The Ugly Truth About Most Visionaries: Why They Fail | Aaron Hovivian DSH #622

happens a lot of times I think with visionaries is indirectly they try and blame that on other people.

Oh, they just can't keep up.

Oh, they just don't run as hard as I do.

Oh, whatever it is, but it's like, no, no, bro, it's that you don't lead a team super well.

And what your people need is the more people that you grow, they need consistency and they need a framework and they need something that's going to last because the only way that you can build is if you set a good foundation.

And if you don't set a good foundation, then you don't grow very far.

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All right, guys, you got the CEO of the collab team, Aaron Hovivian, here today.

Thanks for coming on, man.

Heard great things.

Hey, thanks, man.

So honored to be on.

You've got such amazing guests.

Reading through your list, I'm like, man, I get to be added to that list.

It's an honor.

Thanks for having me on.

Heard good things about you in the scaling space.

So you basically help companies scale, right?

Yeah, usually that's where I come in is when entrepreneurs are on that climb and they're starting to realize things are starting to rattle and the things, all their systems that got them to where they're at are not going to keep lasting.

Platforms and people, tech, time, and all those different pieces is what I work on.

Right.

So what type of systems do you need to build in order to scale from maybe seven to eight figures?

Yeah, so I would say the thing that I always think about is, and this is the thing that I think that most people don't work on and don't think through is the things that got them their initial success is probably not going to be the thing that scales them up.

And you and i were talking you're like hey what do you want to talk about today where are you going to go with it today and and i was thinking i think the biggest achieve is solo is solopreneur muscle memory right is like all they were they pivoted so much they were scrappy you know they figured out the game and they started to make the climb and then they try and take all that energy into a team and they just start burning out people you know i mean they so usually it's their biggest followers you know it's their raving fans that they it's their aunt and their uncle and their brother and their sister and their best friend and they pull them all in and they make this team that's kind of a whatever it takes team and they start to make the growth And then, um, because they're so scrappy and because they make so many pivots and jukes, they just start burning out their people, and then things start to crumble, you know.

And I think that that's the thing that people always underestimate: is, hey, the things that made you awesome to this point, you need to grow as a leader, too.

You know, you can't just like throw that onto a team and say, all those pivots, I'm going to shift from first to fifth to third.

I'm all over the gears.

Right.

Because what you do is you burn out your people and then it slows down your growth.

And what happens a lot of times, I think, with visionaries is indirectly they try and blame that on other people.

Oh, they just can't keep up.

Oh, they just don't run as hard as I do.

Oh, whatever it is.

But it's like, no, no, bro.

It's that you don't lead a team super well.

And what your people need is the more people that you grow, they need consistency and they need a framework and they need something that's going to last because the only way that you can build is if you set a good foundation.

And if you don't set a good foundation, then you don't grow very far.

Or if you do, it topples so hard.

And that's why you see Flash in the Pan, like the guy shot up.

And then a couple of years later, you're like, hey, whatever happened to that guy.

It happens all the time.

All the time.

See it every day.

And I feel like the solopreneur thing is so relatable.

Even for me, for five years, I just wanted to be my own boss the whole time.

Every time I hired someone, it wouldn't work out because it's so easy to just get, you know, solo tasks done and start micromanaging other hires.

So, and I think the thing that we talk about all the time.

So I got a podcast too.

It's called Ops Experts Club.

But the thing that we talk about with operators all the time that are under the hoods for these big guys that do amazing stuff, we've got to work with some rad names, you know, like Pete Vargas and Pedro Adeo and Pace Morby and John Akuff and Dr.

Darius Daniels, all these amazing entrepreneurs in the space.

So you get to get underneath one of those hoods, each one of those hoods, and you start working with these operators.

And so we'll bring them into the show and we'll talk to them about tools and things that work and real-time data.

But I think that in talking to all those people, what you see is there are good entrepreneurs out there that realize as I step into this space, there are lanes that I'm really good at.

Right.

And then I need to be aware of I was probably running in some other lanes that I don't have to run in anymore.

And I just need to hand those off and trust that that person's going to do it.

And if they don't, you're going to see the breakdown over time and then you replace them.

But the worst thing you can do is to keep like pull it back in, pull it back in, pull it back in because you're probably mediocre at that at best.

And that person's probably better at it than you.

They just need a little bit of time and give them some chops and give them some opportunity.

So I think that a lot of it is just sunlight and water, right?

Like you give them some time to grow.

That's crucial.

Yeah.

Some of those names you mentioned are doing nine figures a year, right?

That's right.

So to scale from seven to nine, you need team.

Steve Harwood, you know, his name came up when we were talking.

Steve is a good friend and was a client all through 2022.

Our retainers, usually that we do with people, are like six months to 12 months because my whole jam is I want to get in and help you build your team and then help you set up your team and get out.

Like, I don't want you dependent on me forever.

My model is, hey, let me pick up a shovel, get in the hole with you, help dig you out of this thing, set you up so that you're good and begin to exit and empower your people so that they're standing up straight.

And Steve was a great example of just Prime Corporate Services, what a powerhouse they are.

Everybody knows Steve.

Steve's one of the most networked guys I know.

For real.

Kind as the day is long, like generous as the day day is long.

But I think that in his size of a company, he's like, hey, I just need somebody from the outside to come in and kind of audit my systems and work with my people and help establish systems that can help us continue to scale and to grow.

And he's got an incredible team.

Darren is operator, you know, his COO.

What a quality dude, you know?

And I think he and I are still friends.

We still talk.

You just had baby girls.

You know, you just had twins.

But anyway, it's cool to get under the belly of something and you're like, this is a great entrepreneur, but he can only be so great without team.

Right.

Because the team is what's going to

enable Steve to continue networking.

Is let's take over all this other stuff that Steve doesn't need to be doing anymore.

And I think that's that's the art that I love to be in the middle of is working with team and building teams.

Yeah, because his strength is the networking, getting new clients,

and that's what he should be doing all day rather than customer service and all the operations and all that other stuff.

Yeah, so we helped him find his EA.

So

he didn't have an EA before we got there.

And we're like, Steve, like number first thing, bro.

Like, let's get you somebody quality.

So we found his EA who's Eliza and it's just a little badass.

Like, she's just a warrior of a lady who is just a small little thing, but she is, she wields a power, you know, and that way she can kind of control some of the logistics pieces.

And Steve can literally just lean into talking with people, connecting pieces of such a connector, you know, connect this person with this person, connect this person with this person.

And he's always somewhere.

But I think a lot of it is identifying, okay, so if that's Steve's superpower, right?

We use EOS a lot, Entrepreneur's Operating System from

Gino Wickman's book, Traction.

And one of their tools that they have in that is Delegate and Elevate.

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So how do we elevate Steve up?

And that's by delegating down all the things that Steve does not need to be doing.

So, you know, they've got this great tool where they're like, what are you great at and you love?

What are you good at and you like?

What are you good at, but you don't like?

You know, there's always that quadrant for all of us, you know, where it's like, we're good at that, but we don't really love doing it.

It's kind of like that, you limp it along.

And then what's the thing that you're just not good at and you don't like?

How can we get that off your plate the fastest?

And then how can we tool down all the rest of it to get you to your spot where your highest genius is, this is where you want to live?

I love it and I'm great at it.

And for Steve, he's a great example of he's awesome at networking.

How can we take everything else off his plate and only keep him in the rooms that he needs to be in?

And literally keep him out of all the rooms that we don't want him in because he's going to meddle.

He's going to get in the middle of things and he's probably not going to make it better by meddling with it.

And so for Steve, I've seen so so much growth in him as a leader of, I'm not going to try and get in the middle of all this stuff.

You know, he's got Tommy doing sales and he's got Darren doing ops and he's, you know, he's raised up all these different leaders that are awesome, amazing dudes.

I love that.

But a lot of that comes out of we came in and we rolled out EOS for him, you know, set up level 10 meetings for him, got his people doing consistent, hey, every time we are in a meeting, we look at these things.

These are the consistent numbers.

These are the big rocks we're moving.

This is how we triage pain.

This is how we're working through issues and solving it with a to-do that we're going to hold you accountable for.

So next time we meet, you're telling me, is that done or not done?

I think simple stuff, right?

That's the stuff that moves the world.

It's the simple stuff.

And I think that he's a great testimony for us of success.

Absolutely.

I love that.

Because when you're starting your own business, you want your hand in everything.

You do.

But that's not scalable.

And you almost feel irresponsible for not, right?

Like if you're not in it at all.

But that's honestly.

If you were to ask me, Aaron, so you've been under the hood of all these different like good-sized entrepreneurs, people, especially on the climb, right?

Six, seven, eight, you know, climbing to nine-figure entrepreneurs.

What do you see as the consistent things of the people that don't make the climb?

And I think it's exactly that.

Like,

stay in your lane and find good people that can do the other things.

And I'm okay, even if you want to grow your own people, but even if you're growing your own people, like stay in your lane and let them grow, find them help, give them resources, let them grow, bring in experts with them to help them grow and make their ascension.

And I promise you, like, it.

We have a really strong track record.

I feel like we've earned a really strong name in the industry of gold standard, of like 2x, 3x, 4x, some people 10x growth.

Of all we're doing is get consistent and stick to a system.

That's like the thing visionaries suck at.

They suck is to get consistent and stick into a system, right?

So find somebody that can stick to a system and roll with it because that's going to enable you to grow.

That's going to set your foundation so that you can build.

I love this.

How did you become so knowledgeable in this?

Did you have a business prior to this?

Yeah.

So I mean, I failed.

I failed prior, right?

That's the whole hero's journey for all of us.

You know, I think that

coming up, I was always good with systems.

I worked for a lot of different people and I always, from even just a kid, you know, starting 13, 14, 15, getting jobs and really watched people's systems.

And I would, you know, they'd move me up to management pretty quick in any of the organizations that I was in.

But I was always watching, yeah, but why do we do it that way?

And like the boring stuff, right?

Like the handbooks and the tech and like, how are we doing?

What we're doing and do we have to do it that way?

And just asking questions.

And then

I actually started, so where I started my own business was I started, I owned a skateboard snowboard shop.

And when it was part of a chain in Orange County, it was a little mom-and-pop shop owned by a Lebanese family.

And I was the one white guy, you know, that they led into leadership.

And then I bought one of their locations and I divorced from the brand and I just did my own thing.

And then we came into the retail crisis in 2006, 7, 8, and I had to close it down.

And it was such a heartbreak because I had leveraged my house to do this business.

And it was like I'm a couple hundred grand in debt that I didn't have.

And I had to go back and renegotiate with the bank on my house loan.

And it was all this like super humbling stuff.

But it taught me the lesson of humility, you know, and when when things don't work.

And I feel like half my job is just relating to owners because I think when you get to that place as an owner, you don't have a lot of people you can talk to anymore, you know, like the people you're working for, you can't like lower your guard in some ways.

And so I feel like half the guys I've got to work with have become such dear friends because I don't really work for them.

I'm working with them.

I'm helping them build their thing, but I'm also kind of a release valve for the pressure tension, you know, of them and their people, you know, and I can just kind of listen, give them some critique, give them some advice, say, hey, this is what I've seen work really well.

I think that's another cool thing when you're under so many hoods is you see what works and what doesn't work.

You know, and I can be like, hey, so I've, I've been four clicks down past where you're at right now.

There's a dead end on that road.

I think that we should unplug that, reel it back in.

I know you don't love that.

Let's reel that backwards and push this way because I've actually seen people make that shift.

And that's actually been their ascension.

So I...

I think that's probably been my journey is learning on my own in my own failure, but then also being willing to share that story and be sympathetic.

And I know what it's like when you're feeling the pressure of having to make payroll.

I know what it's like when you're like, do I pay my next lease payment or do I pay the people that have been working?

Like those things that are stressful.

And I'll never go back to brick and mortar again.

Like that wasn't my jam.

You know what I mean?

Like, so it was a big lesson for me of things that I never want to do again.

I don't think I'd ever get into brick and mortar.

Yeah.

I mean, I loved it for, I loved it for the season it was in.

It taught me a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I think that

it also taught me what I don't want to do.

Just the overhead, man.

It's too high.

It 100% is.

Yeah.

The inventory and all that.

The inventory, man.

You want to be a Burton rep or you want to be a Burton vendor?

Awesome.

They're going to make you go so deep into every single season.

You're just outlaying so much cash and you're never going to sell it.

All of a sudden you liquidate it at cost just to try and make your recoup your money back up.

So that's not a game I want to do.

That is stressful.

And then there's another level to this when it comes to selling, right?

So you got to remove yourself from the company.

Do you help with that too?

Yeah.

So I've helped with some acquisitions.

You know, we actually do a lot of coffee, which is the crazy thing.

So I've got all these online entrepreneurs that we just talked about the names of, guys, that are awesome.

But then we have this whole other half of the business.

What I found is operations is pretty much operations no matter what it is so i've got attorney clients and i've got brewery clients and i've got a lot of coffee clients drive-through coffee specifically okay um and so i think that uh i've helped more in that space of acquisition there where it's like they they grow up from like one two three mom and pop shops into like they have 14 15 shops and then a big conglomerate comes and wants to buy them so i've helped with more of that kind of thing oh i didn't know people were doing drive-by coffee shops like that yeah i just think of starbucks and dunkin' and that's it yeah so like dutch bros is probably one that's oh dutch bros yeah that's like a drive-through that came out of, I live in Oregon.

I'm from Southern Oregon.

They came out of my area,

but they've grown up really fast.

Yeah.

They're actually one of my favorite spots.

Yeah.

Because they're cheaper than Starbucks and Duncan.

I love the drive-through coffee culture, and we could go on on a whole other route on drive-through coffee, but I own a coffee business in Belize.

We're the first drive-through coffee in Belize.

The campus of Belize, yes.

Why'd you pick that?

I love Belize.

It's English-speaking.

American dollar goes two to one.

It's tropical.

I've been going down there for the last 20 years, and I thought, man, there isn't a lot of this stuff down here yet.

And the funny thing about Americans is we all love to travel and we don't want to see any other Americans when we go there.

But then when we get there, we all bitch about how bad the coffee is, you know?

So I thought,

how could I take something that all these hoods I've been underneath with coffee retailers and roll it into my own thing in a place that I love serving Americans as they travel and are remote?

And so it's cool.

We've been doing that the last couple of years, been doing really, really well.

Wow.

I got to get out there.

Belize.

It's like magic, bro.

Yeah.

It is the coolest place.

It's like this eclectic conglomerate of like Creole people, you know, like think Jamaican, you know, that speak with Creole like dialect and that, that whole intonation.

And then you've got a bunch of Chinese people who fled when Taiwan was invaded by China.

And so you've got a bunch of Chinese there.

And then you've got a bunch of Mennonites there.

So all these German, white, German-speaking people, it's like this eclectic nation.

And then all the Latin nations that pour into it as well.

But English is the predominant language.

So it's the national language because it was British Honduras first, you know, before it became Belize in the 70s.

So it's the coolest little country.

If you've never been there, it's like, it's like the thing you never want to talk about because you don't want to bring everybody on a a podcast to your favorite spot.

But, like, you know, your history, man.

I like that.

You're a history buff.

That's a good, good place.

That's cool.

Yeah.

When it comes to key hires, have you noticed any specific job positions that are super important to companies?

Yeah, we do a lot of recruiting.

So I'd say we have like four or five recruiting projects going on at all times.

And usually I only do them for my high-level retainers at this point.

But sometimes, like, and I know I was in, I'm in your WhatsApp group and we talk, and I'm like, hey, I do it for you guys because you guys are great guys.

And but I think that with your hiring, I would say always think about where you can use them a couple positions beyond this.

I mean, I would, you know, a lot of times people are like, hire C, hire C-suite, go spend, you know, but you're talking about like six figures on a hire right out of the can and probably, you know, a couple hundred grand at least for a C-suite person that's going to be, you know, worth their salt as a C-suite.

But it's like, do you need to make that spend right now?

Or could we hire somebody as an operations manager and grow them up into a director of operations and then grow them up into your COO over time and give them like carrots that you're leading them along?

Like I would say the best advice I can give for anybody with hiring is make sure you have a KPI you can associate with them.

What's their key performance indicator?

You know, like make sure they have a metric that you're tracking because how do you know if they're doing a good job or not?

Is that your gut?

Like how many, how many visionaries have made fires over gut instead of like, no, no, no, your gut is good, but numbers are better.

You know, so like, how are we rating this person?

So I would say even EAs, I've watched EAs ascend from an EA all the way up to a director of ops to a COO because they have the same kind of mindset.

So like look for the right kind of people, but don't just hire for the the position you need now.

Think about if I grew this person a little bit, I could probably pay them less.

I could see if they're going to fit my culture.

And then I can see if they can ascend to something that four or five years down the road, they could be, they're so loyal to you now.

You gave them their opportunity.

Like you've continued to pay them well and grow them well.

So I love those kind of stories where it's like, yeah, we could go hire C-suite right now, but does that guy do as well as he says he does?

Or is his resume just strong?

Or was it, was he just bullshitting you?

You know what I mean?

But if you find somebody that's just smart and has the raw skill and is like a do-whatever it takes, and a lot of times young people will work harder for that, you know, then you can ascend them better.

I really enjoy that.

I like that way more.

I've heard horror stories of C-suite hires from Fortune 500 companies going to like a startup culture and they just suck.

I think the danger is

at a certain level, you start making so much money, right?

And so then you start to lose touch on your profitability.

And nobody is going to get on this show and tell you they've lost touch with their profitability.

But I'm telling you, being under the, under the hood of a lot of places, most guys don't know their profitability or at least their line item profitability of do all your line items perform the same?

Right.

Or do your, because everybody loves high ticket, high ticket, high ticket.

Everybody wants to high ticket, right?

But it's like high ticket costs a lot to fulfill on.

And are you taking everything into consideration that it takes on the high ticket?

A lot of times your mid ticket is actually your more juicy one, but people overlook it.

But long story short, I think that, you know, you get into it and as you start taking apart people's businesses and you start talking about profitability, they start making a certain amount of money.

And so they just start hiring because they see the top line.

But the top line isn't the bottom line.

The top line is what you're making when you sell, not once you've spent all your cash and you've got this much left so you make decisions based on your top line you bring in all these c players and if they suck how long does it take for you to determine they suck you know i mean like this is their specially not yours you know and so i just think that when you get a certain size people assume you have to hire at a c level and i think that can be that can be an achilles yeah that can instead of saying no no no let's take apart what does this role need to do?

And is that the spend we need to make right now?

Or could we hire a mid-level player that could ascend to a top-level player and probably be just as good because you're going to give them an opportunity, give them some growth opportunities, find them a mentor?

And then they're your boy or they're your girl.

The trust is there.

You gave them a shot.

I love that kind of a story way more than just going out and hiring seats.

I'm the same way.

When I hire people, I actually don't care if they went to college.

Like, I really don't.

No, I think I tell my kids, so I've got four kids, right?

All of them are out of the house now.

It's the craziest thing to go from having four kids.

My wife and I just celebrate our 28-year anniversary.

Four kids all out of the house, and we're back to empty nesters again.

But I talk to my kids all the time about, hey, listen, college is great if you need college to go do what you need to do.

My wife's a nurse.

Like, she had, there's a certain amount of learning.

You got to go through school to be a nurse.

You can't just show up and be like, I think I'd be really good with injections.

That's not how it works.

I'm not legally at least.

But that's not every business.

And I think that there are a lot of businesses out there that are willing to give you a shot if you're just sharp.

and you know how to mind your P's and Q's and you're you're good with people and they'll pay you a whole lot more than even if you went through all the way through and got your degree.

And then you're at base level trying to prove to people you know what we're doing.

Instead of like, if you can use these years to build the ground level and give yourself opportunities, from my perspective, I think college has its place, but it's definitely not the only place.

For sure.

I think from a marketing perspective, I'd rather see someone do some marketing campaigns, have some numbers rather than a marketing degree.

Yeah.

That's more valuable to me.

Numbers tell the story, right?

Like, numbers tell your story.

And I think that if you can show that you can perform, I don't care what school you went to.

For real.

And

we're so, like, the world is changing, bro.

The world is crazy right now.

Like, what are the universities teaching right now?

You know what I mean?

Are they teaching cutting edge?

They're teaching probably stuff that's a little bit behind, right?

Because are those people even working in the real world anymore?

Like, I just think that things are happening in the real world at such a fast pace now.

If you can tuck in under somebody's wing, learn from them,

I think you can make the ascent so much faster, so much better.

It's so fast in the business space.

I think textbooks need to go because it's that fast.

Yeah.

I think that if you can find a good mentor, and I would say a good mentor is somebody that's doing the deal, right?

They're in the middle of it and they're willing to, they've come to that place in life.

Me, I'm 48, right?

Like, I'm in a spot now where I love, you know what I really love doing right now?

Like, believe sounds funny.

People are like, what do you, why would you even talk to Sean about beliefs in your coffee shop?

It makes no sense for the collab team.

I watch you for collab.

But the reason why I think it comes up that it's great is I love coming in alongside of guys now who are like 20, 22, 25, like 30, maybe like in that age group, who have all this energy, but don't have a lot of capital.

And I can say, hey, let's go do some stuff together and I'll make you a half owner.

Like, and what I'm going to do is I'm going to make an investment and I'm going to give you my wisdom, but I need your energy to go make this thing happen.

So, like, I partnered up with this young guy to go down to Belize and he was in one of my coffee clients that actually got acquired and he had a bunch of heartbreak because he wanted to be a franchisee and he had this extra equipment.

He was going to go out on his own.

I'm like, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, why don't you go out?

Why don't you go out with me?

Why don't you go to this thing in Belize?

Why don't you move down there and see how cool this can be?

Let's take all the the equipment.

Let's go try something, see if it'll work.

And so now he stays down there like way more than I'm down there.

I'm down there four times a year.

I go down once a quarter.

Wow.

I'm running the whole thing remote.

He's down there, though, like one month on, one month off.

And it's like this great business opportunity that he never would have gotten to get except for that I said, hey, let me take my skill set and let me pair it with your skill set.

You've been running these coffee shops.

You were regional over seven locations.

Let's go build our own thing, make our own handbooks, do it our own way that we know is going to work.

And then let's partner up on these things.

So I've got that and I've got like this coffee ingredients business where we do energy drinks and we do frat mix.

And I've partnered up with another young guy that does that.

And I have this whole like retention company that helps people with their collections on people when they failed.

And I partnered up with a guy who did that.

And I just need, I get to be involved with these guys and give them opportunity for the lift.

And we use their energy and their insights and their wisdom.

And we use my years and capital.

And I love that.

I love it.

Yeah, because when you're in your 20s, you got energy for days.

You do.

And you're just looking for somebody to believe in you, right?

Yeah.

Somebody to give you a chance.

Yeah, if I had an investor slash mentor in my early 20s, man, we would have grown even faster.

I had to learn it all on my own.

And I think, honestly, I don't think money does good things to people, man.

I'll be honest.

You know, I think that when you're like an old dude that's sitting on a bunch of money, I think it kind of makes you kind of fool yourself.

A lot of ego and things that, how's that better in the world?

You know what I mean?

Like, let's find some young dudes and let's go try it.

Let's go try some stuff.

Like, let's go have some fun.

It's so exciting to watch a young guy get excited about something that you've been and done before.

You know, like, let's go do some cool stuff and let me infuse it and let's see if it's going to work.

And oh, that one didn't work, okay, that's okay.

Like, it's not like I put all of my eggs in the same basket, like, let's keep trying because I feel like failing is actually the better lesson.

That's

I love that that young energy is contagious, and I think that's why, because I go to these business conferences and I'm usually on the younger side, and these guys are attracting me, even though they make 10 to 100 times more than me.

And I always wondered why, but I think it's the young energy they see themselves, yeah.

I think it's so good, and I feel like those young, those young guys need an older dude, I feel like, to balance them out, too.

You know, I mean, otherwise, they become all ego.

I think it's on both sides, right?

The old guy gets too full of himself, and he's got his empire.

The young guy gets some immediate success, and then he can get too full of himself.

And I think it's like, no, no, no, like, let's all just be humble and work with each other and realize we all put on our pants the same way, you know, one leg at a time.

Like, we all have had failures, we've all had successes, and let's just respect each other and then give each other opportunities and build off each other.

I think that's the thing.

I know we've talked a lot about Steve on this show, but like, Steve has won me as a friend for life because I feel like that guy just wants to help.

So giving.

He just had Damon John speak at my event.

Normally, if someone was to arrange that, they would want money or something out of it.

He didn't ask for anything.

Yeah.

And I love that.

And I feel like Steve models it so well.

I got to work with Damon John because he did some stuff with Pedro Adeo because Pedro Adeo is the challenge guy.

So he did all these challenges, all these big names.

And it's a big deal, dude.

Kudos to you that you had Damon come.

That's all.

All because of Steve, though.

That would have never happened.

And he didn't want anything in return.

And now I feel like I need to take care of him.

That's how I feel all the time.

Yeah.

So as I come into clients, I'm like, hey, who's doing your LLC setups and who's doing your tax structuring and who's doing your corporate credit?

Because Steve is such a good dude and he takes care of people and he makes it so it's a win-win.

And I think that's the kind of businessman I want to be is how can we make this a win-win?

Same.

That's how I think with everything.

If not, I don't want to just take.

I definitely don't want to be around people.

You know, there are some people that have come and they've, that's the cool thing about being where we're at right now is I feel like we're still pretty boutique.

I've got 17 people that work for me, you know what I mean?

And we've taken on probably about 20, 25 clients at a time, you know, so it's, but I still feel like we're still pretty boutique.

And, but it's great to be at the level where you're like, oh, I met that guy and he's kind of a dick.

Like I don't really, I don't really want to work with him.

You know what I mean?

Like that's, that's probably not going to be a way we go.

And to be able to say, hey, I just don't, I don't think we're going to align.

I don't think we're going to be a good fit.

You know, and make some decisions based on, is this a good fit?

And so guys like Steve and the people Steve brings to me are always like

salt of the earth.

So you've turned down some clients because of ego?

Yeah, for sure.

Because here's the thing is, I feel like, yeah, they could pay me.

But I've also found that with their ego, a lot of times there can come a lot of hypercriticality, you know what I mean?

Where they're super hypercritical.

And it's like a lot of times it's not necessarily these things that they're good at, but it's things they've assumed that they're good at.

And so what are we going to end up?

Like my contracts are only six to 12 months.

Like I'm not going to be around a long time.

I want to empower your people.

But if I see the way you're treating people is kind of awful.

And then like even if you never treat me awful, I know I'm not going to be able to set you up for success.

I'd rather you just keep your money.

In fact, if we can't make you successful, I'd rather just give you back your money.

Because I feel like my name is strong in this industry because what I say we can do, we do.

You know what I mean?

And I think that if I start sitting down at a table and I just don't have the right energy with somebody, I'm not feeling it.

I'm like, uh,

let me see if I can refer you to somebody or let me see.

You know, I know this guy that does this really well, and I'll try and always make it a win for the person that I'm parting ways with, but

it just isn't always a win-win to take somebody's money and try and,

you know, I'm the same way, but it took some failed deals to learn that for sure.

I used to take money and work with anyone, but now it's not with the karmic energy that they're giving off because you're just going to lose the money if they're not an ethical person.

And I think it's just fun to do business with people you enjoy.

I love John Akoff.

Like John, New York Times bestseller, like nine books.

Dude knows what he's doing.

And he's just the funniest dude.

But I'll tell you what, I get on a level 10 meeting with him.

You know, I do his EOS and we do level 10s every week and we look at his numbers and I feel like he's grown so amazing.

His book Soundtracks is one of my favorite.

He's got another one that just came out called All It Takes is a Goal, Gold.

You know, the thing that I'm talking about.

That's recognized.

But anyway, dude, so just authentically.

Genuinely what you read is the dude he shows up with at all these meetings with all these people that work for him and do work for him and represent him.

And I just think, I just want to do more work with people like that.

Like, let's just show up.

And

are you a good dude?

Like, are you a good lady?

Do you treat people well?

Like, those are the people I want to work with.

Having a bunch of money and being super successful, I feel like

sometimes, sometimes they can be cool.

Sometimes they can be awful.

For sure.

And I'd rather just find people that are good energy and are helping the world, man.

I love that.

What goes down on a level 10 meeting?

What is that?

Level 10s are rad because the thing I love most about EOS, Entrepreneur's Operating System by Gina Wickman, the book Traction,

is that it's just simple.

And I know EOS sometimes gets a bad rap because they're like, it's just, we tried EOS, it didn't work.

What I found it usually is that is the visionary said, EOS is going to be great.

Go make that happen.

The operator starts trying to make it happen.

And the visionary is like, I don't want to do all this.

Let's do it my way.

And they go a different way.

And so they roll out a fractured version of EOS and then it gets a bad name for it.

But the thing I love about level 10 meetings, L10s is what they're called in EOS's world, is every time we come to a meeting, the hope is like, let's knock down all the meetings that we're doing.

How can we silo it down just to one meeting a week?

And at that one meeting a week, how can we look at the same things every time so that everybody knows what they're going to walk in and expect?

So, you know, at a level 10, we'll help people set up their scorecard.

Like, what are the key metrics?

We all need to be looking all around this table.

This is what tells the best story.

We pour money in at the top, it turns this way, and it produces these results.

What's the best story when it comes to care?

Customer service, and how many tickets are open, and how many disputes you're getting, and how many failed payments we're chasing.

And, like, what's the the best story your scorecard tells so we can look at it for five minutes but if i'm on the beach and i'm not able to make the l10 and i'm able to pull up the scorecard i see exactly how the business did week over week and i can call and say hey why is that number down or this number up so you establish a scorecard you review it together you establish what are the big initiatives we're working on this quarter they call them quarterly rocks like what are the big milestones we're trying to move this quarter to get to our annual goal that's something that visionaries are awful with because they project this big thing at the beginning of the year and then they forget it like halfway through the year and then they pick up like 17 more things and it's like no no no let's just stick to the the goal you said you wanted to get here you eat an elephant one bite at a time that's quarter by quarter by quarter we're building towards the goal so these are the big things we're all going to tackle and I'm going to Sean's going to own this one and Aaron's going to own this one and Bill's going to own this and then how are we going to get that to complete by the end of the quarter and then we can move on to the next things next quarter you know and we build a list of what's coming next so you look at your your scorecard you look at your rocks and then the thing I think that EOS is brilliant at is let's create an issues list and everybody all week long be dropping the issues things that we need to solve this week and then let's all get together and actually talk about it.

And whoever said it's an issue, they get to share about it.

And then we get to all solve it together.

And then great, we decided that Shelly's going to be the one that drives that home and brings the solution to it.

We all decided on that.

Awesome.

That goes on the agenda.

And next week when we come back together, the first thing we're going to ask is, did that get done?

And if she's like, oh, no, then we'll say, okay, well, we'll give you one more week.

But if it's any longer than two weeks, you're fired.

Yeah,

we're going to bring it back to the issues and it's going to go back to the issues.

We're going to have to talk about it again.

And it's so crazy how something so simple as just a little bit of accountability.

Yeah.

Like, cause all of us are like, we're prone to getting into meetings.

How many meetings you sit in, you talk about these great ideas.

You're like, that was the best idea we ever had.

You walk out and nobody took notes.

Nobody took deliverables.

And then you're talking about it again six months later.

And you're like, wait a minute, didn't we talk about that like six months ago?

Yeah.

But so I love it because it's like, no, no, no, we talked about this.

We gave it a deliverable.

And then we said, next week, we're going to ask you about it.

And it's just this super tight system of accountability.

And that's honestly, Gino talks about traction.

And that's what I've seen is simple system, but weekly meetings done the same way every time is how you really start seeing traction.

You start seeing climb.

I love that.

I actually don't take many calls because I feel like most of them are so pointless.

But with a system like this, it makes sense.

I think the coolest thing for me is like, it's not narrative-based, right?

If you have talkers, it's like, no, no, no, no, no.

What's the problem?

And what are we trying to solve?

You know what I mean?

Like, wait, wait, wait, wait.

What are the numbers though, right?

Because sales guys get on and they want to tell you that, oh, I was talking to this lady and da-da-da and you're a half hour into some store and you're like, where is even the point?

You know, it's like, no, no, no.

Did you make your numbers?

Are we at where we're supposed to be?

And how did you stack up with a guy that was supposed to be doing it just like you?

Like, it silences a room.

You know, you roll out a level 10 meeting in your sales team.

It's like, no, no, we're just comparing sales guys against sales guys.

How are numbers looking?

And if they're not right, what's the problem?

And then how are we going to solve it?

And it's like, you can batch the meeting so quick and start making so much lift.

So I love it.

I think it's cool.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Aaron, it's been fun, dude.

Anything you want to promote or close off with?

Yeah, I would just say we have some free stuff.

And I always love giving out free first, right?

So we have our own podcast.

I told you that Ops Experts Club.

I'd love for you guys to look at it.

It's on all of the podcast podcast channels if you want to check it out there we also have a great just like quick starts tool that's like if you want to just check out something for free i've got my three best pieces that's a little mini course that i offer for free on the website at thecolab team.com and then i think the thing that we really do best though is rolling out eos l10s you know it's an eight-week thing that we do we do it for five grand you know for eight weeks we're installing this operating system for you we run your meetings for you we empower your people and then we let you take off with it so i think that's something we do that's at the collab team forward slash opsex so cool

thanks for coming on, man.

Thank you, brother.

I appreciate the time.

Thanks for watching, guys.

Hopefully, you learned something.

It can help scale your companies.

I'll see you next time.