The Club World Cup kicks off and Thomas Frank in at Spurs - Football Weekly

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Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

The wait is over.

The Club World Cup begins.

A goalless draw and a 10-0, exactly how you'd want it to start.

It looks a bit like the World Cup with players in club kits, the sun beating down as some of these exhausted players look surprisingly sprightly.

PSG, keep on keeping on, buy and batter some Kiwi amateurs and so far ice haven't invaded the pitch to deport a Botofogo fullback.

Other football's also happening.

England under 21s and under 19s in action.

Then what, of course, some Spurs, Thomas Frank announced as head coach at the end of last week.

Then there's Florian Vertz, Trent secretly learning another language.

Es untredor, no se.

We'll talk Gennaro Gattuso taking over the Italian national team and some very exciting news about our request for the Football Weekly review podcast Football Weekly Weekly.

As always, we'll answer your questions, and that's today's Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, welcome.

Hello, hello, Nikki Bandini.

Morning.

And from the racing post, Mark Langdon.

Hi, Max.

To the Club World Cup, then Tom says, Are you being forced to watch this?

Blink twice, etc.

The opening games, it began with a goldest drawer.

Quite a good game, actually, between Al Ali and Inter Miami.

Then Bayern hammered Auckland city 10-0 psg hammered athleti 4-0 palmaris and porto uh drew 0-0 and botofogo 2 seattle sounders one ewen says could the club world cup perhaps be two tiered so smaller teams like auckland city and athletico madrid don't get clobbered four plus nil tolly says have auckland city had a particularly long season did you predict 10 0 barry what did you make of that one uh i don't know if i predicted 10 0 i i predicted a hiding for them i i think you've skipped over possibly the most important part or completely ignored it, Max, in the opening ceremony,

which was, I thought, was quite fun.

Gianni and Fantino, obviously, front and centre.

Some VIPs there in the form of David Beckham.

Robbie Williams has some sort of

musical ambassadorial role.

The theme was a new era begins.

And we had music from the Latina dance song artist Vikinha,

also known as Miss 305, or maybe it's 305, I'm not sure.

French Montana, the rapper,

performed Unforgettable with Sway Lee,

which I thought was quite a decent tune.

It sent me down a

French Montana rabbit hole, and I was quite impressed.

And then they had 32 mascots bringing out the individual crests of each participating club and putting them in a giant FIFA sign, which I believe will be retired to

FIFA HQ in wherever it is, Switzerland, somewhere,

when the tournament ends.

And they had the cinema guy, you know, cinema adverts in a world.

Oh, yes.

It sounded like him saying, A new legacy will be built.

Welcome to the FIFA World Club World Cup 2025.

Let's make

history.

And then Al Ali and Interim Miami made history by drawing the first game of FIFA Club World Cup 2.0 nil-nil.

But it was a decent 0-0, I would say.

And Al-Alli

surprisingly had more support in the stands and fears that the stadium wouldn't be full were allayed there was it was almost full to capacity and al-ali from egypt seemed to have more supporters there than intra miami which seemed surprising but uh yeah i would say it was a a decent nil-nil niki i don't know how much of it you've consumed so far but what have you made of it the first game i've watched the full 90 of was the game between psg and athletico yesterday which when i think of that it feels a bit rubbish doesn't it because the club world cup i should be making more of a time to watch the full 90 minutes the other games but i caught a bit of the um of the our alle uh into miami game and and it seems like that was in many ways the most interesting game so far actually um i know it goes the the two keepers were the only real reason that stated now though it seemed like that was actually quite a um an entertaining game and i think perhaps um given that it's kind of a leo messy game there was a bit of an eye-opener for for some of the more casual fans coming to this tournament perhaps that actually are like there's some really good teams from from elsewhere in the planet that that are going to show up and and not be just completely cowed by the presence of an aging Leo Messi.

The PSG game against Atletico was definitely interesting in some senses.

I think it was interesting from the fact that very immediately from the lineup, you can see the PSG are taking this seriously.

It's not that they're there for

a summer jaunt.

They feel a very strong lineup and they play like the team that just won the Champions League very confidently.

I mean, they were far, far better than Atletico.

At the same time,

it kind of was by the end walking pace um it definitely faded in a way that i would say that while it's easy to say oh yeah well it was 4-0 yeah but did you watch psg at the end of last season they weren't taking the foot off the gas for anybody even when they were 4-0 abs so i think that it definitely has got a slightly odd in-between feeling to it at the moment and i think maybe that will go a little bit by the end of the tournament but it is just

i don't know it's it's just a lot isn't it i mean i i think there is for a lot of people, certainly those of us who cover the game professionally, there is a certain amount of end of season fatigue right now.

And I think there is some of the players playing the game.

I think there is a certain amount for some of those players of, okay, like, yes, we're here in this competition.

We want to win it.

And I think especially PSG very clearly want to come there and

consolidate this moment of theirs by saying we're not just the European champions, we're the world champions.

And I think they probably will be.

But I think that you still see on the pitch, and I think probably you saw it more on the Athletico side, given they were getting walloped as well.

This certain sense of, oh, okay, now we've got to keep going for another however many weeks this turns out to be.

It did look very hot.

Yeah, it was hot.

Yeah.

I mean, David says, anyone else transported back to the summer of 94 by the sight of a sun-drenched Pasadena rose bowl?

And I did get that vibe, didn't it?

Yeah, look, PSG were excellent in that game, and like Athletic had a couple of chances, and they had a chance just before PSG scored their second.

But yeah, it really was.

It was an excellent performance from PSG.

It just made me feel like I was sort of watching a World Cup.

What did you make of Bayern Auckland,

Mark?

I enjoyed it.

I do.

You don't want too many 10-0s, but the odd 10-0,

I sometimes wonder why sort of these really strong sides don't end up hammering the minnows.

I mean, it was only last week people were bemoaning England's lacklustre

1-0 win over Andorra.

I mean, Bayern Munich scored nine against Dino Zagreb in the Champions League, and I think it was at the stadium when they scored seven against Tottenham.

So it's not like they, you know, this is a kind of complete one-off.

Bayern, much like PSG, seemed there to win.

It was a very strong team.

I was love the fact that Harry Kane didn't score any of the goals.

Yeah, that's very funny.

That was probably the moment of the Club World Cup so far.

If Auckland weren't there, there'd probably be people maybe on this pod saying, well, football's for everyone.

And, you know, you've got to allow the champions from all of the continents to play.

And then when they get beat 10-0, there'll be people saying they devalue the competitions.

I think it's a really difficult spot to know what to do with such a small continent where there aren't sort of any teams worthy of playing really at this level.

I mean, I guess the quirk is that because Australia play in the Asian Confederation, that you know, that you can't just have, you know, basically the team that came top of the ALE, which was Auckland FC, rather, who are a professional football team, you know, whose goalkeeper's actually gone to Bournemouth, who was on loan, is brilliant.

You know, they've got some really good players as well.

But so it's a quirk of that, I guess.

Yeah, I know.

I just, you know, I just think that you will get in, you know, sometime.

Taiti played Spain.

I can't remember what tournament that was in.

Was it the Confederations Cup, maybe?

Do we still have the Confederations Cup?

But I mean, Spain, played Tahiti and gave them a threshing a few years ago.

Occasionally, you will just get a team that kind of comes at a level that they

can't play at.

But that just happens in sort of

FA Cup.

It happens in Champions League to some extent.

So

I don't mind.

I think it's better for the competition that we have somebody from Oceana there than not.

But I think there's just like this weirdness, isn't there, which Max has just alluded to, specifically with Oceania, because you've got in the same way as the Australian national teams now compete in the Asian qualifiers, all the Aussie teams are playing in the Asian Champions League and so those teams aren't part of it and the New Zealand teams specifically that play in the A-League end up frozen out of their system because they can't

represent Asia and they and they also can't enter the Oceanic Champions League.

I mean Auckland City, just to be clear, I mean they have won the Oceanic Champions League I believe the last four times in a row.

They're not like that, it's not like they got one off this season and they're there for a chance.

This is this is currently the best team coming out of that tournament.

Um, and

perhaps I think some people might look at this and go, well, does that mean you should have what has happened in the past with World Cup qualifying, where they should have like a cross-regional qualifier, like a play-off at the end of it to see if they get in or not.

But I'm kind of the same as

you.

I think, listen,

this is the system you currently have, and it feels right that every region should be represented.

I suppose one of the slight worries of that is, because this is an amateur team, like just so everyone's clear, that absolutely is true.

It's not being patronizing.

These are, in many cases, people with day jobs who are taking the time off to come and play buying clipping unique.

The question, I suppose, is now with this expanding and becoming more of a thing, like how does that then impact the financials?

I assume they're going to make more money from this tournament than they've made from any tournament in a a while.

And then does that mean they just go back and win the Oceanic over and over?

Well, they are going to keep half the money, and then the other half is going to be spread across the league.

So they are,

and that's the kind of agreement that the league set up, I think.

And so, because we were saying this is ridiculous, they can like build a palace while all these other people turn up.

Well, they can start saying, don't worry about your job as a fizzy drink salesman.

You know, we'll give you 100 grand a year.

But it will be split, but they will still have more of it.

You know, I did like the New Zealand Herald tweeting, look, Auckland's squad is made up of forklift drivers, a fizzy drink salesman, real estate agents and a warehouse manager.

And the first comment from crew, Jason, said, It's only fair that we see Harry Kane attempt to drive a forklift and see how badly he

fails at that.

A word on Auckland City.

I don't think they embarrass themselves, and it's a huge moment for those players getting

to get slaughtered by the likes of Iron Munich.

And who's a Ben Fica?

They still have to play and someone else.

But I did, I was wondering, has Ange Postakoglu taken over there?

Because their

heroic, borderline, foolish determination to play out from the back at all times

before losing the ball right on the edge of their own penalty area and then conceding a goal.

I don't know if it was foolhardy or commendable, but it's clearly just the way they play, mate.

I was reading an interview with one of the posters, I think it was The Athletic, and clearly I'm not watching Auckland City on a weekly basis, but apparently that is like they very much view themselves as a possession football team.

And most of the time, they are a team that has 60, 70% of the possession against opponents.

So this is how they expect to play.

It just doesn't quite work as well when you're playing one of the best teams in the world.

I saw the first game and

their game and PSG Atletico.

I didn't see the other two, I'm afraid.

Yeah, so I didn't watch Botofogo against Seattle, which kicked off 3am UK time.

make me

a fair weather fan for skipping that one.

But hat trick of headers, I've seen the goals, including one particularly long-range one that I think the Seattle goalkeeper probably should have done better with.

But I'd watched the first half of Palmire's against Porto that again was a lot better

like the opening game than the 0-0 score suggests.

And that was played at a fast pace.

It was a very aggressive game.

The best atmosphere inside the stadium by far.

You know, a lot of Palmire's fans were inside.

Estevo, the new Chelsea player that is joining after this tournament, looked very exciting in sort of the bits that I saw.

Definitely

a player there, you can tell that I think the Chelsea fans will enjoy.

And there was one mad goal-line scramble that kept Palmire's out.

But yeah, it was better than the 0-0 score suggested.

And I think the Brazilian teams and the sort of fans that they bring, and the

how much they care about Club World Cup in South America.

I think those games, when one of those teams are playing from South America, could really liven the atmosphere and therefore pick up the pace where the temperature allows.

So the Bayer Munich supporters, Munich Red Pride supporters group at the Club World Cup had a banner saying 10 years, Bauer o Lach, which is this hotel in Zurich that was raided with lots of FIFA execs in it 10 years ago.

World football is more poorly governed than before.

Smash FIFA.

But I suppose there hasn't been a whole lot of, you know,

I mean, it wouldn't be the fans who go really who would protest, would it?

It's a sort of, you know, you imagine it's people just sitting at home not watching it.

On the Gianni watch, TNT Sports writing that the new FIFA World Cup trophy,

we all know about the special key it's got, but I didn't realize that only, apparently, according to the TNT, only Gianni Infantino is allowed to use the magic key that opens the trophy.

I mean, just beggars for it's like, just imagine what happens if, you know, the FIFA vice president uses the key.

Is that it?

Exactly forever.

You think, Mark, that this will, we've talked about it before, that this will grow and this will become quite a significant tournament.

See, no reason why it won't become.

Barry was saying on Thursday's pod that he, you know, he sees it being part of the football calendar long after he's gone.

I think it will be before that that it actually becomes a proper tournament.

If If you were starting football again, there's no way you would go into it and not have a club World Cup.

The success of the International World Cup,

it would just be folly not to have a sort of club format that followed a similar path.

There are obvious issues in terms of when you put it in a football calendar.

But I do see

even from this first one, I think it will, by the time the group stage is over and you're down to the last 16, I think the quality will rise.

I think that the teams will then start to take it even more seriously.

And I look at the early stages of the Champions League and don't see that much difference to kind of the same complaints about what the FIFA Club World Cup is.

I'm not as worried about player welfare as maybe I should be.

I have to say, like,

I think because we work in football, like we're, as Nikki said, we're feeling slightly fatigued and we maybe sort of portray that and force our views out on you know if somebody's working in hr and they like football they've had a couple of weeks off they're probably you know dipping in and out of this tournament oh i'll watch psg against athletico on sunday i won't stay up at 3 a.m but then on wednesday i might watch another game and um

i i yeah i i just think as well that particularly in england we have this phobia of kind of new football competitions.

The International World Cup wasn't supported by England at the start.

The European European Cup wasn't supported by England at the start.

The Nations League, which I thought the semi-finals and final were fantastic, was that last week, the week before.

Again, nobody in England seems to care about the Nations League and the fact that England were relegated.

So it's just such a Premier League-centric view that I think actually is to the detriment of kind of

sort of

the football fandom in particularly England, I would say.

There are problems.

I'm not saying there are not, but I also think that it's not all bad this tournament.

I simultaneously agree to some extent, because also like even when like Milan were willing a club, the old version of this tournament, the much abbreviated version of this, when in I suppose the golden era under Berlasconi, they were making a big deal of it.

It was much more of a thing that got picked up in Italy than it was when English teams were competing in it.

But I do think the fatigue is real.

Like we saw the Champions League final where Inter were out on their feet.

I mean, that's a story of of its own.

That's a club that, I think, tried to do too much this season and got burned out.

But I do think that if you've got a situation this summer where you've even got, I mean, it's interesting it's happening in America right now.

At the same time, you've got a bit of a localised scandal's probably overstating it, but a news story about how Christian Pulisicker said no to playing in the Gold Cup this summer because he's exhausted.

He's playing too much football.

He doesn't want to play for the US over the summer.

He wants to give himself a clean summer so he can have a run-up to the World Cup next year.

I think that it's going to hit different teams differently.

And I think it's going to hit different teams depending on how much they think they have a chance of winning this thing.

I think PSG clearly have come here to win this thing.

I'll have a different mindset.

But I think that there is going to be for plenty of footballers in this tournament, a real feeling of this is asking a lot.

And maybe that applies more to the European clubs and the other clubs.

Every country has its own calendar.

But I think that we're going to get to the middle of next season and we're going to be talking about certain players who really haven't had a break going through from playing the end of this last season to playing in the Club World Cup to going on and playing another season with their

top clubs and then going on to try and play a World Cup after that.

I think that is going to be a talking point that actually kind of drags on from the back of this tournament almost rather than just what's happening at this tournament.

I don't know if this is too navel-gazing a question.

Mestwan says, What are your thoughts about other broadcasters pretending that this event is not happening in Trump's America?

And actually,

there are lots of outlets that do not just talk about any of the difficulties with FIFA, and actually, don't really talk about any of the issues within the game that we'd spend time talking about.

I don't know if that is an abdication of people's responsibility who cover football, or there are just different ways of talking about it.

I don't know what anyone thinks.

That just seems to be a common thing for broadcasters

who seem to decide: look, it's just easier to ignore the elephant in the room.

It was the same at the Champions League final.

It's the same when Newcastle won the Carabao Cup.

There was no mention really of the Saudi ownership.

There's no mention of

PSG's ownership.

And this is just an extension of that, I guess.

It's just easier not to rock the boat.

I think also, as well, you need the right people to speak about it.

So I just plug like Michael Richards, like, you know, we see him on CBS and you see him on Sky Sports, you know, most weeks, does some stuff for the BBC.

He's probably not the right person to,

you know, he probably feels really uncomfortable in that situation.

Whereas, you know, I thought Nick did a very good job on Thursday, you know, with the balance of kind of this is what's wrong with the tournament, but then, you know, second half, right, but let's let's preview the tournament.

So it feels like it, maybe you do need

expert journalists, specialist journalists.

And there are sports journalists out there that can cover the news and the sport, but there aren't that many of them.

And particularly in TV, they tend, we've seen as well with some cuts in some sort of pretty big organizations.

It tends to be social media influencers and celebrity sort of, you know, ex-footballers that get the jobs and seem to be getting more of those jobs.

And I would say it's difficult for both ends of that.

spectrum to be able to cover this story properly and then it depends on what fans actually want and what viewers want and what listeners want.

And if you're doing it live, if you're covering the game, you don't have a whole lot of time.

So when do you do it?

It was an interesting question, I thought.

Anyway, that'll do for part one, part two.

Some other football's happening, and then we'll talk about Thomas Frank to Spurs.

HiPod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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Remarkable, a brand name and an adjective, man.

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Perfect for working professionals whose jobs take them out of the office, like maybe a football journalist, Barry.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So Vorda says any word on the under 21 Euros?

Some interesting results so far.

Carsley continues his decent work.

Spain looked like they have another quality crop of players on the go.

I look to you, Mark.

I mean, you didn't do 3am Botofogo Seattle.

How much under 21s are you consuming?

What did I watch?

I watched Denmark versus Ukraine the other day.

This was a very entertaining 3-2 win for Denmark.

Germany looked of the bits that I've seen, and I haven't watched every minute of every game.

Germany looked the team to beat, I would say, so far.

And I mean it wouldn't be a major tournament without England having a kind of nil-nil in there somewhere in the middle of that group stage.

So

the question will be, I think, who will score England's goals if they're to win this tournament.

Like Delap

not there

because he's chosen to play for Chelsea in Club World Cup.

And I do think that obviously we've now got another competing tournament.

so it's always the youth football that gets hurt at this time.

And I actually feel like it's a really good development time.

I don't know if Nikki's got any strong views on Italy that I know of were being talked up actually before the tournament.

Italy's had some ongoing successes at youth level for a little bit,

which sadly is not yet reflecting in the senior national team, which is its own story that I'm sure we're going to get to in a minute.

I suppose this speaks to the fatigue we just talked about.

I have not given myself as much time since the end of the season yet to fully get my head around all of these tournaments.

But yes,

Italian youth football has had a couple of notable successes recently.

So

it's one of the brightest spots for the national game at the moment.

I think you are forgiven.

I think the listeners forgive you, Nikki.

Big Zoo scored the winner as a Carlos Tevez-inspired World 11 beat England in front of a cellar old Trafford in soccer raid.

They were 3-0 down, but Tevez turned things around.

Charity Ball matches are generally incredibly boring to watch, but they raised a lot of money for UNICEF.

And Barry and I spoke to someone from UNICEF on the radio yesterday who said, look, one in six children are brought up in conflict.

That's just statistic completely blew my mind.

And if you are a three-year-old in Ukraine, you have never known a world without war.

And UNICEF are doing some amazing work around the world.

So they're rightly calling for aid on a big scale to be allowed into Gaza, etc.

So donate to them if you have a spare few quid.

Let's talk about Thomas Frank.

He's joined joined spurs after seven years with brentford taking them from the championship uh to an established premier league team very admired setup at brentford um i guess back to you mark you're uh one of our many far too many spurs spokespeople that we have on this podcast how do you how do you feel um can you speak for the whole fan base yeah tottenham weekly i i can't speak for the whole fan base it's very It's a very strange fan base.

On social media, I know that it's not always real, but there are definitely real people on there and sort of you know some influential Tottenham supporters that are really angry over this decision.

And I've still not met one

in public that actually thinks it was the wrong decision.

I mean, I was at an event on Wednesday, there were a lot of spurs.

Sorry, Mark, is this the decision to sack Ange or the decision to appoint Thomas Frank?

Yeah, sorry, that was the decision to get rid of Devan.

I think Thomas Frank was

the first choice for a lot of Tottenham fans, particularly when it became clear that it was him or Marco Silva.

In terms of Thomas Frank, he definitely deserves this opportunity, the way that he's worked with Brentford.

I'm looking forward to having a coach that will set up differently depending on the game that they're about to take and the opponent they're about to take, and even in match, being able to be flexible with what they're trying to do.

I think think that Thomas Frank, much like Posta Coglu, is a very good public speaker.

I think he will be a good ambassador for the club.

And that wasn't always the case under Mourinho and Conte, where

press conferences were

difficult to watch at times.

And it felt really uncomfortable from when Pochatino was there and sort of never said the wrong thing.

And Thomas Frank, he just feels like a good person.

Not that

he'll still get the sack if he doesn't get results, but I feel like he comes from a solid base in terms of that.

My biggest concern is that Brentford and Brighton are two teams where you're not quite sure who is the most important person within that organisation.

And, you know, could somebody else have done what Thomas Frank has done, given the support that they get and

the data team behind it, and

the solidity of the ownership, and the fact that the board are all working in one in unison.

And that it sort of you almost feel like Brentford and Brighton are sort of plugging and play, and moving Thomas Frank out of that system into a very different environment at Tottenham, where I'm still not sure that anybody quite knows the direction of the club, and it does seem to jump around from season to season.

That's going to be difficult for him, but he deserves this opportunity, and I wish him well.

I'm just going to just imagine him just aging so fast and looking like Gandalf by Christmas.

That hair on gone grey.

Sorry, Mark, you were at an event.

What happened at the event?

People were like just throwing things in fury about Angels going.

It was a

for two people at work.

It was their 60th birthdays, and they worked for the company for I think it's 39 years or something crazy like that.

So we had an event there.

And so there were a lot of Tottenham fans in the building and just sort of walking around and

just you know just chatting about sort of the season and there was not one that felt it was the wrong decision and you know many season ticket holders or you know at least regulars there and then even yesterday I was at a family party and again the every Spurs fan I spoke to there was yeah this is definitely the right decision so I'm not sure where the kind of anger is coming from.

It's yeah, it's very strange, isn't it, social media?

It's a weird situation Frank's gone into because in his seven years at Brentford, he was never under any kind of pressure.

There was never any talk of him possibly losing his job.

And for a Premier League manager, it's probably the most low-pressure gig you could have.

Just keep them sort of ticking over.

And now he's going into a job where he will be under a lot more pressure.

But you wonder, is he under

what's he under pressure to do?

Because

they've kind of made it clear that winning trophies isn't particularly an issue because the manager who did win them a trophy has been sacked.

So what exactly is expected of him?

And one imagines he's had this conversation with the hierarchy.

But I can't see Spurs doing anything other than improve under him once he gets going.

We've heard he's had slow starts at Bromby and at Brentford.

But their

pressing will become more efficient.

As Mark points out, he's far more adaptable with his setup.

Their set pieces pieces will be better.

They will probably have less injuries

because their pressing will be more efficient.

And even if they have the same number of injuries, there will be a lot less complaining about injuries.

Because I remember Brentford, I think it was the season before last, had an awful lot of injuries, key players out all dropping like flies.

He never complained about it.

He just got on with it.

Part of the reason why he's never been under pressure is he's done such a good job at never being

in the relegation zone, right?

And And he would have been under pressure had

they have flirted with relegation a couple of times.

They've had a few bad runs, I guess, haven't they?

I mean, that is the interesting question, Nikki:

what is seen as a successful season for Spurs next year?

Because the Europa League was brilliant and it was great.

And, you know, we heard emotional Mark with the lost voice, you know, had the night of his life.

But actually, the Europa League, you know, because there were no Champions League sides there, was probably easier to win than the Carabao Cup, right?

So now they've got like winning a trophy now would be very difficult for Thomas Frank.

So is it sixth and everyone's happy?

Yeah, I think this is the unfortunate reality of modern football is that almost any time you hear about what the

board of a competitive football club actually want from their manager, it's qualify for the Champions League.

That's actually what they want.

That's what the leadership of the club wants.

And that's what you're employed to do as the manager of a club is to get into the Champions League, which oddly

did achieve.

He just did it in a way that I suppose perhaps they might have looked at and go, well, that's not sustainable because we're not in that competition next year, so we can't do that way again.

So we need to get better at the league part.

So I think clearly, from

a club direction point of view, very clearly the priority has to be let's do better in domestic football, let's do better in the league, because again, you're not in the Europa League next season, so that's not an option.

But I think that comes back to a question, I suppose, a conversation we have quite a lot these days, it feels like to me, which is, is what the club wants and is what the fan wants the same thing, as we just said, Mark, having that brilliant experience like Dr.

Stotten fans, because winning a trophy feels brilliant, right?

Like it feels amazing.

But that isn't how you

build the long-term business model, I guess.

And it's also not the best way to success.

You know, the best way to success is to be a good team that's consistent and finishing in the top four, five, six, which is what Pochettino did.

And the trophy just didn't come with it, even though you felt like they don't go down the Arteta route, but I feel like they did deserve one in that time.

And it didn't come to fruition.

But I think if you are consistently around the top four of the Premier League, that means you are likely to be fighting for FA Cups, League Cups.

And given

the way the Champions League goes, I mean, like we think Aston Villa were outside the top five and had a great run in the Champions League.

So, yeah, I just think you've just got to be consistently good at everything, Thomas Frank.

That's what you've got to do.

The thing is, there's like so much is just timing as well, though, right?

Like, because it's been funny watching an athlete win two league titles in three years, and I'm still not sure that either of those Napoli teams, as great as they've been in different ways, were better than the Marizio Sari Napoli team that got 91 points.

I thought that was the best Napoli team I've ever watched.

They didn't win the thing, though, right?

And that's football.

It's kind of a frustrating, infuriating sport sometimes like that.

It's not always the best version of a team.

It's the one that wins trophies.

It's a silly game.

We should all do something else, shouldn't we?

Simon says, at Liverpool, is it the best of times?

Is it the Wurtz of times?

Really nice.

Are Liverpool strengthening in the way they should have the last time they won the league?

They've agreed a £116 million deal to sign Florian Wurtz from Bayeleva Kusen, who's been brilliant for them and for Germany.

Key part in winning the title under Alonso, double figures for both goals and assists in the Bundesliga in the last two seasons.

One of the most expensive signings in Premier League history.

It's just behind the fee apparently Chelsea paid for Enzo Fernandez.

It is a lot of money.

I mean,

obviously, you see people going, this is obscene.

He's, you know, he's not as good as insert someone who costs 40 million or actually, this is money well spent.

And I guess, Perry, every signing is a gamble, isn't it?

But this one seems like quite a good gamble if you can afford it.

Every signing is a gamble, and an awful lot of them don't work out for whatever reason.

But Liverpool tend not to sign players that don't work out for them.

Darwin Nunes is a recent expensive acquisition that has more or less been dubbed a failure.

I wouldn't say he was a total failure,

but he doesn't seem to have a future at the club.

But this is their first sort of big statement signing since bringing in Virgil Van Dyke and Alison, I guess.

I don't see a lot of Verts, but he is spoken of incredibly highly.

I was surprised to learn he's the youngest of 10 siblings.

So he has four brothers, five sisters.

One of his sisters plays for the Verde Bremen women's team.

So I'm just thinking about having 10 children.

Just thinking.

Well, I reckon if if you're the youngest of ten you know you don't you probably didn't have it easy

that's what it is they probably just chucked him by ball and said sorry we've got no time

i would be surprised if it doesn't work out and the only thing i can see

stopping it from working out is some sort of terrible injury yeah the interesting thing mark is is

If you look at the list of players that have cost more than 100 million, there is a really low hit rate.

And I just, I wonder if there is something about costing that much money even though you don't choose to cost that much money that makes it more difficult to be

i mean i haven't checked i haven't compared to the 70 million signings or the 40 million signings and it's probably got a similar hit rate but it just there is just there is something about it which doesn't guarantee it there's a lot of pressure on on players that cost you know that type of money i think that that that's clear Usually they arrive after the best season of their career.

That's why they've cost the money that they have.

And it's difficult you can never tell whether a player will stay at that level go up or you know maybe it was just a a bit of a fluke season um i'm not saying that's the case with verts but you know you very rarely buy somebody that um you know hasn't had a very good season for that money and there are no guarantees um i also generally speaking they tend to be on you know i suppose the younger end you want to pay that money for somebody that you feel has got the potential and can be there for eight or nine years I mean, you know,

would you have paid 100 million for Dele Alley when he looked like he was at his peak?

You probably wouldn't have gone far wrong thinking, yeah, this player can only go one way.

And it just doesn't always work out.

The one interesting thing for me from Wertz is that I wonder who he's replacing because

I see him in a very different way.

Like Trent Alexander Arnold was a cheap creator for Liverpool.

And so you're losing that from right back.

I know Frim Pong's come in a different type of attacking right back, and Connor Bradley will be different when he plays.

But Liverpool need to replace the creativity of Alexander Arnold, and you just, you know, there's probably not another right back in the world that could do that.

So

they will need more assists, and they will need to supply Salah in a different way.

If you go back to the League Cup final

when Trenton Alexander Arnold didn't play, Salah was kept reasonably quiet.

And, you know, I think Wurtz's intelligence and the way way that he picks up the ball in good spaces and finds passes and finds goals.

I do feel like he has everything you would want to be paying that type of money for, I would say.

Speaking of Trenton Alexander Arnold, Phil says, how long does it take to become fluent in Spanish?

Yes, Trenton Alexander Arnold unveiled as a Real Madrid player and did his press conference in Spanish.

Obviously, what's been interesting, Nikki, is the sort of,

and I've seen a couple of clips of people clearly just trying to make some some content, being furious that he had the temerity to learn another language, because that meant that he was obviously leaving Liverpool and he knew he was going to do it.

Otherwise, he would never have bothered to try and improve some aspect of his life or be slightly open-minded about it.

Of course, we wouldn't let anyone bilingual on this podcast, of course, Nikki.

But

it was quite impressive, I thought.

I was sort of delighted to see it.

Yeah, good for him.

I think it's great.

And

yeah,

also, like, that's fine if he was doing it because he was planning to leave.

I mean, he's an adult human being who's allowed to like have different things he wants to do over the course of his career.

I understand that these things are tremendously tribal.

But I think it's one of the like lovely things about this current English football moment is that,

look, the Premier League is the richest league on the planet.

So people are, of course, spending top footballers are choosing, including English ones, spend essential parts of their career, biggest parts of their career there.

But I think it's still quite refreshing compared to what we've seen in previous generations that players can do that and they go, but also I only get to be a professional footballer for this ultimately quite small part of my life.

And I want to go and experience other things that I can do as part of that.

And I think it's great that Trent wanted to

learn the language and

do it in that way.

So I'm all for it, clearly.

But then I am one of those awful half-foreign sorts who I'm sure has all the own values.

I love the idea of Liverpool fans burning their Duolingos, you know.

That's it.

We were speculating on the radio.

Now, if Brian and Bumo does go to Spurs, does he have to do his press conference in Cockney and say, Go, Blimey?

How excited to be here?

I am.

Mark, we haven't really talked about who Manchester City have bought.

I don't know why we haven't managed this, but Reinders, Aitnori, Ray and Cherky.

This rebuild seems interesting.

Yeah,

I'll pass on to Reiners to Nikki.

From what I've seen of Reins, I really like him.

And I think he'll just, too many of the City players just wanted to come towards the ball.

And I think he's somebody that can keep possession, but also is dynamic and can score goals and be a big hit, actually, in midfield.

I think Turkey is one of them players that

are different to what City have got in terms of he is.

like got magic in his boots and I do want I hope that Pep Guardiola doesn't train him um to only pass the ball sideways and to to not try things and and to you know allow him to be the player that Man City have bought but they definitely City I think need I think Guardiola feels like they need more players that can can beat defenders one-on-one um because um that passing and constant passing is you know defences have worked that out and um are kind of able to do it but if you've got players that can beat the the fullback for instance just one-on-one like there isn't much you can do um there and he's now got doku savino and uh cherky that can all um do that ain't nori um i liked him at wolves um definitely did um

i was a little bit surprised at how high he's he's gone but maybe i just don't watch enough of him but i i felt like left back was a position that city

needed a player in because in terms of garvidal and ake like they should be playing centre back more often than not and And, you know, if you're city, you've got so much possession, I think you need more players that can attack from those fullback areas.

So, yeah, I mean, it's a dramatic rebuild for

you wouldn't have expected this 12 months ago for City's team to look so different.

But it was much needed.

And yeah, I think Reinsers, I'll let Nikki maybe just go on a bit more about Reinsers.

Yeah,

I'm only somewhat going to echo you because I really like him.

I think he's a really nice signing.

I think he's one of those players who actually,

for years we've maybe banged on too much at times about Milan and about Rafael Leiao and

Tier Hernandez to a lesser degree, but these slightly more eye-catching at times, but often very frustrating talents.

I think Reiners has just been one of those players who've been extremely consistently good for them.

And on a team that has been anything but consistent, that's kind of what makes him stand out.

He's got a bit of everything.

He reads the game very well.

He's someone who you don't necessarily see him flying into challenges everywhere, but he wins the ball a lot.

And he does it, I think, as much of the time by not even having to win a tackle because he just gets in the way of play and makes those interceptions.

But he also, as Mark says, brings a lot forward going forward as well.

Ten goals this season can contribute to the attack.

And 10 goals, I suspect, is a bit of an outlier.

I think more of what he does is the work in the builder.

But he just,

he is

a really well-rounded midfielder who I think is exactly the sort of...

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Barry's here too.

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Good player that you imagine, Pep, going right, and I can do so many different things with you and

get some use out of you.

So I think he'll be a good fit.

All right, that'll do for part two.

We'll do a bit more Italy in part three.

Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Lovely Orient.

There's one for Nikki, Gattuso.

Why?

So, yeah, Nikki, Italy of Sac Spoleti.

They brought in Gennaro Gattuso as his replacement.

Gattuso is a symbol of Italian football.

The president, Gabriel Gravina, said the blue jersey is like a second skin for him.

His motivations, his professionalism, and his experience will be fundamental to best face the upcoming commitments of the national team.

Yeah, why indeed?

I think there is a reason why.

And the reason why is they have made this decision to get rid of Luciano Spoletti, which I think you could reasonably have made that decision right after the Euros.

I think you could have made that decision at any point, really.

But the way they've done it, waiting to do it in a panicked and not very dignified way after the loss, the 3-0 thumping by Norway,

has

really just been the worst of all worlds because doing it this way, they've made the decision right after a lot of the potentially interesting and interested managers have come off the market.

I think if you're talking about Italian managers who you might have associated with,

I don't know, possible targets for the national team to try to take the project forward.

Maybe someone like Gasperini, who's been around for a while, could have been interested if he hadn't just taken the Roma job.

And likewise, the man who they clearly wanted to get, who was their top target, and who I think, frankly, Grevina naively expected to get, was Ranieri, because he's just finished being the Roma manager and has moved upstairs.

And I think they, in their discussions about getting rid of Spalletti,

no one has said this out loud, but I'm fairly convinced they thought to themselves, what he's just had is great rescue acts with Cagliari and Roma.

Now he can finally end his managerial career coming to the national team and saving us from this, another World Cup failure.

What a great part of the Ranieri story.

And what a great choice as well, because he's good at it.

He's good at

fixing situations and stramatizare, taking the drama out of situations, as people would say in Italy.

But Ranieri doesn't want it.

He's just gone upstairs at Roma.

As he said, if I wanted to see managing, it would have been at Roma.

So they've made this choice at a point when you haven't got a wealth of top managers who aren't in jobs because

the post-season flurries has somewhat already happened.

And I think that the reason beyond that is that Gatuzo is seen as this link to,

I suppose, the last time Italy were at a World Cup and good at it, which is 2006.

And there's definitely a reaching right now for that feeling of 2006 for players who

I think there's a generation there that feels somewhat that it has been not respected enough, that it has not been given these opportunities to bring their knowledge and understanding of what it takes to win in the national setting back.

So I think you're going to see Gattuso as the manager, but there's already been talk of Bonucci joining his staff.

I think you're going to see other players from that generation very involved in this moment.

So it's definitely a part about deliberately reaching for that.

And I mean, look, it's

Gatuso has had an underwhelming career, I would say, as a manager, but it's also not like he's done nothing.

He's worked constantly, which is one thing.

And he has gone places like Milan and Napoli, which are big clubs.

And without doing as well as he would have liked,

finished them higher than they were when he took over.

Not by much.

I think it's maybe one position in both cases, but still he didn't completely disgrace himself.

I think you can look at his most recent position at Heidegger Split and say it's a mixed bag, right?

They didn't

win the League or League and get back into the Europa League, which I think would have been the targets.

But equally, they were closer to first place than they were last season, certainly in terms of points, not in terms of finishing positions.

So I think there's a lot of grey in terms of how we assess Catuzo as a manager.

But I do think at a time when the Italian national team clearly needs something because in my opinion while this group of players is is clearly not the talent of 2006 it's also a lot better than the group of talent that Antonio Conte had when he was in charge in my opinion and they should it's a group that should have no problem qualifying for a World Cup it is easily talented enough and indeed even under Spoleti had some games where it showed it

beating France

we talked earlier about the Nations League and how it's viewed differently in different countries Italy have done well in the Nations League all told they had a bad beating by Germany in the quarterfinals this year but they've still been getting through their groups consistently.

Could easily have won that group ahead of France.

It's been a mixed picture for a while, but I think it's going to be absolutely disgraceful if this group of players fails to reach the World Cup again.

And this is now a tremendous amount of pressure on a manager who isn't going to fill everyone with confidence.

I think that's the way I'd put it.

Just being honest, doesn't fill me with confidence.

And I'd love him to prove me wrong and to be successful, but it's not the appointment that I think that just makes you feel certain that's what's going to happen.

You mentioned the sort of managerial reshuffle.

Can you just talk us through what's happened?

Inzaghi's gone off to take the Gasquillions from Saudi Arabia.

What else has happened?

Yeah, oh gosh, it's a long list when you go through all of it.

I mean, the big ones, as I just mentioned, Gasparini to

Roma is one of the big ones, leaving Atalanta after all his time there.

Christine Kivo taking over Inter, right, who obviously have to go straight into the Club World Cup without Inzaghi, which maybe is a good thing given how things ended at the end.

Juventus appeared to be sticking with Igotuda, although whether or not that will hold,

we will see.

I mean, he's extended his contract now, but it just feels like such a reluctant way that it's been done that it makes you think, is this relationship going to going to stand the test of time?

Because if they really felt confident about making that choice,

would they have not dived straight into it a bit more confidently?

I'm trying to run through all the clubs in my head because I didn't prepare this segment.

Lazio

have returned to a familiar face with Sari and Allegri is back at Milan as well, Nikki.

Yes, there's been a lot going on in Italy.

Yes, yeah.

Do you know what?

I do love the idea of Gasperini with Ranieri upstairs.

You know, they're just one old Italian away from the last of the summer wine, aren't they?

The Italian version of, you know, they could just roll down a hill in a bath.

It's great.

Before we go into emails, Nikki, De Bruyne at Tennapoli in a double attacking pivot with Scott McTominay.

It's a great signing for them, I think.

And he showed, didn't he, at the end of the Premier League season that he's still got the chops for this?

Yeah, I really love it.

I think it's just one of those transfers you're intrigued to see how it'll play out.

I think when you look at his numbers over the last couple of years, yes, it's not peak De Bruyne, but it's pretty clear he's not a player who's suddenly stopped being able to play.

I haven't got them in front of me, but he's well into double digits across 34 games for the the last feasons for assists.

He's got close double digits for goals.

That's someone who's got something to contribute.

I think that

the slightly slower pace of Seria will definitely suit him as well.

And clearly, Antonio Conte has a pretty good knack of getting the most out of players.

I do also think it's just one of those signings that makes a little bit of a statement about who Napoli are trying to make themselves now.

They've been a club that was this

punchy underdog for a a while, but now with two titles in three years, I think this is one of those signings that's designed to be like, and we can sign one of the biggest names going, right?

Someone who's been Premier League player of the season twice, who's won six Premier League titles, who's won the Champions League.

It feels like it's all, from their perspective, fits into this narrative that De La Rentis has been gradually writing over time, the owner of first it was

someone like Gonzalo Higuain.

Look, we can go out and get a Higuain.

And we got Rafa Benitez before that as a manager who could help bring him in.

And we got Anchilotti.

This gradual building up and up towards

saying, actually, stop treating us like an underdog.

We're going to be here and we're going to be winning things.

And yeah, I think it's, I don't know, I think Napoli are laying out their stock early that they could be serious

about defending their title next year.

And I think that's exciting.

On the subject of big names, on Bermudan International, Reggie Lamb, Stu, amongst others, with some deep criticism for me, and I feel ashamed, he says, oh, Max, I know you're on the other side of the world, but I was as shocked and stunned as Paul Watson will be by your failure to recognize that Reggie Lamb played 55 games, five goals for the user between 2018 and 2020.

Poor from you.

I knew I recognized the name.

So yeah, my apologies.

Shows what a plastic fan I am.

A couple of requests for Barry.

Matt says, Dear Max Barry and all at Football Weekly, I'm writing on behalf of my brother Mark and me to ask if you'd wish our dad, Mike,

who is celebrating his 70th birthday today.

As long-standing listeners of the pod, lifelong Spurs fans, more sorry, more Spurs chat.

We wanted to thank you for soundtracking both our pain and joy over the years.

We all look forward to each new episode of the pod and discussing it together afterwards.

Dad was chuffed to meet Max and Barry at the Bristol live show and still agrees with Barry that Harry Kane shouldn't have started in the Champions League final.

Keep up the good work.

Hopefully, not all summer.

You guys deserve a break too.

All the best.

Matt and Mark.

Yes, all our families' names start with M.

So yes,

yes.

Mike, many happy returns.

70 today.

This from another Mike.

Hi, Max and gang.

Love the pod.

Was wondering if my fiancée Charlie and I could have one of Barry's infamous blessings ahead of our wedding on Saturday.

As a long-suffering Spurs fan, God, I do apologize.

That's what we've just become.

It felt somewhat serendipitous that I got to share with her the most significant football moment of my life so far winning the Europa League on the 21st of May, exactly a month before celebrating the most significant day of our lives so far on the 21st of June.

I'm slowly persuading her to support the team I love and share in the inevitable years of hurt.

Was hoping that some sage advice from Barry would help us out ahead of our big day.

Keep up the good work, Mike, in Bristol.

Well, actually, I'm going to steal some advice I heard from Richard Osman recently

on a podcast, on his podcast with Marina Hyde, and it was for a couple who were getting married.

And he had heard some

elderly couple discuss the success of their marriage.

And the husband had said,

before we got married, we agreed that my wife would take care of all our small problems and I would take care of all the big ones in our married life and turned out because she was taking care of all the small problems we never had any big ones so

I think Mike and Charlie should possibly adopt that policy for a long and happy marriage.

Wow, this is

becoming sage advice, Barry.

And what everyone else wants is just, ah, you'll be divorced within three years.

Yeah, well, probably.

Yeah, this is the all-new Barry.

This is from Tom.

This is great.

Me and my brother love Football Weekly.

We were intrigued by recent requests and speculation from the host as to what a Football Weekly review podcast might sound like.

So we gave it a go and created the Football Weekly Weekly podcast.

It's made with more love than talent and largely as a lull.

Hopefully a great reminder of being careful what you wish for, but largely a way of saying cheers for

cheers for all the great pods.

Thanks, Tom.

And your brother, who is named at the start of the pod, I listened to it.

It's 15 minutes long.

At the end, they acknowledge that this has been deeply unnecessary, but it is quite fun.

It is quite funny, especially like the co-host.

I don't know if that is Tom or his brother talking about the character development of Barry over the season.

I haven't heard this, just to be clear.

I wonder.

No, no,

I'll send it to you.

I'll stick it out on my Twitter.

I'm trying to get us to put it on our feed in the hope that then somebody does football weekly, weekly, weekly, and

we can see how far down the rabbit hole we can go.

Anyway, thank you very much.

That is greatly appreciated.

Um, because you sat there for 15 minutes talking about the podcast.

They did veer into a bit of football analysis at time, but they brought it back.

They were like, We're not here to talk about the football, we're here to talk about how the football weekly panelists have talked about the football.

Um, anyway, uh, thank you.

Great effort.

And John finally says, if you all just take a couple of well-deserved weeks off, I don't think any of us will mind.

Uh, we are going to take the rest of this week off.

We'll come back next Monday, then we'll take the rest of that week off.

We'll have another week off

in a few weeks as well.

So, you know, we're aware that we're in the red zone.

We're aware of podcasting fatigue.

I think we will chuck some other things on our feed, some long reads, maybe Football Weekly, Weekly.

See if you're lucky.

And but yeah, we're still sort of kicking about because it never stops.

Anyway, that'll do for today.

Thanks, everybody.

Thank you, Mark.

Thank you, Matt.

Thanks, Nikki.

Thanks.

Cheers, Baz.

Thank you.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Danielle Stevens.

This is The Guardian.