Why Chess Masters Dominate High Stakes Poker | Dan Smith DSH #1030

Now you could pretty regularly just like get the answer, but it used to just be

you're just guessing, you know, and like you think you have like a good strategy, but maybe there's just like a counter strategy that you didn't consider, you know?

Wow.

Yeah, because your opponent probably knows the right strategy too, so they'll kind of throw you off, right?

Yeah, no doubt.

Yeah, because they know that you know.

All right, guys, poker professional Dan Smith here today.

Thanks for coming on, man.

Thanks for having me.

It's going to be fun.

Absolutely.

Six on the all-time money list, climbing up.

Is that the highest you've ever been?

I've gotten as high as either third or fourth.

When Bryn Kenny won the big million-dollar tournament,

I got third in that tournament, and if I had won, I would have made number one.

Oh, wow.

So you were right there.

It was in the hunt, yeah.

Damn.

But like, also, that tournament was like,

it was so big that it like really just just catapults you up, you know?

Yeah, yeah, I noticed because I've looked at the list and pretty much 80% of the cashes seem to be from like a few events.

Yeah, it's like a big cash out, like a $10 million payout, right?

Something like that, yeah.

Yeah, so I don't know if that's a good way of judging skill level.

Oh, definitely not

because it just comes down to a few key tournaments, yeah.

If you have a few million-dollar tournaments over your career, sample size isn't going to be that relevant, but

something to talk about.

What's a better gauge to test skill level, you think?

I mean, if you included buy-ins in there, like, okay, this person cashed for $55 million and they were in for $35

plus $20.

And also, I think just like the eye test of seeing somebody play, how are they handling situations?

Like, if you talk to somebody about poker, in some cases, you could just tell right away they know what they're talking about.

Wow, you could tell just from talking to them?

A bit.

Or like if you see someone play a hand, certain mistakes are obvious enough that it's like pretty indicative that the person's not going to be like a star.

That makes sense.

Yeah, it d it never shows the buy-ins.

That's a good point.

Because they could have bought in a few times.

Yeah.

They could have even lost money.

And you wouldn't know.

For sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

it happens.

Like, the buy-ins are big.

Like, people, I probably played like

five-ish million of buy-ins last year, you know.

Wow.

Maybe more.

It's pretty wild.

Yeah, I saw on your Twitter.

So last year you won 700K.

And I think as of last month, you tweeted you're down 700K.

I don't know if it's still

at the WSOP.

At the WSOP.

Yeah.

And like also a $250,000 entry fee.

like a 700k swing almost doesn't mean all that much you know like a two hundred fifty k tournament

right it's gonna swing a lot yeah i guess it's all relative for someone like you playing high stakes that 700k is not that much yeah and also for s for the big tournaments plenty of professionals like take on investors or piece themselves out that sort of thing got it is that something you do or do you fund your your entire bankroll yourself um i take investors for the big tournaments um

i I think if you're like with the tax implications as an American, you kind of have to.

Otherwise having a losing year, like it would be such a big negative tax free roll.

Right, because you could only write off 6K, right?

You could write off losses against winnings,

but only over the course of a year.

So if you lose a million one year, you win a million the next year, you're break even, but you owe the government 400.

Holy crap.

I didn't know that.

Yeah, it's rough.

Wow.

So there's probably a lot of poker players that get wrecked because of that.

They don't know that when they're starting out.

Yeah, sure.

Is that something you ought to learn along the way?

I mean, it was like a factor, but

like, it also, like, in the early parts of my career,

you're not playing for super high stakes back then, you know, when you're playing smaller.

Like, you just kind of learn along the way.

Right.

Were your stakes early on, like, was it gradual increase or were you kind of just one day you just decided to play really high stakes?

Um, I started when I was like 13 years old.

I got a $25 transfer onto this poker site, and I started buying like $5 games, you know?

So I started low and then built my way up from there.

Okay.

So humble beginnings.

Wow.

13.

That is an early start.

I was a chess player when I was really young.

Yeah, I want to talk about that because I'm a chess player.

Ooh.

Not as good as you.

I looked up your Elo.

You hit 2,000, right?

I got up to 2,170 and 2,200 is master.

Wow.

That's always been a goal.

Still never quite got there.

Do you want to potentially revisit that in the future?

I think so, yeah.

They say with chess, it's taller as yielder.

Yeah.

I mean, definitely that.

the case.

There are also,

I think, like the things about getting cover, like you,

you also, if you just work really hard at it, like, okay, you're a professional basketball player, your skills are going down in your late 30s, let's say.

If you're just some guys playing really casually, you just still definitely be getting better into your 40s, you know?

Yeah, I feel the same about most things.

I feel that, yeah, with all the advancements in health and technology, you see Ron playing at 40 now.

Yeah.

And like, okay, maybe he's starting to decline, but like in a local league, you can just definitely keep getting better.

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah, I've been at 1350 for eight months.

I've been stuck, man.

Yeah, that's the thing with chess.

You just plateau and it's just like you stop getting it's frustrating.

It's so hard to get better at chess once you're at a certain level.

Yeah.

Like, how long were you stuck at 2000?

Maybe like a um

two years.

Wow.

And then I kind of hung it up.

You got sick of it.

It just stopped being fun for me.

I realized I was like playing because I was good at it, not because I enjoyed it.

And I saw that, like, for me to make the next jump, like, I maybe I could have been like a 2400 player in the US, you know, but like there's no future in that, you know?

Uh, I just saw it would have been a ton of work.

I didn't think the path was there.

Right.

Yeah, the money's tough in chess.

Really, really tough.

Yeah.

Like, you're probably not making much at a 2170.

Basically zero.

I think to support yourself, you need to be like top 10, top 20 in the world.

Wow.

So it's like tennis.

Yeah.

And

yeah, it's rough.

And that's the thing with poker.

You don't have to be top 10 to make a living.

No, I mean, if you're just better than the people you're playing against regularly,

you'll win your fair share.

So that's why you switched.

Were you playing poker while you were playing chess simultaneously or did that?

There was plenty of overlap, yeah.

There was plenty of overlap.

yeah interesting i see a lot of chess players now getting into poker have you seen that

yes i feel like there's always been like a good relationship between the two games like mutual respect for

a lot of similarities in the mindset you think

some and i also just think if you people play one game competitively like you kind of get it you know yeah

um and also i think a lot of chess players see people making money at poker and like want to give it a whirl

yeah i see that the luck factor is a rough thing to deal with, though.

In poker, right?

Yeah, because in chess, there's

none.

Yeah, the only luck, I guess, would be if your opponent is off or something.

I mean, if two people are very similar in skill, who wins on a given day is going to come down to like various factors, you know?

So there, like, is a luck factor.

Like, if you're

you play 10 games, one is supposed to get five and a half out of ten.

Any given game, anything that happens, like that is a variance or luck.

Yeah.

But like between two people who are difference in skill, like the guy just never wins.

Yeah, 100%.

You're not going to lose some random guy in chess ever.

Yeah.

Have you been following the chess, like the pros still?

Yeah, I enjoy it.

I enjoy it too.

Who's your?

I was going to ask you that.

I like, you're not going to like this answer.

I like Hans and Nieman.

It's

entertaining, and he does have an interesting style.

I think he's just kind of like pretty mean a lot.

He's got a chip on his shoulder because of what happened.

But I like the underdog story.

That's why I like him.

And he's American.

I could, I mean, it's also, it is interesting.

I got a lot of people into it.

It did, yeah.

Who's your guy, Magnus?

Magnus is just so unbelievably filthy, you know, like

it's just like completely, and like, I can't imagine it.

Like, he'll just have these positions where it just looks like it's completely even and it's like, why are you even like continuing to play this on?

And then he just grinds the guy down and he just does it over and over again.

And like,

I just can't understand how he's just that good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

His endgame is insane.

So many positions will be tied and he'll come out on top somehow.

And

yeah, like I literally don't know how he does it.

It's nuts.

And he drinks.

He does other stuff.

He's not just all about chess because a lot of these chess guys are just chess 24-7.

Yeah.

But he actually plays poker on the side.

He drinks and has fun.

I think he clearly values living his life.

And he's like, oh, yeah, the World Championship Series isn't fun for me.

I'm off it.

Yeah.

Yeah, he backed out.

I mean, those classical games are brutal on you mentally.

Was that your format?

Did you play a lot of classical?

If you play in serious tournaments, that's what it comes down to.

And I would do a lot of it.

I played a tournament a couple of years ago here in Vegas in December when I was kind of rusty.

And I just remember thinking how insane it is that, like, I was doing that at nine years old, you know?

I was just like, I'm like, this is just not appropriate for children.

Wow.

So you had really good mental fortitude at a very young age, which is impressive because kids these days are just bouncing off the walls.

I mean, probably plenty are, but also like, there are a lot of kids these days who are just sick at chess, too.

That's true, too.

Yeah, you got both ends.

You got the TikTok brain, but then you got the people that have access to the information at such a young age because of social media and they're actually using it.

Yeah.

So yeah, you got both ends of the stick.

And you see that with the Olympics.

We win every year, but we're also one of the unhealthiest countries.

But we got really good athletes on the other end of it.

Yeah.

It's interesting, right?

It is really

interesting, like unusual times to be alive.

Where does the U.S.

rank in terms of poker professionals?

Are we still the best country?

i would be inclined to think so like

it's a challenging thing to say but

yeah i would say the u.s is probably the strongest if there's a lot of variants of poker too like texas hold'em you can play the mixed games omaha um

so i generally think about texas hold'em

Same, yeah.

I was mainly asking about that because that's the biggest one.

Yeah,

I would say the Americans are probably the best.

Okay.

Because I see some big games out there in Asia.

There are some big games out there in Asia.

Those aren't usually open to everyone, you know.

The Triton games you're talking about?

Triton, they have tournaments that are open to everyone, and that's the format I love about poker, you know?

Like 2 p.m.

start, everyone with the money could show up.

Great.

And then sometimes they have cash games.

And those are like

invitation only.

They try to like make it such that the games aren't too tough.

That sort of thing.

What do you think of this new era of these games being streamed on YouTube and social media?

I think they are making some good content.

For me, some of like

those really big poker games are more kind of like reality TV than like poker, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

I personally don't care to watch like a bunch of of people like just because like hey they have three hundred thousand dollars in front of them if none of them really know how to play or they're like they're intentionally playing bad for me i don't care to watch it but like

if it's reality tv for some people and like they enjoy it cool just for me personally

uh

doesn't do it i could see that yeah i asked that because i've i've actually never seen you play in those so i wondered why you didn't uh like those live stream games.

I've played sometimes.

Generally, it's kind of political.

And

I mean, if you're running a poker game and you're having everyone buy in for $200,000 and you can be playing against me, who's very good, or this other person who's drinking and not very good,

you're going to make a lot more money with that other person in the table.

So they don't, yeah, you're a shark at that table.

Yeah.

That's probably why they're not inviting you as much as you used to get invited.

I get to play in those sort of games like a couple of times a year.

And I enjoy it when I do.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah, because you're just a fan of the game.

So you want to see high-quality poker being played.

Yeah, if you're going to...

If I was going to go the other route,

I would just rather full-on watch an episode of Jersey's Shore than

that, you know?

I would say in a way it's good, though, overall because it's bringing a lot of new players.

Would you agree with that?

i think poker is doing quite well and i think the streams are a huge part of it i'm actually not super knowledgeable about like the modern content era but it does seem like

youtube poker stuff is like huge it's crushing it there's guys pulling up to the casinos in vegas with cameras you've probably played at some of these tables and they're just filming every hand and some people get annoyed but It is interesting.

Yeah, I think there's like a way to do it that's like

respectful and doesn't slow down the game.

Um, and then also there are just some

security concerns like

if a phone is like like

if you're playing really big money poker, there are going to be people who are trying to like con you and it's just like, okay, maybe like a new thing is like if a camera could like see the cards off the deck, you know?

Yeah, you never know.

People have sneaky ways of cheating these days, right?

Yeah.

I mean, has that happened to you where you were at a game and you felt like you got cheated or slighted?

I don't think so, but it's something that you have to like be on the lookout for.

Well, that's impressive because you played a lot of poker and I felt like that was a more common issue.

In some, I mean, to some degrees, it probably does happen.

If someone's going to be doing it and they're going to be good at it, it might be hard to catch.

Yeah.

But for the most part, like the people that I play with, I know and trust.

Like, I go to these Triton tournaments and I feel like really secure in the game security.

Well, I

saw one clip of you with, I think, Martin Cabrel.

Was that in the World Series?

That was the WSOP 250k.

Yeah, and he was like staring at the back of the card and it was all.

And I mean, it wasn't just that.

It was that, like, I don't know if you saw this.

He was like doing this thing, like, putting his nail into the card.

Oh, really?

That kind of blew up in a sloppy way.

I had some choice comments for him.

If I could go back in time, I would just have said something more along the lines of like, if you are doing something like this into the card, whether you're marking it or you're not, that's against the rules and you don't get to play.

You know?

Like, do you understand about card marking?

No, I didn't know that was a rule, actually.

So the reason that like cards work is when you see like the back of the cards, they all look the same, you know?

If you put marks into some of them, you could be like, oh, that has a fingernail in the corner.

Got it.

Maybe that is the ace of diamonds, you know?

So he was like doing a thing that looked like it, and

people said he wasn't marking him after the fact, but it sure looked like it, you know.

Got it.

But aren't they only using the cards once in the World Series?

No, they use those cards, especially on TV, they use RFID cards,

which are more expensive.

They use the cards a bunch.

Oh, got it.

And also, like, at some venues, it is a thing that come up.

Like, you're asking for new decks kind of regularly, and they're like, ooh, each deck is like $20.

But, like, sure, but it's a quarter million dollar tournament.

Yeah, I saw some crazy stat where they used like so many cards at that tournament.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

Yeah, I think he's an interesting player.

I feel like he does it on purpose, just to get in people's heads.

I think it is definitely trying to unsettle people.

Yeah, I think that's part of his strategy because he's done it so many times, so many different games.

So at this point, it's not a coincidence.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

It's been a thing that's been happening for many years.

Yeah, because when you are angry, you play different, right?

They call it tilting.

Yeah.

Some people

handle

emotions

differently.

But yeah.

You can be frustrated or unsettled or like in the back of your mind, if you're asking yourself, like, is this game on the up and and up?

Right.

Your question is, like, then it's harder to play.

Did you feel like he affected your play by doing that and you got angry?

I think I was able to

maintain my composure and play really well.

I think I kept it together well.

And like,

I was able to use

I think I was able to use those emotions to be like, I'm going to really lock in.

There are certain things when you play poker.

Like, you know how there's a timer?

Yeah.

If you're being like really diligent, like the best thing to do is probably to act at 28 seconds every time so you don't have any timing tells.

And in some situations, like you're like, I already know what I'm going to do.

I'm just going to act.

Okay, it's like, you know what?

I don't like the way this Martin guy is acting.

Every time I'm playing against him, I'm going to try to do everything perfectly.

You know, I'm not going to give him an inch.

Interesting.

So I think I was able to use it to

lock in.

The game within the game.

Yeah.

That's why I love poker because there's another game of it that people don't see or think about.

There are a lot of mind games.

And even if things get like more technical and computer-y,

playing the player and just like, I'm here, you're there, this guy just bet all of his money.

Does he have it or not?

That's still a huge part of the game.

Interesting.

When the computer started becoming everywhere, is that something you embraced right away or did it take some time?

I was a little resistant to it.

And kind of ironically,

it was kind of what part of what led me away from chess many years ago when you started having to use the computer.

It just became less fun, more technical.

Yeah.

And then I saw that happening, happening with poker.

Deja vu, right?

It makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah, with chess, it was a big deal, right?

It kind of of ruined the fun for a lot of people.

Yeah,

it requires a lot of, like, it's a different kind of work.

And, like,

you could be very, very well prepared now, which is a huge advantage.

Right.

Yeah, because I watched the old chess games on YouTube, like Bobby Fisher and Andrew Tate's dad, and they were all over the place.

It was really fun to watch.

But because they didn't have these engines telling them this was the best move.

It's just a complete game changer.

And that's how poker was back in the day, too, right?

Yeah.

Like you used to be figuring stuff out, coming up with some of your own strategies.

Now you could pretty regularly just like get the answer, but it used to just be

you're just guessing, you know, and like you think you have like a good strategy, but maybe there's just like a counter strategy that you didn't consider, you know?

Wow.

Yeah, because your opponent probably knows the right strategy too, so they'll kind of throw you off, right?

Yeah, no doubt.

Yeah, because they know that you know.

That's so funny, man.

Yeah, because everyone in the high stakes has the computers pretty much.

They're using them, right?

I would say basically all of like the, if you're a very serious player, you're studying with it to some degree.

And that's

even some of the amateurs, too.

Really, wow.

That's why I was surprised when Bryn Kenning came on.

He said he doesn't use it at all, and he's still getting pretty good results.

Bryn's one of a kind.

Right, but that's not a common thing.

It is a very much not a common thing, yeah.

Yeah.

And Helmuth is another one, too, but he's not playing the high-stakes events.

He doesn't really, yeah, he does, I would say, like the biggest tournaments are where like

the most serious competition goes down, and he hasn't ever really been one to participate in those.

What's the biggest buy-in you've played in?

I have played in either three or four $1 million tournaments.

Holy crap.

I've had, and I've happened to have have great results there.

Three times in a row, I got third place.

Damn.

It's impressive, man.

Well done.

It is impressive.

Also, super fortunate.

But yeah, it's a fun streak.

What percentage of that was lucky then?

Because you say fortunate.

On any given day, if you play a tournament, like say there's...

50 players.

If you're the best player in the field, maybe you'll win like one out of 35 times type of thing.

Most of the time, you just don't win, you know?

So 3% chance if you're the best player in the field to win a 50-person tournament.

Yeah.

And like.

That's crazy.

So anytime you win, it is just hugely fortunate.

Like, luck is like the biggest factor, but like, you can give yourself better chances to get lucky.

Right.

Because there's a lot of players that will make the final table.

So that to me is a lot of skill, right?

Because if you're constantly making the final table, that's not just luck.

Over a big enough sample size, like I've started playing the very big tournaments in 2012.

The fact that I'm still around doing it is like, okay, now like the results are starting to be indicative.

But even like you can just have a great year and maybe not be that skilled of a player, you know?

Yeah, if you just play against people worse than you right or no you play against good people and you just happen to get lucky you know right like you could be an underdog in a tournament and still win yeah you've probably seen that all the time does that annoy you when you see someone worse than you winning um

no i mean it's just kind of

it's why you get to play poker for for big money compared to like chess you know right so you just got to embrace it yeah at the end of the day it'll never be all skill there's going to be luck involved and that's why it's a great game to gamble on relative to, say, like chess or tennis.

You know, when you just, if you just know one side's going to win, you're not going to play for money.

Right.

That's true.

That's really cool.

Are you playing anything online or are you all in person these days?

I play very

small amounts online.

I actually messed around last night on WSOP.com and I got second in the $500 Mystery Bounty event.

Oh, nice.

Yeah.

So I missed around in those events a little bit.

But other than that, I don't play much online.

Yeah.

That's a small buy-in for you, 500.

It was mostly like, yeah, it's a little something to do, you know.

But yeah, it's on the small side.

A little bit is I'm going to try in Monte Carlo in like 10 days.

And I did want to just get some reps and see some cards, like get the rust off.

And mostly, it's just like, yeah, it's a fun thing to do.

Right.

You say Ross, so you haven't been playing for a little little bit?

The WSOP,

um,

I played through like early July, and then it was a couple months playing very little.

A few, and then

there were some tournaments at the ARIA a couple weeks ago.

Got it.

Um,

generally, it's like I'll have like two weeks.

Like, when I go to Triton, I'll play every day, and then you get like a few weeks or a month off.

Got it.

Yeah, because you probably get burnt out, right?

Playing Playing two weeks straight.

Yeah.

And also, if you're playing like these tournaments, like at Triton, basically every day if you win the tournaments a million dollars,

you come back to Vegas and like maybe the tournament that'll be going on will be like a 1K or a 2K.

Like it doesn't really like

excite you anymore.

Yeah.

Why do you think all the big tournaments are overseas, not in the U.S.?

Some of it is about like laws about getting the money in there and also just like

the companies that run it are

like triton

uh based in asia you know yeah that makes sense i never even thought about the laws but yeah that's that's a lot of money so anti-maundering anti-laundering lawyer and if you have like a million dollar tournament in london you have to go through like the london bangs like it it's much it's more of a hassle than if like you say you're in monte carlo or the rules are a lot like smoother right yeah imagine wiring the money and they put it on hold and you're freaking out.

Yeah.

Damn.

Yeah, the money laundering thing.

There was a casino like a week ago.

It might have been Resorts World or something, but they just got a huge fine because they were allowing people to gamble like high limits.

Yeah, that seems to

have been happening a lot over the years.

Yeah, that makes sense because they're, who knows where they got that money, but yeah.

That's a whole nother podcast.

I want to talk about the health side of things.

You bought a $10,000 cold plunge?

Yes.

That's awesome.

What brand was that?

I got the Plunge One.

Plunge One.

Plunge.com?

Yeah.

I've been looking into that one.

I would not get that one.

Really?

If you spend that kind of money on a cold plunge,

the support aspect should be really good.

And when I've had issues, it's just been a complete disaster.

Wow.

Good to know.

Now that it's working a bit better, I'm happy with it.

But if I can go back in time, I would have gotten a different product.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Some of them are really expensive, and I don't know what the main difference is.

I think they're pretty similar.

And

I also think you could probably get a great one for

5K instead of going up to the 13K ones.

But generally, as a thing, like I absolutely love them, just maybe not the one, not the one I have, but yeah, that's probably what I'll do.

I just got a 5k infrared sauna, so I want to do some hot cold therapy.

It's the best.

I can't wait.

I also have a sauna, and it's just like

basically every night before I go to bed, and it makes me feel wonderful.

Yeah, are you big into the biohacking health stuff?

Um,

I try to take good care of myself.

Uh,

some of the, like, I'm not not super crazy about it, but I try to be very active.

I try to generally eat reasonably, you know, and like the things that I enjoy doing, I just do them every day.

I feel like any little edge at your level is worth it.

Totally.

And also, just walking around feeling good

is great.

Yeah, because the diet, I mean, there's probably players that eat like shit.

They don't even realize it's affecting the way they think when they're playing poker.

Yeah.

Like, it could really get to your brain.

Yeah, I feel that.

Like you see Negranu, who's vegetarian.

It's interesting.

Yeah.

I mean, I think there's a lot of different ways to eat in a way that you'll feel good.

But I think just knowing your body and what works for you, you know?

Yeah.

Some people eat carbs and like get sleepy.

And other people, I think, can function well on it.

Absolutely.

I cannot.

Honestly, I can't either.

I have the gene break for it.

Have you done a gene test?

I haven't.

Look into those.

It's really important information.

I'll give it a whirl.

Yeah.

Shout out to Gary Breco.

That changed my life.

I found out I had this.

It's called the motherfucker gene, but yeah, MTHFR.

Basically, half the population has this and they don't even know.

You can't eat pretty much all bread in the U.S.

or grains.

Which is a lot of different food in the U.S.

So

yeah.

It's not something I'm super informed about, but like

I'd believe it.

Yeah.

All right.

This was an interesting take you had.

I'm big on food, and I saw you post your favorite restaurants in Vegas.

You posted Ramen Boys is the best ramen in Vegas.

Yeah.

But not just Vegas, in the U.S., you said.

That I've had.

I absolutely loved it.

I've been to Japan like five times, and like ramen was the thing that really stood out.

Have you had ramen boys?

I haven't.

It's unbelievable.

Yeah.

Okay.

I'll go there tonight.

I'll text you how I like it.

I appreciate that.

And then your best pizza spot.

I've never even heard of this spot.

Double Zero Pizza.

Yeah.

Growing up in New Jersey, I like pizza, East Coast thing.

And the stereotype is it's hard to get good pizza on the West Coast.

But I think that place is real good.

Interesting.

And like fun vibes, too.

Okay.

Where is that spot?

Is that also Chinatown?

I want to say it's on Spring mountain okay i love chinatown yeah i'm there at least once a week i feel like that's like the best food in vegas for sure i agree yeah it's slept on because the strip you're paying triple the price for the same thing yeah some vegas people are like totally anti strip um i think it's worth doing sometimes you know like okay you're paying up for a bit but like also Some of the stuff is just cool, good vibes.

I agree.

Yeah, I'll go there for an experience

knowing I'm going to pay double or triple, but it's fun.

Night out with friends.

Yeah, I feel that.

A lot of locals don't even go to the strip.

I've heard that a lot.

Yeah.

But it's kind of like whatever.

Like, if I want to go to the sphere and spend 200 bucks on dinner and have a fun night, let's do it.

It's a special thing that you get to do sometimes.

Have you seen any shows at the sphere?

Not yet.

Have you?

I saw the Eagles this weekend.

Nice.

As a musical venue, the sphere is just unbelievable.

And like, it was a great show that they're older, but like they can still play.

Yeah, I noticed all their musical acts are the older bands, so I can't really relate.

Yeah, I think at some point they're gonna get like more modern bands that, and it'll be something that's cool, but I would recommend seeing something there.

Yeah, I might see that nature show there.

I wanted to see the UFC, but

it was sick.

You went to that too?

Yeah, wow, I saw the videos, it looked nuts.

I was very skeptical.

Like, I thought it wasn't going to look good.

And then I get there and was like, oh, this is spectacular.

Wow.

That's cool.

Do you go to a lot of shows in Vegas?

Whenever there's someone that I'm excited about seeing, I love seeing live music.

When there's someone I'm excited about, I'll make a point to do it.

That's one of the best parts about Vegas.

For sure.

Every week there's something.

Yeah.

Something major.

Now we're getting NBA, apparently, MLB.

I'm excited about my real estate out here.

Vegas has been doing some cool stuff for the last several years.

Yeah.

You've been here a while.

I moved out here when I was 20 and then I keep leaving and coming back.

Crazy.

You ever think about retiring?

Poker?

I definitely

have given it some thought.

At this point, I still really enjoy competing in the big tournaments.

Like I'm going to Monaco for two weeks.

I can't think of something that I would be doing that would be

more enjoyable.

Wow.

Or maybe not like enjoyment, like it's hard competition, but I think it's like a great part of my life and I enjoy it.

And

I would need a compelling reason to give it up, you know?

That's cool.

That's really cool.

Yeah, it sounds like you're fulfilled.

I really, it's, yeah, it's just a...

I play,

there are some of the guys who play in these tournaments.

They're billionaires with all the resources in the world.

They can do whatever they want for enjoyment.

They're playing these tournaments, you know?

Like, I think it's a compelling case that

it's fun and exciting.

Yeah, poker is great.

It brings people together, right?

Yeah.

Sit out at a table, meet new friends.

How do you treat the friendship versus competition aspect of it?

Do you find yourself playing differently against your friends?

Definitely not.

Oh, you're not.

Once you're there, you have to be locked in.

people are good enough that if you're not playing your best, you'll get run over.

They're no friends at the poker table.

Yeah, you're Michael Jordan out here.

I love it.

I love that, dude.

Because a lot of sports these days, well, I see this about basketball, especially.

They're all friends with each other.

Like, they played travel growing up and everything.

So it's like a different game.

It's not as physical, you know?

Hmm.

Yeah, I suppose if you've grown up with somebody, maybe you'll be a little less inclined to throw an elbow.

Yeah, but you've got that switch that you could kind of turn off that friendship.

I think it's just a matter of like

you got

each hand, you kind of have to play your cards the way they need to be played, you know?

Yeah.

Regardless of who you're playing against.

Any rivalries you have?

People that you have gone up against a lot?

Probably like Cabrel is like the

most heated one over the years.

But other than, like, I mean, there's been plenty of people that I've been competing with.

Like, like I was saying, I started playing the big tournaments in 2012.

There are some people that, like, you've been playing that I've been competing with at that level basically since.

What percentage of those guys are still around that you played with in 2012, you think?

Maybe like

10%.

That's it.

Wow.

People generally only are at the top for a few years.

And in some cases, it's like, okay, people do retire.

Either they're not winning anymore.

Or it's like, okay, time to have a family or move on to something else.

Wow.

10%.

That's a lot lower than I thought it'd be.

Just an off the cuff, maybe.

But like, of people who were playing

all of the big tournaments back then i would guess that there were like

around 10 who still compete at the highest level you know wow yeah you don't see the guys we used to watch on tv you don't see many of them around i was talking to negranu about this when he came on there's not many yeah and like the people that grew up on tv i would say like they were even like a couple generations ago you know right

like the mike matasow types i don't even know what that is okay um i might have been too young for that one.

Like classic, did you like watch WSOP on like the Moneymaker stuff?

I was like in middle school, but yeah, I caught like, that was the first time I saw poker.

The Moneymaker.

Yeah, that's, I saw that on TV and got into it, too.

Yeah.

He was a big name at that time, you know?

Right.

He's still playing, actually.

Saw him in the World Series.

Moneymaker?

Yeah.

Yeah, he had a pretty good year either like last year or the year before.

Yeah, that was impressive.

Moneymaker, man.

So that's why you got into poker.

That's crazy.

See it on TV.

You were 13, you said, right?

Yeah.

Chess I was like

kind of struggling with.

I was plateauing.

I couldn't make the master title.

And

I saw poker on TV and it's just like they are playing so much less seriously, you know?

Yeah.

Like even like a low-level chess tournament, people are locked and trying their hardest.

Yeah.

I'm like, yo, they're playing for a huge prize.

And like, no one's even trying.

Yeah.

It's weird.

I love that.

Yeah.

I only play five-minute chess because I just, I don't have the patience for classical, man.

There's a big thing in between.

Like,

at five minutes, I would say,

like,

by the end of the game, you're always just super rushing, you know?

And I think it is nice to sometimes play games where you can actually play out at the end.

Fair, yeah.

But on the other, then you're spending 30 minutes on a game of chess rather than 10.

Right.

Yeah, five to ten is that's it's a huge jump.

It is.

Yeah, you don't have time in five minutes to think.

Some people play one minute.

Yeah.

I dabble with it.

Oh, yeah.

What's your rating in one minute?

2,400.

Holy crap.

Oh, so you are a master in one minute.

Online ratings are inflated.

Like the master title I view for like only over-the-board.

And

like the online to

over-the-board ratings.

Yeah.

There's like a

conversion thing there, you know?

What causes that?

More players, I think.

So there's probably some inflation and just different rating systems.

Like, I don't exactly know the math behind it, but

like I know the highest players in online chess are over 3,000 compared to like Fide A, the number one rating is like 2,850.

So it's generally like you add, you subtract, generally subtract a couple hundred points from from your online rating to get your in-person rating.

Damn, that's humbling for me because I've been telling everyone I'm a 1350, but I'm probably like an 1150, 1200.

Hard to say.

Like I just, but maybe.

No, but you're right because I've seen it all the time.

When I played in Times Square, New York, I got wrecked.

Those guys are tough.

Those guys are good.

Have you ever played out there?

Yeah.

I would generally play at Washington Square Park.

Nice.

But yeah, it's kind of like a New York tradition.

Yeah, I knew I was screwed when he didn't even tell me his rating.

He wouldn't tell me.

I was like, all right, this guy's driving really good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, that's a bucket list item to play out there.

It was a fun time.

Absolutely.

I love going to New York.

Yeah.

Shout out to New York.

Growing up in Jersey, I actually didn't like it growing up.

I didn't have money to enjoy it.

Being able to spend some money makes a huge difference.

Massive.

Yeah.

Well, man, what's next for you?

And I know you got some tournaments coming up.

What else?

So I run this charity called Double Up Drive.

We are in the processes of starting our big annual drive.

I believe it's our 10th year.

We've raised $27 million for good causes.

Our drive is going to go live this year, I believe, December 3rd.

So we're in the phase of like pulling money together, getting like the back end stuff ready to go.

Is it in Vegas?

It's mostly online.

The general premise is if I pick out 10 or rather, we pick out 10 organizations.

If you,

say, wanted to

support

mental health, you could pick out the Strong Minds charity.

Any money that you donate, our team will double.

The year 100 becomes 200.

So it's both like an an efficient way to get involved, and you could trust that we've done a good job with the vetting process.

So, like, all of the organizations involved are reputable and doing good things with the money.

I love that.

I'll link it below, and I'll donate some money too.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

Sure.

Thanks for coming on, Dan.

That was fun.

It was wonderful.

Yup.

Thanks for watching, guys.

Check out the link below.

See you next time.