Blown-open title races, punditspeak on the terraces & Woltemade's weird penalty

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I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like.

Is Gascoigne gonna have a crack?

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Oh, I see!

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He launched himself six feet into the crowd and Kung Fu kicked a supporter who was

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Break up the music!

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This nation is going to dance all night!

Is the title race eligible to be blown open yet?

Possible pundit speak in the stands at Old Trafford.

Martin Keown mixes up his sporting idioms, the number one purveyor of commentary vibrato, Nick Voltamar does weird penalty, Ange Postakoglu goes big picture with the press pack, fact-checking Jimmy Floyd Hasselbanks' crossover chat on Strictly, the trigger point for becoming a former England international, and Keys and Grey on green cards.

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This is Football Clichés.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Football Clichés.

I'm Adam Hurry.

This is the adjudication panel.

Joining me is Charlie Eccleshare.

How are you doing?

Very well, thank you.

This podcast will go out after the first leg of the UK and Ireland Football Clichés live tour in Brighton.

Should we just assume that we spoke well in Brighton?

I think so, yeah.

I don't attempt fate, though.

Let's not, yeah, let's not go overboard.

It was fine.

It happened.

Yeah, no, no, it was good, I promise.

Alongside you is David Walker, who I hope is a lot more optimistic about things.

Oh, yeah, big time.

First show of the tour.

Looking forward to it.

We're ready.

Yeah, we've addressed it both in future and past tense now.

And we'll also be in Cardiff at the Glee Club on Wednesday night for all the shows.

Door 6.30, show 7.30.

We'll finish about 9:30 and straight to the boozer.

Speaking of Cardiff Boozers, nominations for the Packet, the Eli Jenkins, the nearby Spoons all seem very viable candidates.

If you want to join us on this tour, go to tickets.football clichés.com and you'll see all the venues there.

Before we adjudication panel, something remarkable happened yesterday to me actually.

So I was

on the way to Wimbledon Commons extensions for Ribblesdale Rovers, which is really far away and hard to get to if you're not driving.

And I was on the bus with the athletics Jay Harris, who's also our captain, and our goalkeeper Brad.

We're sitting there just having a chat, as you do.

And then a woman got on the bus and proceeded to launch into an incredible religious sermon.

Like, she gave it both barrels.

She was...

giving it everything.

She was like touching us on the knee, blessing us.

She correctly deduced that I wasn't married, but then I did, I did.

Because all the stagdos are you go to and stuff.

I invited her to the wedding next year.

But she was singing, she was giving everything, and it went on for ages to the point where the sort of five or six people on the bus were all we're all sort of looking at each other, going,

What do we do here?

Do we just let her get on with it?

Like, should we engage?

Should we just not have a word?

Yeah, it was like, honestly, you felt like you were in like a gospel church in the front pew.

And then, after she'd been going for about five or so minutes, she paused for breath.

The bus stopped.

A bloke who was sitting opposite us and had eyed us a few times got up and he just went, love the pod, Dave, and got off the bus.

I was hoping for a listened fair play there.

Well, I did say to him, cheers, mate, I said, which was true, we'd just seen a live For My Sins Corner because she uttered the immortal phrase several times in the most appropriate and true context.

So, but broadly, a positive message, then.

It's not that, you know, we're all going to hell,

the world's going to end.

It was just like, you know, praise God.

No, I think it was all positive.

And thanks to her blessing, Ribblesdale Rovers won 2-0.

Lovely.

There we go.

Hira, she's

like, Eileen Drew, Drury, Drury.

Let's not make light of it, of the Lord.

Right, let's kick off the adjudication panel with this from Chris Newman.

Charlie says, at the end of the Chelsea versus Liverpool game, Gary Neville claimed that Liverpool loss has blown the title race wide open.

I'm not having that after only seven games.

How close to the end of the season, or after how many games, can it be claimed the title race has been blown wide open?

Can we safely assume that it hasn't been formed enough yet to be blown open?

Yeah, or, I mean, there is a world in which, had Liverpool won their, had Liverpool been Palace the week before, and so they'd have won their first six games, and everyone then would have basically been saying Liverpool had won the title, as ludicrous as that sounds, had they then lost and shown like first chinks of vulnerability, like we might have a title race on our hands kind of thing.

I still think it would have been premature.

This feels because it was already, I mean, they only had a two-point lead going into the weekend after six games.

But it's a complicated one to actually kind of pin down when you can start saying it or how many points there need to be as a gap.

But I think you typically...

It's a bigger lead being brought down to something that feels kind of within reach, you know, so even a sort of five-point lead becoming becoming a two-point one or something like that.

It's interesting to me, Dave, straight away that Charlie's reading this as a one-team dominance being being brought back into a two- or three-horse race rather than a two- or three-horse race being opened up into a potential bigger scenario.

Either way, it feels like a post-Christmas thing for me, Dave.

This isn't a first half of the season's remit.

Yeah, this is very early.

And interestingly, Arsenal have gone odds-on favourites for the title now, which again feels early.

I think just short odds-on favourites.

I think because a couple of tricky games that they've had against the big teams have come through and then they're now top.

So yeah, it is early, definitely early.

I think we had something similar last season, didn't we?

There's this sort of the appetite from Sky to whenever there's a sniff of a title race being blown wide open,

we have to get into that.

But I mean, also, I think the Arsenal thing sort of plays into the narrative because you've been so close.

And yet so far in the last few seasons, the fact that they're now there, top of the league, when when a few weeks ago it felt like maybe they weren't going to be, Liverpool are going to walk it again.

I think they're going to win it.

I think they're going to win it purely for narrative reasons.

If a script writer were in charge of Arsenal's destiny, Charlie, they would script Arsenal to win the title now.

They would do it now.

Why do you think that?

Just because they've come close.

Throw us up

in a row.

Which they did win it last time they came three runners up three times a row.

Yeah, they're the only team to have done it.

Yeah, I think I feel like the Arsenal narrative is ripening this season.

You should be the script writer, really, Charlie, in this scenario.

You're the best man on the job.

Yeah, I think I'd defer to my brother who's an actual script writer.

I mean, it would...

Yeah, exactly.

Just there in a fact-checking capacity.

I mean, if you were a scriptwriter, though, would you...

You might think, oh, this has happened almost in a very similar way before.

I might go for something a little more outlandish than sort of just hard

in 2002.

Yeah, I guess not.

I suppose it's just, yeah, a remake, a kind of heritage story.

Well, I'm glad we covered who we think will win the Premier League this season.

Good to get that sincere chat out of the way.

Right, moving on.

This is from a compilation video of Senna Laman's Manchester United debut, their goalkeeper, by the way.

It's from fan shot footage from the stands, and it begins with him at full stretch to keep out a long-range Sunderland effort.

Nicole Chatras Saglani writes in, David says, I think the guy in clip one was going to say he's got the freedom of old Trafford.

Surely that's not normal fan discourse.

Commentators slash pundits only.

Yes.

I really want this to be true.

I want it to be true so much.

I think he was going to say that, yeah.

There's no other alternative, right?

Lamons then makes the save, so he has to sort of stop halfway through.

But

the only other option is he's going to go postcode or Manchester or that would be even better.

But I mean, ostensibly not prohibited, I would say, Charlie, for a fan to use this phrase.

But when you're actually at the place itself in real time I don't like it I think that's what makes it weirder he's got the freedom of old Trafford where we are right now

it is an odd thing for your mind to turn to in that moment yeah

and and as evidenced by that clip too long as well there's too much to get out there in that scenario he's got the freedom of old traffic

I mean you really would it's like one of those tests you really would have to have the freedom of old trafford for a fan to be able to get that out comfortably shouldn't it should have got there in a freedom of old trafford that is quite a lot of time yeah he should have said it while the player had the possession of the ball.

That would have given him more time.

Here's a very straightforward one for you.

Here's Martin Keown on TNT after Arsenal's midweek win over Olympiakos.

And you see the game out, and then Saka gets the winning goal.

So, you know, if it was a game of chess, then it's game-set and match to Arsenal in the way that they set out.

Got a bit tricky in the middle.

I mean, the appeal of this is very basic, Charlie.

It's the sort of butchered sound bite that belongs in a gift book of the funniest footy points, doesn't it?

I mean, it's perfectly formed in that sense.

Did you see Keown recently in the same sort of format, in that kind of TNT, sort of on-pitch studio, informal vibe?

And they had Noni Madweke came over.

It was after the forest game.

And he said something was like, I have to say, I thought you were really selfish.

I always thought you were a really selfish player before, but you're not, you're not like you're really helping the team.

It was so weird.

And Noni was sort of like, you just don't really expect that sort of grilling.

You know, it's normally like light stuff, just like, oh, you've been so great since coming in.

And he was a bit like, uh, yeah, I mean, I don't think I'm selfish.

Just chill out, Martin.

it was so intense this all feeds into the just the growing concept that he's one of the most intense men yeah in football broadcasting how far are we dave from a dreamland episode all about martin keown i think i feel like we need a couple more months of content and then we're right there i think it's i think it's ripe for us he's getting there because as this clip shows he he's now starting to add to his normal sort of intense punditry almost stuart pierce-esque weird phrasing and and stuff as well Um, so it's all in there, yeah.

Yeah, there are some amazing ones from back in the days.

Do you remember that one he did about Vengo?

And he's like, you know, he thinks retirement is for old people.

Old people die just suddenly shattered.

It's so weird.

It's like, what?

Like, where has this come from?

I've got an addiction to life, if anything.

Yeah, he's delighted that one.

Also, like, we're doing it.

Yeah, him saying, like, it should be pronounced Keowen is another, like, quite interesting little quirk.

Like, where does that come from?

Oh, God.

Anyway, right, let's return to the lovely concept of musical commentary and a real new candidate in this growing field the commentary vibrato of mike minet he was on commentary duty last week for chirat versus real madrid and monaco versus manchester city

dias

it is five

calls it back for rinders rinders goes for it

I mean,

first one had the kind of anticipatory aspect to it.

The second one just felt genuinely nervous, Charlie.

It was very strange.

Yeah,

it is that kind of like, ooh,

it's going to happen.

Is it an effective device day for a commentator?

I mean, there are so many situations in attacking passages of play that it feels like it is quite appropriate because, as I say,

it's a kind of provisional state, isn't it?

Yeah, I'm not sure you should go to the well too often with it.

Right.

Unless you really want to sort of make it your calling card.

I think he's out vibrato in Chris Wise at the moment.

So one of them's got to really step up at the moment.

Should have a commentator's choir, really, shouldn't we?

Christmas charity concert.

Would listen.

Drury doing the solo.

I've taken the liberty of editing them together a little bit more tightly, and I think they go together superbly.

Rhinders!

Brahim Diaz!

Rhinders!

Brahe Diaz!

Rinders!

Brahe Diaz!

That's nice.

Particularly, is it makes sound as he's like saying Brahim?

There's like a particular flourish there.

Yeah.

Somebody's got to put that to music.

Yeah.

There's got to be a listener out there who can have some fun with that.

Are you born with this, Dave, or do you have to is it taught?

Nobody knows.

Right.

An observation from the weekend.

Charlie, I genuinely like things in football in a really subtle way that I've never seen before.

And Nick Voltamada's penalty for Newcastle against Notting Forest was genuinely weird.

I've never seen anything like it.

I've never seen a penalty clipped into the top corner like that.

I mean, you see...

Plenty of penalties dispatched into the top corner with power, perhaps even sort of placed deliberately, but that was kind of...

He sort of clipped it across his body really tightly.

It was amazing.

Yeah.

It makes you feel a bit nervous, doesn't it?

Because he and it's it goes so high.

Yeah.

It looks it's it's weird to sort of get get under it that much, but in a really controlled

way.

You see someone get under it, you're like, oh god, that's going.

Yeah.

That's going miles over.

And also because he's so tall, he sort of lurched over the ball.

You know, it sort of towers over it and he sort of had, he sort of has to dig it out from underneath him because he's so big.

But he also did the sort of Ivan Tony-esque, I'm going to look directly at the goalkeeper, not the ball thing.

And normally...

Oh, that probably explains it.

Normally, when you do that, though, the only thing you really can do is sort of side foot it because you want to be sure of your technique.

So to do a no-look, not look at the ball penalty and clip it into the top corner.

Well, that's the thing.

Yeah, he kind of used his laces rather than a side foot.

So he kind of sort of dragged his foot across the turf.

I mean, I'm focusing, Charlie, on how weird it was, but I think it actually might be a really effective way.

I think there's a big margin for error.

I don't think that would go wide.

You potentially could go go over, but I think it's over of this.

The over is the other thing.

Yeah, I remember on that topic of like singing penalty you've not seen before.

I remember Spurs beat Brighton at home in February 2024, and Pascal Gross took a penalty.

It felt like you've got, he just sort of like cut across it into the corner in the most deliberate, technically accomplished way.

And it was like, wow.

Yeah, these players have got really, really good.

You know, when people do things that it looks like they're sort of just in training, kind of, just experimenting with penalties.

And Baltimore had a bit of that as well.

It was very training ground, actually, just like he was mucking about.

Yeah, incredibly casual.

Right, next up, this came from Anthony Groot.

He says, I came across this innovative term for a goalkeeper on the latest subscriber episode of your goal hanger stablemates.

The rest is history.

And I immediately thought it would be worth a mention on the pod.

Historian Dominic Sandbrook and his co-presenter Tabby Sirat are discussing 20th-century French author Albert Camus and his youth as a goalkeeper in Algiers when Tabby comes out with this superb piece of vocabulary.

Yeah, everyone makes a lot of

his association with football.

Didn't he play in goal?

Because he was kind of too sickly and weedy to be involved in the rough and tumble.

I actually had a Camus football shirt, which I used to play in in the 1990s.

So people can read into that while they will, but I didn't play in goal.

I was going to say, I was going to say, I didn't think you were a goalsman.

A goalsman?

Did you say a goalsman?

Yeah.

Wow.

Tabby.

You've actually been to football matches and you believe the word is a goalsman?

Yeah, a goalsman.

Yeah.

Okay, brilliant.

All true footballers know that.

That's the single best thing you've said

ever since you joined Goal Hanger.

So, Camille is a bright, precocious goalsman.

Oh, the synergy here, Dave.

It's wonderful.

Here we go.

More of this.

Yeah, very nice.

Should get Dominic Sandbrook on and Tabby by the looks of it.

I reckon a high proportion of our listeners will have had an Albert Camus football t-shirt.

I was going to say

right at the top of the list.

Is it philosophy football?

Is it that ranger t-shirts?

Because there's this quote he gives about, like, everything I learned about morality comes from football.

I've slightly butchered that, but uh, yeah, so you can find that on a lot of t-shirts from our sort of listener demographic.

Yes, definitely.

But um, I really admire Tabby just sort of sticking by the term there, Dave.

No backing down.

I mean, could it catch on?

I mean, it sort of evokes goalscorer too much there, doesn't it?

I mean, look, it's a nice clip, but it's not right, is it?

Uh,

goalsman, Dave.

No, no, that'sn't it.

That's right in the butt.

Goldsman is the other end of the pitch, if anything, That's really clear.

Yeah, the last thing we need is another term for goalkeeper.

We've got too many.

Finally, Ange Postakoglu, Charlie, after seven games in charge of Notting Forest, has already got to the stage of addressing the media in a very meta way.

If you're given time, Ange, will you turn the situation around?

No, no, it's a lost cause.

I mean, it's seriously,

what's wrong with something being hard?

Seriously, what's wrong with it?

Why does everything have to be so...

Why do we want everything just delivered nicely packaged?

I'm sure your parents had a struggle in their life, right?

And they didn't give up.

You may have even been a lost cause at some point, but they didn't give up on you, right?

So what I'm saying is, what I'm saying,

but what I'm saying is, right, I'm not having a go at you, please.

Don't take it that way, is that you know, it seems to be these days that as soon as something goes wrong, well, that's it, well, that's it, it's wrong, it's, they'll change it, break it up like

everything

that

needs

kind of

something fixed is inevitably going to go through a tough time this is not unfamiliar territory for me as i said this is very and

charlie um i have to say straight away i'm not entirely on board with his logic here but i i defend his right to deploy it i feel like he's the only manager now perhaps the only manager for a while who consistently goes big picture like this we we used to have arsen vago sort of going off on a we live in a world of, and that was different stuff.

Here he's basically turning the media back on itself and saying, why do we do this?

His general point of there always has to be one manager under pressure.

Why?

And I like it.

I mean, it's great for our purposes.

I sympathise with that aspect of it.

It's not going to go down well.

I don't think the press ever want them to be turned back on themselves.

It's just going to go down as a weird little footnote in his naughty and voice curve.

You remember that moment where he talks about the media?

Oh,

that was the beginning of the end for me.

What was it?

What's it?

That point about the managers, I I mean, that's kind of Duncan Alexander's pinned tweet about Premier League.

Yes.

There's always got to be one Premier League crisis club, the goal is never to be it.

Yeah.

Two big thinkers of the modern game, Ange and Angel and Duncan.

Yeah, I think, yeah, I mean, he does do that.

I think he does do it quite well, especially when you are the person questioning.

I've been there.

Like, it does kind of make you stop in your tracks a little bit.

Yeah, it's good to have a thought-provoking, a genuinely thought-provoking press conference from manager Dave.

It didn't feel like a desperate move from him and a sort of an attention-deflecting move.

But, you know, I reiterate,

it's not going to catch on with the media.

They're not going to have it.

Please don't tell us about ourselves, is basically the message I'm getting here.

Yeah, I mean, it's not the first time he's done this sort of thing, is it, Charlie?

You'll have seen it before.

Probably been on the receiving end of it, I'm sure, at some point.

But he sort of took it in a slightly different direction to where I thought he was going to.

With the question asked when he went, you know, he was sort of the sarcastic, no, it's a lost cause, mate, sort of answer.

I thought he was going to sort of say, why are you asking me this?

What do you want me to say to this?

But he sort of went, he went off in the direction of like, you say why is there always a manager under pressure well you are under pressure mate like you haven't won a game yet so like you know that's why he's asking the question yeah could have phrased it a bit differently perhaps Charlie has Ange Postagogroud to your memory ever uttered the phrase I'm big enough and ugly enough because I feel like I feel like if he has said it It's so funny you say that because I was thinking like that.

I find that expression so funny when the deployment of that.

Especially a friend of mine once used it about like their five-year-old son.

I was like, is that harsh?

It was sort of saying like, oh, he's the son themselves.

Yeah, he was saying He's big enough and ugly enough.

Yeah, I was like, you can't say that about a five-year-old.

That's like, that's what grizzled managers say.

You know, the point was sort of making, like, don't worry about him, he'll be fine, kind of thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But yeah, I don't specifically remember Ange saying it, even though, yeah, it couldn't be sort of more up his street and some, you know, it's like self-deprecating, it's kind of, but also, don't worry about me, kind of thing.

And you're big enough and ugly enough, aren't you, to take this?

Definitely, definitely.

Don't raise it yourself and as someone who's big enough and ugly enough i just wondered your take on

as a man who knows a thing or two about being big and ugly no no

we're taking it too literally here anyway um that's it for part one we'll be back very shortly

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Oh, look at that!

That is wonderful!

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You'll get ad-free listing of all of our episodes, two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive show, and other things as well, including a discount on our merch range, which has been launched this week, ready for pre-order online and will be available at the live shows.

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Yeah, new t-shirts, new caps, mugs, get them where you can.

Just on Dreamland, so last week we published uh the latest episode of Dreamland which was all about the Champions League and in that episode Charlie you remarked upon how the Champions League has given you a heightened knowledge of European geography and all the cities and everything.

I had a similar moment this weekend where we were talking to one of our neighbours and um this neighbour's from Italy.

We were asking, oh, where about Sicily you're from and stuff and she said oh I'm from a little place called Piamonte.

And I went, oh, yeah.

Neutrin, is it?

Italy, my eyes would have been lighting up.

That is a deep cut.

Pro-Evo in Blue My Johnson.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, that's absolutely class.

Right then, mad statistics.

I am dangerously close, Charlie, to emerging from my athletic writing hiatus to do something about this.

You know, the stat packification of them.

Here are a couple of lovely examples.

This one I completely sympathise with because it's from an account purely dedicated to Colombian football statistics.

But it's a stat from last week's Champions League about the tallest goalkeepers ever to be scored past by Colombian footballers in the Champions League.

Wow.

So

yeah, Vanya Milinkovich Savich,

two metres two centimetres, Fraser Forster, two metres one, and Thibault Courtois, a mere two metres.

They are the top three tallest goalkeepers ever to be scored past by a a Colombian in the Champions League.

Brilliant.

Love it.

You'll never see that, et cetera.

Right, so that one I can sympathise with.

This one is odd.

Much was made, Dave, this weekend of Ruben Amarin reaching the 50-game landmark for Manchester United and much reflection on his record so far.

A tweet came out saying that Ruben Amarin becomes the first Manchester United manager since Sir Alex Ferguson to win his 50th game at the club.

A completely empty stat.

So he's the first one since Fergie to win his 50th game.

The actual game.

The actual 50th game.

Yeah, it's pointless.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

That is bad.

Where are they going with this?

That's such a good example.

I've spoken with these before of when there's like this compulsion to just say that if you're a journalist or a fan or whoever.

Like, you know, you'll be told it and it'll just be like, oh, that's a number and that's a thing that involves a lot of Manchester United managers, so I guess that's interesting enough without a second, without a thought of like, what's this saying?

And maybe people are doing it and they're like, oh, it's fine.

It says nothing.

It's just it's about Manchester United.

People find it interesting.

But it says absolutely nothing.

Almost less than nothing.

But that is one of these stats that is a curiosity.

It's something that somebody has trivia.

I don't even think it qualifies.

Well, no, but in that, you know what I mean?

It's attempting to be that.

It could be a quiz question.

Yes, but it's presented in a way as if it's something meaningful.

I mean, if you were in any doubt about its statistical credibility, there was an abacus emoji at the end, Dave.

Right.

So just to really round it home.

Okay, nice.

Some calculations gone into it.

But yeah, incredible stuff.

A couple of absolutings for you.

This came via Pie from Brentwood Town FC.

Go!

Max Hudson swings in another corner on an absolute sixpence.

And it's finally converted by the new boy, Alejandro.

I mean, on an absolute sixpence, Charlie.

That's class.

I like that, yeah.

Really like that.

Hang on a minute here, though.

So Max Hudson swings in another corner on an absolute sixpence.

I don't like sixpence for corners.

It's just been headed in.

I think sixpence has to land on the ground for me.

I'm glad you raised this.

I'm very glad you raised this.

But yeah,

I do agree.

You're planting the ball on the floor where a sixpence has been laid.

And it's not stuck to somebody's head.

50pm.

It all works really well.

But yeah, concerns shared.

Elsewhere in the East Anglian Derby between Ipswich and Norwich on ITV, here is Lucy Ward on Jaden Philogene's lovely goal.

Jaden Philogene, Philogene, their top scorer,

has produced a goal of the highest order.

But he is the man, isn't he?

Philogene!

What an absolute effort that is from him.

I don't think I've ever heard absolute effort before.

This is brilliant.

Yeah.

And it was.

It really was.

It's increasingly obvious to me, Charlotte, that there is simply no phrase that can't be enhanced with the word absolute stuck in the middle of it.

Yeah, well, one of the most I laughed on one of these episodes, and I can't remember if you said it on our UFA, but Bobby Fagini said, described soccer bass as an absolute sight and that just absolutely flawed me.

I mean said knowingly from him, it was amazing.

Knowing or otherwise, I'm fully on board with it.

But yeah, great to see its

real resurgence in watchful broadcasting.

Start dropping it in, yeah, in real life.

It could be the new listen fair play.

Oh, what an absolute pint that is, mate.

I'm sure that is said.

Right, let's return to the fascinating phenomenon of Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank on Strictly.

He, it seems, he emerged unscathed from the latest round, Charlie, and Instagrammed this.

I don't think I've ever been as nervous as I was on Saturday night.

Taking a penalty in the last minute when it's 0-0 is a piece of cake compared to this.

So, you know, classic referring back to his previous existence to tie it in, always useful.

Thomas Jones writes in and says, Has Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank ever taken a penalty at 0-0 before to experience those nerves?

Let's fact-check this.

So, I went on Transfer Marks, checked his penalty record, and the nearest I could find, the latest penalty he ever took in his career, was in May 2000, an 85th minute spot kick for Atletico Madrid against Real Oviedo.

That's the highest pressure spot kick it appears he's ever taken for club or country.

It was saved by goalkeeper Esteban.

The game finished 2-2.

Atletico were relegated seven points behind Oviedo.

It was 2-2 at the time when he took it.

Oh, so yeah, that's

the same.

So, yeah, very costly.

But still got his move to Chelsea and top scorer in the Liga.

So, strange season all round.

Next up, this comes from TW, Dave.

When did everyone start calling it San Sero, as I believe I did the other day, instead of the San Siro?

Linguistically correct, I imagine, but I'm not having it.

It really grates for some reason.

Everyone has also been in agreement.

See also new camp slash camp new.

I fear I'm becoming a camp new guy, Dave.

Or is it camp now?

That's a line I will not cross.

Okay.

Yeah.

The now camp.

You wouldn't call it that, would you?

Yeah, San Ciro, the San Ciro.

I have noticed this a bit, I think, actually.

Yeah, it definitely has become more...

I think it's car because once you know something's wrong, it is quite hard to persevere with it,

even if it's all what you used to do or what.

most people were doing.

And that's at the heart of all kind of mispronunciation, foreign pronunciation discourse that goes on.

You know, some commentators are fully militant and said they'll go, you know, fully on board with it.

The Tilsys of this world have a very nuanced position where they say, I say what I'm expected to say, which I actually think is fine.

But when it comes to San Ciro, I've basically been horncastled.

He keeps saying it, and I think, well, I want to be like him when it comes to Italian football.

So, but yeah, San Cero to me, if you take the definite article out of it, Dave, it sounds more sophisticated.

Yeah, just yeah, it's probably one of the best games at San Ciro, I would say.

And it's like, yeah, just talking about it's this general whole concept rather than the place.

Got to get out to San Ciro before they knock it down.

Yeah, what?

What, Stadium?

The other two examples that come to mind,

quite differing examples, but similar things to this, is MLS.

You know,

I think we've moved

to the MLS now, haven't we?

Yeah.

It's very tricky not to do it, but yes, I agree.

And Ukraine.

Yeah.

And Cameroon, actually, was once the Cameroon.

Which feels absurd.

The Gambia.

The Gambia remains, right?

But there are a few.

Yeah, it does.

There are some other ones with definite articles as well.

But yeah, MLS, MLS, I feel, has gone, has completely, like they, because I feel they were quite aggressive about that, the league itself, and successfully so.

Ben Brindle writes in next Dave and says, I love this clip from the local papers Ipswich podcast, where George Hurst is asked about his buzz cut and answers in the most footballer way possible.

Do you feel weird heading the ball?

I feel like it must be really different when you've got a different haircut.

It is, it took a bit of getting used.

So I woke up this morning, you know, after getting my hair cut yesterday and completely forgot I'd had it done, to be honest.

So it was a bit of a shock when I looked in the mirror this morning, but it's only a haircut and it'll grow back or it won't.

It is what it is.

You happy with it, though?

Yeah, definitely.

I scored today, so I can't complain.

Is what it ising.

His own haircut is.

I've never heard this before.

Wow.

Yeah, it's the, I think it's like the complete commitment to being non-committal about everything, which is, I think, is how football is a media trained.

When you actually listen to it, it's like, don't reveal too much.

So it's like, that permeates any question they want to be.

You know, they don't want to slam a haircut because that might seem disrespectful.

But they don't want to big it up too much.

You know, that might raise expectations.

Don't slam it, don't hail it.

Somewhere in the middle.

Absolutely.

They're in the line.

Yeah.

I thought he was going to say, yeah, look, I thought it was a wind-up.

They looked in the mirror.

And there it was.

Well, the mirror was winding me up.

But there's an extension to this, Charlie, because he says it either grow back or it won't.

I mean, which is very exact.

If we win, we win.

If we lose, we lose.

I mean, that's what I mean.

Can we get into that?

It'll grow back, George.

I'm pretty sure.

You know, don't take it for granted.

my god.

Um, right, finally, this came from Owen, and he says, How long does it have to be before being called an ex-England star or a former England player?

Is it retirement, or how many consecutive squads do you need to have missed?

I think this is really crucial, Charlie, because there are some players for whom former England international or you know, England international feels rather tenuous.

Yeah, but don't you sort of all, I mean, you kind of are one or you're not while still playing.

Okay, well, okay, let's refine the question.

The question question is, at what point do you go from being England international to former England international?

Because it certainly isn't retirement.

That certainly gets added to your sort of description before you retire.

So I'd know, four years?

Well,

it depends who's doing it, though, because like a club, if they were signing anyone who'd ever played for England, they would still be described as an England international wouldn't they?

Yeah.

Yeah, that's PR.

But okay, you're an objective.

I don't know about that.

What if you're if when Ipswich signed Ashley Young, was he labelled as England star?

No, he's he's still playing, but he's clearly a former England international.

But it's still okay to call him an England international because, you know, he's represented his country.

So I think that there's totally plausible to say that.

Yeah, but it may be technically, but it's it's weird to use it in the sort of suggest that he is a current England international.

But, you know, from an objective reporting perspective, Dave, what's the threshold?

I how out of the picture do you have to be to become a former England international?

That's the thing,'cause that you never quite know, do you?

And it's even like players themselves might get asked, like Danny Welbeck might get asked, if he's in a good run of form,

they might ask him, Danny, you know, have you completely given up on England?

Is there still a chance?

And he's and he's always going to leave the door open, isn't he?

He's never going to go, nah, you know what?

You can call me a former England man now.

Don't worry, I think it's done.

I'm googling when he last played for England because that's a really good 2018.

Yeah.

So, yeah, at what point?

Yeah, at what point did he slash has he?

I mean, obviously, Jack Greedish should be the current, like, clearly, he's not at that point yet because he's still

very much.

He's he's gonna, gonna yeah, he's gonna be back soon to

start talking him up.

I'll discuss Grealish at some point, by the way.

There's something very strange going on about the Grealish sentiment just across the board, but

I don't want to get into that yet.

What about Eric Dyer for this question?

I think he was asked about it like recently, and he said that he would want to, he would love to still be in there.

Well, also, he's a 49 capman, so he's he's got that kind of unfinished business element, too.

Yeah, I tell you what, I'll tell you what could be a very good arbitrary divider for this.

If you go to any national team's Wikipedia page, they have their current squad, right?

But they also have recent call-ups.

If you're not in the recent call-up section, which seems to me completely like parameterless section, like, how do you get into that section?

Like, what's the cut-off point?

But if you're not in that section, I'd say that makes you a former England international.

So Greedish is in there.

Solanke's in there.

Tony's in there.

Angel Gomez is in there.

I mean, all viable future England internationals, really, in some form.

Taylor Harwood Bellis, Jared Branthaite, all, you know, again, all conceded.

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't call those young guys former England.

That would seem weird.

And you can't call Kyle Walker former England because he probably won't get another call-up, though, will he?

He's stuck on, I think he's only got a few more caps to get 100.

He's 166 he's on.

Yeah.

So he would, yeah.

He's similar to Eric Dyer, I suppose, but it kind of feels, it does feel, unless there's an injury crisis, it feels like he probably is done.

Yeah, good question, Owen.

Anyway, speaking of people who once represented their country in glorious fashion but have fallen by the wayside it's time for keys and grey corner off the top of my head that one

right lovely little trio of keys and grey for you um here is keys and Grey on the trial of green cards at the Under-20 World Cup in Chile.

Could go either way, this.

Now, this is something you may not have noticed.

And trust me, it's interesting because it's going to happen.

We know our game has been Americanized already.

This is coming.

Now, referee gave a penalty here.

The green card was shown by the coach.

in the dugout on the touchline and the green card is an appeal Andy Against the decision.

Against the decision.

So you can be sure that this is coming to a league near you very shortly.

It's been trialled in that tournament.

I'm depressed.

But this is coming.

The green card, mark my words.

No.

Well, you're probably right, but I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

But the Americanisation of our game will come.

Well, it's not pretty.

By the way, it's a good thing.

It's coming.

We're there.

The first thing I want to pick up on here, Charlie, is that it was a complete coin toss to me about how Andy Gray was going to receive this information.

Because I think it's perfectly plausible that when they're sitting around in a Doha hotel bar, he's probably proposing that managers should have, you know, two appeals per game or something like that, you know, in a solution to the VAR crisis.

And now he's presented with a green card, like the most superficial aspect of this.

He's like, no, I can't have this.

This is awful.

I think that element of it made me pretty confident he wouldn't be massively in favour.

There is something weird about it being a green card.

We've had orange cards suggested before, blue cards, I think, have we?

They haven't settled on the colour, apparently.

It could be purple.

Green feels.

It just feels...

Immigration status is a bit weird, isn't it?

Yeah, exactly.

Is that what Keesy was getting at with his Americanisation thing?

I mean, I want to sympathise with them slightly here, Dave, because, you know,

the prospect...

of it hitting the mainstream and managers actually waving a green card at a referee seems massively overruled.

It's a horrible spectacle.

It's going to to get lampooned.

I don't like green.

I don't know why.

I just feel it's too associated with, you know, green, go, be a

permission.

Fair enough.

Okay.

But yeah, I think that got the reception it was.

A slightly concerning focus on the Americanization aspect of it, Charlie.

Do you think Keesy is anti-US?

Well, I think Keese

he's obviously hitched himself to the of the emerging football powers.

He's very much a golf man

and maybe sees it as slightly zero sum, given that America is kind of the other emerging football market.

The World Cup would be back in the Gulf

where he belongs.

Yes.

Simple one next.

Here's Keason Gray on Moises Kaisedo.

Look at that.

He is basically everywhere.

He goes everywhere.

He breaks a game up.

I can't speak highly enough of him.

What do they used to say about Kante?

Two-thirds of the world is covered in water water and the other third is covered by Kante.

He's approaching that.

He is that though.

I mean,

if you could carbon date a football

meme, Charlie, that's the exact sweet spot for what I think Keeji would think, yeah, I'm going to...

unfurl this live on air.

And halfway through that line, he turns to the camera as well, which is a lovely little trick of his.

Yeah.

Bringing the viewers in.

But yeah, I mean,

it's an above-average line, I'd say, in the grand scheme of football memes, isn't it?

Yeah, it's funny because it's approaching the 10th anniversary of it.

So it's hard to

cutting edge.

But it's also, I just love the way he delivers it, saying Kaisedo's approaching that as if it is an actual metric.

Yeah, the Opta issues.

Yeah, yeah, like there is actually,

according to Opta, he has actually covered that much of the earth.

And Kaisedo,

yeah, if Gaisedo keeps going, he's actually tracking to become a more of the earth.

Really?

Right.

Finally, of course, they covered Reuben Amarin's Manchester United existence before United took on Sunderland at Old Trafford on Saturday.

Here is over four minutes of liquid broadcasting condensed into its purest essence.

Well, you know he's toast because the Jim Reaper's given permission to those that have gone or have played for Manchester United previously and now work in the media to turn on him.

And the players have no faith in it.

They have little faith in the coach.

And I think that message now has finally arrived at the Jim Reaper's office.

And that's why his coat is on a shaky place.

I think he knows as well.

I would also finally say, if it's not the system,

change the system.

Change the system.

Be flexible and intelligent enough to understand that what you've served up in your time there has not worked.

He's very stubborn about what he plays and what he thinks.

Fergus changed his system.

He would have deployed three.

I know he did.

If you get beat today and he goes, he will go thinking, right, at least I didn't destroy my principles.

I didn't throw them into the bin.

But you may come to the pressure of change and daft.

And I was the first to say it.

I refer back to what I did say some three months ago.

I think he's working at the moment to maneuver himself into a position to get the sack.

I mean, a demonstration of their chemistry more than anything, Charlie.

But my favourite...

One of my favourite moments there was the deployment of the phrase, coat is on a shaky peg, which is a really classy way of saying a manager's imperiled.

So that was cool.

But my favourite moment there was a great example of how they dovetail as broadcasters and without it actually being that professional.

Gray will be talking, and then Keesy will just slide in with his own observation and then somehow find a gap, like a number 10 finding a pocket of space to unleash that final syllable.

Daft.

And it just finds the space.

And Gray doesn't miss a beep.

Makes himself look daft.

Daft.

It's like he waits for it and it goes daft.

And just finds the gap.

And that, you can't replicate that.

That's 40 years of broadcasting experience.

Yeah.

Yeah, I love as well that he's allowed to use his blog language just on a broad, you know, he's repeated, exclusively calling him the Jim Reaper.

Yeah.

Imagine Dave Jones

doing that or something.

Like the outcry, like, we apologize unreservedly to Manchester United.

It was a moment of action.

He'd probably be banned or maybe even sacked.

It would be like a national scandal.

You can't be so disrespectful.

You'd have to give his apology like Red Help did.

Which was,

by the way, stuff.

Amazing.

Yeah.

But yeah, maybe you just, if you're an overseas broadcaster, you're allowed that distance, Dave.

You're allowed to do that.

I mean, obviously, Keesy's a completely special case.

He runs everything, but

it looks so he's got some power over there.

Yeah, he can say what he likes.

To the backing of that aircon.

Anything goes.

They won't hear it.

The aircon's very loud.

Great stuff.

Thanks to you, Charlie Equisher.

Thank you.

Thanks to you, David Walker.

Thank you.

Thanks to everyone for listening.

We'll be back on Thursday.

Cardiff, see you Wednesday night.

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.

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