Rollo Tomassi: I Wasn’t Supposed To Win That Dr. Phil Debate | DSH #1563

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Was that an ambush?

I didn't watch that episode.

When I had gone on Dr.

Phil back in 2021, they were expecting me to be some sort of frothing at the mouth misogynist who couldn't stand the sight of a woman or something.

And to the point where it's like, I've got an answer for everything.

And they weren't expecting that.

And I don't think a lot of other people are expecting that either because they need you to be that cartoon character.

All right, guys, got him back on today.

Rolo.

Hey, what's new, man?

Thanks for having me back.

Thanks for just calling me out of the blue.

Yeah, been going to Wet Republic a lot lately?

Uh, no, not yet.

I've probably been July or August, I think.

Yeah, we'll see.

What you've been working on lately, the pod?

Um, so I've got geez, I got a lot of irons in the fire.

Um, I'm working on a sixth book right now.

Um, I have a new program called Reignite, which is sort of um

it's a

community of guys, it's sort of

a tribe of guys, but it was

an idea I had with a good friend of mine, Joe Marone, and they were part of Mike Sartain's men of action.

And he and I just sort of saw a need there and we're like, you know, there's a lot of guys who are like sort of older.

And, you know, I just turned 57.

So happy birthday.

Thank you.

It was back in April.

And so we

sort of, Joe and I are about the same age.

And we thought, you know, uh a lot of guys are trying to rebuild their lives they're trying to sort of just uh make sense of it all like a lot of guys are coming out of like some really bad relationships or or bad marriages after 20 plus years and you know the i mean the prime demographic for guys who are like uh prone to like deleting themselves

are right around 43 45 somewhere around there between 45 and 65 somewhere midlife and yeah more or less but it's usually just sort of like this you know

midlife epiphany i think is probably a better better term for it but they're just they don't understand the the intricacies of the sexual marketplace um and in many cases they're coming out of relationships that might have been 20 25 years right and so um so we decided we were going to put together this group called reignite and um then we had a lot of people saying well if i'm not 45 years old can i join And I'm like, yeah, there's no age limit.

It's just basically for guys who are just trying to rebuild themselves and put themselves back together.

And so where we kind of differ from what Mike's been doing is we kind of play defense and Mike's sort of offense.

Yeah, he's got a younger crowd, right?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, if we were a football team, he'd be the offensive coordinator and I'd be the defensive coordinator.

I love him.

That's why you two work well together.

Oh, Mike and I are just,

he's like a brother to me.

So,

but we do a lot of good work together.

And so Joe and I have been doing this for almost a year now.

And it's starting to take on a character of its own.

And so we did, and we we do a lot of fun events.

It's not like a mastermind or a classroom setting or anything like that.

It's just like guys getting together and doing things that we like to do and then having good discussions because that's how men communicate, right?

It's like we have to have a project or we have to have a problem to solve collectively.

And that's where real communication takes place between guys.

So,

you know, if we go deep sea fishing or if we go to the shooting range or if we go play golf or whatever their particular shared interests are.

um so we try to do a schedule event we do probably you know maybe four or five events a year but we have a community and stuff so that's one project i'm working on and then the book reignite is a uh sort of inspired by that so i'm using the book as sort of um a primer i guess yeah for the guys in the program and then um gosh beyond that we're still doing access vegas we've been almost three years now crazy and still doing my show the rational mail every sunday 1 p.m Pacific, 4 p.m.

Eastern.

But making YouTube work these days is quite a challenge.

Talked about it.

Being shadow banned, being on a DHS watch list, being a part of a NGO experiment over the last 18 months, two years,

which was funny because I can remember when the biannual report came out for

the NGO, which is called Diverting Hate here,

when they first came out with the biannual report, and then, of course, they promptly took it down from public consumption.

Everybody thought it was being very conspiratorial.

And now suddenly we have 100% confirmation of it, and everybody wants to sort of jump on board and

pretend that they've always been a part of that.

Well,

I was part of a select group of people who were sort of guinea pigs for

a program that was meant in

intentionally designed, I should say, to redirect my traffic and Rich Cooper's traffic, Fresh and Fitz traffic, Aaron Clary's traffic

to state-approved or positive masculinity sites, whatever that means.

And people didn't really want to believe that it was a,

you know, funneled money through the DHS

to,

what was it, the McCain Institute at ASU, and then it goes to the NGOs from there.

So it's almost like money laundering, but it's taxpayer dollar money laundering.

And it's not just for the Manosphere, by the way.

I didn't realize this until later on, but

it was for

there were similar NGOs that were designed to sort of limit free speech for conservative talking pundits, I guess, as well.

And I didn't realize that until I started looking into the

Senate hearings or maybe it was congressional hearings for Elijah Crane, who was a guy out of, I think he's a congressman out of Arizona.

And

I thought it was interesting because it was exactly what I was going through, but he was talking about it from a different perspective.

It was

conservative

media outlets, I guess, were under the same kind of scrutiny where they were having their traffic deliberately redirected using U.S.

taxpayer dollars to do so.

And so

I'm like, wait, it was us too.

It was us first.

Crazy.

So it was, it was an eye-opener.

I've always known that I've been shadow banned.

It's one thing to get shadow banned.

It's another thing to like have

them monkey around with your traffic.

You and I were talking earlier off camera.

I was saying it's primarily an effort to get you to quit.

That's what it is.

It's not about, I mean, if YouTube wanted to delete you, they can just delete you anytime they want to.

But they do that too many times.

And then people go, okay, well, you can't get any, like, who can make money on YouTube?

Right.

Why bother?

But the thing thing is, is now is rather than

rather than delete you or just take you out entirely, they just cut off your oxygen until you just quit until it's no longer worth it for you to bother.

So it's tough, man.

Like you, you almost hopped out of a safety net as a content creator these days.

Like if you come in completely broke, it's going to be really tough to make a living.

Yeah, YouTube is no longer what it used to be, I don't think.

Not like, you know, like the Mr.

Beast days, you know, like when if you got in early or you're an early adopter or something like that, you probably did pretty well.

you did pewdie pie and stuff like that you're probably you're probably okay but um

but if you're trying to start something new right now and especially if it's in a niche that's kind of well by their terms questionable

um then there's probably better ways to go about um if that's the niche you've chosen there's probably better ways to do to I don't know get more exposure media wise than using YouTube at this point.

And that's not to say that YouTube's inherently bad.

It's just that it's just one of many platforms right now.

And it seems to be the most controlled and the most tightly controlled right now.

So

for

my model of

using YouTube is I do live content.

I've always done live.

And I've had a healthy respect for guys who will do live streaming because you're right there.

And it's what I call engagement media.

So if I've got

you know, 2,000 people in the chat, 2,500 people in chat,

I have more people in a live situation than I did when I went on Dr.

Phil, which is like 300 people in a live studio.

That's right.

So there's a, it's a, it's kind of a different animal to be doing things on a live situation.

Um, so it used to be back in the day, you could make a lot of money by doing super chats.

Like people would throw out a hundred dollar super chat, $500 super chat, whatever the max was.

I don't know.

And nowadays, I don't know

about other content creators, but I do know this if I look at like the guys from or like Brian from whatever podcast, his podcasts have been getting progressively longer and longer and longer to the point where he's doing like 10-hour podcasts because the revenue model was to do a live stream and basically farm it for super chats.

And that was that's how you made money.

And that's how Fresh and Fit made money.

And that's how whatever, and that's how we were doing it for a long time.

But now it seems to me that YouTube has been monkeying around around with the

super chat algorithm, I guess,

where you get to the point where you've got like these longtime super chat people who are trying to super chat you 100 bucks, but they can't.

It'll limit them.

It won't allow them to do $100 super chat, but it will allow them to do a $20 super chat.

And I'm like, is this something new?

And I saw I had actually my people in my audience.

I said, okay, let's, you know, throw out a $10 super chat, see if it goes through.

Throw out a $20.

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$20 super chat, see if it goes through.

Okay, throw out $100 Super Chat, and it won't.

It limits it at that point.

And I don't know if that's something that's new that's happened with YouTube recently, but again, it's an effort to get you to quit.

So they didn't delete your channel.

You just stopped because

they don't want to make it worthwhile to do those things.

So now what I see is a lot of people,

for instance, like

we were just saying before, like Myron and Fresh are doing like four-hour podcasts as a sort of a

subscription drive, right?

Same thing, like Pearl did the same thing.

They'll do these

fairly long form, you know, live streams in an effort to get people to sign up for subscriptions, right?

Because that's a profit model, it's a revenue model.

But the thing is, is like for a guy like me who's already an author, I can make more money with

my sub stack than I can with my YouTube.

Because if I'm charging $9.99 a month for my sub-stack and I'm getting $9.99 a month for my YouTube and all I have to do is like two or three blog posts, you know, do some writing, which is going to end up in my books that I can, you know, repurpose for other things as well.

Well, I'm going to spend more time on Substack than I will on YouTube.

100%.

YouTube is just outreach.

I just do it because it's a labor of love.

And I don't, you know, if you give me $5, you give me $100, I don't care.

I'm going to still do YouTube just because it's

maybe I'm just vain that way.

It's fun, right?

But it's fun and it's outreach and

it's good to get input from other people, right?

But as far as a revenue model and like staying in business, it's like Substack is a better option than YouTube for someone like me anyways.

Yeah.

For authors anyway.

For a writer, yeah.

There's not many people that are sending me other.

I was going to say, there's another iron in the fire that I have.

I've got Substack that I'm working on quite a bit.

And then, you know, we've got Access Vegas.

Again, not,

I lose money on Access Vegas.

I just do it because I enjoy it enough.

And it's outreach, you know, know, and people know us.

And there's perks to it as well, obviously.

I mean, we got the girls and we go out to doing things like babes in toilet and charity events and things like that too.

So it, you know, it keeps you in the limelight.

But other than that,

it's money out.

It's not money in.

And I think we've sort of gone past the days of like 2021, 2022, when it was like sort of the golden era, I think, of doing live streams and everything.

And now we're kind of resorting to, you know, trying to do membership drives and trying to keep, you know, trying to try new things and figure new stuff out.

And we will.

There'll be something else.

Maybe it'll be AI, maybe something else.

We'll figure something else.

With social media, you always got to be adapting.

Stuff changes so frequently.

Yeah.

Somewhere along the lines, you know, something new will come, will come along and it's like the early adopters will figure it out

back in the day.

Yeah.

You just have to be, you have to be agile.

You have to be mobile and maneuverable.

And that's really what it takes.

And these days, everyone seems to be clip farming, right?

They're going for these crazy clips.

Do you think that's pretty toxic overall?

I think that it

lessens our

attention span for sure.

I was just talking out there

about

the, you know, I write books, right?

I'm working on a six book right now.

You've got to have that in a digital format.

You've got to have it in a hard format.

You've got to have audible.

So you got all those things, which is great because they're all revenue streams.

But

nobody reads.

Like who reads now, right?

We listen to our books for sure.

I only use Audible.

I don't read books.

Well, I have a, I mean, my first book came out in 2013.

So you've had 12 years to read my book.

So if

you don't know what you're talking about, or like, I know what I wrote in my book.

So when I have people like,

assume that I said something that I didn't, or I assume I believe in something that I don't.

I'm like, well, did you read the book?

Well, no.

Like, well, you've had 12 years to read it, so you've got no excuse.

Come back and we can have a conversation once you know what you're talking about.

But the reason why I get those accusations in the first place is because of the 45-second clip.

So if I go and I say something,

if I'm in a three-hour live stream on my show, or I'm on Access Vegas or something, and we pull a 45-second clip to put on, you know, reels, or we put it on a, you know, shorts or whatever like that.

People don't know that, you know, I'm an internationally best-selling author of five different books, right?

So they don't know that.

They just think you're just some schmuck on the internet.

Red pills.

Yeah.

So it's one of those red pill guys, right?

Get him.

Oh, but,

but, so, and they hear this clip and they, they, they take that and then they just extrapolate from that and they presume like you're you mean something that you never intended because it's and you're doing it like i'm doing it because it's driving traffic, right?

It's a marketing thing.

You have to do that.

And the more salacious it is and the more outrageous it is and the more people are going to put their eyes on it.

Right.

Well, the problem with that is then people presume you mean something that you did because they didn't see the hour that you built up to that one, you know, that one clip.

And so it's, it's kind of a double-edged sword for us.

You know, you need it, but it also is like the source of a lot of just sort of like headaches all the time.

But yeah, as far as like, I mean, they say, you know, the internet doesn't forget, but it has a very short attention span.

Oh, yeah.

They'll forget the next day.

Yeah.

But, you know, like, I have been doing this with what I've been doing for 22 plus years.

And so people just presume I'm just some sort of podcast or I'm just sort of like some influencer or something like that.

It's like, no, I've been doing this quite some time.

And if you want to have a conversation about it, I'm more than happy to.

But I think the problem is

the main problem

for

like clips and the 45 second, you know, attention span generation

is that if you give them data and if you give them stats and you give them facts and you don't tell people how to feel about those things, they will hate you for it.

They will presume that you're telling them because if they agree with you, they'll be like, oh, yes, this is great.

And they'll love you for it because it aligns with whatever it is that they happen to think.

And so they'll take it and they'll, they'll run with it.

But if it doesn't align with what their sort of belief set is, then they will presume that you mean the worst.

They will presume that if you, like I said, if you don't tell them how to feel about that particular fact,

then they're going to

infer that you're telling them because you believe something that doesn't align with what their identity is sort of aligned with.

Yeah.

And so that's, I think, is one of the bigger problems, especially with like my kind of content or red pill/slash manosphere content right now, is it's real easy to shit on the on the red pill right now because

it's almost a revenue model at this point is to straw man what people have said in a 45 second clip and then make that the entirety of of the whole manosphere, the whole,

they want to call it a movie, I don't wouldn't call call it a movement, but

the entirety of your message, right?

And it's like, no, first of all, you didn't see like the minute and a half, two hours, whatever before that.

Bless you.

Or you don't, you've never read the book, or you have no real,

you know, grounded background in any of this stuff.

And I'm more than happy to explain it to you, but they don't want to hear that at that point.

Not as usual, it's just like that because that's their revenue model.

Their revenue model is to to

be stupidly critical like i mean absurdly critical of something that you might have said in a 45 second clip and then presume that that's what the whole thing is about like oh you guys must be misogynist well no you need to read the book or you need to like just get into it a little bit more before you start opining about things but that's not what that's not how you make money yeah you you know that there's going to be people are going to have your back you know that there's going to be people go oh yeah all those guys they say all the same things all the time and blah blah blah it's like nope, no, we don't.

Do you feel like the red pill movement has been a net positive for the dating market from then?

I think so, yes, absolutely.

Um, I know a lot of people would just here's your clip, here's your clip right now.

Um, no, I would say yes, uh, most definitely funny you should say that because I was just gotten into a conversation on Twitter uh this morning about that.

And um, the presumption is that um

those red pill guys, quote unquote,

a registered trademark, um,

Those red pill guys

are

always one way.

They want to straw man the red, the red pill, those red pill guys, right?

And usually that straw man looks like some basement dwelling incel that

is just complaining about the sexual marketplace and is not doing anything and is

living in his mom's basement and you know all of the standard tropes.

And you know, people will get behind him.

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And say, yeah, you're right.

But quite honestly, the guys that I know and the people who actually take the time to understand the material and understand that the red pill is not an ideology.

It's not a philosophy, it's not a religion, it's not a movement, it's a praxeology.

All it is is just information.

All it is is facts without feelings.

And

what happens is those guys take that information and they better their lives with it.

And so, for every guy that's out there that's really super critical of it, I can probably point to another 100 or 200 guys who the red pill per se, or my work or anybody else's work, has

substantially better their lives as a result.

But these guys want to paint someone such as myself as like, oh, they'll never have healthy relationships.

They're never going to be married.

It's like, I've been married for 29 years.

I have a 27-year-old daughter who is also married.

I wrote the rational male.

Okay.

So, what else do you got?

And so they create these, like I said, straw men or these characters that are

caricatures, maybe that's a better word,

of

the stereotypical image of the red pill guy who is just this bitter complainer

and is a misogynist and is just, like I said, it's a cartoon and will never get married, is not married.

And they presume these guys say certain things and they really don't.

But

then the best part of it is, I've had guys who will

try to strawman me.

And then I've gotten to the point where sometimes I'm just like so fed up.

I was like, I don't even want to bother responding to this.

But I feel good when I have a lot of guys get into,

who will respond to it, or they get into that stream or that thread.

And they'll say, well, the rip hill really saved my life.

I was actually planning to off myself.

If I had not gotten into this, I probably would have done so.

Or my kids have a father now because of Rolo's work.

So, you know, I know that it's a net positive.

And I have to remember, like, whenever, and this is, this is me, maybe other people as well, but when you see like hate comments on

Twitter or on YouTube or whatever else, you have to remember, like, if I, if I do a video that has 100,000 views, right?

And it has, let's say, 500 comments.

And of those 500 comments, maybe 50 of them are hate comments.

Yeah.

And then of those, how many of those guys are like really dead ass serious about about that?

You know, so if you whittle it down to the people who are like your worst haters, you're still going to focus on those

on those ones.

But the fact is, you have 50,000 people who watched your show, who watched that, at the very least they clicked on it and watched it for 30 seconds, right?

So

of the people who were viewing, of the people who viewed and then decided to comment, and of the people who viewed, decided to comment, and then decided to comment something negative, what percentage of those are

of the total views are that?

It's fractional.

It's small.

It's minute.

But those are the ones you're going to fuck.

But a lot of hate is projection, also.

It's not even you that they're hating.

It's something about themselves.

Well,

they see you doing something or they see you saying something.

And I get it.

Sometimes

it holds up a mirror that's really hard to look into.

And other times it's just people, it amazes me the the the extent that some people will go to they'll take time out of their day to to actually research and say yeah your name's not really rollo tomasi and it's like oh you got me time for me to quit yeah i guess i'm done now you know um they tried hitting myron with that one too yeah well that's what's funny to me is like do you think fresh is his real name

you know do you think like donovan sharp donovan sharp's not his that's not his real name um even ryan stone a lot of the other guys yeah i get it from a safety point of view you're talking about controversial stuff.

Wayne Simmons, not his real name, Paul Stanley, not his real name.

Yeah, why would you want to do that?

People use pseudonyms, okay?

What's the big deal?

In a face like this, I don't blame you.

You want some privacy, right?

I think there's, but see what that is, it's like when people do that, it's it's they want to they want you to think you should be questioning your legitimacy.

You're an imposter.

What do you mean?

Well, you use a you use a pseudonym, you know, when you're when you're

do you think that

there aren't people who are writing like best-selling novels right now who have like they're using their real name?

Like Danielle Steele?

That's not her real name.

Let me ask the opposite question.

Do you think the feminist movement was a net positive for the female dating market?

No,

I mean, the feminism has always been the same thing that it's been since

1848, right?

Since Seneca Falls.

It's just been a supremacism movement.

Some people say it's a hate movement.

I'm more of a sense that it's a supremacism movement.

You got to remember that like say since like 1850 until 1920, that's when 1920 was when the 19th Amendment was ratified.

So you're looking at about 70 years.

And that's when people kept saying it was the suffragette movement and all that good stuff.

You have to remember that back in those times, if you do any of the homework here,

the feminists who were part of the suffragette movement right then

were considered terrorists.

I mean, they were responsible for bombing police precincts.

They were responsible for assassination attempts.

If you, what's the day, Katie something or other, I can't remember her name.

If you read some of the writings of the early suffragettes and feminists, it is very racist.

It is very supremacist.

And so it was understandable that it didn't even gain any kind of legitimacy until, you know, post-World War I.

So I've always looked at the feminist movement as a constant movement.

There's no waves of feminism.

And I think it's a misnomer to characterize it that way.

It has always been the same thing since, well, I would say 1848, 49, something like that.

It was when Seneca Falls happened.

I didn't know it went that far back.

Yeah.

I thought it was a good thing.

Yeah, you should look up the Seneca Falls Convention.

It's really, there's only 300 people that went to.

It was really the beginning of the suffragette movement.

And it took place not only in the United States, but also in the UK and parts of Western Europe as well.

And then it didn't really even gain any kind of popularity until the mid-1910s, like right around just after World War I.

And,

but the reason why I say there's no such thing as waves of feminism is because it was just the same movement.

It was just interrupted by wars and civil unrest and the Bolsheviks and, you know, all this, anything that was like sort of historically significant that would sort of, you know, take people's attention away from it.

And quite honestly, I don't think that the feminist movement would have had any traction had it not been for hormonal birth control and then the sexual revolution that happened in its wake.

That was the best thing that ever happened to feminists was the pill.

The birth control control pill.

Really?

Yeah, because what did it do?

It put the reproductive process of all humanity in the hands of one sex.

It still does to this day.

Right.

Wow.

We can put, think about, we, we can, how many landers have we placed on Mars so far?

And we can't figure out a male birth control pill.

We figured that out in the 1965-ish or 60s, whatever,

for hormonal birth control for women.

Now, people will always check me on this.

They'll say, Well, we've got Vasagella or we've got this something else that's just waiting in the wings soon.

I'm like, Well, how come we haven't had it?

Since, you know, if we do, then how come we can, like I said, we can get

4K streaming video from the surface of Mars, but we can't figure out

how to give a pill to the guy.

We need a vasectomy right now.

Yeah.

Oh, God.

Don't hit me star down.

Jesus.

My dad got one of those

after the third.

I still hear about that tweet, by the way, which one, like when I was talking about get a, I had a viral,

probably still is viral.

Uh, I had a viral tweet about two years ago now.

Um, but I, I was actually not, it was actually a response.

It wasn't, it was a um a reply.

Oh, you ratioed someone?

No, not even really doing that.

I was just, I think I was responding to um

uh Dr.

Richard Reeves.

And uh, I put, I, I had just, I'll tell you the history of this.

I had just watched on Fresh and Fit Brandon Carter.

Yeah.

And Brandon Carter is funny as hell.

He should be a stand-up comedian.

That guy missed his calling, quite honestly.

But Brandon was on there and he was talking about

how everything in his life that he can farm out, like the responsibilities in his life that he could farm out, he does.

Right.

So

because anything that is a distraction from him making money, from him like doing content or doing whatever it is he he does, he'll farm it out.

So he doesn't

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He doesn't do any shopping.

He has people shop for him.

If he needs groceries, somebody goes and does that for him.

His wardrobe or his cleaning, his laundry, so he has a laundry or has a cleaning lady.

Doesn't have a car.

Of course, he lives in Miami.

You don't really need a car in Miami, but doesn't have a car, just Ubers wherever he needs to go.

And so essentially, every aspect of his life that would in any way take an hour away from what he is doing as a content creator, as Brandon Carter, the brand that is Brandon Carter, he farms that out.

And I thought about this and I go, if you take that to its logical extreme, it's really about what you sacrifice.

Like, what are you willing to sacrifice?

And so, that's really what that tweet was about.

That's why I should say that's what inspired that tweet.

And so, the tweet was something like this: I said, I said, The quickest way to become quickest, I didn't say the best.

I said, The quickest way to becoming a high-value man is to forget about family, forget about marriage, get a vasectomy in your 20s,

get a, you know, never ease up on your focus,

always get to the gym.

There was other aspects of it, too.

Everybody focuses on the third one.

That's all they want to, oh, Rolo's talking about self-sterilization.

I'm like,

and ironically enough, a year later, that's when Fresh got the baby trap thing going.

I'm like,

not so fucking funny now, huh?

You know, 20s is

not so funny now huh that which was exactly why i said that because it it's a i mean if there was a reversible way to to do that i would say go ahead right right if there's a male birth control i would say use that instead but that's not what's available right now so that's why

but i was being sort of facetious about the whole thing because

i when i was listening to brandon carter i'm like i've been doing i'm fairly successful in this niche i mean i'm the godfather of the red pill right i wrote the rational mail and then i realized after i had listened to that episode that I've been playing the game on hard mode for a long time because I'm married.

I've got two dogs.

I have a daughter.

I have a mother-in-law.

I've got a lot of other people that are like financially dependent on me.

And not just financial dependency, but also emotional.

And you have all of these things that you invest yourself in in your life and everything.

And each one of those things is demanding your attention.

That's taking you away from writing the next book.

That's taking you away from doing the next podcast.

It's taking you away from doing all the things Brandon Carter was talking about that he was just farming out in his life.

And I'm like, I'm pretty successful at what I do, given that I've been playing on hard mode for a long time.

And so that was really what the inspiration was behind that tweet.

But of course, everybody takes the

vasectomy part of it just completely.

Weren't you the guy that said three years ago that you have vasectomy, vasectomy, right?

And they think I want to have like, you know, gender reassignment, you know, surgeries.

Like, you guys have like,

you ever play the telephone game when you're a kid?

Like that?

Never worked on it.

Like, it's like vasectomy.

And then the kid that's like the 10th one is, Rolo said that we should all be sterilized.

And like, you know, and he's for gender reassignment.

And I'm like, how the hell did you get that?

Yeah.

That was a fun game.

I'd be happy to have some people up on purpose.

You know, it's funny is that's how I think a lot of people like get portrayed online right now is it's one big telephone game.

Oh, 100%.

Everything online.

Every time they go on Twitter.

Twitter,

Instagram, whatever it is, it's all it is is they will hear one thing, they'll fixate on one thing, and then it'll get passed around, you know, Reddit, it'll get passed around, you know, Twitter or whatever.

And so anytime somebody brings up Rola Tomasi, oh, he's the vasectomy guy, isn't he?

Like,

Jesus Christ.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And there's no way, there's no way you can go back.

There's no way you can go back and explain that because they, it's too funny.

It's too, it's too easy to just like latch onto it and just keep repeating it over and over and over yeah yeah that's the state very middle school that's the state of social media where you say one semi-controversial thing by the end of the week you're canceled it's it's the it's the the telephone game for like mass media yeah that's why when i have on guests now i'm like

usually they're like not what they're portrayed online to be honest like nick fuentes is coming on this month I've had Tate on and it's like these guys are nowhere close to what's being said about them online.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Well, see, that's the thing that gets me is like,

there's like, I appreciate you for having me on your show and stuff like that because I consider you like a, like an A-lister.

Okay.

But like, if I go and I look at like the guys from like Trigonometry or if I look at like Chris Williamson, I was on Tim Poole last year.

So I kind of have a different, I got a different opinion of Tim these days.

But.

You know, people keep saying, hey, when are you going to go on Chris Williamson?

I'm like, never,

because I am never getting that call.

And I have guys, and God bless them for every time

trigonometry has somebody on that sort of like wants to talk about the manosphere or wants to talk about the red pill or something like that.

I have guys that will instantly jump into that chat and they'll go, when are you going to have Rolo on?

When are you going to have Mike Sarteno?

When are you going to have Myron on?

When are you going to have these guys on?

When are you going to have them on together?

You know, like I say, God bless them for doing that, but it's never going to happen

because they're already convinced that I am the character that other people have made me out to be.

And that's why you're never going to see that happen.

And I've had this conversation with

Mike before, and sometimes it used to bug me.

But then, as like I said, Mike's one of my best friends.

He's kind of talked me off the edge there.

He's like, we just keep doing what we're doing and we just keep writing books and we just keep doing our stuff and we keep going and we keep forging ahead.

And

we're becoming more and more popular.

We're growing.

Every year we grow that much more.

He said, at some point along the way, it's going to look weird that they haven't had us on

and so uh like for instance like when i won i went on last year with zubi yeah and zubi's a good friend of mine i've known zubi since before he was zubi right

and um uh you know i went out to like me and my wife went out and had dinner with him and everything else and you know i know i know him personally i know his what is he's getting married soon and all nice um

and So he has me on his show and he puts him, he publishes it, makes it live.

And everybody's like, when'd you have this misogynist

on your show?

I was like, did you watch the show?

No, they don't.

They just see Rola Tomasi in the title.

Yeah.

And they see my face on the thumbnail.

And then they decide that they're not going to watch it.

They're just going to pop off about it because they already have this preconception of what I'm about, which is something I would say is probably similar to what's going on with guys from Trigonometry, the guys from

Chris Williamson.

I can name a few others as well.

And that's why, you know, like when Mike was saying, you know, just, we just got to to forge ahead and just keep going.

It's like, he's right.

You know, that's, that's all we can do.

It's all we're going to do anyways, whether we go on or we don't go on with these guys.

But at some point along the line, after the, you know, the sixth or seventh time Chris Williamson is interviewing Destiny to talk about the red pill again, it's like boring.

Got to have on both sides online.

Yeah.

It's like, how many boring interviews are you going to do with Louise Perry before you have me on there?

How many boring interviews are you going to do with

the same people that you had

last year?

And

what's it going to take?

Is it going to take you losing market share?

Is it going to take you losing revenue?

Is it going to take you losing subs?

Is it going to take you losing views?

Do you even look at your analytics?

The top shows all cycle the same 50, 100 guests.

Yeah,

they don't do anything new.

Yeah.

And I think you're right about that.

I think there's another component.

They're afraid of losing sponsors.

Yeah, that might be it.

So from a business point of view, they're like, okay, if I have this Nick Fuentes on or Roller or whoever, I might lose sponsors.

Yeah.

Well,

I'll make this announcement on your show.

I didn't think I would do it, but I was invited by Oxford University to be in the Oxford Society debate.

It's a possibility it's going to happen.

I don't know that it's 100% confirmed.

That's why I haven't really been talking about it on my show or anything like that.

But the reason I'm going to say it now is because Myron also got the invite to the same show.

So it would be myself, Myron, I think Fresh as well.

I know Chris Williamson was was one of the names mentioned for this.

I don't call it a debate, but I guess it would be a discussion, whatever it is.

Who would he be debating?

It would be about, I would presume it's about the state of masculinity.

Remember, it's in the UK, and this is sort of post like the adolescence

documents.

It's not even documentary.

I don't want to say documentary because it's not.

It's that work of fiction.

Since then, it's been a real popular subject to talk about, you know, misogyny laws and the state of masculinity, the state of men and boys.

It's interesting to me that the topics and the things that we have been discussing in the manosphere for really two decades right now is starting to finally

become unignorable to people who would just simply sweep it under the rug prior to all of this.

So if you're looking at like even

like a guy like Richard Reeves, who is part of the Brookings Institute, very left-leaning think tank organization,

I don't know if he still holds this title, but

when President Biden was in office, he was the

head or the director or something of the branch or whatever it is, the government branch for men and boys or whatever it was.

And like I said, I don't know if that's necessarily still a thing, but it had gotten to the point where it was unignorable.

And Mike and I had him on the show.

I suggested that he be brought on the Dr.

Phil show

because I liked what he had to say.

I think it's interesting that it's gotten to the point where it's become so unignorable that even the left has to talk about these issues right now.

But what they're doing is then they're taking these points and they're bastardizing them or they're making them about women.

It's not a men's problem.

It's men's problem and how it affects women.

And so I think it's encouraging that

Oxford University would reach out to myself and to Myron

and Chris Williamson too.

They're great, but just to have this kind of a discussion.

But

we'll see where it goes.

I don't know, you know, they're talking about doing it in July now.

So

we'll see what happens.

I'm ready to go.

If they want to go,

I'll be there.

I'm sure Myron will be too.

I like this new movement of colleges and universities reaching out to content creators like yourself and inviting them on campus to talk to the students because a lot of these students have been misguided through public education, right?

Well, Myron was just on what, University of South Carolina?

USC.

He went to Penn State, I believe, as well.

And he debated someone, right?

At one of those.

I think so.

I know he got some stage time.

He got some

public time, which is great.

I think the problem you're going to run into in those kind of venues is they turn into shouting matches and they turn into nothing really substantive gets gets thrown out there.

So it becomes a team sport at that point, which is why, like, when I look at a venue like Oxford, there's, you know, that's public discourse.

That's going to be on YouTube.

That's going to be something where it's going to be, I think the conversation is going to be a bit more substantive.

It'll be respectful, too.

Instead of like, you know, shut up, you bitch.

You're not going to say that at Oxford, some Charlotte Kirk.

As much as you'd like to, you're probably not going to be able to say something like that.

But you will be able to at least make some

cogent points.

And I think that's even, I think that

when, when you've got a, um, when you've got a guy such as myself or Myron, like Myron's very, is super intelligent.

And I think some of the best work I've ever done with Myron has been when it's just been him and me on the show.

And we're just discussing these things.

And we're just like a meeting of the minds.

And we're just, you know, bouncing ideas off of each other.

I think.

that if we're able to do something like that in a forum like Oxford,

that is going to really rattle a lot of cages because what these, what most popular, you know, public opinion of the red pill is that we're just some dumb idiots who picked up on a few ideas of evolutionary psychology and we really don't know what we're talking about.

And it's like, no, we've been doing, well, in my case, been doing this for, you know, 22, 23 years now.

And the conversations that you think are new, we've been talking about since 2009, you know, 2012, things like that.

And

a lot of people think that we, there's, there's aspects of intersexual dynamics that we haven't considered.

There's very little that we haven't considered in that time.

But people think that all we are is podcasters.

They don't think, they don't think of me as an author.

They think of me as like Rolo Tomasi, the co-host of Access Vegas.

And I get it because that's just what we have to do to

stay in the public light.

But what I think they're more afraid of is that we might actually have a fucking point.

We actually might have something to say about this stuff.

We actually might have, we might change some people's minds about, we might actually save some people's lives as a result of this.

And if we do, then that makes us a bit more legitimate than just being these caricatures, these straw men that they need to knock down all the time to build a brand off of.

And as I'm fond of saying, is if there is no boogeyman, then nobody gets paid.

So if the boogeyman goes up on behind the podium and Oxford University and he sounds like a Rhodes Scholar, then suddenly you have a different opinion of the guy.

And the reason I'm sort of harp on that a little bit is because when I had gone on Dr.

Phil back in 2021, I think that that's what they were expecting from me.

They were expecting me to be some sort of frothing at the mouth, you know,

misogynist who couldn't stand the sight of a woman or something like that, rather than a guy who's been happily married for, you know, almost 30 years and has, you know, essentially made a life's work out of the books and the ideas that I i put forth and to the point where it's like i've got you know i've got an answer for everything and they weren't expecting that and i don't think a lot of other people are expecting that either because they need you to be that cartoon character because if you don't they don't get paid was that an ambush i didn't watch that episode on five was it like four people just no it was so it was a it was uh

i think it was sort of um

a build-up to ridicule the manosphere and it didn't work out the way they wanted to and I knew like kind of going in i knew that that's how it was going to work um when the producers of the dr phil show um originally approached me they wanted tate they wanted andrew tate yeah and i said well i will try to get him if i can because i had his number i was talking to him and um

Andrew wouldn't set foot in the United States.

And so I said, then they asked me, said, well, can we get him on Skype or can we get him on Zoom or something like that?

And he still wouldn't do that.

Wasn't he in prison at the time?

No, no, he wasn't.

Oh, he wasn't prior to that.

So this was like in September, October of 2022.

So he didn't get picked up until the 29th of December.

And so he wouldn't do it.

And I said, all you got is me.

So I felt like I would like the understudy

for Andrew Tate.

But I knew going in that they wanted me as a proxy.

They wanted me to play the role of Andrew Tate.

And I said, I mentioned this.

specifically.

I said, I'm not here to be an apologist for Andrew Tate.

He does what he does and I do what I do.

So if you want to talk to me about this kind of stuff, I will be happy to give you a background and give you as much of the truth as I possibly can.

But I'm not here to apologize for him

because that's what they knew that they were doing that.

And the minute I walked into the studio and I sat down in the chair, I knew that that's where they were going with it and I was prepared for it.

But I don't think that they were thinking that I would be prepared for it and that I would get caught flat-footed.

And it didn't happen for them, fortunately.

But

I think in total, it was a really great opportunity for me.

And we got two episodes out of it.

And I think I did very well.

The consensus is that I did really well on that.

But again, it was this effort to sort of mischaracterize the manosphere.

So

when I hear people talking about the manosphere today,

you know, post-adolescence and post-well, we've got real men's issues kind of thing.

Nothing that I'm hearing right now is new.

It's the same stuff I was talking about in 2021.

It's the same stuff I've been talking about since 2012.

And so it's not, there's nothing novel about it.

But I think the problem is that a lot of people think that the Manosphere begins and ends with Andrew Taton, Pearl Davis, or Fresh and Fit.

And it's like, no, that's Fresh and Fit didn't really get the ball rolling until 2021.

I've been doing this since 2004.

So

to

build up or to talk about, you know, topics and things that are, that people think are novel right now is kind of like, well,

you know, you don't have the background in this to really know what you're talking about, but people, it's, it's what I call confident ignorance, right?

They're very confident in their ignorance.

They, they, they know what they're talking about.

Like, no, you don't, because if you did, you would realize just how old school this stuff is.

Yeah, it's been around.

We'll end off with your new docu series, Lonely, Lonely Fans, Lonely Fans.

Yeah.

Thought about.

So

Mike and I did.

Mike actually talked me into this too.

I wasn't going to do this because I'm always very careful about

doing

documentaries and talking to quote-unquote, you know, mainstream media and press.

But these guys weren't that.

The company that's producing this docuseries is called Rebel Media.

They are a very professional outfit.

They've done other shows and series before.

They asked asked Mike and I to do interviews, and originally it was about simping.

How do we stop simping?

We didn't know what the name of the documentary was going to be or anything like that.

And so they've kind of remarketed

the docuseries as a expose on OnlyFans

and how it has.

Let's say undermined intersexual dynamics in a very short time.

Because you got to remember, like in 2019, the OnlyFans of 2019 is not the OnlyFans fans of 2025 right now um and you if you look at the market share and you look at the money and you look at the the exposure and you look at the user base as well as the content producer base for uh for only fans it is exponentially just skyrocket and by the way it's a privately owned company it is not a publicly owned company um

and So they ended up doing some interviews of some really, some other big names, I would say, like Sadia Khan.

I don't really consider her a big name, but like they did, they had Sadia Khan on there.

They had myself, they have Mike Sartain, and essentially it's a, I don't, I want to say it's a four or a six-part series.

Um, they're shopping it around right now to like Hulu and Netflix and some other things, but the series is basically done.

They're just doing distribution at this point.

Um, the trailer is out, and I'll give you the link before so you can attach it to this video.

Um, but uh, the the trailer is pretty good.

Uh, and if the trailer is any indication, I think think it's going to be a very impactful docuseries.

Is it going to have the impact of adolescence?

I don't know, but I'm happy and I'm proud that I actually was included in all of this.

And

the producers and the directors have become pretty good friends of myself and Mike up to this point.

Nice.

To the point where they rented

an old, I want to say it's either a late 60s or early 70s.

I want to say if it's a Chevelle or a Camaro or something like that, so that Mike, and it was convertible, so that they could interview Mike driving around,

I want to say what, 215 or I-15 over here while they were doing an interview of him.

And he was talking about OnlyFans.

He's talking about sort of the mechanics and the economics of OnlyFans there.

But I already have a Camaro, so they interviewed me in my Camaro.

So I don't know why they wanted to, but it was still kind of fun.

We'll link it below, and we'll link your books and everything as well.

Thanks for coming on again.

Sure.

Come out, guys.

See you next time.

I hope you guys are enjoying the show.

Please don't forget to like and subscribe, it helps the show a lot with the algorithm.

Thank you.