Michael Terpin: What Billionaires Aren’t Telling You About Bitcoin’s Next Cycle | DSH #1622

There was just Satoshi saying this is going to change the world.

And if you believe it, I mean, he has a famous saying where he's trying to explain to me: he said, If you don't believe it or don't get it, I'm sorry, I don't have enough time to explain it to you.

There's another saying that was not by him, which is if people get Bitcoin at the price that they deserve.

And so, the people who learned about it really early and got it and kept it, they're billionaires now. You have 10,000 Bitcoin, do the math.
And again, buy at the bottom, sell at the top.

And people forget that. As Warren Buffett once said, you can only tell when the water's gone out who's been swimming naked.

Okay, guys, we got Michael Turpin. Look at the outfit he's brought today.
Let's go.

Represent. Yeah, I'm happy to be here.
That's uh, so this story behind uh this outfit is, um, I have a tailor in Shenzhen who's who's awesome.

And he does a lot of the stuff that I used to get from the tailors in Hong Kong, but uh, about like a quarter of the price.

And uh, it's in this place called Lu Hao City that's got you know 100 tailors and then like a half an acre, no, more, acres and acres of fabric. Wow.

And so his wife and my girlfriend went looking around for something that would have tigers on it because, you know, when I'm in Vegas, I do live in Tiger Mansion, as we call it, which is the former Mike Tyson home where he kept his tigers.

Yep. And I bought that a number of years ago and we use it as a great event spat.
Yeah, your team has phenomenal events there. I've been to some of them and it's so cool seeing the tiger pits.

I mean, we saw those in movies going up. And yeah, that must have been a bucket list item for you, huh? To own that house.

Yeah, you know, I mean, I never, you know, sort of dreamed of like, you know, sort of having iconic celebrity mansions. But when it came up, you know, it seemed like the thing to do.

And it took some renovation, but I feel like I'm a

historical kind of custodian of it. I try to keep it, you know, very...

uh close to what you know mike tyson's original vision was so we really have kind of not really changed anything just sort of, you know, updated it. Not updated, just sort of like restored it.

Yeah, you still have all the old photos on the wall, right? Yep. The ancient paintings.
They're pretty old.

Yeah, and also, you know, the giant life-size lions that he had commissioned, I believe it was from Versace

on the top floor, and the big mural that has all the paintings of all these boxers. It's an entire story tall.
And yeah, it's just in the lion fountain when you first walk in.

And yeah, so he bought it,

you know, in the mid-90s. It was actually originally owned by the Damani family that built the Terapicana.

And he just sort of like did his own Mike Tyson touches to it and turned it into something far more iconic. I love it.
And with your events, what's sort of the mission with having those?

Because there's some high-quality people that attend those. Yeah, you know, I mean, it's everything from, I mean, it's two acres.
It's got an 80,000-gallon swimming pool in it.

It's tigermansionlv.com. So you can see some of the things.

And, you know, we've done everything from 500-person events that are just like wild, crazy indoor, outdoor parties with, you know, music and, you know,

fire dancers and things like that. I mean, obviously we have security, keep it like, you know,

tame within the neighborhood boundaries,

just like the Michael Jackson mansion does in the historic district of town.

I think that's sort of our other kind of like, you know, sort of quote-unquote competition for like, you know, iconic events.

And,

you know, it's, I think Vegas just, you know, know, needs to have more of these,

you know, kind of homes off of the strip that can be used for events, mainly corporate events,

you know, movie shoots,

influencer,

you know, activations, and everything down to like just private dinner parties.

You know, I mean, we've got a group in this week that's just, you know, coming in and doing something for about like 40, 50 people.

So otherwise, so anything from like, you know, dinner in the iconic sort of dining room with all the chandeliers to,

more of a

larger event that you know we can hold about you know 500 people and actually a little bit more if I sort of spill over into the

home next door that I bought with my ex-wife and we still have a deal where I can expand over to that at times and that's you know that that's what he bought as his entourage home so he bought two homes when he uh got out of prison in the mid-90s and had a lot of checks waiting for him to fight hollyfield etc wow and uh yeah so there's a great great story behind it and just trying to keep the tradition living.

Did you get to talk to him when you bought the property? No, because I didn't buy it from him. I bought it from the person who bought it out of bankruptcy 20 years earlier.
Got it.

But, you know, I've met him a couple of times. I've not talked to him since this happened, but I've let people who he works with know about it.

And so I'm presuming at some point he might want to see what we've done to restore it. Did you tell him about Bitcoin to buy some?

Well, you know, he has actually been involved in Bitcoin in the past. He had a

Mike Tyson Bitcoin ATM a number of years ago. And so he certainly, and he, of course, had his, he sold millions of dollars of NFTs.
So he's no stranger to the crypto world. Good segue, by the way.

Yeah. Smooth.
All right. You're still all in on Bitcoin.
You're still pretty optimistic about it? Absolutely. So I'm not a Bitcoin maxi.
I call myself a Bitcoin preferentialist.

So I realize, so Bitcoin maxis,

and I know a lot of them because I've been in Bitcoin for over 12 years

are the ones who basically are, Bitcoin is like, you know, the holy trinity. It's the be all, end all.
As Michael Saylor says, there is no second best.

And some get to the point where they're like, you should arrest Vitalik. Everybody who has does anything other than Bitcoin is a criminal.
You should throw them in jail.

I basically believe that Bitcoin is the original blockchain. It's the original digital asset.
It's the one that everything else is built upon or at least

influenced by.

But I don't think since Ethereum never had the flippening back in the ICO era, I don't think that anything will ever pass Bitcoin in terms of overall market cap. I think it's store of value.

If you look at gold, gold is bigger than

pretty much anything out there in the stock market and it's continuing to grow.

Asset classes are different than sort of companies.

And Bitcoin is an asset class. And it is growing faster than gold.
So at some point, it will overtake gold. I mean, gold right now is about, I think, almost $20 trillion as an asset class.

Bitcoin, if it gets to a million dollars, would be that size. Of course, gold by then will probably be higher.
So maybe it's got to get to a million, five, two million.

But that's all, I think, an if and not a when. It's proven itself.
Now, the other, you know, tens of thousands of digital assets, you know, are kind of a different couple of categories.

They're called altcoins.

And, you know, I believe that they certainly have a place in terms of, you know, Ethereum, for example, which I was involved in the launch of.

It is something that Vitalik was a Bitcoin, you know, early Bitcoiner, actually one of the founders when he was 16 years old of Bitcoin magazine. Wow.
Yeah. And

he wanted to build things on Bitcoin, but found it frustrating because

it is intentionally sort of calcified in its code so that, you know, it's hard to be changing all the time and still be a store of value.

And so he wanted to go and build, his vision was to have a world computer computer where you could actually program on a blockchain. And that's what Ethereum's vision was.

And that's really what they've done. And, you know, they've been remarkably successful in building several hundred billion-dollar market cap around that.

You know,

DeFi was not built on Bitcoin. NFTs were not built on Bitcoin, although you have ordinance now.

You know, many of the most iconic things that have been built in the Web3 world have not been built on Bitcoin. They've built on Ethereum.
And now there's, you know, contenders to the sort of Ethereum

throne in terms of Solana some other ones. And so I think it's healthy to have the marketplace of ideas.

And, you know, the Bitcoin Maxis, they've now gone and built things in what they call Bitcoin layer two.

And they're like, hey, everything will eventually be on Bitcoin. Default will be on Bitcoin, et cetera.
That's their vision. It may take a long time.
It may be not as fast.

But, you know, if you're able to go and settle on Bitcoin, certainly you don't have to worry about the underlying

platform going away. I saw on another interview, someone someone asked you, do you think Bitcoin will hit a million dollars a coin? And I think you said yes.
Absolutely. It's pretty high.

Yeah, well,

I remember when Bitcoin first came out and it first hit $1,000 and some Wall Street analysts started to cover it. And Gil Lurie, I believe his name was, who was

with Wedbush Morgan at the time, he wrote a report saying that Bitcoin will either go to zero or to a million dollars. And he put the chance of it getting to a million dollars to be one half of 1%.

And people thought that was outrageous. Wow.
If you took that bet, you made a pretty good bet. Of course, the bet you would have made would have been to buy Bitcoin at a thousand dollars.

You're up 100x right now. And that was actually even a high for that cycle.
I mean, it had started the year when it hit $1,000.

It started the year at $11, went all the way up to $1,200, and then a year later, it crashed down to $171. And then the next cycle, it ended up going to $20,000.

And that's really what the four-year cycle is all about.

And I've tried to explain that to investors, you know, very smart people who are investors successfully in real estate, in commodities, in tech startups, and they never quite got what I was talking about.

Maybe it's because they didn't understand the white paper. I have the white paper in my book and I annotate it because sometimes people will get thrown off by the equations in the middle of it.

That was just showing off to other cryptographers. I mean, the juicy stuff is in the first and the last pages.

And if you just read that and understand what he says, you can see that he really created something novel that, you know, is changing the world. Yeah.

I mean, these days you could buy a lot of things with crypto.

And it's not so much about what you can buy. It's really.
So Satoshi's original vision, peer-to-peer cash, failed. But it enabled what has become peer-to-peer cash, stablecoins.

If there was no Bitcoin, there would be no Tether. And I helped with the launch of Tether, too.
Wow.

And, you know, and the people who launched it originally in the United States,

you know, in Santa Monica, California, Brock Pierce and Reeve Collins

and

Craig, the CTO, Craig Sellers,

you know, they ended up selling it because they were afraid of regulation. So they sold it to Bitfinex, which then spun it off to, it's now out of El Salvador.

And the people who ended up buying it and now running it are now multi-billionaires. Crazy.

And, you know, I mean, the idea that Brock had originally was just, you know, hey, you know, have a coin that can be used to have a US dollar equivalent because in the early days of trading, you know, you had to go and if if you wanted to go buy Bitcoin and trade it for Ethereum or trade it for Litecoin or whatever,

you know, you had to go and it would take sometimes two or three days to go and settle through a bank account.

If you wanted to arbitrage between, you know, the premium that you were paying for periods of times in, say, Korea, they call it the kimchi premium.

You know, there was a time where you could buy in Canada and sell in Korea or in China and make like a 20%.

I remember that, yeah. Right.

And so, but the only people who were able to take advantage of it were ones who were dual citizens of say Canada and China because they would have both bank accounts tether took away that that arbitrage and it basically made it to you just simply you know exchange it on any exchange for a US dollar denominated coin not have to deal with the banking system and that was you know one of the whole purposes of Bitcoin was to not have to deal with the banking system the white paper was written you know right at the height of the financial uh crash in you know october of uh 2008

you mentioned uh people were scared of regulation back then is that still the case with crypto and the Trump administration?

You know, the early people in any technology want something different than the mainstream.

If you ask the, you know, the D-Gens that came in, the crypto anarchists, et cetera, they're like, no, this is to bring down the system. This is to get away from banks.

This is to collapse the governments. This is to, you know, this is following the ethos of the cypherpunks.

And I have a whole chapter in the cypherpunks who, you know, were 30 years before the creation of Bitcoin, but they sort of set the whole idea of that code allows you to go and have an entire economy that is separate from the state.

Money and state were separated for millions of years or thousands of years, as long as civilization's been around. People had gold.
People had, you know, fur pelts. They had seashells.

They weren't issued by the government. Gold is really what started then letting the government buy the gold and issue coins.

And then governments over time, and you know, there's a very good book that, you know, sold over a million copies that I mentioned a few times in my book, which is the Bitcoin standard.

That's always number one on the on the Amazon list. I have a hard time getting above number three because they're number one and they count Michael Lewis's books on FTX as being a Bitcoin book.

So it's usually number two. Number three ain't bad though.
Number three is not bad. And I get there whenever

there's a good podcast that people go out and buy the book. I love it.
I had one recently with Bonnie Blockchain that just like actually sold out Amazon for a while. Wow.
Yeah.

We'll link this in the video for people watching. Fantastic.
Yeah, it's a good book, man.

I read it on Audible, Bitcoin supercycle i mean you called this years ago it's impressive thank you i mean this has been like was it a calculated risk for you when you first got into it like did you see it becoming where it is now i saw it becoming this way but i didn't go as all in as some people do so and i i still diversified into real estate my ex-wife is a real estate maximist and so we were always uh you know kind of having conversations about how much you know hey bitcoin just went from a hundred to a thousand how much we cash out and put into a home and she'd be like all of it and And I'd be like,

no, no more than half, you know, that type of thing.

And so, you know, Michael Saylor was like one of the first people to say, diversification is not a good thing.

If you have the best asset, why do you want to sell it for a second best or third best or fourth best asset? And, you know, had I had that philosophy, I would have thousands of more Bitcoin right now.

But I'm still doing okay. And I've got some great homes.
Yeah, can't complain. All right.
And you were early on Ethereum, you said, and Tether, which is even crazier. Yeah, Tether, obviously,

you know, you couldn't buy Tether and like have it go 100x was a stablecoin, right? Yeah. And I wasn't an equity owner of Tether.
I just, I just helped with their marketing.

I launched them and I launched Ethereum. So again, my way of getting into

Bitcoin and that led me into crypto was in, you know, I started hearing about it in 2012, but I didn't really go all in until early 2013

when I got invited to the first Bitcoin Foundation conference by Brock Pierce.

And, you know, I then all of a sudden saw the light. I sort of, you know, because about a year earlier, I was invited to go to a,

you know, sort of a future of money conference in San Francisco. And they had somebody from one of the earliest Bitcoin exchanges that got shut down because of regulation in 2012.

um called trade hill and i had a conflict so i sent the head of my uh san francisco office of my pr firm and i said i'm interested in this bitcoin what do you think and she's like, oh, it'll never work.

They are so smoking crack. Now, had I gone, I would have probably had the same reaction I did a year later, which is like, oh my God, this is going to change the world.

And as one of the co-founders, who's a friend of mine now, Ryan Singer of Trade Hill said, yeah, not only would you have had the same reaction, but you would have started buying Bitcoin at $4 instead of $120.

Jeez.

And of course, people who got in a year earlier than that were buying it a dollar. That was like, for example, Roger Veer.

You know, Roger Veer,

you know, he famously,

you know, learned about Bitcoin. He was living in Japan.

He read the white paper. He was like, this can't be true.
If this is true, it's going to change the world. He literally spent several days.

I've heard him tell this story, and I talk about it in my book. He spent several days trying to disprove it.

He literally stayed up night after night to the point that he got hospitalized for exhaustion.

And this is a young guy in his early 30s who, you know, was a martial arts fighter, and he got exhausted to the point that he had to be hospitalized.

When he got out of the hospital, he put a quarter of a million dollars dollars into Bitcoin at a dollar of Bitcoin. Wow.
Yeah, that's back what it was. That's what it was back then.

And he still has it? Well, he's a multi-billionaire. He unfortunately has had some disputes with

the U.S. government over taxes.
You can Google it. And, you know, I think it's kind of crazy that they're not just simply saying, here's the amount, pay your penalty, et cetera.
But

he's right now in... in uh he's in sort of confinement not in prison but you know you can't leave spain i think i heard about this actually yeah yeah that's nuts.

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Yeah, I saw you say on another show: only 5% of the world population owns Bitcoin right now. That is something that is fundamental to why I believe we're going into a super cycle.

So there's three reasons that

I wrote the book and two sort of messages that should come out of it. I guess three if you include the first one.
First one is I was frustrated that traditional

business people, investors didn't get what I was saying, or they would run it past their stockbroker.

Well, if you run it past your stockbroker in 2013, he's going to say, this is like a road to like bankruptcy.

They'd be like, or I can't talk about it. I'm not allowed to talk about it.
Or, you know, this is a con game or whatever.

And if they, if they, their trusted advisor who's not allowed to sell something says that it's a con or it's a fraud or it's a Ponzi or whatever. And of course, they'd never read the white paper.

They'd never investigated. They just simply, that was what, you know, their boss's boss's boss said.
And of course, you know, going back to the earliest days, you know, places like J.P.

Morgan, you know, famously, you know, Jamie Dimon had said, I think in 2015, if anybody was stupid enough to buy Bitcoin, he would at J.P. Morgan, he would fire him on the spot.

And then there's reports of like other divisions of J.P. Morgan buying it up as soon as the price crashed.
You know, so it's like, watch how I'm running my book, not what I say. Right.

And this has been a secret of short sellers for, you know, generations. Yeah, they use the media to induce fear and then they buy at lows and then

put positive media behind it and repeat. And I think you can see now that all of a sudden the price is in 100,000 plus, all the institutions are just like, you know, jumping in.

And of course, they'll be the first ones to say it's going to go down when they want to buy more. But, you know, the biggest thing that happens, though.

So the first reason I wrote the book was to, it's not Bitcoin for dummies. It's Bitcoin for investors that haven't done enough research or the right research.
And so that's who it's for.

And that's sort of the message is that Bitcoin, it's not accidental that it's the best asset class of all time.

I mean, literally, there's no other asset class that went from a tenth of a penny in 2010 to over $100,000.

I mean, what is that, a 10,000 X? Way more.

It was a million X when it went to $1,000. So it's 100 million X.
Holy crap. 100 million X.

There was only one sale at the 10th of a penny. That was Marty Malki, who is Satoshi's intern.
I call him. Wow.
He was a college student in Finland, 19 years old, that read the white paper.

The white paper was, you know, there for anybody to see who like subscribed to these, you know, obscure cryptography groups.

And he, you know, Satoshi had his email on there, you know, satoshi at gmx.net or whatever. And he said, hey, I really like what you're saying.
And, you know, I, I know how to build websites.

Can I help you build a website? Because, you know, Satoshi went and, you know, took out,

you know, bitcoin.org. And he's like, yeah, I can use some help.
I'll pay you in Bitcoin.

But what I can really use help is I'd like somebody else to be mining all the time so that I know there's at at least two people mining all the time.

And, you know, Hal Finney

also,

you know, started mining a few days later. But if you look at the number of wallets, I mean, a year into Bitcoin, there was less than 100 people mining.
Wow, that's it.

That's it because it just was not very well publicized. You know, there wasn't any foundation.
There wasn't any PR firm.

You know, there was there was just Satoshi saying, you know, this is going to change the world. And, you know, if you believe it, I mean, he has a famous

saying where he was trying to explain. So he said, he said, if you don't believe it or don't get it, I'm sorry I don't have enough time to explain it to you.
Yeah. Right.

And it's just like, you know, Bitcoin, you know, there's another saying that was not by him, which is that people get Bitcoin at the price that they deserve.

And so the people who, you know, learned about it really early and got it and kept it, I mean, they're billionaires now. I mean, you know, you have 10,000 Bitcoin, do the math.
Crazy.

And when it gets a million dollars, you have a thousand Bitcoin, then you're a billionaire. And so the effect of all these extremely wealthy people who were like bartenders and,

you know, just, you know,

crypto anarchists or like, you know, libertarians who put, you know, $100 into Bitcoin when it was a nickel or put $1,000 at a dollar and had the fortitude to hold no matter what.

You know, these are the people who put. Trump into office, quite frankly.
Because if you look, I mean, you know, money talks and BS walks in politics, right? I mean,

the influence of money on politics is, you know, unmistakable.

It's too bad, but it is what it is. And if you look at historically the U.S.
presidential campaigns, the biggest dollar participants have been Big Pharma and the Big Banks.

And you can see how policy has gone, right? This last election cycle was the first time that those two were not the top categories.

Crypto was the biggest investor. 48%

of all

funding for the presidential election was from the crypto industry. Is that on the right or the left?

They contributed to both sides, but mainly they contributed to the Trump campaign because Trump said, I'm pro-Bitcoin. And Camela was like, well, you know, we're going to look at it.

And of course, they were the same party that just had a war on crypto with Gary Gensler and Elizabeth Warren. So even though they were saying, we'll look at it.

you know it was very i mean i think the most positive thing that camel ever said was she said well i understand that black men are making some money on crypto, so there must be something good here.

But it was, you know, the whole identity politics that kind of cost the election as well

for the woke. Yeah, there was a crypto ball in D.C., I remember.
You were crying. I was there.
I was there. Yeah, it was like, well, a quarter million to get into that or something crazy?

You know, I got in just because I contributed

to meet President Trump, get a grip and grin shot at

Bitcoin 2024.

so when he was a candidate he spoke in nashville and i was a speaker at that conference i you know david bailey who's a you know friend of mine since the early days uh you know brilliant entrepreneur and uh you know he bought bitcoin magazine you know which was originally owned by vitalik and a few other people and they were just kind of doing other things that wouldn't run anymore and he was running uh you know a print magazine called why bitcoin that was sort of like for newbies and his he comes from a family of publishers so he knows that industry nice and uh but he basically went and you know really when he bought it, I think he was trying to like make it into like the shiny, glossy Bitcoin magazine.

And then he realized, whoa, the website is really where it's at. And he's just done an amazing job of growing the conference.

And, you know, the Bitcoin conference now, you know, gets like 25,000, 30,000 people. And of course, last year, like all great conferences, they have to move to Vegas.
Yeah. Right.

When you get to the certain size, you can't go anywhere else. I was there.
It was a very impressive turnout. Yeah.
I think one of the Trumps spoke. I was really impressed.

They started a fund, I believe, Trump Jr. and Eric, right? Yes.
A Bitcoin fund. They've done a lot of things in the Bitcoin space.
They also

started

a Bitcoin mining company called American Bitcoin. They started a stablecoin.
I mean,

the family is all over the asset class. Wow.
They just started a mining company or they had one?

They did a very interesting deal.

They bought a company called Griffin Mining that I was actually an advisor and a shareholder in.

And they basically rolled it into what's going to become called, I think, the American Bitcoin Company. Interesting.

And, you know, and so that was, you know, it was kind of a reverse merger type thing, but stocks spiked, and I was happy with that. Wow.

And so, yeah, no, I mean, the Trump family has been in crypto for quite a while.

And, you know, and obviously the president, because of his family being in crypto for quite a while, I mean, it's nice to have somebody who's educated about the asset class and really sees the importance

in terms of freedom, in terms of America being a leader.

I mean, you know, he also, I mean, is brilliant appointing, you know, David Sachs as the crypto and AI czar because, you know, Europe is very, I wouldn't say anti-crypto, but they seem to be going down the path of the nanny state.

You know, their big concern about AI is safety. Ooh, what's going to happen if AI, you know, does this and that?

We better have a lot of regulation to be able to make sure that AI doesn't do anything bad.

Well, while you're, you know, hamstringing all these companies from innovating, you know, the rest of the world that's not under the same regulations is taking over the technology. And the U.S.

wanted to make sure that that's not China

because they don't have, you know, AI safety regulation. They let people innovate.
Right. Are you pretty optimistic? I'm sure you're investing in some AI companies right now.
Yes.

That's sort of my other kind of asset class in technology that I'm bullish on.

And I'm also very bullish in terms of the future of the two coming together, decentralized AI, because AI agents are sort of a big area in the future, not just LLMs.

And, you know, if you've got an agent going out and executing on your behalf, do you want it to be owned by Microsoft? Probably not. Right.
So, and I mean, OpenAI is 40% owned by Microsoft. You know,

you know, even the open source stuff that Llamas is developed by Meta.

I mean, you know, Google, obviously, they're, I mean, the big, the big LLMs are all either majority owned or at least significantly owned by, you know, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Meta, and,

Elon Musk.

And so

these are

very profitable, centralized organizations that have a history of

doing things for the shareholders and not necessarily for the users. And, you know, and if you're, you know, one answer is to like over-regulate stuff, another one is to decentralize it.

And obviously what Bitcoin did with decentralization, what the internet did with decentralization. I mean, the internet, you know, really was sort of the original kind of decentralized,

you know, organization. And, you know, in the early days,

you know, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, you know, I still have a t-shirt somewhere from the early days that said

the internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it.

And so the whole idea was that, you know, when the defense industry, I mean,

it was a DARPA project originally in the 60s.

so that during a nuclear war, if you had a thousand nodes that needed to somehow connect with each other for national security and 900 were damaged because of warfare, nuclear or otherwise, you could still, because there was no central hub that most client server architectures and mainframe architectures rely upon, as long as you had like three or four nodes anywhere in the country, they could find each other.

Wow. And so that was what the internet's strength was.
And when I first learned about that, I was all in on that. And I particularly got all in on that.

You know, when the web came out and I saw that with the graphic interface in the early 90s,

you know, that was developed as a college project at the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana, and Mark Andreessen was the student there, who was the lead student in charge of the project.

Larry Smarris is the person that got the government grants.

That was, you know, I have these, I like to say I have the blessing and curse of being a little early in projects.

They say you can tell the pioneers are the ones with the arrows in the back.

But it's a blessing and a curse. It's a blessing that you see where things are going.
You just don't have to run and invest before

sort of like shaking out the details. Bitcoin was the opposite.
You could have invested as early as you wanted, right? Because it wasn't like there was going to be a fight between

VHS and beta. I mean, I think it was clear that Bitcoin was going to be the winner from the beginning.
Even though Ethereum said there's going to be a flipping, but it never got close.

Doesn't look like it's close at all, right? Not close at all. It's like 60% of the asset class.
And I think the closest one is Ethereum, and that's maybe a little over 10%, I think. So, yeah no it's

it

during certain section sectors they run away with it

you know I think that for the foreseeable future there'll still be 50% or higher

you know during during certain you know we're going right now you know I mean so the other two things that I wrote about in the book was I wanted to explain the cycles because most traditional investors understand the cycles in their asset class.

If you're a real estate investor, you understand the cycles, right? You wouldn't have gone and FOMO'd and bought real estate in Las Vegas in 2007, right?

Because you could see that the bubble was about to pop. Whereas tons of people like went in and like, you know, mortgaged,

I mean, they just went, you know, it was easy money and people were making money and then they got wrecked, right?

Because they had these programs where you could go in and do, you know, I mean, Vegas in particular got really harmed by this.

You know, people with no income would do these no-dock loans and they would say, oh, yeah, I'm a cocktail waitress, but I'm going to buy a $5 million home because there's no money down.

And my realtor said, well, you know, when the bill comes due, it'll be worth double as much. And you just, you know, cash out or refinance it.

And of course, that ruined, you know, I mean, at one point, 70-something percent of all the home sales in Vegas were foreclosures. Holy crap.
Yeah, I was in Vegas for 10 years. That was in 08.

No, it was after that. It was when the wreckage happened.
It was like. 2011 and 2012.
Oh, my gosh. Yes.
It started.

I mean, it took a while for it to, and, you know, I was on the other side of that equation. I was buying those homes.
Yeah. You had liquid capital already.
Liquid capital, yeah.

And, yeah, and, and, but I, I mean, I think that morally, the government should have actually just helped the homeowners stay in their homes instead of, you know, just, you know, hey, here's your easy money.

Oops, you didn't do it. Okay, we're going to just like mass foreclose and give to the investor class.
Yeah, it's crazy. That was only 12 years ago.
That's not too long. I know.
No, and again,

buy at the bottom, sell at the top. And people forget forget that.

So,

you know,

Lord Rothschild, you know, the Rothschild banking family is the one who said a couple of hundred years ago,

you must buy when there's blood in the streets.

And the full quote was, even if it's your own blood. Wow.
That's it. And that appeal, that has to, I mean, for example, the one metro market that actually got hurt worse than Vegas was Miami.

Miami at the bottom had, I think,

five years of inventory unsold. Holy crap.
And, you know, in a healthy market, you're a matter of months, right? I think Vegas was about three years at that point, but it was five years.

And I remember,

you know, looking at buying some stuff. I was like begging my ex, like, you know, please, let's buy a couple places in Miami.
She's like, no, I don't want to concentrate in Vegas.

But, I mean, you could have bought. a three-bedroom home in South Beach, a little, you know, older home, but for about $60,000.
What? And those are worth like a million now.

Yeah, Miami's booming, right? Miami's booming. And so, again, you just have to look.
And so the same thing with Bitcoin. The best times to buy Bitcoin is when it crashes.
I mean,

there's a

New Yorker-style cartoon out there that basically has a line that says Bitcoin for sale, $60,000, people around the block. Bitcoin for sale a year later, $15,000 crickets.

I've seen that one, yeah. Right.
And so

that's really

the third lesson. I mean, sort of part of the lesson of the book on the cycles is, again, you want to go and retail has a tendency to FOMO in at the top and then say, oh my God, I was so stupid.

And then they sell at a loss. That then opens up the door for, you know, the sophisticated investors to go and, you know, buy when retail is selling and then sell when retail is buying.

And the cycles in the stock market, if you're a stock market investor and you've been around for a while, I certainly did this. You know, things like sell in May and go away.

That's something that I actually did for years.

Over a 75-year period, if you you sold your portfolio every May, stayed out of the market in the summer and the early fall when a lot of the crashes happened, then bought back either the same stocks or rebalanced your portfolio in November going into the Santa Claus rally and the January rally, you would have significantly outperformed.

I think it was some crazy number, like two and a half X over a 75-year period. Wow.

On the other hand, if you did the opposite, and you basically sold in November and bought back in May, over 75 years, you would have barely made money. You would have missed most of the gains.

Because if you look, the big crashes were like the 29 crash in October.

The 89 crash was, I think, in late September. I mean, September and October have been horrible months for the 09 crash, right? The 08, 09 crash.
That was in September, October. Interesting.

So, you know, history has a tendency to repeat, or as Mark Twain allegedly said.

I mean, there's doubts whether he actually said it, but he's referred to as saying it, which is, you know, history may not repeat, but it tends to rhyme. Right.
And it's been true in the stock market.

It's been true in other asset classes. That's certainly true, even more so in Bitcoin.
And so I noticed this early on. And around 2015, I developed this

concept called the four seasons of Bitcoin.

Satoshi in the white paper says that as long as every four-year cycle, so there's 33 cycles that are four years where the amount of new Bitcoin gets cut in half.

So the first cycle was around 10 million Bitcoin, and that was 7,200 per day. And then after 210,000 blocks, it got cut in half.
So all of a sudden now there's only 3,600 a day.

So about 5 million over that four-year cycle. And then

one day it gets cut in half again. So now it's only 1,800 a day, about 2.5 million over the four years.
And then four years later, it gets cut in half again.

Now it's 900 a day, about 1.1 something over a four-year cycle. We're now in the fifth cycle.
So we are now at only 450 Bitcoin a day.

The first four years was 7,200 Bitcoin a day and not many people mining. If you were a miner back then, you could just turn on a laptop and you were going to get maybe 100 Bitcoin a day.
Holy crap.

With

difficulty of

one. The level was one.
You could just have a laptop, sit there, and get 100, 150 Bitcoin a day. Mark Carpellis, who I got to interview last year at the Korea blockchain, he started Montgox.

And he's known for building that up and exploding it, et cetera, et cetera, being sued and all sorts of things happen there. He actually started out

in

payments. He actually

ran a payments company and he also had a web hosting company. He's a young man in his 20s, Frenchman living in Tokyo.

And he got a call one day from someone who was a Frenchman living in South America, Peru, I think it was. And he said, hey, can you exchange Bitcoin for Euros? And he's like, what's a Bitcoin?

And he researched it, found out, and found somebody who was willing to go and pay, you know, Euros for Bitcoin. This is around 2010, so it was probably one of the first sales of Bitcoin.

And then he, after he did that, he said, hmm, I'm a techie. Why don't I know about this Bitcoin? So he went, read the white paper, downloaded the software.

Back in those days, the software actually had mining built in. You would just turn on your computer, boot up the software, and it would start mining for you.
Within an hour, he had 50 Bitcoin. Holy.

And he's like, well, I guess it must not be very valuable if it's this easy to get Bitcoin. He's like, but you know what? Somebody was willing to pay for it.

So I guess I should probably put it on a few more computers. And because he also had a hosting company, he was a partner in a payments company, but he owned a hosting company.

He probably had 30, 40 computers. He loaded the Bitcoin software on every one of them.
Oh, my gosh.

Within about four months, while the Bitcoin difficulty was still level one, he mined 200,000 Bitcoin. Holy crap.
And he has none of them now, he claims. He says he put them in Mt.

Gox because he thought it was safer there. Wow.
If he just kept them in his wallet, kept the private keys, he'd be one of the richest people on the planet right now. That's nuts.
Yeah.

There's a lot of stories like that about the early days of Bitcoin. That's nuts.
Yeah. A lot of people, like, I feel like had it early on, but never held this long.
This is true.

The people who, you know, and again, when you get an investment, let's say it's a stock or something, and you go 10x, you know, you're told you should take some stuff off the top or don't get greedy or whatever.

And especially if it then crashes. But

I'm now not a proponent of hodling, and I'm not a proponent of like just selling when it doubles or whatever. I think you need to look at the cycles.

And the most successful strategy, even though hodling did really well, hodling is a, I explained in the book, is sort of based on a meme from a number of years ago where somebody misspelled the word hold when he was drunk on a

famous post on Bitcoin Talk, which was Satoshi's little chatbard.

But If you were to buy, let's say you weren't super early, you didn't know about it in 2010, 2011, but you learned about it at the end of 2012.

That was actually almost a year after I'd first heard about it. So November 2012 was the first halving.
It was at $12.

So if you bought it at $12 or in early 2013, it was $11. But let's say you bought it at the first halving, end of 2012, and you put $12,000 in.
That would have gotten you 1,000 Bitcoin.

So that 1,000 Bitcoin for a $12,000 investment, if you did nothing but hold it between then and now, is now worth $115 million today.

Can't think of any other investment that would do that well over a 12-year period,

a 12 and a half year period or so.

And on the other hand, if you did what I propose in my book, which is hold Bitcoin for three years and hold fiat for one year, that way you're able to sell at the top of the cycle and then buy back at the bottom.

Now, 2012 was near the end of the cycle, so you would have only had to hold another year. It went up 100x.
It went from 12 to 1200.

Now, you probably weren't going to go and guess the exact high, but and that first cycle was probably the hardest one to guess because there was limited information. It was the first halving.

But if you were able to get out at around a thousand bucks, you would have turned your

$12,000 investment into a million dollars. You hold on to that for a year, crash, crash, crash, crash, crash.
I kind of knew that the bottom was in at about 171 because it was just.

Even the short sellers are like saying, I don't know if I can, there wasn't really much short selling going on then other than some foreign exchanges.

But even the ones that were like, you know, sort of like,

you know, bears were like saying, you know, I think this is probably as low as it's going to go. And it stayed, it takes forever to crawl back from that.
That's what I call Bitcoin winter.

And so you had several months you could have gotten back in around 250 bucks. So if you'd sold at 1,000 and bought back at 250, now you have 4,000 Bitcoin.
You hold that for three years.

It went up to almost $20,000.

Let's say you cost averaged out over the last, you know, couple of months of the bull market and you got out at $16,000. You then held on to that cash for a year.

It was literally a year minus three days later that went down to 3,200. Let's say you missed that 3,200, but

you got back in at 4,000. Now you have 16,000 Bitcoin.

And you repeat that one more cycle. You could have actually done another 4X, but I was saying that the cost average probably would have done a little bit less than that, and you'd have 60,000 Bitcoin.

So by doing that strategy today, when Bitcoin is $115,000, your $12,000 investment isn't worth $115

million. It's worth a little over $5 billion.
Holy crap. Yes.
And by the end of the cycle, if it gets to where I think it's going to go, it could be $12 billion. Yeah.
$12,000 to $12 billion.

I don't know anything that's ever done that. That's nuts.
That's really good advice for people. So just keep an eye on Bitcoin.
And what do you consider a crash, like a 30% dip? No.

So it's, it's, it, you know, my, my subhead of the book is, you know, how the crypto calendar can make you rich. And it is based on the calendar so far.
It is a four-year cycle.

It's actually 210,000 blocks. So it hasn't been exactly four years.
The first one was 47 months.

The second one was the shortest one because there was disruption in mining because China really cracked down on miners.

And so you ended up going, instead of having it be in November, which would be an exact four-year cycle, it was in July.

And so, because the difficulty, and I have a whole chapter on mining that explains all this, it adjusts to make it about a 10-minute block.

And so it'll make it longer or shorter based on, you know, sort of the number of people mining and and the,

and it wants to go and have it so that if there's a lot of people transacting and a lot of people mining, that there's not a powerful computer that can take over the network. Got it.

And so it has to be more and more difficult. And the difficulty is

the easiest way to explain it's called a non-cent number used only once, but it's effectively when it was difficulty one, it asked the question of the math processor along the lines of, what's the square root of nine?

Anybody can answer that, right? So it's three. Now it's something along the lines of what's the square root of 7,427,000, right? So

it takes

legions of

dedicated math processors all strung together. And so the difficulty level in Bitcoin, which is how hard it was to go and get a new Bitcoin for the first year and a half, was one.

So again, you were getting it at the Mark Carpalis, just turn on a laptop and get 200,000 Bitcoin if you had 30 computers running.

And so there were other people who had multiple computers running. And a lot of those people are, you know, we think Bitcoin that never moved.
So these are multi-billionaires.

I mean, obviously the person who just sold 80,000 Bitcoin a couple of weeks ago, $9 billion,

had never moved it since he mined it in 2010. And it was 10,000 here, 10,000 here, 10,000 here, 10,000 here.
How many other 10,000 Bitcoin wallets does he have? That's nuts. No one knows who that is.

Nobody knows who it is. That's crazy.
Including the tax authorities.

That's so cool.

I'm sure they're going to probably look for it now.

So now to mine, you can't just do it off a laptop. No.

So

again,

it was for about a year and a half, it was difficulty level one, which you could do on a laptop. And then

what made the

difficulty increase was the same guy who basically was responsible for the Bitcoin pizza, Laszlo Heinich, who was a gamer, a 19-year-old gamer in Jacksonville, Florida.

He figured out how to take one of his gaming cards and mine Bitcoin with it. And he got much better

throughput, right?

A GPU is more powerful than the CPU. And so all of a sudden, he was getting tons of Bitcoin.
He was like solving the,

he was solving the math problem quickest because he had a stronger processor. So if all of a sudden the math problem is really easy and boom, he gets it first, right?

And so that ended up triggering the algorithm to go, oh, we need to double the difficulty to level two. A month later, it went to level three, triple the difficulty.

A month after that, it it was five. Wow.
5x the difficulty. A month after that, it was eight.

During this rapid run-up, Satoshi emailed him and said, I know I can't stop you, but we're not supposed to increase the difficulty this early before people know about Bitcoin.

And, of course, Laszlo didn't stop. He ended up mining over 100,000 Bitcoin.
That was the guy that bought pizza? That was the guy that bought 10,000 pizza for me, sorry, two pizzas for 10,000 Bitcoin.

Oh, so he's doing fine then because people are internet. He's not doing fine.

He sold all of his Bitcoin. He bought pizza a few more times.
And then when it got to about a dollar, he ended up buying a computer. No way.
There's no Bitcoin left. That's crazy.
Yeah.

When was the last time someone heard from Satoshi, like he emailed someone like that?

So it depends what you believe. Satoshi sort of disappeared from public view around the time that

one of his core devs, Gavin Anderson, went and did a presentation to the CIA because they asked. Oh.
And all of a sudden, he just like, you know, posted and said, I'm busy working on other projects.

You won't be hearing me for a while. And that's the last.
Now, when was that? That was around 20,

I think it was late 2010,

late 2010, early 2011, around there.

I mentioned the date in the book. And,

you know, there was the only other time that a wallet that was linked to him posted was when

there was a news reporter who said they found Satoshi, and it was a guy called Dorian Nakamoto. Oh, wow.

Who basically

lived in California, didn't speak great English, and she had grilled him. And he basically said, didn't understand the question, said, oh, yes,

I involved in that project. And he didn't understand the question.
He was not Satoshi. And so a wallet associated after this, like, I mean, literally reporters chased this guy around the block.

It was big news.

Satoshi's wallet, I mean, rather, an email address associated with him said, I am not Dorian Nakamoto.

And that's the last time that anybody's heard from him, assuming that that was him who posted that. Interesting.
If he did, that means Satoshi is still alive and well.

We have no idea whether he still has the Bitcoin. There's a lot of different theories on that.
We don't know if he has the private key still. Yeah, I saw something.

It's like if Bitcoin hits a million, he's the first trillionaire in the world or something. Something like that.
That would do it, yes. Crazy.
Wow. A million times.

He's got access to about 1.1 million Bitcoin. No, it's a CIA meeting.
Now I see where that conspiracy theory comes into play. How the CIA started Bitcoin.
Yeah, I think that's

unlikely.

I just just all the artifacts, all the things, it just is unlikely that that's true.

You know, I think the CIA studied it. I think they know a lot about it, et cetera.

But I don't think that it was the CIA that started this just to, I don't know, to do what, to go and get people to get rich and then like say, aha, we're going to bug on you.

I mean, I don't think that's likely. Yeah, it's changed a lot of people's lives for sure.
Yes. Michael, this is fun, man.
I can't wait to get to know you and come to your events.

Anything else you want to close off with here? Yeah, we got about five more minutes.

So the super cycle, didn't really talk about that. So the four seasons of Bitcoin is what, so Satoshi said in the white paper that

as long as the amount of new Bitcoin every cycle

is exceed, sorry, the amount of new Bitcoin, the amount of new users buying Bitcoin exceeds the amount of new Bitcoin put into the system, which gets cut in half every time, the price has to go up.

And so sure enough, first halving, it was $12. Second halving was $670.
Third halving was $8,700. Fourth halving was $64,000.
Every single time it went up, there's 33 halvings overall.

We're in number five. Or sorry, yeah, we're in cycle number five, fourth halving.
And

so my addition to that is, yes, it goes up, but not in a straight line. With between the halvings, which so far has been basically the perfect price of Bitcoin, it's not too high, not too low.

You have four quadrants that are associated with human fear and greed. Right.

And so I call them the four seasons of Bitcoin, which is what I originally wanted to call the book, my publisher liked Bitcoin Supercycle, which is another part of the narrative. So

Bitcoin spring is the day of the having. You can see it coming a mile away.
That's when the seed of the new cycle narrative is planted.

And that's that in one day, Bitcoin miners go from being profitable to unprofitable, about 20% profitable on average to 30% unprofitable. And yet the price doesn't drop.
It stays flat.

Because if any miners are selling, usually they have financing at this point.

you know, there's somebody else saying, I see the price is going to go up, I'll buy it up. But they wait until there is movement to prove you're in a bull market before they really FOMO in.

And that is the first day of Bitcoin summer. Bitcoin summer is what I've named the day that the all-time high is reached.
So it passes the high of the last cycle.

Every single time that's happened, when it passed $30 in 2013, which is the high of the first cycle, when it passed $1,200 in 2017, which was the high of the prior cycle, when it passed $20,000 in the end of 2020 and when it passed 73,850 last year.

Every time that's happened, it takes off like a rocket ship. This time it went from 73,000 after being flat for six months.
It went up to 100,000 within three weeks.

And so that is what I call Bitcoin summer. And that's usually lasted between nine and 11 months.
It gets a little bit longer.

Bitcoin Spring is only four to seven months, been getting a little bit longer.

So we could be as long as 12 months this time. So November 5th is when we hit the all-time high of last year.

I don't think we're going to hit it this month because, you know, nine months from November would have been August. I think we're still kind of in this,

you know, sort of,

this year looks a lot like 2017, which is the one year you didn't have a double bubble.

2013, it went from $12 to like $250,000, crashed back down at $50,000, stayed flat in the summer, ended up at $1,200. This last time, it went from like, you know, in 2020, 21, it went from like 8,700.

We had COVID around.

It still ended up going to 64,000. Then it crashed during the summer down into the 30s, and then it went up back to 67,000.
In 2017,

it started around

670, took a while to get up to the all-time high of the prior cycle, which hadn't been over 1,000 in three years. And when it hit 1,200,

it still took until, that was in February, I think, end of February, early March. By the end of July, it was still only 1,900.
But yet by the end of December, it was 19,000.

And so I think this year is going to look like that. So we started the year, you know, around 100,000.
We're still, I mean, on January 19th, it was 119,000. Today it's 115,000.

So it's been pretty flat for the last, you know, eight months, but I believe that we're going to be around 200,000 by the end of the year, which would be about three times the halving price because the first time was 10x and then an 85% drop.

Sorry, 100x the halving price, then an 85% drop. The second halving was

30x and then an 83% drop. Should have been 10x, I thought, because it was sort of a logarithmic drop in

diminishing returns and then an arithmetic drop in diminishing losses. But we had bad macro.
We had Biden's war on crypto, Elizabeth Warren, Gary Gensler.

And we also had a rapid rise in interest rates. And so that tamped it down to only be 8x.
And then you had a little blip at the end when they approved the ETS to 9X.

And then you had a 75% drop from the 2021 high to FTX.

And to me, it's not a coincidence that all the bankruptcies and all the drama, et cetera, happened the third year of the cycle because you have the having the first year, you have the parabolic run-up when people get greedy, people over-leverage.

And then when the bubble pops, as Warren Buffett once said, you can only tell when the water's gone out who's been swimming naked.

And that happened in the only three years in the 16 years of Bitcoin that you could have lost money between January and December were 2014, 2018, 2022.

And you're probably going to lose money in 26, but not after you have a nice run-up the rest of this year. And so that's what I call the four seasons of Bitcoin.

Oh, so Bitcoin fall is probably the most important season, and it's the hardest to judge because you can tell Bitcoin spring, it's on the calendar. It's when the halving happens.
You can tell Bitcoin

summer's first day about calculator. Are you above the last season's high? You have to tell the new high and whether it's going to go higher or not.

If you can judge that, that's the end of Bitcoin summer and the start of Bitcoin fall.

And then it takes about one year to just drop like crazy this last time it was one year to the day the november 10th of 2021 was the all-time high november 10th of 2022 was ftx wow and was the low for that cycle and uh you know and so i i just put all this together in charts and graphs in the book and so that's where i get that i think we're going to be at about 3x plus or minus macro if the tariffs keep on causing havoc maybe we only get to 150k before the bubble pops um if the good regulation the amount of money being put in Bitcoin treasury companies, Michael Saylor just bought, you know, $2.1 billion.

I mean, he bought

more Bitcoin than the miners did, sold in months in one day, right? And so

we are buying way more right now than the amount of supply. And so at some point, you have a supply shock.
And so where the super cycle comes in, so the final season, so it lasts about a year.

So you got about six months of Bitcoin spring, you got about a year of Bitcoin summer, you got about a year of Bitcoin fall. That leaves about 18 months for Bitcoin winter.

Bitcoin winter is not when things are dropping, it's when they've already capitulated.

So that's the best time to buy. And when things have dropped, there's blood in the streets, and it takes about 18 months to then go back to the halving.
Got it.

So you have to be patient, but that's been the most profitable time to buy. And so that's the big lesson in the book.

Bitcoin super cycle is very simply that 5% and 95%.

When you

realize that 95% of all the Bitcoin is mined and only 5% of the world has any,

what happens when we have 15% of the population? Where's the Bitcoin coming from? In other

run-ups, and the S-curve of adoption happens in almost every disruptive technology. There's a great photo of Times Square, I believe it was 1903, that showed all horses in one car.

1913, it was all cars.

And maybe it's not going to happen that quick in Bitcoin.

But right now, we're kind of at that tipping point that you had in the internet, you had mobile phones, where all of a sudden it's not the early crazy guys that is doing it.

It's like, you know, your mom and dad put it in their IRA, you know, or they, the ETFs is helping make this easy. The GUI gets a lot easier.
You can go now and buy Bitcoin in your Charles Schwab.

You didn't used to be able to do that before. Now your broker is saying it's safe because he's selling the product, right? And so

the S curve of adoption usually is once you get about 5%, 5% to 8% of any new technology, it may take you 15 years to get there. Usually within about a decade, you get over 50%.

and maybe another decade, you get to 80 or 90%.

So 95% of all the Bitcoin has been sold. And it's going to take 115 years to solve the last 5%.

Where's that new Bitcoin going to come from? When the internet went through that, made companies like Cisco and Microsoft rich, they just made more software, made more hardware.

Miners can't make more Bitcoin. They only have 450 a day.
And after 2028, they're going to only have 225 a day. And after 2032, they're only going to have 112 a day.

And yet demand is going to be going up. Let's say you have 5% of the world, you know, 400 million today is sort of an estimate.
Let's say in four years, you have a billion.

That's two and a half times as much. Where's that Bitcoin coming from? It has to come from the sale from existing holders.
And they all have their number. Some are going to say never.

I'm going to give it to my grandkids. If it goes to a million, goes to 10 million, great.
Others are like, yeah, I'll sell some at 200,000. I'll sell some at 500,000.
And so that tends to be that the

pops when everybody's FOMOing are at the end of Bitcoin summer, which would be this year. And if it doesn't hit a million this year, which I don't think it will,

if we hit, if we go into Bitcoin, the Bitcoin super cycle, that would mean that like Coinbase runs out of coins for a day. They can't find any, right?

Everybody's scrambling to find coins and the price just keeps going up. And there's a short squeeze.
And

you could see 300,000, 400,000 this cycle. And then people are going to FOMO in and say, oh, it's going to go to a million by the end of the year.
And that's when they get wrecked.

So you need to look on chain. I talk a lot in the book about how to identify these things.
I also have a fund that's coming out where we do it using algorithmic technology and my strategy. And

the super cycle, I think, is going to be about three cycles where you reverse the diminishing returns. It's happened in gold and silver.

It happened in gold in the 70s when the price of gold because of a fundamental change quadrupled in a decade. And that's because the U.S.

got off the gold standard and simultaneously they let Americans start owning gold again. And in the 90s, it happened across commodities when China started buying everything.

And so I think that's happening in Bitcoin now because people, just like buying gold,

you know, they're afraid of all the debt and they're diversifying. And so it's only a matter of time that we end up having this supply shock.
Yeah.

And if it doesn't happen this year, it's going to happen four years from now. Michael, thanks for your time.
I learned a ton. Guys, check out this book.

It sounds like it could be life-changing for a lot of people. And check out Michael's event at the Tiger Mansion.
We'll link it below. Thanks for coming on again, man.
Thank you so much. Yo.

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