Playing for your dad's team & mercifully short injury time: The listeners' loves & hates

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I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like.

Is Gas going to have a crack?

He is, you know.

Oh, I see!

Brilliant!

But geez!

He's round round the goalkeeper!

He's done it!

Absolutely incredible!

He launched himself six feet into the crowd, and Kung Fu kicked a supporter who was eyewit without a shadow of a doubt getting him lip.

Oh, I say,

it's amazing!

He does it tame and tame and tame again.

Break up the music!

Charge a glass!

This nation is going to dance all night.

Sean Deish officially joins the rogues gallery of ex-pro football podcasters.

A Carabao Cup commentator sees the stars align at Wigan, the built-in authority of the come short hand gesture, managers shamelessly signing their almost identically named sons to flounce around in the reserves until their dad gets sacked, striped shirt illegibility woes, and referees allocating a merciful amount of end-of-thrashing injury time.

Brought to your ears by Goal Hanger Podcasts.

This is Football Clichés and you're Mesa Harlan Dix.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Football Cliches.

I'm Adam Hurry, and joining me to go through your footballing fascinations and irritations.

Charlie Eccleshaw, first of all, how are you doing?

Very well, thank you.

Charlie, this is the 26th time we've allowed the listeners to air their sordid footballing fetishes and petty grievances about the beautiful game.

What have we learned, do you think, broadly?

Um, that there's a lot of neuroses amongst our listeners, a lot of anxiety, but that a lot of them really, really get the pod, which is yeah, only a small sprinkling of tribalism.

Mostly it's just irritation and paranoia while watching football, I think, is uh, which is something I think we should all tap into at various points.

Alongside you is David Walker.

Dave, it's the Newcastle Clichés quiz live tonight.

Are you excited?

I am.

I think it's a great quiz.

Yeah, I'm very excited to be up in the northeast.

Let's see if quizzing is a religion for them up there, shall we?

They love their question nines up there, who knows?

On a similar note, clichés live in 2025.

Well, we're mere days away now as we go to Brighton, London, Birmingham, Dublin, Manchester, Leeds and Glasgow sold out.

Dave, I'm fascinated/slash/concerned about the podcast recording logistics of this tour because we're going to be unrelentingly twice weekly on this podcast throughout October and delivering our Dreamland episodes as well.

So, the big question is: can you make a football podcast on a train?

Certainly edit one on a train.

We, yeah, we probably do need to think a little bit more about how we're going to manage this, but we'll be fine.

We've never not delivered

to a week when we have,

so it's fine.

We have some great conversations on the train, Charlie.

Some of the best conversations we ever have actually are on trains up to kind of you Manchesters of this world.

Yeah, maybe we should do an episode in the kind of when we're all a bit nervous before going on, and sometimes that leads to a kind of hyperactive state that's that's actually very creative.

Charlie, just constantly going, Why

should we record that?

On the live tour, by the way, so we've we've we've something of a mini milestone for us this week.

We've updated the tour poster with official low-ticket signs next to Brighton, London, Dublin, and Manchester.

Lees and Glasgow sold out.

Birmingham, the low ticket, conspicuous by its absence.

We've not sold terribly in Birmingham, a healthy amount, but it's lagging behind the others.

And so, this is my call to the people of Birmingham and the surrounding areas to pull your fingers out.

You're the second city, lads.

Come on.

What is the excuse?

I don't understand it.

How can you possibly like the podcast slightly less in Birmingham than anywhere else?

I mean, that's the only conclusion I draw from.

We had a great show last time.

We had a great night in the pub as well afterwards.

It was a Friday, wasn't it?

So maybe that helped.

But yeah, come on, lads.

Fascinated, Charlie, by what the threshold is for low tickets to be able to put that on your poster.

I won't ask the promoters for the details of that, but good to be able to put it on.

Yeah, go to tickets.football clichés.com if you want to join us throughout October.

Right, before we get sucked into the main event, a little adjudication panel for you.

Had to start with this.

Barely a month month ago, David Walker.

Don't make Dice do this.

Daishy, don't embrace it either.

There should be an agreement.

Just leave it behind now.

Utter woke nonsense has run its course.

I think we can all agree.

Does he?

Does he enjoy it?

Seemingly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's definitely not beyond the realms of possibility for him to have a podcast called Utter Woke Nonsense in three years' time or something.

Yeah.

If this next job goes badly.

So you're about 35 months out.

Yeah.

wow.

Life comes at you fast.

Yes, indeed.

Talksport have announced that they have launched a podcast called Utter Nonsense, Charlie, featuring Sean Deish himself.

The first port of call here is obviously they've had to play around with the name there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What's the thinking there, game?

I mean, the woke is kind of key.

Politicise it game.

Yeah, is that deemed too political, I guess?

I assume so.

Yeah, so they've had to sanitise the name a bit, Dave.

I mean, now just they've got a podcast called Utter Nonsense.

It could be anything.

Yeah, I'm intrigued to see which sort of direction they take this in.

Is it going to be about football?

Is it Daishi's take on football?

Is it sort of Sean Deish's view of the world in general?

That might give it more longevity, Charlie, if they sort of mushroom it out into Sean Deich on life, you know, the world according to.

Daish on Brexit.

Yeah, you'd imagine it would start with football and then expand, as we hope to one day.

Well, maybe.

Dave, honestly, is there a world

in which this could be better than three out of ten broadcasting?

I mean, I think it could be better than three out of ten.

Right.

Yeah.

It should aspire to be.

But

is it going to be troubling your eights, your nines, your tens?

We'll see.

What is a 10 out of 10 podcast?

Who knows?

Tuesday's one was, that's for sure.

Bloody brilliant it was.

Charlie, though, when it comes to X-Pro podcasts, are we in a kind of shoestring taggot spender Bergerac Morse?

What does that say to you about Regional Detective Series sort of situation now?

Because there are buckloads.

Yeah, I mean, I think, like I said, I think it was last week, it does feel like it's the sort of blooper DVD thing.

It's just

everyone is having a go.

Everyone's having a crack.

And yeah, I don't really know where it ends.

I mean, I guess everyone, the more people do it, the more others are going to think, well, if he's doing it, I could do it.

That's probably with the stage we're at now.

A whole generation of players and managers going, well, he's got one.

Can you get me one?

Speaking to their agents, can you get me a podcast?

I'll quite up for it.

I am sort of fascinated to note, like, how much, I mean, people, and I know anecdotally people do, but how much podcasting you've got to be listening to to kind of justify the existence of all of these.

I mean, it's hours and hours of people's lives.

Yeah.

And sort of finding the time to do that, I'm sort of, I'm intrigued by it.

Two commutes a day, a lunch hour.

Maybe your job requires you not to have to listen to any other human beings until you could, you could squeeze in another four.

I don't know.

I suppose.

What a life.

Hugh Davis has done the research on this particular sub-genre, Dave, and he says, as of September 2025, in no particular order, here are the X-Pro football podcasts.

Under the Kosh, The Good, The Bad, and the Football, The Managers, Utter Nonsense, No Tippy Tappy Football, The Rest is Football, The Rest is Football Daily Brightness, Stick to Football, The Wayne Rooney Show, The Gary Neville Podcast, Rio Ferdinand Presents, That Peter Crouch podcast, The Two Robbies, Seaman Says, Wrighty's House, The Obi Wan podcast, The Magic Sponge, and FC Bullard, Dion's Gaffer Tapes, The Robbie Fowler podcast, Beast Mode On, Long Story Short with Jill Scott and Karen Carney, Crossways, Pitched Pod with Jordan Nikita, Whistleblowers, It's Called Soccer, Life with Brian, The Brian McLare podcast, Wild Cards with Jermaine Genius and Jermaine Pennant, 21 Minutes to Go, Fozcast, The Goalkeepers Union, Yours, Mine Away, The Footballers Football Podcast, My Makes a Footballer, It's All Kicking Off, The Recharge, Common Sense with Joey Barton, Sy Ferry Meets, The Longman's Football World Podcast with Owen Tudor Jones, and Sacks in the Morning.

Wow.

I think a couple of of those have since passed into the podcast graveyard.

But fuck me, yeah, there are a lot of them for sure.

I think, you know what, Charlie, you're saying, where did it all end?

I think at some point, although this has nearly happened a few times, I know there was the Michel Antonio and Callum Wilson had a pod, and like Tom Kearney got involved in that one, and Patrick Bamford had one.

So they're current players.

But I do think at some point, a proper big-name Premier League player will start something on their own.

I think that's that's active.

Yeah, I think that's the next frontier for us over here.

It happens all the time in American sports.

Different culture, sure.

But I think at some point somebody will have a go.

Yeah, the problem with that is that obviously the clubs are so wary of what players say.

And the nature of podcasts is that they are, you know, not that they would care necessarily, but if it wants to be any good, it needs to be like reasonably discursive and revealing.

And so I just, I think for any high-profile player, or certainly for a high-profile club, I think that would get nixed quite quickly if it was in any way interesting.

Might see a new era where podcast clauses are inserted into contracts.

Yeah, maybe that will give it a new lease of life.

Who knows?

Next up, this came from Last One to Arrive: the Carabao Cup, the 93rd minute of Wickham's 2-0 win at Wigan to secure safe passage into round four.

And commentator Will Robinson is running out of time to deploy this line about the Lattics goalkeeper Sam Tickle.

Very unselfish

playthrough by Lowry

Trying to swear it to a teammate rather than test tickle.

93 minutes.

He wanted to do it, Dave.

I mean, how

express as a percentage how sure you are that that was deliberate.

I'm at about 78, 80.

I think the fact that it was in the 93rd minute as well, he's thought, right, okay, this is it.

I'm going to do it.

I'm going to do it.

I've been waiting for a chance all game.

The only thing that casts a slight bit of doubt for me, Charlie, is that that's a perfectly plausible phrase to use, no matter what the goalkeeper's name was.

Yeah, I was going to say, like, there is plausible deniability there.

Yeah.

So, yeah, tricky one.

I'm going to do it.

It'll go under the radars.

The Carabao Cup, Wickham versus Wiccan.

It'll be alright.

Must be single figures, audience.

Must be on digital levels.

Duncan Alexander, I imagine.

Yeah, true.

Yeah, there you go.

Right.

Daniel Vickers is next.

He has the last word on UK postcodes that are the furthest distance from the home stadium of players with the matching initials and shirt number.

He's gone.

He's thought outside the box here, Dave.

He says, Hamilton Bermuda has the postal code HM and there is an HM5.

I think this means Harry Maguire trumps everyone in terms of the distance from his initials and shirt number to his home ground.

He's gone for a British overseas territory.

Wow.

Yeah, that's great.

Well done.

Yeah, can't fault the logic there, Charlie.

So surely the winner here, unless someone's got Tristan di Cunha or something like that.

Well, yeah, I mean, who knows?

I feel like someone is going to see that and raise it somehow.

Yeah.

Really thought we'd left the topic behind, but it just keeps rearing its ugly head.

Do they have postcodes in the Arctic Circle or up there?

Not a British territory, though, is it?

Don't think we can claim that one.

The Empire's back.

Can we have all this?

Is that alright?

Anyway, this episode is brought to you in association with NordVPN.

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And on that note, here is Tony Pulis on the Managers podcast on Peter Crouch's impact at Stoke.

He's a fabulous person as well, Mick.

Absolutely, you know, top.

He brought it up another level.

And not just on the pitch, but off the pitch as well.

Because the players gyrated around him.

What an image.

Because I suppose he is pole-shaped, isn't he?

So, yeah.

Yeah.

Do you mean that's unconsciously influenced by all the kind of crouch dancing and robot and being so synonymous with all of that?

Where is he going for?

Joe Rate's great, but

is it gravitated?

Is it gravitated towards it?

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, dear.

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We'll be back very shortly.

Welcome back to Football Cliches.

This is the listeners, Mezza Harlan Dix.

Time for your fascinations first.

We'll kick things off with Martin Hudson.

There's a footballing gesture I'm obsessed with.

It's that classic come short signal.

You know, elbow tucked in, forearm out, palm up, fingers curling towards the ribs in short, purposeful thrusts.

Think of the coin slot mechanism on a pub pool table when you press it in.

It's got that same satisfying action.

And it's very British too.

I think I've only ever seen British players do it.

And British coaches, especially, at any level, you know, it screams, track suits and whistle.

And I like to perform it myself.

It's a sign that you have pedigree.

You know, it's not a movement a bad player even has in their armoury.

It shows assertion.

It carries grassroots authority.

I'm sure it was Shankley who said he could spot a player by the way they walked.

And likewise, if I see a player perform that come short signal at my sort of level, you know, Sunday League.

I'm automatically starting them in my 11.

Charlie, I love this.

I do think that the come short hand signal is the the crown jewel of universal footballing hand gestures from Sunday League all the way to the very top.

And what Martin gets spot on here is that, yes, it's quite an accessible thing.

It's quite an obvious concept.

You know, come closer so you can get the ball.

But also,

there is a hint of pedigree about it.

It does hint towards some sort of footballing kind of experience, some gravitas.

Yeah, I'm trying to think.

I mean, like a Stephen Gerrard or someone at top level, I can kind of picture doing that.

I mean, and is the thought that it, because it shows like a level of taking control and leadership, the fact that you're sort of directing proceedings, you're not just focusing on yourself, you sort of, you're thinking one step ahead.

Exactly.

It does, it does say that, but really subtly, Dave, it's not an overt kind of display of telling everybody what to do.

It's just knowing ball, basically.

It's just like, yeah, I'm in charge here, but in a really subtle way.

And having the confidence to say, look, look, we can do that.

Yeah, come on, come short, get the ball in that area.

But I do wonder whether, is this perhaps dying out of the top level now?

Because it's so standard for the teams to be set up to play short.

Whereas before, it would have been a sort of thing of like, no, I'm not going long.

Come short.

I would also say that players don't get enough time on the ball, Charlie, to be able to just do that mid-game.

You see it a lot in the 70s and 80s.

You watch matches back and like players have the time and the luxury to be able to basically orchestrate play with their hands.

You can't do that in 2025.

You can if

you're playing a team that kind of sits off and you're the deep-lying six.

Like I can I can imagine a Rodri or someone because

I'm not sure how much teams would press him just because they're so generally off or often teams are so deep against Man City anyway.

Like I think there are a select few who would have it.

Because if you're that guy as well who kind of drops in between the centre-backs to receive the ball, I think that part of the vibe of that kind of player is to be, you know, telling people where to go, moving them around.

Like you're so in control of the game if you're playing in that kind of position.

It's mad that at the elite level, Dave, that players even need that kind of very obvious encouragement to go and do that fairly obvious thing, which is to go short and get the ball.

I'm quite comforted that it still pops up every now and then at the top level.

Yeah, I was at Millwall on Monday night watching Watford slump to a 1-0 defeat.

And it wasn't a come-short thing, but

on a similar note, there was a moment in the first half where I noticed two of our players sort of remonstrating with each other.

The ball went out of play, and then it was Hector Hector Kiprianu, who sort of went up to one of our other players, and I could see him talking about another player to one of the other players.

And it looks really Sunday league to me.

It's like, you are playing in the championship, and you're like, clearly, someone's not doing something here.

And you're sort of trying to tell the captain to sort him out.

And when you see those moments of anything less than well-oiled tactical machines at the top level, it is a bit comforting, I think.

The scenario I had in mind when when Martin Hutter was explaining this, Charlie, was a throw-in, where you have a bit more time to kind of figure out where to go.

But there's really only two things you can say at a throw-in: go long or come short.

And

those seem just a little bit too elementary, don't they?

Even though something's like, come on, figure it out.

Yeah, I don't think that, yeah, that's not as impressive.

Right.

And also, yeah, because like you say, you're not multitasking in quite the same way.

Okay.

You sort of you almost expect that, don't you, from a certain amateur level, a thrower to be kind of, yeah, dictating proceedings to an extent, telling people to move away so he can launch it.

This is so vivid to me now, Dave.

I mean, I reckon I'd still put sort of pull it out at five-aside every now and then, the sort of you know, come and get it gesture.

And yeah, it does make you feel like you're in charge, but in a really like in a kind of deputy head kind of way, nothing too obvious.

I really like it.

Yeah, when playing five-aside, it's more about me receiving the ball, though, I think, rather than me asking for players to come and get it short.

So,

either if I'm playing sort of more as a striker or up front, I get annoyed sometimes when goalkeepers or players don't pass it into your feet because they think, oh, you're marked.

You're like, this is fine.

The bloke's behind me.

He's not going to get the ball.

And it's to persuade your teammates to trust you with the ball sometimes, right?

Exactly.

And then equally, sometimes if you're sort of stand,

you've gone short and the goalkeeper's just, you know, throwing it out to the wing.

Come here.

Just, I'm here.

Just come short.

Charlie, in my five-aside pomp, I had this essentially a signature signature move that I had.

If I was playing up front and the goalkeeper had it in their hands, I would make a run to the right.

The one defender would go with me.

But

because I was sort of in front of him, I would gesture, really suddenly to the goalkeeper, to actually throw it the other way as he threw it.

And then I would sprint off, and it would get me such a head start.

And then you could hit it first time on the turn.

It's brilliant.

Works.

It works at least three times.

Right, yeah, yeah.

Sorry, to your own keeper.

I thought you meant for a second you were sort of tricking the opposition keeper.

This is a level of deception.

3D chess.

Why are they falling for it?

But yeah.

Second time you said 3D chess, it's 4D chess.

Sorry.

Is that me?

Was that me last time?

Yeah, shit, man.

I don't like chess at all.

I don't even know what D it is.

Anyway, thanks to Martin Hutzer for kicking us off.

Fascination number two comes from Christopher Peacock.

My niche love of football is when managers sign their own son.

Now, it doesn't sound that niche on the surface, but I thought this was an art that was dying out.

Until recently, I saw that Richie Wellens, manager of Leighton Orient, had his son Charlie Wellens playing for them, and he scored the winner in a game recently.

And I thought, maybe it's back because I also read about Mickey Mellon signing his son Michael Mellon.

Wonderful.

Got me thinking back to the halcyon days of Tony Pulis signing his son Anthony Pulis, who to my mind never played for anyone else other than Plymouth or Stoke.

But you do occasionally get ones where you think maybe they were okay.

Steve Bruce signing Alex Bruce, for example.

But I just think it's a wonderful, wonderful act of nepotism that for some reason we've never questioned, but it's just glorious.

And I feel we're back.

I feel it's back.

And you know, I look forward to what others think.

And are there any others I've missed off?

I've just thought of Lou Macari signing both his sons, who were both equally awful.

One of them was called Paul.

But yeah, any others out there, but I just love it.

Dave, this is another example of something that appears to be fairly timeless.

Like, I'm stunned that it's still going on in 2025, you know, you know, in the hyper-organized professional game.

But also, it's

quite a universal concept as well.

Like, it will happen in Sunday league, you know, all the way down to under-12s.

Like, my brother has to manage his own son.

And you can see there's a slight tension there because he'll get back chat that no other players will give him.

And then just so from there, all the way up to the top level, Dave, I just think it's genuinely pathetic.

Signing your own son is pathetic.

Can we think of any examples of where the son has been genuinely worth their place and like had a properly good career?

Simeone's son?

Yeah, Simeone now, Conseil Sal, of course.

Daly Blind and Danny Blind.

Yeah, okay.

So there are a few.

Paolo Maldini and Cesare for the

national team.

Charlie, we should factor in that the offspring of elite professionals have a head start when it comes to football development.

So so we should factor this so it's not a massive surprise that the the occasional one sort of you know warrants their place but there are so many examples of some genuinely tenuous existences players who never even come close to a first team appearance and you just think how does that work both in terms of the negotiations to sign them which presumably happens when the manager arrives, and also just the ongoing relations with other squad members.

It's like, how can that happen

in the top three divisions of any league?

This is a really good choice because it's

so relatable, and I'm sure everyone can remember the first time they kind of became aware of this.

Like, I remember as a, you know, there was like Colin Todd and Andy Todd, and you'd sort of, and you would be really interested because you'd have all these questions: like, how did that come about?

How do the other players feel?

How does he, what happens when he has to drop him, or how does it impact his selection?

I do think that kind of Nepo babies in football terms, that their cause has been really helped by that famous Lampard redknapp, because

he's going right to the top, genuinely, because I think that

one example really sort of, because it so contradicts the idea that he's there just because of his dad and his uncle and all of that, because he was so good.

I think people, consciously or otherwise, are a bit like, oh, maybe I should hold my tongue just a little bit if I'm going to just call this out as pure nepotism.

Yeah, this is a good point, Dave.

Sometimes the accusation is so obvious that it becomes too obvious, and

an angry denial just tends to get rid of it.

I mean, I've seen an interview about this so many times over the years where it will be the manager being interviewed about having his son in the squad and he says, look, if anything, I'm harder on him.

Exactly.

If anything, I'm harder on him.

I'll give him more.

I'll give him more than the rest of the lads.

So it's harder for him, if anything.

I mean, I think that's natural as well.

I think

you would be conscious of it if you were the father.

Yeah.

For sure.

But there is just that inescapable sense of that they do have, they probably do, certainly initially anyway, like they do have to justify their place perhaps in a different way.

It seems mad to me, this is slightly before my time, but it seems mad to me to think that Darren Ferguson played for Manchester United in the Premier League title-winning team.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, again, you're not going to mess with Ferguson in that situation, Charlie.

But it seems to me, what's emerging here is that there are various subtypes of this.

There are the quite obviously signed as a favour, just to, you know, keep them out of trouble.

You know, they play in the reserves for ages.

And there are examples that we've had of players who are very, very good and warrant their place.

And it's almost incidental that they're the manager's son.

And then you've got the middly ones like the Andy Todds of this world where you just think they may not be good enough to play for their dad in this team, but they're quite useful as a kind of trusted lieutenant.

They will be deployed as the kind of manager's attack dog.

A bit like Alex Bruce and Steve Bruce, maybe.

Yeah, because just a good player, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Perfectly solid pro.

I do also think there is a difference when they've because a lot of the time they've just sort of started out at the club because their manager, their dad is the manager.

To sign them, I think that would be even more...

That must be even more weird in some ways and raise more eyebrows.

Because if they're just part of the academy and they've come through or whatever, that's one thing.

To go out and buy them, I imagine there are a lot of people being like, hmm, well, that's what a coincidence.

You've signed your son.

There's probably quite a lot of pressure on the coaches in the academy as well to keep them in.

Even like like

subconsciously of like, oh God, we can't get rid of him.

Imagine letting go like 12-year-old son of a manager or something.

Yeah, what an awkward conversation it must be when they finally get released.

Peter Shilton signed his own son Sam for Plymouth.

And by an account that I can't remember where it came from, a Plymouth fan just said he was utterly rubbish.

And then somehow signed for Coventry.

Like he just wasn't good enough.

So there must be really glaring instances of this.

I remember, and I think, Dave, you're remembering, because I seem to remember, we went to Watford, but Pochattino's son, also called Maurizio Pochetto, but with a different spelling, which is also

MHD fancy.

Anthony Pulis and Maurizio Pochettino.

What's going on?

The arrogance of this.

But that's like, calling your son the same name is one thing.

To call him the same name, but give it a different spelling is...

I'd love to ask Poch about that sometime.

But yeah, anyway, he was sort of knocking around the academy, but it was, and I remember seeing him actually once playing in a youth team game where I think he scored, but it was clear he wasn't really going to make it and you'd imagine everyone would have known and what was particularly awkward was that Poch the manager Maurizio Sr.

got sacked but Maurizio his son stuck around for a little bit

he was still there for like the rest of that season can't be nephews of if you're still there exactly and everybody's like is is Maurizio senior going to come and watch him at youth team games and things like that like we we had a little spell where we had the son of Pochatino, we had Dennis Burkamp's son, we've now got Andrei Chevshenko's son in the academy, so we've been hoovering them up.

Just a little bit.

Just in case.

Why not take the punt?

Just in case.

He's very, very football manager, as well, isn't it?

You just see them, you think, oh, that's quite fun, isn't it?

I'll sign Dennis Burkamp's son as a 16-year-old.

He might be irresistible.

He must be irresistible to do it.

Just, you never know, basically.

And they always turn out to be shit.

Always.

Have you seen the most recent sort of adjacent example of this?

Is that Ashley Young's son, who nearly played against him last season in the FA Cup when Young Tyler was playing for Peterbury and Ashley was

the whole thing, wasn't it?

Everton.

Yeah.

So Ashley Young signs for Ipswich this summer and lo and behold, Tyler Young, who had made one appearance for Peterborough in a cup competition, then signs for promotion chasing Ipswich Town all of a sudden.

You think

for God's sake.

A favour, probably.

Side game signed a King's Lynn or something like that.

Just like, just temper it a bit, for God's sake.

What money is he on?

Like, how do you negotiate that?

What's he worth?

I'm baffled.

But it must be a bit weird for him as well, for the son to be sort of in training with his dad.

It's different.

They're actually teammates.

It's not like manager and player.

God, maybe it wasn't.

Yeah, that is really odd.

Yeah, that's weird.

And it'd be like, you know, remember, I mean, obviously, this, what you're saying, Dave, that's a more extreme example.

But this broader phenomenon is like, do you remember at school, occasionally there'd be like a teacher's child would be at the school.

And again, you'd always be really, I'd always wonder, like, do they say hi to each other?

Do they they like come in together?

Like, what's,

how does this work?

Like, how much, and how much are you bothered by it?

Especially, like, fine if your dad, if your parents are like a popular teacher, but what if they're not?

That must be rubbish.

Oh, yeah, in the top set, are we?

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

My mum was a teacher at the primary school I went to, and she had to keep moving up a year to stop so she didn't have to teach me.

It's like, it's like a B team not

allowed to be promoted.

What, and then left the school when you got to year six.

Oh, dear.

Actually,

this reminds me, famous sort of managers who have very similar sounding named offspring.

There is this story going around that Emilyn Hughes' son is called Emilyn Hughes and that his daughter is called Emmelin Hughes.

I only recently discovered that that second bit is complete urban myth.

She's not called Emma Lynn Hughes.

That must really annoy her all these years.

She's not called Emmalyn Hughes.

So there you go.

I mean that would have been just astonishing self-worth, but there you go.

Christopher Peacock, what a can of worms you opened there.

Finally, for our fascinations this month, this comes from Alastair Norman.

My fascination of football is what I like to call the Jeff Stelling fake out, where he would make you believe one thing was about to happen and then switch it up at the end in his inimitable voice.

But I'll give it a try.

But he says something along the lines of, Bolton Wanderers haven't conceded a goal in eight games.

Well, they have now, Dave Racegirdle.

Or something like, Manchester City, you've been knocking at the door all game, so you know what's happened.

Charlie Nicholas.

first of all Dave that is an eight out of ten absolutely eight and a half out of ten Jeff Selling impression I'm really impressed yeah and Dave Bracegirdle as well the perfect choice

the little growl in there Charlie was good wasn't it yeah yeah really good yeah don't I always pronounce Dave Bracegirdle wrong somehow so how are you pronouncing it I think I put the emphasis on the brace the girdle

brace girdle brace brace girdle Dave Bracegirdle all right that would be good an amazing name and yeah lovely to have him mentioned again This is long admired, this device, Charlie, and naturally it's always been pinned to Stelling himself as one of his characteristics.

But if you look at it on face value as a kind of score program

sort of method of delivering an update, it's really effective.

Like it's entertaining, but like it has the right amount of suspense in it.

I don't think it's too mischievous.

I think I've always admired him for this one.

Yeah, and just as a reminder of how another world that feels, imagine actually finding out like a goal, a really important goal update from Jeff Stelling kind of playfully telling you.

Like, it's really nice.

There's something really nice and at least communal about that rather than it just being like an anxious check of the phone or a goal of that or something.

I suppose the only drawback to it, Dave, is that if you've watched Soccer Saturday for, I don't know, at least five years.

with Stelling at the helm, after a while you knew it was going to happen.

It kind of

began to eat itself, didn't it?

A little bit, yeah.

But it's done with enough mirth that it's all part of

the show.

It's part of his thing.

And, you know, in his pomp, that was definitely part of the appeal of it.

Was Stelling, because there are a lot of people that do round-the-ground shows,

you know, on radio.

And, you know, we've had your final score, you had the BT one and stuff.

But Stelling definitely brought something different to it than all the others, I think, for sure.

So do other presenters still deploy it?

Are they allowed?

Like, I don't think I've ever heard Simon Thomas does it, does he?

I don't know.

In their own way, I think.

Okay.

Now I think about it, Charlie, when you think about the really sort of drawn-out versions of this, I don't ever remember being on the kind of beneficiary side of this.

You only really remember being the thing, oh, it's fucking us that's conceded, isn't it?

And the more drawn out it is, the worse the realisation becomes.

Because when he completes the first bit about how your team have dominated possession, they've had so much of the ball and then...

And you think, oh, this is a joke.

And then you feel, you feel quite annoyed.

You feel about annoyed by him.

So I can see how some people might not like it.

Well, yeah, that's kind of what I mean, I guess, now that maybe we didn't take things quite as seriously as we do now.

Maybe we did, and maybe, like you say, it was annoying.

I mean, did he not vary it enough to keep you guessing?

Because presumably there were some times where you'd sort of hear the kind of double, double bluff.

Yes, he must have done that.

Yeah, yeah.

Because otherwise, it's just the same.

Yeah, I mean, that would just be, and that would be a statement of fact, right?

They've dominated and now they've got their goal.

Yeah.

All right, Keith.

They're all the same, aren't they?

They've got their goal.

Perhaps this kind of mini phenomenon, Dave, is overshadowed by the more commonly known Jeff Stelling-inspired meme, which is there's been an X and Y, which way is it gone, correspondent Z.

And

the versatility of that meme across culture,

I still love it.

Like, I still think it's a viable thing to put out.

Obviously, it's usually sort of politics-inspired.

There's been another dismissal at the cabinet, which way is it gone?

And I still like it.

I don't think he's ever grown tired.

You know, it's the purest essence of that format, isn't it?

And you're right, Charlie.

Like, it does, there is something a bit nostalgic about it.

You know, you think about what scenarios do I end up watching Soccer Saturday now?

Like, very occasionally, if you're out on a Saturday afternoon with some mates, and it might be in a pub, but then you can't hit, you know, you can't hear it.

So you don't get that sort of thing.

Yeah, why do I watch it less now?

But it sort of harks back to days just knocking about a Saturday at university really for me, which was which was in that classic cami sort of Portsmouth Reading era.

But surely now as well, if it was a game you cared about, certainly at Premier League level, you'd be streaming it.

You know, you wouldn't be, you'd be sort of streaming slash on social media.

I just can't imagine.

How would you do that, I wonder?

Yeah, kicking, yeah.

Yeah, basically, Charlie, what you're trying to say is you can't put yourself at the mercy of other people anymore.

Exactly.

You have to have it firsthand because if you do, I mean, you could subtly influence it with your mind, Yuri Geller style, and your team won't lose.

Well, that's the thing.

That's the thing.

And that's a whole other concept.

But there's a great bit in Fever Pitch where he talked, when Nicombi talks about that and how he comes down, like, he's scarred by coming down one morning.

And I think it's his mum's written, like, Arsenal lost exclamation mark.

And he's like, what?

Like, how is that how I'm finding this out?

And why the exclamation mark?

Like, you do want control of how you find out a result is such like a carefully.

I had this actually when I was in Australia because of the time difference, a couple of times I'd wake up and so, this is so unusual now.

I'd have missed the team news, the whole game, the whole reaction, which is kind of mad.

And you wake up and you're like, how do I want to find this out?

Like, what's the best way?

And what's like going to bring luck?

It's the most feeling.

And it hits mostly.

Like, Charlie, your situation there is quite extreme, but for an average fan, it will hit when they're playing like a pre-season friendly in America.

So you basically, it happens overnight.

And you've got to wake up and see the score.

I'm such a coward in these situations.

I basically have have to cover my phone screen and gently push my hand across

for a friendly.

Yeah, it's crazy.

I know, sometimes if I'm checking it out, it'll feel like I'm getting like A-level results or something.

Oh, God.

That's right.

That's insane.

I think

your notification settings are important there in that scenario, Charlie, because when you turn your phone on, like, and it's all there, like, do you just clear all or do you just sort of scroll back through them and sort of see it in reverse chronological order?

I refuse to get push notifications.

I've had

no, so do I, but even like from Freddie, there might be like on a WhatsApp or something.

Yeah, there's just something, there'll be something that slips through the net.

Got no mate, some alright.

I had a similar situation when Watford were going for promotion in 2012-13, which was the season that led to the Dini goal.

But on the last day of the season, we could have gone up automatically.

And I was in Vegas, and I'd sort of committed mentally to trying to stay up to follow the game, but just we were on a night out, and I just, I just, at some point, just couldn't hack it anymore and sort of drifted off to sleep.

But because I was aware that this thing was happening, I kind of kept sort of coming to a little bit and looking at my phone and getting texts from my dad.

And I, and I sort of was sort of hard.

We ended up losing the game, it was quite a calamitous situation.

And then I sort of drifted off back to sleep, then woke up the next morning.

I was like, did it happen?

Did I dream that?

Has it actually happened?

Did we lose?

Oh, yeah, we did.

Which is a very similar feeling as well to following an election.

And you sort of, you try and stay, particularly it's like the American ones, you try and stay.

Wisconsin's gone.

Yeah, you try and stay up and then you sort of hear half through sleep that, no, Trump's going to walk it.

And then you wake up in the morning, oh, God, yeah, it really is as bad as I thought it was.

Spot on.

Election results across the pond are exactly like following your team across the pond.

A cracking set of fascinations.

Thanks to listeners for those.

We'll be back very shortly with your irritations.

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Oh, look at that!

That is wonderful!

Welcome back to Football Clichés.

We've done your fascinations.

It's time for your footballing irritations and we kick it off with Ryan Bridget Blake.

Hi guys, my footballing irritation is my eldest starting to watch football properly for the first time.

He's 10 years old and that is a great thing but I'm having to marry teaching him how to watch football and react to football at the same time as managing my own anxieties about watching my team play football.

So he will be peppering me with questions about everything from who have United signed this week, why are we selling this player, what did that advertising hoarding say, while I am worrying about why my team stops playing after the first 10 minutes.

And it's very hard to channel that frustration frustration in a positive way.

I mean I'm in awe to a certain extent Charlie of a listener just essentially using their child as a footballing irritation which is

what a relationship that must be.

Charlie you mentioned in conversation to me the other day about how difficult you find it to be questioned on football while watching a football game like it's almost like there's a certain level of football knowledge that you want from a co-watcher, right?

Yeah, I would say I'm fairly specific.

I mean in that instance I was saying if someone were just asking questions because they they feel they want to like fill a silence I'd sort of be like do we need to do this now

if they genuinely were curious then you know that's it for the postmatch we've got an hour to we're off air yeah exactly I can really imagine Charlie's face at that point like just that that that look of annoyed concentration yeah definitely I mean the kid thing is interesting I mean my sons are too young really to watch for for very long.

What I do sometimes reflect on though is the fact that like I'm more of a child when it comes to watching football than they are, which is quite a sort of sobering, humbling experience and does make you question, oh my God, why am I like this?

Like this is crazy.

You know, I'm sat there sort of so tense, getting like irritated by things and whereas they would be able to like brush it off straight away.

It'd be like, oh, did we win?

It'd be like, no, I'd be like, eh, and move on to the next thing.

And sort of, I'm the child, which is like, yeah.

quite a realization.

It's brought back some quite vivid memories for me, this one, because thinking back to my first ever live game, which was Watford against Blackburn in the Coca-Cola Cup in October 1995, the thing that I actually can remember, other than the green pitch when you walk out of the steps and all that, but the thing that I can actually remember more than anything else is my dad getting a bit annoyed at me asking a lot of questions.

Just constantly, you know, just chipping away at him, just probably asking, you know, observational questions about who's that?

What's that?

What's that for?

What are they doing?

Like,

I was 10 as well.

I was the same age.

So, yeah,

I guess it's just the way.

And this is why I've thought carefully about this, about how I want to introduce my kids to going to live football.

And I do think like a friendly or something like that would be really key because I want to be able to not care too much about the game.

I want to be able to leave, say, if they're bored.

I want to be able to field all those questions.

Whereas if it's like the idea of taking them to like an important game, certainly at this age, it's like, I don't think that's good for anyone.

Like, you know, I don't think they want to be around that kind of level of tension.

The tone we've taken so far is that it's annoying to be asked easy elementary questions about football while you're watching football, especially your own team.

But some of these elementary questions are really difficult to answer.

Like, it forces you to confront some basic elements of football that you've never really had to consider for a long, long time.

My daughter, I was watching Man City Arsenal at the weekend, and she noticed that one of the keepers had ventured out of their area to sweep up a ball, basically.

And he he hadn't really made much of an effort to get back into goal because they don't really these days.

They sort of linger around to be a sort of sweeper.

And she was like, why hasn't he gone back into, why has he not gone back to his goal?

Like,

isn't that what he's supposed to be?

Is he even allowed to be out this far?

And I was like, oh.

Well, let me tell you about Guardiola's Barcelona team in the early 2010s.

But at that age, Charlie, all they're obsessed by is, are you allowed to do this?

So it's like, yes, you are allowed.

Except in this situation, or that one.

But then, of of course, well, don't worry about that, Pippa.

Yeah, you basically are allowed, yeah.

That's a really good point.

I think because like early school years is there is that big obsession and preoccupation with rules and following them and breaking them and that kind of thing.

Yeah, that's that's very true.

Um, yeah.

I mean, in her earlier days, Dave, she wanted to know who the referee was.

She couldn't fathom who this person was in a different shirt wandering around in the middle.

Who are they blamed for?

Yeah, but then you have to explain it in such pathetic terms.

Like, oh, he's the one that makes everyone behave properly.

Like, he makes sure that they stick to the rules.

I'm so annoyed with myself for having to talk to someone like that.

Daddy, can I stay up for RefWatch again?

Is that you?

No, that's Howard Webb.

Thank you very much.

I couldn't not do this quiz, Charlie.

The game that Dave cites, Watford versus Blackburn in the Coca-Cola Cup, 24th of October 1995, it finished 2-1 to the visitors.

Who scored?

For Blackburn.

Either team.

So, well, I mean, because Blackburn would have been Premier League champions at that time, but sort of, you know, having that very difficult follow-up season.

I wonder how much rotation because they would have been, they were famously in the Champions League.

I mean, they bombed out, but, you know, and that was the time, that was the season, wasn't it, that United lost 3-0 to York.

And I remember that was a kind of...

But they played a scratched team and it was kind of...

Stop this extra context.

Yeah, sorry.

No one needs this.

But anyway, there would have been some rotation.

I'll go with

Mike Newell getting on the score shit.

I feel like he might have come in for arrested Shearer or Sutton.

Mike Newell scored the winner.

Wow.

In fact.

There you go.

Who scored for Watford, Dave?

Kevin Phillips puts one million.

Mark Phillips.

Really?

Phillips, Shearer, and Newell.

Phillips and Shearer.

On the same pitch.

Little did they know.

Around five years later, it would be a seismic kick.

Wow.

So 66.6% of the goal scorers were Premier League Golden Boot winners, ultimately.

Class.

Wow.

Yeah, fantastic stuff from Ryan there.

Second irritation of football comes from Greg Head.

My football irritation is kit manufacturers being unable to deal with the problems caused by striped shirts.

The stripes don't line up on the shoulders, they don't line up on the sleeves.

Under the arms, you get one big stripe or even a triangle shape where it tapers.

And then they've tried to deal with the numbers being difficult to spot by putting big horrible shields on the back, which look terrible if you don't have a number on it.

Thank you.

I mean, I've always been troubled, Dave, by striped shirts and how they deal with the...

with the names and numbers situation.

Newcastle were very much ahead of their time in terms of Premier League cynicism, weren't they, when they did the shield approach, which was 97-8, I would say.

Yeah, I think so, yeah.

And obviously, it looked terrible if you didn't stump up the cast to have a number placed in the middle of the shield on the back of the shirt.

So there must have been some backlash to this.

I don't remember any, but it must have gone down like a lead balloon.

Yeah, it's probably too much hassle to do like a separate non-shielded shield.

Oh, yeah, because it was incorporated into the design as well.

Yeah, so yeah.

I guess this depends on how entrenched the stripes are into the club's history.

But you could have like a plain back.

I think that's a very tasteful way to do it.

Stripey front.

Yeah.

I think Bournemouth have sort of dabbled with that, Charlie.

But it's been an ongoing concern for football for about a century.

How do you accommodate a number and then a name on a striped shirt?

I mean, stripes are popular.

Can't deny it.

Yeah.

I do remember that Newcastle one and it

feeling like quite a good solution.

But a couple of years earlier, Sheffield Wednesday, famously striped team, Charlie, came up with a solution of not only did they have a little box for the number, which I don't know if that was on the commercially available shirt, but they also had a box around the name at the top, which looked really good.

But again, if you're buying that shirt with two boxes on it, it's going to be an absolute scandal.

But I'm pretty sure they didn't make that commercially available.

Yeah, when Petrescu was there and won.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they had.

Because around the time, because I think they were like player names or kind of debuted at the 92, 93 FA Cup final, which they, which Effort Wednesday were in, obviously.

Nice.

Yeah, I mean, it looks good, but yeah, there are concerns about the.

Yeah, I've got a picture of it now.

Chris Waddle shirt from 94, 95.

And yeah, the waddle and the font as well.

Nice, boxy, really nice font.

And the red number.

It's really nice.

It's helpful.

Like, very helpful if you're a commentator.

I was thinking this earlier in the season when Wofford played QPR at home, and the numbers, obviously, they've got the hoops, and then the numbers are just red in this sort of standard EFL font.

And no effort has been made to have any sort of legibility there at all.

And if you were a commentator, you really would be struggling.

That's when you have to start looking like boot colours and sort of identifying players for their hairstyles or whatever.

It seems to me, Charlie, that the best solution if you're a blue and white or black and white striped team is to have red numbers.

That's it.

That is the only

solution that football's ever come up with to make it look remotely legible.

Just put it in red.

Is it a bit of a colour-blind thing?

I don't know if blue and red goes very well.

It's not my area of expertise, I'll be honest.

Black wouldn't work either, really.

So, I think you're best to sort of try and like white it out, sort of negative space, but then uh, depends on the basic.

It's a border, a little border around the numbers and letters that marks it out a bit.

But from a distance, it's still going to be fairly useless, isn't it?

What a conversation this is.

But, I mean, but Greg's bang on.

It's never quite been accommodated well.

Which team has absolutely smashed it?

I can't think of one.

Um, Milan, I guess, had an easier job, Dave, because they were black and red, but then just had white white numbers and white, and that looked class.

I mean, that's timeless.

That's probably the best deployment of names and numbers on a stripe kit I've ever seen.

Yeah, yeah, it's good.

I bet we'll have a lot of commentators listening to this, nodding along in agreement.

Yeah.

So, good to raise awareness of this.

And if Greg can push through some legislation about this, then

all the better for all of us.

Right, I've saved this irritation for last.

It comes all the way from Norway.

Torkil Riesan.

I hate it when referees want to spare the weaker part and end the game early.

Recently, I was at the World Cup qualifier at Ulevol, watching my Norway play Moldova.

We lead the group, but the goal difference is key here, since Italy winning their game and beating us in the final group game would make us equal in points.

Now, this was a trouncing, 11-1, but there were more goals in that game.

And there were nine substitutions, stoppages, injuries, but you knew what would happen.

And the board came up two minutes.

Two minutes if this was one one they would have added six minutes easily and those lost minutes could potentially cost norway the place in the world cup and after every goal harland ran back to the halfway line with the ball quickly to get the game restarted and then if this doesn't say to the refs these minutes matter nothing will stop with this mercy refereeing at your own discretion please just obviously an immensely good delivery of this irritation charlie first of all yeah superb i mean this is really it's an interesting one because we generally hate refs for blindly just following the laws and and refusing to use discretion yeah but what we hate here is that they are kind of taking matters into their own hands and and kind of abusing the laws i mean davy this is definitely a thing like there's no there's no there's no debate about this this definitely happens uh you see it in pretty much every thrashing in the second half.

And so therefore, you have to assume it's some sort of unwritten slash hinted at directive amongst PGMOL and their kind of continental cousins.

But how can this be allowed?

Like,

what's the benefit in having this mercy compared to missing out what potentially might be an extra goal for a team?

I think, yeah, I think it's just discretion, isn't it?

And I think in that example there with the Haaland at Noy, and he's just, he scored five, didn't he?

And he's just absolutely plundering goals.

You know, maybe he would be annoyed that he'd want to get another one.

But generally, players and teams are accepting of the fact that, yeah, come on.

Like, especially if you're the losing team, come on, ref, blow it up.

Yeah, I don't think there are directives.

I'd be very surprised if there were.

No, because I still,

yeah, I think it is just in the moment a ref feeling.

Like, I mean, there are times as well where you do get a feel for, because sometimes the winning team, the team that's doing the battering, they might have another game in a few days and they've clearly, they're clearly not bothered anymore either.

So there are times when it it sort of makes sense like it's in everyone's interest it's like you know who are we going call it on 80 yeah exactly like you're getting battered you've stopped trying fuck it let's just call it after 92 but

yeah i can i can see why it why whatever the situation is it's going to bother some people because it is odd i like you know there are some times where you know there will be like one or two minutes added on you're like that's just never a thing like we know that's not a thing so this is you are taking the law into your own hands.

You do occasionally see when there's a slight discrepancy between the TV clock and the referee's watch, and say they blow up for half-time at 44, 57.

And then you get people to go, what, we're just making the rules up now, are we?

We're just blowing up when we want.

Genuine scandal, and that happens like three seconds.

Yeah, but the referee's assessor should be stepping in here and saying, marking them down, stamping it out.

But I don't know, maybe it will come down to goal difference in Group I of World Cup qualifications at least we sneak through.

Goal difference is the thing, isn't it?

It sort of just gives you, certain scenarios at least, it just does give you plausible route to question these things.

Norwegian tabloids finding out the email address of this referee.

I think the team, yeah, it needs to be shown that they are committed to scoring those goals.

I think if they're not, then I can sort of understand it.

Thing is, though.

To defend this alleged directive a little bit, Charlie, some of the stakeholders in a game, this is probably all right with.

The winners probably conserve energy, make sure they don't get an injury in the last minute.

The losers, well, obviously, are catered for here.

But

what about the fans of the team who are winning?

If your team are winning 6-0 on telly and the referee indicates three minutes of injury time, you get annoyed because

I want three more minutes of Olays, please.

I want to see my team in cruise control, zero stress mode, for three more minutes.

I want three more minutes of football, but I ought to watch, please.

I'm being robbed.

That is true, and because it is like a rare gift to have like, yeah, completely stress-free

basking football.

It's annoying when you see the clock ticking down.

Even from sort of 78, you're like, I want more.

This is great.

This is the dream.

No paranoia, no fear whatsoever.

Referees taking it away from us.

Okay, so, okay, let's assume that this is a thing and it is encouraged from within the game, Dave.

I still think two minutes is pushing it.

I think three is fine.

Three is like,

that accounts for most things, but it's also merciful.

Three is fine.

Oh, so you think three is the sweet spot between not taking the piss, but still allowing some injury time?

Yeah.

Spot, because three is fine.

Three is what you would expect from a normal game of football.

And also, if FIFA did want to make, if ifab did want, would want to make this an official thing, they should say, okay, if it's more than six goals, it's always going to be three minutes, no matter what happens.

And then everyone would be like, fine, okay.

So consistency, that's what I want.

I think the inflation of added on time, though, means even three minutes would feel like not very much.

Three minutes isn't much nowadays.

I mean, it wasn't Moyes complaining about three the other day.

Like, you never get three at the end of a game.

We're basically conditioned to it now.

Very quickly, we become conditioned by the fact that three does seem swift.

But still, when five goes up, people still go, five?

What?

Do you think if you, because obviously there's a nice sweet spot where you're, let's say,

obviously if you're one goal, but even maybe if you're two goals behind and you get a really big, chunky nine minutes of injury time, the home crowd, if they're behind, it'll give them a bit of impetus to roar the team on.

Is there an inverse where

what's the number of minutes that would have to be shown when you are so far behind that you've got no chance of winning for there to be a mass groan in the stadium from the home fans?

Oh, come on.

I totally imagine that impulse to groan.

So, I don't know, six?

Six goals, six minutes.

Yeah.

But, okay, here's a scenario for you, Charlie.

If we are going to test this potential directive, what if you're 2-0 up right on the cusp of the 90th minute and the injury time's about to be shown?

What if you've got to score two more in the next minute or so?

So suddenly it's now a thrashing.

So the referee's going to change his mind about how much injury time there's going to be based on what he all thought there should be?

That's unbelievable.

Yeah.

I think that's why directives like this don't and can't exist because you're opening up a can of worms.

I can imagine Keezy getting annoyed though at this.

Why is is he playing eight minutes of injury time when there's 6-0 up?

Somebody could get injured here.

I thought he could go the other way.

Yeah, he could also go the other way and be like,

it's not for the refs to decide.

Like, I would go and make up some anecdote.

Imagine telling Cluffy that they weren't getting the full amount of time.

You'd be telling him, wouldn't you?

Because I wouldn't dare.

So much for letter of the law, Howard.

Yeah, exactly.

He'd be listing the substitutions in his blog.

Well, there was one

in the 13th minute, obviously early doors, and then there were six more in the second half.

Now, that adds up to, as far as I understand, three and a half minutes.

Right, that's enough.

We're not going into injury time.

Thanks to you, Dave Walker.

Thank you.

Thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshare.

Thank you.

Thanks to everyone for listening.

Newcastle Quizzes, we'll see you at Digital tonight.

Everyone else, we'll be back on Tuesday.

See you then.

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.