Debating Gary the Numbers Guy, Cheating and Why Astrology is BS | Michael Sartain DSH #238

You believe men and women can be friends?

Absolutely, yeah.

Most people advise not to do that.

98% of men cannot be friends with women because if they try, they're going to act like simps.

And when they act like simps, they get put into the friend zone.

That is death sentence.

That is death on one.

That is the worst possible situation.

I recommend men friend zone women.

Ladies and gentlemen, we're back on the digital social hour.

I got a recurring guest.

Doesn't happen often.

Michael Sartain is back in the building.

how's it going what's going on man it's good to see you

listen man I got in a lot of trouble for the stuff I said on your previous episode so I did something right yeah man how have you been feeling lately I mean things are getting crazy with fresh and fit getting demonetized I mean are you nervous at all with that no I don't uh I love those guys but I my content is nothing like theirs so it's not very it's like it's similar in that we we come to similar conclusions, but I would never, some of the words they use and some of the ways that they're a little bit judgmental, you're never going to see that on my show.

My show is basically statistics.

So for instance, they might have some people on their show use pejoratives against women or whatever, but for me, I'm going to say something like something to the effect of like 83% of the time when a woman cheats on her partner, she's going to fall in love with her affair partner, whereas only 29% of the time a man will.

That means men cheat for a different reason than women do.

Those are statistical studies, right?

The number one correlation between a woman cheating and a marriage is how many sexual partners she had before she got married.

There's science behind that.

Read Dr.

David Buss's books.

When I say that, though, it makes people angry, but you're not going to cancel me for that because what I just said is documented by the most, the foremost evolutionary psychologist on the planet.

So I think that's kind of where we differ, is that I just stick to the science and I try to keep my opinion out of it.

So I'm not super worried about it.

I do make some people mad, though, I will tell you that.

I actually make people more mad because I substantiate every single thing I say.

I think that makes people more angry because when you're entrenched in your own position and I haven't really given you, because you're not arguing against my position, you're arguing against statistics and science.

It makes people very angry.

It's like, well, I can find a survey that'll say anything.

Ah, you can't.

80% of divorces are initiated by women.

You can't find a survey that says 80% of divorces are initiated by men.

You can't.

You can try as much as you want, but you really can't.

So I think it's one of these things where it's like, they want to believe science when it helps them and not when it doesn't.

Absolutely.

One of your interesting takes I thought was you believe men and women can be friends.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Most people advise not to do that.

Well, most people in the red pill space and most people in pickup would advise that.

Most guys who are really, really, really, really good with women have no problem being friends with them.

In fact, it's to the point where like if you ever met like a a really high-end club promoter or a guy who owns a nightclub or a strip club or some just has a job, maybe even a male nurse who's like on a floor with just nothing but fint women, there, not only are they able to be friends with women, the concept doesn't even, of not being friends with women, doesn't even come into their mind, right?

And the guys who are, so you know, I think there was a point in my life, probably 2007, when I was hanging out with these

guys in the pickup community.

I knew Mystery, Matt Ador, all these guys, Neil Strauss.

And then I would also hang out with,

and by the way, Mystery is not hardcore and can't be friends with women.

And then I would would hang out with these club promoters and the club promoters would always be like have tons of female friends so they'd have their girlfriend and then they'd have like two or three girls they'd have threesomes with and then they'd have like 40 or 50 girls that would show up to their birthday party that they may or may not have had sex with before and then so and i watched it and i was like it was clear that they were friends like legitimately they treated them like family there's a great book it's called uh a very important people by ashley mears and it talks about how these these guys were just surrounded by women all the time they call the the the girls they would say that they're friends so what happens is how comfortable are you being around attractive women and do you you like being around them for the sake of being around them?

And if you do, you can be friends with them.

Now, here's where the rubber meets the road.

98% of men cannot be friends with women because if they try, they're going to act like simps.

And when they act like simps, they get put into the friend zone.

That is death sentence.

That is death con one.

That is the worst possible situation.

I recommend men friend zone women.

I recommend you got your main girl and then like maybe some side girls that you see if you, if your girl's comfortable with that, right?

Maybe you're polygynous or whatever.

And then on the side, you have other women that you're friends with that are, like, so for instance, Lindsay Palace is a great example.

If Lindsay Palace has a boyfriend and she's got 10 million followers on IG, how stupid would it be for me to go hit on her or Emily Sears or Abigail Ratchford or Kinley Myers or whoever, if they're in a relationship, for me to try to, one, ruin their relationship and two, be in the situation where they can help my business.

They're awesome friends to have.

They're super interesting people.

I can get them on my podcast.

They can they help me in so many different ways.

And so I'm going to ruin that because it's like, no, bro, blow me or blow me out.

Like what this stupid idiot PUA say that's the that's the reason why I say that so the reality is if you just got out of prison for 10 years or if you've been in the military and on a 15-month deployment and you come back and you're desperate for women no, you can't be friends with women For guys who have abundance with women They have no trouble being friends with women in fact It's not even a debate if I were to sit there and talk to like Again like the guy who runs the stage at say Omnia or Hakasan or whatever he I promise you he's friends with women and and Bilzerian had two girls What's it Masha Diddok and what's the other girl's name Bianca Gezi who were actually sourcing women and like he wasn't sleeping with them.

They were helping him find girls to come to his house.

Wow.

But people don't grasp that idea, right?

Affiliate marketing makes sense to people, but having females bring you other females somehow is like outside the realm of the reality.

Wow.

So you mentioned relationships earlier.

If a girl has a boyfriend, is that girl off limits for you?

If a girl, yeah, for me, yeah, it would be.

I think there was definitely a point in my 20s where I didn't care about anything.

Most guys have a period in their life where it was like, maybe just out of college, where it's like, you know, have sex with as many attractive women as possible do anything I can so go to bar every night don't care if she's a Republican or Democrat don't care if she has a good relationship with her family don't care what her body count is just trying to hook up with hot women as much as possible guys go through that I'm 45 I am not in that period in my life anymore so the idea of me ruining someone else's relationship just because I happen to have higher status or because I'm on stage at some nightclub when she's doing

is so lowbrow to me something I'm not interested in yeah so I would recommend it I um I just you know the the idea of like um yeah, you see this kind of stuff all the time.

So yeah, if a girl has a boyfriend, I would definitely, I would definitely try to stay away.

Now, that being said, you know, you've lived here for a while.

I'm sure you have friends if you go out.

Girls will come here and swear up and down they don't have a boyfriend.

It's Vegas.

It's true.

As soon as they get here, they will sweat, ring comes off, sweat, leave the morals with your baggage, but you know, back at the hotel, they'll swear they don't have a boyfriend.

And then you find out later and it's just like, I mean, who do you blame in that case?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Do you believe it's easier to be a man or a woman?

I believe that biologically it's easier to be a man.

I think societally right now it's probably easier to be a woman.

I mean

what I mean by that is in society when you look at things like for instance alimony 90% of alimony 97% of alimony is paid from men to women.

84% of the time

primary child custody goes from the woman to the man.

I think when you look at a situation like if there's a domestic dispute, men are going to jail.

It's the women that are not going to jail.

In those kind of cases,

I think women do have it well.

And also there's, when it comes to education, 68% of college graduates are now women.

You are more likely to,

I think you're something like six times more likely to get a master's degree if you're an African-American woman than if you're an African-American man now.

We're finding situations where the suicide rate for men over 40 who've been divorced is nine times higher than

the average, than the

national average.

We're also finding that men who have been zeroed out

have serious, serious emotional problems that happen to them.

And then there's a couple other studies that happen with divorce.

80% of divorces are initiated by women because I feel like they're being incentivized to divorce men through propaganda.

Again, that's the only part that's in my opinion.

Everything else I just said was statistic.

And so I do think it is easier now to be a woman.

I do societally, biologically, I think it's easier to be a man, and it will always be easier to be a man because there's a few things.

Obviously, we have advantages when it comes to strength and endurance,

power, physical durability.

But I also think we have advantages when it comes to, as a man, I have hundreds of ways to attract women.

And as a woman, I don't have hundreds of ways to attract men.

I have maybe, maybe as many as four, probably one way to attract men.

So, and if I don't have that one way, like he just doesn't find me physically attractive if you're a woman, then you don't really have a second way to go around.

The thing is, most men right now are so incredibly desperate.

26% of men under the age of 30 are virgins, I think, at this point.

33% of men under the age of 30 have had zerosexual partners in the last year.

Just outrageous numbers like this.

So when you get to these numbers, you start to see societally, it's easier to be a woman.

You have more access to men when it comes to

online.

You have more access to men.

And also, you can change your appearance using FaceApp, FaceTune.

You have access to different ways to make money when it comes to like

Patreon, stuff like that.

And then, you know, those things are still available to women.

And they don't even have to be fantastically attractive women either.

You know, pretty average women can make money doing that.

So I do think societally, because of education, there are more female military pilots than there are male kindergarten teachers right now.

5% of psychologists under the age of 30 are men.

5%.

Let me say that one more time.

5% of psychologists under the age of 30 are men.

That means in the future,

psychology will be just like

similar to how nursing and primary education is.

It'll be completely dominated by women.

So I do think there are these opportunities that that's not necessarily a bad thing but there's necessity there's um opportunities that have been opened to women to where i do think societally it's easier to be a woman but as a man you just have more there are more branches of opportunity open to you to be successful financially and to be successful uh in relationships that makes sense do you feel like social media and dating apps have been a net positive for the dating culture or do you think yeah so so when it comes to women so there's three have you ever heard this before there's three genders no high status men low status men and women those are the three genders high status men and low status men have nothing to do with each other.

Social media has absolutely benefited high status men, meaning men who can show relevancy, competency, or access to scarce resources.

Those men have outrageous numbers of women coming after them.

I'll tell you right now, from the time I was 22 to the time I'm 45 now,

the way one of the issues that happens, and a lot of guys who are in their early 20s don't realize this, but like my competition, I have a girlfriend now, but my competition for men are guys that look like Takashi6ix9ine, Machine Gun Kelly, and, you know, Post Malone, like lots of tattoos on face, like lots of coping going on,

no ability to fight, no ability to, no athleticism whatsoever.

And in my, you know, when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s, that just wasn't what a mask, that wasn't a masculine athletic, attractive archetype for women that isn't attractive for them now.

And so I feel like I don't really have much competition when it comes to like competing for women now.

And most of the guys that I know that are in their late 30s, early 40s, we feel the same way.

I feel like the guys that are younger just aren't very good at being masculine because they're not not taught to, or they don't have the instruction manual on how to do that.

And so while the rest of the world may be telling men to not be masculine or calling their traits toxic, the reality is if you stick with those traits, it's still way more attractive to women.

So I think

men who are higher earners, men who are physically attractive, men who are incredibly talented, men who have some sort of skill set, some level of competency, some access to scarce resources.

And this could be just the guy who hands out the artist's wristbands over at Excess, right?

Just as simple as something as small as that.

The guy, the VIP host who does all the girl comps over at Omnia, just simple as that.

Just small access to scarce resources.

Those guys, social media has absolutely benefited.

Other men, it's destroyed their lives because what's happened is

you have a guy, let's say he's an eight.

He's a lawyer who lives in Wichita, Kansas, and you have a girl.

Let's say she's an eight.

I don't mean by physical attractiveness.

I mean just stratifying them as far as their, you know, their market value in the dating market.

Okay.

You have an eight guy and eight girl.

They both live in Wichita.

The difference is the guy in Wichita would normally have married the girl in Wichita, but but now the girl in Wichita is being flown out to LA to go be at the Ignite party, the Maxim party, the Playboy Mansion.

She's going to

New York Fashion Week.

She's going to swim week, stuff like that.

And now she ends up like maybe or maybe not having sex with a celebrity or some rich guy or something like that.

And so now the eight guy is not dating the eight girl in Wichita anymore.

He's going for a seven, a six, a five, a four.

And so he, the average guy is now being decimated by the high status man.

And so what you're finding now is that the middle class for men is sort of disappearing because of social media.

There is no average social media.

There's incredible social media or you're garbage.

That's it.

And it sucks.

It really does suck.

Like

with your stuff, like you're posting your podcast, right?

Well, that shows competency and relevancy.

You have relevant guests on and you're competent at doing a podcast.

And it also shows like, I know that if I were to message you on Instagram, even before we obviously message, but even before so, I know you know how to use your Instagram.

I know you know how to post a picture.

Do you know how many men just don't even know how to do that?

post?

You'd be walk around Walmart sometime and then ask yourself, who's these men?

And then ask, like, ask a guy who's stocking the shelves at Walmart.

He's like, do you have an Instagram account?

Do you have a Twitter?

Do you have anything?

They're like, no, we don't have anything.

You're just going to find that it's just like all social media has done is bifurcated men into two,

it's, it's increased the bifurcation, meaning it's made one species of high status men and another species of low status men.

And I would say the split is like 84, 16.

Like 16% of men would be above that status poverty line, and then the other 84% would be below it.

I just like legitimately, I have clients come to me all the time.

They've been divorced, and then getting them back in the dating market is so much harder now because on Tinder but Tinder Bumble and Hinge, I believe, are garbage.

There's like five times as many men as women on there.

Anytime you see an attractive woman, a woman on Tinder Bumble or Hinge, they are generally trying to get you to go down their funnel to join their

or their.

And 80% of men, or the top 20% of men on Tinder, Bumble, and Hinge are getting 83% of of the right swipes.

Meaning, Tinder Bumble and Hinge, just like social media, is just reserved for a small group of men up the top getting all the sex and then all the men at the bottom, the bottom 80% getting next to nothing.

That's crazy.

I didn't know it was scoot like that.

I've seen you on quite a few debates.

You're really good at debating.

Who stands out to you as your toughest opponent so far?

Toughest opponent?

I don't know.

So the thing is, the answer is the most obstinate opponent, meaning like I'm winning, but like he's, it's like, you know, when.

he put up a good fight, I guess it's not that he even put up a good fight, he just yelled louder and just didn't concede any points was probably Zirka.

Like it was one of these things where like Zirka didn't make sense in what he was saying, and his audience even started turning on him, but he just yelled so loud.

It was so draining having to yell with a guy that loud to match his energy, to match his energy, it really was.

And I like John a lot, but it was just crazy trying to match his energy the whole time.

Like he just would turn it up and I was fighting him.

My favorite person to debate was Destiny because he does a lot of research and he, and a lot of people say he doesn't argue in good faith.

I think Destiny has some opinions that are wrong about certain things, but I think he does, I think he's so quick-witted.

I actually try to learn from some of the stuff that he does.

Oh, yeah.

And the other thing is like the most researched guy, and I've never debated him because he's one of my best friends is Rolo.

Like Rolo does a ton of research.

It's so funny to me when people think that Rolo doesn't do a ton of research, when he just like, he spouts off the mouth out of like misogynistic belief or whatever he people think he has.

It's nonsense.

No one does more research than this man.

I swear to God, every day I just get evolutionary psychology posts sent to me from him and a book that he recommends.

This man reads, he's the only person I know who reads more than me.

Wow.

And so, yeah, like Rollo, I think, is probably the most based guy, but Rolo's job is he's an author.

And I am a classically trained debater from college and high school.

And so, like, I enjoy doing debates, you know, a lot.

One of the funny things that I was talking to a friend of mine, if you had a guy, if you had three PhDs in astrophysics over here and you had three flat earthers next to them and they were doing a debate, the flat earthers would win every single time.

Even though the physicists are completely correct in what they believe, the flat earthers are better debaters and they just ignore science.

Whereas the physicists are, they're bound by science and truth.

So it actually limits what they can do and they're not trained as debaters because they're PhDs.

So it's one of these things.

I was always wondering, like, how is this flat earth thing like catching steam?

Because it's obviously the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

And you start to realize, well, the reason why is because

a small group of people who become very good debater.

And by the way, I know you had had your partner say this oh we did land on the moon i can prove we landed on the moon and if you had somebody come on here to debate me if we land on the moon i'll show you the proofs of how we landed on the moon and they won't know any of them and it because the reason why is they only research one side of the story they never research both um you know when it comes to retro reflectors and 600,000 people working on Gemini and Apollo and stuff like that.

It's very easy to prove that we landed on the moon.

But it's one of these situations where they only look at one side.

And the other side is so convincing because

they're so flashy and they make really good YouTube posts.

Whereas the people who put us on the moon, a lot of them have passed away and they're PhDs.

They're not there to debate or be on TikTok.

Right.

Dang, I didn't know you debated in high school and college.

Yeah.

That makes a lot of sense.

You got that advantage.

Were you like scholarship?

No, I did moot court.

I was a District 12 foray

Lincoln Douglas debate champion.

Man, what was that?

1995?

Something like that?

Yeah, it was a long time ago.

But I just enjoyed doing it because you try to not make things personal.

But of course, when you get into debates, sometimes with some of these people, it gets things personal.

And the other question for me, the thing I always have to to go to into with the debates is like, is this helping my business?

Right.

Alex Ramosi has a great saying.

He's like, do the work.

I get up and I do the work.

I was like, I don't care about ice baths.

I don't make my bed.

I just do the work.

Sometimes I have to question with me getting drug into debates about, you know, flat earth or holocaust deniers or whatever.

Like, is it worth me getting into these debates?

Because it's like, it's not helping my business.

So it's one of these things where I'm good at it, but I probably should.

So the debates that I've been getting into more is cold approach versus social circle.

Can women and men be friends?

Because these things actually affect my business.

Yeah.

It seemed like your debate with Gary the Numbers guy got kind of personal.

Yeah, I mean, like the thing, the thing with Gary, and I'll just, listen, I'm going to break Kayfabe here.

Gary will be super nice to you.

Then he'll come on there and he'll make things a little bit personal and he'll take jabs at you that are just like ridiculous.

If he gets, he'll get 55 things in a row wrong.

He'll get one thing right and then he'll just claim total victory.

Then he'll go on Twitter and smash you and then he'll be like, hey, do you want to go to dinner later?

Like that's Gary.

And like, because of that, after a while, like, after I figured out that's how Gary is, I don't dislike it anymore.

I kind of, I have some respect for him.

Like, I lost my Twitter and he wanted to help me as soon as I got a new one back.

So he's a nice guy, but like he'll, he, like, he literally thinks that this is.

Ultimate Warrior versus Hulk Hogan.

And so like for me, I'm debating actual science.

And for him, he's like trying to go viral on Twitter.

And I get it.

Like, I'm not, I'm not saying I'm not guilty of that.

I'm definitely trying to go viral on Twitter too, I guess.

But it's just one of these things where, you know, he does that kind of stuff.

I mean, getting into the debate about numerology, numerology just isn't true.

Like I can show you it's not true.

Just because a couple of billionaires were born on the same day doesn't mean anything.

Right.

And it's like, it's so funny because it's like if you're, if what you, if your traits don't match up with his numerology ideas, then he starts saying, yeah, but you're, but you have a one and a three on your shirt.

And if you add one and three together, that's four.

And if you multiply four times four, that's 16.

So that means your life passes 16.

And like somehow they come to these numbers.

And it's just so crazy when you see it.

And then if you do any, any reading on like cognitive bias, you can quickly like see what he's doing.

He's basically, if you've ever seen a humanist or mental, I'm sorry, a mentalist, if you've seen a mentalist, he basically does what a mentalist does, but he does it with

astrology and numerology.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

That makes a lot of sense.

Yeah.

And you also proved astrology was BS too, right?

I mean, I don't have to prove astrology is BS.

There's several studies where you just take people who are correlated based on their astrological signs and see if they're more likely to get divorced, more likely to get more married, more likely to have sex with each other, more likely to go on a first date, more likely to go on a second date, any correlation you want, and you find the correlation is absolutely, positively, completely, undeniably zero.

There's no correlation between people's income and what their astrology sign is.

There's no correlation between what, if they're born in the year of the rat, the year of the monkey, the year of the snake, whatever.

There's no correlation.

All you'd have to do is take a population level survey and you'd be able to see 1% correlation.

When I say guys, there's not even 1% correlation between any of these things.

Astrology has been totally debunked.

But the thing is, it's been debunked for over 100 years and people still want to, it just, it feels fun to be part of a group, right?

When I watch professional wrestling, wrestling, I love to use this example.

When I'm watching John Wick, I know that's actually Keanu Reeves and he's not really people.

And when I watch professional wrestling, I know that Ultimate Warrior and Hulk Hogan are actually friends offstage, and they probably buy steroids from the same guy and probably swap wives.

Like they're actually friends offstage.

The problem with numerology and astrology is that these people are pretending like this fake thing is actually real when it's fake.

You know, that's the issue.

I know the Dallas Cowboys, I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan.

I know the Dallas Cowboys don't give a f ⁇ about me.

They don't know who I am.

I know I'm just like cheering for cloth.

I happen to be from Dallas and I like the Cowboys, but I'm aware of the story I'm telling myself and I'm aware of the illusion.

Whereas people in numerology and astrology, they are not aware of the illusion that they're telling me.

By the way, I'll say the same thing.

I don't believe in technical analysis or fundamental analysis.

There's science to show that that isn't real either.

There's stuff like that where people have a hard time believing and they get upset.

And so that's the issue.

It's like, if you disagree with me, then we can have a disagreement.

I never take it personally, but when I use science to have these debates, people get furious with me.

And that's when I know I'm doing something right.

In the case of flat earth earth or numerology, there's like nothing really to debate because there's no, there's nothing to substantiate what they believe.

So I'm like debating against like a cloud or like a puff of air.

If that makes, does that make sense?

There's no proof or facts.

If you and I wanted to get in a debate about what the highest tax bracket should be for the rich, right?

Should it be 36%, 39%?

We could have a debate.

We wouldn't take it personally.

You could probably come up with some great ideas.

I could come up with some great ideas.

And at the end, the audience could decide.

When you're debating things like, is gravity real?

Like, what the f am I supposed to do?

Yeah.

Gravity is it real, bro?

For real?

That's what we're debating.

Like, I don't know where to start.

You understand what I'm saying?

Yeah.

It's like your girlfriend, like your girlfriend wakes up and she had a dream that you were cheating on her.

And then she starts hitting you when she wakes up and you're like, it was a dream.

I didn't actually cheat on you, but she's still mad at you.

How do you have that discussion?

Like, you didn't even do anything wrong.

Like, she's not even starting from a place.

Like, what do you do there?

That's what it feels like for me with some of these debates.

Too far-fetched.

Yeah, that was fun, man.

We're definitely going to have to do a part three.

Anything you want to close off with?

No, man.

Listen, if you guys are interested in a science-based or evidence-based look on how to build a network, we use the study of evolutionary psychology and other studies when it comes to economics.

And definitely, like we, we have the only evidence-based course in the world when it comes to networking, when it comes to

leadership, and when it comes to the ability to bring 100 or 200 girls to a party.

That's another thing we teach.

We talked about last week, right?

Yeah, we did that.

We did that for the, and if you guys want actual proof, it's like he didn't bring 100 girls to a party.

Please go check my Instagram right now and take a look at accent or basic toilet.

We brought 300 girls to on the record to raise money for animal rescue.

And then also, we had 70 girls compete two weeks ago at the world's biggest bikini competition, which my me and my guys did all the recruiting for.

And we teach you how to do that.

So that's why I do my course.

It's called Men of Action Mentoring.

You can check me out at Michael Sartan on Instagram.

It's the easiest way to find me.

Awesome.

Thanks for coming on, Michael.

Thanks for watching, guys.

See you next time.

Appreciate it.