Prince William's punditry, TNT's "hipster gunk" and a gift from the Keys & Gray gods

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I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like.

Is Gascoyne gonna have a crack?

He is, you know.

Oh, I see!

Brilliant!

Jeez!

He's round the goalkeeper!

He's done it!

Absolutely incredible!

He launched himself six feet into the crowd and Kung Fu kicked a supportler who was

without a shadow of a doubt getting him lip.

Oh, I say,

it's amazing!

He does it tame, and tame and tame again.

Break up the music!

Charge a glass!

This nation is going to dance all night!

Can you return to the scene of a momentous win if it's your home ground?

The great Prince William Punditry Pandemonium, which Premier League club would produce the least interesting in-house documentary right now, the Roaring Back Threshold, Rescinded Red Cards at School, Billy Sharp's 53 second sending off, the self-proclaimed inventor of the pre-assist, and two desperately needed hours of Keys, Gray, and Jason McAteer in their finest broadcasting form.

Brought to your ears by Goalhanger Podcasts.

This is Football Clichés.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Football Clichés.

I'm Adam Hurry.

This is the adjudication panel.

On that panel with me today, Charlie Eccleshare, how you doing?

Very well, thank you.

Feeling recharged for this.

Oh, good.

Well, good to have you back.

Alongside you, David Walker, how are you doing?

I'm very good.

Last week was interesting, but let's not rake over old grounds.

You boosted the attendance of the final of the Donovan Thomas Cup final, at least.

We'll see.

But I've got a question for you both, actually.

Charlie, you in particular might have a view on this, but both of you.

I was messaged by a friend of mine, Gareth, after Arsenal's European heroics on Tuesday against Real Madrid and simply asked me whether or not Arsenal were in Dreamland.

And it's quite rare for Arsenal to bring in Dreamland territory.

You know, I don't know what point he would have turned into Dreamland during the game, but was this the most elite-level Dreamlanding ever?

That's the point I would make.

I would agree.

And funny enough, I was asked about Dreamland as well.

Like, clearly, it was, it did have that feel to it.

I think that the fact that it's Real Madrid would almost mean anyone beat it, because we've talked about that before, haven't we?

That it's kind of, is it too small time

for certain teams?

But I struggle to think of a team beating, you know, the great Real Madrid, the Real Madrid, who always find a way in the Champions League, and they still might.

To be beating them 3-0 and with those goals, I think almost any team, like even not Man City, because they sort of exist in a different realm, but I can't really think of many who wouldn't be in Dreamland against the Champions League holders with that scoreline and the types of goals that they were.

I think it's a really good test of the upper limits of Dreamland, certainly.

You have to factor in as well that Arsenal's relative lack of Champions League pedigree in the grand scheme of things, they haven't won the competition before.

They're not European giants in that respect.

So they are, their storyline is that they're hunting for their first ever Champions League title and they're on course for it.

So in that sense, Dreamland comes into the equation.

It's Dreamland for that purpose.

And yeah, throwing Real Madrid, 3-0 is an absolute tipping point for it at home in the first leg.

Was it Marino's goal that confirmed the Dreamland, or were they already in Dreamland after the second Rice free kick?

Oh, that's tricky.

I think that does tip it into it because, as well,

as you said, 3-0 as a scoreline is you're in the realms because

you've taken them into the realms of now a second leg needs to be a big collapse.

Whereas a 2-0, I think they'd still have been the, you know, well, who's the favorites from here?

You know, Real Madrid at the Burnabelle 2-0.

You know, you'd almost expect them to turn that around.

But the real-time Dreamlanding was very much on offer when the second free kick went in because obviously the nature of the free kick, as good as it was, and also it was the second in what, how many minutes between them?

Very quick.

Yeah, so it was a really quick fire thing.

So you barely have time to process the first goal.

The fact that it put Arsenal was in the ascendancy, giving them the advantage.

So

I like to think that it could have been a Dreamland situation.

So very generous Dream Landing, I think, but good case study.

And finally, are they still in Dreamland now?

Is it Dreamland last go all the way to the second leg?

I think a stodgy one-all draw with Brentford is kind of the pumpkin at midnight of that.

Like, I think they could have been in Dreamland pretty much till that game started.

That was called a European hangover as well.

Yeah, and you've suffered the European hangover.

I think that kind of punctures it a bit.

It wakes you up.

Still haven't decided whether European hangover means after a really good European victory or a defeat.

I think it definitely can mean both.

It's a really, really carefully curated adjudication panel today, as normal, like any other.

Lots of things going on.

But history, I think, is going to remember this episode.

But history, I think, will remember it merely as the precursor to one of the most comprehensive keys and grey corners of all time.

Here's a little teaser.

Thank you for joining us.

We're just going to have some fun over the next couple of hours.

No idea what's going to happen.

Whose idea?

By the way, whose idea was this?

It's a collective.

No, who's a number of different ideas?

If we were at the golf club this afternoon,

would we have any trouble at all in filling two hours talking about specifically football?

Absolutely not.

We didn't last Thursday.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And occasionally we might stray into other areas.

Would that be the case?

Yeah.

Easy.

Here we are.

It was a gift from the gods.

I can't wait to share it with everyone.

But let's get on to topical matters in the adjudication panel.

This first one came from G.H.

Evans.

Here is Manish Bassin on Premier League Productions duty on Saturday, setting the scene for the day's fixtures.

Arsenal returned to the scene of their midweek Champions League heroics to take on Bren Philip, the Emirates.

Charlie, easy question for you.

Can you return to the scene of a past success?

G.H.

Evans asks, when the scene is your home ground.

You'll be back there all the time.

Oh, no.

It's true, yeah, that would be a hard one to shake off if it was a really bad thing that happened.

Oh, here again for the 25th time this season.

This does a real disservice, Dave, to the concept of returning to the scene of past triumph.

It should be something that happens on a biannual basis, maximum.

What would the most common usage be for that phrase?

Would it be, I don't know, if you win the League Cup final and then you find yourself in an NFA Cup semi-final a month later?

Or I think

if you clinch a title at another ground, then I think that's the return to the scene of...

What, in an innocuous future fixture, you mean?

Yeah, kind of.

Yeah.

So like the following season, you know, in 95, 96, Blackburn

back at Anfield returning to the scene of the club's greatest triumph.

You know,

I think that's a perfectly possible intro.

Or perhaps, I don't know, like if you win a European final at a neutral ground and you return there to play a team who play there anyway.

Because it's a separate scene is what I'm saying.

You're not returning to play the same lot.

You're not repeating the situation.

It's a separate scene that happened and just happened to happen at that stadium.

But I'm not having it at your home ground.

No.

It doesn't work at the home ground.

But

I think you do need some...

The proximity, I think, is important.

I don't think it can be too long before you're returning to the scene.

Oh, I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Could Chelsea return to the scene of their 2012 European club triumph by going to the Alliance Arena?

I think that's a returning to the scene.

I think they could, yeah.

Is the personnel important?

Does it have to be at least one of the same people returning to the scene?

I don't think in that instance there would be, would there?

So I think think it's fine.

Oh, I don't know.

I don't think a club can return to the scene.

I think you have to have some of the same people going, oh, we've been here before.

I don't know.

Let's

dwell on Champions League heroics, though, because some, I think, excessive praise went in the direction of Prince William, his Royal Highness, after Charlie, his allegedly brilliant punditry before the game.

It was a bit weird, wasn't it?

Was it a bit weird?

But this is what I've talked about before, is like with famous people, and obviously he is like the absolute zenith of this, is is that when they do when they sort of walk and talk like functioning vaguely normal human beings it's sort of like what it's like utterly mind-blowing so obviously in our heads well to most people he's he's just on this like completely other planet so so speaking in like vaguely coherent football talk is just like oh did you see oh my gosh william can he knows a bit about football kind of blows everyone's mind i actually didn't see his punditry but i did see the clip of him in the tunnel

shaking the hands of all the players as they came back in from the warm-up.

It was really weird.

It's like you say, Charlie, it's like watching him talk in a sort of normal-ish kind of way is a very strange thing for us to see.

He was almost being a bit like

Andy Gray almost.

Every player that walked past him was going, big man.

Great to see you, big man.

And he like stopped one of them.

He's like, new contract.

I'm so pleased for you.

So deserved.

He was really, like, really getting stuck into every single player.

but info about each one is i've got i've got one on you wait just wait i've got one uh uh i can't think of one i know this sort of comedic device is is really overused but i am genuinely very curious to know if andy gray and prince william have ever been compared in any way before dave just did it then i genuinely would love to know that and where in the history of recorded sound or print that has happened best not speculate on the on the finding nuances of that i mean i think dave the tipping point for what impressed so many onlookers and by which i mean media outlets outlets, was Prince Williams sort of suggesting how Astavilla could deal with the PSG press.

And it was maybe go long every now and then.

It's like that, that is going to get them going.

Like, it's so

on vogue talking about that sort of thing.

So if you can nail that sort of thing, you're a tactico, right?

Do you think he was briefed by his private secretary about that before?

What a job!

Again, it's like being a consultant for a few.

Yeah, that would be really fun.

Yeah.

It's a few pointers.

I've got highness.

I've been on fbref.com.

Um, yeah, the fawning didn't stop for hours, days, in fact.

TNT Sports was still talking about it on Saturday lunchtime before kickoff at the Etahad.

John, what a potent as well, the future king was.

Oh, he's brilliant, brilliant, absolutely.

Listen, I'm a big royalist, I love the royal family.

Prince William, top drawer.

Great rhythm to it.

Top draw.

I think, Dave, I I think Prince William also got a top man from one of the Twitter video aggregating merchants and it was just like, I suppose literally he is.

Well, he's second top man, I guess.

Exactly, yeah, not quite.

One day.

Heir to the top man.

My goodness.

But yeah, there's there's really no sense in us delving into Prince William's punditry, but um encouraging response to it anyway.

Next up there, this came from Rob Graham.

Peterburg became the first ever back-to-back winners of the EFL Trophy at Wembley this weekend, beating Birmingham City, and their fans were waxing lyrical about manager Darren Ferguson.

It was great wasn't it?

Yeah it's been a really good day.

If he was called Fergusinio he'd be manager of Real Madrid right now.

He was tactically spot on today.

Now obviously in the excitement Dave we can understand why he's just gone for the you know default Brazilian option here but they don't necessarily make great managers.

No.

You know why delay Luxembourg was a disaster at the Birmingham.

Is it that's what I thought is it a mourinho is that what he's sort of going for

possibly actually because to be fair Portugal they are a sort of they punch above their weight manager wise don't they yeah when are we going to get the first manager who is who who has the default name of something ino whether it's portuguese or brazilian like it seems to be very much a sort of player thing rather than a manager is is it is it not respectful enough does it not i mean it means little doesn't it so is that good for a manager probably not no you don't want to have that eh no also uh as a staunch efl man dave the efl trophy doesn't feel like a trophy that anybody should retain for like you just you know you just happen to win it.

You don't gun for the EFL trophy, do you?

They're returning to the scene of last year's victory in the trophy.

Even as a seasoned EFL watcher, I have to say, this one took me by surprise.

When I saw them promote it in the build-up to the Newcastle Man United game yesterday, I was like oh gosh, that's happening, is it?

Peterbury and Birmingham are at Wembley today, are they?

I mean, there was probably not, if not a sell-out, probably pretty full, I imagine, at Wembley yesterday.

And you're just completely unaware of it.

It just happens in its own little bubble.

Could they go for the three-peat next year?

Imagine like Seville and the UA for club.

Just they're specialists.

Absolute specialists.

They love the Tuesday, Saturday grind.

Maybe we have hit the nadir of people changing people's names into foreign names to make them sound better.

This one came from Max Wirth.

He was a Nottingham Forest fan, saying, I've said it before and I'll say it again.

If Nicolas Dominguez was called Nick Domino and

had spent 95% of his life living in Stapleford, we'd want a lifetime contract for him and demand he plays every game for the national team.

No frills, works hard and a bloody good player.

You've got to make the name English.

Yeah, I was going to say

your classic English name, Domino.

It's like Domingo from Little Oakley, isn't it?

What is Nick Domino?

Nick Domino is like just an absurd billionaire who owns half of London, like someone like that.

He's a superhero or something.

Nick Domino, the superhero.

What's his superpower?

I don't know.

Adding up.

Nick Domino.

Yeah, Marvel, the next.

Yeah, he's a guy.

He gambles or something.

You know, he sort of takes lots of chances, isn't he?

They all pay off.

Saves old men outside cafes in Europe.

I don't know.

Right.

The vanquished Birmingham City, Dave,

are the next cab on the rank when it comes to releasing a in-house club documentary.

I opined on Twitter, not with any great feeling behind it, that we all should stop making behind-the-scenes football club documentaries.

We're not going to learn anything more from them.

They're all the same.

And Dylan Jacins asked, who's the least documentary required club in the prem?

Is it Wolves?

Who are the most unremarkable team in that very specific sense?

Well, you could probably take your pick from any of the sort of Fulham mid-table fodder, right?

Yeah, Fulham.

The Marco Super Revolution.

It's just about strong enough, isn't it?

How interesting would Bournemouth be?

I mean, I guess Iriola and what a job he's done down there.

Yeah.

Now, West Ham are quite a newsy club, but then you wouldn't see any of the interesting stuff.

That's kind of the point of these things.

You'd need them to be a shambles behind the scenes for that to be a good documentary.

Otherwise, it's just, yep, we've got a big old stadium.

We don't know what to do with it.

But that's the problem.

Like you say, Charlie, you never, you never, with these documentaries, they're increasingly manicured productions, often with, you know, commissioned by the club and that sort of thing.

And even the Amazon ones, you know, it's really difficult.

I actually know someone who worked on the Klop documentary that's been released recently on Amazon.

And it sounds like such a nightmare trying to get

genuinely insightful material and you're left having to sort of patch it all together and stuff and and also like there probably is a Wolves documentary they probably made their own one all the all the clubs make their own ones and put them on their YouTube channels anyway before the likes of Amazon and Disney you know get involved yeah they're not worthy of the name anymore are they they're not yeah not real documentaries are they but but it's also the fact that obviously Tom Brady's involvement um at Birmingham kind of is just taken as read as though that's enough for it to be interesting but what he's he turns up to what a couple of games a season he was there yesterday

it's disgusting that they're called tom brady's birmingham he he owns fuck all he owns nothing of the club like it's it's a fraction of a percent as i understand it uh it that that should not be allowed like trade description should get involved in this uh or at least good journalism should get involved in this and not

discriminate against it just fawning over him it's it's ridiculous it's ridiculous sick of tom brady i hate his face to their credit at least with wrexham which is kind of the the model that everyone follows here,

those two are genuinely involved.

They are hands-on as much as you could be in their roles.

Yeah, Tom Brady.

It's the same with, like, what's the guy, Michael B.

Jordan's involved with

Bournemouth.

So they just sort of turn up now and again, and it's

as if they own the club.

Luca Modric is just

become part minority owner of Swansea, hasn't he, I think, as well.

Get that a documentary for you.

You just watched Leon Britton once in 2013-14 and said, ah, I want a bit of that action.

Right.

Alex Christian asks next, Charlie.

Man City came roaring back against Crystal Palace, and it's an open-shut case of roaring.

But what are the parameters?

Can you roar back from 1-0 down?

Do you have to take the lead?

Is it about the atmosphere?

So more likely to happen at home?

Adjudication needed.

I mean, so, yeah, they roared back from 2-0 down, Charlie, but I think, as Alex says,

you can roar back from one, can't you?

Because I mean, the turnaround itself is roaring enough, surely.

Yeah, you can, but I think obviously with a 2-0, if you're 2-0 down, winning 3-2 is a roar.

I don't think you couldn't win 2-1 from 1-0 and it'd be a roaring.

If it's only 1-0 you're coming back from, you've really then got to slap in some goals.

So you need two goals just to give yourself more of a runway to produce the roar, Dave.

Is that fair logic?

Yeah, exactly, yeah.

It's too close to be 1-0.

The more goals, the louder the roar, for sure.

Yeah, it was definitely roaring.

Yeah, if you, if you come back and win 5-2 from 2-0 down, that is a roaring back.

Absolutely a question.

Does it have to be at home, Charlie?

Well, how do you feel about that?

I do like that.

I know that, yeah,

that does sort of make some sense.

But I think

you could do it away, but I think you'd have to be the sort of favourites for the game in order to do it.

You know, you wouldn't talk about an unfancy team roaring back.

I think there'd be other things you'd be focusing on.

United at Spurs, right?

The 3-0 down at halftime.

Oh, I mean, that's roaring back in the second half.

It has the footballing elements of a roaring, but you need the atmosphere.

Like, what I'm picturing during mid-roaring, Dave, I'm picturing a player grabbing the ball out the back of the net and pumping up the crowd as they go round in at least 180-degree way.

And you can't do that away from home.

No, I don't think you can have an away roaring.

I think you can.

Fair enough.

Get in touch.

Figure it out for yourselves.

Right, next up, footballers' names in things.

It came from Christopher Francis.

And we were talking about this the other day, actually.

Sports, Strangest Crimes, The Real Story of Shergar the Super Horse, narrated by, of course, Vanilla Ice.

A group based in the U.S.

who claims to use extrasensory perception to locate missing or hidden objects and people.

That we sent some artifacts from Shergar, some things that Shergar had had, some of his tacks, some of the, yeah, they sent a saddlecloth, they sent a couple of

exercise boots that went around his ankles to keep him from hitting himself when he worked, And they sent lots of photographs and that sort of thing.

But he said he didn't really know much about it.

That he thought they worked for the government.

And I came across one reference that included the name of a gentleman named Stefan Schwartz as being the director of the Mobius group.

Imagine if Stefan Schwartz had been responsible for locating Shergar.

It would have bumped wanting to go to space down to number two in his things that people know about him.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Maybe that's where Shergar is.

Has anyone checked?

Stefan Schwartz, send him up to the moon.

Yeah, we're just playing for Sunderland in 2011-12, just going under the radar.

Streets won't forget Shergar.

Craig Eland gets in touch next in response to the revelation about schools issuing yellow cards to pupils, which I'd never heard of before last week's pod.

And he says, my daughter got a red card the other day.

After discussing it with her, it was clear she didn't deserve it.

Following an email to the school, we were notified that it was given to her in error and the card had been, and I quote, rescinded.

that's so good great language because it's the only language to use isn't it charlie yeah i wonder if if it was a bit there's the sort of mixed emotions when you get a rescindic it's kind of like well it doesn't really help us now does it like

missed half the lesson exactly yeah like great yeah thanks we went we went six hours with 29 pupils

do you think the um the parents really had to think long and hard about whether they appealed this one if it's too frivolous frivolous yeah but turns out it was a mistaken identity which is the which only reason red cards are going to get rescinded.

Oh, lovely stuff.

Right, let's end part one.

It came from via Franny Smith.

And Sky Sports claiming that Billy Sharp saw red for Rotherham just 53 seconds after coming on as a substitute against AFC Wimbledon this weekend.

Now, he got the clock on screen treatment, Charlie, so I was immediately invested to see what their methodology would be for this.

The clock began when he entered the pitch as a substitute.

I'm on the fence about that.

Play restarted 12 seconds after he entered the pitch with a throw-in.

The offense that he got a red card for was committed at 35 seconds.

But, and maybe the person who made this video has been listening closely to our scholarly approach to this, the clock stopped at the brandish zenith of the red card, 53 seconds.

So how do you feel about that in aggregate?

Yeah,

I think the other ways...

I can see why.

You know, you want it to be just when play restarts and when the offense is committed.

Like, that's the sort of...

I do really like that because that's...

That would be 23 seconds.

Yeah, that is the kind of technical, but I can see why you just need to do it sort of when they come on.

And

I think that's kind of accepted, isn't it?

He could punch someone as soon as he came on, Dave, couldn't he?

He could punch the linesman on his way on.

So you've got to start the clock there, haven't you?

Or is it be minus?

Well, you can get sent off before you come on the pitch, can't you?

Yeah, that's true.

But yeah, I'm really glad to see at least that they've gone with the red card reaching its highest point as the time the clock should stop because that's that's been decided by us.

Yeah, and I hope hopefully that is now held to by all the broadcasters and adjudicators going forward.

Lessons have been learned.

Right.

We'll be back very shortly.

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Oh, look at that.

That is wonderful.

Welcome back to Football Cliches, a reminder that you can get in touch at football cliches at gmail.com.

You can DM me on Twitter, Instagram, BlueSky, or get involved on our Reddit page, which has soared beyond the 28,000 mark.

Level pegging us, Dave, with such pages as Left-Handed, all things left-handed, I assume.

The Masters.

Okay.

Even after the weekend that the Masters had.

Do you check that today, have you?

Post-McElroy's heroics, okay.

Yeah.

So it's only going to go down for a while.

He'll be returning.

That'll be a good returning to the scene, won't it, next year?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Golf's good for returning to the scene, surely.

Anyway, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

Yeah, okay.

Sure.

Chili, specifically, welcome to the hotspot for all things chili.

Open brackets, the spicy stew.

I wonder if that had to be added.

People kept coming and getting like chili peppers and being like, or the country.

Yeah, this is really disappointing.

And Van Halen.

Also, breaking news, we're now on TikTok because it's 2025.

We're the last remaining podcast of any sort of stature to get ourselves on TikTok.

We had some deep strategising, Charlie, about what we wanted to be our first pod clip on there.

And I think we chose astutely, don't you?

Yeah, I think that's

a fitting start for us.

Yeah, a bit of retro Andy Townsend.

By the way, on Wednesday, we are recording our latest themed 11.

It's the Premier League Unfinished Business 11.

I'm really looking forward to this, Dave.

We are picking the players around continental Europe, perhaps even beyond, who we think are likely to have a second bite at the Premier League cherry, whether it's successful like Salah or or otherwise like many others but I think it's gonna be we're gonna have to be savvy about this one and pick the right players and also crucially we want to pick where they're likely to go for their second stab at things yeah I also think we're gonna need a a longer than usual managerial section for this one as well yeah this lends itself to managers quite well actually Charlie I think it's gonna be good yeah there's there are so many routes you can go down with this but fundamentally speculating where players may end up playing in the next three to five years is the essence of a football cliché's themed 11 and I can't wait to do it.

Get your nominations in immediately.

Crucially, we need to know where that player is going to go.

If the answer's West Ham every time, that's fine.

But we do need to know where they're going, who they are, and why they'll be coming back.

Right, part two begins with this, Nathan Shaw.

He says, my mum, a woman who has spent her life playing second fiddle to football thanks to my dad, her husband, thank you, good brackets there, and having three sons and a daughter, has no interest in the beautiful game and has absorbed next to nothing over the past 40 years.

Yet here she is in this screen grab you sent using a footballism in everyday life on Facebook celebrating the opening of a new restaurant in her locale.

She has commented, such an absolute addition for broken cross.

What an amazing turn of phrase for a non-football person to use, Charlie.

As an absolute addition.

What absolute addition that is.

Is addition enough of a superlative, Dave?

Yeah, I think it works.

It works very well, actually.

Absolute addition.

Here's a Lebanese restaurant, which I would say is a great addition to anything.

absolute addition.

Because you need the absolute even more.

There are some way you don't, the absolute is kind of superfluous because it's already a superlative.

Yeah, Lebanese.

What cuisine that is, by the way?

Who doesn't like Lebanese food?

Get in there.

Alex Taylor gets in touch very bravely next.

And his Facebook memories have popped up from 13 years ago with a Facebook status saying Gareth Barry with a great hashtag pre-assist.

So, so as of 13 years ago, he thinks he invented the concept, Dave, of a pre-assist.

I haven't had time to look into this to see whether Google has any, you know, earlier examples, but what a benchmark he's set.

Yeah, surely we need to get in touch with Opta.

Where they use pre-assists.

Yeah.

I wouldn't back them to be collating this data 13 years ago.

I don't even know if they do it now, do they?

Pre-assists?

It's not an Opta thing.

I remember Coxie doing a piece quite early on for the athletic.

And one of the things that came out, I maybe mismailed this, but Adam Webster at Brighton had quite a few pre-assists.

Breaking the lines.

So they must have been talking about, it must have been talked, I mean, that was only 2019, but I'm sure you could find it now.

And it must, yeah.

I mean, 2011 feels early.

I'm sure it would have been available to some extent.

Sort of fertile ground, though, I think, 2011.

It was the starting to,

you know, the tactico language, you know, something was bubbling away.

Tiki-tacker era.

Bit of pre-assisting going on, man.

You can imagine that he might have heard it somewhere or read it somewhere.

But fair play.

If he's, he's claiming it...

He didn't invent it, though, did he?

Come on.

Anyway, but if he did, brilliant, if so.

Here's a name that's never ever been mentioned on the Football Clichés podcast in 414 previous episodes.

It's Martin Samuel.

Now of the Times.

This is his weekend column and what a classic sidebar this is after taking care of the main course, the main issue in football, Charlie.

Dropping Bill Bow from the club's name was Hipster Gunk from TNT.

On Thursday night, as reports came in from the other Europa League matches, TNT Sports remained insistent that Rangers were playing a team called Athletic Club.

It was the height of hipster pretension.

I don't completely disagree with this.

I mean, I don't think it's worthy of putting in a column, but, you know, I mean, the athletic have to call them Athletic Club because that's what they are called.

But we also, as a English-slash-US-facing media outlet, every time we mention them for the first time, we have to stick in something called the Bilbao-based athletic club, which completely defeats the point.

It's a clumsy one.

And

as he goes on to say, you know, that there's lots of inconsistencies that we anglicize certain things, but not others.

Like, I get it.

It is

that there, yeah, the inconsistency is kind of just baked in.

We've talked about it before.

Yeah.

Whether it would sort of annoy me, I'm not sure.

There's some really interesting logic that Martin Salmu uses, Dave, for how we should be calling them athletic Bilbao in this country.

He says that in Spain,

the prefix athletic is very rare.

Like, it's an English word, so it stands out.

It is distinguishable as villa is to an English fan.

So I thought, okay, that's reasonable logic.

He says it's not true of athletic here.

Charlton, Oldham, Wigan.

So Bill Bau is our signifier.

And with the modern need for global branding, Bill Bau has now been added to the club's badge, too.

So it was hipster gunk from TNT to drop it.

Leaving out Bill Bauer wasn't about being accurate, but about being clever.

They know something you don't.

Not always showcased in the punditry, by the way.

Quite keysy, actually, at the end of the day.

Yeah.

Are we going to have a Martin Samuel corner from now on?

I think we need a few more from him to get for him to get corner status, don't we?

Yeah, I would say so.

I love the use of the word gunk.

It's a strange term, isn't it?

Hipster gunk.

Anyway, speaking of hipster gunk, it's time for Keys and Gray Corner.

Right, this is immense.

And it was, oh, it was manna from heaven.

I mean, you know, it's been sparse times for Keys and Grey Corner recently, Dave.

We haven't always been able to guarantee the delivery of one, have we?

No, no.

I think for various reasons, but there's been a lot less clips to work with, haven't there?

Yeah.

So, for some reason, and I am told by sources connected to be in who were speaking anonymously to protect relationships charlie that this came about because the usual production team who would have done keys and grey's saturday mega show where they cover all the games and everything super saturday that production effort was redirected to some paddle coverage in dubai so they had to slim things down so they did a live stream on youtube and twitter for the Middle East only of the whole show with them just sat around and it was really unplugged it was keys Gray, and of course, Jason McIntyre, who's, who's now, they're a trio now, by the way.

Like we have to start considering them as such.

But it was a two-hour live stream of them just chewing the fat about football with an occasional scoreline thrown in and it was gold.

And I'm so happy that we can delve into this.

Are you looking forward to it?

Oh my god.

I mean, this feels like sort of payback for the fact that it has been a lot slimmer pickings this season.

It feels like the gods saying, you know what?

Like we've been hard on you, but you've earned this.

Go on, just gorge yourselves on this.

I'm so looking forward to it.

It was like the podcast returned, the long lost, much loved Keys Away podcast.

It was back, the boys are back in town.

Right, um, I fired up NordVPN on a sunny Saturday afternoon, and here are my highlights.

It got off to a smooth start.

We'll know when we're on, now we're on, because it'll come up here.

We're on, are we?

Yes, we're live.

We're live.

Okay,

To who?

Everybody who's watching.

The world.

Yeah, I think it's probably.

Well, that's what the internet is.

Is that what the internet gives you, the world?

If there's anybody there.

Yeah.

I mean, Dave, in their defense,

this is the sort of kind of lax kind of approach you can get away with with a YouTube live stream.

You're allowed a little soft opening.

It's like the Libero podcast, isn't it?

It's just like, yeah,

just chill out.

It's fine.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, if it's going to be relaxed, be relaxed.

I think the tone has well and truly been set there.

I think I'd also, I can't stress how sort of horizontal Keesy is.

He is so casual.

His posture on the chair he's sitting on it, it's unbelievable.

He is just owning the space.

Yeah, no jackets, no ties.

We'll get onto the dress code in a minute.

But yeah, love that Andy Gray getting his head around the

function of the internet, which is just fantastic.

But Andy was under the illusion this might be going out to the entire world.

They might have to be careful what they say.

Keesy, Keesy put him right.

Here we are.

We'll show you goals as and when they're scored.

In our part of the world.

And so, no, the answer to your question, no, it doesn't go everywhere because it's geo-blogged.

Okay.

So it's for viewers in the Middle East and North Africa.

Excellent.

Until we go live.

Not if you've got naughty VPNs.

This reminds me as well, Andy Grey's having technological difficulties.

Do you remember when there was like a social media blackout a few years ago?

And he was just sort of earnestly asking Keesy if you could still message your loved ones.

Really worried about it to be like, Yes, yes, no, absolutely, you still can't.

It's this grey area, WhatsApp.

Is that a social media?

Um, just I didn't make clear.

So, their usual show is called Super Saturday, Dave.

Yeah, but for this kind of unplugged, kind of hair-down situation, for some reason, for no explanation offered, it was called Super Saturday XG.

Why?

I don't know.

I don't know.

That's great.

Right.

So the format of it, because it was broadcast, streamed live on YouTube, so people could send in comments and questions and they would read out a few.

So Keesy was getting his head around this aspect of it.

Scout Stave.

There's a reason why we call him Scout Stave.

Yeah, contract him out.

Scout Stave.

All right, son.

That's not working.

So the reason I'd like that tomorrow is because if you've got anything to say to us.

I'm waiting on you.

I'd like

if it's if it's going to be sensible, if it's the usual guff, not interesting.

But if you've got something to say to us as we go forward, please do, and we'll try and respond as we go.

No,

just on dress,

I would argue this.

I don't think

that old men wearing skinny jeans and white trainers has put on

one viewer for the host broadcaster in the UK.

Okay.

Not one.

Okay.

First dig at sky.

Brilliant views.

Yeah.

He claimed he was a real traditionalist about how you should dress as a pundit, Charlie, and if he's like, you should dress for the occasion appropriately in a jacket and tie when you're properly on air.

Guy, just imagine how many staff he sort of dug out for what they're wearing and that sort of thing.

Like thinking he, yeah, he's in control of that.

But Keesey has, with the more casual vibe of this broadcast, Keesy has abandoned the

suit jacket and tie that he would normally go with.

And he's just got his shirt on.

But he's got the sleeves rolled up.

He looks like a politician visiting a hospital.

Absolutely spot on.

How do I look relaxed?

I'll roll my sleeves up.

Yeah, so yeah, not a lot of usable comments.

I mean, maybe not enough people listening.

I think the peak number of people watching on YouTube while I was watching was about 130.

So I don't know what the audience really was.

But the main problem when it came to the comments was this.

All the comments are in Arabic.

Yes, speak in Arabic.

My Arabic, no, Shwe Shwe, I'm afraid.

Mafi, Mafia Arabia.

Very good.

This is our show, not yours.

Go on.

Thank you for asking.

By the way,

all my comments are in Arabic.

Google Translate.

There is one very persistent one who keeps saying speak in Arabic.

Habibi.

I'd like to.

I'd like to, but

we've got a broader English audience, so I think we should use

the English tongue today.

No, I was sitting at home this morning.

Oh my God.

There's a producer who's wandered in shot.

Obviously, not expecting to be on camera, I don't think.

Just wandered in, and he's trying to sort of look at the iPad and see if there's anything he can do.

And that sort of withering put-down from McAteer there.

Yeah.

This is ah, this is our show, not yours.

I mean, these are long-serving producers.

I know how he feels.

The first ever show I produced for Talksport was when I stood in for the breakfast producer when he was off one day and I produced breakfast and it was Anna Brazil and we had, I can't remember what the story was, it was something to do with Jack Wilshire.

There was some

Jack Wilshire was in the new night for some reason.

And we had Liam Brady on the show and Alan was going on about Arsenal, just going around the houses as he usually does.

And he wasn't asking him about Jack Wilshire.

And I kept on in his ear saying, Alan, can we get one on Jack Wheelshear, please?

I asked about two or three times.

And in the end, he did do it.

But, you know, I was inexperienced.

I was probably a little bit too trigger happy in the on the talk back but then he called me in in the break and he went it's the alan brazil sports breakfast short by the way

little did he know what you would go on to become um well yeah i mean i to tell you keesy keesy likes to be lord of the manor in this sort of thing even in this informal scenario so um the conversation is always going to turn back to what he wants to talk about

i interrupted you sorry you've forgotten what you were saying well well you just keep going off on tangents and you're that's the idea it's a chat chat room.

You're going to sit here, but you chat like I would if I was at the golf.

You never finish going where you're going.

Yes, I did.

No,

no, you don't.

Oh, my God.

This is amazing.

Do you know what, Charlie?

I reckon two hours of Keys and Gray at Doha Golf Club.

I don't think it would actually be that bad.

I think we'd get onto some decent footballing topics.

I think we'd be able to have a frank exchange of views about the state of English football.

That was a big moment, though.

That felt like the sort of in the office the Brent saying to Finchie, Chris, why don't you fuck off?

McAteer finally challenging Keesy on this he he definitely gives as good as he gets throughout all of this and which is why I think Dave he's cemented as part of the three now like he he's really found his role in that trio i think it is interesting seeing how how he perceives being relaxed and a bit more off the cuff is slightly different to the way keesy is treating it keesy keeps banging the drum on uh on punditry dress codes

no it was it was linked to dress sense so what it was was when you you you come up with the idea, because I do think you two are pioneers of how we watched.

So, do I, Gate?

Yeah, by the way, I'm not sure.

And I'd like to

give you that.

I'm not just saying it because I'm here with you.

But,

was it always suits back in the early days?

Yes.

Shirt and tie.

Whose idea was that?

Yours did not change.

It was just standard practice in those days.

You wouldn't do anything differently.

But we've moved on now, haven't we?

Well, I don't know if

you say moved on.

I think it's in dress sense.

But whether it's moved on is open to debate.

I would argue that that's not necessarily the case.

It's different.

I just said it.

He's done.

He's rattled.

He's rattled.

But you know what?

It's not all about being indignant about the modern way of doing things.

It's not all about the usual Keys and Grey stuff.

I am assured that Keys and Gray get into the same sort of granular conversations as we do on this podcast.

I'm told Portsmouth have just missed a penalty against Derby.

I'm going to wait for you to correct me.

I was saved.

Well, I don't know.

See, I think there's a difference.

And I've always said this.

I think if we talk...

For Keeper saves a penalty.

it's saved that's how we should describe it to save it keeper saved a pen because otherwise you undermine what he has contributed yeah

like the like the rangers

like the rangers goalkeeper on thursday night yeah saved the penalty yeah save so you have to say he's he's saved a pen

you know a miss is wide post bar for me

pretty easy threshold isn't it charlie yeah what's so good there is that it might of it might have been a miss that he doesn't yet know at that point but he's kind of just so keen to make that point He's like, I don't know.

Maybe it was, but it might not have been.

Further proof, Dave, that he'd be good on cliches.

Like, he'd be better than, say, Shreves.

Oh, yeah.

I think

I'm fairly certain he'd be better than Shrevesy.

Yeah.

What a low bar that's been said.

But yeah, speaking of granular analysis, Andy Gray dives into the data of Lester's home form.

How can you have eight consecutive home games?

You can.

And not score.

You can't.

It's impossible.

Lester.

Impossible.

Make it name.

But Leicester, I don't know they're away.

Oh, they're away, are they?

Oh.

That's it.

Fair play.

Right.

Really getting into our groove now.

Here is Richard Keyes on Eric Ten Hag's transfer policy at Manchester United.

Oh, yes.

Has anybody ever signed more Tosh than Ten Hag?

Ever.

Ever.

Ever.

It's the worst decision because you had a world-class goalkeeper.

Correct.

You You had one.

Why waste 50 million?

Waste 50 million.

Well, wasn't he looking for a new contractor here as well?

Wasn't he looking for around 350 million?

He deserved one.

He must have been there player of the year for the money.

But he couldn't play out from the back.

If a manager comes in and goes, I want a ball-playing goalkeeper.

Don't be so ridiculous.

That's what he's saying.

He couldn't play out from the back.

A goalkeeper's got to kick the ball from here to there.

I can do that.

Well, statistics.

What are they talking about?

Goalkeeper's primary job.

It's very simple.

This is what's wrong with the ball out from the game.

This is what's wrong with the game.

Oh, it's just protection.

It's like like AI had just come up with the quote for them.

I think there you can see Makatis slightly losing patience with it and just be like, oh,

I think he's nearly done at that point.

Yeah, you're right.

That is well detected.

But Dave, fortunately, there's some solid bread and butter banter to kind of smooth things over.

I swear they could do this in their sleep.

Here's one.

Question you two would like.

Go on.

We've asked.

Is this in Arabic or English?

No, no, it's in English, likely.

When will Manchester manchester united win the premier league again um

i'll make a prediction in our in our lifetime i won't be working

well you won't be working next year so

will you see it

then i'm bald that's bald

you've got to have the obligatory moment that that produces two rounds of cackles dave that is that is mandatory it's also quite quite rare that Gray decides to actually just remind Keysy.

You know, it's quite rare that he takes the opportunity to sort of just get one up on him.

Yeah, I agree.

I think he too often sort of can't be asked most of the time.

Well, if I'm not working, Andy, do you think you will be?

That's how I talk to you sometimes.

There is a great strand throughout this two-hour broadcast where Jason McAteer takes it upon himself to quiz Keys and Gray on who was in the launch photo for Skye's coverage of the Premier League back in in 1992, a representative from each of the Premier League teams as what.

So he just pops up every now and then with a new club and they have to guess.

And the deliberations are just so much fun.

I mean, it's so relatable in some way.

Oh my god, could we get them on for a quiz?

Three of them.

Just turning this show full circle, because I found it and I'm just going to throw it out every now and again.

Go on, go on your picture of 92 of the players, right?

I'll just throw it out every now and again.

I'll throw one out.

Who was in the picture the Liverpool representative in 1992?

Sammy Hippia.

1992.

Sammy didn't sign until 97,

9, 8.

92.

Who was in Liverpool?

Who would have been there then?

I'll give you a clue.

Was he McMahon?

No, he was the centre-half.

Fraser?

No.

Centre-half, big signing.

Sammy Huppier.

He was there in 97, 98.

Big signing.

Play for England.

Oh, Mark Wright.

Mark Wright.

Oh, yeah.

Great.

Mark Wright.

Yeah.

This is so representative of the entire quiz segment of this two-hour broadcast.

Basically, they keep deliberating for ages, throw in terrible names, and then when they finally either get the name right or they're told what the name is, Charlie, they'll back it up with a nickname.

You know, like when you're in the quiz, when you produce some extra information.

Oh, righty, yeah, righty.

Yeah.

Right.

Gray then going in for Sammy Hoopier is incredible.

Now, at this point, Richard Keyes is very invested in this quiz, Dave.

And yeah, yeah, there you are.

Here we go.

Right, I'll give you one more because we won't get through them all.

Who was?

Give us a couple.

Oh, okay.

Who was Manchester United's representative?

Robert.

Winger Young.

Giggsy.

No, the other one.

Sharpie Leeds.

Sharpie, yeah.

Who was?

Give me leads.

Ask me leads.

Who's Chelsea's?

Oh, Leeds.

Leeds and Chelsea's.

Give me leads.

Give me leads.

Give me leads.

Put a descalation in it, Charlie.

Just so good.

You know, we're about halfway through the clips here, Dave, and I'm really starting to wonder just how keysy I'm becoming.

Just like generally.

It's really bad.

Same instincts, but you know, I don't know.

When you run the show, that's what happens, I guess.

Right,

next up, this chat is punctuated by the producer politely urging them to stop the niche quizzing and read out some questions from the viewers.

Tottenham.

Oh.

On YouTube.

I'm still in Arabic, Steve.

I ain't getting it.

Tottenham.

Tottenham.

Tottenham.

So you can read them out.

These two here.

We think Richard Keyes is a legend.

No, no, they don't say that.

No, they don't say that.

Main certainly doesn't say that.

Maine doesn't say that.

Absolutely.

Standard issue banter.

I mean, it couldn't be better.

Is this the same Steve, by the way?

You know, the behind the scenes video and say, have you seen Steve?

And they march into the office of a producer.

Yeah,

I recognise the guy, absolutely.

It's the same old blokes who've been suffering these guys for decades now.

It's not like they were running out of material or anything, but conversation did turn to Graham Sunis was a hard bloke.

If you could put two midfielders together from any generations to see that they

see who comes out on top, which two midfielders would it be?

Would it be Graham and Roy Keene?

Graham Vieira.

Graham would have chewed Keeno up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Graham would have chewed him up.

I'd agree with that.

Vieira?

That would be good, but I think Graham would.

It's the cornerstone of every Keys and Great broadcast.

Graham Sines was hard as nails.

I like the fact that they've inadvertently created a player called Graham Vieira.

If his name was Graham Graham Vieira.

He'd have everything.

Right.

So,

but yeah, speaking of big blokes, all roads in 2025 still lead to big Sam.

Why did Southampton and Leicester not recruit English managers?

Well, if I had appointed Sam Allardyce, they'd have more points now than they've ever had.

There's no reason why they shouldn't.

Why?

You want to survive in the English Premier League?

I don't necessarily agree with Sam.

Why not?

Whoa, sorry.

Do you think Sam would have kept Southampton?

I think Sam would have written as well as Durich or Fannisto Royale.

No, I'm not saying he's done, and we'll never know because it's hindsight, but I

am

mean,

just no.

Yes.

But if you come in and do a job, 100%.

You can't keep coming in and doing a job.

Yes, you can if that's what you're doing.

But you can't pluck Ivan Durich out of the ether.

Sam would have Sam would have gotten it.

You could save Southampton.

I think that was really poor recruitment, I did.

It's so good.

On one hand, Charlie claiming that Sam Allardyce blindly would have just kept Southampton up.

And on the other, just claiming that they picked Ivan Durich out of the ether.

also.

Gray's like genuine shock.

It's quite endearing.

He's like, then Big Sam.

Like, he genuinely can't believe that McAteer like wouldn't, as if it's sort of

sacrilege to say this about him.

It's one of those incontrovertible truths, Dave.

You know, it's up there with

Peter Check is worth 12 points a season.

Big Sam, if you get him in, will rescue you.

That's what he does.

I mean, you're not allowed to argue against it because what can you do?

Even though the last time he was brought in to rescue someone,

they went down and leads.

Exactly.

And it's exactly.

Right.

Last bit of gold, really.

Just an incredible conversational dynamic here.

You really could not recreate it anywhere else.

Not on CBS, not on Sky Sports, not even on Monday night football.

Nothing.

Nothing comes close to this.

Chemistry.

They don't get a chance, in my view.

Eddie, how?

Don't get a chance.

When?

I agree with you.

They don't get a chance.

They don't get a chance.

I'll tell you what, there's a very good coach operating in the championship.

Still?

I think he's still he's in France?

Is he in France?

He's enormously underrated and he's done a fantastic job.

Will Still.

What's your own coach?

Frank.

Frank Rampart.

Yeah.

Will still.

Is it Will Still?

I do think that.

I think he's done a fantastic job.

I think Will's still in France.

Might as well not be in the room.

You're just having two complete

conversations.

I mean, I think he still was good enough.

Like, who in the world doesn't know Will Still's first name?

This is like when I watch my four-year-old son, and he has a friend around, and they're just having completely like one saying one thing, the other's just having concurrent conversations.

They're in the same room, but they might as well not be.

I mean, he's just completely ignoring him.

It's incredible.

There were at least two more mentions of Will Still than should have happened there, Dave.

And Richard Keys has a filter, and

he won't close that filter until he's ready.

And yeah,

hopefully, this isn't a one-off experiment, but yeah, the lads, it feels like they'd enjoyed it and thought it was a success.

Right, we are wrapping that up, Keesey.

Yeah, we've enjoyed that.

It's been fun.

I hope you have.

Really good.

Different.

Very different.

If there's been nobody there, then

I would have been sitting here doing the same thing anyway.

We'll do this again.

I wish I could understand.

We'll be back to normal now.

I wish I could read Arabic because there's so much here.

It's all very complimentary.

Is it?

Thank you, Richard.

Keys is a legend, I keep reading.

No, no, that's not what I'm reading.

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And there we are.

Thanks to you, Charlie Okashefa, for surviving that with me.

Thank you.

Thanks to you, Dave Walker.

Thank you.

Producer doing producer things.

Great stuff.

Thanks to everyone for listening.

We'll be back on Thursday with the Premier League Unfinished Business 11.

See you then.