Avoiding Burnout, Rule of 72 and Building Great Company Culture I Steve Kopshaw DSH #368

an empathetic leader and I teach people to be empathetic leaders and really like lead with that relationship.

For me, one of the most valuable things in my career, my professional career, has been my relationships.

And you can't just surface level, hey, Sean, nice to meet you.

We're best friends now.

Like, no, we actually have to communicate.

You have to work on that.

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all right steve copshaw all the way from new jersey where i'm from that's an automatic bond right there isn't it you know if you can go into and ask somebody what exit from you from and what exit are you from and they actually get the joke that's the best way to start off a relationship yeah which exit were you I'm all the way up north, 167 in Bergen County.

Deep.

I was Somerset County.

Okay.

Yeah, I'm maybe 10 minutes away from the New York State border.

So pretty close.

Yeah, that's about as north as you can get, man.

Exactly.

You've been there your whole life?

Yeah, pretty much.

Born and raised.

A couple of years outside of there, parents divorced and all that stuff.

But maybe only two years not in New Jersey.

Okay.

So, but yeah,

it's a good state.

I will be leaving at some point, though.

Got it, got it.

All right.

So let's talk about what you do for a living, which is you basically help businesses grow, scale.

How did you start getting into that?

It was accidental, honestly.

I owned a bunch of my own businesses and in the endeavor to try to solve my own problems and grow my businesses, I started to have to learn new skills.

In my first seven years of owning businesses, I got to only opening and owning three different businesses.

But in the last two years of owning my businesses and actually getting to grow it, I went from that three up to 17 locations.

And it was through two key skill acquisitions, which was leadership and marketing.

having control of your leads and your ability to grow your business on the front end became a very powerful tool, as well as understanding how to drive and motivate a team, but reward them and make sure that they're taken care of so that they want to take care of you and the business.

So that was

the nutshell version.

I think moving into the actual consulting side that I do today, there was a bet that I had placed with a CEO of a company, and it was that I wouldn't be able to open a business stronger than he was able to open his business.

And it was a fun bet.

And in the moment, it was

an ego bet more than anything for me i was going to win and i'm going to beat him and it's going to be amazing the reality was not only did i win i crushed him almost almost 3x

and on the other side of that sure the the payment the the recognition the ego pieces were amazing but realizing that i had just changed the future for a bunch of business owners and franchisees and people who invested their life savings and put their houses on the line, that was that key moment that really changed of I have the ability to do something unique and I can spread my impact greater.

And that was the piece that really got me into actually the consulting world and helping people grow their businesses.

Interesting.

I'm curious what business that was now.

It was an Elements Massage, actually.

Elements Massage.

In Ohio,

Concord, Ohio, that we opened up and crushed them, but it was a massage studio.

Wow.

So you weren't even there because you were in Jersey.

Yeah, no, I wasn't there.

Led the team, leadership and communication, big, big components to get it to happen.

That's impressive.

Cause when I think of leadership, I'm thinking of like in person, but you're able to do it remotely.

Absolutely.

I mean, in today's world, you have to figure it out.

17 locations, I was in six different states at my peak, and you can't be in everywhere at once.

My first two businesses were 45 minutes away from each other.

I couldn't figure it out how to lead in both and I could drive to both of them in the same day.

But learning that skill and that communication piece that really layers in there is what enabled me to grow to what I was able to do.

I love that.

Yeah.

And you're big on leadership and communication, right?

So are those the type of skills where you need to physically do it and you can't really learn them in a book?

I think it's a little bit of both.

You know, for me, I had a lot of people who cared for me and wanted to see me become successful in my entrepreneurial career.

So they poured into me.

I've also been a student and I want to learn and read books and I'll say listen to books.

I don't, it's hard for me to sit down and read a whole book, but I do listen to books.

And over time, you start to see.

things change as your actions change in leadership.

And it became that kind of positive reinforcement that I needed to continue down that path and be able to really put the change forward that I needed to support my team and help them be the best they could be.

Right.

And when you come into a new business and you lead the team, what are some common issues you've seen throughout the teams you've led?

Communication is the biggest thing.

I've mentioned that obviously as a piece and it's a function of systems.

It's a function of knowing what to do.

It's a function of making sure that people understand their expectations, how to achieve the goal.

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And sure, some people might be able to figure that out.

But if you don't give them guardrails and a scoreboard on how to actually win communication, then they oftentimes don't win.

But then the business owners are stuck with this employee that's not productive.

They won't let them go because they know internally they did a poor job hiring them, training them, communicating with them.

And it's stuck in this vicious cycle where the entrepreneur's business is now suffering because of poor communication.

Right.

And a common leadership style you see in the business space is one ruled by fear, where the employee fears their boss, right?

What do you think of that model?

I'm complete opposite.

I'm an empathetic leader and I teach people to be empathetic leaders and really like lead with that relationship.

For me, one of the most valuable things in my career, my professional career, has been my relationships.

And you can't just surface level, hey, Sean, nice to meet you.

We're best friends now.

Like, no, we actually have to communicate you have to work on it there's a couple of people who i've listened to and there's a there's a a podcast uh that i've listened to a lot and they have this guest on there adam and he talks about relationships and how important it is to actually pour into them if you want them to work right the other side of that is you can't pour into 500 relationships so you need to make sure you're choosing your relationships wisely pouring into them wisely but pouring to them because you want to and you like that human more than i want something out of it i I love that.

Have you had to deal with coworkers not liking each other or maybe not respecting one another?

And how did you handle that, if so?

Oh, absolutely.

And it comes down to just trying to understand the why.

A lot of times that happens because there's a perception that you're underperforming, you're not doing your job, you're lazy, you're trying to get all the attention, you're the teacher's pet or in some version thereof.

And it comes down to understanding what are the expectations that teammates need to have for each other and how do we reward the positive kind of impact that they can create for each other.

There's a couple of systems out there that you can use to create where every beginning of the month, you and I get trophies, let's say, and we each have 10 trophies and that's worth 10 US dollars.

But what happens is just because you get your 10 trophies and $10

doesn't mean anything.

The only way somebody can spend it is if you give it to me.

In order for me to get it, I have to earn that from you, which then means you've noticed that my positive actions, you've also rewarded me.

That has no option but to build our positive relationship and installing systems like that is what helps people start to see the good in people versus the they don't work hard they this they that whatever it might be yeah i love that because i think measuring employee output is important because people need to know what kind of pace they're on and if they don't have something visual that they could see i feel like they'll just get lazy they'll get complacent Exactly.

It's that scoreboard again.

I mean, take football, take hockey, take basketball.

The whole reason there's a scoreboard in a sport is so we know who's winning the game.

Absolutely.

And if you have no visual way to understand what's going on from a team perspective, you're left to make assumptions.

And typically humans fill in the gaps and make assumptions more in the negative direction than they do the positive.

For sure.

Yeah, that's definitely common.

And that's something I want to dive into, the victim mentality, right?

Taking responsibility.

Is that a common issue you're seeing in the workplace?

Yeah, there's a lot of people.

I think that it's both sides, that a lot of people take not enough responsibility or they take too much responsibility and cover other people on the team that need to need more responsibility and need to kind of be more impacted by whatever the outcome was.

It's easy in today's world to get complacent and maybe not do what you need to do.

And you go down this road where...

It's not my fault.

So-and-so didn't give me this.

They didn't do that.

I didn't have enough attention.

I insert something that is somebody else's fault other than my own.

When the reality is you could just step up and ask the question or simply ask for help.

How many times have you heard of somebody who could have solved their problem problem if they were just willing to ask for help, but their ego got in the way?

Or on the flip side, like I said, there's those couple of leaders out there that will cover their team too much.

They don't allow them to have responsibility.

They take it all on themselves and they end up still stifling the growth of the department or the company because they themselves can't do everything.

And

that's what they're situationally doing in those instances when they're taking all the responsibility off of their team.

I love that.

Now, let's talk company culture because that's something you've done a great job building.

There's certain companies, startups that have very little, if any, company culture.

Is that something you really pride yourself in and you think it's important?

Culture is going to be one of those kind of linchpin things in a successful business.

And I don't want to argue over what culture is good or bad.

I'm going to, if I'm an empathetic leader, I'm clearly going to have more of a caring culture.

And yes, we have to work.

And during its work time, you have to grind.

But Friday night at 8 p.m., I'm not going to ask you to work.

Weekends, I'm not going to ask you to work.

With the exception, hey, we have a show, we're somewhere, we're traveling, then fine.

But

culture is really the cadence and the breathing and the feeling of the business.

And that needs to be set by whoever's in charge, likely the entrepreneur, owner, leader, whatever.

And if you want rise and grind and work 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

Fine.

Like that, I'm not here to tell you that's wrong.

It doesn't fit me.

I won't work there, but it might be great.

And some businesses have to have seasons of different cultures, but make sure everybody you bring in fits the culture.

If you want to have that, hey, we're only working nine to five, we're only doing 40 hours, I don't want you to go above and beyond, you don't have to grind too hard.

Accountability maybe is lower.

Again, not my place either.

I want high accountability.

then make sure you bring people into that as well.

So culture is important, but make sure you're bringing the right people into the culture that is going to do what you need it to do.

And then when it comes to integrating personal lives, right, there's some leaders that don't want to hear about your personal life, just keep it business between these hours.

What's your take on that?

I'd relate that back to culture.

I want to understand as much about your personal life as you're willing to share

because that's how I know as a leader, how I can help in certain instances.

But if you don't want to share, I would never force that on you.

And it's not going to cause a problem.

If we want, I don't want to talk about it.

I want no part of it.

Again, that's up to you.

Just make sure that everybody understands those pieces.

And you need to make sure, I'm assuming that it's not coming from a place of, I don't care.

It's rather just more of a, this isn't the time and place to talk about those things.

And perfectly fine.

So again, relating that back to culture.

Nice.

There's a couple Instagram posts that I thought were interesting that I pulled.

I'd love for you to elaborate on these.

You said change is inevitable, but growth is optional.

Yeah.

At the end of the day, every single day, especially now with AI, things like that, I mean, change is happening quicker than we can.

keep up with it now.

There's so much new happening, so much information.

So you're either going to adapt, grow to it, learn it, leverage it, maybe actively decide it's not a part of what you're doing.

So you're going to ignore it, perhaps for certain reasons, but you're either going to adapt new things or you're not.

And you're going to be left in history or you're going to continue to stay current.

I had a meeting yesterday with somebody.

I was like, I've never used ChatGPT.

And I'm like, in my mind, I'm like, that's mind-blowing.

How have you not used it at all yet?

Like, it's a $20 a month tool that is a great way to create a lot of things.

Oh, they charge now?

I I thought it was free.

You can buy the, there is the free version, but the plus version, if you want to do some pictures and do more in-depth things and some data analysis, it's 20 bucks a month.

So $20 a month to have a high-powered assistant to brainstorm with is well worth it.

Yeah.

You've had a few clips on AI and you had an interesting take on AI, right?

You don't see it replacing humans?

It'll replace the lazy ones.

Right.

And I mean that with all the love in the world.

I think that AI should be a reason or a tool to help increase your efficiency, optimize what you're doing, get more done in the same amount of time, instead of do less work to get the same outcome.

The people who are using AI to do all their work, A, it's generic.

It's going to be similar to everybody else.

People on the internet posting their reels, their long form, their short, whatever it is, it's all AI generated and it's just fake.

You don't connect to that.

But if you can leverage it to help you brainstorm, like, hey,

I had this instance with a client and here was the thing that came out of it.

What are some suggestions I can talk about today on my Instagram reel?

And it gives you three suggestions and then you take that and you run with it and you show up being you.

Phenomenal.

Maybe it helped you think of something you wouldn't have thought of and that just makes the content better.

Yeah.

I want to talk about high-level decision making.

A lot of people watch this.

They're in the startup space, so they got maybe a few co-founders.

What is your process when you're making important decisions?

So I mentioned briefly the freedom framework.

Step one of the freedom framework, the F, is filter.

The filter process is the act of understanding what it is you need to be focusing on to create the most meaningful movement in your business.

For me, everybody gets this kind of, I call it KPI PTSD.

We have all these KPIs, all these pieces of data that we could work on, that we could do, we could focus on, and we end up getting kind of paralyzed almost where we don't actually get it done.

But the KPIs, I'll tell every business owner that they need to understand what is your total client lifetime value.

So how much they pay you over how long they're with you, minus your cost to fulfill on the promise you made to them, your operating costs.

So for a given month, how much you spent to run your business divided by how many clients you were serving, and then your cost of acquisition.

So cost of acquisition, acquisition, what did you spend minus how many people did you get?

Lifetime value minus fulfillment minus acquisition equals your profit per acquisition.

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So if you came to me and said, hey, Steve, I'm currently making $1,000 per person.

My profit per acquisition is $1,000.

I would sit here and be like, cool, let's scale.

What are the things that are going to get in the way of scaling?

But if you're sitting here saying, hey, Steve, my business is broken or I can't grow it.

What's wrong?

I can turn around and ask you, is your lifetime value or your fulfillment or your acquisition the most broken?

You can have a 99% to 100, a 99% to 100, and a 91% to 100.

91% is really good, but compared to the other two 99s, it's the most broken, or it gives you the most opportunity.

And everybody can sit there and make a logical decision on three pieces of data where we can continue to dive down.

And that's kind of the build out of the KPI triangles, where it simplifies all your KPIs.

It puts things in hierarchy of what's most important, but it also enables you to communicate with your team more easily because we understand how all those KPIs interact with each other.

Right.

So, very high-level overview on there.

There's way more depth that we can go in, but we'll need way more than that.

I like the way you simplify it, though, because you can take that model and apply it to any business, right?

I'm sure you've consulted for all types of businesses, and it doesn't matter that you don't really know about the industry as long as you know the numbers.

As long as you know the numbers, you can make knee-jerk reactions that are going to be rooted in data, but start to actually go out and use your emotional experience-based kind of thinking process and go solve the problem.

You as a human are good at really specific things.

I'm good at specific things.

The things we're both good at are different things.

If you and I run into the same problem, we're both going to resort back to our experience and what we're good at to solve the problem versus what actually is needed to solve that problem.

And it's an emotional tie to what we're good at, what we're comfortable with, what we like doing, what makes us feel good.

all of those things.

The profit per acquisition model breaks that, pulls you out of emotion and puts you into logic, and it breaks the complexity of all your KPIs and data down into simplistic conversation pieces where we can now look at three to five pieces of information and make the right decisions the same consistent time as well.

So we're using the same logic every time.

I love that.

There's a lot of investors these days that really place emphasis on the team aspect, the founders.

What emphasis do you place on team versus maybe the idea, the product, the service?

The team is what's important when you're going to go call it maybe grow depending upon your product, your service, your company, but definitely scale.

Without that team component, at some point in time, you're going to run into problems unless it is completely software-based, right?

And that's maybe

those pieces.

The product itself has to work, though.

The service has to produce the outcome that you said it would.

If those things don't come true, then client satisfaction, client fulfillment is going to be hurt over the long run, and that's going to hurt your reputation.

So I would say it's generally speaking a 50-50.

There's just seasons of when we're working on a business of which one is maybe the priority right now.

Right.

Speaking of seasons, what's looking good this year, 2024?

Anything catching your eye?

Organic marketing, getting out there and making sure that people know who you are and they see you.

Because as we think about building our brands, building our connection, building our relationships, and that's what I mean by organic.

I don't mean simply like always posting on social media on Instagram or TikTok TikTok or whatever, but just the organic side of the world.

This is going to be an expensive year for paid advertising.

There's elections coming up.

There's going to be a lot of attention towards different things.

There's going to be a lot of distractions towards all the political landscape that exists.

So this year, spend time building that organic marketing piece.

Go to events, shake hands, spend more time on social media, producing, not consuming, and get out there and meet more people.

Those people are going to be the ones that are going to help you grow your business and get through a year where that attention piece is going to be a challenge.

I agree.

And there's a company you're involved with, Mind Pump, that's crushing it with the organic content, getting millions of views on YouTube.

How did you get involved with Mind Pump?

Mind Pump, I mean, they're rock stars from the get-go of the organic side.

That podcast has been around for nine years at this point in time, and they were doing this before it was cool.

Let's go out and put content out there.

Let's be and look and sound different than the rest of everybody, but also give truth to people who need to find a source of truth And let's start a movement behind it.

So one of the companies I used to work with prior, we actually leveraged Mind Pump from an advertising perspective to go out and generate more leads for the business.

That was my introduction to them.

And then from there, just the friendship and the relationship really flourished and bonded where we had this opportunity.

My history is in owning gyms.

They're obviously big in fitness.

And together with my ability to go grow things and want to rise and grind to the extent that I do, now let's go out and create some new courses and help solve a problem, which is creating more successful fitness coaches, personal trainers, and just help that industry out, especially in today's day and age.

So really through a prior connection, but a shared common goal was that thing that really pulled us together.

Love it.

You said you used to own some gyms.

Did Alex Hormose email you ever?

Plenty of times.

Oh, he did?

Plenty of times.

I had,

you know, gym launch.

Gym launch is one of the reasons, honestly, that I got into the marketing side of the house.

If it wasn't for gym launch me learning some of what they did but also that it wouldn't have piqued my interest as much i went to school for engineering and marketing to me is just a giant numbers game of trying to figure out what's going on but there was never the you didn't know how to do it and gym launch became that thing and i've been fortunate enough to actually be able to be mentored by Alex and Layla over a span of 18 months of my life and everything, which has been phenomenal too.

Absolutely.

That's huge.

And what they did with the gym industry, I I mean, revolutionary, right?

Absolutely.

100%.

You can never take anything away from them.

And I owe a lot to them,

which is, you know, I'm grateful to be able to say that

I do owe them a lot.

Yeah.

And speaking of marketing, you know, there's different perspectives.

Elon Musk's perspective is really interesting to me because I feel like there's not a lot of people that can make it work, but his basically saying that your product is good enough where you don't need marketing.

And I feel like that's very hard to get to.

What do you think of that advice?

there's a positioning that it absolutely makes sense and I do believe your product kind of prior needs to be good enough for it to make sense and people to want to refer you and talk about you but when I think about all of the different problems in the world that people are out solving and one of my recent Facebook posts was literally solve bigger problems and that's when you get paid more and that's when you're more successful creating an entirely new car company, let's say, is an entirely different scaled problem than going out and helping $5 million a year entrepreneurs hit their goals and dreams comparing to myself.

Do I think that my product is going to become so good that I don't have to market?

I would love to get referrals.

But also at the same point, the business that I get to be in, the business with Mind Pump, all those things, we've not spent a dime on marketing.

Wow.

So products are good enough because we've built a following, we've built the attention.

We don't have to go spend money.

And that's an amazing position to be in.

So I think it's one of those things where to catch 22, yes, your product has to be good enough, but at some point in time, you're going going to have to spend some money.

Because even though at Mind Pump, we just launched a product, there's nine years of work that went into building an audience that we finally said, hey, do you want to buy something that we're going to solve a problem with?

If we came out on day one and said, do you want to buy this thing?

The performance of that would have been completely different.

Exactly.

With my business, the consulting pieces, if I didn't have my relationships and people didn't see what I've done historically, I could have come out and said, hey, I'm Steve.

I can help you solve your problem.

No one would give me a dime.

But because of relationships, because of history, knowing what I've done for companies, I don't even have to say, hey, that's like, hey, can you help me?

Of course I can help you.

That's literally what I want to do.

I love it.

Nine years.

Wow.

So what was the product?

We launched a course for personal trainers.

It's not meant to replace, call it your personal training certification.

It's meant to be a bolt-on where one of the biggest issues we face today for personal trainers is they are not successful, not because they're not good trainers, but because they don't understand or they're not skilled on the business, marketing, sales, fulfillment, ascension side of the house.

And your typical personal training certification doesn't even really touch on those things.

So as you go down this road and you're thinking through it, what's the biggest obstacle causing trainers to not be successful?

They don't understand that.

Let's plug that in.

So we built a course effectively trying to get personal trainers to become more successful through the vehicle of teaching them those skills that can help them up level and actually apply their knowledge of training to more clients.

And speaking of training, you've run three Spartan races a year.

I'd love to hear the mental and the physical side of that race.

How long is it?

I did six last year.

Six?

Six last year.

Three in one weekend.

Wow.

Don't do that.

Don't ever do that.

You know, so Spartan races, there's multiple distances and lengths and things like that, multiple times.

The core three that I do is the sprint, the super, and the beast.

The sprint is a little bit over three miles.

The super is about seven and a half, eight miles.

And the beast is around 13 to 14 miles.

The sprint is a lot of fun.

I would tell everybody to go do a sprint.

Is that in mud?

Some, depending upon the course.

You know, depending upon, like in the middle of the desert, there's not going to be mud.

But on a mountain up in the northeastern U.S., then, yeah, there's probably mud.

That's an hour, hour and a half race, and it's fun and enjoyable, and you get through it, and it's a camaraderie-building event.

The super is kind of that first step.

Kind of sucks, seven, eight miles up and down the side of a mountain.

Depending upon the course that's two and a half to maybe five hours depending upon how shape in shape you are things like that yeah the beast is uh

my fastest beast ever was about four hours and my slowest beast ever was nine hours oh that's a big range so yeah i mean killington vermont uh literally going up the side of a ski mountain that's like a 60 degree incline That'll mess you up a little bit.

Just the name of that town, Killington.

That's all you need to know about it.

Exactly.

But that one, again, depending upon the course, but it's for me obstacle course races have always been a motivator for me to stay in shape and do some running i don't enjoy running i'd rather lift heavy things right um but it's been a reason to maintain some level of cardiovascular health and endurance and things like that and it's just fun i do it with friends uh get to travel around sometimes and do it with other people and work work colleagues and um just enjoyable i'll add it to my list man i'll do the sprint i used to run 5ks so that that doesn't sound too bad all right if you'll do the sprint we can find a way we'll do it it together, have some fun.

They run them every month or so, right?

Yeah, there's a bunch of sprints throughout the year.

Those are the easiest ones to get to.

They do them the most because they're the easiest to set up, the shortest.

Nice.

Yeah, I'll train.

Three miles ain't too bad, but it's like physical obstacles, too, right?

It's not just running.

Yeah, it's 20 obstacles that you'll have to face.

Some of them are...

you know, jump over three pieces of wood that are on fire at the finish line and that's an obstacle and it's kind of like, don't, don't mess that up.

That's easy.

But then some of it is monkey bars all the way to trying to

climb upside down on ropes and everything like that and shoot me across lakes and stuff.

Damn, so you got to be physically strong too.

You can't just be fast.

Yeah, no, you got to be strong.

If you can't do a pull-up, you're going to have a problem.

I can't.

So I'll have to train.

We got to get you to do it.

I could do push-ups, but pull-ups, I think it's

my wingspan's so long, you know?

Yeah, you're taller.

It's harder for you.

Yeah.

Damn.

All right.

I'll get in shape for that, but I will do it.

I'm a man of my word.

Worst case scenario, we go, you miss an obstacle, you do some burpees or whatever, but it's it's still, it's camaraderie.

We go through, we have fun together, we get to the finish line together and you celebrate a win.

No, that's embarrassing.

I would definitely want to be in shape where I could complete the obstacles.

Fair.

All right, man.

I want to end off with burnout.

That's a fitting end, right?

Avoiding it.

Any experiences, having it yourself and future tips for avoiding it?

Yeah, I've been burnt out plenty of times in my career.

You need to be self-aware, first of all.

You just need to understand what your body, what your mind, what's going on.

It's hard to wake up and grind every single day without any breaks.

It's hard to go through your seasons.

For me, I want to work really, really hard Monday to Friday and then not have to work on the weekends.

But sometimes, like last weekend, I was down to Fort Lauderdale and I worked all weekend.

I had no break and feel good, feel fine.

Then I also need to have sometimes the year my vacations.

I get to go on an RV every year for four-ish weeks to still do work and things like that every morning, but that's my break.

And you need to know what your life needs to look like.

There needs to be some level of control around your schedule.

And that's on a call it micro, daily, very specific.

What am I going to control?

What am I going to allow into my day and out of my day versus the kind of macro, bigger level?

What is this month and this year going to look like?

What are my goals?

If you're in that grind season, then like go grind.

If you're tired, suck it up.

But make sure you don't get to that burnout point where you can't make it back.

So I think you need to understand and be able to to listen to your body, but you need to be able to control your schedule.

Do the things you need to do.

Do the things you want to be able to do.

And give yourself those rewards.

Because if you don't get them, we're creatures of habit.

We want to work to go get something.

We want to feel good.

We want those hormone releases that make us smile.

Allow yourself to get those pieces in the right doses.

That way you're not impeding on your ability to get the things done.

Love that, man.

And so true.

Cause I took vacations off for five years and I forgot how good it felt to be on one almost.

And I would have panic attacks and I was just locked up in my room for so many years, you know?

Yeah, it's hard.

And you might have had to grind to get to a certain position, which makes sense, but the panic attacks and all the things like that changes your life.

Every year I go on a backpacking trip for three to four nights, no internet, sleeping under the stars in a tent, carrying all my food, all my water, all the things on my back.

And I'm completely disconnected except with the friends that I go with.

And that is a really big mental recharge for me.

Physically, I'm done, like exhausted by the time I'm back, but mentally, I feel amazing because I'm disconnected.

Even if I wanted to work, I can't work.

Yeah, something powerful about being in nature, right?

Yeah.

Love that.

Steve, where can people find you, man, and learn about what you're up to?

So the best way to find me is going to be on Instagram or Facebook.

And just search my name, Stephen, S-T-E-P-H-E-N, Copchaw, K-O-P-S-H-A-W.

Those are my handles.

Name is on there, and you'll find me the easiest.

Love it.

We'll link it below.

Thanks for coming on, man.

Thanks for having me.

Yep.

Thanks for watching.

Guys, as always, see you tomorrow.