Blown-open title races, punditspeak on the terraces & Woltemade's weird penalty

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Speaker 12 I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like.

Speaker 13 Is Gascoigne gonna have a crack?

Speaker 6 He is, you know. Oh, I see!

Speaker 6 Brilliant!

Speaker 6 But jeez! He's round the goal, Keybane!

Speaker 6 Absolutely incredible! He launched himself six feet into the crowd and Kung Fu kicked a supporter who was

Speaker 6 without a shadow of a doubt getting him lit. Oh, I say,

Speaker 6 it's amazing! He does it tame, and same, and tame again. Break up the music! Charge a glass!

Speaker 6 This nation is going to dance all night!

Speaker 14 Is the title race eligible to be blown open yet? Possible pundit speak in the stands at Old Trafford.

Speaker 17 Martin Keown mixes up his sporting idioms, the number one purveyor of commentary vibrato, Nick Voltamar does weird penalty, Ange Postakoglu goes big picture with the press pack, fact-checking Jimmy Floyd Hasselbanks' crossover chat on Strictly, the trigger point for becoming a former England international, and Keys and Grey on green cards.

Speaker 17 Brought to your ears by Goal Hanger Podcasts.

Speaker 15 This is Football Clichés.

Speaker 19 Hello, everyone, and welcome to Football Clichés.

Speaker 15 I'm Adam Hurry. This is the adjudication panel.
Joining me is Charlie Eccleshare.

Speaker 25 How are you doing? Very well, thank you.

Speaker 22 This podcast will go out after the first leg of the UK and Ireland Football Clichés live tour in Brighton.

Speaker 24 Should we just assume that we spoke well in Brighton?

Speaker 30 I think so, yeah.

Speaker 31 I don't attempt fate, though.

Speaker 33 Let's not, yeah, let's not go overboard.

Speaker 6 It was fine. It happened.

Speaker 34 Yeah, no, no, it was good, I promise. Alongside you is David Walker, who I hope is a lot more optimistic about things.

Speaker 37 Oh, yeah, big time. First show of the tour.
Looking forward to it.

Speaker 38 We're ready.

Speaker 22 Yeah, we've addressed it both in future and past tense now.

Speaker 24 And we'll also be in Cardiff at the Glee Club on Wednesday night for all the shows.

Speaker 14 Door 6.30, show 7.30.

Speaker 39 We'll finish about 9:30 and straight to the boozer.

Speaker 24 Speaking of Cardiff Boozers, nominations for the Packet, the Eli Jenkins, the nearby Spoons all seem very viable candidates.

Speaker 14 If you want to join us on this tour, go to tickets.football clichés.com and you'll see all the venues there.

Speaker 37 Before we adjudication panel, something remarkable happened yesterday to me actually.

Speaker 37 So I was

Speaker 37 on the way to Wimbledon Commons extensions for Ribblesdale Rovers, which is really far away and hard to get to if you're not driving.

Speaker 37 And I was on the bus with the athletics Jay Harris, who's also our captain, and our goalkeeper Brad. We're sitting there just having a chat, as you do.

Speaker 37 And then a woman got on the bus and proceeded to launch into an incredible religious sermon. Like, she gave it both barrels.
She was... giving it everything.

Speaker 37 She was like touching us on the knee, blessing us.

Speaker 37 She correctly deduced that I wasn't married, but then I did, I did.

Speaker 45 Because all the stagdos are you go to and stuff.

Speaker 47 I invited her to the wedding next year.

Speaker 37 But she was singing, she was giving everything, and it went on for ages to the point where the sort of five or six people on the bus were all we're all sort of looking at each other, going,

Speaker 37 What do we do here? Do we just let her get on with it? Like, should we engage? Should we just not have a word?

Speaker 37 Yeah, it was like, honestly, you felt like you were in like a gospel church in the front pew. And then, after she'd been going for about five or so minutes, she paused for breath.
The bus stopped.

Speaker 37 A bloke who was sitting opposite us and had eyed us a few times got up and he just went, love the pod, Dave, and got off the bus.

Speaker 36 I was hoping for a listened fair play there.

Speaker 37 Well, I did say to him, cheers, mate, I said, which was true, we'd just seen a live For My Sins Corner because she uttered the immortal phrase several times in the most appropriate and true context.

Speaker 28 So, but broadly, a positive message, then.

Speaker 19 It's not that, you know, we're all going to hell,

Speaker 22 the world's going to end.

Speaker 40 It was just like, you know, praise God.

Speaker 37 No, I think it was all positive. And thanks to her blessing, Ribblesdale Rovers won 2-0.

Speaker 6 Lovely. There we go.
Hira, she's

Speaker 48 like, Eileen Drew, Drury, Drury.

Speaker 24 Let's not make light of it, of the Lord. Right, let's kick off the adjudication panel with this from Chris Newman.

Speaker 22 Charlie says, at the end of the Chelsea versus Liverpool game, Gary Neville claimed that Liverpool loss has blown the title race wide open.

Speaker 35 I'm not having that after only seven games.

Speaker 24 How close to the end of the season, or after how many games, can it be claimed the title race has been blown wide open?

Speaker 36 Can we safely assume that it hasn't been formed enough yet to be blown open?

Speaker 32 Yeah, or, I mean, there is a world in which, had Liverpool won their, had Liverpool been Palace the week before, and so they'd have won their first six games, and everyone then would have basically been saying Liverpool had won the title, as ludicrous as that sounds, had they then lost and shown like first chinks of vulnerability, like we might have a title race on our hands kind of thing.

Speaker 47 I still think it would have been premature.

Speaker 52 This feels because it was already, I mean, they only had a two-point lead going into the weekend after six games.

Speaker 52 But it's a complicated one to actually kind of pin down when you can start saying it or how many points there need to be as a gap.

Speaker 24 But I think you typically...

Speaker 54 It's a bigger lead being brought down to something that feels kind of within reach, you know, so even a sort of five-point lead becoming becoming a two-point one or something like that.

Speaker 22 It's interesting to me, Dave, straight away that Charlie's reading this as a one-team dominance being being brought back into a two- or three-horse race rather than a two- or three-horse race being opened up into a potential bigger scenario.

Speaker 19 Either way, it feels like a post-Christmas thing for me, Dave.

Speaker 36 This isn't a first half of the season's remit.

Speaker 37 Yeah, this is very early. And interestingly, Arsenal have gone odds-on favourites for the title now, which again feels early.
I think just short odds-on favourites.

Speaker 37 I think because a couple of tricky games that they've had against the big teams have come through and then they're now top. So yeah, it is early, definitely early.

Speaker 37 I think we had something similar last season, didn't we? There's this sort of the appetite from Sky to whenever there's a sniff of a title race being blown wide open,

Speaker 37 we have to get into that. But I mean, also, I think the Arsenal thing sort of plays into the narrative because you've been so close.

Speaker 37 And yet so far in the last few seasons, the fact that they're now there, top of the league, when when a few weeks ago it felt like maybe they weren't going to be, Liverpool are going to walk it again.

Speaker 38 I think they're going to win it.

Speaker 39 I think they're going to win it purely for narrative reasons.

Speaker 24 If a script writer were in charge of Arsenal's destiny, Charlie, they would script Arsenal to win the title now.

Speaker 55 They would do it now. Why do you think that?

Speaker 32 Just because they've come close.

Speaker 24 Throw us up

Speaker 42 in a row.

Speaker 52 Which they did win it last time they came three runners up three times a row.

Speaker 30 Yeah, they're the only team to have done it.

Speaker 24 Yeah, I think I feel like the Arsenal narrative is ripening this season.

Speaker 37 You should be the script writer, really, Charlie, in this scenario.

Speaker 57 You're the best man on the job.

Speaker 51 Yeah, I think I'd defer to my brother who's an actual script writer.

Speaker 6 I mean, it would...

Speaker 6 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 54 Just there in a fact-checking capacity.

Speaker 53 I mean, if you were a scriptwriter, though, would you... You might think, oh, this has happened almost in a very similar way before.

Speaker 51 I might go for something a little more outlandish than sort of just hard

Speaker 57 in 2002.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I guess not.

Speaker 51 I suppose it's just, yeah, a remake, a kind of heritage story.

Speaker 27 Well, I'm glad we covered who we think will win the Premier League this season.

Speaker 24 Good to get that sincere chat out of the way.

Speaker 19 Right, moving on.

Speaker 39 This is from a compilation video of Senna Laman's Manchester United debut, their goalkeeper, by the way.

Speaker 19 It's from fan shot footage from the stands, and it begins with him at full stretch to keep out a long-range Sunderland effort.

Speaker 60 Nicole Chatras Saglani writes in, David says, I think the guy in clip one was going to say he's got the freedom of old Trafford.

Speaker 6 Surely that's not normal fan discourse.

Speaker 41 Commentators slash pundits only.

Speaker 6 Yes.

Speaker 49 I really want this to be true. I want it to be true so much.

Speaker 24 I think he was going to say that, yeah.

Speaker 6 There's no other alternative, right?

Speaker 37 Lamons then makes the save, so he has to sort of stop halfway through.

Speaker 57 But

Speaker 57 the only other option is he's going to go postcode or Manchester or that would be even better.

Speaker 24 But I mean, ostensibly not prohibited, I would say, Charlie, for a fan to use this phrase.

Speaker 36 But when you're actually at the place itself in real time I don't like it I think that's what makes it weirder he's got the freedom of old Trafford where we are right now

Speaker 6 it is an odd thing for your mind to turn to in that moment yeah

Speaker 37 and and as evidenced by that clip too long as well there's too much to get out there in that scenario he's got the freedom of old traffic

Speaker 6 I mean you really would it's like one of those tests you really would have to have the freedom of old trafford for a fan to be able to get that out comfortably shouldn't it should have got there in a freedom of old trafford that is quite a lot of time yeah he should have said it while the player had the possession of the ball.

Speaker 24 That would have given him more time. Here's a very straightforward one for you.

Speaker 39 Here's Martin Keown on TNT after Arsenal's midweek win over Olympiakos.

Speaker 67 And you see the game out, and then Saka gets the winning goal. So, you know, if it was a game of chess, then it's game-set and match to Arsenal in the way that they set out.

Speaker 67 Got a bit tricky in the middle.

Speaker 36 I mean, the appeal of this is very basic, Charlie.

Speaker 60 It's the sort of butchered sound bite that belongs in a gift book of the funniest footy points, doesn't it?

Speaker 61 I mean, it's perfectly formed in that sense.

Speaker 51 Did you see Keown recently in the same sort of format, in that kind of TNT, sort of on-pitch studio, informal vibe?

Speaker 24 And they had Noni Madweke came over.

Speaker 45 It was after the forest game.

Speaker 53 And he said something was like, I have to say, I thought you were really selfish.

Speaker 53 I always thought you were a really selfish player before, but you're not, you're not like you're really helping the team. It was so weird.

Speaker 19 And Noni was sort of like, you just don't really expect that sort of grilling.

Speaker 32 You know, it's normally like light stuff, just like, oh, you've been so great since coming in. And he was a bit like, uh, yeah, I mean, I don't think I'm selfish.

Speaker 46 Just chill out, Martin.

Speaker 37 it was so intense this all feeds into the just the growing concept that he's one of the most intense men yeah in football broadcasting how far are we dave from a dreamland episode all about martin keown i think i feel like we need a couple more months of content and then we're right there i think it's i think it's ripe for us he's getting there because as this clip shows he he's now starting to add to his normal sort of intense punditry almost stuart pierce-esque weird phrasing and and stuff as well Um, so it's all in there, yeah.

Speaker 32 Yeah, there are some amazing ones from back in the days.

Speaker 54 Do you remember that one he did about Vengo?

Speaker 32 And he's like, you know, he thinks retirement is for old people.

Speaker 58 Old people die just suddenly shattered.

Speaker 62 It's so weird.

Speaker 6 It's like, what?

Speaker 62 Like, where has this come from?

Speaker 71 I've got an addiction to life, if anything.

Speaker 63 Yeah, he's delighted that one.

Speaker 6 Also, like, we're doing it.

Speaker 32 Yeah, him saying, like, it should be pronounced Keowen is another, like, quite interesting little quirk.

Speaker 6 Like, where does that come from?

Speaker 35 Oh, God.

Speaker 61 Anyway, right, let's return to the lovely concept of musical commentary and a real new candidate in this growing field the commentary vibrato of mike minet he was on commentary duty last week for chirat versus real madrid and monaco versus manchester city

Speaker 13 dias

Speaker 13 it is five

Speaker 13 calls it back for rinders rinders goes for it

Speaker 6 I mean,

Speaker 55 first one had the kind of anticipatory aspect to it.

Speaker 24 The second one just felt genuinely nervous, Charlie.

Speaker 49 It was very strange.

Speaker 47 Yeah,

Speaker 47 it is that kind of like, ooh,

Speaker 57 it's going to happen.

Speaker 36 Is it an effective device day for a commentator?

Speaker 41 I mean, there are so many situations in attacking passages of play that it feels like it is quite appropriate because, as I say,

Speaker 41 it's a kind of provisional state, isn't it?

Speaker 37 Yeah, I'm not sure you should go to the well too often with it.

Speaker 6 Right.

Speaker 37 Unless you really want to sort of make it your calling card.

Speaker 39 I think he's out vibrato in Chris Wise at the moment.

Speaker 22 So one of them's got to really step up at the moment.

Speaker 37 Should have a commentator's choir, really, shouldn't we?

Speaker 37 Christmas charity concert.

Speaker 63 Would listen. Drury doing the solo.

Speaker 42 I've taken the liberty of editing them together a little bit more tightly, and I think they go together superbly.

Speaker 13 Rhinders! Brahim Diaz!

Speaker 13 Rhinders! Brahe Diaz!

Speaker 13 Rinders! Brahe Diaz!

Speaker 46 That's nice.

Speaker 53 Particularly, is it makes sound as he's like saying Brahim? There's like a particular flourish there. Yeah.

Speaker 37 Somebody's got to put that to music.

Speaker 32 Yeah.

Speaker 37 There's got to be a listener out there who can have some fun with that.

Speaker 41 Are you born with this, Dave, or do you have to is it taught?

Speaker 36 Nobody knows. Right.

Speaker 19 An observation from the weekend.

Speaker 24 Charlie, I genuinely like things in football in a really subtle way that I've never seen before.

Speaker 41 And Nick Voltamada's penalty for Newcastle against Notting Forest was genuinely weird. I've never seen anything like it.
I've never seen a penalty clipped into the top corner like that.

Speaker 41 I mean, you see...

Speaker 36 Plenty of penalties dispatched into the top corner with power, perhaps even sort of placed deliberately, but that was kind of...

Speaker 41 He sort of clipped it across his body really tightly. It was amazing.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 47 It makes you feel a bit nervous, doesn't it?

Speaker 53 Because he and it's it goes so high.

Speaker 70 Yeah.

Speaker 32 It looks it's it's weird to sort of get get under it that much, but in a really controlled

Speaker 6 way.

Speaker 51 You see someone get under it, you're like, oh god, that's going.

Speaker 48 Yeah.

Speaker 32 That's going miles over.

Speaker 37 And also because he's so tall, he sort of lurched over the ball.

Speaker 37 You know, it sort of towers over it and he sort of had, he sort of has to dig it out from underneath him because he's so big.

Speaker 37 But he also did the sort of Ivan Tony-esque, I'm going to look directly at the goalkeeper, not the ball thing.

Speaker 51 And normally...

Speaker 5 Oh, that probably explains it.

Speaker 37 Normally, when you do that, though, the only thing you really can do is sort of side foot it because you want to be sure of your technique.

Speaker 37 So to do a no-look, not look at the ball penalty and clip it into the top corner.

Speaker 41 Well, that's the thing. Yeah, he kind of used his laces rather than a side foot.
So he kind of sort of dragged his foot across the turf.

Speaker 60 I mean, I'm focusing, Charlie, on how weird it was, but I think it actually might be a really effective way.

Speaker 59 I think there's a big margin for error.

Speaker 55 I don't think that would go wide.

Speaker 60 You potentially could go go over, but I think it's over of this.

Speaker 30 The over is the other thing.

Speaker 51 Yeah, I remember on that topic of like singing penalty you've not seen before.

Speaker 6 I remember Spurs beat Brighton at home in February 2024, and Pascal Gross took a penalty.

Speaker 45 It felt like you've got, he just sort of like cut across it into the corner in the most deliberate, technically accomplished way.

Speaker 30 And it was like, wow. Yeah, these players have got really, really good.

Speaker 52 You know, when people do things that it looks like they're sort of just in training, kind of, just experimenting with penalties.

Speaker 32 And Baltimore had a bit of that as well.

Speaker 39 It was very training ground, actually, just like he was mucking about. Yeah, incredibly casual.

Speaker 60 Right, next up, this came from Anthony Groot.

Speaker 56 He says, I came across this innovative term for a goalkeeper on the latest subscriber episode of your goal hanger stablemates.

Speaker 39 The rest is history.

Speaker 72 And I immediately thought it would be worth a mention on the pod.

Speaker 24 Historian Dominic Sandbrook and his co-presenter Tabby Sirat are discussing 20th-century French author Albert Camus and his youth as a goalkeeper in Algiers when Tabby comes out with this superb piece of vocabulary.

Speaker 8 Yeah, everyone makes a lot of

Speaker 8 his association with football. Didn't he play in goal? Because he was kind of too sickly and weedy to be involved in the rough and tumble.

Speaker 11 I actually had a Camus football shirt, which I used to play in in the 1990s. So people can read into that while they will, but I didn't play in goal.

Speaker 8 I was going to say, I was going to say, I didn't think you were a goalsman.

Speaker 11 A goalsman? Did you say a goalsman?

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 11 Wow. Tabby.

Speaker 11 You've actually been to football matches and you believe the word is a goalsman? Yeah, a goalsman. Yeah.

Speaker 6 Okay, brilliant.

Speaker 8 All true footballers know that.

Speaker 11 That's the single best thing you've said

Speaker 11 ever since you joined Goal Hanger.

Speaker 8 So, Camille is a bright, precocious goalsman.

Speaker 24 Oh, the synergy here, Dave.

Speaker 19 It's wonderful. Here we go.

Speaker 73 More of this.

Speaker 37 Yeah, very nice. Should get Dominic Sandbrook on and Tabby by the looks of it.

Speaker 47 I reckon a high proportion of our listeners will have had an Albert Camus football t-shirt.

Speaker 6 I was going to say

Speaker 36 right at the top of the list. Is it philosophy football? Is it that ranger t-shirts?

Speaker 53 Because there's this quote he gives about, like, everything I learned about morality comes from football.

Speaker 57 I've slightly butchered that, but uh, yeah, so you can find that on a lot of t-shirts from our sort of listener demographic.

Speaker 56 Yes, definitely.

Speaker 59 But um, I really admire Tabby just sort of sticking by the term there, Dave.

Speaker 39 No backing down.

Speaker 60 I mean, could it catch on?

Speaker 36 I mean, it sort of evokes goalscorer too much there, doesn't it?

Speaker 37 I mean, look, it's a nice clip, but it's not right, is it? Uh,

Speaker 6 goalsman, Dave. No, no, that'sn't it.
That's right in the butt.

Speaker 37 Goldsman is the other end of the pitch, if anything, That's really clear.

Speaker 42 Yeah, the last thing we need is another term for goalkeeper.

Speaker 66 We've got too many.

Speaker 24 Finally, Ange Postakoglu, Charlie, after seven games in charge of Notting Forest, has already got to the stage of addressing the media in a very meta way.

Speaker 74 If you're given time, Ange, will you turn the situation around?

Speaker 74 No, no, it's a lost cause.

Speaker 74 I mean, it's seriously,

Speaker 74 what's wrong with something being hard? Seriously, what's wrong with it? Why does everything have to be so... Why do we want everything just delivered nicely packaged?

Speaker 74 I'm sure your parents had a struggle in their life, right? And they didn't give up.

Speaker 74 You may have even been a lost cause at some point, but they didn't give up on you, right? So what I'm saying is, what I'm saying,

Speaker 74 but what I'm saying is, right, I'm not having a go at you, please.

Speaker 74 Don't take it that way, is that you know, it seems to be these days that as soon as something goes wrong, well, that's it, well, that's it, it's wrong, it's, they'll change it, break it up like

Speaker 74 everything

Speaker 74 that

Speaker 74 needs

Speaker 74 kind of

Speaker 74 something fixed is inevitably going to go through a tough time this is not unfamiliar territory for me as i said this is very and

Speaker 41 charlie um i have to say straight away i'm not entirely on board with his logic here but i i defend his right to deploy it i feel like he's the only manager now perhaps the only manager for a while who consistently goes big picture like this we we used to have arsen vago sort of going off on a we live in a world of, and that was different stuff.

Speaker 39 Here he's basically turning the media back on itself and saying, why do we do this?

Speaker 24 His general point of there always has to be one manager under pressure. Why?

Speaker 60 And I like it.

Speaker 15 I mean, it's great for our purposes.

Speaker 36 I sympathise with that aspect of it.

Speaker 60 It's not going to go down well.

Speaker 36 I don't think the press ever want them to be turned back on themselves.

Speaker 28 It's just going to go down as a weird little footnote in his naughty and voice curve.

Speaker 61 You remember that moment where he talks about the media? Oh,

Speaker 61 that was the beginning of the end for me. What was it? What's it?

Speaker 51 That point about the managers, I I mean, that's kind of Duncan Alexander's pinned tweet about Premier League. Yes.

Speaker 32 There's always got to be one Premier League crisis club, the goal is never to be it.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 33 Two big thinkers of the modern game, Ange and Angel and Duncan.

Speaker 69 Yeah, I think, yeah, I mean, he does do that.

Speaker 51 I think he does do it quite well, especially when you are the person questioning. I've been there.

Speaker 52 Like, it does kind of make you stop in your tracks a little bit.

Speaker 20 Yeah, it's good to have a thought-provoking, a genuinely thought-provoking press conference from manager Dave.

Speaker 42 It didn't feel like a desperate move from him and a sort of an attention-deflecting move.

Speaker 55 But, you know, I reiterate,

Speaker 56 it's not going to catch on with the media. They're not going to have it.

Speaker 36 Please don't tell us about ourselves, is basically the message I'm getting here.

Speaker 37 Yeah, I mean, it's not the first time he's done this sort of thing, is it, Charlie? You'll have seen it before. Probably been on the receiving end of it, I'm sure, at some point.

Speaker 37 But he sort of took it in a slightly different direction to where I thought he was going to.

Speaker 37 With the question asked when he went, you know, he was sort of the sarcastic, no, it's a lost cause, mate, sort of answer. I thought he was going to sort of say, why are you asking me this?

Speaker 37 What do you want me to say to this?

Speaker 37 But he sort of went, he went off in the direction of like, you say why is there always a manager under pressure well you are under pressure mate like you haven't won a game yet so like you know that's why he's asking the question yeah could have phrased it a bit differently perhaps Charlie has Ange Postagogroud to your memory ever uttered the phrase I'm big enough and ugly enough because I feel like I feel like if he has said it It's so funny you say that because I was thinking like that.

Speaker 51 I find that expression so funny when the deployment of that.

Speaker 65 Especially a friend of mine once used it about like their five-year-old son.

Speaker 6 I was like, is that harsh? It was sort of saying like, oh, he's the son themselves.

Speaker 62 Yeah, he was saying He's big enough and ugly enough.

Speaker 69 Yeah, I was like, you can't say that about a five-year-old.

Speaker 62 That's like, that's what grizzled managers say.

Speaker 51 You know, the point was sort of making, like, don't worry about him, he'll be fine, kind of thing.

Speaker 63 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 54 But yeah, I don't specifically remember Ange saying it, even though, yeah, it couldn't be sort of more up his street and some, you know, it's like self-deprecating, it's kind of, but also, don't worry about me, kind of thing.

Speaker 6 And you're big enough and ugly enough, aren't you, to take this?

Speaker 6 Definitely, definitely. Don't raise it yourself and as someone who's big enough and ugly enough i just wondered your take on

Speaker 68 as a man who knows a thing or two about being big and ugly no no

Speaker 36 we're taking it too literally here anyway um that's it for part one we'll be back very shortly

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Speaker 39 Welcome back to Football Clichés, a reminder that you can sign up for Dreamland, our exclusive members offering at dreamland.football cliches.com for $5.99 a month.

Speaker 55 You'll get ad-free listing of all of our episodes, two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive show, and other things as well, including a discount on our merch range, which has been launched this week, ready for pre-order online and will be available at the live shows.

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Speaker 37 Yeah, new t-shirts, new caps, mugs, get them where you can.

Speaker 37 Just on Dreamland, so last week we published uh the latest episode of Dreamland which was all about the Champions League and in that episode Charlie you remarked upon how the Champions League has given you a heightened knowledge of European geography and all the cities and everything.

Speaker 37 I had a similar moment this weekend where we were talking to one of our neighbours and um this neighbour's from Italy.

Speaker 37 We were asking, oh, where about Sicily you're from and stuff and she said oh I'm from a little place called Piamonte.

Speaker 33 And I went, oh, yeah.

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Speaker 31 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 6 Yeah, that's absolutely class.

Speaker 39 Right then, mad statistics.

Speaker 24 I am dangerously close, Charlie, to emerging from my athletic writing hiatus to do something about this.

Speaker 68 You know, the stat packification of them.

Speaker 41 Here are a couple of lovely examples.

Speaker 24 This one I completely sympathise with because it's from an account purely dedicated to Colombian football statistics.

Speaker 36 But it's a stat from last week's Champions League about the tallest goalkeepers ever to be scored past by Colombian footballers in the Champions League.

Speaker 6 Wow.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 24 yeah, Vanya Milinkovich Savich,

Speaker 24 two metres two centimetres, Fraser Forster, two metres one, and Thibault Courtois, a mere two metres.

Speaker 68 They are the top three tallest goalkeepers ever to be scored past by a a Colombian in the Champions League. Brilliant.

Speaker 33 Love it. You'll never see that, et cetera.

Speaker 34 Right, so that one I can sympathise with.

Speaker 59 This one is odd.

Speaker 24 Much was made, Dave, this weekend of Ruben Amarin reaching the 50-game landmark for Manchester United and much reflection on his record so far.

Speaker 49 A tweet came out saying that Ruben Amarin becomes the first Manchester United manager since Sir Alex Ferguson to win his 50th game at the club. A completely empty stat.

Speaker 61 So he's the first one since Fergie to win his 50th game.

Speaker 63 The actual game.

Speaker 29 The actual 50th game.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's pointless. Yeah.

Speaker 33 Oh, my God.

Speaker 6 That is bad. Where are they going with this?

Speaker 53 That's such a good example.

Speaker 44 I've spoken with these before of when there's like this compulsion to just say that if you're a journalist or a fan or whoever.

Speaker 51 Like, you know, you'll be told it and it'll just be like, oh, that's a number and that's a thing that involves a lot of Manchester United managers, so I guess that's interesting enough without a second, without a thought of like, what's this saying?

Speaker 65 And maybe people are doing it and they're like, oh, it's fine.

Speaker 54 It says nothing.

Speaker 32 It's just it's about Manchester United. People find it interesting.

Speaker 51 But it says absolutely nothing.

Speaker 5 Almost less than nothing.

Speaker 37 But that is one of these stats that is a curiosity.

Speaker 37 It's something that somebody has trivia.

Speaker 6 I don't even think it qualifies.

Speaker 37 Well, no, but in that, you know what I mean? It's attempting to be that.

Speaker 31 It could be a quiz question.

Speaker 37 Yes, but it's presented in a way as if it's something meaningful.

Speaker 24 I mean, if you were in any doubt about its statistical credibility, there was an abacus emoji at the end, Dave.

Speaker 25 Right.

Speaker 22 So just to really round it home.

Speaker 38 Okay, nice.

Speaker 71 Some calculations gone into it.

Speaker 24 But yeah, incredible stuff. A couple of absolutings for you.

Speaker 25 This came via Pie from Brentwood Town FC.

Speaker 35 Go!

Speaker 21 Max Hudson swings in another corner on an absolute sixpence.

Speaker 42 And it's finally converted by the new boy, Alejandro.

Speaker 36 I mean, on an absolute sixpence, Charlie. That's class.

Speaker 69 I like that, yeah.

Speaker 48 Really like that.

Speaker 37 Hang on a minute here, though. So Max Hudson swings in another corner on an absolute sixpence.
I don't like sixpence for corners. It's just been headed in.

Speaker 37 I think sixpence has to land on the ground for me.

Speaker 46 I'm glad you raised this.

Speaker 24 I'm very glad you raised this. But yeah,

Speaker 15 I do agree.

Speaker 19 You're planting the ball on the floor where a sixpence has been laid.

Speaker 5 And it's not stuck to somebody's head.

Speaker 62 50pm.

Speaker 6 It all works really well.

Speaker 34 But yeah, concerns shared.

Speaker 24 Elsewhere in the East Anglian Derby between Ipswich and Norwich on ITV, here is Lucy Ward on Jaden Philogene's lovely goal.

Speaker 78 Jaden Philogene, Philogene, their top scorer,

Speaker 78 has produced a goal of the highest order.

Speaker 53 But he is the man, isn't he?

Speaker 62 Philogene!

Speaker 6 What an absolute effort that is from him.

Speaker 38 I don't think I've ever heard absolute effort before. This is brilliant.

Speaker 48 Yeah.

Speaker 37 And it was. It really was.

Speaker 42 It's increasingly obvious to me, Charlotte, that there is simply no phrase that can't be enhanced with the word absolute stuck in the middle of it.

Speaker 47 Yeah, well, one of the most I laughed on one of these episodes, and I can't remember if you said it on our UFA, but Bobby Fagini said, described soccer bass as an absolute sight and that just absolutely flawed me.

Speaker 32 I mean said knowingly from him, it was amazing.

Speaker 56 Knowing or otherwise, I'm fully on board with it.

Speaker 42 But yeah, great to see its

Speaker 20 real resurgence in watchful broadcasting.

Speaker 37 Start dropping it in, yeah, in real life. It could be the new listen fair play.
Oh, what an absolute pint that is, mate.

Speaker 6 I'm sure that is said.

Speaker 24 Right, let's return to the fascinating phenomenon of Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank on Strictly. He, it seems, he emerged unscathed from the latest round, Charlie, and Instagrammed this.

Speaker 42 I don't think I've ever been as nervous as I was on Saturday night.

Speaker 24 Taking a penalty in the last minute when it's 0-0 is a piece of cake compared to this. So, you know, classic referring back to his previous existence to tie it in, always useful.

Speaker 71 Thomas Jones writes in and says, Has Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank ever taken a penalty at 0-0 before to experience those nerves?

Speaker 36 Let's fact-check this.

Speaker 20 So, I went on Transfer Marks, checked his penalty record, and the nearest I could find, the latest penalty he ever took in his career, was in May 2000, an 85th minute spot kick for Atletico Madrid against Real Oviedo.

Speaker 16 That's the highest pressure spot kick it appears he's ever taken for club or country.

Speaker 24 It was saved by goalkeeper Esteban. The game finished 2-2.

Speaker 19 Atletico were relegated seven points behind Oviedo.

Speaker 53 It was 2-2 at the time when he took it.

Speaker 6 Oh, so yeah, that's

Speaker 25 the same.

Speaker 42 So, yeah, very costly.

Speaker 55 But still got his move to Chelsea and top scorer in the Liga.

Speaker 23 So, strange season all round.

Speaker 60 Next up, this comes from TW, Dave.

Speaker 40 When did everyone start calling it San Sero, as I believe I did the other day, instead of the San Siro?

Speaker 39 Linguistically correct, I imagine, but I'm not having it. It really grates for some reason.

Speaker 19 Everyone has also been in agreement.

Speaker 60 See also new camp slash camp new.

Speaker 79 I fear I'm becoming a camp new guy, Dave.

Speaker 37 Or is it camp now?

Speaker 48 That's a line I will not cross.

Speaker 6 Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 64 The now camp.

Speaker 36 You wouldn't call it that, would you?

Speaker 37 Yeah, San Ciro, the San Ciro. I have noticed this a bit, I think, actually.

Speaker 51 Yeah, it definitely has become more...

Speaker 54 I think it's car because once you know something's wrong, it is quite hard to persevere with it,

Speaker 52 even if it's all what you used to do or what.

Speaker 30 most people were doing.

Speaker 66 And that's at the heart of all kind of mispronunciation, foreign pronunciation discourse that goes on.

Speaker 24 You know, some commentators are fully militant and said they'll go, you know, fully on board with it.

Speaker 24 The Tilsys of this world have a very nuanced position where they say, I say what I'm expected to say, which I actually think is fine.

Speaker 60 But when it comes to San Ciro, I've basically been horncastled.

Speaker 50 He keeps saying it, and I think, well, I want to be like him when it comes to Italian football.

Speaker 59 So, but yeah, San Cero to me, if you take the definite article out of it, Dave, it sounds more sophisticated.

Speaker 62 Yeah, just yeah, it's probably one of the best games at San Ciro, I would say.

Speaker 36 And it's like, yeah, just talking about it's this general whole concept rather than the place.

Speaker 37 Got to get out to San Ciro before they knock it down.

Speaker 48 Yeah, what?

Speaker 63 What, Stadium?

Speaker 37 The other two examples that come to mind,

Speaker 37 quite differing examples, but similar things to this, is MLS. You know,

Speaker 37 I think we've moved

Speaker 37 to the MLS now, haven't we? Yeah.

Speaker 42 It's very tricky not to do it, but yes, I agree.

Speaker 37 And Ukraine.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 35 And Cameroon, actually, was once the Cameroon.

Speaker 44 Which feels absurd.

Speaker 32 The Gambia.

Speaker 36 The Gambia remains, right?

Speaker 53 But there are a few. Yeah, it does.

Speaker 51 There are some other ones with definite articles as well.

Speaker 65 But yeah, MLS, MLS, I feel, has gone, has completely, like they, because I feel they were quite aggressive about that, the league itself, and successfully so.

Speaker 73 Ben Brindle writes in next Dave and says, I love this clip from the local papers Ipswich podcast, where George Hurst is asked about his buzz cut and answers in the most footballer way possible.

Speaker 80 Do you feel weird heading the ball? I feel like it must be really different when you've got a different haircut.

Speaker 81 It is, it took a bit of getting used. So I woke up this morning, you know, after getting my hair cut yesterday and completely forgot I'd had it done, to be honest.

Speaker 81 So it was a bit of a shock when I looked in the mirror this morning, but it's only a haircut and it'll grow back or it won't. It is what it is.

Speaker 80 You happy with it, though? Yeah, definitely. I scored today, so I can't complain.

Speaker 34 Is what it ising.

Speaker 29 His own haircut is.

Speaker 5 I've never heard this before.

Speaker 6 Wow.

Speaker 65 Yeah, it's the, I think it's like the complete commitment to being non-committal about everything, which is, I think, is how football is a media trained.

Speaker 54 When you actually listen to it, it's like, don't reveal too much. So it's like, that permeates any question they want to be.

Speaker 33 You know, they don't want to slam a haircut because that might seem disrespectful.

Speaker 32 But they don't want to big it up too much. You know, that might raise expectations.

Speaker 60 Don't slam it, don't hail it.

Speaker 39 Somewhere in the middle.

Speaker 6 Absolutely.

Speaker 48 They're in the line. Yeah.

Speaker 37 I thought he was going to say, yeah, look, I thought it was a wind-up.

Speaker 37 They looked in the mirror.

Speaker 31 And there it was. Well, the mirror was winding me up.

Speaker 24 But there's an extension to this, Charlie, because he says it either grow back or it won't.

Speaker 36 I mean, which is very exact.

Speaker 49 If we win, we win. If we lose, we lose.

Speaker 38 I mean, that's what I mean.

Speaker 6 Can we get into that?

Speaker 64 It'll grow back, George. I'm pretty sure.

Speaker 34 You know, don't take it for granted.

Speaker 6 my god.

Speaker 36 Um, right, finally, this came from Owen, and he says, How long does it have to be before being called an ex-England star or a former England player?

Speaker 68 Is it retirement, or how many consecutive squads do you need to have missed?

Speaker 24 I think this is really crucial, Charlie, because there are some players for whom former England international or you know, England international feels rather tenuous.

Speaker 51 Yeah, but don't you sort of all, I mean, you kind of are one or you're not while still playing.

Speaker 38 Okay, well, okay, let's refine the question.

Speaker 24 The question question is, at what point do you go from being England international to former England international? Because it certainly isn't retirement.

Speaker 36 That certainly gets added to your sort of description before you retire.

Speaker 24 So I'd know, four years?

Speaker 6 Well,

Speaker 32 it depends who's doing it, though, because like a club, if they were signing anyone who'd ever played for England, they would still be described as an England international wouldn't they?

Speaker 57 Yeah.

Speaker 63 Yeah, that's PR.

Speaker 56 But okay, you're an objective.

Speaker 62 I don't know about that.

Speaker 37 What if you're if when Ipswich signed Ashley Young, was he labelled as England star? No, he's he's still playing, but he's clearly a former England international.

Speaker 66 But it's still okay to call him an England international because, you know, he's represented his country.

Speaker 29 So I think that there's totally plausible to say that.

Speaker 37 Yeah, but it may be technically, but it's it's weird to use it in the sort of suggest that he is a current England international.

Speaker 24 But, you know, from an objective reporting perspective, Dave, what's the threshold? I how out of the picture do you have to be to become a former England international?

Speaker 43 That's the thing,'cause that you never quite know, do you?

Speaker 37 And it's even like players themselves might get asked, like Danny Welbeck might get asked, if he's in a good run of form,

Speaker 37 they might ask him, Danny, you know, have you completely given up on England? Is there still a chance? And he's and he's always going to leave the door open, isn't he?

Speaker 37 He's never going to go, nah, you know what?

Speaker 52 You can call me a former England man now.

Speaker 37 Don't worry, I think it's done.

Speaker 45 I'm googling when he last played for England because that's a really good 2018.

Speaker 31 Yeah.

Speaker 51 So, yeah, at what point?

Speaker 32 Yeah, at what point did he slash has he? I mean, obviously, Jack Greedish should be the current, like, clearly, he's not at that point yet because he's still

Speaker 6 very much.

Speaker 51 He's he's gonna, gonna yeah, he's gonna be back soon to

Speaker 33 start talking him up.

Speaker 62 I'll discuss Grealish at some point, by the way.

Speaker 16 There's something very strange going on about the Grealish sentiment just across the board, but

Speaker 63 I don't want to get into that yet.

Speaker 37 What about Eric Dyer for this question? I think he was asked about it like recently, and he said that he would want to, he would love to still be in there.

Speaker 54 Well, also, he's a 49 capman, so he's he's got that kind of unfinished business element, too.

Speaker 26 Yeah, I tell you what, I'll tell you what could be a very good arbitrary divider for this.

Speaker 24 If you go to any national team's Wikipedia page, they have their current squad, right?

Speaker 35 But they also have recent call-ups.

Speaker 59 If you're not in the recent call-up section, which seems to me completely like parameterless section, like, how do you get into that section?

Speaker 24 Like, what's the cut-off point?

Speaker 18 But if you're not in that section, I'd say that makes you a former England international.

Speaker 39 So Greedish is in there.

Speaker 18 Solanke's in there.

Speaker 61 Tony's in there. Angel Gomez is in there.

Speaker 24 I mean, all viable future England internationals, really, in some form.

Speaker 39 Taylor Harwood Bellis, Jared Branthaite, all, you know, again, all conceded.

Speaker 30 Yeah, I definitely wouldn't call those young guys former England.

Speaker 52 That would seem weird.

Speaker 25 And you can't call Kyle Walker former England because he probably won't get another call-up, though, will he?

Speaker 37 He's stuck on, I think he's only got a few more caps to get 100. He's 166 he's on.

Speaker 29 Yeah.

Speaker 37 So he would, yeah. He's similar to Eric Dyer, I suppose, but it kind of feels, it does feel, unless there's an injury crisis, it feels like he probably is done.

Speaker 25 Yeah, good question, Owen.

Speaker 71 Anyway, speaking of people who once represented their country in glorious fashion but have fallen by the wayside it's time for keys and grey corner off the top of my head that one

Speaker 20 right lovely little trio of keys and grey for you um here is keys and Grey on the trial of green cards at the Under-20 World Cup in Chile.

Speaker 61 Could go either way, this.

Speaker 82 Now, this is something you may not have noticed. And trust me, it's interesting because it's going to happen.
We know our game has been Americanized already. This is coming.

Speaker 82 Now, referee gave a penalty here.

Speaker 82 The green card was shown by the coach.

Speaker 82 in the dugout on the touchline and the green card is an appeal Andy Against the decision. Against the decision.
So you can be sure that this is coming to a league near you very shortly.

Speaker 82 It's been trialled in that tournament.

Speaker 83 I'm depressed.

Speaker 82 But this is coming. The green card, mark my words.
No.

Speaker 83 Well, you're probably right, but I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Speaker 82 But the Americanisation of our game will come.

Speaker 83 Well, it's not pretty. By the way, it's a good thing.
It's coming.

Speaker 6 We're there.

Speaker 56 The first thing I want to pick up on here, Charlie, is that it was a complete coin toss to me about how Andy Gray was going to receive this information.

Speaker 61 Because I think it's perfectly plausible that when they're sitting around in a Doha hotel bar, he's probably proposing that managers should have, you know, two appeals per game or something like that, you know, in a solution to the VAR crisis.

Speaker 56 And now he's presented with a green card, like the most superficial aspect of this.

Speaker 24 He's like, no, I can't have this.

Speaker 6 This is awful.

Speaker 51 I think that element of it made me pretty confident he wouldn't be massively in favour.

Speaker 37 There is something weird about it being a green card. We've had orange cards suggested before, blue cards, I think, have we?

Speaker 24 They haven't settled on the colour, apparently.

Speaker 15 It could be purple.

Speaker 61 Green feels. It just feels...
Immigration status is a bit weird, isn't it?

Speaker 36 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 37 Is that what Keesy was getting at with his Americanisation thing?

Speaker 34 I mean, I want to sympathise with them slightly here, Dave, because, you know,

Speaker 60 the prospect...

Speaker 26 of it hitting the mainstream and managers actually waving a green card at a referee seems massively overruled.

Speaker 24 It's a horrible spectacle. It's going to to get lampooned.

Speaker 37 I don't like green. I don't know why.
I just feel it's too associated with, you know, green, go, be a

Speaker 63 permission.

Speaker 48 Fair enough.

Speaker 55 Okay.

Speaker 38 But yeah, I think that got the reception it was.

Speaker 42 A slightly concerning focus on the Americanization aspect of it, Charlie.

Speaker 34 Do you think Keesy is anti-US?

Speaker 62 Well, I think Keese

Speaker 30 he's obviously hitched himself to the of the emerging football powers.

Speaker 31 He's very much a golf man

Speaker 52 and maybe sees it as slightly zero sum, given that America is kind of the other emerging football market.

Speaker 24 The World Cup would be back in the Gulf

Speaker 6 where he belongs.

Speaker 79 Yes.

Speaker 34 Simple one next.

Speaker 39 Here's Keason Gray on Moises Kaisedo.

Speaker 6 Look at that.

Speaker 83 He is basically everywhere. He goes everywhere.
He breaks a game up. I can't speak highly enough of him.

Speaker 82 What do they used to say about Kante? Two-thirds of the world is covered in water water and the other third is covered by Kante.

Speaker 67 He's approaching that. He is that though.

Speaker 6 I mean,

Speaker 6 if you could carbon date a football

Speaker 24 meme, Charlie, that's the exact sweet spot for what I think Keeji would think, yeah, I'm going to...

Speaker 71 unfurl this live on air.

Speaker 61 And halfway through that line, he turns to the camera as well, which is a lovely little trick of his.

Speaker 48 Yeah.

Speaker 42 Bringing the viewers in.

Speaker 79 But yeah, I mean,

Speaker 42 it's an above-average line, I'd say, in the grand scheme of football memes, isn't it?

Speaker 45 Yeah, it's funny because it's approaching the 10th anniversary of it.

Speaker 32 So it's hard to

Speaker 6 cutting edge.

Speaker 45 But it's also, I just love the way he delivers it, saying Kaisedo's approaching that as if it is an actual metric.

Speaker 48 Yeah, the Opta issues.

Speaker 33 Yeah, yeah, like there is actually,

Speaker 44 according to Opta, he has actually covered that much of the earth.

Speaker 6 And Kaisedo,

Speaker 62 yeah, if Gaisedo keeps going, he's actually tracking to become a more of the earth.

Speaker 6 Really?

Speaker 18 Right.

Speaker 24 Finally, of course, they covered Reuben Amarin's Manchester United existence before United took on Sunderland at Old Trafford on Saturday.

Speaker 25 Here is over four minutes of liquid broadcasting condensed into its purest essence.

Speaker 82 Well, you know he's toast because the Jim Reaper's given permission to those that have gone or have played for Manchester United previously and now work in the media to turn on him.

Speaker 82 And the players have no faith in it. They have little faith in the coach.
And I think that message now has finally arrived at the Jim Reaper's office. And that's why his coat is on a shaky place.

Speaker 84 I think he knows as well.

Speaker 82 I would also finally say, if it's not the system,

Speaker 82 change the system.

Speaker 82 Change the system. Be flexible and intelligent enough to understand that what you've served up in your time there has not worked.

Speaker 83 He's very stubborn about what he plays and what he thinks.

Speaker 84 Fergus changed his system. He would have deployed three.

Speaker 84 I know he did.

Speaker 83 If you get beat today and he goes, he will go thinking, right, at least I didn't destroy my principles. I didn't throw them into the bin.

Speaker 84 But you may come to the pressure of change and daft.

Speaker 82 And I was the first to say it. I refer back to what I did say some three months ago.
I think he's working at the moment to maneuver himself into a position to get the sack.

Speaker 20 I mean, a demonstration of their chemistry more than anything, Charlie.

Speaker 71 But my favourite...

Speaker 42 One of my favourite moments there was the deployment of the phrase, coat is on a shaky peg, which is a really classy way of saying a manager's imperiled.

Speaker 56 So that was cool.

Speaker 40 But my favourite moment there was a great example of how they dovetail as broadcasters and without it actually being that professional.

Speaker 79 Gray will be talking, and then Keesy will just slide in with his own observation and then somehow find a gap, like a number 10 finding a pocket of space to unleash that final syllable.

Speaker 6 Daft. And it just finds the space.

Speaker 41 And Gray doesn't miss a beep.

Speaker 6 Makes himself look daft.

Speaker 48 Daft.

Speaker 63 It's like he waits for it and it goes daft.

Speaker 64 And just finds the gap.

Speaker 15 And that, you can't replicate that.

Speaker 14 That's 40 years of broadcasting experience.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 47 Yeah, I love as well that he's allowed to use his blog language just on a broad, you know, he's repeated, exclusively calling him the Jim Reaper.

Speaker 62 Yeah.

Speaker 62 Imagine Dave Jones

Speaker 32 doing that or something.

Speaker 47 Like the outcry, like, we apologize unreservedly to Manchester United.

Speaker 44 It was a moment of action.

Speaker 54 He'd probably be banned or maybe even sacked.

Speaker 58 It would be like a national scandal.

Speaker 47 You can't be so disrespectful.

Speaker 64 You'd have to give his apology like Red Help did.

Speaker 6 Which was,

Speaker 56 by the way, stuff.

Speaker 31 Amazing. Yeah.

Speaker 41 But yeah, maybe you just, if you're an overseas broadcaster, you're allowed that distance, Dave. You're allowed to do that.

Speaker 24 I mean, obviously, Keesy's a completely special case.

Speaker 66 He runs everything, but

Speaker 60 it looks so he's got some power over there.

Speaker 37 Yeah, he can say what he likes. To the backing of that aircon.
Anything goes.

Speaker 56 They won't hear it. The aircon's very loud.

Speaker 36 Great stuff. Thanks to you, Charlie Equisher.

Speaker 68 Thank you. Thanks to you, David Walker.

Speaker 24 Thank you. Thanks to everyone for listening.

Speaker 35 We'll be back on Thursday.

Speaker 18 Cardiff, see you Wednesday night.

Speaker 8 This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.

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