Dr Gabrielle Lyon On American Food Pyamid, Meats Causing Cancer & Ideal Body Fat % | DSH #148

I want to talk about some food and health myths I see on social media.

The one that really scared me for a while was the red meat one, how it causes cancer.

But now there's been studies that that was false.

Correct.

Red meat does not cause cancer.

Let's go.

A good physician recognizes patterns of disease.

But an effective physician recognizes patterns of people.

Well, the food pyramid has been the harshest social experiment that we have.

When When the food pyramid came into play,

obesity skyrocketed.

Wow.

All right, guys, welcome back to the show.

We're here on the digital social hour.

I got a very inspiring guest for you guys today.

Hopefully, we'll change your opinions on health.

Dr.

Gabrielle Lyon.

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Absolutely.

You have a very powerful message.

I must say, I haven't seen anyone else really preaching what you preach.

So I'd just like to thank you for that.

Oh, absolutely.

I think together we can change the narrative of health and wellness.

Yeah.

Because as it is right now, we haven't been doing a good job.

Absolutely.

So, what are sort of your key points that you try to stress?

Yeah, well, first of all, we've been trying to fight this obesity epidemic for the last 50 years.

And as you can see, for the last 50 years, not only have we gotten fatter, sicker, but we haven't gotten anywhere.

And one has to think: is it because the challenge is too big, or is it because that we're asking the wrong question?

And when you change the paradigm of the question, then the results should be different.

So right now, we've been focused on obesity, what we have to lose, diseases like cardiovascular disease, Alzheimer's disease, even diabetes as the problem.

But I believe that those are symptoms of unhealthy muscle.

That these diseases begin in skeletal muscle decades before.

So essentially, we're not overfat, we're under-muscled.

Wow.

And by focusing on skeletal muscle as this organ of longevity, focusing on what we have to gain versus what we have to lose, then we can break through some of these old limiting beliefs.

Yeah, I've seen you talk about the importance of the skeletal muscle, right?

And it's 40% of the body or something.

Yeah, 40% of the body.

Although for you, it might be more.

So, what causes unhealthy muscle?

What does that look like?

Yeah.

Have you ever had a fillet

yeah a steak a steak fillet and it's really lean when you go tons of steakhouses here in vegas right and have you ever had a ribeye yeah fatty fatty has connective tissue infiltrated in that that's what unhealthy muscle looks like

versus healthy skeletal muscle is lean and does not have a ton of connective tissue it is

like just looks like a fillet.

Got it.

And what happens is, is when we're young and there's information and data that's come out of Yale, and this was really Hallmark, was that healthy 18-year-old, but sedentary individuals can show signs of skeletal muscle insulin resistance before

you get disease.

Now, why am I talking about insulin resistance?

Insulin is a peptide hormone released from the pancreas, and it moves glucose out of the bloodstream.

into tissues.

The primary site for glucose disposal, and by the way, glucose at high levels is toxic.

That's the definition of diabetes.

So you need to move glucose out of the bloodstream into tissues.

The primary site for that disposal is skeletal muscle.

Interesting.

And if you do not address the health of skeletal muscle, then it's just like a marbled steak.

So if you were going

to go on vacation, and let's say you're going on vacation for four days, but you pack for 30 days, and your muscle is a suitcase.

If your muscle is the suitcase and you're overpacking it, ultimately it runs out of room.

Right.

And blood glucose builds up, fatty acids build up, might see elevations in insulin, triglycerides, all things that eventually cause metabolic disease.

But we've been trying to fix metabolic disease from a symptom standpoint

of addressing body fat.

Right.

That's not the core issue.

And I feel like that's sort of the Western medicine philosophy in general.

Decade after decade after decade.

And now it's really starting to compile, right?

Right.

Yeah.

And then also the standard American diet, like the food pyramid.

What do you think of that?

You're probably not a fan of that right now.

Well, the food pyramid has been the harshest social experiment that we have.

When the food pyramid came into play,

obesity skyrocketed.

Wow.

Yeah.

And you'd think they would have changed it or something by now.

I mean, they have.

They moved to my plate, which, again, the idea is how do we take nutrition, which is very are you someone that doesn't have life insurance why leave anything up to chance in a worst case scenario luckily policy genius makes finding the right policy simple and their team of licensed experts are on hand to help you through it life insurance gives your family a safety net that they can cover expenses with so they don't have to worry about money while getting back on their feet i've had friends and family members that have passed away without life insurance it's definitely left us with financial instabilities.

Even if you already have a policy, it may not offer enough protection for your family's needs and it may not follow you if you leave your job.

With Policy Genius, you can find life insurance policies that start at just $2.92 per year for $1 million of coverage.

Some options offer same-day approval and avoid unnecessary medical exams.

Policy Genius knows how valuable your time is.

Their technology makes it easy to compare life insurance quotes from America's top insurance in just a few clicks to find your lowest price.

Policy Genius has licensed award-winning agents who can help you find the best fit for your needs.

They work for you, not the insurance companies.

They don't have an incentive to recommend one insurer over another so you can trust their guidance.

Policy Genius is for parents, caregivers, and anyone else who has people who depend on them.

They simplify the process of getting life insurance so you can protect the people you love.

They got thousands of five-star reviews on Google and TrustPilot.

Your loved ones deserve a financial safety net.

You deserve a smarter way to find and buy it.

Head to policygenius.com/slash 50dsh or click the link in the description to get a free life insurance quote and see how much you could save.

That's policygenius.com slash 50 DSH.

Very personal and provide guidelines so that individuals can execute on those guidelines.

And it becomes, it's a very, it's a challenge.

It's a challenge because you have a different diet than I have.

Your producer has a different diet.

And so how do we make sense and put guidelines that

can kind of meet everyone's minimum need?

Right.

Yeah, there's no one fit all diet, right?

I agree.

And I have to say that there are strong scientific principles that we should follow.

For example, dietary protein as a primary component of a nutritional plan is key.

Right.

And the evidence supports that.

Dietary protein, again, we talk about macronutrients.

We talk about proteins, carbohydrates, and fats as if they're one thing.

But protein is made up of 20 different amino acids, nine of which are essential.

Each of those essential amino acids are individual nutrients that have diverse biological roles.

So the needs of those amino acids change as we age.

Wow.

And we need more and different kinds.

Versus you could have a carbohydrate intake the same.

How old are you now?

26.

26?

At 36, you could probably have the same carbohydrate intake.

Got it.

And then at 56, you could probably have the same carbohydrate intake.

But if you have the same protein intake and that protein intake is insufficient, your body will change and it can become sarcopenic.

We've all seen aging parents, aging grandparents.

Those changes are preventable.

And if we don't evolve our way of eating and thinking about nutrition and training as we age and understand that the influx of information is really symptom-based as opposed to thinking about optimal health, then we don't have a chance.

Wow.

That's such a simple fix to just increase your protein every few years, but people don't even know that.

Right.

And part of the problem is because the narrative against protein is so strong.

And you and I were talking off camera.

It's very emotional.

Yeah.

But nutrition doesn't need to be emotional.

It can be empiric.

It can be based on data.

And when we prioritize for dietary protein, metabolic things fall into place.

Obviously, calories matter,

but dietary protein and the current recommendations are...

First of all, based on nitrogen balance studies.

So essentially what that means is

they measure nitrogen and they measure nitrogen in your sweat, in your feces, in your urine.

And that came from agricultural data, from animals.

What they were trying to do is figuring out how to feed an animal with the lowest amount of cost, that will be enough protein for them to grow,

but also be cost effective.

Right.

It all comes down to money at the end of the day with these big companies.

But that doesn't mean that that's for optimal health.

Right.

So the RDA RDA is 0.37 grams per pound.

So if you're 115 pounds, that's about 45 grams of protein.

Got it.

The minimum to prevent deficiencies.

54 grams if you're 117 pounds?

45.

Oh, 45.

So if you're 115 pounds and the recommendation is 0.37 grams per pound, which is nothing,

that would be 45 grams of protein.

So you're saying that's enough?

Because I've heard it's one pound per every that would be ideal.

Got it.

But the guidelines, so the general public will will look at the rda and go well that's the optimal intake

that's archaic those guidelines haven't been updated since 1968 wow

and you just think about even the digital happy hour of how fast things are changing yeah and we haven't even updated these nutritional guidelines since the 60s yeah that's a long time and the ideal percentage of protein or the ideal amount of protein is double the rda so around 0.7 exactly 0.7 to one gram per pound ideal body weight.

Yeah.

And then, in terms of different proteins, there's so many types, right?

Cajun, plant, whey.

Have you seen any compelling studies on any of those, like the best ones?

All the time.

And again, this is highly emotional for people.

And when we talk about the quality of protein, it is a purely biological number.

High-quality proteins are proteins that are high in the essential amino acids.

Those come from animal-based products like beef, chicken, whey protein, eggs, dairy.

Low-quality proteins, again, based on biological numbers of essential amino acids, are things like soy, corn, wheat.

And it certainly is not an emotional conversation when we talk about the quality.

The next thing that I want to point out is it's not just about the protein.

So they're not interchangeable.

When we talk about dietary protein, you have to think about the food matrix.

A beef burger, for example, a lean meat would have creatine, carnitine, taurine, and serine, these low molecular weight molecules.

B12, zinc, versus a plant might have polyphenols or other things that are not in high amounts in animal products.

They're not interchangeable from the nutrient standpoint.

Even if you were to be able to get protein high enough from a plant-based source, I think it's prudent to incorporate both.

Yeah, I've tried plant.

It just never does a trick for me for some reason.

I feel different on it.

And that could be because, again, they're not interchangeable.

Yeah.

Because of those low molecular weight molecules.

It's just not an interchangeable.

Yeah.

You could do, you could look at

protein from beef and then a protein source like tofu.

While the protein might be the same, clearly it's not the same substance.

Right.

And it's the food matrix that really matters, that nutrient density.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Speaking of like vegetables, I'm seeing seeing this kind of health epidemic in India because there's a lot of vegans, vegetarians over there.

Have you seen that?

I've seen it from a metabolic perspective.

There's a lot of metabolic disease.

Yeah.

Is that because they're not eating, you know, meat, basically?

There is, I think there's a predisposition, depending on where someone is.

There may be genetic predispositions.

I can't say for certain, but a lower protein diet or a lower protein quality diet definitely has metabolic implications.

Wow.

And it certainly has metabolic implications on the health of skeletal muscle.

Interesting.

Because the goal is, again, it's not about what we have to lose.

It's not about obesity.

It's about this midlife muscle crisis.

And how do we maintain, for example, you are very lean.

The goal for you might not be

that you ever have to worry about body fat.

But what you will have to worry about is maintaining the health of your skeletal muscle because that's what you have to lose.

Yeah.

And that comes from high-quality protein sources.

It comes, well, because you're young, the data would support that you could probably maintain that tissue on plant-based proteins.

But the question becomes over time.

Right.

What does that look like, not just in the acute period, but over time?

And over time, as you age, I would say it's not optimal.

Right.

And is the damage to the skeletal muscle reversible?

Oh, it is?

Yeah.

So you can fully recover?

You can recover, but what rides along with muscle is bone and bone density.

And bone density comes from high-quality proteins and dairy

and then obviously other nutrients, but

you have to build and maintain bone density over time.

Got it.

Bone density.

And that's through just vitamins, right?

It's through exercise and high-quality protein, calcium, vitamin D, K2.

Yeah.

So are you taking supplements?

What are your thoughts on supplements?

I think supplements can be great

for women that are at risk for osteoporosis.

Those women, or if a woman is not menstruating,

I would definitely recommend a bone supplement.

But you can get a lot of your food through, or a lot of your nutrients through food.

And that's the ultimate goal.

Yeah, I try to be as natural as possible.

I went on a weird phase where I was taking like 40 supplements a day, and it just didn't happen.

Who has time for that?

You know, Brian Johnson?

Which Brian?

Yes.

Yeah, so he takes like 100 a day.

So I went on a site, I bought like half of them, and I'm like, dude, like, my body hurts.

Like, this is too much.

So I cut back heavy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now I'm down to maybe five, ten.

I think a handful of supplementation is amazing, but the majority, you know, it's as long as it's very targeted.

Yeah, absolutely.

What have you seen surrounding inflammation?

I keep seeing mixed things about it, if it's good, if it's bad, but what have you seen with it?

Well, the question becomes: there's a few things when we unpack inflammation, is

what is the cause of inflammation?

Essentially, acute exercise could be

inflammation-provoking, but overall, because skeletal muscle is an endocrine organ, it is anti-inflammatory.

So, when you contract skeletal muscle, it releases myokines.

Myokines are hormones that spread throughout the body that interact with bone, that interact with the brain, that interact with your liver, that interact with the immune system.

When you contract skeletal muscle, it releases the most famous myokin is interleukin-6.

And interleukin-6 has a different effect on tissues than interleukin-6, which would be called a cytokine,

when it is released from macrophages or cells of the immune system.

There was a whole big thing about that cytokine storm, and that's a highly inflammatory process.

Well, skeletal muscle, contracting skeletal muscle as an endocrine organ, also releases myokines, and that has a counterbalancing effect.

Inflammation allows the body to mount a response, and that can be positive, but chronic inflammation over time, like when an individual is obese or fighting some kind of disease, then the body can definitely become dysregulated.

Wow, that's scary.

And with these diseases, a lot of them are caused from diet, right?

Are they caused from diet?

Yes.

And I would say that the biggest influence that

anyone has is the health of skeletal muscle.

Does diet play a role in inflammation?

If you have a healthy body composition and you are lean and you have healthy skeletal muscle, then you probably have more leeway with your diet.

But if you are not training and optimizing for skeletal muscle, then

your diet, I mean, diet is always critical.

Yeah.

But you have a lot less flexibility.

Got it.

So you'd say the training is super important, like the weightlifting.

Training probably

trumps diet from a

full homeostatic influence in the body.

Wow.

I've never heard that.

I know.

I would like to think that it's all diet.

Yeah.

But 100% of people eat.

You have to nail diet.

It's the thing that 100% of people do.

People might miss their workouts.

Right.

And 50% of Americans don't even exercise.

That's a lot.

And out of the individuals that exercise, you have maybe 24% are actually meeting the abysmal recommendations,

which is 150 minutes a week.

150 a week.

I think I'm doing that.

And two days a week of resistance training, it's nothing.

That's something I got to work on.

So resistance training, that's with bands, right?

You could start with bands.

You could start with body weight.

And I think the biggest thing, Sean, for your audience is to understand that when we frame the conversation around muscle, if I say muscle, what's the first thing you think?

Just like flexing.

Totally.

Yeah.

And

all your viewers probably think the same thing.

My goal is to change the conversation around muscle from a muscle-centric medicine perspective.

Muscle is not about looking jacked and tan.

That's a positive.

You can look naked.

All of that is positive.

But the reality is the influence of skeletal muscle on overall health and well-being is paramount.

Skeletal muscle is the pinnacle.

It's an organ system, just like the pulmonary system or the cardiovascular system.

Skeletal muscle is an organ system that makes up 40-some percent of the body.

When that system

has pathology, meaning it becomes unhealthy, think about the mass influence that has from a regulation of metabolism, from a regulation of your immune system.

Contracting skeletal muscle releases glutamine.

Glutamine is the food or energy source for white blood cells.

Wow.

Skeletal muscle is so much more.

And really, if we shift the focus away from body fat,

we can become much more empowered because at the core and at the root, skeletal muscle is where we have to focus as our paramount effort.

And it is the only tissue that's under voluntary control.

Wow.

That's super interesting to me because I've had a low white blood cell count my whole life.

I think it's genetic.

That's genetic.

Asian side.

So I never even was told to train my skeletal muscle for that, you know?

Right.

So that's super interesting.

And I think people, they like to see their results visually.

So that's probably why they focus on just their muscle that they could see with their own eyes.

Skeletal muscle, you can't really see the results, right?

Well, I mean, you could look jacked, right?

Yeah.

And again, if we, even if we shift away from the aesthetic component and really appreciate the fact that skeletal muscle has a focal point in medicine,

then perhaps we don't need 40 million people on statins.

And perhaps we don't need

all of the prescriptions that are required now.

What are statins?

Statins are things that HMG-CoA's

inhibitor depends on.

It's a way to lower LDL.

Got it.

Is that a steroid, basically?

It's not.

Oh, the opposite.

Yeah.

Well, statins impact

overall cholesterol and LDL, and they affect.

So typically, if you go to your physician and you have elevated levels of LDL, they'll put you on a statin.

Got it.

And I would argue before we do that, obviously I'm not your physician, maybe,

but you have to address the health of skeletal muscle because skeletal muscle at rest is the prime, you know, it uses fatty acids.

Yeah.

It uses fat for fuel.

Got it.

I want to talk about some food and health myths I see on social media.

The one that really scared me for a while was the red meat one, how it causes cancer.

But now there's been studies that that was false.

Correct.

Red meat does not cause cancer.

Let's go.

And it's interesting.

It just takes a lot of time for information to pick up steam.

It doesn't.

Yeah, they were scaring me, man.

I even gave it up for like a few months, I think, when I saw that.

One would have to take a step back and say, where are the randomized controlled trials?

Where is the quality of evidence?

There was a great set of papers out of Annals of Internal Medicine where they looked at exactly that question.

Do we need to reduce our red meat consumption?

And there was no high-quality evidence to support that.

Wow.

And then the next question one would have to ask is, what would be the mechanism of action?

The claims that they make about red meat are essentially like the claims they make about smoking.

How is this one food that is found in nature that our brains developed eating

as bad for you as smoking?

Right.

How does that make sense?

Doesn't.

It just, it doesn't.

Yeah.

The only thing I could see possibly even being close is the ones that are injected with all those hormones and stuff.

But even that's.

Even that, the question is, does that actually get into the meat?

Into the meat, yeah.

I mean, I try to eat organic.

I don't know if that's even a marketing ploy itself.

No, I mean,

it's not.

Grass-fed organic meats are, you know, great.

They're, I would say, a very healthy food.

Yeah.

You know, as with any practices, any large practice, any large

conventional practices, there's going to be challenges.

But you have to understand, meat is highly regulated.

Right.

USDA is highly regulated.

Something else to understand is that, and you would appreciate this, and the business people would appreciate this, is whoever has the money controls the narrative and the marketing.

And beef is a commodity.

Beef, soy, corn, egg, milk, those are all commodities.

And they're under the jurisdiction of the USDA.

Their collective marketing budget, right?

Do you know individual milk farmers?

or dairy farms?

No.

What about for out of all the cattle farmers?

Do you know the names of, give me five?

Can't.

You can't.

They pool their resources together and their collective marketing budget is $750 million.

Damn.

Collectively.

No, collectively, everybody.

Oh.

Versus PepsiCo, one company, has almost $2 billion for marketing.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

And is under a different jurisdiction.

Got it.

USDA Commodities, these are small farms.

Yeah.

And they have one-liners.

For example, I say milk and you say does does a body good.

I say pork and you say the other white meat.

I say beef, you say what's for dinner.

Right.

Versus fake meats you'll hear are better for the planet.

And they make all these astronomical claims.

Yeah.

A commodity as a whole food can't say anything disparaging against a processed food.

Interesting.

I see people on social media eating

like raw stuff.

Have you seen these?

I have.

Yeah, it's pretty.

Do you eat anything raw?

I don't.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that.

I don't.

I like it a little cooked, at least.

I like it a lot cooked.

But in general, like, what's your diet?

Is it mainly meat?

No.

No, it's not.

I eat a higher protein diet.

I eat around one gram per pound body weight.

I'm about 110 pounds.

And I eat a lot of fruits and vegetables.

Wow.

You eat more protein than me.

I need to step it up.

Yeah, it would be.

But again,

the time is now for you to do that because it's not an if, it's a when.

Skeletal muscle declines as we age.

And just like your bank account, you want to pad it now, not when you need it.

Yeah.

So you basically are saying it's harder to grow muscle as you get older.

You can do it, but it's more challenging.

Right.

When you're young, you're driven by hormones.

You have a lot of adaptability.

Yeah.

You're primed for muscle growth.

And as you age, hormones decline.

You don't want to be driven by insulin anymore, right?

You don't want to gain weight.

Yeah.

You have to really, the balance between diet and exercise changes.

Yeah.

Are you fasting?

Do I fast or am I fasting now?

No, like in general, do you do intermittent fasting?

Depends on the day, but I will typically push the fasting earlier.

Eating earlier, I think, is better, especially after an overnight fast.

Really?

Because your skeletal muscle is primed.

Remember, skeletal muscle is a focal point for health and wellness.

Yeah.

And

you have to balance these, you know, the way you maintain skeletal muscle is you balance the turnover or catabolism of it with the building of it, the synthesis of it.

And it's a dynamic process that's always going on.

And after you are coming out of an overnight fast, your body's primed.

Got it.

I wouldn't continue to fast later on in the day.

I would say eat earlier and then fast later.

Wow.

Yeah, I'm doing the opposite.

I'm skipping breakfast, fasting,

I guess, 16 hours, and then eating around in the afternoon.

So then you've gone all that time without protecting skeletal muscle.

Oh my gosh.

See, it's hard to, there's so much stuff online, you know what I mean?

And you think you're following the right advice and then you hear other opinions.

So it's hard to find the right opinion.

You have to vet the opinion.

And so I wrote this book that is coming out called Forever Strong.

And I wrote it for the layman.

I wrote it for people that are totally confused.

And you want to know why I wrote it?

Because I'm a trained geriatrician.

Do you know what that is?

No.

I did my fellowship in individuals over the age of 65.

Okay.

And so I did a fellowship for two years.

I did clinical research as well as seeing patients.

I did obesity medicine research and then did my clinicals in geriatrics.

While those seem very different,

it's towards the end of life.

Not saying 65 is towards the end of life, but your job as a geriatrician is you are taking care of the aging population.

And that includes palliative care.

That includes people that are dying and you're you're at the bedside and you are rounding on them.

That includes individuals that are in nursing homes.

And I just had this moment where I saw online everybody fighting, everyone saying, go vegan, go vegetarian, do this diet, do that diet.

And

that space in time is so critical.

And the distraction is so great that just like you at 26 is trying to figure it out, that window of opportunity closes.

And that's why I wrote this this book.

It is an evidence-based book

that, and again, I trained in nutritional sciences for seven years and I'm a physician.

Yeah.

And so there's a responsibility to step in and say, okay, well, what do we know?

Right.

I love that.

I love evidence stuff, but also there's always like a study for something and against.

So you got to read within the lines almost.

I would say that the way that you think about that is what is the collective body of evidence?

It's not a study, it's not one or two studies.

The research on protein, they're decades.

It's decades old.

There are enough, there is enough evidence, and there's multiple groups that support high-quality protein and aging.

Wow.

That's incredible.

You did that for two years.

So you must have really learned a lot about, you know, because they were telling you everything about their health, right?

Yeah.

Well, I've been a, I trained, so I've been a doctor since 2006.

Wow.

I did my undergraduate in nutritional sciences, studied under one of the world-leading experts in protein metabolism.

And then I did medical school and I did two years of psychiatry training, and then three years of family medicine.

Oh my God.

And then I did a postdoc at WashU and St.

Louis.

That's like 15 years of education.

I know.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

And what you learn that is so valuable is that a good physician recognizes patterns of disease,

but an effective physician recognizes patterns of people.

Whoa, trying to wrap my head around that statement.

So, what do you mean by that?

Meaning, if you understand where a person fails on their health and wellness journey

and you exploit their weaknesses, you teach them how to get the best out of themselves.

And you remove the physical obstacles.

You remove the distraction.

Wow, sounds powerful.

I don't think a lot of people are capable of that.

Well, that's what probably my most valuable training.

And that, the other part of the value to the training that I did is seeing end of life.

Life is short and it is gone in a second.

Every moment matters.

Being distracted matters.

Understanding that you have to create a strong and capable body so that you can leave a legacy.

Yeah, I love that.

I've lost some people recently, and it's crazy.

You never know.

You assume you're going to hit 70, 80, 90, or whatever, but you just never know.

There's no guarantee.

Yeah.

And that's why this mission is so important because for the time that we have, we should do good with it.

Absolutely.

It's been super fun.

Anything you want to close off with or promote before we wrap up?

Just that this book can change the world.

It will change.

This book is called Forever Strong.

You can get on my website, Dr.

Gabrielle Lyon.

You can get it on Amazon.

And this has the potential to change the narrative of the obesity epidemic that we're facing.

I love that.

Do you know what the rates are right now?

The what?

How many people are obese in America?

40%?

It's well over 40%.

Oh my gosh, that's hard.

40%

are either overweight or obese.

So you're going to change tens of millions of lives.

Yeah, we are, my friend.

We are.

Thanks to you guys.

Yeah, thanks for coming on.

Thanks for watching, guys, as always, and I'll see you next time.