Sara Jane Ho: From Harvard to Hustle: Insights for Modern Entrepreneurs | DSH #1455

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Speaker 2 everybody's score and ranking is like pasted on the wall. Wow.
So you all see exactly where you stand. That's crazy.

Speaker 4 I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 And it is kind of a way of like shaking

Speaker 2 at the bottom.

Speaker 4 Do you think they should do that here in America?

Speaker 2 I don't know. America's its own culture.

Speaker 4 Okay, guys, Sarah Jane here, etiquette expert, expert, has her own show on Netflix and her own book. Thanks for coming on today.

Speaker 2 Thank you for having me.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I know nothing about etiquette, so I'm actually excited to learn.

Speaker 4 My mom used to really scream at me at the lunch table for poor etiquette when I was younger.

Speaker 2 Well, she's a Chinese mom, right? Yeah. Tiger.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 She actually, she's a snake, but yeah. Similar, similar energy, right?

Speaker 2 No, but tiger. She's a snake and a tiger mom.
Yeah, yeah. But

Speaker 2 that's good. You always want a strict mom.
You know, like when I teach etiquette, when I opened my etiquette schools first, firstly in China, right?

Speaker 2 I brought the concept of a Swiss finishing school to China. It was for ladies.
So I teach adult women. And everybody was like, oh, you should have a kids course.

Speaker 2 And I said, but no, like etiquette begins from the mother.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 what you said, like, you know, the mother is a single most important figure in a kid's life. And it really is her who should be the one kind of like showing her kid the ways of the world.

Speaker 4 Well, Asian mothers are pretty pretty strict with it, but I think in the long run, it toughened me up, you know?

Speaker 2 Tough love.

Speaker 4 Tough love. I'm a believer in it.
I know some people aren't, but for me, it worked.

Speaker 2 Yeah, were you spanked?

Speaker 4 I was spanked. I was slapped in the face if I hit the wrong piano note.

Speaker 2 Wow, that is real tough love. I was spanked.
I listen, like, I don't think it was a bad thing that I was spanked for being multi.

Speaker 2 Like, sometimes you just need a good spanking. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But to be slapped in the face for hitting hitting the wrong piano note,

Speaker 4 that's rough. It is rough.
I had to quit piano.

Speaker 2 Next level. That's like Korean moms.

Speaker 4 Crazy things. Koreans are like that.

Speaker 2 Yeah. They get over.
That's why so many Koreans become stars. Like, you know, the Asian stars? Really? That are Korean? Yeah.

Speaker 2 They were all like, you know, performance pianists and this and that because their mothers were so strict.

Speaker 4 I know Koreans get really drunk, right?

Speaker 2 They do.

Speaker 2 They do. That's why, you know, growing up in Hong Kong,

Speaker 2 basically, old Chinese girls were told by their parents, don't marry a Korean guy because he's going to beat you up. I'm probably going to get canceled by a lot of Koreans now.

Speaker 2 But it's kind of the saying.

Speaker 4 You might. There's a lot of Koreans that get hammered and get a little angry, you know?

Speaker 4 How's the etiquette in America compared to China? Like, is it really different?

Speaker 2 You know, I don't want to get canceled in America.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 yeah,

Speaker 2 it's really different. It's really different.

Speaker 2 And I often say in etiquette, there is never like a black or white right or wrong. It's contextual.
So it really depends on who you're with.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 even like the culture, the age of the people, right? Like what industry, the circle you're in.

Speaker 2 But I split my time between the US and China. I love it because they're two of my most favorite countries in the world and they could not be more different.

Speaker 2 And when I'm in China, like I'm really fucking Chinese to the point that like my parents, who you know, I mean, my family's like, I grew up in Hong Kong, right?

Speaker 2 To the point that my dad is like, whoa, like, when did you come so mainland? Damn. And when I'm in America, I'm really American.

Speaker 4 Interesting. So you kind of can turn it on and off.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And, but to me, to me, like, the highest goal of etiquette is to go native.

Speaker 2 My favorite course at at Georgetown was anthropology and it's the study of human behavior.

Speaker 2 And we would often talk about like being in the field, like in anthropology, which is really just the observation, like you would go to Papua New Guinea or you go to New York City and you kind of like observe that's being in the field.

Speaker 2 And the goal ultimately is to go native. And I feel that for me, I love it when I can feel like I'm going native no matter where I am.

Speaker 4 Yeah. So you like it in LA, huh?

Speaker 2 I love it in LA. Really?

Speaker 4 I hear either you hate it or love it when it comes to LA.

Speaker 2 You know, I used to always think of myself as an East Coast girl because when I was 14 years old, I left Hong Kong, big city, right?

Speaker 2 Moved to Exeter, New Hampshire for boarding school, and then Georgetown and Harvard Business School. I also worked in New York City.
So I am very much an East Coast girl.

Speaker 2 And then I spent... well over a decade of my career in China opening my finishing schools.
Now when my Netflix show came out, Mind Your Matters came out, and I had a a lot more opportunity.

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Speaker 2 Come back stateside. I was trying to think if I should just get a place here and should I base myself out of LA or New York?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I chose LA because

Speaker 2 I believe in having different experiences, like having new and fresh experiences. So LA to me was a new city.

Speaker 2 In terms of like my Netflix stuff or, you know, my podcast stuff, I launched a Mind Dream Matters podcast. It made more sense to be in LA as well.

Speaker 2 And in retrospect, I'm so glad I chose LA because the wellness and spirituality, like sort of the spiritual growth that I've had is exactly what I needed after spending a decade in China.

Speaker 4 Interesting.

Speaker 2 Like in China, there's a lot of focus on material growth.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And even Hong Kong, Hong Kong is an extremely materialistic society. The culture is money.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 And there's very little spirituality. I mean, a lot of people will say,

Speaker 2 a lot of people will,

Speaker 2 like, of course,

Speaker 2 there's Buddhism, there's Taoism, all that stuff, which I really respect and I lean into.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 there's not that many people who are,

Speaker 2 I don't want to get canceled by Jesus.

Speaker 2 But like, when there's like some businessman who's like playing with his Buddhist beads, saying, I have a Buddha shrine in my temple, I'm like,

Speaker 2 yeah, like that, that's like a red flag for me. But coming to LA and learning about just so much of the spiritual healing that's that's going on.
It's really helped with my spiritual growth.

Speaker 4 I could see that. Yeah.
If I brought up spirituality or mental health to my Chinese mother growing up, she would have

Speaker 4 laughed at me. You know what I mean? Like, that's like taboo to talk about.

Speaker 2 Well, yeah, like therapy is, you know, nobody gets therapy in China. I mean, now, thank God, it's changing because the younger kids are realizing the importance of it.

Speaker 2 But there are some huge cultural differences.

Speaker 4 Oh, I bet. When I first went to therapy, I felt so much shame, to be honest.
Like, I was like, damn, I'm really going to therapy.

Speaker 2 What age did you go?

Speaker 4 I went went in college. So I was like 21 or something.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you were young, but what, what a beautiful thing that you went.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, mental health is a big thing these days, you know?

Speaker 2 Because I didn't, I didn't start seeing a therapist till I was 29. Wow.
Which was.

Speaker 4 You had a lot of trauma by then.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Dating all the wrong guys.

Speaker 2 You know, I'll always think of my dating life as pre and post therapy.

Speaker 4 Well, it must be intimidating to date you because like you're, you're the etiquette queen. I mean, you know what I mean? These guys are like, shit, I got to be on point.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 yeah,

Speaker 2 I remember I went on a date in Beijing.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 the great thing, and remember, like, I didn't speak Mandarin growing up, right? I spoke Cantonese because I grew up in Hong Kong.

Speaker 2 And the language of China is Mandarin.

Speaker 2 But a great way to brush up on your language is to date somebody native. So, you know, I was dating, you know, Chinese guys.
who didn't speak English.

Speaker 2 And I remember I went on a date. There was a guy took me out on a super fancy date at this French restaurant.
And he was really sweet.

Speaker 2 And then at the end of it, he said, he said, he said, do you mind telling me if there's, since you teach etiquette, is there anything that I did that was bad etiquette tonight?

Speaker 2 I know. Yeah.
That was tough.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And, but like, I just, I just, I laughed and I said, I said, you know,

Speaker 2 because I really, I don't try to look out for like bad etiquette things that people do because why, why would I put that on myself or on the other person?

Speaker 2 Um, but I just kind of laughed and I said, Oh, you know, well, the way you um ate your oyster with your button knife was kind of cute.

Speaker 4 Well, there's certain things that are definitely a turnoff, like mouth chewers,

Speaker 2 a lot of those all over the world, especially in China with the soup.

Speaker 4 Oh my god, they'd be slurping it up right next to me at the full spot.

Speaker 2 You know what? When I'm in China, I'm slurping it up too. Like, you're allowed with it, though.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you go, you go to do because that shows it's tasty. I mean, it's still like a ladylike slurp, it's not one of those like

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Speaker 2 No, farm-style slubs, yeah, but it is one of the differences.

Speaker 4 I guess, yeah, I guess if it's part of the culture, you got to respect it, right? I didn't know people, Chinese people saw that as like a compliment, yeah.

Speaker 2 And you know what?

Speaker 2 In China, if you tell someone that they're fat, it's polite, really, yeah, in America, no way you would get like

Speaker 2 you'd get harpooned if you told somebody, like, hey, you look fatter these days. But in China,

Speaker 2 it's actually, it's very polite and it's kind of flattering because it shows that you're engaging with somebody and that you care.

Speaker 2 And so just as someone will be like, oh, have you eaten yet? Like, have you had lunch? Or, oh, you look a little fatter. What's wrong? Oh, you look like you're heaty.

Speaker 2 You know, because people love to use traditional Chinese medicine kind of phrases. Like, you look like you have too much heat in you.
Is everything okay? Are you stressed?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 so I'll do that when I see my friends in China. Or when they see me, they'll be like, oh, you lost weight.
Like, oh, you gained weight.

Speaker 4 I actually like that. I like being direct.
I feel like Chinese people are pretty direct. Super direct.
Yeah, not even just with weight, but just in general. Like, they won't hold back.
Yep.

Speaker 4 Which is good if you can handle it, right? Some people, that would break them mentally, I think.

Speaker 2 Yeah, people are soft these days.

Speaker 4 I think so. Very soft.

Speaker 2 Your generation is also pretty soft.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I'm like a millennial.

Speaker 4 I'm a millennial. I'm the last year.
I was born in 97.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 So, you know, the generation below you is Gen Z, I i think gen z they're too soft what do you think is causing them to be so soft their parents

Speaker 2 over coddling it's really interesting i feel that with gen z on the one hand they have so much empathy for the world in terms of like environmentalism and um you know being politically correct and and woke ideals etc right and and um and the care and concern they have for our planet is a beautiful thing

Speaker 2 but at the same time it's like they have no empathy for people around them who, let's say,

Speaker 2 whether they're at workplaces, right?

Speaker 2 Because, like, companies are firing, they're not happy with that generation of employees because they're like, oh, you said this to me, I'm going to sue you, or I'm going to quit. Right.

Speaker 2 There's a lack of grit.

Speaker 4 I can see that. I wonder if social media played a role in that.

Speaker 2 Probably.

Speaker 4 Because now you could just say whatever you want. And then once you're in person, you don't know how to act.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. I

Speaker 2 so I went to Phillips Exerc Academy. And and actually I gave this year I gave the opening assembly talk to the students there

Speaker 2 and um and I was chatting with you know the teachers and the students and there's there's an Instagram handle account called like Asian at Exeter, Black at Exeter.

Speaker 2 And you know, it's good to have a voice, but then sometimes, you know, then it like, I feel like teachers are afraid of students now.

Speaker 4 Because they don't want them talking about them.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like on social media and canceling them. Right.
Saying like, oh, this, this teacher did this and this.

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Speaker 2 And back in my day, students are afraid of teachers. And I don't think I want to send my kid to a school where the teachers are afraid of them because I want them to be disciplined

Speaker 2 and respectful towards that teacher.

Speaker 2 Maybe I'm too much of a tiger mom. I don't know.

Speaker 4 No, I agree. I didn't know that was happening in schools, but that makes sense because now if you have 50 kids in a class all talking online about the teacher, they could get fired, right?

Speaker 2 Exactly. Teachers live in fear of students.
Wow.

Speaker 4 That's going to have them hold back the teachers. Yeah.
They'll be scared to teach controversial topics.

Speaker 2 Yes. Yeah.
Or even they're even scared to give kids a bad grade. Then the kid will be like, oh, I don't deserve a B plus.
I should get an A minus. And then, you know,

Speaker 2 otherwise I'll count you on social media.

Speaker 4 Yeah. When it comes to grades, I feel like Asians are the strictest.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we don't believe in grade inflation. Yeah.

Speaker 4 I I don't think

Speaker 4 you can't get much more strict than Chinese mothers with grades.

Speaker 2 And you know, I mean, your mother's from Beijing, right? Yeah. So in mainland China, the public schools, everybody's score and ranking is like pasted on the wall.
Wow.

Speaker 2 So you will see exactly where you stand. That's crazy.

Speaker 2 I didn't know that. And it is kind of a way of like shaming you if

Speaker 2 you're like at the bottom.

Speaker 4 Do you think they should do that here in America?

Speaker 2 I don't know. America's its own culture.

Speaker 4 That's true. I think too many parents would complain about that here.
Wow. Shout out to my mom for dealing with that.
I did not know.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah. She went to the best university over there.

Speaker 2 Tinhoi. Yeah.
Wow.

Speaker 4 Yeah. She said it was really hard to get into it.

Speaker 2 That is impressive.

Speaker 4 I know. And I'm like the opposite.
I got like D's and had a one-point.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Dropped out.
You know, but dropouts are the way to go in America, right? These days.

Speaker 2 Mock sucker bug.

Speaker 4 In China, you drop out. You're getting kicked out of of your family, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean,

Speaker 2 it's over. And in China, your whole life depends on one school, which is called GaoCal.

Speaker 2 And GaoCal is at the end of high school, you take one exam. That school you get determines your life because it determines what university you go to,

Speaker 2 which then, you know, I mean, basically, determines the rest of your life. Wow.

Speaker 4 That's a lot of pressure on that test.

Speaker 2 Holy crap.

Speaker 4 So is that like the SATs of China?

Speaker 2 No, because in America, you have SATs, but that's just like a what, 20% portion. It's like a check check, like, okay, they got a 1600, whatever it is.
Yeah. But then there's an interview portion.

Speaker 2 There's like, oh, Vasti Sports, your personality. Do you have a portfolio? Right.
And that's why rich families in China or even families in China who

Speaker 2 know that their kid will not get a good Gao score, then they send them to America.

Speaker 4 There's a lot of Chinese students

Speaker 2 at universities. Probably like hundreds of thousands.
Yeah, it's a good amount.

Speaker 4 I always wondered why they were coming here, but that makes sense now.

Speaker 2 Because of that one score. Damn, that's crazy.

Speaker 4 You went to boarding school. You were a year behind Mark Zuckerberg.

Speaker 2 Yes. Did you ever meet him?

Speaker 2 We, so we weren't friends. I mean, we, like, I definitely knew who he was.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Uh,

Speaker 2 and he actually is very much like how he's portrayed in that movie, um, the social network.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I saw that one.

Speaker 2 I was like, wow, like, it's so on point.

Speaker 2 He,

Speaker 2 his best friend was a guy um

Speaker 2 called

Speaker 2 uh adam d'angelo

Speaker 2 and in my dorm at exeter i was assigned when you knew you were assigned like a big sister in your dorm who takes care of you and this vietnamese girl steph wen steph knew you and steph wen she she she lived directly opposite me and she was my assigned big sister and if you open our doors you'd see into each other's rooms And so she was dating this, she was a senior.

Speaker 2 I was a sophomore. And she was dating a junior who's a super tall, lanky guy,

Speaker 2 Adam D'Angelo. And he would come and visit her.
And sometimes she'd be like, oh, you know, Sarah Jane, come over, hang out with us. And so I'd go over and say hi.

Speaker 2 And she'd be like, oh, Adam, we need to, we need to find, we need to find Sarah boyfriend. How about your best friend, Mark?

Speaker 2 He likes Asian girls.

Speaker 4 So even back then, he liked them.

Speaker 2 Well, you know, I mean,

Speaker 2 probably.

Speaker 2 And I remember being like, hew, he's a nerd.

Speaker 4 biggest fumble your life biggest fumble of my life did you know at the time he was gonna be successful or was he just

Speaker 2 well you know our school had a lot of really interesting students yeah

Speaker 2 the term facebook actually came from a book at our school wow officially it was called the photo address book but colloquially everybody called it the Facebook.

Speaker 2 So we'd say, and this was, you know, I graduated in 2003 from Exeter. I went there in 2000.
So it was before cell phones, right?

Speaker 2 And everybody had like a phone landline extension in their room and then email address, which is like kind of just kicked off, this whole email thing.

Speaker 2 And people would say, oh, like, look, get his extension in the Facebook. Oh, look her up in the Facebook.

Speaker 2 It had literally every student's black and white photo, their home address, and then their email and their extension. And so I can only guess that.

Speaker 2 The Facebook that term came from. Wow.

Speaker 4 Is that where the Winklevoss twins went to? Or was that college when they were going to go?

Speaker 2 No, the Winklevoss twin or the winkle vie which i think is so hilarious

Speaker 2 yeah because you know it's like the plural of winklevoss oh i thought it was so clever to know that in the social network um the winklevoss twins went to harvard undergrad with him i don't know where they went for boarding school okay you went to harvard too right business school oh yeah i went to georgetown undergrad and then hbs was that like the hardest four years of your life which one harvard well mba is two years oh two years and the hardest thing is really getting in

Speaker 2 i remember once i got in

Speaker 2 my dad said, and my dad hosted like a big family dinner for me in Hong Kong before I went off to boarding school. I was, I was before I went off to Harvard Business School when I was 24.

Speaker 2 And he raised his glass, he said, I don't have high expectations of my daughter at Harvard Business School. I just wish that she doesn't fail.

Speaker 2 And I was like, dad, you can't even have a street A student at Georgetown. Like,

Speaker 2 I'm not going to fail. Like, I can't believe you sit there in front of our whole family.

Speaker 2 And he's like, I know my daughter. I just hope she doesn't fail out of Harvard Business School.
And I was like, yeah, whatever. And then I got to Harvard Business School.

Speaker 2 And the way things are, the way you're graded is on a bell curve.

Speaker 2 So the bottom 10%

Speaker 2 get a grade three. The top 10%

Speaker 2 in class get a grade one. And then the middle 80% get a grade two.

Speaker 2 And everybody was telling me, like, I had some friends who were second years because MBA is a two-year program.

Speaker 2 And they were like, oh, it's impossible to get a grade two. It's impossible to get a,

Speaker 2 they said, it's impossible to get a three. It's impossible to get a three, right?

Speaker 2 Because that means you're the bottom 10 of the class so i in my mind i was like it's impossible to get a three so i never studied i walked into every exam cold

Speaker 2 um but i did all the readings and i loved being in class and everything

Speaker 2 and um and i would count like how many grade threes i could get away with to move on you know to the next semester or next year and in fact um a week before graduation if i

Speaker 2 if I didn't rewrite an independent study essay, I would have failed out of Harvard School. Wow.

Speaker 2 And I remember like, there's like a one week or two week break in between when you finish classes and you graduate. Yeah.
And I'd gone back to Beijing.

Speaker 2 Actually, I'd gone to China to visit some friends. And I was sitting at dinner in a restaurant.
And on my Blackberry, I got an email from my independent study professor.

Speaker 2 And they said, Sarah Jane, you didn't make the changes that you said you would make in this essay. You just turned in the same version.
If that's the case, I'm going to have to give you a three.

Speaker 2 And I immediately mentally counted, wait, what other classes do I have threes in? And I was like, shit, that means I'm not going to graduate. I literally, I left the dinner table right there.

Speaker 2 I was like, guys, I'm sorry. I'm going to go.
Went back, opened my laptop, revised my essay, and graduated.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 4 Was it worth it?

Speaker 2 Really?

Speaker 4 You actually utilized the degree?

Speaker 2 You know, they say that business school.

Speaker 2 I think that it doesn't make sense to go to business school unless you're going to like a really tough business school. Right.
Because the people you meet are so inspirational. And

Speaker 2 my like the friends that I met there, they challenge me, they provoke me in the best way, they inspire me.

Speaker 2 I'm learning from, we're learning from each other all the time.

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Speaker 2 For me, it was also a great way because I'd done investment banking before that.

Speaker 2 And in investment banking, I'd worked so hard. But in so career growth, I felt like I had a lot of career growth.
But personally, like I didn't have any time for self-reflection, no bandwidth to...

Speaker 2 be present in myself.

Speaker 2 So there was like basically no personal growth and definitely no spiritual growth. And going to Harvard Business School gave me a two-year place to park myself, which looked good on the resume.

Speaker 2 I was meeting amazing folks, um, but at the same time, I was able to spend a lot of time not just partying,

Speaker 2 you know, which I did a lot of, but also just thinking, like, what do I want out of life? What do I want to live?

Speaker 2 Yeah, and it was there that I had my business idea to move to Beijing and open an etiquette school.

Speaker 4 I love it. I got to hear about these Harvard parties.

Speaker 2 Oh, they were, yeah, they were actually party over there.

Speaker 2 Are you kidding me? Like, four times a week, no way, partied till 5 or 6 a.m. What? It's Harvard?

Speaker 2 HBS is a huge party school.

Speaker 4 All these nerds are out here drinking and.

Speaker 2 Yeah, because, you know, the hardest part is getting in. And then, and then you just kind of coast.
But everybody's super social.

Speaker 2 Well, I guess not everybody, but like a lot of people is very social. I remember I'd sleep for an hour, wake up at seven, and I'd go to class.
Holy crap. You can only do that in your 20s.

Speaker 4 Yeah, there's no way right now I could pull that off.

Speaker 2 No, me at 39 now, no. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Still looking for a husband?

Speaker 2 Me? Yeah.

Speaker 2 I have a a husband. Oh, you do? I do.
How long have you been married? I've been married for three years.

Speaker 2 My husband doesn't speak English. He's in China.
Wow. Yeah.
It's so great. I mean, sometimes I do have to use Google Translate.
Oh, he speaks Mandarin? Yeah, when he throws out like a Chinese idiom.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, what does this mean? Hang on.

Speaker 4 Damn. So you picked a Chinese guy over American.
I see how it is. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Damn.

Speaker 2 But no, he's amazing. I feel very lucky.

Speaker 4 That's impressive that you can do six months there, six months here. He doesn't come with you.

Speaker 2 No, no, no. I'm back and forth like every month.
Oh, okay. Yeah, and he comes too.

Speaker 4 Nice. Does he like it over here?

Speaker 2 He loves it. My stepson was born in LA.
Really? So we're very comfortable in LA.

Speaker 4 I think it's good to experience multi-cultures too. Totally.
Like I'm a halfy and got to see my white-ass family on the farm and then the Asian side, you know, working hard.

Speaker 2 Were they literally on the farm? Yeah. My dad grew up on a farm.
In Ireland?

Speaker 4 In Pennsylvania. Yeah.

Speaker 4 So that's how my whole dad's side of the family was raised.

Speaker 2 Wow. You know, I think the ultimate luxury these days is to have a farm, to have your own chickens, laying your own eggs, you know, getting your own rule milk.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I just started one, a little garden.

Speaker 2 In Vegas?

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's hard out here. It's really hard.

Speaker 2 What do you have?

Speaker 4 We got tomatoes, jalapeno peppers,

Speaker 4 basil,

Speaker 4 strawberries. There's not much you could grow out here.

Speaker 4 We're in a desert, so.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I know. So you have like a greenhouse?

Speaker 4 No, it's outside, just in the shade and then we got a lemon tree lime tree pomegranate tree i like i like uh gardening yeah nice who's we me and my fiancé getting married this year congratulations

Speaker 4 eight years in finally pulled the trigger that wow so all of your 20s you're with one pussy yeah i've been with the same girl my whole life how do you feel good i hear about the dating stories these days and it's It's hard.

Speaker 4 Horrible. Dating in America.

Speaker 2 Really? Yeah, it's rough.

Speaker 2 Well, wow, interesting.

Speaker 4 You don't hear these stories with your friends out here?

Speaker 2 Yes, now, but to me,

Speaker 2 dating in New York in my 20s was just

Speaker 2 the most fun thing. Really? Ever.
And it was remembered as like pre-apps, right?

Speaker 4 Pre-ops, pre-OnlyFans.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I just love the pickup culture.

Speaker 2 And you would, I just met so many interesting people, not necessarily that I dated, but even some I just became friends with, because you'd be clubbing, you'd be tables next to each other, or you'd be in Chinatown getting dim sum, and then somebody would walk over.

Speaker 2 And I think it's a great shame for the younger generation, for the post-app, dating app, post-dating app generation, to have missed out on the pickup culture.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you don't get picked up in person anymore. Guys aren't confident as they used to be, I feel like.

Speaker 2 Well, I think that...

Speaker 2 I don't think it's like necessarily the change in confidence in guys. I just think that it's easier now to hide behind it.

Speaker 2 True. Like guys didn't that before.

Speaker 2 But it is tough for guys. It is, I guess, like, rejection is a real thing, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I used to get rejected. Yeah, it sucks.

Speaker 2 And so, would you rather just even not reach out?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I'd rather not even do it, you know.

Speaker 4 It sucks to get rejected.

Speaker 2 You can't relate.

Speaker 4 Girls don't get rejected, you know.

Speaker 4 People pursue girls, like guys pursue, and then you just sit back and pick who you want.

Speaker 4 It's easier.

Speaker 4 You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it no, it is, It is easier being a girl in that sense. In that sense.
But I do feel like younger girls do actively pursue guys. Like, I feel like the younger generation, they ask guys out.

Speaker 2 And I think, really?

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I, and, and they'll, sometimes I'll like just DM me that on Instagram.
And I'll be like, that is good for you. Like, that is a sign of confidence.
Really?

Speaker 4 I wish that happened to me.

Speaker 4 I didn't know that was a thing. Too late for you now.
I know. I got the one now, so I'm chilling.

Speaker 4 Hopefully, some kids soon and start a family.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Feng Shui.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yo, yeah. I grew up with it.

Speaker 4 I'm going to have to learn from you how to set up the house and the office.

Speaker 4 So that stuff actually works, huh? Yeah.

Speaker 4 What's the idea behind it, I guess?

Speaker 2 So, so feng shui,

Speaker 2 feng means, feng shui. Okay, so feng means wind.
Shui means water. So actually feng shui literally translate means wind water.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it's about, I guess you can look at feng shui, like people think of feng shui practically as arranging your house, right? And that's kind of like the easiest way to understand it.

Speaker 2 But it's actually much more encompassing than just arranging your house. It can be looking at your face and seeing how the features of your face,

Speaker 2 you know, what that says about your personality. It can be taking your batsu.

Speaker 2 Ba is eight. It's characters.
And these are the eight characters that are the year, month, date, time of your birth.

Speaker 2 And from this, a feng shui master can figure out, deduct the date of your death whoa what yeah so you could predict date of your birth we can we can like a feng shui masa will know the date of your death and is that pretty accurate usually i'll tell you so about that okay um and so people so

Speaker 2 and and so it's like it's really all-encompassing uh but the way we really think of it is there are a couple phrases you know like yin and yang right people like to throw around so it's really about like having a space and energy that is harmonious so whether that's yin and yang so yin being kind of the soft the feminine the moon the dark, yang being the masculine, the sun, the hard, right?

Speaker 2 Like every part of your body or every space in your house needs to have like a balance of yin and yang. There's also the five elements,

Speaker 2 so that's metal,

Speaker 2 wood, water,

Speaker 2 fire, and earth, right? Like even in your house, these need to have, there needs to be a balance of elements.

Speaker 2 If you have a house, and it's very trendy these days, to have an all-white house, like white sofa, white carpet, white walls, like blah, blah, blah, that actually, in feng shui terms, that will cause you anxiety.

Speaker 2 Damn. Because it's too extreme.

Speaker 2 There isn't a balance.

Speaker 2 So that's an example.

Speaker 2 And feng shui is about, it's about maximizing the upside of your life and minimizing the downside.

Speaker 2 So if you know, for example, that this year you can tell on your chart, like this year is going to be a rocky year.

Speaker 2 then you arrange things or you put certain feng shui objects in places that will help you minimize that downside.

Speaker 2 Because in Chinese culture, we believe that your destiny is already laid out, right?

Speaker 2 But that with it, but there's, but you can also change it slightly according to feng shui and also like acts that you do as a human being, right?

Speaker 4 It's karma, yeah.

Speaker 2 And it's interesting because I'm studying Kabbalah right now, and actually, Kabbalah says the same thing: like half of your destiny is like they say 50% is fixed, but 50% you can't actually change.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 2 So, when you asked me,

Speaker 2 can

Speaker 2 from a from a date of birth, can we tell the date of death?

Speaker 2 I grew up in Hong Kong with function masters running around the house since as young as I can remember.

Speaker 2 And we had a function master, his name was Rambo. What a name.
I know. I think he lives in Macau now.
He has a lot of casino clients.

Speaker 2 And but he, so he told my mother that when she was 52 years old, she'd always, she would stop working.

Speaker 2 And my mother was.

Speaker 2 a workaholic. I mean, she loved to work.
She was very ambitious. She was a career woman, always working late nights, like going on business trips, and she really thrived in it.

Speaker 2 And when Rambo told her this, I remember I was off at boarding school at this point.

Speaker 2 She would, every now and then she'd bring it up, she'd say, you know, Rambo said that by 52, I'm going to stop working and I'm really anxious, like, what, what will happen to me? And I'm so scared.

Speaker 2 And da, da, da, da, da.

Speaker 2 And I would say, mom, like, stop. Like, you know, maybe we'll find something else to do.
You, you know, who knows what, like, but maybe do like philanthropy or something. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And when she was 51, she was diagnosed with terminal liver liver cancer damn uh and and when she died she was it was before the age of 52 no way yeah

Speaker 2 holy crap that's scary yeah because i kind of don't want to know when i'm going to die you know what i mean i don't want to know either i feel like it's better just to live and so that's why rambo had never told her when she never said this is when you'll die he said it's when you're going to stop working damn so he knew but he just didn't because he can't he can't reveal the secret of the heavens to that degree once my mother got that diagnosis my father immediately called rambo and said you said this about my wife now she's got this diagnosis what's going to happen is she going to make it and rambo was just very he was like oh yeah yeah no she'll be fine she'll recover and then you know she'll just kind of do pursue her interests but he knew he just couldn't sing he couldn't sing that's nuts and then so then my dad got a second functionary master as a second opinion yeah

Speaker 2 and um he gave that functionary master our families like bats right the eight characters that show you know until time of birth.

Speaker 2 And when he picked up that function master team to our house, as soon as the function master got into the car, and my dad even mentioned my mother's diagnosis, the first thing he said was, Mr.

Speaker 2 Ho, this year is the worst year for your wife in terms of health. She will be hospitalized between May 15 and June 15.

Speaker 2 And if she survives that, she will be hospitalized again between October 15 and November 15.

Speaker 2 Holy crap. My dad didn't even tell, like, he just came, like, he was just working off with Batson.

Speaker 2 My mother went into the hospital June 2nd and she passed away June 7th.

Speaker 4 Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 And that and that's all part of feng shui. Wow.
That's nuts.

Speaker 4 So 50% destiny, 50% you could change.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I wonder if death is one of those things you can alter.

Speaker 2 You can, but it takes a lot. Like you have to, there's a book in a very old book in Chinese culture.
So after this happened, my dad quit his businesses and just studied feng shui. Wow.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like he was like, this is this is too crazy.

Speaker 4 Like, and just studying. So he didn't even believe it.

Speaker 2 No, we did believe it because we had feng shui masters. But like he was so affected by it.
He was like, I need to know how, how, how people can know these things.

Speaker 2 And my dad's a very studious person. He likes to learn.
So and what my dad would do is actually he would then go to the cemeteries in Hong Kong

Speaker 2 and they're kind of like stone slabs because you know people burn ashes and so they have urns like in these stone slabs and on the stone slab they have date of birth and date of death.

Speaker 2 And as because my dad's a Virgo, he's an overachiever. He would go to each one.
He would take down all the data, the names, date of birth and date of death.

Speaker 2 And then as his own homework to test himself, he would cover up the date of death and see if he could calculate from the date of birth.

Speaker 4 No way.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, he obviously didn't have the times because the time is also very important, but he... That's what he would do.
Oh, my God. And he was like a pretty accurate.

Speaker 4 Is it a specific pattern for the year you're born versus death? Is it like, does it end in the same number or something?

Speaker 2 Honestly, I've never studied it myself. It's kind of beyond me.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 2 But it's common knowledge amongst Chinese people that feng shui can tell. Damn.

Speaker 4 I do believe in the enemy year. Like I have rough years every, what is it, eight years?

Speaker 2 Ben Mingnian.

Speaker 4 Something like that.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So Ben Mingnian is in Chinese zodiac, it's 12 years.
12 years. They're 12 animals.
And what's your zodiac enemy? I'm an ox. Oh, I'm an ox too.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah i'm officially 12 years older than you wow i've never met another ox this is awesome and an ox are going to be very very hardworking very honest you know loyal uh what happens is each year is a different year right so right now 2025 or year of the steak

Speaker 2 if this year is your the same year zodiac that you were born in so let's say it's like year of the ox that is your worst year

Speaker 2 for a feng shui and so that's your enemy year i guess is what you're calling it meaning and that's when you really have to get a feng shui master and just change up stuff in your house or make sure you wear a lot of red red because red protects you against evil energy.

Speaker 4 I always liked the color red.

Speaker 2 It's a good color. I mean, Chinese people love it, red and gold.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I noticed that. They love red and dragons.

Speaker 2 Yep. Dang.
Okay.

Speaker 4 And when it comes to dating and friendships, do you care what sign they are usually?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, for me, like when I start liking someone, I mean, when I before I was married yeah like it and it's very common to kind of for people to just like throw around oh are you a pig?

Speaker 2 Are you a ox? Are you a snake?

Speaker 2 In China, right? Yeah, in China, right, in China. And but like families will care.
Families will be like, oh

Speaker 2 their zodiac signs not

Speaker 2 a good sign for our family. Damn.

Speaker 4 Because there are enemy zodiac signs, right? Each one has an enemy.

Speaker 2 Yes. So if it's four years

Speaker 2 apart,

Speaker 2 then it's chong, which is conflict.

Speaker 4 Four years apart. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then it's six liu he. So it's six years apart, it's good.
It's harmonious.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I mean, they, in fact,

Speaker 2 like, there are families I know in Hong Kong where the, the,

Speaker 2 whoever the kid was dating, they were told they could not pursue them because it was a bad ba zu. Wow.

Speaker 4 I wonder if they knew this with arranged marriages because my grandparents were arranged.

Speaker 2 On your mom's side up back in Beijing back in the day. Yeah.
Well, arranged marriages, it's kind of like China and India are very similar like this. You just have the birth date.

Speaker 2 And it's based on that.

Speaker 4 Yeah, because they never even saw each other. Like, they didn't know what the other one looked like, and they got married.
Crazy to me, but

Speaker 4 I guess that was. I don't know if they still do that, but.

Speaker 2 Not anymore.

Speaker 2 But I think in India they do.

Speaker 4 Really? Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I don't know.
I feel like

Speaker 4 I couldn't do that.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Even if we matched up on the charts, I just, I don't know.

Speaker 2 I don't think I could do it.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I want to see what they look like first at least.

Speaker 2 Like, date you first.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I'm 6'6. Like, what if they're like four feet tall or something? You know, we got to match.

Speaker 4 And there's more than just like looks, but I just want to at least look at them first.

Speaker 4 Are you doing another show or is that a one-time thing?

Speaker 2 The Netflix show was a one-time thing. I just launched my own podcast, Mindo Man is a podcast, about a month or two ago.
And I'm having a lot of fun with it. Nice.

Speaker 2 You know, like, I don't know if it's a case for you doing your podcast. Initially, for me, it's like whatever interests me is what I think will interest my audience.

Speaker 2 My podcast has also become very transformative for me.

Speaker 2 Like, not only have I learned a lot,

Speaker 2 but also it makes me reflect a lot on how I bring it into my personal life. And

Speaker 2 yeah, there's a lot of like. it's almost very confronting like some things some of the topics if they've touched me personally and i think like

Speaker 2 could i have done that better you know like in my life if applying it to my life or how how will I apply it to my life going forwards 100% podcasting is like a form of therapy for me

Speaker 4 that's exactly what it's been for me yeah yeah I get a lot off my chest I learn a lot like you said meet a lot of interesting perspectives too from around the world because a lot of people are in bubbles and they don't get outside perspectives ever yeah you know but I get to meet you I get to meet someone from Australia a feminist someone from the red pill movement all sorts of people it doesn't matter but it's fun.

Speaker 4 Shout out to podcasting. What's the goal for your show? Like, you want to build out a network?

Speaker 2 You know, I think at this point,

Speaker 2 I guess because it's a new show,

Speaker 2 just, just

Speaker 2 kind of like

Speaker 2 making it 100%

Speaker 2 as real and authentic as it can be.

Speaker 4 That's cool.

Speaker 2 is my first step.

Speaker 4 I know you got a wellness brand too, right? You're launching. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 I have a, it's a feminine care brand. So it's actually a traditional Chinese medicine formulated feminine care brand.
So we have wash wipes and sprays for your down south, North China.

Speaker 2 Well, for your vulva, technically. We don't, we don't have anything for douching.
Everything's for the external genitalia.

Speaker 2 And our brand is called Antivorta, which means goddess of the future in Roman mythology. My co-founder, Annie, she's Taiwanese.
She actually went into early menopause at the age of 35.

Speaker 2 So she had major vaginal dryness, which led to vaginal itching. And she tried everything like lasers, injections.
She even did acupuncture on her vagina. Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 And nothing worked until one day she had a vaginal massage using a traditional Chinese medicine cream.

Speaker 2 And so when she shared with this with me, and me, I'm a total TCM junkie. Like I grew up in Hong Kong on herbal remedies.

Speaker 2 And we really bonded over our shared love for TCM. We were always swapping practitioners, tips, this and that in Shanghai.

Speaker 2 And I told her, listen, as international Chinese women, let's take what makes us healthy and happy and share it with women around the rest of the world. So we spent two years developing the formula.

Speaker 2 We launched a year ago. We just got picked up by QVC.
Wow. Yeah, which is actually a very on-brand customer for us because it turns out, and menopause has obviously been a huge

Speaker 2 movement this year.

Speaker 2 We didn't know that three years ago, right? Nobody was doing that menopause back then. But we've kind of like ridden this menopause wave.

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 also this trend post-COVID in the States towards holistic wellness and medicine. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And people understanding that

Speaker 2 Western medicine is about covering symptoms, fixing symptoms, and Chinese medicine is about prevention.

Speaker 2 And so, yeah, we were lucky to catch this wave

Speaker 2 and very excited to bring TCM to women in New York, London, Paris. Let's go.

Speaker 4 Get some vaginal massages, ladies. Let's go.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 4 I didn't even know that was a thing.

Speaker 2 Neither did I.

Speaker 4 Did she have to go outside the country for that?

Speaker 2 No, no, Shanghai is full of them.

Speaker 4 Oh, Shanghai.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 So Shanghai, because she's, you know, she lives between Taiwan, where our factories are, and her family businesses, commercial Chinese medicine, and then in Shanghai, and I'm between LA and Shanghai.

Speaker 2 No, Shanghai is like women in Shanghai really take care of themselves.

Speaker 4 Nice.

Speaker 2 And so they're doing like everything. I mean, there's like yoni steaming.
That's like literally.

Speaker 2 super nice luxurious little spas where you go into a room and everybody has their yoni steaming do you know what yoni steaming is it's like where you steam your vagina really what does that do to herbs it just it's good for you interesting i haven't heard about yoni steaming what gwyneth paltra does it honestly gwyneth paltra was really like one of the early adopters of a lot of holistic wellness practices i want to try acupuncture have you tried that i do it twice a week holy crap yesterday and you actually noticed results yes i do it to regularly my period it helps with your period because i fly so much every time i do a long haul trip my periods delayed by a couple of days.

Speaker 2 Damn. So what I do is it's it's actually in the tailbone of my back.

Speaker 2 there are these points called the sacral points. In Chinese, they're called baliao.
And he does four needles, four needles in like a V shape.

Speaker 2 And literally, if I'm late, like my period will then come like very soon. No way.
Or if I'm spotting, sorry to get

Speaker 2 spotting is when your period's trying to come, but it's like not coming. Okay.

Speaker 2 You have an eight-year girlfriend. How do you...

Speaker 4 She's never mentioned this. Spotting? I don't think guys know what that is.

Speaker 2 Okay, it's when your peer is trying to come, but it's not coming. Okay.
And you're spotting.

Speaker 2 then I'll literally, I'll get that acupuncture done and I'll come off the acupuncture bed and my period will come. I'll be like, what? Heavy flow.
That's crazy. I had a go.
I have a girlfriend.

Speaker 2 She's in New York City, white girl, never been to China, very good friend of mine. She didn't have her period for a year in her 20s, a year.

Speaker 2 And then she went to acupuncture for something else, her back.

Speaker 2 And her acupuncture was like, oh, like, is there anything else that's bothering you? Anything else going on with your body? And she's like, oh, I haven't had my period in over a year.

Speaker 2 But in her needles, the next day got a period.

Speaker 2 no way yeah so periods could be like if they're late it's like an energy blockage thing is that the idea yeah in traditional chinese medicine a woman's health begins in her uterine health so your feminine health is in fact your period is a rapport card of your health like are you regular heavier light flow um blood clots do you have cramps all these things yeah that makes sense some people are a lot of people a lot of girls i talk to are late actually these days yeah and that's because of all sorts of things like environmental stresses, the food we're eating, stuff we're putting in our body.

Speaker 4 The actual pads, too, are like plastic and tampons. Yeah, the tampons.

Speaker 2 Finally, they've been exposed. But think about how long we were using them.
Your whole life. Yeah.
Crazy.

Speaker 4 Is there an alternative to those?

Speaker 2 Yeah, now there are. So, and I use some.
I use an Italian brand that's entirely 100% like natural organic cotton

Speaker 2 for pads.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but it's nuts. It's really nuts.
That's crazy. Yeah, i gotta try that america is seen as sort of the richest country in the world right

Speaker 2 but it so it's really shocking at the lack of safety and the lack of like surveillance of what's in the ingredients of things we're using compared to other countries oh 100 and we don't talk about parasites here

Speaker 4 yeah i know it's common in eastern cultures to do parasite cleanses but no one told me about it here until i was like 25

Speaker 4 and then i did my first cleanse i had so many parasites wait what i've never i need to do parasite cleanse.

Speaker 2 You've never done one? No.

Speaker 4 Oh, I thought it was normal in China.

Speaker 2 Really?

Speaker 2 What? So what does it tell me about it?

Speaker 4 There's different types. There's herbal remedies where you just take them, but you should first find out if you have any.

Speaker 4 So get a scan done and then see, you got to take specific herbs based off the parasite. So like I had a tapeworm, I had ringworm, all these different ones.
Everyone does.

Speaker 4 Like if you eat sushi, if you drink top water.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 Wait, and so what kind of scan do you get?

Speaker 4 There's energetic scans. I could connect you with mine.
He's actually an Eastern medicine doctor, Chris Motley. Great.
Yeah, he has this device that scans your organs, sees what you have.

Speaker 2 I would love that.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's crazy. I had a tapeworm, though, because I've always been skinny, super skinny.

Speaker 2 So, so, so, you figured out you'd had a tapeworm for like 20 years?

Speaker 4 I don't know how long it was, but yeah, some people have like 20-foot-long tapeworms in them. You got to pull it out of the throat.

Speaker 2 Wait, I thought you poop it out.

Speaker 4 I have a guy friend who if they're well, 20 feet, you can't really shit that one out, but yeah, it was 20 feet long.

Speaker 4 No, not mine, but someone I know.

Speaker 4 Yeah, tapeworms can get long because they're eating all the food you're eating. Wow.
But you definitely have some, like almost everyone does. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 Do you eat a lot of sushi and raw meat and stuff?

Speaker 2 Not a lot, but like I do enjoy the occasional. Yeah.
I mean, I try to stay away from cold and war stuff because in traditional Chinese medicine, it's not great for you.

Speaker 2 You want to eat like hot cooked foods. Yeah.

Speaker 4 hot water but hey who doesn't like the occasional sushi but even when you shower in tap water it it could get in your body that way

Speaker 4 through the air, like it's everywhere.

Speaker 2 Insane.

Speaker 4 I'll be curious what you have in the world.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 4 I'm surprised because I heard it was common in Eastern cultures to do parasite cleanses. Surprised you haven't heard about that.

Speaker 2 I'm going to go ask my co-founder.

Speaker 4 Yeah, find out what's going on there.

Speaker 4 We'll link the book below. Anything else you want to close off with?

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's been cool. Both oxes.
we got to stick together.

Speaker 2 Hello, ox.

Speaker 4 Well, check her out, guys. We'll link the Netflix show, the book, and your podcast.
Thanks for coming on.

Speaker 4 Yep, see you guys.