Peter Roth: Why Cold Calling Is Stronger Than Ever in 2025 | DSH #1650

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Relationships are number one. If you go through life where the relationship is the most important thing, the money will always follow suit.
Yeah. People will throw money at you if you bring them more.

How hard is that? If I make you more than I charge you, you'll never stop giving me money. So just provide a good value.
Yeah, there you go. Try to get a service.
That's the basis of sale.

People overthink it. That's the basis of a sale.
A sale is like: if value exceeds price, a sale is made. That's it.

Yeah, if you can help people make more money, it's always the easiest thing to sell, right? Because your numbers will talk for themselves. Your history will speak.
I agree.

But people will focus on the the wrong things, I think. Well, I think when you're younger, you generally tend to do that, right? Because you need the money real bad.

Maybe it is coming from a place of privilege and/or just maybe accomplishment. Where when you're younger, you don't have the fortune of being there yet necessarily.

And so you're still, you have to put food on the table. And desperate people do desperate things.
And unfortunately, they're generally not good.

And so when you resort to desperate measures, then we all know where that leads you.

So then you get to the point in your life where you've already built those relationships and you're not chasing money anymore because you're already living somewhat comfortably.

Now you can really just focus on the core value of what makes you a good human, which is just being a good good goddamn human.

Just don't be a dick. Yeah.

All right, guys, back in the studio. We got Peter Roth here today.
He owns a call center. So we're going to talk about cold calling and what's new in the call center business, man.
How's it going?

I'm doing really good, man. How about you? Yeah.
Your team take a lot of calls today?

Probably 50 or 100,000, I'm guessing. Damn, that many? Oh, yeah.
Holy crap. So it's volume.

Oh, when we've got probably, I don't even know, I lost count, hundreds of agents now spread out throughout our call centers. Wow, yeah, you haven't replaced them with AI yet? You can't.

Oh, legally? Yeah, you legally can't. Oh, I didn't know they already operate in some third world country.
I didn't know they already introduced legislator around that.

Oh, yeah, TCPA banned that in February of 2024. Wow.
You can't use AI to... For cold calling.

You can use it

once you've got opt-in. It's like if someone already agreed to get your messaging or whatever.
Yeah, that's cool. You can

and you should do that then. I'm pro-AI, by the way.
I'm not like anti-AI. I'm super pro, but yeah, you just can't use it for like a cold calling and stuff like that.
Got it.

Yeah, if you want people out there, like, you know,

an army of phone calls going out there booking appointments for whatever business you're in, yeah, you're still, you're stuck with humans. And it's a good thing.

I feel like some of the voicemails I get are from AI, though. Oh, I bet.
No, people are flagrantly breaking laws every day.

I don't think there's anything new.

I'm not shocking anybody by that, right? But like, yeah, that happens all the time. But yeah, I mean, FCC is cracking down on it hard.
Oh, yeah.

Well, they have to because it's, you know, I mean, I joke about this on every podcast I ever go on, but it's like, if they were to legalize that, your phone right now would there'd be like smoke coming.

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Cell phone tires will be on fire. You know, there'd be so many calls coming up.
Dude, I will never sign up for a business funding offer ever again.

I get 10 voicemails a day. Oh, yeah.
And you can't get off of them. You can't.
Even when you block them, they got a new number. It doesn't, no, they call from a different number every time.

It makes no difference. Because you could buy a number for what, like, super cheap.
Yeah, it doesn't matter. They'll find out too.
Yeah, they're just cycling through them, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Crazy. No, that's a really good thing that they banned AI because a lot of people, like, a common misconception is that people think, like, you know, it's cold calling dead, you know.

And that's a huge misconception because it's actually stronger than ever now. Wow.

Because of AI, AI actually kind of like solidified a place in the world for cold calling because they've banned AI, it means now they're reducing the amount of junk and noise that's coming through to your phone.

Because if they were to open it up, well, then could you imagine the amount of garbage like

just enough garbage you get now, right? Could you imagine the sheer amount of garbage you would get then? Yeah. Right.

So like because they took those measures and have blocked that garbage and that noise from coming through, now it leaves room for like legitimate companies to actually still cold call homeowners and businesses or whatever and actually present them with legitimate offers.

So if you're in that type of business, good for you. You can actually still operate because there is still room in the world for legitimate honest cold calling.

It's a great point because I'd probably take an hour day in my email just sending shit to spam. Or deleting it.
Don't even, don't.

You're giving me like PTSD

cleaning my email check. Every morning I get like at least 50.
That's the first thing I do when I wake up in the morning because I have to reduce stress and anxiety.

So the first thing I do is get rid of all the junk. Yeah, same.
Yeah, but the same. Yeah, it's nuts.
So I hope my point being is I hope calls don't get to that point ever.

Well, that's, and that's what, that's my point, right?

Is like, as long as they don't change, which I don't see why they would, then there is still a place in this world, or at least in this country, for honest businesses to keep to keep that method of outreach.

Yeah. So is

the cold calling, because you mentioned you're doing like 100,000 calls a day, is that pretty strategic outreach? Are you just going for the masses on that? No, no, it's always strategic.

I mean, you can, I guess, theoretically take the shotgun approach, but we're far more surgical than that. And as anyone should be.

Like, if anyone is listening to this right now and they're contemplating, like, hey, maybe I want to build my own call center, I mean, you, you should try. That's always a good idea.

But yes, you should always take like the more surgical approach. Just, you know, blasting, just, you know, doing the whole like, you know, throwing and see what sticks to the wall methodology.

It can work, but you'll burn through a lot of money real fast. Yes.
I mean, data ain't cheap.

That phone numbers aren't free. Agents aren't free.

You know, software isn't free.

Everything costs money. So yeah, you'll burn through your budget real fast.
Are you buying like data lists a lot? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Same here.

But you have to be really, like I said, you got to be surgical. Like you have to be careful and thoughtful.
It's like, who am I going to reach out to?

I'm just going to call everybody in the city of Las Vegas or Denver or wherever.

Don't just call everybody.

Be thoughtful. So if you're a roofer or whatever, like whatever business you're in, think, or talk to ChatGPT, right? Like you don't even need me.
Talk to ChatGPT and ask it.

Who should I be filtering for like what type of homeowner should I be calling or whatever your audience is. Yeah, I might have to try the cold calls cold emails work really well for me.

Do they really? Yeah, I'm generating six figures a month just off cold email. That's outstanding.
I love to hear that. And it's and it's legal.

So I mean how legal yeah why the hell not but you just need good quality

high skilled yeah you need good leads and you need good people who know how to do it right. Good closers.

You need good closers but you also need like people who can run the software for you right I'm assuming you don't do it yourself right you've got people

I know how to do it but yeah, I got people helping me.

There's actually pretty cheap software these days. Yeah, yeah.
We use instantly. Instantly.
Yeah, for sure. Does Instantly do calls or no? No.
Oh, they don't? So that's a separate software? Yeah.

Yeah, they're good for email, though. They even warm up your emails.
So you don't go to spam.

I've seen that. Yeah, so shout out to them.
They don't even sponsor. I just genuinely find value in their service.
That's good.

Yeah, we were going to look into that, and I don't know why I didn't, but now you kind of got me. I mean, you're doing calls.
You might as well do emails. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's way more

cost-effective for way cheaper. Yeah, you could buy a good email list for like a couple hundred bucks.
I don't know how much phone numbers cost, but. Yeah, yeah.
No, that's a that's a great idea.

Yeah. And what are you selling through that? Like, what's your business?

So I have in-person events. So I can fill up.
It's really cool. Like I could go to any major city and get 500 people in a room.
No paid ads. All cold email.
That's really smart. Yeah.

I've done it 20 times. A lot of people can't even fill up an event in their own town.
But like I can go to Miami. I could go to New York, LA.

Texas. And it's your own event.
Yeah. Doing your own event.
Yeah, no sponsors, all self-funded. No.
No speakers. That's really smart.
Yeah.

so i i do that for cold email sometimes i'll do it for the podcast if i'm in a certain city so if i'm filming in like miami i'll email entrepreneurs there making 10 mil plus a year in revenue to come on the show

so i'll send that blast out get fill up guests for three days straight you know in and out that's so smart yeah that's you could get really targeted with it you could do job titles revenue number of employees yeah we tinker around with like apollo and stuff like that yeah yeah apollo's decent i use that one too what else do you do the best list one i don't know if they sell numbers i think they do sell numbers is listkit.io because they triple verify their leads.

Okay.

They've um and I test like open rates and stuff. I've tested Apollo instantly.
We're getting really nerdy right now. Barely anyone's gonna understand.
Yeah,

but it's fine. It's fine.
I love nerding out. And list kit has the best open rates.
Oh, that's great. Yeah.
Okay, you'll have to we'll have to we'll talk after

but what's the main offer you're pushing now? I'm sure you got a ton of good stories selling uh cold call offers.

You know, I don't well the funny thing is like now I'm so targeted now, you know, know, maybe just because I was about to say I'm 49, but that ended like three days ago. 50? Damn.
RIP 40s.

You're in Vegas, so. RIP 40s.

Yeah.

Yeah, I just turned 50. So,

no, now I'm like super, you know, back to the surgical reference. Now I'm really surgical with what I do.
I used to have shiny object syndrome. I think like every other guy.
Every guy.

Every entrepreneur has shiny object syndrome. I've had to, I've had to, maybe it's maybe watching too much hormosie or something.

Like really, really just targeting and just really focusing on the thing that I do best now. And so I turn down offers all the time.

You know, I've got people who come to me with really, really great business ideas, but I literally have to just reject

because if it's not going to bring in seven figures, I mean, why dedicate the time and effort? I totally, totally, totally agree with you.

If it doesn't have that potential, then why even waste a single minute? You know, I look at everything like I look at it as a marriage now, pretty much.

So for every relationship, every business venture, everything has to have like basically a hundred-year lifespan.

So, yeah, it's the same thing. But yeah, so now I don't do crazy offers.
I don't do crazy anything. I just do one thing.
Yeah.

I talk to companies who can see the benefit of having a call center built out for them and can get their sales reps into homes or in you know in meetings with company owners or whoever they want to be talking to.

Got it. Yeah, I think cold email would crush for you, dude.
Probably. I think you could land a lot of clients.
Because you already have the track record, which is the tough part.

You built the business out. You got proven companies you've worked with.
Yep. You know, that's the hard part.
The email part's easy. Yep.
Yep. You're absolutely right.
Yeah. Definitely round that up.

So you basically approach these companies and you help them build a call center so they can sell their services more. I don't even approach them.
They come to me thank you

word of mouth.

But yeah, yeah, yeah, mostly just word of well and you know talking to guys like you. Yeah.

You know, so I mean thankfully now I'm in a place where I don't really have to do too much advertising really anymore. I do very, very little of it.

So now, you know, most people just kind of tend to find me through the usual channels and through reputation and through treating people right and not screwing up too bad here and there.

Just treat people right and be committed to their success. I always say the same thing.

Relationships are number one.

If you go through life where the relationship is the most important thing, the money will always follow suit.

People will throw money at you if you bring them more money. How hard is that?

If I make you more than I charge you, you'll never stop giving me money. So just provide a good value.
Yeah, there you go. Try to get a service.
That's the basis of sale. People overthink it.

That's the basis of a sale. A sale is like if value exceeds price, a sale is made.
Yep.

That's it. Yeah.
If you can help people make more money, it's always the easiest thing to sell. Yeah.
Right? Because your numbers will talk for themselves.

Your history will speak.

Yeah. I agree.
I agree. But people focus on the wrong things, I think.
Well, I think when you're younger, you generally tend to do that, right? Because you need the money real bad.

And, you know, I think maybe this comes from a place of, I don't want to say privilege, but maybe that's the best way to put it.

But like, maybe it is coming from a place of privilege and or just maybe accomplishment where when you're younger, you don't have the fortune of being there yet necessarily.

And so you're still, you have to put food on the table and desperate people do desperate things.

And unfortunately, they're generally not good. Yeah.
And so when you resort to desperate measures, then we all know where that leads you.

So then you get to the point in your life where you've already built those relationships and you're not chasing money anymore because you're already living somewhat comfortably.

Now you can really just focus on the core value of what makes you a good human, which is just being a good goddamn human.

Just don't be a dick.

And everything will be basically fine. For sure.
When did this start taking off for you? Have you been in the call center industry for a while?

Not selling them the way that I do now. So I got into the call center space kind of by accident.
I sort of fell into it because

I was running a sales, a large sales organization in the world of solar, RIP solar. Yeah, that was a bubble, huh? I mean, it's still there, but it's definitely.

There's only so many

roofs in the world, right? Well, no, there's pl the well, the funny thing is, that's not the problem.

It's not the market

problem.

It's the value.

It's the perception. I was on stage in Austin last week, and I was talking to a room full of people, and I go, you know, how many people here? It was a home services-based event.

And I said, how many people by show of hands here are in solar? And quite a few people. And so they raised their hand.
And I was like, so you guys won't know exactly what I mean when I say this.

But I go, if I was standing, if I was sitting in a room full of 100 random people, not business owners, just random people,

and

it was kind of one of those free-flowing conscious, what's that term? Where you just, I say a word and then you say word back. What's that thing? You know what I mean?

I know what you're talking about.

So if I said the word solar, there's a really strong chance about a third of you people in this audience right now would be like, solar is a scam.

It's like a third of the audience would yell back. Now, if I did the same thing and I just said air conditioning,

ain't no one gonna be like, air conditioning is a scam. No one.
No one, not a single person.

There's your problem.

There's your problem with your industry right there. The bias.

You guys screwed it for yourselves. Now you get to lay in it, you know? Because they overpromised.
Oh, they did all kinds of, there was all kinds of scammy shit going on. Yeah.

So I mean, I could talk about it for all day, but there was all kinds of scammy shit going on. So I still do work with a lot of solar companies, just not as many anymore.

So now I work, you know, I love home services. That's just kind of an industry that I sort of fell into by somebody.
Roofing's a good one. Roofing is great.
I like HVAC. HVAC is my favorite.

Maybe because I'm partial to it, because I used to own an HVAC company for a long time. Also, a crazy story.

So, you know, now these companies just kind of find me, you know, because I talk to a lot of them on a daily basis.

And they all want to be in more homes, and they all want to talk to more homeowners, and they all want more business. And they all don't think about call centers.

So this is kind of a new thing for them. Yeah, it's not like the sexy lead gen method, right?

They want to be running ads and doing like

videos. Yeah, everyone still thinks about digital media, you know, as their primary source of marketing, which is great.

I'm not

anti-digital marketing i'm all for it too but like i think that's you know like now we're seeing a big resurgence in in traditional media coming back you know tv radio mailers all that kind of stuff because that's what happens when you ignore something for a long time yeah it starts working again because it's it's no longer saturated with a bunch of scammy offers so now it becomes once again revived with energy and is now a now a viable resource yeah so that's why mailers are now working again because people are like actually open and like oh i haven't received a mailer in a long time let me actually open this one you know i do open a lot of mailers actually isn't that interesting but 20 years ago you probably didn't 15 20 years ago you would you know it was piled up because that's what all everyone did yeah yeah they're getting good at making them appealing too yeah but now the equivalent is facebook ads yeah right now that's the equivalent of a mailer so it's like isn't that interesting how the tables have turned yeah right like now it's facebook ads because those are super saturated and with a shit ton of scammy offers so now people aren't paying attention to that so now they're back to the old school stuff call centers have been true and tested, I feel like.

For sure. You know, for a long time, right? For sure.
Yeah, they'll never even, you know, like Ryan Panetta, love you, by the way.

Even like Ryan Panetta is like anti-call centers, and I'd love to, I'll chat with you one day. You know, but he's, you know, he thinks it's a dying art.
You know, he thinks it's a dying channel.

And I, you know, totally disagree. But

yeah,

there's a huge opportunity, I think, for companies, you know, or it's actually, you know, we work with like fundraising, you know, like a lot of fundraisers and

charities and stuff like that.

And that's a huge new area that we're about about to crack into is kind of the whole charity side of thing and fundraising side of the thing.

Because it's the same thing, right? It's just

cold outreach. Yeah.

And again, they're not used to it. So once what was old is now new again.
So now there's a huge opportunity in that space. That's smart.
And they got massive lead lists, too, I bet.

And they're really good at that kind of stuff, too. They already have that.
Oh, yeah. They already have that.
Dude, I donated once to save the children. Not to put them on blast, but I get a mailer.

I get texts. I get emails.
Yeah. Like once a week, at least.
Isn't it interesting how good of a business they run though?

Could you imagine like if most businesses ran a business like that where everything was so methodical and so well thought through, like as soon as someone became a client or a donor or whatever, that they immediately became enrolled in this chain of events?

Yeah. And isn't that interesting how so how amazingly skilled they are at it, even though they're technically not-for-profit?

Yeah, it is very, you got to appreciate that because it's hard to gain a client, but to keep them, you know. Of course.
It's even harder. Of course.
Yeah.

So you want to make them happy, and to do that over decades is easy. And it's interesting you brought that up, the whole thing, because that's what I'm seeing in the HVAC space.

I don't want to keep drilling about HVAC, but that's one thing that I noticed about HVAC, where those guys tend to ride on their laurels a lot.

Because HVAC is a little bit unique as opposed to a lot of other business types, even just within the home services space.

So anyone who's watching this stuff, you're in roofing or you're in solar or business like that, where your lifetime value of your client is kind of like a one-and-done thing, pay attention because you're probably going to agree with me on this that you always are struggling because you always need a new client.

Like you always need to replace your clients with a new one because the cities they buy from you, they're done, right?

They've already made their once in a lifetime purchase from you because how many roofs are you going to buy in your life? Yeah. How many times are you going to get solar in your life, right?

It's a one and done.

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HVAC companies aren't like that. They have a very large pipeline of existing clients clients whose shit always breaks.
Smart. Right.
So for them, it's easy.

In other words, they're also kind of spoiled because they don't really have to go out and get new, drum-up, new business all the time because they could theoretically just survive on their existing book of business.

Wow. But therein lies the problem because then they get lazy.
They get complacent. They get complacent.
Yeah, because you got to replace your unit every 10 years. Yeah.

You probably have to repair it like five times, right?

In between. But that's what's so interesting about like the solar guys and the roofing guys is they're hustlers.

You know, they got that hustler mentality because they have to because it's a one-and-done thing. So they got to go get a new customer every damn day if they want to, if they want to eat.

So they bring a unique skill set to the table, whereas, like, these HVAC guys tend to get a little bit complacent.

And so I like opening up their eyes. I like showing them, like, hey, I'm glad you guys are doing well.
I mean, good for you. Kudos, but like, do you realize how much money you're leaving on the table?

Like, how much more business you could be doing if you just adopted this different mentality of like sink or swim? Yeah, you're making me want to get in the HVAC business.

It's it's a good, it's a really good thing. I think with the rise of AI, it's heading back towards brick-and-mortar, like blue-collar work, you know.

I was talking with Bradley about this very same subject exactly one month ago. That was literally the nature of most of our podcasts.

We were talking about how AI is obviously taking over most of the world, but how it's also protecting and kind of sheltering certain corners of it, which very,

you go back and you read the comments on our podcast,

all sorts of people just blasting and going, what are you talking about? In China, there's a robot for this and a robot for that. And yes, you know, flamer guy on, I get it.
I agree with you.

There are, of course, robots that can do all kinds of stuff. But like, let's also be realistic about this sort of thing.

Like, you know, when is it realistic when a robot will come into your house and replace a complex machine like an HVAC system and an AC system? By like 20 years. Bare minimum.
I mean, who knows?

Who knows? Maybe with the rise of like actual autonomous robots, like fully autonomous robots. Fine.
I'll give it to you then. But you know what? When that happens, we're all fucked.
Right?

Like, we're all fucked. We're not going to be having this conversation.
We're going to be having a very different kind of a conversation from a bunker.

I mean, I'm already preparing, and I think podcasts will be one of the last to go.

But I still think it's a threat because I'm listening to AI Joe Rogan episodes with him interviewing dead people, and it's damn good, dude. It's fucking nuts.
Like, most people cannot tell that's AI.

I know. It's creepy.
Yeah, it's creepy for sure. I get videos every day now when I'm scrolling.
I have to literally zoom in. It's not good now.

Well, and that's today, like, what's good, even six months or a year from now, that's it.

You won't be able to do anything. You won't be able to differentiate at all.

But the point of this conversation is like home services are

about as shielded as I suppose any industry can be.

Compared to other stuff, I'd say they're sitting well.

I mean, lawyers, for sure, are done. That's scary.
No, they're done.

I talk to lawyers at least weekly about this, and they don't hire paralegals anymore. Yeah.
They just use AI. Yeah, but what about when it's coming from? I mean, like, Jesus,

how many things have I gone to for Chat GPT? How many things have you gone to? I just put my blood work in yesterday. I mean, I'm getting health advice now, so I don't need doctors.

I get legal advice now. Yeah.

I would only need a lawyer if I have to go to actual trial, I think. Pretty much.
You know what I mean? Otherwise, I think I'm pretty good. Yeah, yeah.

I agree with you. So, yeah, home services companies, I think, are in a unique position where, like I said, until we have fully autonomous.

robots, which I don't think is going to be anytime in the near next, probably not at least for another 20 years or so. Yeah.

but yeah so i mean here we are drivers are done there's already uh in vegas they're spreading everywhere now these self-driving cars yeah i just seen my first waymo just like waymo yeah and luke's is another one okay it's like the square one i don't know if you've seen that one yeah um yeah drivers are done that's what it's like one of my most watched tick tock videos oh really me getting into a waymo yeah i gotten one in san fran and i it was weird it was super weird it was weird but i was a little nervous i'm like yeah that's the future though i'm quite nervous i mean to be honest it's probably safer than an uber though well you know what's well yeah I'm sure you're right.

I'm sure you're right. But did you see that video of some random Waymo? I don't remember where I was in the country.

This was just like two weeks ago, of some Waymo, like wandering around a golf course. No way.
Totally got screwed, totally just got lost on a golf course. Wow.

Just doing

20-point turns. Someone might hack out.

That's hilarious. There was one where some guy got stuck.
It was doing like a loop. He had to call them and have them manually shut off the car, which is kind of creepy that they could do that too.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I actually did hear that they do have a team of people who are monitoring like, you know, hundreds of them at the same time.
Yeah. Just in case something goes haywire.
Yeah.

I would hope that planes will be next. Yeah.
Planes will be next.

Yeah, that's freaky, but no, it makes perfect sense. I mean, because we have unmanned drones doing everything.
I mean, what's the difference? Yeah, most of the flights.

I've talked to pilots, most of the flight is already autopilot. For sure.
They're just there to make sure shit doesn't go wrong. But yeah, dude, future's here.

Having kids now, you got to really prepare them to learn some skills that can't be replaced easily. I know.

Like, I've got a daughter who's in college right now, and I'm having to have this conversation with her on a regular basis. Like, be careful with what you do because, I mean, it's coming for you.

What is she majoring in? Well, now she's in marketing. Okay.
Now she's in marketing. That's going to be hard to replace her.

Actually, I don't know. I mean, it

depends what aspect of it that you're doing. Yeah, like I went on ChatGPT and got marketing advice for the podcast, and it was pretty good.
It's way better. It's pretty solid.

Look, I follow quite a few pretty high-level business coaches, and I think the ones who are honest, the ones who aren't, just looking for a quick buck, they will come out and just straight up come out and say, now it's like, hey, you don't need a coach anymore.

Just get the pro-level chat GPT. Yep.
And just start talking on a regular basis. It's not good.
And just tell it what you really are trying to accomplish.

And just say, act like a high-level business coach. Yep.

The honest ones will say, you really don't need to be giving us your money anymore. I just saw Ryan Stewman talk about this.
Bingo. Yeah.
Hi, Ryan. Yep.
That's exactly what I'm saying.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. He said he paid, not to put them on blast, but he paid Patrick Bett David and Dan Martell for coaching.
That's right. We saw the same post.
Yeah.

He said AI was 10 times better. That's right.
Well, there you go. And those are two of the top business guys in the space.
That's right. So.
Yep. Yeah, I guess with marketing, you got to really

niche down and figure out how you can kind of do that. Yep.
Well, that's so funny. Yep, we read the exact same post.
That's exactly where it's. I tried going to Rutgers for marketing.
You tried what?

Going to Rutgers for marketing when I was in college. I didn't make it.
I went to Syracuse. Oh, yeah? Yeah.
Good old Syracuse.

You guys had a good basketball team. I don't watch sports at all.
Oh, you don't?

No, I was such like an alien and an alien planet when I was there because I was like the only, I was like this like good little Jewish boy.

I actually wore a Yamaka. Oh, you wore the thing? For the first year.
Dude, I will never forget. I played a basketball team and they all had them during the games.
I was like, what is this?

I never saw that growing up. Is it like Yeshiva University or something? Because they were

Jewish.

I don't know. Yeah, I can't imagine who else was.
They all walked in unison. It was impressive.
That's funny. It was really impressive.
I'll never forget that.

But yeah, dude, I was, needless to say, not the popular one. Yeah.

Huge introvert?

No, not at all. It was just like I came from

my parents thought I was not doing well in high school when I was a kid, and so they sent me to this little private Jewish high school.

And as a result of, you know, dating some Jewish girl, inevitably it just rubbed off on me. So now I became,

you know, a very

observant Jew. Wow.
It just didn't last very long.

Yeah. Damn.
Yeah. So you were a little rebellious growing up, huh? No, I wasn't bad.
No, honestly, God. I mean, compared to kids now, Jesus.

I was like a saint compared to the bad. Don't get me started.
No, I mean, I was like, other than, I think, breaking into a few cars and smoking some weed.

I was, I realize that first one makes me probably sound pretty bad.

But other than that, no, I didn't really do anything all that bad. Yeah.

I used to smoke with one head looking this way. It was illegal in Jersey.
Of course. Oh, that's for me.
Yeah, I had so much paranoia smoking weed in Jersey. Now it's legal.
Times have changed, man.

Well, I'm from from Colorado. It's like we kind of left.
You were the first state. I like led the change for that.
I used to fly there just so I could feel safe smoking. Are you serious? Dead ass.

Because when you're a no, I don't anymore. Now there's a lot of studies against it, not to like scare you.
No, other than good, because I don't, you know. Oh, you don't anymore? No, no, no.

I'm not a fan. Yeah, I'm actually not a fan.
No. I used to fight with my mom about it, but she was right.
Well, I just get lazy and tired and paranoid and hungry. Same.
All of that.

I'm like, I don't need help in any of those departments.

you know like i don't need any help eating more food i don't need any help feeling lazy i'm like geez i can just do that on my own i really don't need any assistance man those late night munchies eating the worst food yeah i'm cool i'm all good plus the shit is so strong now

oh my god yeah no kidding man because when i was a kid it was like it was bad not that big of a deal you you would barely get high yeah you could smoke a whole joint now it's like you take one hit and you're contemplating like whether you can't go into the yard yeah yeah exactly should i call an ambulance i've eaten an edible and i thought I was dying.

I literally was calling people. Have you ever had an edible? Oh, yeah, a few times.
Oh my god.

I just don't like any of that shit because I just hate the way it makes me feel. You're not in control anymore.
No, I hate the way it makes me feel. Yeah, I don't even drink anymore.
Really?

I have stopped drinking

almost entirely. But then again, I'm one of the few guys who openly says that he takes Ozempic.
So I have no problem. Oh, wow.
I have no problem. At least you own it.
Yeah, I don't know.

So were you a lot heavier than you are now? Yeah, I probably lost almost 50 pounds. Holy shit.
You got to get out of the call center, man. You're sitting down all day.

No, it's just genetics. That's just who I am.
But yo, I'm a huge fan. I'm like, hey, you know, for whatever, whatever works for you, whatever works for you.
Yeah.

You know, some people are like, you know, hey, you don't put in the work. I was like, I really don't care.
Do you lift? Are you active? I do. No, I do work out.

And the funny thing is, like, it's made me a healthier person because

it gave me that boost, right? Like, it kind of started pushing the momentum in the right direction. So, like, now I'm healthier than I was before.
Nice.

And, you know, whoever talks shit about it, it's like, I do whatever you want.

But like, I would much rather take whatever potential risks that may come out of it, even though all they're finding is more and more health benefits.

Like, on a daily basis, it seems like they keep coming out. It's hard to argue with peptides.
Well, peptides, too. Well, it's not exactly.
Yeah, yeah, it is. Yep, yep.

But like, it seems like there's more benefit. And in my mind, whatever benefits I get from having dropped 50 pounds way outweighs whatever risks may come associated with that.
That makes sense. Right?

Like, because you cannot argue that being 50 pounds heavier is just a terrible idea idea, no matter how you cut it. Yeah.
Like, that's always just a terrible idea. Yeah.

And then on top of that, it's completely destroyed my desire for alcohol. Really? So I, not that I was like a huge drinker before, but I would probably drink two to three drinks a day.
Like

without fail, every single day. Now, it's like two to three drinks a week.
Okay. Once a week, if I go out with my wife, that's the only time I drink.
That makes sense. She thinks I'm boring.

I do love you. But yeah, she thinks I'm boring now because I don't drink anymore.
Oh, she's still pounding, huh? No, she's not. No, that makes her sound really bad.
No, No, that's not true either.

But no, she's like, you know, she still likes to, you know, have fun with me once in a while. Yeah.
I just don't feel like drinking, so you know. She's like, you're boring.

I was at a point where I couldn't have fun unless I was drunk when I was younger. So I know what you're talking about.

Yeah, I get that. But now I'm the sober guy, just drunk DDing.
So you're totally done with drinking? I'll drink. I was just on my honeymoon.
I had a drink, but I'm not blacking out anymore.

You know what I mean? I used to drink that much. Yeah, I used to go hard.
Okay. Yeah, I was life at the party in high school.
Okay.

I was like, they call me tomato face because I'm allergic to alcohol. So, you know how Asians get really red? Yeah, yeah.
That's an allergy to alcohol. Oh, okay.

Yeah, so half of Chinese people, I think, have that gene break. Okay.
I didn't even know you were Asian. Yeah, half Chinese.
Okay. Yeah.
It's tough to tell with the curly hair and the height.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's true.
But yeah, dude,

I'm done. It's not worth the.

When did you stop?

When did I actually stop, stop? Probably like

four or five years ago. Oh, it's been a while.
Yeah. You miss it? No, not at all.
Yeah, that's it. Because the next day, shot.
Yeah, yeah. You know, you're not.
And you're young as hell. Can you?

2018. But that's my generation is not drinking.
Have you looked at the stats on this? Oh, I know. Yeah, liquor companies are struggling.
Oh, I know that.

Oh, that plus all the GLPs, you know, the weight loss drugs? Yeah.

Because weight loss drugs absolutely just crush, like I was just saying, they just crush your taste for desire for alcohol or really any drugs, really, most drugs. Yeah.

So you combine those things, you know, two things together. Like,

I'm shocked to see that bars are in business now. For real.
I'm shocked they're not just shutting down. Well, I know they're they're struggling.
Bars.

Oh, yeah. I'm really thankful that

I was around before. You've worn a lot of hats.
This whole thing. Yeah.

What's been your favorite business to own other than the call center? I mean,

the bar was fun. It's a bar.
How can it not be fun? I'm sure you got a lot of stories. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of stories.
I mean, it's a bar. Like, how could it not be fun? Yeah.

Were there fights there every night? No, it was a clean. It was a nice, it was a high-end.
It was like a cigar bar. It was a high-end cigar bar.

That's my type of scene, a cigar lounge, something like that.

I don't like the crowded, like younger, crowded bars. It was like, what's that place in Resorts World? Oh, eight lounge? Yes.
Yeah, that's my exact scene.

Calm. It was like that.
High-level people. Yep.
Yep. And then we had like DJs like on Fridays, you know, but it was kind of like a lounge.
It was a lounge scene. That makes sense.

So that's what it was like. Yeah.
So, I mean, that was super fun. But from a business perspective, I'm so glad to be out of it.
Yeah. It was not.

Any brick and mortar is tough, right? Any, well, there's that. And then it's like, you know, people who work at McDonald's, you know, they can't even handle the smell of fried foods anymore.
Yeah.

That's me. That's me with like the smell of the back bar.
like smelling like a dishwasher, a bar dishwasher. I gag.
I gag now. Yeah, I'm sure that smelled terrible.
And it was a smoking bar.

So then you combine the smell of like stale beer with ashtrays.

Am I making you hungry?

Now I know why I don't see too many of those mixed. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Usually it's just one or the other cigars.
That was like the last cigar bar in the state of Colorado. Oh, wow.

They got rid of them all. No, they didn't get rid of them all, but they just grandfathered them in.

So if you didn't exist before grandfathered yeah you couldn't deliver yeah because you need two different licenses so now you had the liquor and the yeah the and the cigar so now they're just you know the couple that are left that's it damn yeah

i don't know if i'd ever do brick and brick and mortar there's too much logistics with it it it is but i mean now you see this like huge you know this huge resurgence now with you know the cody sanchezes of the world and yeah and even the you know the homoses of the world that are you know pushing and you know the you know these guys who are pushing the you know boring business you know model you know which I agree, you know, from an entrepreneurial perspective, I think that there should be more attention paid to because everybody wants the sexy business.

And like anything else, you know, when that gets saturated, well, you know,

there goes that thing. But the boring business model, look, I mean, look, I'm in home services, right? Yeah.
That's about as boring as it gets.

And I think it's just like, you know, it's a young thing, right?

You know, people watch, you know, Shark Tank or whatever, and they just see, they get inundated with that idea that it's not a real business unless I somehow become the sexy face of that business

it's not a real business unless if it makes me insta famous right yep and the fact of the matter is like that accounts for like a very small yeah that doesn't happen it's a very very small percentage of businesses that are like that most of them are really quite boring and on Shark Tank you're only seeing the highlights also well you're only seeing the businesses that are TV worthy you're only seeing the businesses that those producers know will keep viewership right interested because there's a lot of people that go on and it never airs oh for sure because they're just too boring yeah You know, there's like, you're not going to see roofers on there or companies on there.

It's not that. It's never going to happen.
It's just not that exciting for TV. Yeah.
So, no,

I think that people should be going back. You know, look, from a business owner's perspective, like you just said, you know, there's a lot of problems, obviously, with brick and mortar built

businesses, right? Just too many buttons to push and levers to pull. I agree with that model, but not if you play your cards right, like, you know, the whole like laundromat model, right?

Like, there's plenty of people who are, you know, gazillionaires off of just running laundromats. Yeah.
What a cool business model. You know, like, you do nothing.

Like, you don't have to step foot into your business almost, or really ever. Yep.
You know, what a, what that's a great model. I mean, it's as unsexy as it gets.
True. Yeah.

There's people that own five McDonald's and they're making a million a year. Sure.
You know? Yeah, for sure. There's, I was, God, I don't remember who I was talking to.
It was just last week.

A guy who owns like 80-something McDonald's. He's never stepped foot into any one of them.
Wow. No, he's never stepped foot into any of them.
That's crazy.

Yeah, not one of them. Yeah.

I'm of the belief, like, I ran boring businesses to initially build my capital. You know, I did e-commerce, dropshipping, boring stuff, and

don't miss that too much. But I'm at the point now where I want to have fun and have purpose and meaning.
Good. Well, look, I mean, ultimately, a business can only succeed if you love what you do.

Right. Right.
I mean, if you're starting a business just for making a few bucks, I mean, good luck. That's really hard.

It can happen, I think, once you've reached a certain level of maturity in your life that you're just coming at business from an investor approach.

You know, once you're coming at business, it's just, I'm just here to put the money in and get the money out, and this is just a glorified ATM machine to me.

But because you already have that skill set in place, and you're not walking into this business totally unprepared, going, how do I run this thing? I've never run a laundromat.

That would be a huge problem.

But if you're coming at this from an investor approach, because you have already built your way up, you know, business acumen to that point in your life, and you know the fundamentals of business and you know how to run them and you know how to delegate things, then by all means, then you can do whatever the hell you want, right?

The world's your oyster at that point. But if you're young, then I think it's a terrible idea.
If you're young, you have to start with what you love because you don't have the knowledge base yet.

You still have to build up that knowledge base so that you can become one day that hands-off investor. Yeah, you got to fail first.

Who can just kind of throw money at things because he knows, like, this thing's going to work. Cool.
Let me throw some cash at that. And let me throw some cash at that and watch the dividends pay off.

But that takes time to get to that point in your life. Yeah, it's tough to learn that just through.

You can't. There's no books.
Yeah, they sell. There's no books or books.
How to invest or? No, there's no course or books. No, that takes, you have to fall down a hell of a lot.

You have to fall down a lot. Or you have to be a savant.
I mean, right, sure, maybe there's one or two business savants out there that have already understand that model.

But I think you have to have been in the business world a long time and have failed. Yeah.
I'm not saying bankruptcy. I'm not saying, you know, shut your doors and lose your house.

I'm not saying that. But

everyone fails, right? I mean, that's the basis of really running any successful business is the failure that gets you to that point.

You had to have failed so many times because with each failure comes the learning lesson and coming out the other side healthy.

You had to have accrued enough of those failures in order to just be able to look at any business model and go, I already know exactly what I'm going to do. I'm going to fall down.

I know exactly what that fall is going to look like. I know how I'm going to get up.
I know I'm going to fix it and it'll be done in 24 hours and boom, I'll come out on the other side

cranking money out of this ATM machine. Yeah, statistically, I think you're correct because hedge fund managers have not outperformed the SP 500.
I think 80% of them are reporting lower gains.

That's right. And these are the best best investors, quote unquote.
Right, investors who have zero operational skill set. Experience, right? Zero operational skill set.

They come with a Harvard degree, but they don't actually know how to run a real business. They read a lot of books.
Good for you.

And then they take a fee of your gains when they get less than the S ⁇ P. Well, here's the business, but that's their business.
That is their business, right? Their business is between the lines.

That's their business. It's not operating the actual end, you know, it's not operating the actual business itself.
It's how to capture money in between. That's their business and good for them.
Yeah.

What have been some of your favorite investments? I don't invest in anything but myself. Oh, yeah.
I don't.

I mean, that's not entirely true. I do now put money into like, I work with a couple real estate investors.
You know, I kind of fund some of their projects. Private money lending?

Private money lending. Yeah.
Yep, exactly. That's really about the only area for the most part now where I'm really kind of deploying capital into something that isn't my own.

Because where am I going to get the kind of returns that I can produce? Yeah, you're getting 15% on that, right?

15

PML? More than that. Really? More than that.
Wow, they're giving you more than that? Yeah. Holy crap.
Yeah. So they're fixing and flipping quick.
Yeah. Well, just high volume.
Got it.

High volume with just quick need for cash. And that's still working right now? That strategy? Interesting.
Yeah. Because I thought the real estate market was toast.

Depends where you're operating. And, you know,

right now they're just buying up, you know, they're buying properties with cash. It's a buyer's market right now, right? And they're using PMLs

to buy these properties with cash. So it can't be done.

But otherwise, no, I don't, I don't, you know, I mean, true to Ryan Stewman, I was just talking with him, and we were just chatting about this exact subject of where to deploy capital.

Yeah, because he's been screwed. He's in like four FBI cases from his investments.
Oh, well, maybe. I don't know if you knew that, but he's been posting about it.

Maybe that's, maybe that's why he was sharing this information

about

this exact same subject. And he was talking, you know, I was like, hey, what kind of things are you investing in? He's like, I don't touch shit now except for stocks.

I'm like, wow. I can't blame him.
He's lost millions investing in funds. Yeah, I get it.
You get burned enough times.

I've been burned a few times.

I was not doing enough due diligence, so I'm going to just take accountability, honestly.

I think that's important when you're investing in stuff, not to put the blame on other people for failing. For sure.
So

but it happens, right? Yeah. We've all lost money on an investment.
But to me, back to answer your question, I think anyone who's listening to this and if you're, you know,

ultimately all day long, I would still say

you're never going to get a better return on your investment than agreed

to make of you. I'll

you because your brain is what makes you well because I mean

you're going to always give yourself better returns all day long yeah I mean look at what you look at this empire that you built for yourself yeah invest in the equipment invest in what's your ROI every time you put a buck into this thing it spits out what I mean I'd be I don't know if you've ever done the math but it's crazy probably spits out a hundred you know for every dollar you put in or something close something close to that probably yeah can you rep you can't replicate that yeah not even no when I spend 20 on a book.

The ROI is actually insane. And you know, I was actually listening to Hormose about this, and it was another YouTube channel called The Hamptons, which is a very interesting channel.

Is that Sam Parr's podcast or no?

I don't think so.

It's a community for like founders. Yeah, that's Sam's community.

Yeah. Yeah.

He's done some really, really interesting studies on this. But what they have found is that generally speaking,

once business owners reach a certain level of wealth, they stop caring about producing more wealth because you reach a point where it's like, well, I have enough money now.

I don't need to keep accruing more.

Now you get to the point where it's like, how do I just keep it? How do I just not put it at risk?

And I think that's where they also kind of realize, like, the best return on investment I ever got was myself.

Now,

if I'm going to try to, and this is where my comment on Hormozi comes in, because he also kind of parrots that same model where he's he's like, stop trying to look at other avenues to be your primary source of income because your primary source of income will never,

nothing will ever outproduce yourself.

Instead, just keep your money safe and do exactly that. Keep it safe.
Great advice. Keep it safe.
Because we try to treat our money. Stop risking it.
Stop trying to go for home runs.

You know, you made a buck. Now you're going to go take that buck and hand it over here and get another home run.

And then while that's out working for you, you're going to put it over here and try to get another home run.

And then you get screwed with one of those avenues. Instead of doing that, just focus on yourself as your primary source of income.
And then everything else is just wealth preservation. And that's it.

So simplify. Great.
And now you've opened up, and now you've opened up mental real estate to once again reinvest back into the bank of yourself. Yep.

I've lost my money twice for the exact reason you're saying because I tried to apply my mindset to investing that I had in business. Yeah.
I went all in. That's my mindset.

When I go on a business, I'm all in. Of course.

As you should be. Yeah, because I'll put the risk all on myself because I'm betting on myself.
But when it comes to investments, you can't really do that. That's right.

So that's why I lost my money twice.

So, what was it? I'm curious.

What was it? Where?

How did it happen? First time was sports cards. It was a boom in the market like probably five years ago, six years ago.
I don't know if you saw that.

Just overinvested, over-leveraged, and I was buying the wrong cards and then lost it all. The market crashed.
Okay.

And then built up my net worth back to 10 million with crypto lost all of it in crypto yeah crypto crashed i was investing in meme coins in risky coins um so the volatility on these coins because they're all coins you could go down 80 90 in a day sometimes hours

it's not like stocks panic attacks yeah yeah it's not i would never put my money like could you imagine like you know i'm assuming most people who are watching this are business owners yeah for the most part like anyone's watching this could you imagine like, if your business crashed 90% in a day?

That's crypto. I'd have to change my shorts right now if that happened.
Yeah. That's terrifying.
It is nuts. But again, this proves the point.
Like, once again, this proves the point.

That is almost can't happen. Right.
If it's your own business, that almost can't happen because you have safeguards in place and you know your business better than anything else.

So you know that just can't happen. So isn't that creepy and crazy that like here you were deploying all this money into a particular channel that can just plummet like that?

Now it can go the other direction too. And it did at first.
But isn't that just the definition of fucking gambling now? Crypto is gambling. Didn't we just define what gambling is?

Yeah, outside of the top 10 coins, crypto I would say is gambling. If you're buying anything outside the top 10.
Okay.

Even some in the top 10. But you're heavy into Bitcoin right now, aren't you? Ethereum, but

I had a lot of Bitcoin. Well,

I don't know shit about crypto, so like why?

Because I've just stayed away from it. Bitcoin's a finite amount.
There's 21 million coins, never will be made again. And a a lot of hedge funds and VCs are getting into it.

So it got up to 120,000 a coin this year. It's at like 89 as we film this.
So why Ethereum?

Why was that your avenue as opposed to?

More risk, but more reward, I guess. Because it's not the same price.
So you're giving it to the game. Like the market cop.
Yeah, it's basically gambling. It's a gambler.
Yeah.

Well, when I was younger, yeah. Now

I haven't bought anything new for years. I've just been sitting on what I have.
Yeah, sitting on it. Because after you lose that amount of money, you're not going to be

taking the same risks anymore. That's it.
Yeah. Yeah, you go through a traumatic event, a PTSD type event like that.
So as I get older, I don't chase those crazy gains anymore.

I'm cool with like 10, 20% a year on stuff I invest in. Well, there you go.

Which isn't like sexy, but. Well, but then the way you just go right back into real estate.
Yeah. And now you can be super, super safe.
Yeah.

And you get all the tax benefits that come with it too, and all the multitude of other benefits, too. Yeah, especially now that I'm married and I want to have kids.

If I were to lose everything, it's not just me anymore. So I can't just

ever do that again. Yeah, but that's okay.
I mean, you're supposed to take risks when you're young. That's yeah, now I'm glad it happened.
I needed it. Sure.
I needed to wake up.

Yeah, isn't that interesting? You needed it. I thought I was going to be a billionaire off crypto.

I needed that humbling experience. You know what I mean? Isn't that interesting? I thought I was going to be a centi-millionaire off selling master in the pandemic.
Yeah.

I mean, every failure, and I've had, I mean, I had a failure that was borderline. I had my catastrophic failure not that long ago for me.
It was like... It was about

two and a half years ago. And it was just one terrible business decision that I made, which I didn't see coming now.
Of course, you know, to me, it's like a, you know, hindsight.

Yeah, to me, it's like a semi coming at me head on now with its brights on, how I didn't see it, but well, there you go.

Uh, but yeah, I mean, I had that, I had that realization, and I'm super thankful. And I came back, I came back 10 times more successful from that one event

than I ever would have, I think, had I not had that. Exactly.
That event put me through such, not only

was it traumatizing, and so obviously there's huge lessons that came out as a result of that traumatization,

but it forced me to buckle down and put aside all my pain

and discomfort and buckle down and just say, fuck it, I'm going to do whatever the fuck it takes right now to fix this mess that I just got myself into.

And I just buckle down like I've never have before in my life.

It's like, you know, it's like the stories that you hear from people who have just been quote-unquote fuck-ups their whole lives, younger people, and they go to the military, and that's where, you know, or they go to prison before they find Jesus.

You know, the classic story. I found Jesus.

Big surprise, right? Classic?

That was my finding of my proverbial Jesus. Yeah, I think we all go through something like that.
Sure. Yeah.
Yeah. I've never met an entrepreneur that didn't have some similar story to that.
Really?

I think it's like a rite of passage, honestly. I think it has to be.
Like, you got to have that one fail.

I actually met, I didn't meet him, but someone told me he met a billionaire once, and he said he doesn't work with people that haven't had a failure before.

That makes sense. Yeah, he doesn't become business partners with someone that hasn't had a company like fail.
And that's one of the things, right? Like, that's part of running a company.

It's like you have to go through recessions. You have to go through tough economic times.
You know, when I started my first business, I started it in November of 2001. So two months after 9-11.
Wow.

That's when I started my first business. During a recession.
Yeah. One of the worst in the entire history.
And so I learned very quickly.

I didn't know anything else. That was my first, you know, that was my first foray into business was, well, welcome to this shitstorm.

Yeah. So, but I'm so thankful because it's like I didn't know any better.
I didn't know good times. I only knew these incredibly challenging times.
And that's what I got thrown into.

So I'm like, and I kind of, this sounds weird, but I wish the same on every aspiring business owner. I wish that they would only start in a difficult down market

because there's nothing worse than thinking you're just the smartest kid on on the block.

There's nothing worse than thinking you're hot shit because then you will eat a face full of humble pie real fast. Well, now's the time.
It looks like we're about to be in another recession.

I know they've been saying that for years, but it actually seems like we're there now. It does.
It does. And actually the Bitcoin crash looks like it's actually a bit of a precursor.

It's a bit of a canary in a coal mine. It actually, yeah, if you follow Bitcoin crashes with recessions, there's a similarity there.
Yeah, and so that's

where a lot of economists are saying that it's now, it is the canary in a coal mine. It is the precursor to a big recession about to come.

And then that the only thing that's actually been holding, that's propping up our economy this whole time has been AI. AI.
If it wasn't for AI, we would have already been in one. Yeah.
Easily.

Yeah. So get ready, guys.
Buckle up. It's going to be a rough few years, maybe a few months.
Who knows how long it'll be? I agree.

Dude, this was great. Where can people? Do you do coaching or anything? Do you have any products? No, I don't do the coaching thing.

I just help companies. I help companies get more business.

That sounds cheesy because

everyone says that. No, I help, here's what I really do: I help companies get their sales guys into homes to sell those people stuff, right?

So whether you're in roofing or HVAC or even solar, but electrician, plumber, whatever, whatever it is that you do, especially in home services, but now we're doing a lot of work with real estate agents because this is a, you know, it's the same concept, right?

Just call a homeowner, like, hey, you want to sell? Yes or no, right? It's not that hard.

And so, you know, now we're helping companies like that, you know, generate tons and tons of business using this. What was once old is now new methodology.

So, nice. So, if you're interested in that, guys, we'll link your Instagram for them to reach out to you.
Cool, for sure. Cool.
Thanks for coming on, man. That was fun.
Great to meet you.

Check them out, guys. Peace.
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