Sunderland’s derby joy and Mo Salah returns – Football Weekly

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Speaker 2 Hi, folks. It's Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman.

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Speaker 17 Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. Nicholas Voltimata puts himself into folklore in the weird time Derby, but probably not quite how he hoped.

Speaker 17 In a weekend of own goals, his was the pick. Poor bloke.
A standing evasion from the Sunderland fans when he was substituted.

Speaker 17 He'll have to have some Newcastle queer now to be loved more by his own fans. Football is brutal.
Perhaps he can start a support group with Jerson Moscara. Poor wolves.
They dug in at the Emirates.

Speaker 17 He cries in the last minute before the Columbian headed into his own net. Is there a worse way to lose? Mo Sala back in the squad and on the pitch in the first half for Liverpool.

Speaker 17 He played okay, but not as well as Hugo Ekatike. Another two for him.
Enzo Maresca has the worst 48 hours as Chelsea manager. Thomas Frank has a pretty normal 90 minutes as Spurs manager.

Speaker 17 Man City remain ominous. Villa keep the pressure on and Fulham break their turf more hoodoo.
The new Celtic manager, Wilfred Nancy, hasn't had an ideal start to his tenure.

Speaker 17 Three defeats in three years, St. Mirren win the Scottish League Cup.
All that plus your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 17 On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, welcome.

Speaker 14 Hello, Max. Hello, Robin Cowan.

Speaker 18 Hi, Max.

Speaker 17 And good morning, Nada Manuha.

Speaker 14 Morning, Max.

Speaker 17 Let's start then at the Stadium of Light. Sunderland 1, Newcastle Nil.
Nick Voltameda's 46-minute own goal. You were there, Barry.
How was it?

Speaker 14 I was there, Max. It's very kind of you to give this game top billing because

Speaker 14 this was a staggeringly bad game of football, but a wonderful occasion for me as a Sunderland fan. I got up to Sunderland on Saturday evening.

Speaker 14 And I went to the pub to watch Fulham-Burnley, because that's how I roll.

Speaker 14 Or Burnley-Fulham, I should say. And yeah, it was quite the experience.

Speaker 14 I don't know if it's like that every Saturday in Sunderland or just because it was the eve of Derby, but a lot of people out, very festive atmosphere.

Speaker 14 Sleeping Beauty was on in the Union Theatre, Panto, and loads of people in Christmas jumpers, everyone having a lovely time.

Speaker 14 Not too long after that game ended, news broke of the death of Sunderland legend Gary Roll after a long illness.

Speaker 14 And it was like someone had flicked a a switch, just everything went very calm or quiet and maudlin. And you could see people were generally upset by that.

Speaker 14 Gary,

Speaker 14 sorry, before my time, but he famously scored a hat-trick

Speaker 14 in Tyne Weir Derby at St. James's Park when both teams were in Division II in 1979.
So he's held in very high regard. Local lad held in very high regard at Sunderland.

Speaker 14 So they had a minute's applause before the game for him and that went, I think it was more, it went on and on and on and on

Speaker 14 before the ref finally blew his whistle and the game got started. Terrible game.
Like I watched the highlights again on Match of the Day this morning and it was quite telling that.

Speaker 14 I think their first half highlights consisted of three or four bookings

Speaker 14 and

Speaker 14 the Sunderland Tifo and Dan Byrne getting clattered and having to go off with damaged ribs. Needless to say, he got a very unsympathetic reception from the Sunderland fans.
And then

Speaker 14 shortly after halftime, Nick Voltamede scored that bullet header past his own goalkeeper. It turned out to be the match winner.
Neither team were particularly good.

Speaker 14 Sunderland at least tried to play a bit of football with limited success. I think by the time Voltamede

Speaker 14 scored that goal, neither team had had a shot on target or even a shot, maybe. So very low on quality, but the Sunderland fans didn't care, didn't give a hoop.

Speaker 14 And then after the game, Sunderland exacted revenge on Newcastle, who had famously taken that selfie in front of the fans at Stadium Alight when they swatted Sunderland aside in the FA Cup two years ago.

Speaker 14 So Sunderland took a selfie in front of their fans. I think it was Jason Tyndall who masterminded that stunt at the Stadium Alight.

Speaker 14 And after the game, I was working in the media room and I went outside to have a go on the life-giving apparatus that is my vape.

Speaker 14 And who should I see scuttling out the door and into the back of a people carrier, like some mob boss being ushered from a courtroom, but Mr.

Speaker 14 Jason Tyndall, head down, scurrying away into the back of the car, and he was driven off into the night. So that was kind of funny.
But a brilliant result for Sunderland.

Speaker 14 I think Newcastle fans will try to pretend they don't care about this because they've got bigger fish to fry. But this was a bad defeat for them.
They really didn't turn up.

Speaker 14 Anthony Gordon, Voltamata and Anthony Alanga, their front three were dismal, like so bad. I was shocked by how bad they were.
But thank you, Nick, for your telling contribution.

Speaker 14 It's quite an achievement to be a fan favourite with Newcastle fans, but even more of a fan favourite with Sunday fans

Speaker 14 at the same time.

Speaker 17 That is a moment that will live with him forever, Nadine. That's the brutality of football.
And actually, the beauty of football and rivalry is that is its meme straight away. It's t-shirts.

Speaker 17 There will be songs about him at the Stadium of Light now forever, unless he does something extraordinary when he plays, you know, at St.

Speaker 17 James's Park against London or in the next two, three years or whatever. Like that is a moment.

Speaker 17 Like, and it sort of feels slightly unfair for like some 23-year-old German who just tipped up a few months ago.

Speaker 1 Listen, you've always got to be careful when you bring in fairness. Like, what does that mean to you? What that means to you might be different to somebody else, but you are right.

Speaker 1 That goal will be remembered forever. I think he could be great in the next derbies to come, but he still scored the winning goal for Sunderland against Newcastle in

Speaker 1 his first Derby. You won't be able to escape that.
And yeah, as a young person, he's going to be thinking about that.

Speaker 1 And maybe it motivates him to do better in the future, but you can't erase history. That goal will be shown over and over and over and over.

Speaker 1 And in some ways, it's kind of because of what Barry said, because there's not much else we could show from the game itself. But from my perspective,

Speaker 1 that game in itself, it's not a great game of football, but I think it's a brilliant derby. I think the way that it finished as well kind of summed it up.
In added time,

Speaker 1 everyone's this like fake fisticuffs tough guy routine, which we've all been through.

Speaker 14 We're all doing that.

Speaker 1 The ball's coming in the box. How do you defend a kitchen sink? Well, you head-butt it, apparently.

Speaker 14 You just keep doing that.

Speaker 1 Ball goes out to the side. I think it was Trey Humey putting a tackle on.
I don't know who it was.

Speaker 1 And that got one of the loudest cheers in the stadium as well because of what it means in that moment. So that chaos and that level of competitiveness where it goes beyond the football.

Speaker 1 Because every fan in there was

Speaker 1 all right with you doing that on this day. I think you'd be judged according to different standards for different games.
But in that, in that match itself, they want to see your players fight.

Speaker 1 They want to see them battle. And yeah, you know, at some point you would like to see a bit more creativity.
But without that first part, people aren't going to be happy with you. So yeah,

Speaker 1 I think to go back to it for Voltamada, like he

Speaker 1 will not be able to escape that. While he's living in the Northeast, he will not be able to escape that.

Speaker 1 And while anyone in the Northeast is going to have any sort of link to his social media or whatever, he will not be able to escape it. It doesn't matter how well he's doing.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I've got to say. Awkwardly is a great header.
It's such a good header.

Speaker 14 But unfortunately,

Speaker 14 it's just in the wrong net, isn't it? I mean,

Speaker 17 if he really looks ahead, Robin, he can do the, in 20, 30 years, the after dinners, or maybe 40 years for him like it's a good it's he's got an anecdote that you know you only need two or three to base a career on i would in my experience so like maybe that's a positive and now a lot of people robin are comparing this to the ian dowry the stockport header and i i mean i'm firmly in the camp that dowry is superior far superior to this but i don't know what you think i mean i think they might have to he might they might have to sell him this and i just think i don't want to

Speaker 18 it's january i just yeah i know he's done pretty well but i just think this is this couldn't have gone worse for for volta mada and and for newcomer i mean it's that is that anything more delicious as a as a sunderland fan that their sort of star striker gets the winner for you i just it's just a bit too rich it's it's just incredible um

Speaker 18 yeah i mean it it just must have been great you've got granite jacker bloodied like bruce willis and diehard it's just it was just honestly it was like the perfect day for sunderland what i would say is that the only thing I did notice was it was Brian Brobby perhaps could have been sent off and it's interesting.

Speaker 18 I mean, Nadem might might come in on this, but I don't know would you prefer

Speaker 18 a yellow for someone brandishing a

Speaker 18 pretend card or for crunching someone's ankle. I think, you know, and that one didn't get one.
It's just,

Speaker 18 yeah, but I mean, it's Sunderland. I mean, I think also the context has been lost a bit, hasn't it? Sunderland, that's another win for them.
You know, their seventh. It's just, what a season.

Speaker 18 What a season they're having. It's so, so impressive.

Speaker 17 I think, you know, Bruce Willis is slightly more bloodied. Had Jaka been in a string vest and literally caked in blood, that would have been better.

Speaker 1 I was going to say, in regards to the card situation, I'm just going to turn a blind eye to that as a former Sunderland player. I'm going to say everything's fine with it.

Speaker 1 But in terms of like own goal tiers, so this is obviously a very good one, but for the purists of 90s football, in particular Man City, Jamie Pollock in 1998.

Speaker 14 That's great.

Speaker 1 True. Against QPR.
If a strike strike would have scored that goal, you'd probably say it's goal of the season. So you need to look into that one.

Speaker 17 Yeah, so Pollock, Pollock lifts the ball over an attacker somehow and then heads it home.

Speaker 17 The reason I love Dowies is Dowies against Stockport. I think he's playing for West Ham, and I think it's the Daggenham Motors sponsor sort of 90s.
I think it must be a League Cup game.

Speaker 14 It's that...

Speaker 17 He, I think, momentarily forgets where he is. Like,

Speaker 17 he rises and he heads the ball back where it's come from. It's like this Voltamata, there is, there is pace on the cross.
You can see Voltamata's just trying to get it away, right?

Speaker 17 It's still a brilliant header, but like Dowies is absolute pure. Like, he doesn't need to head it, but he's risen highest and he's put it in.

Speaker 17 And a notable mention for Chris Brass, I can't remember, maybe playing for Torque, who kicks the ball against his own face, I believe breaks his nose, and

Speaker 14 heads home in an FA.

Speaker 17 I think it's an FA Cup match. Really good stuff.
Just on Newcastle, Nadem. Like, there's slight issues about.
I mean, they're having a bit of a bad season.

Speaker 17 I know this is not being fit, but when you look at Volta Mada, 70 million, who did start brilliantly, scores like beautiful goals, but it's tailed off a little bit.

Speaker 17 Alanga hasn't hit the ground running. Jacob Ramsey was left on the bench 40 million.
Like, that's £150-odd million pounds of recruitment that hasn't clicked yet.

Speaker 1 I think my view on things like this is these signings are long-term signings.

Speaker 1 You'd want them to click and hit the ground running and be great for the lead third contracts four, five years, six years, whatever it's going to be. But in reality, that's very rarely the case.

Speaker 1 And I think with the quality of Newcastle have and other teams have had as well when new transfers come in, you can afford to not necessarily have them play so well.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Ramsey's one with injury and so on has been disappointing. I thought Alanga would have played more, to be honest.

Speaker 1 But then, lo and behold, I'm probably one of thousands of people that is just like disrespecting Murphy, who literally continues to get goals and assists for them essentially all the time.

Speaker 1 What does he do wrong? So, yeah, it's not great. I I think they're very much trapped in mid-table here.
It's really, really weird.

Speaker 1 But then we watch them play in the Champions League and get some good results in the Champions League as well. So, we almost raise our belief in them.

Speaker 1 Oh, these are a really good side because they can travel around Europe and get good results against good sides.

Speaker 1 But when it comes down to domestic football, 21 goals scored, 20 goals conceded, sitting exactly in mid-table. You know, welcome to the Premier League again.

Speaker 17 I guess Robin Jersen Moscara must have thought he'd scored like the most pivotal headed-owned goal of the weekend at about 9:45 on Saturday night. Poor Wolves.
I mean, they dug it.

Speaker 17 They got two points. They go to Arsenal, the top of the table.

Speaker 17 Arsenal aren't great, but Wolves play well, they defend well. And like,

Speaker 17 I don't know. Maybe just the release of that equaliser because it was like every player did his own individual knee slide wherever he happened to be on the pitch.

Speaker 17 And you think, oh, they've expended too much energy in this celebration.

Speaker 18 Yeah, no, it was absolutely heartbreaking, wasn't it, for them? And it probably was their best performance under Rob Edwards.

Speaker 18 What I would say is that I think I'm not that surprised because when you're facing top of the league, it's almost like no one gives them any chance whatsoever.

Speaker 18 So it sort of focuses the mind and maybe they do raise their game a bit. So I wouldn't be actually that surprised if they sort of reverted to type.
They've got Brentford next at home.

Speaker 18 And so this will raise, you know, Rob Edwards will be saying, you need to play like that again. And I'm just not sure if they will.

Speaker 18 But yeah, the manner of the defeat was absolutely heartbreaking because, yeah, they think they've got a point. As you say, the celebrations are amazing.
And then they score yet another own goal.

Speaker 14 They scored all the goals. They scored all the goals.
They scored all the goals. Every single goal.

Speaker 18 Yeah, I mean, the Johnston one, again, was just so, it's so unlucky, isn't it? Just, you know, off the post, off his back. Just how's your luck?

Speaker 1 So they celebrate that goal, their goal. Sorry, the goal that was helping them, not the other goal.
in a positive way because they've only scored nine all season.

Speaker 1 You know, that's something that we sort of take for granted sometimes.

Speaker 1 Like everybody's scoring, everybody's celebrating, but they're essentially, as far as football goals, just in the pits of hell right now. There's nothing good going for them whatsoever.
And I like to,

Speaker 1 unfortunately, I've had to look through this. When you're in around the bottom three, the most important thing is what's the gap to get out of the bottom three.

Speaker 1 And for them at the moment, it's 14 points. It's fair to say that morale probably is not going to be as high as it's ever been at Wolves.
So you do need to celebrate those like little moments.

Speaker 1 And people, they won't officially wrap themselves off yet. But after 16 games and you've not won one, the chances are that it's done.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 So you're going out and you're trying to find positives and so on. And now we're 1-1 with Arsenal.
What an incredible moment for us as bottom of the team. And then it's an on-go.
That game finishes.

Speaker 1 You go sit in the dressing room. Rob Edwards, who's in the grand scheme of things new to it, can try and speak of positives.
But for those players, like, what do you do?

Speaker 1 You're like a very, you're almost like the plus one that's been invited to this Premier League season.

Speaker 1 And, you know, you're kind of forgotten about they'll pull a little table to the side but you still know you you know you are at some point good enough to be there but you've got nothing going for you at all so like I say that's heartbreaking I've been in those situations where you've lost those games late and to snide goals or whatever but this is unfortunately the way that football goes and yeah for them it would be nice to see them potentially win a game except for I think when I was at QPR up until recently we had the record for most games to start a season without a win and I think it was around 15 16 it was around this time of year but we weren't on two points.

Speaker 14 I'll tell you that for a fact. We had a few more points than that.
Okay. Well, thanks to me Sheffield United took that, I think, three years ago.

Speaker 1 And now it seems like Wolves are well on the way to putting us third worst ever now.

Speaker 17 As for Arsenal, is this a sign of grinding out results? Or with City breathing down their necks? Would you as an Arsenal fan get slightly concerned? They lost to Villa.

Speaker 17 They were okay in that Villa game. They weren't great in this one.
You know, like,

Speaker 17 is this their little, you know, their little rut? And if they're winning in that rut, it's okay.

Speaker 14 I don't think this particular game was was a case of them grinding out results i think they got very lucky and

Speaker 14 you know take it

Speaker 14 take it forget about it put that performance behind you and move on

Speaker 14 yeah there's no doubt about it they were lucky here to win if this is the rut then what a nice rut to be in if you're still winning the games if i was michel artetta i'd be furious with that performance.

Speaker 14 I thought, I think I said last week, I thought he took the villa defeat on the chin and went, fair enough, we weren't terrible, we just lost and that happens.

Speaker 14 But if they dropped points here, I imagine he would have been furious. I'd say he's probably furious anyway, but there's no question they got lucky here.

Speaker 1 Arsenal, they're still, for me, they've been the most consistent team in the league so far this year, which is why it feels strange that they're only two points clear at the top of the table.

Speaker 1 But the run of fixtures that are coming up for them, I thought after the last international break, there was going to be a tough run and they were going to see where they were at based on that.

Speaker 1 And they went against Bayern Munich. I think the result against Chelsea fine, whatever, Hammered Spurs.

Speaker 14 So I thought they're in a good position.

Speaker 1 The next few games, and this is me looking at it, thinking, all of a sudden it feels a bit different. They've got Everton away next week at eight o'clock on a Saturday.
I think it is.

Speaker 1 Then at home to Brighton, at home to Villa again, away to Bournemouth, then at home to Liverpool.

Speaker 1 Whereas say two, three weeks ago, you can feel there's a sense of belief on they're just going to steamroll everyone.

Speaker 1 All of a sudden, you start making the case that maybe it's not going to be that easy. And I think the players and the manager know it's never going to be that easy.

Speaker 1 But for every time you show weakness or you show something that encourages the opposition, the opposition will take that opportunity and set up differently to play against you.

Speaker 1 And I think Arsenal is starting to drift towards that position. And obviously, they might still win the league title and so on.
And they need people behind them to be chasing.

Speaker 1 But this runner fixture is coming up now.

Speaker 1 Again, we'll test them in a manner which will really decide whether they are going to be Premier League champions or not, especially with the injuries and stuff that they have at this moment.

Speaker 17 Liverpool be Brighton 2-0. I mean, Robin, this game should be about Hugo Katike,

Speaker 17 but it's still all about Mo Salah. Like, whatever happened, like, if he, if Salah

Speaker 17 came on as he did and did okay, that's a story. If he started, that'd be a huge story.

Speaker 17 If he was on the bench and didn't come on, which is sort of the one, you know, we kind of wanted because it would have been funny. Like, that would have been a massive story.

Speaker 17 In the end, he comes on in the 26th minute. You feel for Joe Gomez, and everyone's going, Are you sure?

Speaker 17 Is this Joe just going, I've been asked to do this, but obviously, you know, that isn't what happened. It's a shame for him because, you know, he's had real injury problems.

Speaker 17 But it's still the Salah story. I just wondered what you made of

Speaker 17 this, you know, episode in the series.

Speaker 18 My main takeaway is I think Slot has played this absolutely brilliantly, perfectly, the way he's done this. What he's said has been sort of without ego.
He's been very adult about it.

Speaker 18 And he's not said much at all. He said kind of the bare minimum and he's kind of not closed the door on Salah and he's not added fuel to to the fire.

Speaker 18 I think what was surprising for me, I don't cover Liverpool that much, I'm not like involved in the club, I was quite surprised by the reception he got.

Speaker 18 It was kind of unanimously positive, wasn't it, from the from Inside Anfield. And I think that's

Speaker 18 just illustrates again how well Slott has done because he probably recognised that, that you can't, even though he's not indispensable anymore, Mo Salah, and rightly, you know, shouldn't be starting every single game, you kind of can't,

Speaker 18 as i say you kind of set fire to this situation because the fans still absolutely love him so i i just think slot has really been

Speaker 18 has been great and but he probably is thinking thank christ he's going now so i can kind of

Speaker 18 to the afghans and i can don't have to don't have to deal with this anymore i mean you know obviously he still can contribute um and he got an assist didn't he Yeah, so it's just, I feel like Slot deserves a lot of credit for this.

Speaker 17 I much love Nan at at Christmas, but who's really snied to you just in the 60s?

Speaker 17 And then when they leave at 5pm, you're like, ah, you can finally relax and enjoy the rest of the day.

Speaker 18 He's going to have a lie down now.

Speaker 17 I mean, I don't know if you saw this, Perry.

Speaker 17 Soccer Saturday did about five minutes of like raging debate about how happy or sad Mo Salah looked when he walked into Anfield and he was just sort of like, he just wasn't like grinning like a madman as he wandered into the place.

Speaker 17 But he did get a nice evasion. I guess the two things can be true at the same time.

Speaker 17 What he did was wrong and going public was wrong, but he can still be loved by the Liverpool fans because he is, you know, he is one of their greatest players of all time.

Speaker 17 And Liverpool have had some really good players during all time.

Speaker 14 They certainly have, yeah. I didn't see the

Speaker 14 five minutes of debate on soccer Saturday, but you know, they have a lot of time to fill on soccer Saturday. It's about an eight-hour show.
So that's fine.

Speaker 14 I am a keen student of players getting off the bus and walking into the stadium. Do they wear beats headphones? Do they wear buds? Are they chewing furiously?

Speaker 14 Do they shake hands with the waiting club officials? Do they steadfastly ignore them? Yeah, I think you can tell a lot about players by the way they get off the team bus. See also

Speaker 14 how they deal with mascots in the tunnel. Do they ignore them? Do they chat to them?

Speaker 14 Do they attempt to put them at their ease etc and so on but um that's me just being weird i guess or you auditioning for soccer saturday it sounded like to me

Speaker 14 yeah i mean look it's it's i suppose it's like a family member or what do they call it the kids call a friendship group if someone massively f's up you know you you bollock them out of it but you can't stay mad at them for long and you forgive them and welcome them back into the fold

Speaker 14 And it happens. People mess up all the time.

Speaker 14 So I totally get that.

Speaker 14 They might have been a bit annoyed with him, but there's no point in further antagonizing him. And he is more salah.
He has done a lot for them.

Speaker 14 Yeah.

Speaker 17 And he might. Oh, Nadem.
Hello.

Speaker 14 What comes after the?

Speaker 1 I'm going to start this off by saying, obviously, I'm not a Liverpool fan, so their perspective is going to be very different to say my one here. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But I think it's interesting this whole whole spell because it's shown that

Speaker 1 those goalposts that we thought were very much stuck in the ground actually have some wheels on them and they will move however you want depending on who it is because say from the perspective of what Salah came out and said a week ago like a lot of that stuff just by itself felt quite selfish within an instance where everyone else is trying to be selfless as they discuss their football club and a lot of people said that's wrong like they understood that he'd be upset based on his standing but they said it was wrong and he said it was wrong and he did something that was out in the public, and I'm all for forgiveness and so on.

Speaker 1 But I thought, well, obviously, Salah's going to apologise in the public as well then.

Speaker 1 But for me personally, I've not seen that. So the ability to move on that quickly, and then you wonder, well, what was his punishment?

Speaker 1 Well, he didn't travel to Milan midweek, but then he was still back in the squad for the week after.

Speaker 14 I think.

Speaker 1 I don't think every player gets afforded that sort of luxury.

Speaker 1 And if it's based on, say, what Salah has done to this point, then it kind of confirms what Salah was saying in his messaging anyway, that I've done so much that I should be starting.

Speaker 1 I've done so much that, you know, you can't treat me like this. And in some ways, that makes me feel

Speaker 1 a bit uncomfortable, like just a bit uncomfortable. But then, again, it shows, as I say, the goalpost will move if you like a player or if you don't.

Speaker 1 So then the next time we go the opposite way around a particular player that sounds disgruntled, well, we're just going to have to get called hypocrites because that's essentially what's happened.

Speaker 17 Yeah, but then I guess then it isn't a precedent because you can treat different players differently depending on how good they are, I guess.

Speaker 1 Listen, I'm 100% okay with that, yeah, but it's just when people say this is the standard, this is the way it should be, and I'm like, oh, come on, man, like, how about this or how about that?

Speaker 1 It just depends what your standing is.

Speaker 1 I think I do some work with like James Olcott, and he made a, he was making a discussion point about different types of player, and I thought it was a really good one because he said there's the, in fact, he used it in relation to workplaces, there are the newbies who are almost just happy to be there, there are the workers who, you know, do what they do and they're always like, you know, they can always be replaced and so on.

Speaker 1 Then there are the ones who are at that higher sort of tier.

Speaker 1 And for me personally, obviously I've I've never had the importance of like a Mo Sala to any football club, so I'm very much in the worker section.

Speaker 1 But when you start drifting down towards the worker section because your output isn't as great as say it has been in times gone by, then the way that you carry yourself should be looked at in a way of more of a worker as opposed to the person that's indispensable.

Speaker 14 Welcome to our club.

Speaker 1 But instead, it's the opposite.

Speaker 17 Someone throwing Mo Sala, a high viz and a shovel.

Speaker 14 Yeah, come over here, bro. Wait, we went longer.
I was over here, my friend. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Listen, everyone, I'm happy that he's happy, Liverpool, happy, so on and so so forth, but there's been a lot of contradiction in terms of how people have approached it because of the fact that it's Mo Seller, in my opinion.

Speaker 14 Sure, yeah.

Speaker 17 We'll have lots of time to talk Liverpool and not Mo Sella during Afcon. But yeah, well done, Hugo Katike.
You deserve more conversation than you got. And that'll do for part one.

Speaker 17 Part two, we'll begin with Aston Villa's continued rise.

Speaker 2 Hi, folks, it's Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman.

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Speaker 17 Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So, West Hand 2, Aston Villa 3.
Last four away games, Villa have gone behind in. They've come back to win.
This was their sixth win in a row.

Speaker 17 They are third. They're three points off Arsenal.
Nine wins in a row in all competitions, 15 wins in 17.

Speaker 17 This is a ridiculous run, Barry.

Speaker 14 And the talk now, and it's the chatter started last week when they beat Arsenal. Do we

Speaker 14 consider Villa to be title contenders? Are they in the conversation?

Speaker 14 And

Speaker 14 I would have said no,

Speaker 14 but the reason I would have said no last week, and I think I did say no, is because A, Villa don't win titles really. They've won one in my lifetime, I think.
That was a very long time ago.

Speaker 14 I would have been nine at the time. Another reason I would have said no is because having beaten Arsenal last week, going to West Ham and losing would be a typically Villa thing to do.

Speaker 14 And it looked like that was what was going to happen. But they showed great fortitude.

Speaker 14 Had a bit of help from West Ham, it must be said, but they showed great fortitude to come back and win. So, yeah, maybe they are in the conversation.
I think they have to be.

Speaker 14 But it's a remarkable run they're on. And we see other teams struggle with the Thursday-Sunday life balance.

Speaker 14 Villa don't seem to be having any problems with it at all. Unlike, say, Newcastle or Palace, who to that leap immediately to mind and Morgan Rogers Robin just

Speaker 18 oh that the second goal is just it just looks so effort he makes it look like every footballer should be able to do that every time they shoot yeah no he does and it the technique on it looks like it's deflected almost no it's he he's he's ridiculous I mean he's another one that's come through the sort of city academy isn't he and he's just he he he's fantastic he's having a great season and I think Tuca will start him I think you know that his body of work for England and for and for Aston Villa this season.

Speaker 18 I just think I know we'll come on to Spurs unfortunately Matt's but it's just like they

Speaker 18 obviously gifted West Ham a goal very early on didn't they as reconcili making a big mistake

Speaker 18 but they have that aura now and that momentum and that confidence that you think no they'll be all right they'll come back from this and and they did and uh I think yeah just in contrast to some other teams you just think oh you know the shoulders drop and all that you know know, they have a great squad.

Speaker 18 I think, yeah, that might be the only thing is that, you know, an injury to, say, a Rogers or someone who's really integral to them might put a stop to it.

Speaker 18 Also, I mean, I think it's still a bit of a concern. Ollie Watkins is still not...
firing in front of Goldberry, needs him to do a little bit more. But no, I mean,

Speaker 17 he was quite near Mavra Palace when he said that.

Speaker 18 Yeah, I think Mavra Palace would be fine to give that to him.

Speaker 18 As was Mascara, but yeah, no, and it's just lovely.

Speaker 17 isn't it lovely to see you and i emery jumping for joy i i like it i i enjoy that i mean i had a real barry moment for before the morgan rogers second when lindelof passed him and i was like hang on

Speaker 17 i had been told that i was like really anyway emery says we're not feeling under pressure we're feeling ambitious um we try to challenge in europe and in the premier league enjoy each match try to prepare then rest the players must be must feel comfortable doing it this is the process we're doing now it's manchester united uh next sunday meanwhile west ham lovely tributes to Billy Bonds before the game.

Speaker 17 They got Man City away next. And are you worry for West Ham, Nadum? I mean, you do, don't you? Because

Speaker 17 it looks like there are two slots comfortably filled, Wolves and, you know, Burnley, if that's not too harsh on Burnley. And then West Ham are, you know,

Speaker 17 they're there, aren't they?

Speaker 1 They are there, but they're also three points behind Leeds. Are you back in Leeds 100% to be...

Speaker 17 Not 100%. That would be quite bold at this time.

Speaker 14 Yeah.

Speaker 14 I'm not worried for them.

Speaker 1 Do you know what? No,

Speaker 1 I'm not incredibly worried for them. I think they can find a good run of form.
And there's some teams who are sliding down the table sneakily without,

Speaker 1 you know, we were kind of getting away with it at the moment. So, say, for example, Bournemouth play United tonight, but Bournemouth was just on 20 points.

Speaker 1 They're on one of the worst runs in the league. But because, you know, we like the manager and, you know, we like their attacking football, everything's fine.

Speaker 1 We don't really give them, pay them too much mind. And then Brentford as well, they're on 20 points.

Speaker 1 So West Ham, within the space of, say, a good week's worth of football, which is very doable around December, January time, you could find yourself in a better situation. But I don't think, for me,

Speaker 1 the bar as such is how you're doing against Villa, who are the form side in the whole division. So

Speaker 1 I'm quite calm on that. But yeah, it is tight, it is tense down there.
And is it, did you guys see some news article about there being a ban on like half and half scarves at the London Stadium?

Speaker 1 Have you seen that?

Speaker 17 I've not seen it. I'm not against it.
I mean, I think it seems extreme, but

Speaker 1 it's half and half West Ham Villa, half and half scarf that's seems like a lost leader to me yeah my sister yeah my sister sent me the thing and initially I thought oh that you know that has to be fake obviously because like a half and half scarf for as much as most of us don't really get them or would want to have them like to be banning them feels like it's a bit much you know what I mean I feel like they're probably bigger and more pressing issues that go on the West Ham board need to get it or exactly yeah I was like oh maybe this is like a political diversion and there's some distraction and there's something else happening somewhere but yeah if if that's where we're at to where like, the biggest issue at the stadium is, you know, the half and half scarves, then maybe I will be a bit more concerned.

Speaker 14 This is like David Sullivan rattling his car keys.

Speaker 14 Look at the shiny, look at the shiny.

Speaker 17 Although producer Joel did once have a great idea of a half and half scarves with me and Barry's face on, which didn't sell as well as he hoped on the internet.

Speaker 14 So there are, by the way, about 50,000 of those in Guardian Towers

Speaker 14 cluttering up the sports desk. If you want any, Max, for Chris to give cheer

Speaker 14 ears for Christmas.

Speaker 17 I'm fine, but you know, what's the merchandise page? Come on, we should start selling them again online feverishly. Go and buy one.

Speaker 14 There's some famous bar in New York. I can't remember what it's called, but it's full of sports memorabilia.

Speaker 14 And a friend of mine gave them a Barry and Max half and half scarf, and it's up on the wall.

Speaker 14 Oh, good.

Speaker 17 I'm pleased. It's not just there.
It's an emergency toilet brush. Let's go to South S Park, Palestine City 3.

Speaker 17 Oliver Glasner said afterwards that City were better in and around both boxes, which I feel, Robin, is important in football. I mean, he is right, isn't he?

Speaker 17 Because both sides had chances, but Haaland's header is brilliant. Foden's finish is brilliant.
And there you are. And then City win the game.

Speaker 18 Yeah, it wasn't a 3-0. You didn't feel when you actually watched it.
When I saw the score, I thought, well, okay, they've been, you know, comfortably beaten here.

Speaker 18 But Palace had a lot of chances, didn't they? And it just shows that the Man City sort of machine isn't quite there in terms of maybe out of possession.

Speaker 18 I mean, Adam Wharton, again, was afforded too much space. He was playing those beautiful outside-of-the-boot passes as he did against Fulham.
Pinot hit the bar, Wharton off the post. I think

Speaker 18 they had quite a few chances, but then, yeah, Haaland,

Speaker 18 as we've seen so many times, does very little.

Speaker 14 And then a great header.

Speaker 18 Foden with a great finish. The accuracy he has with his left foot is incredible.

Speaker 18 The highlight for me, though, was Thomas Tuchel and his bag of sweets. Yeah.

Speaker 14 He was really searching. A long time, didn't he? A long time.

Speaker 18 That suggests to me that, yeah, no, he didn't choose those himself. So he was really rooting around for the ones that he wanted.

Speaker 18 And it seemed like there was very few in there that really tickled his fancy. It was like looking for the egg for the Harry Bow or the Love Heart.

Speaker 14 And there was a lot of money.

Speaker 17 Who's his Phil Neal? Who's his Anthony Barry? You've got the wrong pick and mix.

Speaker 14 I suspect that was a

Speaker 14 media center pick and mix bag. Some press rooms, they leave out bags of sweets.
So, and that's the kind of bag it is, the white and red stripe or pink stripes.

Speaker 17 So, this is the sort of insight people come to this podcast for.

Speaker 14 By the way, on the subject of press box house or media room hospitality, congratulations to all at Sunderland for what was a wonderful, I'm not a turkey fan, but turkey and bacon pie with mash and pigs in blankets and gravy for lunch yesterday.

Speaker 14 Lovely.

Speaker 17 Thank you, Barry.

Speaker 17 Sorry to bring it back to football, Nadan, but on that, on that England 10 situation where you have all these Man City graduates of Rogers, Palmer, and Foden, and then you have Bellingham as well.

Speaker 17 I don't need you to rank them, but it's an interesting, it's a, it's a, is it a good problem to have? I think if as a manager, I'd rather just have one really brilliant one and it was just obvious.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so I think it, I think, in some ways it is a problem, but it's only a problem because, in my opinion, Harry Kane is the one that affects them more than any other.

Speaker 1 I think if Harry Kane was more of like a traditional number nine, he wouldn't be coming short with the, and have his passing range and so on, and was essentially playing on the shoulder with the finishing that he has.

Speaker 1 Then I think you could take a pick of any of those tens and sort of decide which game was the right one for them.

Speaker 1 But then instead, it's more so a case of, well, who can complement Harry Kane's tendencies you know I could be off the mark with that Thomas Tuchel might see it a different way but if you've got say like the tens that will always come short and try and look for those three balls if you're doing that then you look up and Harry Kane's standing alongside you says well who's this going to go to instead you know seeing Phil Folden doing well seeing Morgan Rogers doing well seeing Cole Palmer get back in this weekend and score a goal as well and you know this forgets even the likes people who've had a chance before like Morgan Gibbs White for example and Jude Bellingham although Ramadan at their absolute best when you see some of his dynamism you're thinking okay this guy's like, he's back here.

Speaker 1 So all of a sudden, like Tuchel does have too many of them.

Speaker 1 Again, because of the fact you're trying to compliment Harry Kane, and it'll be a shame because I reckon probably three of those guys aren't even going to

Speaker 1 get in the squad for the summer. And it's a case of, well, who's that going to be? Sure.

Speaker 17 And if England don't win, brackets when England don't win, that'll be what we can throw at Tuchel.

Speaker 14 He can't win unless he wins, I guess.

Speaker 17 Let's go, sadly, to the city ground for Notting Forest 3's Spurs-and it feels like, and maybe, I don't think this is just my Spurs bias.

Speaker 17 However hard we tried to give Forest credit for this win, and they were brilliant in this game, it will turn into a Spurs inquest robin because when they are bad, they are so bad. It's sort of

Speaker 17 like they do nothing, like nothing. They just all just sort of limply wander about and it just sort of become this like the sort of amoeba just sort of flopping around the football pitch.

Speaker 14 It's extraordinary.

Speaker 18 Yeah, Joe Hart said on a match the day, it's like when they lose, it is ugly, isn't it? This is the problem. It's not like there's never a glorious defeat, it is bad, it is, it's it's bad, and

Speaker 18 yeah, I mean,

Speaker 18 so I don't want to blame Archie Gray for that goal, okay, because he looks like 10 years old.

Speaker 18 No, but I don't want to, he's asked, yes, he's asking for it, but does he have to, does the Vicario have to give it to him?

Speaker 1 He could play it one touch, he could play it one touch, yeah, across to the side.

Speaker 14 That's the issue, he's just he looks he looks like 10 years old, I just don't want it, but anyway,

Speaker 17 and he's played really well recently.

Speaker 18 He looks so sad, yeah, so sad, but you know, I mean, it could could have been oh this sounds a bit like trump then wasn't it

Speaker 14 um

Speaker 18 i mean he could have been they could have had more goals couldn't they not see and forrest they it was just yeah it was a proper collapse and yeah they've spurs haven't won two in a row in the premier league since the opening two games in august and i'm massively biased because i adore thomas frank as a manager and also as a person i've dealt with him a lot and but it just seems like And again, I don't know if Nadum has an opinion on this, but I'm just worried.

Speaker 18 When a coach comes from a so-called smaller smaller club, which Brentford are,

Speaker 18 I don't think you're afforded as much time, certainly by the supporters, because they're like, well, the job's too big for him. But is that the same as the players as well?

Speaker 18 I don't know.

Speaker 14 I don't know.

Speaker 1 It's a great question.

Speaker 14 It's a great question.

Speaker 17 Finally, on this part, a great question.

Speaker 14 Yes,

Speaker 1 it took 40 minutes, but it's a great question.

Speaker 14 We're here now.

Speaker 14 We're here now.

Speaker 14 Took eight years, Nathan.

Speaker 14 True, true, true, true.

Speaker 1 Unfortunately, I think as I see Spurs right now, it's starting to feel a little bit like how, say, for example, somebody thought of like Graeme Potter when he was at Chelsea, or you could argue, maybe this matters may sound like a Nuno that you've seen before at Spurs.

Speaker 1 But Spurs are trapped in this position to where they're not, you know, one of those teams that's going to be winning the league as such, but they carry a level of expectation that...

Speaker 1 you know, you need to have some level of gravitas almost.

Speaker 1 And Thomas Frank, from what I'm hearing, is like an incredible guy, you know, really like thoughtful coach in terms of how he wants to do things but it's not really driving the impact and the outcomes that say they need as a side because they as you look at say some of the teams up near the top now one thing about them is like they can all outplay you and so on but they're all like really tough and physical and when they want to go to battle and so on but when spurs do collapse you're right it is really really poor and to add to that Because to link, I don't know if you actually see this the same way, Max, but there was a point a couple of years ago where it says, well, you know, we've had Conte, we've had Mourinho, but what we want, we want attacking football.

Speaker 1 There are times under Thomas Frank where the game will be finished, and I know everyone's into XG, but it might say like 0.3. And you're like, well, what was that?

Speaker 1 That was somebody that like had a shot in the 10th minute of the game from 12 yards out and it got blocked. That's the highlight of the attacking potential that's there.

Speaker 1 And when the defensive side of things also isn't there, then ultimately you're watching a game of long throws and set pieces, which I'm sure isn't necessarily what most sports fans would want.

Speaker 1 Would you say that's fair, Max Rushdon?

Speaker 17 I think that's fair. Yeah, afterwards he said in terms of, he said, I think it's pretty evident that if no one gets the time, no one can turn this around.
This is not a quick fix.

Speaker 17 Today was a very bad performance. No two ways about that.
But also know that to change this, this will take some time. No one won't want to hear about that.
It's just reality.

Speaker 17 Which, Barry, is what I would say if I was a manager under pressure.

Speaker 14 I wanted to stay.

Speaker 17 I mean, I don't disagree. Like, it's matter.
You can't, well, you can get rid. I don't know.

Speaker 17 They win enough to go, oh, maybe it's different. You know, they'd run the last two and you're, okay, maybe.
And then they just do, then they just

Speaker 14 throw out this pancake. Well, it's Spurs, isn't it? It's textbook.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 14 You see, it's all very well saying you need time and we'll get to Celtic later, I guess. But other managers can do, perform heroics without needing time.

Speaker 14 And, you know, we famously have, you know, Barney pointing out that Thomas Tuku came into

Speaker 14 Chelsea and sorted them out in an afternoon with their defense into shape. So not everyone needs time.

Speaker 14 And

Speaker 14 I only saw highlights of this game, but watching Frank being interviewed afterwards,

Speaker 14 he was asked if he's under pressure,

Speaker 14 asked again, are you still under pressure? And he said, well, it's not just me under pressure. It's me, it's my staff, it's the players, it's everyone at the club.

Speaker 14 And I'm thinking, no, Thomas, it's very much you. You're under pressure because they're not going to sack the team.
The board aren't going to sack themselves.

Speaker 14 So it's him that's going to be shoved out into a hail of bullets, no matter how many or how much blame there is to go around.

Speaker 14 I really like Thomas Frank. I want him to succeed.
I thought he would succeed. And he just seems to have

Speaker 14 met his match in Spurs and everything that club stands for.

Speaker 18 I think we probably should give credit to Nottingham Forest. I think Forest fans might be shouting at us just because, you know, they were great.

Speaker 18 And, I mean, the Sangari goal was lovely cutting across. He's obviously going to Afcon.
I just wonder with Sean Deish,

Speaker 18 and also Everton fans

Speaker 18 might be angry at me, but is this like the best squad he's had to work with? Especially forward areas. They've got attacking, like really good attacking talent.

Speaker 18 Just wonder what he can do, you know, with Nottingham Forest.

Speaker 17 And they were playing lovely, they were, I mean, they weren't playing anything, but they were playing lovely football. Like, they were playing like really crisp one-touch passing on the deck.

Speaker 17 It was not Daishi, and it was, this is really impressive. And, you know, the way Match of the Day broke down, sort of their press and stuff, I thought, yeah, I mean, you'd be really enthused.

Speaker 14 And I mean, I wasn't enthused because I was watching it from a very, very biased perspective.

Speaker 17 It is worth reading out Tottenham's tweet from yesterday, where they said, look, given today's horrific events in Sydney, we recognize wishing our Jewish fans a happy Hanukkah may seem hollow at this incredibly difficult time.

Speaker 17 The story of Hanukkah reminds us that even in darkness we can find the light we stand alongside our Jewish communities and pray for peace and unity across the world while sending our deepest condolences to those who've lost loved ones

Speaker 17 football weekly has a big audience in Australia it has been rocked this country the worst mass shooting in three decades and we echo everything that Spurs said there one of the victims was a footballer in the NPL which is a few levels below the A-leg in New South Wales for a team called Rockdale Illendon player called Dan Alkayam and I just just saw a tweet from a friend of mine who works in football over here called Nick Stoll, who just says, Dan was on my six-aside team.

Speaker 17 We were meant to play tonight. It was an honor to know and play with him like so many.
He came to Australia and made it a better place with his presence. All love to his family and friends.

Speaker 17 Football in Bondi, especially a place which has so many nationalities, is such a beautiful theme because it allows so many of us to connect so easily, despite any cultural or language barriers.

Speaker 17 To be able to connect with Dan while he was here is something I will treasure. It's just totally heartbreaking.

Speaker 17 And our heart is with every single one of those victims and their families and friends and we'll be back in a second.

Speaker 2 Hi folks, it's Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman.

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Speaker 17 Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. To Stamford Bridge, then Chelsea 2 Everton-IL, a sort of regulation, uninteresting, unsurprising win.

Speaker 17 And then Mareska afterwards, Barry comes out and says, Since I joined the club, the last 48 hours have been the worst because many people didn't support us.

Speaker 17 A lot of people kept saying this is a very cryptic message, but it sounds to me like he had a really bad couple of days.

Speaker 14 I don't know what you think. Well, we, you know, we all have bad days.

Speaker 14 I'm as mystified as anyone else by the comments. For him to roll that grenade out at his post-match presser and then refuse to clarify what he meant

Speaker 14 seemed a bit odd. It seems like he's

Speaker 14 picking a fight with the Chelsea hierarchy. And if that's the case, it's a fight he almost certainly won't win.
Part of me was thinking he's going to get sacked on Monday.

Speaker 14 And he probably won't.

Speaker 17 There's still time.

Speaker 14 There is still time. It's still very early on Monday.
Yeah, I'd say the Chelsea offices have only just opened. Watch this space, I suppose.

Speaker 14 We'll find out in due course, presumably,

Speaker 14 what his problem is, but I have no idea.

Speaker 14 So

Speaker 14 I couldn't even hazard a guess.

Speaker 18 Did anyone ask his dad what

Speaker 18 his fisherman dad, what was his worst 48 hours?

Speaker 17 Of course. Oh, imagine that storm in the

Speaker 17 Aegean, maybe? No, that's the wrong side. Isn't it? Oh, I don't know.
Anyway, the Med. Call it the Med, Max.

Speaker 17 I suppose it's interesting, I was talking about this on the radio nadium, and quite a lot of Chelsea season ticket holders sort of unsolicited got in touch with the show to say, we hate the football we are playing right you know it's not a show where I you know ask for those messages to come in so it's quite interesting that they did and

Speaker 17 he said he was happy with the fans but the fans aren't necessarily happy with him maybe he feels like he doesn't get supported given the board have given them all these teenagers and he's actually carved out something sort of reasonably good if inconsistent Yeah,

Speaker 1 I think reasonably good is probably nice. To be fair, no, they're better than reasonably good.

Speaker 14 They're a good side.

Speaker 1 They are a good side. Even, say, a couple of weeks ago, going down to 10 and getting a result against Arsenal, that shows that they are built to be robust in any particular game of football.

Speaker 1 And for the fans who say they don't like the type of football, like I don't watch every Chelsea game to be able to say that this is the reason why, and so on.

Speaker 1 But when I watch them, they feel like they're solid and you know, at times they can be really creative as well. It wasn't too long ago when they were, you know, pretty close to being top of the table.

Speaker 1 So, I suppose some of the recent results have been disappointing to a certain extent, but I don't know. It just feels like it's

Speaker 1 it was the, I think they didn't like Mareska, I think around this time last year, I believe.

Speaker 1 And then the season finished with them winning the Club World Cup and whether some people accept it or don't accept it, lifting a trophy for your club is always going to, you know, put you in the history books as such.

Speaker 1 So then I thought that was more of a positive. And going into this next season, again, with that young squad, as you've mentioned, it seemed like they were doing fine, if not well.

Speaker 1 But if there's discontent and so on there, then it's a shame.

Speaker 1 And I think for the manager, as Barry said there, to be sending out those sort of like cryptic messages, you know, one of those ones where where this will make sense in time it's not really one of those things which means it will make sense in a positive manner for his relationship with the club as such I'm sure the fans will be keen to figure out what he's talking about as well because as you probably mentioned and heard on your radio show not that many people probably in a position to support him because maybe his face just hasn't really fit regardless of how well they've played how much relative success they've had Maybe they're just

Speaker 1 not having it.

Speaker 17 I quite like the idea of managers in press conferences going, I'm going to say something now, which will make sense in some time. And then carrying on.

Speaker 17 But Malo Gusto was very good in this game, scored a goal. Wonderful pass for Carl Palmer as well.
Everton did okay at the start.

Speaker 17 Bit of a shame for Kieran Jewsbury Hall to come off against his former club. Lack of firepower.
Beto a Barry once again, sort of letting them down a bit.

Speaker 14 In terms of Everton, Dave Arsenal next, and I would have fancied them at home. You'd kind of fancy them to give Arsenal a game.

Speaker 14 Everton are good on their day, but they've lost Kieran Jewsbury Hall to a Hammy. So that's, what, five or six weeks, and Iliman and Jai and Idrissa Gay are off to Afcon.

Speaker 14 Could be a tricky Christmas for Everton. I keep trying to do Everton down

Speaker 14 in the hope they live up to my prediction of finishing 19th, which is looking sillier

Speaker 14 and sillier. But,

Speaker 14 you know, Everton will be fine by the end of the season. But this, the next few weeks could be tricky enough.

Speaker 14 I think Ilimin and Jai is criminally underrated because Jack Grealish tends to get all the attention when I think Ilimin and Jai is as good, if not better, than Grealish.

Speaker 17 Yeah, I don't disagree with that. Full of Monica Burnley, they hadn't done that since the 50s.
34 attempts to win. Archie was tweeting going, we'll never win this game.

Speaker 17 Seven defeats in a row for Burnley, their worst run for 130 years. And look, they're in games, aren't they, Robin? Like Burnt Leno had to be really quick of his line about eight times to foil Burnley.

Speaker 17 They're in games, but then they let in these soft goals, and you think, oh, it's just not going to quite happen for Scott Parker, who's so sort of resolute.

Speaker 17 He's becoming even more sort of army captain, isn't he, as the days go on?

Speaker 18 Yeah, this post match, yeah. No, he really is.

Speaker 18 Yeah, no, they're just a little bit short, aren't they?

Speaker 18 You know, they're making a sort of, I feel like they're performing as well as they can.

Speaker 18 But yeah, I mean, that some of the goals were not, I mean, some of the defending, I mean, Alan Shearer was kind of, his head was exploding, wasn't it?

Speaker 18 Some of them, you know, the corner that basically Wilson passed it to

Speaker 14 Smith Rowe. Around the ground.
Around the ground.

Speaker 18 I think we should see that more, though, actually. I think that might catch more people out, the sort of low, low cross, to see what happens.
But yeah, but Harry Wilson.

Speaker 17 So nice, isn't he? So, so easy on the eye, isn't he?

Speaker 18 Yep, he's playing like a player in the last year of his contract.

Speaker 14 Call me cynical.

Speaker 18 Call me cynical. But the best bit of this game was Calvin Bassey nearly doing a nadimanooha.

Speaker 18 So close.

Speaker 14 So coming close to the forum.

Speaker 17 He had so much more than Nadema.

Speaker 14 That's like that. And he was able to run back and forth.

Speaker 18 Nadem had the finish.

Speaker 14 And my God, this finish, it was, I mean, I think it's still, it's still spooned over there. It's still going.
It was on the left.

Speaker 17 It was so good. It reminded me, Robin, of in the NFL when like an offensive lineman accidentally gets the ball by mistake and then runs 80 yards.

Speaker 17 And then it's like sort of like taken on one of those airport mobility scooters with oxygen.

Speaker 14 It's like Calvin Bassini did that. He was like,

Speaker 17 it was amazing.

Speaker 18 He did the chop, the chop to make room for the shot.

Speaker 14 And then the shot was just so bad. It was great.

Speaker 1 I've got to say, by the way, he does do that more often than you think, you know.

Speaker 1 And having seen him play for Nigeria as well, like he, let's make Nigeria have a summer off this summer and focus on things in the future.

Speaker 14 Focus on the league anyway.

Speaker 14 Yeah,

Speaker 14 let's focus on the league, yeah.

Speaker 1 He does go on these runs very often and like the finish itself, I was devastated for him because I've seen him score some like even good goals from there.

Speaker 17 but he should pass the ball there are two people at the back post waiting for a tap in but yeah when calvin bassie goals like that yeah it's exciting he does does it so often does it so well you don't want to get in his way that is for sure drt says even as a leads fan i'd have the sky super sunday game last of your running order and everyone forgets what actually happened uh yeah jordan henderson scored late on dominic calvert lewin equalized four and four for him which is nice but we won't talk about that because we should talk about celtic and so mirror winning the scottish league cup disco weapon says says are Celtic the worst thing to happen to Nancy since Bill Sykes you enjoyed that Robin as a

Speaker 17 great question

Speaker 17 I mean listen we should praise St Mirren Barry it's one of those where we have to praise St.

Speaker 17 Mirren go they were great in this game I was very spicy surprised to see sort of lone failure at Cambridge Dan Lundaloo causing all sorts of havoc for the Celtic back line up front

Speaker 17 but what a wonderful moment for them and I think their manager lost twice as motherwell managerly against Celtic in cup finals. If I'm correct me if I'm wrong, Stephen Robinson.
Yeah, he was.

Speaker 17 Oh, just the scenes were brilliant at full time for St. Mirren.

Speaker 14 Yeah, they were dancing on the streets of St. Mirren last night.
It's a brilliant result for them.

Speaker 14 Very well run fan-owned club from Paisley in Scotland. This is only their second League Cup win, and they scored two beauties in this game actually.

Speaker 14 Jonah, younger, got a brace. Second one was really good.
I I thought.

Speaker 14 As usual,

Speaker 14 the discourse is all about Celtic.

Speaker 14 I did see you and Murray wrote a very good match report on this game, I thought, but the focus was on Celtic, and it always is because Celtic are the biggest

Speaker 14 ticket in town when it comes to Scottish football.

Speaker 14 So, with

Speaker 14 apologies to St. Mirren, because I don't think we really covered it at the time.
We never got around to it.

Speaker 14 The famous Celtic AGM of a few weeks ago, when the Celtic board and Dermot Desmond's son, Ross, showed the most astonishing arrogance to the fans who had taken the time to turn up to this AGM, wanted to ask questions.

Speaker 14 Now, the fans didn't do themselves any favor by behaving quite poorly at the start of the meeting, but it was quickly abandoned.

Speaker 14 Ross Desmond gave this awful speech, just the entitlement, the arrogance, the dismissiveness with regard to Celtic fans. The Celtic are an absolute dog's breakfast at the moment.

Speaker 14 They hired this guy, Wilfred Nancy,

Speaker 14 and he, Ewan pointed out in his report on this game, that they appointed him with little or no fanfare, almost as if they were embarrassed by how low profile he is and how possibly a signal or a sign they're worried he will fail.

Speaker 14 And he's only been there, I don't know a week he's had three games Celtic have lost all three of them they've conceded eight goals got beaten by hearts in the league they got walloped by Roma in the Europa league and now they've lost this cup final to St.

Speaker 14 Mirren and people are wondering you know they had Martin O'Neill in his interim manager he did a great job steadying the ship he understands Celtic he understands Celtic fans why didn't they leave him in charge for this quite important week and then let Wilfrid Nancy

Speaker 14 take over? Now, it's far too early to judge him, but the early indications are that he doesn't quite know what he's got himself into. His press conferences have been very unconvincing.

Speaker 14 A lot of sort of corporate management speak that says a lot, but doesn't really say much at the same time. But yeah, it's too early to judge.
But Celtic are a mess. And

Speaker 14 the only

Speaker 14 sort of thing in their favor is that Rangers are also a mess. So we'll see how it goes.
But again, it's St. Mirren we should be talking about.
I'm not going to lie. I know little or nothing about St.

Speaker 14 Mirren.

Speaker 14 Before yesterday, I couldn't name one of their players.

Speaker 14 But hats off to them. It clearly meant an awful lot to them.
Yeah.

Speaker 17 And to see them celebrating in front of their fans at Hamden at the end was was lovely yeah he uh nancy's come from columbus crew um has a good reputation mls uh you and murray saying a two-minute glance at celtic squad tells you they don't have guys to play the system nancy wants sticking with that system just because that's what you do isn't single-minded it's outright daft although it does sound like a Celtic manager they had previously who was quite successful, doesn't it?

Speaker 17 Anyway, yeah, and he also got some stick for having a little tactics board, which did look like Travel Othello. And, you know,

Speaker 17 don't know, I haven't played Othello for a while, but you know, quite enjoyed that as a kid. But, you know, you can't knock a guy for having a tactics board if you're a football manager, can you?

Speaker 17 Unless you're playing Sunday League, in which case, totally unacceptable.

Speaker 17 Anyway, that'll do for today.

Speaker 17 We are recording our Christmas Eve mailbag special on Wednesday. We need your questions.
It is me, Barry, Jonathan Wilson, and John Bruin.

Speaker 17 You can ask them anything about football, past, present, and future, or anything at all. Questions to football weekly at theguardian.com.

Speaker 17 And we'll be asking over on our Instagram and BlueSkyX, etc., etc. But for the time being, thank you, everybody.

Speaker 14 Thank you, Robin. Thanks, Max.

Speaker 17 Thanks, Nathan.

Speaker 1 Cheers, big fellow.

Speaker 17 Cheers, Baz. Thank you.

Speaker 14 Yeah, that hour flew. Is it just me, or did that really fly?

Speaker 14 That's a good sign, I think, isn't it?

Speaker 17 Well, it's the first time you've enjoyed a pod in eight years.

Speaker 14 So there we go.

Speaker 17 Football Weekly is produced by Joe Grove. Our executive producer is Daniel Stevens.
We'll be back tomorrow.

Speaker 1 This is The Guardian.

Speaker 2 Hi, folks, it's Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman.

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