The Jungle Man Chronicles: Inside the Mind of Poker Pro Dan Cates | Digital Social Hour #34

Welcome to the Digital Social Hour, guys.

I am here with my co-host, Charlie Cavalier, and our guest today, Dan Cates.

How we doing, fellas?

I'm doing pretty decent.

Yeah, I'm feeling pretty good.

Nice.

What brings you to Vegas today?

So there is this poker player, very nice poker player named Phil Galfons.

He's nice to everyone.

He's one of the best players in the world.

He's also a businessman.

He's got a kid.

And

I have the belief...

the belief, you could say, that he's trying to take over the poker social

the poker

he's trying to take over the poker world in some kind of way.

He's got some kind of dastardly plan.

He's too nice.

Someone has to take him in.

Someone has got to take him down.

He's known also as his moniker, Mr.

Falcons.

Okay.

So I have to play in Las Vegas on the site wsop.com.

He believes that I'm scared, but I had to prove him wrong.

And I also have to...

Someone's got to take him to justice.

So far, he's beaten everyone in his challenge, and I'm the guy who's going to take him down.

Okay.

How's the challenge going currently?

Because I know you played with him earlier today.

Well,

it's going according to plan, you could say.

I've successfully duped him into thinking he's got a real chance by him being up about $90,000.

But it's all part of the plan.

You're just getting that information for now.

You're going to act on it now.

I'm letting him get soft and comfortable.

Right, right.

So is Mr.

Falcons a superhero or a super villain?

People think he's a superhero.

Oh, I know.

And he certainly looks like a superhero with all his actions and his words and all the things that he does.

But I know the truth that he's,

in spite of nearly 100% evidence, that he's got a superly dastardly plan and is probably a supervillain.

Hmm.

What gave that vibe?

He's too nice.

He's too nice.

And

you have to be able to see the forest

from the trees.

Let's put it like that.

Okay.

You seem very spiritual.

You could say so.

I kind of go back and forth.

I try to align logic and spirituality.

And I'm being serious.

I mean, like, there's a lot of spiritual stuff that's in the woo-woo direction.

In the straight-up woo-woo direction, there's some that's in the woo-woo direction that is totally, completely legit,

and some that's also confirmed legit, and some of that that's been

in the woo-woo section at at various points in time, such as meditation and yoga, which is interesting.

Um, it's actually quite compelling evidence that there's something there, that those things are real.

So, do you meditate and do yoga?

Yeah, I do most days.

At least right now, I'm doing Kriya yoga and I'm doing lots of exercise, which, I mean, yoga and some exercise is kind of similar.

I've been doing kung fu lessons and some stretching is kind of like that.

But I think I'm going to try to get in my yoga during poker because I have no time.

And poker, we're just like sitting around doing nothing.

Yeah.

Whereas, like, if you do some yoga stretches, it's probably some like fun way of combining them.

But yes, is the answer to your question.

I never thought I'd be the guy doing meditation, sitting around doing breathing exercises every day, but here I am, and I'm finally convinced.

Are you utilizing the Wim Hoff breathing method?

I want to check out Wim Hoff's stuff at some point in time, but I am not.

I am...

I met a guy that I believe is like a real version of like,

you could say the divine or

an enlightened person they're called like the Jivan Mukta I think I'm pronouncing that right in the

philosophy

Advaita Vedanta that one I know I'm pronouncing right that one's pretty good at philosophy

really this guy doesn't seem to have any faults and he's got a whole course

he's got a bunch of courses

and he he like promotes all his stuff and he gives all he's actually has quite a bit of money but he doesn't spend it He doesn't buy lavish things at all.

He likes to gives a lot to the poor, and it's quite simple.

And I follow his stuff, I think it's really good.

And it was a combination of a lot of things that I've been looking at.

And you know, like, so I've learned about Kriya Yoga and I've learned about transcendental meditation and what he was doing.

It was basically a combination of both of those.

I was like, okay, there's a lot of,

I mean, the thing I said about the forest and the trees is also mostly true.

So he,

there's a lot of positive signs there.

So it's kind of like you can have,

yeah, there's a lot of positive signs.

There's a lot of benefits of doing these sorts of breathing exercises, apparently.

So I've been doing his practice, essentially.

And like,

yeah, I mean, he just.

This guy, there's also a lot of miracles around him too, like really a lot.

And

one of his books I got, or I got a couple of his books.

They're all really good and have good insights.

His name is Robbie Shankar.

He's actually really well known.

He's got an ashram.

His thing's called The Art of Living.

I'm happy to promote him for free.

That's awesome.

The power of the breath is crazy.

I don't know if you guys saw when Wim Hoff injected himself with a disease and then he breathed his way out of it.

I did not see that.

Just through the power of breath.

I did not see this, but definitely I need to try his stuff.

He didn't use like the cold or anything like that.

No, just breath.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, it was insane.

I did not see that.

That's wild.

I didn't know you could do that.

So, what's the breathing technique that you're using?

I've done it a couple times.

I've done it actually on a show that will come out.

It'll be kind of goofy.

But it's called, well, it's mostly Kriya Yoga Exercises.

What's Kriya Yoga?

I haven't heard of that.

It's a version of yoga that

does breathing exercises, basically, and it just does something to

your nervous system somehow that makes you happier and also makes your moods not swing too hard, or at least makes them swing,

makes the swings ultimately less.

Like if you have a big swing, it'll like narrow it really fast.

But it's a mix of exercises at

some

breathing through the back of your

throat.

There's like scientific explanations for all of them, although I don't know them all.

There's some bastrikas, which is a Kriya yoga exercise.

It's like a fast exercise where you do something like this and

breathe in and out really fast.

A lot of other basic breath exercises.

Yeah, it's

not so crazy in the Kriya yoga, but it's just not that mainstream talked about.

Yeah.

Actually,

the yoga that

Param Hansa Yogananda brings from

India to

California is Kriya yoga.

So that may be the real reason why a lot of people

know of it in the U.S.

Interesting.

I haven't heard of it, have you?

I have not, but I'm interested because you are a world-class poker player.

How much of what we're talking about, breathing techniques, any of this stuff, do you do at the table, or does it have an effect on your game you know what's funny i'm i guess i must be the first person that's done these breathing exercises in front of everyone but i'm doing them because if i don't i literally will not have time to do them a lot of the time because i'm just so busy and

um they're pretty weird and

what was your question how much of this stuff affects your game and are you doing it at the table when you're playing uh i'm just doing it but it's really obvious and it should actually affect a poker player's game because it literally, it makes you less, I think the word is neurotic.

Or at least if you are neurotic, it calms all that down.

And maybe there's some benefits actually to being neurotic, but I don't remember what they are.

And that's exactly what you need in poker because you can get really stressed and get in all kinds of emotional states.

And this seems like meditation and this seems exactly what would calm you down.

Yeah.

When you see yourself getting tilted, are there any any techniques you start doing to sort of calm yourself down?

One is

three bedding a lot.

That calms me down and winning pots.

But seriously, taking a walk is pretty helpful.

Maybe like meditation probably would be helpful, but I've not actually done that too much.

And usually I take some kind of a break or like, what else do I do?

I like get a massage that I get a massage anyway if I'm like super stressed.

I'm like,

I've seen a photo of you getting a head massage.

A lot of people have seen me getting a head massage or getting

a photo of me getting a massage.

What is the most ridiculous thing you've seen someone do at the table, you know, other than getting an argument, having something come in to help them?

Come in to help them?

Like get a massage or take a walk.

What's the most ridiculous thing you've ever seen someone do at the table for themselves?

To try to get over tilt or whatever.

Just ridiculous period.

Ridiculous period.

I've seen, well, I think people get IVs.

Sometimes they leave and get IVs.

That seems like not the worst idea.

And that'll keep you awake for a while.

I've never actually done that, but I've heard of it.

I have seen someone like get like stretched.

And actually, they lost because of me.

This Asian player named Shanghai Wong.

He was like losing.

It was mostly like me beating him from running hot and also buffing him and stuff.

So he's screaming my name, Jungle Man, and he's on like the floor and he's some basus is stretching him in Montenegro, I believe.

That was up there.

Anyone pull out a weapon of some sort in rage?

No, I've never seen that, but I've heard people just be completely insane.

So there's that.

Oh, I thought about

there's actually this

I mean, one thing I realized is that poker in theory kind of helps you to deal, or it should help you to deal with people when they get super emotional, which is kind of a rare thing because it's a rare situation when someone gets super emotional, so you get practice in that situation.

But in poker, it's not as rare because people get on rage tilt, like relatively often, and you kind of have a moment to calm them down

at the poker table, or like think about what will actually work, because it's not logic.

Logic's not what works when someone's really mad.

I'm actually like,

it's actually super annoying when someone's like

trying to like convince you not to be mad when you're mad.

It's not how it works.

Relatable.

Yeah.

And

that's one funny application.

So that can be crossed over from poker to relationships where, you know, if you say the wrong thing and someone's mad, it can cause more problems and more damage.

And it's like not that easy to know what to do in those situations.

Indeed.

A lot of my audience is probably not even playing poker or they're beginners.

So what's some actionable advice you could give to someone looking to start their poker journey out?

Let's see.

Without losing a ton of money.

Like, I've read that happened to you and you had to work at McDonald's.

Prepare to lose a lot, but not necessarily a lot of money.

That might be the first thing.

Okay.

Lose a lot mentally.

Well, lose a lot, just get used to losing.

Or expect to lose first.

It's probably a good advice now that I think about it.

It's sort of like the more you expect to lose, the more that helps you to win faster.

Seems like there's something like that there.

Other than that, just to get the basics right, once you get the basics right, you can beat people pretty easily, I think, at poker is my guess.

Okay.

There are some...

Because once you get the basics right, a lot of the other stuff within that is beyond that.

I mean, you can learn all that stuff, but it's sort of finer and finer tuning.

And you can get caught up in all these oscillations, but really the basics are, even though they're like the simple decisions, they are what matter really a lot.

Got it.

All right.

Our friend Scott here is about to join us.

He's going to play you heads up.

For some courtside Knicks tickets.

Is that alright with you?

Yeah, that's okay.

Let's do it, Scott.

We'll keep asking you some stuff while you guys play.

Charlie's going to be our dealer here.

And I will try my best not to mess up all of the dealing.

And we're going to shuffle the cards real quick.

While we're doing that, how does one get the nickname Jungle Man?

Well, if you're from the jungle, you get to be called Jungle Man.

And you're from the jungle.

Sort of.

Any further explanation on that one, or is that what we're working with?

Well, that's a backstory I often run with

that

my parents went to Costa Rica and then they never came back and they left me there and I was raised by the monkeys there.

Wow.

Often people kind of believe me for a while, or at least they're not sure if you like say it with enough confidence.

Yeah.

But the real story is that

when I first started playing poker,

no one knew where I came from and I was playing kind of crazy and I had hairy arms and I had long hair.

My hair was messy.

So they called me Jungle Man.

Okay.

That's the real story.

And that was my online name.

Interesting.

So what we're going to do here is we're going to play heads up.

Everyone starting with 5,000 and chips.

We're going to play till the end of the podcast.

And the person with the most at the end wins.

Pretty simple.

Yeah.

All right, cool.

That does affect decisions, by the way.

That's why I wanted to get it out there, you know, now.

Got 13 minutes.

Sean, you played a poker tournament for the first time ever recently.

What was that like?

It was actually a lot of fun.

One thing I will say about poker is it's really good for networking.

There's a lot of interesting people you meet at the table.

I did not do well.

It was my first time ever.

So I got about 40th place out of 100.

But I met some cool people and it was fun.

Yeah.

It is one of the unique situations that is good for networking because it's kind of egalitarian in that.

I don't know if that's the right word.

Anyone could play.

All you need to do is buy in or get the seat.

Yeah.

Essentially.

I have the idea to make

to host poker events of sorts, among other events, when I'm in Los Angeles.

Yeah.

Because there's really a large interest for it.

Because there's so much on the line, I'm going to leave it to you guys.

I'm going to have you tell me when I'm ready to deal because I'm not going to be the one that messes this up.

Okay.

Yeah, you can deal.

Okay.

Want to bird one?

I'm going to get one.

Oh, you're supposed to raise or something.

You have to look at your cards first.

Well, I'm not playing.

Oh, you're playing Scott.

Oh, well,

he's got to look at his cards first.

Well, that's why he said I should deal.

Oh, I see.

Okay.

Should we redo that?

Yeah, just figure that out.

Okay.

Okay.

I check.

Check.

Target.

500.

Are you going to keep asking me questions?

We are.

I got into this.

Yeah, and I want to know, how did you get your start in this, Dan?

Like, what was the first time where you decided, hey, because I read that you first started in online.

How did this first inclination come about that you decided you should log in on the internet and start playing poker for money?

Well, it was after I played live poker and lost $3,000 and then my parents locked out my savings and I knew that I could play online for much smaller.

That's how I played online.

That's how I first played online when I was 17, but I wasn't 18.

That was part of the problem.

I thought I needed to be 18.

And then, yeah, I was like tired of playing larger stakes for like 100 or 200 buy-ins.

And I was like thinking to myself, I just want to play small.

I'm tired of losing.

So I played five and $10 games online instead and worked at at McDonald's.

And what was the first horrible experience you had losing a bunch of money playing poker?

Uh, how much money you were talking?

Give me a number, it's all relative, right?

At different stages in your life, whatever the bottom is to you.

Like, have you had a losing year?

I've had a losing year, yes.

I've had one losing year out of 15.

That's pretty good.

Uh, I think I've, I might have had two, I'm not sure.

We're good, but um, it's more like other stuff got in the way and stuff.

But uh, one of the um

yeah, one I've had, I've been cheated a number of times.

times.

One time I was cheated for $4,000.

I've done incredibly stupid things.

I've uh

it's on you, by the way.

Um

so I uh 300

I went to a friend's house and basically a friend sweated my friend, uh my friend who was playing me from somewhere else.

Make it six.

And

yeah, I bas they were relaying cards essentially essentially, and I lost $4,000 playing.

Did you get it back?

I did not, no.

But you called them out on the cheating?

I found out that one person

roughly cheated me.

There must have been two people, essentially, working together.

No, I know who one of them was, but there was not a whole lot I could do.

Right.

But it's one of these situations where

one of them's kind of a deadbeat.

It's on you, by the way.

Check.

Okay.

And the other one,

I'm not really sure who it is.

I'm pretty sure.

It's either one or two people.

Maybe I should.

Yeah.

I saw what happened in that recent whole scandal.

The recent scandal?

With

who was it?

Did you see that?

It was all over Twitter, bro.

No.

Jack's up.

It was at the lodge, I think.

Oh,

shit.

Wow.

Dang.

Scott's doing well here.

Two for two, Scott.

All right.

You got some.

You got to focus up.

If you want us to stop asking.

No, go ahead.

Keep going.

Where do you see the intersection with AI and poker?

That'll be interesting to see.

Because what will be interesting to see is if people if they have much trouble to create an AI that can learn every game in poker.

That would be pretty scary if they can learn it pretty well.

But they have been able to create...

They have been...

I don't know a whole lot about how AI works.

I know a little bit about

how they try to create intelligence and some of the methods.

I do know that AI is very, very good at some of the games in poker.

And at limit games, it could be really good, but limit games are quite simple, to be honest.

I don't know any stories of robots or computers playing poker or doing anything of the sort.

I'm sure Dan, you might.

Oh, no, no, the computers play online a decent amount.

It's just a matter of if sites try to do something about it.

That's one thing that poker stars did do well: get rid of people,

get rid of

bots playing online.

They play online some places if they're not regulated enough.

Where is your favorite place to play online?

I like GG poker.

Software is really good.

It's fun.

It's got lots of fun emotions and things like that.

Let's see.

Yeah, GG poker.

Do you prefer online or in-person playing?

Hmm.

I would say usually online.

Online?

Because you could just relax at home and

go anywhere and you can do other things.

What other things are we talking about?

Some YouTube videos.

What else?

I can do my breathing exercises in peace.

I can order food.

What else?

I can watch a movie, maybe.

I don't really do that.

I've been trying to learn the flute a little bit.

I used to play that in fifth grade when they made you pick an instrument.

You picked the flute, it's like the hardest instrument.

Yeah, I did not have a good time.

It's so hard to play.

And then I tried trumpet, and that was even worse.

The trumpet's even harder?

The spit just compiles in it, and it's just disgusting.

Oh, no.

I learned the piano.

I got lucky.

That one's fun.

My mom made me do that, too, when I was a kid.

What is the most realistic poker movie you've ever seen?

For living the life of being a professional poker player?

You know what?

I've only seen like two poker movies.

I've only seen Molly's game.

I haven't seen Molly's game.

I've only seen

rounders.

Okay.

But

rounders can be realistic, I guess.

Like, there's not really.

I don't know.

If you're trying to grind out a living at 510 or something, I could see it being realistic and you're taking shots.

It's on you.

Five minutes left.

You're first, by the way.

300.

Cool.

By the way,

the fact that there's only five minutes left should change the strategy quite a lot.

So explain.

I'm all in.

You're all in?

Oh, man.

This could determine it.

I can't call.

I have nothing.

Oh.

Smart fold.

This is a smart fold.

Wow, Scott's doing well.

You're not supposed to flip over his hand.

You're not supposed to look, Dan?

That would have told me that I caught the nuts.

yeah

i think i need 200 back oh yeah 200 back for charlie oh give us a change what's the uh what's the house rate for me on this situation

uh i'll give you three percent perfect of the ticket so you gotta figure that out with scott or dan if he wins if he manages this comeback

it's kind of a luxury poker room

it's very intimate what lessons have you learned in poker that helped you in life and business One is, I mean, one thing that poker teaches you is to be, it teaches a couple things really well.

It teaches you to be really open-minded.

If you manage to win, I should be.

If you want to win, that's quite important.

Because if you never open your mind, you'll lose and you won't learn anything.

Let's see.

400.

Because there's tons of times where you think you know everything and you don't

all the time.

So it's like, well, shit, when do I know everything?

I guess you just don't.

Yeah, and what else?

It teases you

experientially to persevere because

you need to have tough skin in poker to

win also.

You lose quite a lot and it's an unusual game in that.

It's just so normal that you have to, at some point, it feels like normal to lose.

Like, I don't care that I'm losing essentially right now.

They pull the emotion away from the loss as much as possible.

A decent amount, or at least you get used to it really fast.

200.

So those things, let's see.

Yeah, those are two examples.

Nice.

Alright, so

300.

Buff.

What similarities do you notice in all the top poker players?

What do they have in common?

Uh, they they're very honorable.

The for it's very rare for a top poker player to not pay.

We we can like say that we owe like an amount and not write a contract, and it's just pretty much always paid.

I mean, it would be interesting to get like a default rate, but like if someone's successful and has it, they always pay, and even if they don't have it, they often pay.

Um, they uh

they don't in my experience, they're

they're not very bullshitty people like they they uh

when they talk they don't like you know say something they don't mean whereas this is more common in other places like if in like networking for example right

um

do you think it's because it's a such a small community that if they screwed someone over they wouldn't be able to show face I think it's it this one's in their nature to be honest I think I think uh

yeah i think one thing i also think is that they're not generally the kinds of people that

they're normally simple i would say that's been my experience there's they're normally very open-minded but simple um in that they

at least this was me at some point but i had whatever going on that uh

that

yeah it was me for a long time i'm no longer a simple person I guess you can say.

That's a number of things.

He's slowly coming back, I think.

Do we have a tally here while I'm dealing with that?

One more minute, so I guess two more hands or

one more hand.

What do you guys want to do?

I mean, I only win if I win, right?

It's not a cash game.

I don't get any prize for this.

It changes things.

I think I'm the...

No, I'm the button, so you have to put in two.

I'm I'm going to raise it to 200.

Let's make it a thousand.

Oh, all right, I'm all in.

Oh,

oh,

we are both all in here.

Oh, I could do it.

No.

Oh.

Rig the deck.

Wow.

Shit.

Wow.

What a match.

Too bad.

All right.

Well, that was a blast, Dan.

Any closing comments you want to get out there?

I really wanted that special prize.

That was a good prize.

Yeah.

Oh, well.

We'll still get you something.

All right.

All right.

Cool.

All right.

Well, there you have it, guys.

Thanks for tuning in, Digital Social Hour.

It was a blast.

Thanks for coming on, Death.