Lightning at the Club World Cup, U21 glory and the Women’s Euros – Football Weekly

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Hello and welcome to Guardian Football Weekly back after our long brackets two-week break where we still did some podcasts.

Won't people think of the podcaster fatigue at the elite level?

Fortunately, there's very little chance of a two-hour delay for extreme weather during this record.

Not so much luck for the Chelsea and Ben Vica players and fans in Charlotte who had to come back to finish their Club World Cup game.

Areska said it's not football.

Chelsea have dealt with the confusion the only way they know how by buying a load more wide attackers.

John Klopp's called the Club World Cup pointless, but it is still happening and we'll round up the games as Bayern and PSG progress.

Also today, it's come home again.

Jonathan Rose, extra time header, ending two years of hurt for England, who retained the under 21s Euros.

Do we care?

Should we care?

Should Thomas Tuchel take any of these players to the extreme weather-delayed World Cup next year?

The Women's Euro starts this week.

England are in the group of death.

Lauren James makes a great return last night.

We'll start looking forward to that.

All that, plus your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Seb Hutchinson, welcome.

Hello.

Hello, Dan Bardell.

Hello, Max Rushton.

And good morning, John Bruin.

Hello, Max Rushton.

It's quite tricky to work out what to lead with where, because, you know, the women's Euros is huge, and it is, we're going to get to it and focus on it more as the week and weeks progress.

England obviously won a trophy.

That doesn't happen very often.

That's good.

And I don't know if it's because of the quality of football or just the sort of oddness of the Club World Cup that makes me feel like it is the biggest story at the moment.

Xavier says the Club World Cup finally broke me.

I just cannot follow it.

Am I guilty of losing faith in football or is it Gianni's fault?

Charlie says, which game are you most looking forward to having a two-hour break midway through at the World Cup next year?

Let's start with that, Seb.

That extraordinary break.

It finished the game four hours and 38 minutes after it started.

It was delayed in the 86th minute because of the severe weather protocol.

It just sort of ridiculous.

Well, I'll start by saying that it helped me because it was on at the same time as the under-21s final.

So it gave me a chance to see a bit of that game, which was helpful.

But

besides that, I have a funny relationship with this competition.

I think most people do, especially in this country.

And

I'd probably compare it to streaming movies.

It's probably the best comparison I could do in that, you know, for me, the best way to see a film is in the cinema.

Ideally, a film that's been actually shot on film, multi-speaker set up, you know, and the next best option is

on a big TV screen or with a disc in the best format possible and then streaming is the next step down.

But ultimately, streaming is the most accessible and popular way to consume films.

And ultimately, you're still watching the same teams with the same players.

But for the true connoisseurs, it's just not quite right.

The audio is compressed, the colors are crushed, the players walk out one by one at the start of the game.

FIFA are like the production company, and mostly all they care about is whether the money's being made and that the most eyeballs are on their product as possible.

You know, the managers are like the film directors, privately and sometimes, well, publicly, they complain about how this isn't the true art form, you know, and the footballers are the actors.

The format doesn't matter.

They're still getting paid, but

is too much exposure actually,

you know, good for them, ultimately?

The flip side is that...

More streaming has probably allowed, you know, more smaller budget films or productions outside the elite to share the limelight.

It's quite the analogy, this, isn't it?

Yeah, this is really good, isn't it?

I'm going to keep going.

You know, it opened up the eyes of the mainstream industry to the idea that it's not just a space for them.

You know, everybody can be part of this party.

I could add more, let's leave it there.

I think you get where I am.

Well, actually, I'm trouble.

I'm like, just to deconstruct it, I'm not sure.

Like,

isn't this the absolute antithesis of the art house movie?

Like, no, like, you don't think it is?

Well, streaming is in a way, because it's not the quality in which which it was shot.

You know, how people initially enjoyed things.

When I watch a stream, it detaches you because it's just there.

You know, you open up the streaming service.

I don't want to pick any out because I might work for them one day.

But, you know,

you open it up and it's just everything's there in front of you.

And just go, okay, I'll go for that then.

Whereas the idea of buying a ticket to the movie or going to buy the DVD, it's an event.

It feels special.

It feels something that you can go and feels tactile.

Whereas this just feels, I don't know what time the games are on half the time.

I can't remember who's playing.

I'm looking at thinking going, is it an eight o'clock today?

Is it five o'clock today?

I can't remember.

I don't think which team should I be supporting here.

Should I be supporting the underdog side?

But then that underdog side is a giant in their own country.

And I just can't get my head around it.

People could apply that to the Champions League, but the Champions League is rooted in my football upbringing.

Yeah.

There's no chance of me having a go at it.

Whereas this, my memories of the Club World Cup is always, it happens around the time when it's inconvenient.

It feels like South Americans love it more, and it's always tied within the late 90s, Manchester United dropping out of the FA Cup.

But then, at the same time, I enjoyed seeing Edmundo, what it was at the time, wasn't it, in players like this?

And you forget, and you just think there's bits that you like, but it's just not the true thing that you loved about football.

I was going to say,

Desone do offer a broad premium package for.

i'm gonna say every streaming company says 4k u hd but yeah it's not it's not it's not

well yeah no no you you you you're also correct on that sub yeah yeah yeah yeah and as a as a pretentious wanker uh i uh you know subscribe to movie and watch foreign films what too you know it's that's that's what streaming was made for maybe rather than

it's bang on you know in the business that we're in football business people are moving to streaming.

And do you know what one thing is?

It's happening at a different time to what is actually going on.

It happens slower.

They haven't worked out the tech of that.

So there we go.

We've deconstructed the V4 World Cup.

I suppose

you don't ever WhatsApp your mates to go, is anyone watching any good football at the moment that they could recommend?

That's not how football works, is it?

So look, back, back to, back to, I mean, unless you want to bring in another analogy, Dan.

You know, Mareska said, after the break, the game changed completely.

For me, it's not football.

It's already seven, eight, nine games that they've suspended.

I think it's a joke, to be honest.

It's not football.

It's not for us.

You cannot be inside.

I struggle to understand.

I can understand that for security reasons, you suspend the game, but if you suspend seven or eight games, that means that this is probably not the right place to do this competition, which has massive implications for the World Cup, Dan.

And I can't remember in 94, maybe we just didn't care about lightning, but or climate change has changed the weather.

But like, there are huge implications for next year.

Yeah, look, it's not a a good look because essentially one of the main drivers for this tournament is that it's a it's a warm-up for the proper world cup i shouldn't probably shouldn't call it the proper world cup but to me it is the proper world cup that that's happening next year and you know people don't like long vr var checks or long stoppage time to have a break that's hours long people are people aren't going to put up with that and it does devalue the product and it will affect things so it just can't be happening i felt a bit sorry for the for the players i feel a bit sorry for mareska He's almost trying to say, I don't want to be there without saying, I don't want to be there.

And it's just put everyone in a really awkward position.

The thing I can't cope with with this tournament even more than the weather is, what season is it?

Yeah.

Because when Harry Kane scored last night, the commentator said,

he said it's the 40th, Harry Kane's 40th goal of the season, but you're wearing the 25-26 season kit.

Jonathan Tarr's playing for Bayer Munich, and I bet he's already played against Bayern Munich four times for Bayer Levikus.

how can it be his 40th goal of the season surely it's just uh his second or third goal in the in in the club world cup but that everything is just confusing with this and Seb's dreaming analogy is absolutely spot on it's like transformers 27 that didn't make it to the cinema and you sit there and watch it on Netflix or or whatever that the whole thing is just bizarre I was going to say the weather thing

I was thinking back to 1994 and I remember and you know sometimes are you well it's a proustian thing you remember where you were I remember driving through the Cheshire Plain which is where I'm from listening to Mexico Bulgaria second round and Alan Green in Alan Green's fashion look at the weather this is disgraceful you know

these storms are gonna and I've got a feeling that game was played in a storm also I need to check this with one of my gaffers at work Philip Philip Corner who's actually had this game we were discussing it the other day and I also have a recollection of do you remember when England played a warm-up for 2014 in Miami?

You won't remember the game.

It was a nothing game.

It was when Roy Hodge was in charge.

I remember it because my flight was the next day to go to Brazil.

And thanks to the people I was working for at the time, were like, could you cover the game off TV?

And that was delayed by two hours.

And we had to have, or an hour or so, and we had to watch an hour of Glenn Hoddle freestyling on TV while I waited.

So maybe, you know, in the time since, I mean, mean, do NFL games get called off of bad weather?

It was always, it's a different time of year, but

is it an environmental factor?

Can we ask that question?

It's one of those things, the weather just seems to get a bit more extreme than it did then, but it's not that these things haven't happened before.

Maybe they just got lucky in 1994.

I think the World Cup venues aren't all the same, of course.

Yes.

And, you know, it obviously depends if there is a, you know, a retractable roof on the stadium.

Speaking of Glenn Hodl busking, we were on the radio yesterday yesterday and talking about this game and nigel adley was commentating for talk sport and got in touch to say oh yeah well we we sort of busked at him and scott minto for you know 40 minutes and then the producer rescued them by just playing like old interviews and stuff and they could dip back in to say what's going on because you could just imagine the amount of times nigel had to say to scott and the players now how will they be feeling

i can't i can't be asking that question again and he said he said when um well you know because obviously it was 1-0 the 85th minute they come back on and they've been up all, you know, Lord knows what time it is.

And then Ben Vika get this one of these terrible handball penalties in the last minute.

And Ladley was saying, I've never sworn on comms before, but when Di Maria put that away, I was so close.

Please, Lord, no more of this, Seb.

These are the things that can break you as a commentator.

I'll remember one of the worst situations for that is sometimes on the lower key matches are the ones where you're left out to dry because you don't have this.

There's no studio to go to yeah i remember having to do must have been about 10 years ago it was the title decider in switzerland and basel won the title and the idea they won the title full-time whistle blows and you're expecting there to be celebrations and then there'll be a trophy lift coming quickly but what happened instead was they did this big parade of the biggest and best names of Basel.

So the celebrities.

And bearing in mind, it wasn't English on the tannoi, it wasn't English on the tanner.

So these people.

So it started well because Roger Federer came out.

And I think I've got this.

Yeah.

I've got this.

And I brought up a page of all his honors at that point in time.

I think, oh, this is good.

This is good.

Initially, I thought, oh, it's just going to be Roger Federer.

This is great.

He's going to bring out the trophy.

But then people started coming out.

And

what you do, and I don't want to give away my secrets, so I'll give a half secret away, is that you have to.

You have a Shazam.

Shazam.

The face of

the Swiss.

The Swiss Zed listers.

There's a bloke in a suit with glasses.

There's a woman who had her hair tied back.

I didn't know what to say.

So I just went on a history of Basel, basically, as not only a town, but as a football club and all their achievements.

And because it was somebody who was easily accessible to me.

And this is the benefit of not being on camera, because obviously, if you're in a studio,

you're going to need help.

You're going to need somebody to say, what VT have we got?

But in this, the setup I was in, that was all I can work with.

It went on for about 45 minutes.

And then the worst thing about it was when it came to them handing out the trophy, they'd run out of time on the slot.

So we didn't even get to see the trophy lift.

Because in TV, you have strict slots that you have to stick to.

And we never saw the trophy lift.

So there you go.

I'm not doing down your commentary abilities, but...

Just how many viewers do you think there were for the Basel parade and on English television?

Like, could you have just gone a bit silent?

And, like, there wouldn't have been a lot of pushback.

Probably not.

But, you know, you're a professional, aren't you?

You're a professional.

No, no, no, fair play.

Dan, look, Chelsea did win in the end.

And, you know, they are, I guess the players that are in the tournament, you know, when you're in a tournament, you want to win it.

And

they did well in there.

You know, Caicedo Fernandez and Lavia playing together is a good midfield.

And we haven't really seen that that often.

They've obviously got some good attacking players, so they've bought some more.

But like for Mareska, this would be a big deal to win this tournament.

Yeah.

And from the owner's point of view as well, I don't think I'm being disrespectful to say that

it would be a big deal for them.

To the owners, probably a bigger deal than maybe other owners for the clubs.

I think Mareska, probably the type of club that Chelsea is, Mareska, you need to get as much credit in the bank as you possibly can or as much money in the bank as you possibly can.

And if Chelsea win this, it will be seen as a successful tournament for them, and it will be seen as something that's successful for the club, maybe even more so than the Conference League.

I don't know, but the celebrations, I mean, I've seen people celebrate wins in preseason, friendlies in penalty shootouts that don't really mean anything.

But the celebrations, you could see that it genuinely did mean something to Chelsea, that they're there to try and win it, and that they'll go on now and try and win it.

They've got themselves into the quarterfinal.

So I think Chelsea as a football club would maybe view this as a bigger deal than quite a lot of the clubs that are in the tournament.

They have signed Jamie Gittens

approximately 55 million.

They've reached an agreement to sign Joe Pedro, John.

Where do they all fit?

I feel like we're having the same conversation we had last year.

It's battling.

They're good players.

Sure, Pedro, we know much more about.

It's a superb player.

But I can't work it out.

Yeah,

Gittins was a rare high point of Dortmund's Champions League season, wasn't he?

Particularly in the group stage.

Remember that group stage?

I mean, they're talking of football that sort of happened and we watched, but don't remember.

Yeah.

And then, I mean, Joe Pedro was one of the better strikers in the Premier League last season.

It's an interesting deal that I think.

I got a whisper quite recently that him and Brighton maybe didn't see eye to eye, that he always wanted to play and that he would

Brighton you have to you know you have to submit to the system don't you also Danny Welbeck had a great season last season and you know they had a as a centre forward but he what is Gio Pedro Gio Pedro can play off the front can't he he could play as a centre forward he's a decent penalty taker but didn't they just sign Liam DeLap isn't Nico Jackson seen as a you know a future

or has a player like Nico Jackson been bought to eventually you hone him up and then you sell him to Italy for a profit or something like that that's the model that we thought Chelsea were operating on so when we stockpile all these players they've got how many wingers have they got now but I suppose Gittins replaces Jaden Sancho who was going to be part of the stockpile but then they had a sale or return deal with Man United had to pay the return fee to return him I mean, it does sound like we're operating in a supermarket here, doesn't it?

John's talking about Chelsea and all the different players.

And I thought last night, I'll try and justify it.

Maybe there is some sense in it, and I'll just try and justify it.

But I got pretty fed up when I was doing it.

But

I took a list of players.

So Sancho's gone and I just replaced him with Jao Pedro.

Mudrick can't play.

Gittens

has come in for him.

And Kunku, they're trying to shift.

You could say Dilap will be his replacement.

I think Jao Felix is still there.

Is he still there?

Xiao Felix?

Is he their player?

They bought so many players or loaned so many players.

I don't know who they bought and who's on loan loan anymore, but I believe Xiao Felix was purchased.

He's probably going to go, and they've got the young Brazilian winger who said will be able to pronounce better than me.

Esteval?

Esteval's

coming in, so maybe he's his replacement, but it's still a lot of footballers.

I get that they're playing in a more premiere competition in Europe this season in the Champions League, so they're going to need a bit more quality.

They won't be able to do what they did in change in the entire 11 in the conference league, but they'll need players to come in and out.

But it still just feels like that's a lot of players.

Jao Pedro is a bit of a hothead.

That's what I was saying.

Yeah, yeah.

Brighton would like good player, temperament.

And also, you're dealing with someone like Mareska, who is this disciplinarian, isn't he?

That's how he operates.

You know, did he not say last season?

If I can't remember the player, he's like, if he does that again, he'll be out of the team.

And it was some

attempted, you know, flashy pass or something like that.

Only Cole Palmer's really allowed to express himself.

I think that's good.

And then you might say Cole Palmer probably didn't express himself as much as he could because he was in a Maresca team.

Interesting manager, very disciplined, very Italian, isn't it?

Very Capello, reminds me of that sort of, you know, you must again submit to him.

Joe Pedro is a good player, but he's the type of player that Chelsea is something of a ghost ship for strikers, isn't it?

They've never replaced Didier Drogba.

It's Don't Talk.

Right, elsewhere.

Palmerez beat Botafogo 1-0.

First team to reach the quarterfinals.

PSG hammered into Miami 4-0.

Played some lovely football, as we know they can.

Harry Kane scored two really good goals.

The second was a brilliant first touch and finish as Bayern beat Femengo 4-2.

Lovely goal from Gerson, who absolutely hammered it from Ego.

And that's where Jorginho is.

He scored a penalty.

I didn't know that.

Man City will play Alhil Hal.

Real Madrid will play Juve.

Man City looked pretty good when they beat Juventus 5-2.

The best goal was an own goal by Kalulu.

And Erling Haaland scored his 300th and shittest career goal, I would venture to suggest.

I don't know if anyone has any strong thoughts on any of those games or any of those moments from those games.

I think you touched on it there by mentioning Gerson

and then the

goalkeeper John as well, which just, I don't know why these things, they make me feel warm inside.

Because

only Brazil can get away with this.

I had the nostalgia of Gerson all 1970, even though I wasn't alive, but I still have that nostalgia.

And also

just somebody called John as a goalkeeper just feels so right it closes the gap between the elite John he's called himself John exactly John do you think he has another nickname on top of that you know layered nicknames someone just calls him jay sometimes or

dave

named after john burridge maybe that's the uh

it's lukey to a burridge isn't it of course

uh speaking of man sit we'll do some transfer stuff in a bit, but

Everton and Newcastle link with move for Jack Grealish.

But we might do some transfer stuff

when we have the time.

Anyway, look, that'll do for part one.

And obviously, we'll do more Club World Cup as the knockouts continue.

Part two will be the England under the 21s.

Hi Pod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So we're going to win back-to-back under 21 Euros titles, 3-0 over Germany after extra time.

They were 2-0 up early.

Germany pegged it back.

Hit the bar in injury time before Marseille striker Jonathan Rose scored a diving header.

Sort of shouldery head.

You know, it wasn't Keith Houchin, but you know, it's a winning goal in the Euros.

Can't knock it.

A brilliant Tyler Morton cross.

Early in extra time, they held on to win it.

Harvey Elliott scored in this game he scored in the semis and the quarters as well was named player of the tournament and I suppose Dan this is great it is you know it's England winning another trophy serial winners now at youth level in particular under 21's level it's not quite translated to the first team but obviously we've had a couple of finals in the time that the the youth team of all the younger sides have been doing well I think

Really, really interesting that the entire tournament actually for England, and I felt this in 2023, I think it it was when England won it last time.

Just the way Carsley sets up his team feels very anti-what England go and do generally and in tournaments, in that he just finds a system that suits the players.

He perhaps even finds a system just for that tournament.

And I remember the World Cup in 2018 when England hadn't really played three at the back, and Southgate just kind of went with it for that tournament, came up with a tournament structure in it, and it worked really well for that tournament in 2018.

And I feel like Carsley's done that really well in 2023 and 2025.

We kind of, at times, I I know we did play with a striker in the final, but at times, strikerless systems that just relies on clever off-the-ball movement from the attacking players.

It gets the attacking players into the team, but not at the expense of anything.

And I think I really wanted Carsley to get the job, actually, the full-time job.

I thought that was a nice succession following on from Gareth Southgate.

But there's been some players there for England that have...

done themselves a lot of favours in that tournament.

Harvey Elliott, obviously winning the play of the tournament award, he's probably going to leave Liverpool.

For Liverpool, it's great because it's probably giving them another £10 million on his asking price.

Still not quite clear where he'd fit in elsewhere in the Premier League, but he'll end up getting a good move.

And he was a joy to watch throughout the whole tournament as well.

Amari Hutchinson had had a brilliant tournament as well.

I'd imagine he'll get a move back to the Premier League off the back of it somewhere.

So really, really,

I love watching Carsley's England team play.

I thought they were brilliant all tournament.

I mean, winning is is clearly a good thing, and it is better than any of the other available options.

But the real question, Seb, is how much does this help the England senior team?

Especially when it looks like Thomas Tuchle is just selecting old, haggard bastards, you know, at the expense of youth.

Well, history has told us that if youth teams do well and you have a system in place, the senior team does benefit ultimately.

You know, Spain have shown that quite clearly.

And I think also, if you go back to, to i think it was 2009 when germany thrashed england in the final i mean i remember watching that tournament and just thinking the way the germans were playing i thought this is another level to the english players even though many of them had been hyped up at the time as is always the case and then a year later this is a side that's really impressing in the world cup you know losing to a spain side narrowly in the semi-finals and then going on to win the tournament so there is a progression there the question is how many of these players as well are going to be involved in that in a weird way it doesn't matter as much because if they're not good enough to make the senior team, that's a sign that there are better players ahead of them.

And there are lots of under-21 players in the senior setup now who could have been in this tournament.

But having that depth is really good.

We have players who are and will be playing for foreign clubs outside of England.

And I've seen it, I watch a lot of youth football, and sometimes you get the sense that younger teams are geared to play like the senior side plays with varying degrees of success.

But I think what's impressed me is when you see coaches able to imprint their own mark on a side, and this is definitely the case with Carsla.

You know, I watched, I read people saying that Germany outclassed England in the group stage match.

It was the opposite.

I know it was a second-string Germany side.

I saw the match.

England controlled the ball for large parts of the game.

They created chances.

Germany took their chances.

England had nearly 20 attempts on goal to Germany's five.

They had about 70% possession.

You play games like that, and more often than not, good things will happen.

And in the final, yes, Germany hit the woodwork twice, well, in key moments,

and they had probably one of the best performers,

Paul Niebel.

But 2-New, England, had very good chances to put the game to bed.

And I felt they thoroughly deserved to win the tournament.

And I just think these are great templates.

Think of the under-17s winning the World Cup in 2017.

People forget that the under-19s won the Euros that year, and

the under-20s won the World Cup.

And look at the senior team recently has been reaching finals.

So it is that last step for England.

But at the same time, there are other teams

who are doing this as well.

And Spain are a great example of that.

Spain have done this for many years and they're bearing fruit.

And they were the England of the past, you would say the nearly men.

And now they're at the forefront of the game.

John, this question probably works better after England had been knocked out on penalties by

France in the quarterfinals next year.

But, you know, we talked a lot about,

you know, in-game management, right?

And Southgate, just that last thing being able to work things out.

And like Lee Carsley showed in this game, right?

You know, Alex Scott got injured.

He had to, he took Harvey Elliott off.

I mean, that was late on.

But, but, you know, he had to make changes during the game.

He made changes during this tournament, didn't start with the striker, then brought Jay Stansfield in.

Here is a manager who does

make changes in games, does change as tournament goes on.

Do you think we might end the World Cup going, oh, we missed a trick there?

It's not a fair question.

I know it's not.

No, no, no, no.

I mean, one thing is about Thomas Tuchel is that his in-game management is quite decent.

He's a very tactically adept manager.

That's why one of the reasons they got him, the reason they got him is,

as well as that, is that he is a consumer media performer in the fashion, a different character to Southgate, of course.

Southgate was that patrician.

Tuchel is the guy that is able to shout down people's questions.

Carsley, actually, when he was England manager caretaker, showed that he was willing to adapt.

Remember the game against Greece when he went with our strikers and he and this was regarded as his great failure.

It's actually quite a good Greece team.

He

showed that he could adapt and switch around English players.

The reason he didn't get the job was because they were looking looking for a superstar in Thomas Tuchel.

And Carsey himself was honest and was too honest a football man and spoke too much like a footballer.

Remember his reply after one game was, I think, was it the Scotland game when he's just a you couldn't who writ it?

Excuse the brummy answer there, Dan.

Completely unaccessible.

Yeah, yeah,

but

that's how a footballer speaks.

But an England manager has to be a bit more statesman-like.

And that's what the FA went for because

the FA, the FA's problem after so many years with so much media management, they've got Southgate, who absolutely nailed that bit of it.

And that's why they've gone for Tuchel,

who also happens to be a Champions League winning manager.

But let's pay tribute to Lee Carzi, a fantastic manager at that level.

The players clearly adore the guy because he has given them, and let's face it, as Seb says, this may be the greatest moment of their career,

but he has delivered them to that point.

And he's delivered with two different groups of players, and he's made it not look easy, but he's dug them out of situations by making those changes.

Like Jonathan Rowe that scored that goal, suffered a bit in a group stage.

He had a bit of a difficult run because they'd suffered for the lack of Liam DeLap.

He was asked to play a role he wasn't really suited to, but he comes back later in the tournament, delivers a winning goal.

Fantastic.

Brilliant achievement by Lee Carsley.

Remember in 82 and 84, England won the Euros under Dave Sexton.

Now, Dave Sexton was a manager at the end of his career.

He'd managed Chelsea, QPR, Manchester United.

Carsley is, well, it's that weird thing, isn't it?

The young manager.

He's in his 50s.

But

would Lee Carsley ever get a club job?

It's interesting.

Or is he just happy with that?

Yeah, I mean, I suppose the question is, and we sort of touched on this when he was running the main team about whether he actually enjoyed doing it and actually this is he's found the perfect spot for him and if you find the perfect spot for you you know and you're happy then that's great like good like like you know like end like that you don't have to you don't have to constantly be thinking where does this what's you know is this a stepping stone to to this or that dan i wondered like

of the players in there do you do you think Livramento possibly and maybe you know there is that number six role Elliot Anderson had a really good tournament as well yeah and like could could could he be that i mean he's not that and he he did he is did play that role like a six didn't he but like could that free up rice and and bellingham i think elliot anderson was actually one of the signings of the season in in the premier league it was clear that it was a little bit of a psr deal obviously and people would have raised eyebrows at the 35 million pound price but Newcastle were upset to lose him.

It was pretty much desperation at that point of the June the 30th deadline that they decided to trade with Forrest and let Elliot Anderson go.

But the Newcastle fans as well really, really liked him.

And, you know, Newcastle have got a brilliant midfield, but Elliot Anderson would have got games in that team last season.

And he's gone to Forrest.

And he really, really stood out for me.

And he really, really stood out for England under 21 throughout that tournament as well.

For me, him and Rice feels like the ideal double pivot.

I think you've got to have players that progress from that team.

And I just had a look at the last under-21 squad that won in 2023, and seven of them were in the last England squad and under Thomas Tuchel.

So people will make their way through, whether it be the next squad or in 12 months' time or whatever.

But Elliot Anderson, to me, seems a certainty.

He's such a good all-round midfielder, a real driving force, and he's really picked up where he left off with Forrest for England.

And I think he's ideal next to Declan Rice personally.

Just on that squad, you know, from what, two years ago, Steven were in the Last England squad.

Have any of them completely disappeared?

Well, they still play professional football.

Yeah, Smith Rowe was in it.

He was obviously a bit bitty

at Fulham.

Gordon and Madowake, Gibbs White were obviously in the last England squad.

Cameron Archer hasn't had a great time.

Oliver Skiff went to Leicester and he'll probably wish that he hadn't.

Jacob Ramsey, plenty of injuries.

Curtis Jones was in the last squad.

I'm just going through the whole squad backwards.

No, but I just think it is, I think it's really interesting that, you know, even when you get there, like you see players who played England under 9, you know, Cambridge have signed two players in the window who played England under 19s at certain time in their career, right?

But the 21s, even then, and you, you know, it's it's just not just the difficulty of making it and sustaining it as an as an elite footballer is just, I think we quite often take it for granted.

And it's just quite interesting to see, you know, what the progression is.

Because, you know, all the, if you're playing England under 19s or under 17s or whatever, you will just be told, you know, this is your path that you're on that journey.

And it's just, it's more difficult than that.

Sorry, did anyone have a salient point they wanted to make about before I came in with that?

No, no, it would be, I just would have been adding to it going through that squad and saying, yeah, Angel Gomez did play for

England a couple of times under Carcy, funnily enough, because he saw something in it from the under-21s.

And I think that's the blend.

Look at Luis de la Fuente

for Spain.

You know, he's gone through all those age groups to manage a senior side.

He knows those players so well.

And sometimes those are the things that work.

It's just those interpersonal things.

These players are coached by their club sides most of the year.

So a lot of the stuff you're adding could be quite simple, it could be just a personal element.

Oh, well, well done, England and uh Lee Carsley.

Um, a few other bits and bobs before we look at the women's euros.

Brentford have appointed Keith Andrews as their new head coach following Thomas Frank's departure to Tottenham.

He was previously served as Ireland's assistant manager, worked with Brentford's B team.

I mean, the good thing here, John, is you know, Brentford lost a manager with great hair.

Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, they have replaced him with perhaps the greatest hair in football.

Yeah, and may I also say

Keith Andrews will be the first ever Premier League manager to have interviewed me.

So

he used to be a radio presenter in Ireland on Off the Ball.

So one time we had a chat and he started asking me about midfielders and I said,

I think you might know a bit more about them who's playing in midfield than I do.

So

that was the discussion we had.

Quite a nice chap to deal with at the time.

was Ireland's best player at their ill-fated Euro 2012 campaign.

Nick Ames was telling me that he was quite a good player for a forgotten Ipswich team.

A point

a friend of mine, Ken Early, has pointed out, which is that is this the first guy that goes from being set piece coach to manager?

So, you know, in NFL, you'll have defensive coordinator becomes like suddenly the coach of a team.

Is this the move?

Is Nicholas Jova staring at the back of Mikel Arteta's fine head of hair, thinking that's mine one day.

Is Austin McPhee

running through his own fine head of hair, looking at Yunai Emery's and thinking also fine head of hair.

Well,

he has the widow's peak, but he has the

sort of Steve Coogan mane, yeah.

And

he's able to say,

that's mine one day.

And is this, is this, is this,

have set pieces become so important to football that suddenly it's like, well, was good at set pieces, so let's get him in now.

Austin McFee is also now not Portugal set piece coach, he's Portugal coach.

So

he's moving up, he's moving up.

There's a lot going on there.

I was probably Martinez, I'd be scared.

There was a great clip of Martin O'Neill on Talksport talking about Keith Andrews going, the weird thing about Keith Andrews is when I wanted to win games with set pieces, he was absolutely dead against it.

He just wanted to get the ball and play it.

But, you know,

how things judge.

There is a lot of bad blood there between the Andrews and the Roy Keene regime.

Roy Keene, of course, was assistant at Villa at the time, wasn't he?

He was Paul Lambert.

And there was the,

didn't Roy Keene say, like, if I wanted to hear the biggest bullshitter in football, I would think of Keith Andrews.

So there you go.

Yeah.

So that'll be spicy when Brett.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Lose their first Super Sunday if they ever get on Super Sunday.

I was going to say that, yeah.

Yeah,

they're one of your 3 p.m.

head-down teams, aren't they?

Rude Benestoro has left his role as Leicester City Manager by mutual consent.

I'm not sure.

You know, who dumped who?

Come on, Rude.

After just five months in charge.

He took over in January.

But really, it was a total, total disaster.

Paul Pogba, quite tearful signing his first professional contract since his ban.

Signed a two-year deal with Monaco.

Not tearful because he signed at the same time as Eric Dyer.

No, I'm kidding.

I love Eric Dyer.

I do.

And he looked really happy, Eric Dyer, then he was on a little yacht when they did his

unveiling with his shirt.

That's a great, he's done so well.

Go to Bayern, win a title, now go to Monaco.

But Pogba, look, Seba, it's great that he is back.

And of course, Premier League fans never saw the best of him at Manchester United.

We know that.

And it was cost a lot of money, whatever.

At Juventus, he was unbelievable.

And there is a great player there.

And whatever the reasons for his ban,

I think it is a positive story that he is back and playing, and I wish him well.

Yes, yeah.

He's a player that when he does eventually retire, he will be looked back on fondly in the way that players often are when they show you moments that make you feel not many players can do this.

He was a, I say he was, you know, still might show it for Monica, but he's a midfielder who...

When you see certain midfielders play, while they might not always be consistent, they do things in games that make you think oh that is somebody who is levels above he had a presence on the pitch he was a tall guy strong guy but great balance great feet he could dictator midfield he's played in huge games you know he's played in world cup finals champions league final you know he's won cups and and all these things matter in the great great grand scheme of things when we look back on players careers he's also had lots of off-the-field issues with his family and he's somebody who's moved countries at a young age this is always part of the story that we don't really think about.

Left Manchester United, came back to Manchester United.

And

yeah, I just think football will look back on him fondly because it's the way we do.

We think he'll be one of those players that people talk about in the same way where people look back at players in the 90s or 80s and they say,

I love that player.

I'm trying to pluck players out of my head.

Peter Bussy, I don't know.

Raquel May, someone like that.

Raquel May, that's the perfect example.

That's

Redondo.

Redondo.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Raquel May was one one of those players that are obviously hugely, hugely talented, and

in particular

Boca Juniors, you know, as regards, but never really did it in Europe.

But you could see that, like, God, this guy's a man.

He was great for Villariel, I should say.

But if you've got, you're right, if you've got a five minutes and you just

want to watch some great football and you just Google Raquel May's YouTube, his greatest bits.

Yeah.

Genius.

Yeah.

Week in, week out, though, not consistent.

Yeah.

Not consistent.

Dominic Cowberluen is going to leave Everton everton on a free his contract expires today uh he put out a lengthy statement and presumably dan worth a punt given there's no fee obviously loads of injury problems you know he was in the i think you know he was heir apparent to harry kane for england he was in the last year number two striker wasn't he was it 20 he was euro 2020 euro 2020 he was in 2021 yeah and and like you know like injuries and we talk about player fatigue and and how much football the elite players are playing clearly you know everton don't play 60 games a year or whatever, and he doesn't play 38 games a year, but

at his best, if fit, great, great player, I think.

Or maybe one, maybe one great, not great, great.

I don't know.

Like, good, good.

Actually, maybe not even great, but good.

Worth a risk for someone.

You would die.

I mean, he's gone down from being great, great to worth a risk there.

So it was a quick fall from grace for Dominic Garvin.

Nobody's going to be YouTubing his highlights like Raquel May in 20 years.

But I really, I like him as a footballer.

I think there's something there.

Yeah, I was trying to think where I think he'll end up.

And the two combinations, the two clubs I came up with were West Ham or Fulham.

Fulham have reinvented a lot of players who kind of a little bit lost their way.

And Marco Silver's done a great job there.

They're like a collection of good footballers that have played for other Premier League teams, but have gone to Fulham and found themselves and played well.

And West Ham will just forever need a number nine.

And for a free, it feels like something that they might do.

Scored a really important goal, didn't he, for Everton, Calvert Lewin that kept them up that he'll be forever remembered for.

I think there was murmurs maybe three weeks or so ago that they were still talking to him and he was going to sign a new contract, but he's been at Everton a long time.

I think it's one of those ones where a player leaves a club.

It's probably the right time for the club and the right time for the player as well.

No one's really losing there by him walking out at the end of his contract, but it feels like a very fulham-ish signing to me.

Dan, would you be insulted if I said he could be okay for the Villa?

I think Villa are probably

a level or two above.

I know they're a higher level, but Ollie Watkins gets injured.

There isn't really someone else to lead the line.

I mean, Watkins is fairly durable.

He had a bit of an off time with it last season, but if Watkins was to get injured, you'd probably find that Dominic Carver Lewin would be injured at the same time.

Probably

wouldn't be worth it from that perspective.

Don't you think he'd be an amazing option for Everton?

Yeah.

No, I'd feel fitting like a glove at Everton.

Maybe if you like one of those players that has like a.

I've always found that

going freelance was the cure to all illness.

Maybe

searching for a couple of franchise year to year,

his fitness record suddenly improves and this guy becomes a machine.

You know,

Where's Dominic Calvert Lewin?

Yeah, he scored two for West Ham and he's playing for Fulham next week.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

But I think you're right.

As a sort of cover, you know, come on, do a job.

A bit like, you know, in a different way.

Chelsea could do with another forward plan.

Yes, very good point.

Very good point.

Don't Arsenal need a striker.

I don't think that's been mentioned.

I don't think that's been mentioned.

Right, that'll do for part two.

Part three, we'll look ahead to the Women's Euro.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So, Euro 2025 in Switzerland kicks off on Wednesday with Iceland versus Finland, and then the host, Switzerland, take on Norway.

England, of course, trying to retain the title.

They're in Group D with France, Netherlands, and Wales.

They kick off on Saturday night against France at 8pm.

Netherlands the following Wednesday at 5pm.

Then Sunday the 13th, 8pm against Wales.

Steb, you're covering the tournament for ITV.

That group for England and for Wales is a killer, isn't it?

And, you know, unlike the England Leather 21s, they do not have time to grow into this tournament.

No, England could be out by the time they face Wales, which I think people haven't really...

grasped onto.

I think people have the idea because they're the reigning champions that they should be, it should be, you know, semi-finals or bust.

But but actually the draw the side of the draw England are on is really difficult so even if they get through the group they could play Germany in the quarterfinals they could then play Spain in the semi-finals I know you project like this but what I would say is the difference for England is on their day they can be anybody in the world and this is the key and this is always at the back of your mind and recently you felt you're not sure what England's going to turn up in games but when they do turn up You think well this is this is the favourite here and then when they're off the boil for any reason then you think oh no no they're going to struggle and they've had this they have france and the netherlands in their group who in this last two years they've both beaten and lost to in competitive games so again these are tough opponents and then you're having to play wales in the last game ideally from a welsh point of view they probably want england to have got through by then because england will probably then rotate and then give them a chance because if you're in wales' position

you're always looking for you go to tournaments you qualify for tournaments you're looking for that moment that one

And I, you know, I think to you know, Jamaica in France 98, Robie L scoring the goal against Croatia, that was the moment.

Even though Jamaica went on to beat Japan in the final group game, that was the symbolic moment of the tournament that people remember from a team that didn't progress out of the group.

Wales are very, very unlikely to progress out of the group, but they can make life tough for the teams in the group.

But yeah, to go back to England,

it feels very boom-or-bust, for sure.

They are certainly a side that could be considered amongst the favourites, but at the same time, there's a risk of them going out in the group stage.

And how often do you say that about a team in a tournament?

Yeah, I mean, Tom Gary, I heard saying

there are basically six teams that can win this, and three of them are in the same group, Tip.

Yes.

I would put, for me, Spain are the favourites, but Germany are the side I feel could

probably pull through and win it, which might be thinking, oh, Germany, okay.

You know, considering Germany dark horses, I I mean, they were the dominant force in women's football for such a long time.

And that run was effectively broken by the Netherlands and now England.

And Spain feel the next team to do that would be three first-time winners in a row.

They are the standout technical side in world football overall.

Japan, actually not that far behind in terms of the technical side.

And if Spain gets it right, then nobody will beat them.

But as we know in football, that's not always how it works.

And favourites often fall by the wayside.

So, we will see.

As far as six teams, I think Tos probably pushing it, looking at the draw, probably feels that Norway can progress down their side.

They have a good side of the draw.

Sweden are always difficult to beat, so could get through past any side on their day.

So, that is a fair reflection, but I just feel Spain have that edge over everybody else.

England beat Jamaica yesterday in their final friendly before the tournament, 7-0.

Lauren James came on.

She's obviously been out for a long time, Seb.

Does she start against France?

Well, England wants her to because she's the difference maker for England.

She's a player who you can't, you don't really want to give instruction to, but at the same time, if she has the instruction and she's with the team, she is a game changer.

She can come up with things.

Even when she came on yesterday, she plays the game at her own pace.

She changes everything.

And

Serena Veeeman has said that she's in good condition and she's good to go.

And if she is good to go, she should start.

And because it's France in the first game, England don't really want to mess about with that.

The worst...

I don't think there's an easy answer to this because if she starts and then breaks down, England have a problem.

If she doesn't come on until late and England are behind in the game, people will say, why didn't you start Lauren James?

It's the internal circle of any football team or any football manager.

But I think for most people who watch the England team a lot, it is in Serena

they trust because her tournament record is exceptional.

I mean, it's the last two World Cups, she's reached the final.

The last two Euros, she's won them.

So, until that moment comes, and it does come for every manager, you have to back her to make the right decision.

I was going to ask,

it's about Serena, actually.

There've been those high-profile departures: Mary Earps, Millie Bright, Fran Kirby.

I heard a whispered recently that maybe Serena's,

let's not go into it, well, it is like a national stereotype.

Dutch directness may cause issues in the camp.

And, you know, certain managers, coaches achieve certain things and then the formula that worked stops working.

Is it possible that we've reached that point?

I mean, we're going to find out, aren't we, at this tournament?

Yeah.

I think good managers, what they do is they start to blood in younger players and fresh players to change things.

Squadiola does it all the time.

Yes.

And there are players that think, oh, I'm tired of this.

I'm tired of this relentless Squadiola stuff.

And then all of a sudden, they're just not in the team anymore.

And then you don't see them.

And they're out alone.

And you think, how are they going to cope?

And they bring in another player.

And England do have decent depth in a lot of positions.

There are some positions where it's not as deep in the fullback area, for example, and at the base of the midfield.

But in many respects, and I think about the players missing, Hannah Hampton

is a goalkeeper of the level of Mary Earps,

arguably better in recent times.

And at the same time, Frank Kirby, who's been a legendary player for England, England have a lot of competition.

In fact, there's a case that Lauren James might even play in that position from the first game.

So again, it's not the drop-off.

And from Millie Bright's point of view, she's been a rock for England at the back, but Alex Greenwood has also been a standout defender.

So it's not...

I think Serena Vegan will try and manage that.

Verenk, her assistant, is actually going on to manage the Netherlands after the tournament, which is quite a weird

situation.

She's taking a couple of coaches from the Netherlands and bringing them to England.

This is a good example.

But she's managed it so well and i think she's managed the fa well as well she speaks highly of the people who have hired her and the setup i feel maybe losing all three group games could be a tipping point because obviously wales are in there but the credit she has in the bank is so huge it would take a lot for it all to fall apart and i think individual england players also recognize if england do well i do well in terms of my career, my standing, what people think of me, the money I can earn away from the pitch.

And so you have to buy into that come tournament time, and I believe they will.

Word on Wales said, which is, you know, they're the first time they've qualified for a major tournament.

As you said, they are not fancied

to get any points probably from those three games.

Incredibly difficult for them.

But it is a bit like

Scotland, I forget which tournament it was, was the first time they'd qualified relatively recently.

And

it is not just the achievement of this squad, right?

They have done it, but it is on the shoulders of other, you know, women who have played for Wales through all the times where women's football got no coverage, when it had no money, when you know they didn't have any sort of professionalism, you know, helping them.

And so, for everyone involved in women's Welsh football, going back as far as you can remember, this is such a huge moment, isn't it?

Yeah, and what's quite nice about these sort of situations when you have a legendary player for a smaller nation in Jess Fishlock, who is now at a ripe old age, and I won't say her age, you know, out of respect, and she's Wales's greatest ever player.

She's ever had a lot of time.

She's 73.

She's 73.

Well, I don't know.

Some teams have drafted in players older than they should be into squads.

Anyway, I won't get into that.

38 officially.

38, yeah.

So for Jess Fishlock,

it doesn't matter what happens in the tournament, the fact she's there, she will feel such pride that the nation has made it.

You know, Rian Wilkinson's done a good job with them to get to the stage where they found themselves in this interesting position whereby there's a new format was brought in recently, the nations league format essentially which helps with qualification but also was designed to prevent you know england 20 latvia nil situations happening in competitive matches and wales i think have really benefited from that because they were in group b they got promoted to group a part of the reason it helped them qualify they ended up in a play-off and they won but they've been playing against league a sides in the build-up to this and they've had varying results they were beaten well by italy but actually they had two draws against Sweden.

And we talked about Sweden being one of the favourites.

They made life difficult for them.

And they have players with experience at the top level in England.

And while I, you know, it would be fanciful for me to suggest that they're going to, you know, be a dark horse and get out the group.

I don't think that's going to be the case because of their group.

Making it, as you say, is a symbolic moment.

You know, Northern Ireland were there at the last Euros.

You just want that moment.

It goes back, the Robiel moment.

That's all they need, A fishlock screamer against England.

And it doesn't, it almost doesn't matter what the scoreline is.

That will be remembered forever.

The Guardian Women's Football Weekly, as you covered throughout the Euros, they've got a preview pod out today.

We're going to put some of their pods into our feed.

We're, of course, going to cover it ourselves as well, as well as covering all the stuff that's happening in the men's game.

Joe says, John, any thoughts on this year's Glastonbury lineup?

Well, thankfully, having been at Jonathan Wilson's Wilson's wedding,

I didn't see any of it.

So my mum has been the reviewer.

She said

Rod was still pretty good.

Jarvis is weathering well.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah, I mean, I saw them the week before, and it was brilliant.

I can imagine it was just the same.

I was delighted, actually, when I realised that I wouldn't have to watch any of it.

I don't want to be there.

Of course, I've never been to a festival.

Too noisy.

But I quite like it cuts back to Joe Wiley looking like she's having a nice time, being very calm

with someone else about playing the guitar, and then it pops back to you.

Oh, look, there's an Alice Morissette, that's nice.

Because I am

bent and cynical, and all the rest of it, I just can't deal with the sort of

look at this wonderful Glastonbury atmosphere, and you could piss off.

You know, it's just not for me.

And I've actually been and I really enjoyed it, but I thought it was good.

I'm not going again.

And actually, my regret that when I did go was we skulked in various fields, gave up all types of nonsense.

And I didn't go and see Paul McCartney.

And I always think, you know.

Yeah, and I just, I just thought,

yeah, I was too

bit of too bitter.

That's because if you're a music snob, if you're a music snob, that'll happen.

You see?

Yeah, no.

Yeah, front and centre.

And I couldn't say who it was too because I have no recollection of what it was.

But the best act I saw back then was television 70s band in the new bands tent for some some reason that was fantastic but there you go well thank you so much uh tim says how do seb's sheep cope in the heat do they have 15 minute grazing breaks for water and bring on fake trees for shade how are they how are they doing you learn a lot from animals in the middle of the midday sun the sheep are hidden away in shade they don't come out and they graze at night they change their body clock because it's too hot and because of their fleece even though they were they were sheared not that long ago it's still thick enough and they have an oil over it as well to stop the waterproof element they're looking at me out there in the sun doing whatever i'm doing and uh they're just thinking you idiot what are you doing get out of this weather you're not supposed to be in it you know take a break take a four hour break like the club world cup be sensible um but they they are they are

they have no interested as soon as the sun comes out from behind the clouds they just run they just run into shade and you won't get them out.

Because animals, they've worked out, they know what they have to do.

Have we?

Who knows?

Wow.

What a profound way to do Football Weekly today.

Put that on a t-shirt.

Thanks, everybody.

That'll do for today.

Thank you, John.

Thanks, Max.

Cheers, Dan.

Thank you.

Thank you, Seb.

Thank you.

Football Weekly is produced by Silas Gray.

Our executive producer is Phil Maynard.

This is The Guardian.