anymore.

Speaker 4 We're already put like 15 grand down another house up

Speaker 4 in Green Hills. And we're staying in a, in a hotel.

Speaker 4 So,

Speaker 4 but I'm at work and the police call and say, hey, look, we need to get a copy of those surveillance cameras of the robbery. I'm like, no problem.
So I go, I'll meet you there right now.

Speaker 4 So I'll be there in like five minutes. So I jump in my car, in my truck, I drive down there.
I pull up, I hop out of the car, I'm walking towards the, the house, and all of a sudden,

Speaker 4 the cars pull up, the, the SUVs, they jump out, Secret Service, get on the ground, get on the ground, the whole thing. And I'm just like,

Speaker 4 I get on the ground, they handcuff me, they get me up, they come up to me with the photo of me and they're.

Speaker 4 You got the surgery on your face. Yeah, I've got, I've had a nose job, a mini facelift.
I had my teeth done. I had two hair transplants.
I mean, I'm basically bald.

Speaker 4 So, you know, this is all hair from the back of my head. Oh, wow.
So,

Speaker 4 oh, look, how old are you then? 28. Oh, you just wait, bro.
It's all downhill. From here on out, it's all down.
This is the best you will ever look. Yeah.
Yeah. It's over.

Speaker 4 Well, no, it's probably about 35. Yeah.
You got a few more years. I'll drop it.
Just prepare. Um,

Speaker 4 so yeah, so they arrest me. They throw me in jail.
And, and, um,

Speaker 4 I end up getting

Speaker 4 how, do you want to? Where are we on time? You want to got like 10 minutes left. Oh, okay.
So the quick version is that,

Speaker 4 you know, like I cooperate. The FBI comes to see me, Secret Service comes to see me.
But by that point, what can I tell them? It's been three years. All of my buddies have already told on me.

Speaker 4 They already have an entire case.

Speaker 4 And so I end up pleading guilty because I am extremely guilty.

Speaker 4 And their whole thing was, look, we're going to, you plead guilty, get sentenced, and we're going to go arrest all, we're going to make cases against all these guys. Okay, great.

Speaker 4 So, you know, because they have, they, and I just have to sit there and say, yeah, I mean, they basically know what happens. They just don't know who's involved exactly.

Speaker 4 And most of these guys have been like, oh, this is what he did, but I wasn't involved. And it's like, no, no, no, if you look, and they already know that a lot of that's bullshit, right?

Speaker 4 Like, if you didn't weren't involved, then why did $100,000 go into Europe?

Speaker 4 Why did you make $50,000? Why was your broker fee 30 grand? You know what I'm saying? Like, if you were involved, they just need somebody to say, yeah, he was involved.

Speaker 4 And then everybody else is going to roll on each other, which they're already rolling on each other. Anyway, so

Speaker 4 not that I wouldn't have cut everybody's throat no matter what at that point. I don't know why I'm not trying to justify it.
Like I'm ready to fucking do anything. I have to.

Speaker 4 The point is, is that I plead guilty. I get 26 years.
Well, at the same time, I'm pleading guilty. This is late 2007.

Speaker 4 Now, you've heard of the 2008 financial crisis. What starts in, everybody's like, oh, yeah, in 2008, no, no, the banks were already failing in 2007.

Speaker 4 2008 is when they passed tarp right so i get sentenced when every article is about mortgages and fraud

Speaker 4 and i get sentenced i get 26 years

Speaker 4 but i'm thinking i'm gonna be okay

Speaker 4 because

Speaker 4 even though i showed up by the way when i showed up i'm my lawyer's telling me you're gonna get 12 to 14 years damn

Speaker 4 That's not what the judge had agreed on. So the judge is like, nah, 26 years and four months, to be honest.
26 years and four months.

Speaker 4 I just don't usually say the four months because it sounds like i'm lining so i get 26 years and four months i go to prison

Speaker 4 years go by they don't arrest anybody nobody gets in trouble and i'm going wait a minute you guys are supposed to build cases and then you were going to reduce my sentence yeah

Speaker 4 that never happens

Speaker 4 and i'm going um

Speaker 4 by the way the girl that i had left she'd been caught already she got five years and as soon as i got caught they reduced her sentence down to 30 months. Well, so they cut hers like in half.

Speaker 4 So she ends up going to a halfway house. She does two years.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 I got 26 years.

Speaker 4 And keep in mind, they asked me to do multiple things. They asked me to do like dateline, NBC.
They asked me to be interviewed by dateline, which I was. And they said, well,

Speaker 4 we will consider that substantial assistance is what they call cooperation. We'll consider that substantial assistance and we'll reduce your sentence.
Okay. So I do dateline.

Speaker 4 And then when I go to close, I go to sentencing, we go, hey, aren't you going to give us something for dateline? And they go, yeah, well, we thought about it

Speaker 4 and it's not enough. Wow.
Yeah, but you said you'd consider it substantial assistance. And they go, we did consider it.
And it's not enough. Damn.

Speaker 4 So then American Greed contacts me after I've been sentenced and said, we want to interview you. And we contact the U.S.
attorney. They say, absolutely do that.

Speaker 4 So we do it. They go, we'll consider it substantial assistance.
We do it. They air it.
We go, okay, you did it. And they go, it's just not enough.
Then I'm approached by a mortgage comp sorry mortgage

Speaker 4 um

Speaker 4 school

Speaker 4 to do an to write an ethics and fraud course right because i'm a mortgage broker a licensed mortgage broker who was committing fraud like i'm a perfect person and i've committed every fraud mortgage style fraud there is so i write this and and this guy goes up to atlanta my lawyer goes we get a solid agreement with the u.s attorney we do the course they start using it all over the place to teach the nation is being you used.

Speaker 4 This course is written by me about me.

Speaker 4 We go to them and say, we want you to reduce your sentence. You said you'd reduce the sentence.
And they go, it's just not enough.

Speaker 4 So I finally end up filing a 2255 with a guy in prison who's a disbarred attorney. It's too long of a story to explain what a lunatic this guy is, but he's amazing.

Speaker 4 He files a paperwork. By the way, I'd also contacted multiple attorneys on the street and asked them to please to help me get my my sentence reduced.
I'll pay you. I'll whatever.

Speaker 4 And I have no money, but I figure I can beg, borrow, and steal a little bit of money. Every one of them said there's no way to force the government to reduce your sentence.

Speaker 4 It's already, it's a done deal. It's nothing we can do.
It's on the books. This guy says, I disagree.
I think I can get him to do it. He files a 2255.

Speaker 4 He argues for six months and eventually they agree to reduce my sentence. They bring me back to court.
The judge gives me five years off my sentence. No.
What am I saying? Did I just say five years?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Seven years off my sentence. Nice.
Sorry. So they give me seven years off my sentence.
I go back to prison.

Speaker 4 I still got about eight or nine years to go. I've already been locked up like seven years at this point.
So I got seven or eight, eight years to go.

Speaker 4 Walking around the compound with this guy who's a con man. His name is Ron Wilson.
Ron Wilson ran a hundred million dollar Ponzi scheme where he stole $57 million

Speaker 4 of banks. I'm sorry, churches and pension funds from churches churches and pension funds and retirees.

Speaker 4 It's not a nice guy.

Speaker 4 He's in the middle of cooperating against his codefendants.

Speaker 4 And we're walking around the compound and he keeps telling me, ah, they're not going to reduce my sentence. They're going to fuck me.
They're going to fuck me.

Speaker 4 I'm like, yeah, well, then we'll get Frank to file something. Frank's the lawyer that helped me.
I said, we'll get Frank to file something. Ah, you don't understand.

Speaker 4 They think I've hidden Ponzi scheme money. I'm like, well, you haven't.
So, you know, don't worry about it. They'd have to prove that to, to use that to withhold a reduction.
You're cooperating.

Speaker 4 They've been rest. They're arresting these guys.
You're about to go to trial. These guys are going to go to trial.
Like you're good.

Speaker 4 And he's like, dad, you don't understand. You don't understand.
So this goes on for a month or so. And then one day I go, you keep saying this, bro.
Like he's, I don't, and he goes, can I trust you?

Speaker 4 Can I tell you something? I went, yeah. And he goes, can I trust you? And I go,

Speaker 4 probably not. Like, I just got back from fucking, like, I'm.
done told everybody. I want out of here.

Speaker 4 Guys would come up to me in the chow law hall, right? Or anywhere and they'd go, hey, Cox, how much time you got?

Speaker 4 And I go, well, I got 26 years, but somebody might fuck up and tell me where there's a body. I could be out of here next month.
You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 4 And they'd go, and they'd go, oh, damn, bro, it's like that. I go, it's exactly like that.
Oh, man, you'd snitch on a motherfucker in a heartbeat. I'm not here to make friends.

Speaker 4 I don't want to be friends. I want to go home.
And, and, and they were like, damn, that's fucked up. And they'd walk off.

Speaker 4 So, knowing, by the way, that like 90% of all the inmates of the federal system have cooperated, by the way, but 100% are lying.

Speaker 4 They'll all tell you that they're, you know, you know, I can tell you, I mean, guys, I've have come on my show,

Speaker 4 gone through the whole story, never mentioned cooperating, but I'm, I know you were caught with three, you know, three,

Speaker 4 three kilos of heroin, which is like a 20-year sentence. Yeah.
And yet you had a good lawyer and got seven years.

Speaker 4 And then afterwards, I'm like, you know, they're like, yo, bro, I saw that, that look you gave me. And I was like, right.
I'm like, well, I said, said, you know, it's none of my business.

Speaker 4 It's, if that's what you want to tell people, that's none of my business.

Speaker 4 And they're like,

Speaker 4 yeah, bro, listen, I cooperated. I just don't want it out there.
I, I'm like, no, I get it. I get it.
And they're like, I know you get hit. Like, you don't give a fuck.

Speaker 4 You know, um, but that happens all the time. Like, I've got like these guys will like, they're all cooperating.
They just don't want to say it.

Speaker 4 So I'm honest because as a true sociopath, like, I don't give a fuck what, what, you know, your opinion of me means about as much as that stick of fucking furniture. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Speaker 4 So, and I, you know, and I, I think I told E.M. Bick this.
I said, I had to, I figured out a long time ago, I had to make a choice. It was between your,

Speaker 4 well, not you, but the respect of a bunch of criminals or my freedom.

Speaker 4 And I choose my freedom. So

Speaker 4 what happens is I'm walking around with this guy, Ron Wilson, and he says, yeah, he says, can I trust you? And I go, probably not. And he goes, he kind of chuckles and he says,

Speaker 4 I did hide Ponzi scheme money. I was like, really? And he's like, yeah.
He's like, my wife has $150,000

Speaker 4 and my brother's got like maybe 20 or 30,000. He's holding for me.
But my fear is that my wife, his wife had found out he was having, had, had been having an affair.

Speaker 4 She's just going to turn it in to fuck me. And I go, she's not going to do that.
She's already lied to the FBI and said she didn't have anything. Well, actually, his was the Secret Service.

Speaker 4 She's already lied about that. She's not going to do that.
She'd get charged. He's like, oh, you don't understand.
She's crazy. Okay.

Speaker 4 So about a month later, I have to call my lawyer because I I was writing a memoir because I wrote a memoir.

Speaker 4 And I was, and I'd written a memoir, but I wanted to update my memoir about my sentence and getting reduced.

Speaker 4 So I asked for my transcript. So, but my lawyer never sent them to me, right? It'd been like three months now.
So I called my lawyer and said, listen, you didn't send me the transcript.

Speaker 4 She's like, oh, Matt, I'm sorry. I never, I called the woman.
I got this. I'll get him.
I'll get him. I'll send him to you.
Okay. She says, what's going on? I went, what do you mean? Nothing's going.

Speaker 4 She says, nothing happening in there? I went, like, what? Like, this is a woman never wanted to talk to me before. You know, I was like, well, about what?

Speaker 4 And she goes, I don't know, anything you want to talk about? And it was so weird. And I went, well, yeah, listen to this.

Speaker 4 And I tell her what happened with Ron. And she goes, let me look into it.
Might be something there. I went, okay.

Speaker 4 They didn't want to give me anything the first time when I deserved it.

Speaker 4 I don't think they're going to give me anything for recouping what, less than $200,000. Yeah.

Speaker 4 For a guy that you're using as a witness. You don't want to find out he's, you don't want to find out he's, he's no good, right?

Speaker 4 You find out that, you can't can't use him as a witness right so that doesn't help them they don't want to believe any of that you know that's i know this is going nowhere but a week later i get called by sis which is internal security for the prison and they go hey come here you got to talk to somebody and they got they got a secret service agent on the phone so i go what's going on he's like i understand you know where there's hidden positions game money i said well you know so we i said i need an agreement so we get something in writing again which i know is basically useless but then i eventually i after we go back and forth forth a little bit over the next week or two, I tell him what's going on.

Speaker 4 This is what he said.

Speaker 4 They end up bringing the wife in. She turns in $350,000.
Wow. The brother comes in.
He gives them another $150,000 in cash. So it's cash and

Speaker 4 precious metals. It's half a million dollars.
They indict both of them. They both get probation, by the way.

Speaker 4 They re-indict. Wilson.
He gets six months added on to his sentence.

Speaker 4 They don't want to give me anything. Wow.
And I have a letter that says, we will reduce your sentence if we recoup money or

Speaker 4 in an indictment. They don't want to honor it.
They go, it wasn't enough. It wasn't, fuck you.
So Frank files another 2255s, fights with him for another six months.

Speaker 4 He gets another five years knocked off my sentence. Nice.
By the time the second five years gets knocked off, I got like 18 months to go.

Speaker 4 So 18, well, really, in about a year later, I'm in the halfway house.

Speaker 4 So i got seven months of halfway house i go to a halfway house i'm in seven months of halfway house i save my money for seven months i get out

Speaker 4 and i get out and i start a podcast you know

Speaker 4 so yeah i about a year after i got out of the halfway house i started this podcast and it's you know i got like 500 000 subscribers it's doing great i'd also while i was locked up i wrote a bunch of true crime books which i've optioned the rights to the true crime books.

Speaker 4 I optioned the rights to my story. It's never been, it's never been made.
It gets optioned. It gets optioned.
It gets up. Nothing.
I'm sure one of these days someone will pick it up.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that'd be nice.

Speaker 4 But let's listen to be honest. If it never happens, I'm okay.

Speaker 4 Like, of course, it'd be great if it did happen, but let's face it, like, I should be in prison right now. Like, I'm thrilled at where my life is right now.

Speaker 4 Like, I've been absolutely blessed and I'm so overwhelmingly lucky. And well, here's what's funny.

Speaker 4 You know, almost every one of the people that cooperated against me or went to prison and everybody that went to prison, by the way, because two people did go to prison.

Speaker 4 Both of them still talk to me oh wow you know one of them's named allison she still talks to me a guy named eric uh he still talks to me

Speaker 4 uh actually my buddy travis still talks to me yeah it's a happy ending for you guys yeah like i get it like i i hear you i got no reason to be you know upset

Speaker 4 man where can people find the pod oh yeah you know it's youtube it's it's inside true crime it's matthew cox inside true crime and uh you know it's on the same thing it's all the platforms are inside true crime it's our TikTok.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 we'll link below, man. Thanks for coming on.
Can't wait to do a part two with you, Wenda. That was awesome.
Yeah. When I come back.
Yeah. Check them out, guys.
We'll link below. See you next time.

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