Goalkeepers' headers & elasticos on the deck of the Titanic: The listeners' loves & hates*

This is an ad for BetterHelp.

We turn to some funny places for support, but perhaps my PT isn't the ideal person to be discussing my work-life balance with.

As fun as they are to talk with about everyday topics, when you're looking for help about relationships, anxiety, depression, or other clinical issues, they may not have all the right answers.

Instead, get guidance from a credentialed therapist online with BetterHelp.

I uh do have a barber, thankfully, but um we just talk about spurs, to be honest with you.

Um so you probably are better off speaking to somebody from BetterHelp because they have clinically trained and credentialed therapists and have been helping people find their match for over a decade.

After a short questionnaire to figure out your needs and preferences, BetterHelp used their 10 plus years of experience to match you with the right therapist.

And if you aren't happy, you can switch to a different counsellor at any time.

With over 5,000 therapists in the UK, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally.

And our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com slash FC.

That's better H E L P dot com slash F C chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month each lasting four hours or more.

Botox onobotulinum toxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start.

It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month.

It prevents on average eight to nine headache days a month versus six to seven for placebo.

Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor.

Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms.

Alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition.

Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk.

Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck, and injection side pain, fatigue, and headache.

Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness.

Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection.

Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis, or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of of serious side effects.

Why wait?

Ask your doctor, visit BotoxchronicMigraine.com or call 1-800-44 Botox to learn more.

This podcast is supported by Progressive, a leader in RV insurance.

RVs are for sharing adventures with family, friends, and even your pets.

So if you bring your cats and dogs along for the ride, you'll want Progressive RV Insurance.

They protect your cats and dogs like family by offering up to $1,000 in optional coverage for vet bills in case of an RV accident, making it a great companion for the responsible pet owner who loves to travel.

See Progressive's other benefits and more when you you quote RV Insurance at progressive.com today.

Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates, pet injuries, and additional coverage and subject to policy terms.

and Kung Fu kicked a supportler who was I wip without a shadow of a doubt getting him lip.

Oh, I say!

It's amazing!

He does it tame and tame and tame again.

Break up the music!

Charge a glass!

This nation is going to dance all night!

The body language of players who should have had the ball squared to them, but their team scored anyway.

The economical language of group stage permutations, high-risk extracurricular goalkeeping activity, kids doing flip-flops on the deck of the Titanic, the absolute scourge of logoless retro shirts, and time for the footballing authorities to open the floodgates for portions of chips at top-flight football matches.

Brought to your ears by Goal Hanger Podcasts.

This is Football Clichés and your Mesa Harland Dicks.

Hello everyone and welcome to Football Cliches.

This is the listener's Mezza Harlan Harlan Dicks for July, your niche footballing fascinations and irritations.

We pick the best six from your nominations.

Alongside me for this one is Charlie Eccleshire.

How you doing?

Very well, thank you.

And David Walker, how are things?

Things are good.

Excellent.

Right, so let's get stuck straight in to this main event.

Let's kick things off with your fascinations.

The first one comes from Ben Carlin.

It's when a player is attacking a goal that has a teammate in a much better position in the middle who they should square it to.

They choose not to, they shoot, but they score.

And and then watching the reaction of the player who should have been squared to.

I love the whole psychodrama of it, the way the clear frustration they're feeling has to be buried and the sometimes quite forced joy and celebrations that they have to perform in order not to be seen as selfish and not a team player.

I find myself making sweeping moral judgments about players' characters based on how unreservedly they celebrate when they're in this situation.

I will rewind celebrations if the service I'm watching on allows for it, to check if a player joined in the celebrations by the corner flag or whether they sculpt off back to the centre circle on their own.

I'll watch for tiny details like the arms thrown up in frustration that have to be hurriedly converted into arms up in celebration.

And finally, I love that it's never ever picked up on by commentators.

There's a weird code of silence around it, which I find almost as fascinating as the phenomenon itself.

Lovely touch from Ben to take a moment to recognize the mixed offerings when it comes to the rewind facilities on online streaming platforms.

Really useful.

But Dave, his final point there was quite telling.

It never really dawned on me that commentators never ever talk about the reactions for a player who should have been squared the ball and how he has to sort of play with his emotions when the goal needs to be celebrated.

It's definitely a thing, this, isn't it?

I mean, I guess it's obviously, when would it ever be the main talking point after a goal?

Perhaps not.

Yeah, but I mean, it could be commented commented upon on the sort of third or fourth replay or something after the celebrations has taken place.

Yeah, I think it is a thing.

I mean, the obvious one, the obvious sort of scenario that comes to mind is somebody like Christiar Ronaldo getting pissed off.

Yeah.

But that is almost it's, you know, that's that's kind of more to do with his personality.

It's the subtle ones that probably happens quite a lot time and goes unnoticed when it's just the focus is on the celebration.

There's someone who's not necessarily flapping their arms about and making a big song and dance of it, but probably just sort of doesn't really run over and get involved and just kind of trots back.

And I would say, you're right, Dave, it's not normally the main talking point, but I have a very, very vivid memory of this is almost 20 years ago, exactly, November 2005, a game that most will remember for the Henri free kick, Wigan 2 Arsenal 3.

Remember the Henri scores the free kick and says, is that enough to the ref who didn't let him take a quick one?

Yeah.

The first goal in that game, Robin Van Percy scores.

He's got Freddie Jumberg outside of him who he could slip in.

And I remember vividly, and this says a lot about my teenage self, being at a party that night and having quite a long discussion with a friend of mine

about whether he should have passed.

My friend was saying, ultimately, he's still got a pass there.

And my argument was, well, he scored.

And Arsenal were often accused of they're trying to walk it in.

He hasn't.

And that's kind of why you shoot.

And the argument was, yeah, but you can't, and this was actually ahead of its time as a sort of process versus outcome debate of like, well, yeah, he may have scored, but he still should have passed.

And so, you know, I think there is a kind of, does the end always justify the means there?

So you were having a sort of XG adjacent discussion 20 years ago.

Great discussion.

I guess so.

Yeah.

More like XA, isn't it?

X Assist.

What the XA was, if you had siptim in there, yeah.

Yeah, I sort of sympathise with the sort of, yeah, bigger picture aspect.

If you do this a thousand times, it's better to pass it.

All the other lads are chasing girls,

getting off with people.

Charlie's over there talking about whether Van Persi should have squared it to Jumba.

And I start mine.

At least he didn't get a guitar out.

That's the best thing.

Who's had the last laugh?

Yeah.

Exactly.

And here I...

would have thought 20 years later.

Dave, if we take the goal out of the equation here, I think this is one of the kind of most sort of perennially consistent pieces of mini pantomime in football.

When you see a situation where a cutback is on or several players are the option for a player up wide and they go for it for a shot instead, I am, like Ben, my attention is instantly drawn to the players in the middle about how they're going to react.

And then secondarily, once they have reacted by throwing their arms out or sort of pleading, sort of cheery on restart by pointing at the floor with both hands or something, my attention is then drawn to the player who ignored them, who then continues to ignore them for as long as he possibly can.

And then finally, the camera will linger on them.

And then finally, he will look over sheepishly and go with one hand and go...

with that sort of puffed grimace is the only way to describe it.

The puffed grimace of, yes, I know I should have shot next time didn't see it.

Yeah, with an open palm.

Yeah.

In apology.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you do see it.

You do see it.

It's one of those things that you don't think about until it gets pointed out, which is is very much the beauty of this format.

But

I suppose you more often see it when the player has had a shot and misses, and there's a player in a better position who's pointing at the floor, going, Oh, come on, come on, I was there.

Yeah, I guess that's what's good about this because you do, because obviously then it does become a talking point.

It is picked up on, you know, because then there's like a, well, then there's clearly a better outcome.

But this sort of thing does, like, among fan bases, you will get this, that even if a goal goes in in the age of social media, now you know, people can have these conversations online rather than in real life at parties, you know, as to whether, well, even though that has gone in, like, got a part, you've just got to pass there.

And there'll be a sort of still of what it looks like in the moment where the other player is clearly in a way better position.

Yeah, yeah.

There's an FPL element to this as well.

I think people

will be more conscious of this nowadays.

Yeah, could have squared it to X player that would have got me points or whatever.

People watching reacting in the same way would be fantastic.

There is a subtler relation to this, Dave.

It's the kind of strike partner who's out of favor or kind of want away and they're not really invested in the team.

So it's not that they should have been passed to, but you see them in shots, not really wheeling away in celebration with everybody else.

And you think, oh, are they fussed?

Are they bothered?

Especially in preseason, players who are clearly linked with a move away and they're just waiting.

And they've been drafted into the lineup because there's a bit of rotation going on.

And they're out of a corner of the shot.

And you just think, they're not fussed.

They're not even joining in.

They're just sort of going, they're just trotting over you think disappointed disappointed that everyone doesn't join in the celebration yeah i think it's it's it is the sort of thing that fans will look at in that way in with the crazy sort of hyper granularity of transfer speculation these days you will have people analyzing celebrations for oh i i i think he does one out he didn't say he didn't he wasn't quick to celebrate with his teammates something how quick they are to celebrate with him there are sometimes a player will score.

Alexei Sanchez, just before he left Arsenal, scored, and it was like a no-one ran to him because they like, you know, it wasn't just that he wanted that, it was that no one liked him.

Yeah, but it can often be, I mean, I think ego is definitely at the core of this, Charlie, because you'll see a strike partner who may well be sort of part of the picture of the club and not wanting away.

But because they haven't scored, you think, are they jealous?

Are they jealous of the other guy scoring?

Like, yeah, I don't know.

Just for like

their reason for existing.

Scoring.

Ruban Isteroy was famously,

you know, would be like, so the story goes, he'd be, you know, United could have won 4-0 and he'd be miserable on the way home if he hadn't scored.

Right.

So I imagine he would be pretty annoyed.

I don't think there's like a, oh, deep down I'm happy for them.

I suppose also it's, you can't ignore the monetary element to it.

It's like, well, they, some of these players are probably getting like several thousand,

twenty grand?

Several thousand pounds per goal, right?

I'm fascinated by goal bonuses.

I just think they should be a really massive part of football.

I think incentivized contracts as they are these days.

What if you were just paid a pittance but paid shitloads for scoring goals?

I think that if you tip that balance way too far, the players' behaviour would just change dramatically.

So maybe that's why they don't do it.

Yeah, you get a lot more of this sort of thing, not passing when you should.

Right, the next fascination from our listeners this month comes from Andrew Penman.

Whether it's the end of the season or the conclusion of a group stage of a tournament, I love the permutations for final places.

And when discussing the permutations of a group or league position, I particularly enjoy the economy of one specific phrase that gets used, which is Team X needs needs to better team Y's result in order to qualify.

Because I bet they're just trying to find the right way to sum up, well, if Team Y wins and they're through no matter what, but if Team Y only draws, then team X can go through with a win, but if Team X draw, then they can only go through if Team Y lose.

No, nice and simple.

Team X need to better team Y's result.

A lovely little phrase.

It's spot on, Charlie.

It's a very efficient use of language.

And also, it's the only option in this situation.

Now, it's become the standout option, which, and it is a slightly odd phrase.

But it does, even as efficient as it is, it still makes you kind of stop and have to figure it out which which means it isn't quite doing its job no i do like that i think it there is an economy to it and sometimes there are times where you do just really what you you're kind of like i do just sort of want in a really simple way to understand all this and i i that does that does serve a useful purpose dave does your brain do what my brain does when faced with this phrase which is literally run through every possible scenario of results just to check that that would indeed be the situation so yeah okay so if team x drew that means team y that that means they need to win right because you can't do a better draw so it had to be a win and if they lose that means they could afford to draw it's um it's amazing what your brain just has to check really yeah well because you're never quite sure whether it's an all-but situation too where technically team y could have some sort of theoretically almost impossible outcome would still get them through like they could win 14 nil or something or you know you you kind of want to cover off that possibility as well don't you this is an interesting one if i said to you charlie that team x need to better team Y's result to qualify,

would that include goals, goal difference?

Or does it mean that the result itself needs to be better?

And maybe this isn't as efficient as we thought.

No, I think just

the outcome.

Right.

Like, I don't, you know, 7-0 isn't a better result

than 1-0.

You know, they're both a wins.

So...

So Team X needing to better Team Y's result would not be the appropriate phrase to use if goal difference came into the equation.

Correct.

Fair play.

Yeah, that would need to be an addendum to the situation.

Because then you get the nice, nice, like, but yeah, because look, if they win, then there's nothing that Tim Y can do.

That, you know, that just ends the debate.

It's great philosophy for my life, I think.

I don't really want to win.

I just want to better other people's existence.

That would do for me.

That'll do.

Thanks, Andrew Penman.

The final fascination from my listeners this month comes from Tim Kelly.

Hi, this is Tim, Hull City fan for my sins.

One of my fascinations is when a goalkeeper charges out the box to head away a hurt pull through ball, ticks a couple of boxes.

Firstly, the player in a position you don't expect them to be in.

And also when the commentators say the goalkeeper, they're using their heads.

I just love the double meaning of that.

Cheers.

Charlie, he's absolutely spot on that the double meaning gets rolled out far too much.

And that's never gone out of fashion, has it?

No, and we recorded Dreamland recently on football commentary in computer games, and that's exactly the sort of little flourish which would go in because it's kind of always true and doesn't change.

So the little users had it in more way than one.

Kind of like that balmy and balmy night.

It's very video game indeed.

This is a very pure fascination from Tim Kelly, isn't it, Dave?

This is the sort of thing that would appeared on Listeners Mez at Hollandix all the way back in 2022 or something.

It's one of the crown jewels of satisfying moments in football, which is goalkeepers doing extracurricular activity.

Yeah, I do really like this one.

And I always think when you watch it, you're always nervous, aren't you, when your keeper comes out and launches themselves at the ball.

And it's often a launch as well.

It's not like they just come out and just sort of nod it.

It's never a little nod, it's always almost a diving header.

It's almost the only place you sort of see a almost diving header these days.

But when they do do it, you think,

I'm always amazed that actually they pull it off as well as they do a lot of the time.

Because it's quite rare that a goalkeeper goes for it with their heads and they don't make proper contact with it and clear it.

Sometimes when they go to kick it when they're outside of the box, yeah, maybe they'll slice it or they'll miss it or whatever.

But when they go for their head, no one's really going up for it with them, are they?

Exactly.

It's very unorthodox, actually, Charlie, because the spectacle of a goalkeeper coming out and using their head is usually overrides the actual act itself.

It's a very unusual form of header, it's essentially a half-volleyed header, you know, to use the phrase generously.

The ball's on the rise, and they have to head it away.

Players don't often head the ball like that, and so to get distance and direction on a ball that's bouncing upwards is actually quite hard.

So it's fraught with danger.

It's also the great thing about it is that, especially nowadays, like last ditch defending is so out of fashion.

Like if a defender was sort of heading in such a panicked way, you'd sort of be like, what are you doing?

Like you should have more about you.

Defenders are expected, you know, a defender would be expected to kind of bring that down under control, head it to a teammate, or if they are going to head it out, at least head it out, you know, looking a bit more deliberate about this.

Yes.

There's something so kind of kamikaze and desperate about a keeper because they are.

They know, like, if I do get this wrong, we are completely fucked.

So they just seeing them like launch themselves and it being acceptable, you know, even in this day and age, I don't think teams will be like, oh, you know, you've got to have better, be better with your head than that goalkeeper.

It's fine still to just fly out and get rid of it.

And even though, as I said, most of the times they're successful, and I'm sure this happens to goalkeepers maybe more often than we would think.

It still also feels to me that every time they do it, they're not quite certain that they're going to go their head until the last split second.

You can sort of you can sense a little bit of

panic in the situation.

It's an aggressively horizontal moment of a televised football game when a ball races over the top, a goalkeeper races out, heads it back in the other direction, probably quite forcibly, Charlie.

And TV, sort of the traditional TV angle, has never really found a way to accommodate this because what you end up with is half a second.

of complete uncertainty as a TV viewer about where that ball is falling.

Because if it's falling to an opposition player, then the whole new chapter of drama ensues.

And but also also in that moment of uncertainty, the idea that it might fall to an opposition player and they have the ability to just return it with interest back into the goal, I think is slightly exaggerated.

I think it takes a lot of skill to hit that first time.

Yeah, it does, but it is still a terrifying prospect to have like an unguarded goal just does fill you with

anxiety.

Like you see when goalkeepers come out and they're getting on the ball and you know, obviously now they do it all the time, but it's still if you, depending on where you're sat, like in a stadium in particular, you look up and you're like, God, the goal is completely unguarded.

Like, if this gets into set, we are like a misplaced pass away from someone having a free shot at an empty net.

And I do think, as well, what's good about this is you can almost see the goalkeeper thinking about the fact that the next thing they have to do is leg it back to their own goal.

So, almost like from the moment they land, they're doing that.

So, there's so much going on.

Do you think it's the last area of goalkeeping that still doesn't really get talked about in any sense?

Because you've obviously got, you know, really good shot stopper, great distribution, good with his feet commanding comes for crosses you never hear anyone say look for a goalkeeper he's great in the air as well

you don't but what you would say is good starting position that's the sort of like go-to oh I know a little bit about goalkeeping and defending things I say about that and he gets it because he's got a great starting position very kind of sort of results dictated that claim though isn't it I mean

no one ever really sort of casually talks about a goalkeeper starting position before they get to the ball are they always

Just so you know, I have noted his starting position already before he's actually got involved.

Trust me,

when the moment comes, it will really pay off.

There is a moment where they basically have to decide whether they're going to head straight upfield and essentially gamble on where the ball's going to go, or the more business-like, just literally heading out of play and getting back into their area.

But Dave, no matter how risky they go, even if they do choose the safety option, they are guaranteed a round of applause from the fans.

Oh, very much so.

But I guess that decision depends on how central the ball is over the top that they're coming to deal with.

If it's

closest to the touchline, then you can get it out.

But if it's like right in the middle of the pitch, you do well to head it confidently out of play from the center of the pitch in that scenario, especially if

you're running straight at it as well.

Yeah, maybe this is where the trajectory of the ball kind of helps.

If it's on a rise anyway, and you're basically just helping it on its way, it's like,

I don't know, like a hooked volley, like a hooked half-volley in tennis.

You basically just go helping on its way to the other side of the court.

Maybe that could, you could hit it.

Do you think goalkeepers ever practice this scenario?

Yeah,

so.

Training.

I reckon they do, yeah.

Like, you've got to be sharp because it's about the, not so much the heading aspect, but the speed off your line to get to the ball.

Because as well, if you don't, you could get a red card.

Like, if you are a bit slow, you don't quite get there in time, you clatter into an attacker.

But I think the purest one is the offer of throw-in.

That's.

Yeah.

That's the most kind of like, I'm not effing about.

Of course, you know, a training drill for this would mitigate against the circumstances where the ball bounces clean over their head, Dave, which has to be right up there as one of the most mortifying moments as a professional footballer when you haven't judged the bounce of a ball.

And a very Sunday league thing to happen, I think.

Yeah, yeah.

And the thing about it, when you've right up to the last second, you think you're going to get there and then you just go, oh no, I've misjudged it.

This is quite topical at the moment because Charlie, England's goalkeeper, Hannah Hampton, has no depth perception due to a sort of eye sort of condition she was born with.

She has no depth perception as a goalkeeper.

And she's essentially had to train that way.

And I'm not saying I sympathise because I don't have the eye disorder, but what I am saying is when I had to go and goal at Sunday League, my depth perception was so shit.

Like it is genuine skill to know what pace the ball is coming directly at you from down the pitch.

To have to judge it and get there in time and not have it bounce over your head is a genuine skill.

It's incredible.

Incredible she's been able to overcome that.

I know it's mad.

Fair play.

Right.

Thank you to Tim Kelly.

That's your fascinations taken care of for July.

We'll be back very shortly with your irritations.

Attention, all small biz owners.

At the UPS store, you can count on us to handle your packages with care.

With our certified packing experts, your packages are properly packed and protected.

And with our pack and ship guarantee, when we pack it and ship it, we guarantee it.

Because your items arrive safe or you'll be reimbursed.

Visit the ups store.com slash guarantee for full details.

Most locations are independently owned.

Product services, pricing, and hours of operation may vary.

See Center for Details.

The UPS Store.

Be unstoppable.

Come into your local store today.

At Blinds.com, it's not just about window treatments.

It's about you, your style, your space, your way.

Whether you DIY or want the pros to handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right.

From free expert design help to our 100% satisfaction guarantee, everything we do is made to fit your life and your windows.

Because at blinds.com, the only thing we treat better than windows is you.

Visit Blinds.com now for up to 50% off with minimum purchase plus a professional measure at no cost.

Rules and restrictions apply.

Dreaming of buying your first car or new home?

Knowing your FICO score is the first step to making it real.

With MyFICO, you can check your score for free and it won't hurt your credit.

You'll get your FICO score, full credit reports, and real-time alerts all in one simple app.

Your credit score is more than just numbers.

It's the key to building the future you've been working toward.

Visit myfico.com slash free or download the MyFICO app and take the mystery out of your FICO score.

Oh, look at that!

That is wonderful!

Welcome back to Football Cliches.

This is the listeners mezza Harlan Dicks for July.

We've done your fascinations.

Now it's time for your irrational irritations.

We kick things off with John Kroll.

So my irritation is when you're watching a film that is set in a certain era and one of the characters happens to be kicking a football round and they perform a trick or a skill that is just so obviously not from that era and it happened most recently watching something set in the early 70s and somebody did a rainbow flick and i just thought would they be doing that in the early 70s in northern ireland i don't know about that and it made me just think how bad does it have to actually be before it gets pulled?

Like, what about when that kid was kicking that block of ice around on the Titanic?

And if he just pulled out an elastico or something, surely someone should have flagged that and just go, whoa, whoa, whoa.

My two favourite bits of this, Charlie, are one, the shade thrown at Northern Irish football in the 1970s, and two,

by some distance, the concept of a kid doing an elastico on the deck of the Titanic with a block of ice.

Imagine, imagine if he'd snuck that in, and James Cameron, like later on, going, oh, for fuck's sake.

Famously temperamental, he would have absolutely lost his mind.

I suppose an elastico with a block of ice might be slightly easier than a ball.

Your foot's going to slide around.

Stick to it.

Yeah.

If it was bare skin, yeah, it might stick to it.

Imagine, imagine, sort of, I don't know.

Not even at the time, maybe 20 years later watching Titanic and then just noticing that that had happened and being the first person to notice that some kid had rolled out an Elastico.

In what, 1996?

It would have been filmed?

1997.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, maybe filmed in 96.

So, yeah, so around the time of Oh Phenomeno himself.

So I think it would have been in someone's consciousness.

If he'd watched enough episode of Urugals, I think it would have been a possibility.

But would that be acceptable in the IMDb goofs section of Titanic, Dave, if a kid had done an Elastico on the dynamo?

The whole thing is absolutely brilliant.

It's like the stormtrooper hitting its head on the thing in Star Wars.

It's a famous thing that just gets left in.

Well, who did the Elastico?

I think Rivolino must have invented the Elastico, right?

So that would have been 70s.

Elastico football.

The flip-flop, of course, as it's known.

Yeah, it was invented by Rivolino, who learned it in 1964 from his Corinthians teammate Echigo.

So it's possible.

So, yeah, it would have to reverse the goof.

So, actually, it turns out it's fine.

Well, it could have been brought over to Brazil from some old bloke who was a survivor of the Titanic.

Jao Havalach.

For example.

Yeah, to go all the way back to 1912.

It then got passed down the generations.

So like Charlie,

let's take a random generic film and there is a purely incidental piece of football action.

It's not the point of the film, it's just some kids playing in a playground or something.

If you are the director of this film and you don't want them to do anything too outlandish, don't worry about the era-specific activity.

You want them to don't do anything too silly.

You're basically saying to these kids, what What move are they doing?

Like, what's the most playing football incidentally in a film move?

A step over?

Yeah, a stepover is probably fine, but they don't really just kick it.

Just do really basic.

Just have some shots.

Right, sure, Dutch.

Don't take any chances.

Just, you know, have some shots.

Just keep it up there.

Parries it away.

You know, that's been around for...

donkeys years.

Stepover is your go-to, but it's also, I think, possibly one of the worst ones you can use because it's actually quite hard to do a convincing stepover.

Yeah.

You end up doing like the Phil Neville stepover where you're just

your legs going so high over the ball.

Like a cam can.

I might be Mandela affecting this a bit, but I'm sure there's a scene in the Sopranos where Meadow Soprano is playing soccer and Tony's watching on.

And I'm sure she pulls out a step over and it's rubbish.

But we've all seen those, it's sort of kids playing football and there's like there's somebody's running through and the defence is just sort of non-existent and they just pull out a little step over for no reason.

It doesn't even help them in when they're just running through the middle of the pitch.

Well, of course, the Rainbow Flick, I don't know which film John Kroll was watching, the way you saw a Rainbow Flick being performed in 1970s Northern Ireland, Charlie, but the Rainbow Flick was, of course, even more famously rolled out by Ozzy R.

Delez in Escape to Victory, which was set in 1943.

So, I mean, there's lots about that film which are very era-defying, that's for sure.

The haircuts, the track suits, everything.

But I'm not saying, what I'm saying is there's precedent here.

So maybe it's all right.

Yeah, I think that they've they probably accepted.

Yeah, we're not going for realism here.

Could it have been

a tricky one?

George Best could do a rainbow flick.

He never did one in a game, but I reckon he was capable.

He might have done one in a game that wasn't filmed.

And maybe these kids in Northern Ireland, they saw him do it.

I mean, it could work.

Yeah, John Crowell, lovely stuff.

Enjoyed that.

Your next irritation for July comes from Warren Heyman.

A long-held football irritation of mine.

I'm all for retro kits.

If you want to wear a retro kit, go for it.

We all like them.

However, if you are going to wear a retro kit, make sure it has Adidas, Nike, Kappa, Budka, Spall, whatever that retro kit manufacturer is upon it.

Don't have one which has got a big gap because we all know it's not official.

Now, the one you're wearing may not be official, but at least try and make it look official by having the requisite manufacturer on it.

It really annoys me.

Thank you very much for listening.

Now, we are at a strange phase of the retro shirt explosion, Dave, where I'm still struggling to shake off the exact irritation that Warren Heyman describes here, which is every time I see someone wearing a retro shirt in the crowd or something like that, I will immediately check to see whether it's a true original or if it's indeed something from Scoredraw or Tesco's or something like that, where they've managed to get the rights to do every aspect.

Yeah, I think they do sell sort of vaguely retro-y kind of football shirts in Tesco, but where they've apparently allowed to use all the kind of imagery and intellectual aspect of the retro football show except for the manufacturer's logo.

Why?

Why is it just that last bit that's the clincher?

Yeah, it is strange.

I mean, obviously,

literally,

the manufacturer is different.

So I can understand it from that point of view.

Like, Nike or Adidas or Mizuno

wouldn't want their logo to be on a product that they've not made themselves.

They can't guarantee the quality.

I get that.

It's fair enough.

Why doesn't that then apply to the sponsors as well?

They don't care.

They're fine with it.

I suppose a lot of the companies don't exist anymore from the retro kits.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Once a company goes busty, you're just allowed to use their logo, willy-nilly.

England shirts are really bad for this, Charlie.

I mean, the England retro shirt explosion.

But I mean, just,

I couldn't, in all consciousness, wear a shirt like that if it didn't have the Admiral logo on the side or something like that.

Come on, do it properly.

Just pay Admiral a bit of money and then let them do it.

Come on.

Oh, I've always been very...

Yeah,

I've never liked wearing...

Like, I've got nothing, you know, I've bought cheap kits, like the best best of them in Southeast Asia or whatever but they look proper.

There's nothing missing from them only a you know, there's nothing to say they're not.

They look right.

Genuine fakes.

They're genuine fake.

When um but you know the ones where anything's out of place, it's just like that looks terrible.

I'd rather I'd rather wear nothing than one of them.

Nothing.

Yeah, I suppose though in a way it's like it shows the sort of the way these things have been embedded into our minds and what they mean.

Because when football shirts first started being sold, and like having the manufacturer's logo on there is

literally just a sort of from the company to say, look, we made this shirt.

Yeah.

Whereas now we're looking at it as almost as important as the badge of the club and of the sponsor.

It's all part of, it's part of the whole thing.

It's not functional anymore.

It's part of the aesthetic.

And to not have it there, it sort of does ruin it.

And I've got a few of these.

I've got a few Watford shirts.

And yeah, I do, when I occasionally might want to wear one at Five Aside, or not often, but I sometimes might wear one to a match like if it's in August or end of the season or something and when I'm deciding I'm always gonna go for one of the ones that's official rather than one of the

new retro ones and also it kind of creates this two-tier fandom where you look at people and you go oh that nice you've got that's the real one you've paid 150 quid for that on classic football shirts haven't you I'm sorry but it's true.

It's absolutely you know there are people out there who have a retro shirt and they don't care whether it's not properly legit or not.

Charlie, which shirt in history is the most retroed?

Like, which is the most common, whether it's legit or not?

I think it's England 1990, perhaps.

Yeah, that must be up.

I mean, the England Euro 96 one as well.

There's a Spurs one that's famous.

I did a piece on Spurs kits years ago, and there was a great line.

I think it was one of the Hummel ones.

But it was kind of, you know, someone said it was like...

a thousand years and civilization's pretty much ended.

You will still find someone walking around with this kind of hummel 1980s Spurs shirt.

It is a very cool shirt, but that's like that's the go-to in Tottenham Land.

Bruce Banana, ask you.

Yeah.

I actually would say that would cross the threshold for not being able to use the design.

I think that's so iconic for Adidas.

They would be like, Can you not?

Can you not do that?

I mean, if you were going to the full extreme, I'd say the shirt that's perhaps been genericized the most to that, you know, way beyond whether, you know, minor details.

It's a shirt that's just been used as a template.

Maybe Brazil 70.

I feel like supermarkets have been getting away with just using a yellow shirt with green trim for ages.

And it's thinking, wow,

I know it's the same as 70, but what are you going to do about it?

What supermarkets are you going to with all these football shirts in?

Down your way, big Sainos and Tesco's.

You can't move for them.

There's a Waitrose down your way as well, Adam.

I believe.

Yeah,

Waitrose would never stoop that low, by the way, Charlie.

But yeah, when tournaments come around, you'll see them.

You'll see them.

They've probably even got a little score draw concession, actually, these supermarkets, because that's the level that this brand plummets to.

I feel bad for slating scored at least twice in this episode but still um warren heyman you're on to something and uh yeah but yeah two-tier fandom is exactly right dave i don't mind being a snob about this it's absolutely right next and the final irritation from our listeners for july comes from andrew gournall so my irritation is the lack of chips available at football grounds i'm not sure what's happened but i'm currently doing the 92 for my sins and you can't find them anywhere burgers pies all good for some reason hot dogs are very popular now Ridiculous stack at football ground, in my opinion.

But no chips anywhere.

The game's gone.

Charlie, what do you think?

Do you think there's a really boring health and safety reason why chips are not sold at elite level football grounds?

Is this like alcohol?

Does it go all the way back to the 80s?

Is that hooligan?

Something about the fryer required.

It probably is something to do with the deep fat fryer.

They just don't want them being run in football stadiums.

That must be it.

But otherwise, I mean, chips as a project, potential projectile, as a missile.

I mean, they're going to...

No one's worried about a chip being thrown onto the pit.

I reckon that you've got it.

You've got to factor these things in.

It might be.

There's no way a hot chip is going to stay hot while it flies through the air and hits someone.

So there's no burn possibility.

Chips famously travel badly.

Yeah.

Too soggy by the time it gets there.

I think it is practical, like you say.

If you think about the types of food that you have in stadiums, it's pies, burgers, and hot dogs, sometimes burgers, sausage rolls, things that can be put in, that can be heated up in a small electric oven and then put in a hot cabinet

for a child to go and pick out and give it to someone.

You don't want these kids who are the most people who staff these kiosks are sort of teenagers.

You don't want them to be operating a deep fat fryer in the thick of it at half-time while some exasperate.

And there's always like one bloke who's like the manager who's just like sweating and just really stressed watching all the kids sort of half-assed giving out the sausage rolls.

Another thing I would love to know on the subject of there must be a good reason for this is, you know, that like mad half-time rush and the queues back up and they're like pouring pints as they go.

Why not pre-pour pints?

Like, it's not as if this half-time rush comes as a surprise.

Like surely they're not like, God, it suddenly got busy.

Like if only if only we'd been forewarned.

Just pre-pour a shitload.

Surely that would make everyone's life so much easier.

And you don't have to do it loads of time.

I think there's something tinpot about that from a drinker's perspective.

I don't want to pre-poured pints.

I think it's a good thing.

I would 100% rather that than be standing around for basically the whole of half-time.

Yeah, you do not get like

exactly.

Like, you will not, at that point, you're like, you're drinking anything.

So I don't think you'd mind that much if it was ever so slightly warmer.

I mean, Dave, as a famed pintsman, it's an impersonal thing, isn't it, to have a pre-poured pint.

You want port one poured just for you, right?

I'm not a pintsman when it comes to football matches.

Okay.

You seldom see me with a pint in my hand in a football stadium.

But I do agree.

I think you would want it poured fresh and, yeah, just sort of all the pints.

You get ready for the Champions League with Watford, is that why?

Exactly.

Oh, not within view of the pitch.

I do think, to come back to the chips thing, I bet that there are grounds these days.

I mean, hospitality is obviously a different thing entirely.

But there must be some grounds that do have like a loaded fries or there's like a slightly more semi-hospitality premium food offering in one bit of the stadium

chips.

All goes out the window once you're behind the barriers, behind the windows, and you can get it served to you like that.

But you can't chuck it on with such ease.

But, I mean, you can't get a portion of chips at a Premier League ground, Charlie.

That appears to be the case here.

But, you know, you go somewhere like Footy Scran and cheesy chips all over the place.

So, at what level of non-league do chips do you think kick in and it becomes a viable thing all of a sudden?

Why is it more viable to cook chips at a little van at a non-league ground than at a Premier League football stadium?

Well, maybe, as Dave said, because there's less of this kind of mad rush.

So, you're not cooking them in industrial amounts.

Maybe they're less understaffed,

conversely.

I don't know.

It's literally a chip van.

They've got the kit in the van, exactly.

They're experienced operators.

They're doing this seven days a week.

Whereas these youngsters who turn up,

they just know the game.

They don't know.

You don't want them operating a deep fat fryer.

It would be a disaster.

Something would go wrong.

I can't believe we've got bogged down in health and safety sort of speculation here.

Dave, from a spiritual perspective, chips are the most footbally snack, like the most acceptably football-y snack that you could eat in the stands that don't that currently aren't allowed or currently don't exist.

Like, we've seen these sort of mild Twitter furorees about people having popcorn at Wembley during an Indie game.

Yeah, it's like, oh God, they're not a proper football.

What's he eating popcorn for?

He came shit 10 minutes into the second half with a bloody pizza.

Yeah.

A whole pizza.

Yeah.

You see people coming out of a box with a box box and you sit there and open it.

That's weird.

That's too ice hockey, isn't it?

You can't have that.

But chips are fine.

Chips are a one-handed situation, Charlie.

You can literally dip into them, eat them, scrunch up the thing, probably throw it under your seat.

Like everything's fine.

Everything's fine.

But it feels like a Rubicon that needs to be crossed.

I mean, yeah, because there is that challenge of trying to, if you can, ordering like the chips and a burger at a football ground, you're like, oh, just don't have the hand, the wingspan here.

Just don't have the hand.

Not well resourced enough hand-wise for this.

Yeah.

Short-staffed, like the clubs.

Are there economies of scale here?

How much should a portion of chips be at a Premier League stadium?

You're probably looking at about five quid per

pouch.

Pouch.

I'll have a pouch of chips, please.

That moment when you can't figure out the word carton.

Bag of chips, I think.

Would do.

Well, no, no.

Pouch of chips.

Bag of chips to me is like a family amount, a massive bag of chips from the chip ship.

That's not, you wouldn't never get that appropriate.

That'd be like 20 quid.

I'm thinking of the McDonald's size carton.

Come back up to the stands with a carrier bag

full of chips and fish, obvious samalloids in there, mushy peas.

Who would have?

Swimming around in it.

See, that would be frowned upon.

That would be frowned upon during a game.

That would be absolutely insane.

But yeah, but just...

Let's miss a good point, actually.

Why have a McDonald's franchised into a football stadium at some point?

It would work, surely.

Just a little McDonald's or Burger King on the concourse.

They'd make a killing.

An absolute killing.

There are some just outside, though, aren't they?

Like MK Dons, I think, has

a Burger King on McDonald's stadium just as you go in, basically.

Great knowledge.

Franchise FC, taking it to the max.

Andrew Gaudall, you've absolutely opened up

a pouch of chips with that one.

A great way to finish our listeners' irritations for this month.

Thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshare.

Thank you, and thank you for

those great suggestions.

Thanks to you, Dave Walker.

Thank you.

Thanks to everyone for listening.

The clichés pub will be back on Thursday with the Football Cliches Quiz 20.

See you then.

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.

Support for this podcast and the following message comes from America's Navy.

The Navy offers new graduates hands-on training and experience in careers like computer science, aviation, and medicine, plus education and sign-on bonuses.

Parents, help your grads start their career today at Navy.com.

You say you'll never join the Navy.

That you'd never track storms brewing in the Atlantic.

And skydiving to could never be part of your community.

You'd never climb Mount Fuji on a port visit.

Or fly so fast, you break the sound barrier.

Joining the Navy sounds crazy, saying never actually is.

Start your journey at Navy.com, America's Navy, forged by the sea.