Clásico chaos, the Blades head to Wembley and your questions – Football Weekly

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Let's do some Spain to begin with.

A classic Classico at the weekend.

Barca winning by the odd goal in seven, meaning La Liga is almost theirs.

Was it worth pulling all those levers?

Are they fine or will they explode shortly after lifting the trophy?

All change at the Bernabal.

We'll ask what Jabbi Alonzo has to do to stop the conspiratorial whining.

Sheffield United booked their place at Wembley in the playoffs Sunderland or Coventry await.

Then some mailbag: Is the top six the top six anymore?

What's the worst decision you've ever seen?

Fulham's £20,000 season ticket.

Is the Premier League good?

Does anyone care about the Club World Cup?

And so on and so on.

Thank you for the questions.

This is the Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glen Denning, welcome.

Hello, hello, John Bruin.

Hello,

and welcome, Noradine Chowdhury.

Hello.

And joining us from Spain for part one and part one only, as is their wont.

Phil, Kitchener Leaders.

Hey, Phil, you okay?

Hello, yes.

Joe says, Did you avoid having Sid on because you wanted enough time to do the mailbag?

It's a very good question.

And yes,

yes, is the answer.

Hey, let's talk about the classico, Phil.

Barsa beat Realman did 4-0, rail with 2-0 up after a quarter of an hour.

And had they won, there would have been just a point in it.

So I guess for the Neutrals,

probably a bit of a shame that Barca came back.

But also for the Neutrals, great that they came back because it was a brilliant game of football.

Absolutely.

I mean, this game was just so fun, as the Clásicos have been this season.

I had a mate of mine who was watching the Classico for the first time this season and he messaged me.

He goes, oh, this is pretty decent.

And I said, yeah, you know, they have been this season.

He's like, what?

Yeah, it was been 4-0 to Barcelona, 5-2, 3-2.

Their aggregate winning margin now for Barcelona is 16-7 against Real Madrid this season, and they've just been

much better than Real Madrid.

And actually, you said that for the neutral, it would have been good for Real Madrid to win because the title race would have continued.

It was basically weird that they were at this point of the season with still a chance to win the league title, given that Barcelona have been so much better than them.

Me and Sid were trying to get our heads around how is it possible that this really poor Real Madrid team still has a chance to win the league title.

And it feels weird calling them a poor team, but they are a poor team.

They've got some brilliant individuals.

But in terms of an actual team, an actual collective, actual idea, actual balance in the squad, they're miles off it.

Yeah, but did you think at the start of the season that Barca would win it?

No, God, no, no one did.

No one did.

We thought Real Badrida just won the Champions League.

They've won the league and they've bought the best player in the world in Kiliel Bate.

So we were genuinely thinking this could be the start of a era of domestic dominance dominance for Real Madrid, not least because of the position that Barcelona were in as well, you know, the well-documented financial issues that they had and still have.

A new manager coming in as well.

Hansi Flick was, you know, he's not an unknown quantity.

We know who Hansi Flick is, but he was an unknown quantity in La Liga.

Didn't know what he was going to do with this squad of players.

And it turns out that he's basically taken exactly the same squad plus Daniolmo and turned them into this extraordinary machine of playing entertaining football.

Still need to defend a bit.

And that was quite funny, actually, in the post-match press conference after winning this Classico, after basically wrapping up the league title.

You wouldn't expect to hear a manager go, yeah, you know,

we still need to improve.

You know, there's still things we need to do better, but they do need to defend a little bit better.

But for the neutral, it's absolutely fantastic to watch them attack brilliantly, occasionally defend shambolically, and provide constant entertainment.

I'm also surprised because they haven't been at the new camp.

Like, is this home from home

the same?

Like, does it have the same...

It's obviously not the same stadium but it's up a big hill isn't it but like it's basically rubbish but the fans make it for it's rubbish is it's basically rubbish yeah i mean it's nice to go there

as a one-off because it's a sort of beautiful stadium it was the olympic stadium from barcelona 1992 so it's very iconic and you go there and like oh wow yeah this looks nice but then as an actual week in week out football stadium to try and create a cauldron like atmosphere etc terrible um and

i think you can you can see that it is up a hill uh they're calling it the the magic mountain so the the magic happens now, up the mountain, up Mondjuic.

But yeah, loads of Barcelona season ticket holders who had the option at the start of this two-year stint at Monduk to take up their season tickets there.

I think there's like 50 or 60,000 season ticket holders at the camp now.

Only 17,000 said, yeah, okay, we'll go to Montjuic, yeah, that's fine.

So people just didn't fancy it.

They're like, it's too far away.

I can't drive.

I have to take escalators up the hill.

Don't fancy it.

It has improved recently with the team getting better.

Funny that, in terms of attendances.

But yeah, yeah, it's not the same.

I mean, Camp Now is the biggest stadium in Europe.

It's massive and intimidating.

And even if it's three quarters full, it's 75,000.

So, yeah, absolutely not the same.

And we've spoken about Rafinia a lot.

But who else has really shone for you for Barca?

So the thing is with this Barca team, basically every player has had more or less the best season of their career, pretty much.

Starting with Wojciech Chesni, goal.

Amazing story.

Amazing story.

I was basically laughing with this idea.

I was like, what are they doing?

Why are you signing this guy?

This is ridiculous.

Obviously, Terstegen gets injured, out for the season.

They need an emergency signing.

Vorce Chesny is living in Marbella, having his cigarettes on the beach, chilling, relaxing, retired, and he gets the call and comes.

And he's been, I mean, he started off pretty wobbly, but he's grown into it and he's been pretty solid.

But genuinely everyone, I mean, I can't think of any Barcelona player who has underperformed this season.

I mean, Pedri is pretty much the best player in Spain.

Like, nobody plays football like Pedri.

It's extraordinary what he's done.

He's not just this twinkle-footed, skillful midfielder now dinking around.

He's running, he's tracking back, he's tackling, he's recovering possession.

It's just an evolution into a total midfielder.

Inigo Martinez, centre-back

has become first choice.

Didn't see that happening.

I mean, we talk a lot about Laminia Mao, but Paul Kubasi is also a teenage centre-back who's become, I mean, you know, Frank Beckenbauer

is amazing.

Genuinely everyone.

Frankie de Jong's been extraordinary, and he had one foot out the door a couple of seasons ago.

Rafinha, literally, they wanted to sell him.

They were happy to get rid of Rafinha, happy to get rid of Lewandowski, and they've both put up extraordinary numbers this season.

So, yeah, even Eric Garcia, Eric Garcia is there, remember him?

Eric Garcia, he's been brilliant as well this season.

So, yeah, just

all through the team, everybody has performed to their highest level.

And that, I think, speaks to the manager as well.

When a manager is getting the top, the most out of each player, then he's doing a great job.

Pete says, what's the long-term financial future looking like at Barcelona?

And will this be another summer of pulling various levers and getting creative with the accounts rather than cutting their cloth accordingly?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, that's basically the Mobus Open Book

is to pretty much do that.

But the thing is, and I had someone sort of message me,

a Barcelona fan, saying, I'm actually not that happy.

I mean, I'm happy, but I'm actually a bit worried because the way that this has come about with what Jean Laporta has done and the string pulling and the

corner cutting and basically using every trick in the book to get this through.

That's not how Barcelona should be running the club, but it's vindicated by the success that they've had.

So yeah, financially

they're not in good shape, but getting back to camp now will be important for them.

Remember, they sold off a good chunk of their TV rights for the next 25 years.

So they're going to be getting less money from TV rights for the next 25 years now

compared to Real Madrid, for example.

And they don't have the money to go out

and splash in the transfer market.

But at the moment, and particularly with this young squad, like the squad is young, and there are players coming through the youth academy as well, ready to just step in and look like incredible first-team players.

So, yeah, I was pretty negative about Barcelona's future about a year, 18 months ago, but I've maybe changed my tune a little bit.

What about Real Madrid?

What are the vibes about Jabbi Alonso?

turning up?

Yeah, I mean, it's pretty negative generally around Real Madrid at the moment.

It is a disastrous season when you finish second in the league, runners-up in the Copa del Rey and quarterfinals of the Champions League.

That's a bad season for Real Madrid.

The general feeling is that it was time for a change,

like new blood, new ideas to come in, and Xavi Alonso is that guy.

So I think people are excited.

He has the cachet needed to be Real Madrid manager, obviously an unbelievable player, someone who knows the club, was a youth coach at the club as well, was in charge of their under-14, so has been inside the setup a little bit, then gone off and done what he's done by Alevicus.

And so I think he comes with the cachet needed to be Real Madrid manager, both inside the dressing room and outside as well, to like convince the fans, but also to convince the players.

And we'll see what he does because

I mean,

the phrase cleaning out of the dressing room is being used in the media here.

You know, there's going to be...

players, quite a few players leaving, I think, and we're expecting quite a few players to come in

as well.

So yeah, it should be quite a busy, busy summer for Real Madrid and Chabi Alonso.

Yeah, I mean,

he can't get more Galacticos up top, can he?

I mean, surely he's got to come in and.

Maybe they should, yeah, should they get another player that wants to play on the left?

Because I don't think they've got enough.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Who could they get?

I mean,

like, how much rebuilding is there?

I think we're talking about at least three or four signings in and four or five players leaving.

They need defenders.

I mean, but the squad's just been like this season in its inception, it was completely unbalanced.

So you bought Killian Mbappe, fine, cool, okay, I understand that.

But he is a player that wants to play on the left, is better playing on the left, and that's where he's always kind of played in his career, more or less.

Vinicius Jr.

plays there and Rodrigo wants to play there as well.

So you've got three players who all really want to play there and only one of them can.

Then in midfield, they didn't replace Tony Cross.

How do you try and replace Tony Cross?

Well, relying on nearly four-year-old Luka Modric and Danny Sebaios, that's not the way to do it, but that was their plan.

That didn't work.

And in defense, Danny Carver-Howe got injured, didn't get a replacement right back.

Poor old Lucas Vasquez, who is, you know, he does his best, bless him, but he's not an elite footballer, although an elite right back.

Nacho Left, who was a defender who could play anywhere across the back four, didn't replace him.

So yeah,

I think they need to address the imbalance in the squad, and they will look to bring in defenders.

I thought Martin Tubimendi would be a terrific signing for Real Madrid, and I thought with the the link to Real Sociedad Chavi Alonso previously having worked with him as well,

he was nailed on to go to Real Madrid, but it looks like that's not happening.

So they're going to have to look for someone else in midfield.

And yeah, loads of names being mentioned in terms of centre-backs, Dean Hoysen,

Hausen, sorry.

Apparently it's Hausen.

Everybody in Spain's been told

to pronounce it Hausen.

Yeah, he's

apparently someone that they like and Chavi Alonso likes as well.

So yeah,

there is quite a bit of work to do in the transfer market do you think Alonzo arriving will will change as I said in the intro like the conspiratorial windings was that much bigger than

embedded yeah that's no nothing's going to change that that's been and has that been sorry has that been there forever and ever or I mean it feels like it feels to maybe just recently buy it but it feels like it's gotten more ridiculous recently okay so this is the thing so obviously I used to work at Real Madrid TV I was there for nine years it was you you were pumping this out the referees

I wasn't on I wasn't on the Spanish channel channel who were doing all this.

I was on the English channel where we were sort of just concentrating on the football.

But this has been going on for ages.

Like, genuinely, it's just that the media in Spain have suddenly picked up on it.

So the impact of the videos that they do every single week, they do a video of the referee before every single game showing how historically they have been prejudiced against Real Madrid.

Those videos, if the media didn't pick up on it and say, oh, look, another video from Real Madrid, then nobody would really like say.

Classic Culture Awards.

Yeah.

But no,

that's not going to change.

And no, Carline Chelotti is quite an elegant guy.

You know, he hasn't really gotten involved with all this stuff, but that still continues anyway.

That's just that's just a policy from the club that will continue.

Just a generic Diego Simeone question: Will he be at Athletic for Life?

Every year, I feel there's a moment where you go, oh, maybe it's not his time anymore.

And then he's there.

He's still there.

He will be there next season.

He will be there.

I don't know.

Well, will he be there until they win the Champions League?

Does he he feel like he has to do that before he leaves?

I don't know.

He still has the energy to continue.

They've got into the Champions League for the 13th consecutive season, so the club are delighted.

They don't have to win the trophies from the club's perspective.

Just get us into the Champions League, get us into that lovely money pot, and you're good.

They do have the Club World Cup this summer, which is actually big for them.

because they're probably not going to play it again.

If you think about it, if there's only two teams from Spain getting into it, that's going to be Real Madrid and Barcelona, right?

They've taken advantage of a

blip from Barcelona the few years where they messed up in the group stages, but basically it's going to be Real Madrid and Barcelona.

So yeah, they'll look at the Club World Cup

sort of shooting ahead to a question that might be covered on later in the podcast.

They're taking it seriously because they might not be there again.

Quickly, one on Sevilla.

They had to spend the night in their stadium.

What's that about?

They had to spend the night in their training ground.

Yeah, this is what happened.

Sevilla are terrible.

They're very lucky that there are three worst teams because otherwise they would probably be getting relegated.

They lost away to Celtovigo at the weekend, playing against 10-man Celtavigo for most of the game.

Still lost.

Two points from a possible 27, I think it is.

They arrived back in Seville around 9pm and about 500 fans were at the airport to greet them and give them a piece of their minds.

They went out the back, so they didn't get to give them a piece of their minds and went to the training ground where they were supposed to have a little dinner together before going off home.

The fans all went to the training ground, started chanting, screaming, horrible things against the president.

And then some of them broke down the barrier to get into the training ground and stormed the training ground.

I don't know what they were hoping to do, like what they were...

what the end game was, but we could see them sort of parading around, chanting.

In the end, they were dispersed, but the club thought it's too dangerous to let the players go back home to sleep, so you've got to stay here and sleep in the training ground.

So, yeah, absolute, absolute catastrophe of a season for Sevilla, which probably won't end in relegation.

But they are really awful.

So, you know, three games left.

If they lose all three, I think they'll go down.

All right, Phil, that's all I've got.

Unless you've got anything you desperately want to tell us.

No, what does Sid usually do at this juncture?

He just leaves.

Okay.

Yeah.

Thanks, Phil.

And that'll do for part one.

In part two, we'll do a bit of the playoffs and get into the mailbag.

Hi Pod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So let the playoffs rumble on.

John, you're on the minute-by-minute for Sheffield United v.

Bristol City.

So

for 10 minutes, Bristol City looked okay, didn't you?

You thought, maybe

you might have an interesting evening.

And then, really, we all knew it was done, didn't we?

Yeah,

I think there was a couple of shots reined in.

Yeah.

The goalkeeper,

is it Michael Cooper?

Looked pretty solid, actually, I have to say.

Listen, Sheffield United,

the thing is,

the playoffs are always those things are where you think, oh, the team that sneaks in has got a chance against a team that finishes third.

Not in this case.

Blades were

streets ahead, really.

Obviously, what what happened in the first leg with the sending off meant that City were chasing an impossible dream, a dream that only Sheffield Wednesday really managed to do

in playoff memory, and

it wasn't happening.

As soon as

Blades found the range with Kiefer Moore, well, you knew what was going to happen.

Great header.

Kiefer Moore, can he be next season's Chris Wood?

It's a good question.

I'm hoping so.

Because the thing is, Chris Wood was always regarded, wasn't he, as a championship striker for many years and that he would never make the grade.

And I think that's always been Kiefer Moore's problem, hasn't it?

I mean, I'm a huge admirer of Kiefer Moore.

He's great to watch.

Listen, we share feelings on players like that.

Oh, we do, yeah.

With the game changing,

can someone like that make Mitch a bit more of an impact?

Because those players do seem to have...

Listen, is it more that defenders cannot defend?

Like, central defenders cannot deal with the ball?

They have their own.

I mean, Chris Wilder was talking about afterwards, you know, dead ball specialists.

He was talking about Arsenal.

He says, well, you know, you watch the Champions League and Arsenal got them.

Well, we've got them too.

But unfortunately, Blade, unfortunately, for Blades have a terrible record in the playoff final.

But Chris Wilder, a divisive figure for many, I suppose, because of that brusque Yorkshire manner.

He can fairly...

Well, there's been a few bust-ups over the time, haven't they?

But his press conferences, I must say, haven't been to a few of them, can be fairly fearsome when he's not happy.

But if you were a Sheffield United manager, you would love this guy because, let's face it, Blades are a club that essentially are built to yo-yo between the top two divisions.

And you think of three managers, you think of Dave Bassett, you think of Neil Warnock, and you think of Chris Wilder.

And he's done just as good a job as those two.

So, yeah, all credit to Blades.

Terribly sorry for Bristol City.

Listen, after what's happened to Liam Manning and his family, all sympathies go out to him.

I think he's made a lot of friends this season.

Hopefully, they can go again.

But Blades at Wembley.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I totally agree with what you say about Liam Manning.

He comes across incredibly well.

And I've mentioned it before, but Ben Fisher did a brilliant interview with him.

And

it's really worth seeking that out.

But yeah, so Sunday played Coventry at the Stadium Light tonight.

You're 2-1-up.

Good luck to Barry Glendennings and Jonathan Wilson's everywhere.

How are you, Baz?

You still on the fence?

Or are you desperate for victory now?

Now you can taste it.

You can taste the Twin Towers, as it were.

I'm not really the person to ask because I'm not a match-going Sunderland fan.

But I asked a pal of mine, another Jonathan, Macam Jonathan, I know, the other day.

He was at the Coventry game.

I said, do you actually want Sunderland to get promoted?

And he was even a bit reticent, but he certainly wants them to win the playoffs.

and

so it's all very odd

but we you know everyone's seen what's happened the last six teams to get promoted and nobody wants that to happen to their team uh particularly you know sheffield united the season before or last season southampton leicester this season I mean, Ipswich didn't disgrace themselves, but...

I don't think I'd mind.

I don't know what you think.

I mean, I suppose we've got too many United fans here, so it's hard for them to sort of empathise.

I mean, not too hard, but you know.

You say that.

But, you know, the experience of losing every week is weird if you're a Manchester United fan.

If you are a yo-yo team, I think you go, okay, look, this is what this year is.

We go to some better grounds and we're getting bumped a bit, and you never know, and then we'll go down again.

Ipswich have been a bit cam-worn the last few weeks, haven't they?

That's been quite a sad thing because I was lucky enough to attend quite a few of their early games and

none of which they won.

But there was always this hope.

And I think they beat, I think their first win, home win was against Chelsea, wasn't it?

New Year's Eve.

And then they didn't win another game until March.

And you just, that is a depressing road to be on.

And, you know,

if you're a manager like Kieran McKenna, you know, who is the modern manager, the slick manager, you know, the one that's able to sort of talk through in terms of tactics, he'd run out of things to say.

It's hard.

it must be so hard.

But I suppose if you're supposed if you're Ipswich, they were in League One, like Cambridge didn't win and got a point in the first nine, and that's in League One.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, like, like losing in the Premier League is totally fine.

And Andrew says that into the mailbag: will we ever remove Spurs and United from the top six?

What are the conditions that need to be met to be a top six side?

Nas?

Well, sorry, can I just say before Nas answers that question, I think it's big six, not top six.

They're not a top six side.

Yeah,

they're sixteenth and seventeenth place side.

So big six.

It's nailed the terminology, yes.

Okay, big six.

Okay, but we'll go with big six.

It still feels like what do you what do you think, Norse?

It's just uh depends how you define it, like most football questions, I guess.

It's box office.

It's it's it's it's whichever teams get the most attention.

And and Spurs and Manchester United get get a lot, probably get more attention this season than most others simply because they're so bad.

And there's a celebration in that.

Like, why would you want to be without that?

It's a little bit like, do you know, um, in your revision where you've got those automatic qualifiers that don't need to sort of like go through semi-finals or thing, like, everyone wants the United Kingdom to be in it because they're going to be really bad and it's going to be really funny.

So it's a little bit like that, where you are always going to have Spurs and Manchester United like beat or any of the any of the traditional big six.

You, you, if they're doing badly, that almost makes it more imperative that they're included because because they're a they're a bigger story and and can you imagine a situation where where in any way they weren't perceived as the big six or or weren't given the attention then what i mean you'd miss out on all that joy you think i mean the the amount of joy that manchester united manchester united in particular but also spurs have given given the football community as a whole this season you can't buy that it's one of those things actually and you often get it from those who maybe have a vested interest in the disappearance of Tottenham and Manchester United.

Maybe Arsenal fans, might be Liverpool fans, might be Manchester City fans.

But do you know what?

If they did disappear, you'd miss them.

Yeah, because

that's the whole point.

It's football, it's rivalry.

It's Manchester United and Spurs for they do have this sort of faded grandeur, this faded.

It's so faded, man.

It's so faded.

Rusted.

It's over.

It's so, it's right.

But it's, but but it's still there.

I mean, you know, look, look through other sports.

Like, you know, you have teams in baseball that haven't won the World Series

since before the First World War that have glamour.

You have Dallas Cowboys are the biggest team in American football.

They've been rubbish for many years.

The New York Jets, that type of thing.

Football.

Manchester United getting relegated in the 70s is one of the big stories of the 70s.

Spurs did the same.

It's a huge story.

Those are big clubs and big clubs don't necessarily have to be good.

That's what they're proving at the moment.

That's absolutely true.

God, it's so interesting, isn't it?

That you think, I mean, it is such a shame that one of those bottom three wasn't better.

Yeah.

Because then, you know, Man United and Spurs, right?

I mean, obviously, like, with my Spurs hat on, I'd be terrifying, but like, and I can't stop thinking about this Europa League final.

I don't know what you think, Nas.

Like, like, the implications of the difference between winning and losing one football match.

I can't think of that many moments.

Obviously, like, a World Cup final, those implications.

It's like a playoff final, though, isn't it?

It's like.

It is.

Yeah, you're absolutely right.

They should get like Gary Weaver and Andy Hitchcliffe to do the commentary on it.

You know, because it's like, this game means more than any ever.

And it's like, you know, those playoffs where the first touch of the ball is like, oh, the tension.

You know, because it's just those guys.

That's what it is.

In fact, actually, why not?

If you lose, you'd get relegated from the Premier League as well.

Just.

Do you know know what?

Why not?

Sod it.

Let's change the rules.

We're probably going to have to change the rules anyway after certain events.

Well, why not just do this and have done with it?

Well, I mean, it's interesting.

We were just talking about whether teams actually want to get promoted and just when the fans want to see them lose every week.

There is a conversation amongst Manchester United fans at the moment where

would it be a bad thing to qualify for the Champions League?

Because it would be an utter embarrassment.

And if Amaram is talking about how United can't currently compete in

two sort of like competitions,

how will that play out in Premier League and Champions League?

But I mean, first of all, it's hilarious.

There's a lot of Spurs and National United fans getting annoyed at people saying, oh,

should they qualify for the Champions League?

And the answer is, obviously, the rules say they should, but obviously they shouldn't.

And that's what makes it hilarious.

It's a little bit like that team that accidentally sort of like just stumbles in and sort of gets in there.

But I mean, the implications are massive.

It's like you were saying, Max.

It's that thing of

this could be a real sliding doors moment between suddenly having lots of money, suddenly having lots of, oh, they're back.

You can sign players or like kind of like the abyss of like next season could be even worse.

And

I get the sense with Spurs in particular, like

there's like big financial implications of like they might have to sell.

some of the best players.

It's that situation where, and I think Manchester United and Spurs fans share this, where there is now less excitement about winning it and getting to the Champions League.

It's more like you want to avoid the humiliation of losing, like, like,

to lose to Spurs or to lose to Manchester United.

Like, is there anything more humiliating than that?

He's absolutely right.

He's absolutely right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This is going to be a very, very silly game.

Played on my birthday, as it happens.

There you go.

So, uh, I mean, yeah, I can't wait for it.

I mean, I'm terrified.

I don't know what you think, Barry.

With no dog in the fight, Barry, are you just sort sort of, this is absolute, this is real rubbernecking stuff, isn't it?

It is.

I'm really looking forward to it.

I suspect it could be a terrible game of football because the terror of losing will vastly override the

desire to win, if that makes sense.

And yet it could be an all-timer, a Hall of Fame game.

I would...

I would hate to have a dog in the fight.

I'm so glad I don't have a dog in the fight.

I think I would prefer Spurs to win just for the giggles, but put it this way, it's a long time since I've been this interested in a Europa League

match.

Doesn't the winner actually go into pot one for Champions League as well?

It's so ridiculous.

Yeah.

Is that right?

Yeah.

Amazing.

It's like a really...

But no knows what that means, though.

No one knows what that means.

It's like a ridiculous game show.

I was thinking about this, when you look at the league table as well, and I'd sort of you know, this happens every year when you go, look, you do your predictions and you say, well, this would happen.

Honestly, if you'd said, this is my table, and Man United is 16th and Tottenham are 17th, like you would have been, people would have been like, that's ridiculous.

It's just totally ridiculous.

It's sort of nobody in there, nobody who thinks they know about the game would have ever said that.

When I said I thought United would be 12th, people were going, really?

And it wasn't because they thought they'd finished that high.

A friend of the show

of mine, Miguel Delaney, talks these days of a post-table world where

the tables don't exist anymore.

The league table does lie.

The league table does lie, yeah, yeah.

So so that sort of Alan Hansen pronouncement you used to get in the night as well, you know, the the table doesn't he lie, uh, you know, that that that's over, that's over, you know.

I I just think it's a situation of like, uh, there's people talking, oh, a Spurs worse, a United worst.

It's almost like that Rio Bergman's port of like, just enjoy them both.

Yeah.

Just like that.

They're both so bad.

You may never get a situation like this where like

two of the big six

are so terrible.

Like just cherish it.

And that's the thing.

Like either side could could win 5-0 if they get the other one on a really bad day and they sort of turn up.

Sean Bon Jovi says, it's a pity the winner in relegation was wrapped up so quickly.

I can't remember a previous season with so many genuinely brilliant and enjoyable teams all playing their own game.

Do any of the panel agree?

It's kind of sort of good season, bad season

question that we sort of touched on before, Baz.

But I don't know what you think.

I think you can have lots of good teams who are interesting, but also be slightly flat because everything is done.

Yeah.

I mean, the Liverpool Arsenal game was a case in point on Sunday.

where I think we'd all hoped at the start of the season that could be a potential title title decider, but ultimately there was nothing at stake and the main talking point was the hostility

directed towards Trent Alexander Arnold.

It was still a decent game, but ultimately it didn't matter.

For several weeks now, we've all

you know, all the focus has been on the the race for the top five,

which is quite interesting.

Then there's the race for eighth, which is being played up.

I could not care less who's in the Europa Conference League next season.

And the thing is, as far as I know, eighth place might not even guarantee you European football unless City win the FA Cup, which is far from a given.

I think the interest in the race for eighth is massively confected.

The interest in the race for the top five, less so.

But if it ends up that

Forrest and Willa miss out, then it'll all be a bit

if you are Brentford or you are Bournemouth, I think it is different, right?

Like, like,

but I'm not, and most people aren't.

No, I know you're, I know you're not, but you know, it's not all about you.

No, but you asked me for my opinion,

that's my opinion.

Yeah, no, I did.

I'm going to go to Full Andrew Robinson here and go, that's how I feel.

I'm not going to tell anyone else how to feel.

That's how I feel.

the thing is i think what what the what the questioner is asking i think this is a good point is that we have had teams like bremford play well we've had teams like bournemouth play well newcastle you've had you know pep gradiola

fairly famous quote of him saying football has changed because of the way certain people play and there's been quite a lot of good football played in in different styles but what's happened is through through whatever reason we've ended up with a fairly uncompetitive Premier League.

Partly because, too, the big five, six, whatever, couldn't care and have decided to chuck it in.

But

it's unfortunate.

We've got those golfs at the bottom.

Those teams at the bottom.

Try and play the right way.

It's not possible unless you have

the players to do it or the right coaches to do it.

And I suppose the thing is that the league title winners, Liverpool, have played football in the same way as they used to but with the handbrake on a little bit more which is again shows things that are a little bit different than before but I mean listen this bit this whole argument has it been an exciting season I still want more of it I still want more to happen I still think more can happen

I'm hoping so anyway it's actually also how you kind of when the season starts you you you sort of analyze the football for football's sake right you watch matches and go this was a great game let's talk about this and as the season carries on it turns more into the implications of this.

Not how did

this guy kick this ball or, you know, wasn't this a beautiful past?

Those things are still there, but you're sort of thinking, what does this mean?

What does this mean?

And so the way you sort of analyse a season changes as it goes naturally, because it seems weird to lead with a meaningless football match.

It would be fairly chillish to go, oh, well, Bournemouth played great football, but it didn't really result in anything.

Nonsense.

They've played great football and enjoyed it, and their fans have enjoyed it and a lot of people enjoyed watching them.

One question I was going to ask in terms of the end of the season to make it more interesting is if instead of the traditional playoffs to get into Premier League, if there was a scenario where there was a playoff between the fourth from bottom, third from bottom from the Premier League and the equivalent from the championship and they had like a playoff united yeah if they had a playoff between each other to see who who goes into premier league who gets relegated would the premier league teams always win because you'd you'd think so but then they've had a really bad season, and the championship teams would be having a really good season.

Yeah, when did that?

That definitely used to happen.

Long time ago, in the 80s.

It did, yeah.

Yeah.

Chelsea went down as a result of

Charlton stayed up in 87 as a result of beating Leeds.

Leeds famously were singing, if you go to Old Trafford, clap your hands.

Obviously, because they wanted to go to play United next season, Man United.

Charlton came back and won that one.

That was more exciting, wasn't it?

Buddy, I think it.

Why do they get rid of that?

I suppose

you feel like 14 Premier League clubs are not going to vote for it.

That would be my guess.

I think it was to add more to the actual seat, so like more teams in the divisions would have a chance rather than, you know, yeah.

I think it was that, greater participation.

I think that's the case.

They do have a similar thing in Scotland now, don't they?

The second bottom team in the Scottish Premiership plays off the team that came comes second in the championship.

And I think in Germany as well, and it's the team in the Bundesliga tends to see it out.

It'd be great if any team with 40 points or less had to play off, you know, just work the way down.

Be good fun.

Anyway, we finished part two with a correction.

Lots of Leicester fans got in touch.

Lucy Ward was saying the Leicester fans were singing Champions of England, you'll never sing that.

To Forest fans, I was was slightly confused and just presumed they were too young to remember Notting Forest win the league.

Let's clear it up.

This is from Alex.

He says, hi, folks, love the podcast.

Leicester fan here.

Just got to jump in and correct a mistake from the last episode.

From Lucy, and so many fans of opposition clubs.

We sing Champions of England, you made us sing that, dedicated to our late, great owner, Vichai.

Vichai had a dream to build a football team.

He came from Thailand and now he's one of our own.

We played from the back with counter-attack champions of England, you made us sing that.

Whilst, like all clubs, we have some knob-ed fans.

We're also not idiotic enough to think that no other team has won the league before, considering we sing this week in, week out.

Rantova, all the best.

Alex, I would also like to correct Lucy Ward, yeah, who derived much uh comedy value from the way I pronounced the word which is spelt V-A-S-E vaz vaz or vase.

Yeah, an English teacher got in touch to say that

my

pronunciation is perfectly fine.

Yes, we do have this.

Max, how long says Mark?

Do you have to work with Barry before you realise there's variation in how words are pronounced?

Look up the word vase in almost any dictionary, and we'll show at least two pronunciations: the one common in Britain and the one common in North America and Ireland, as it happens.

Do better, says Mark.

All right, mate.

Okay, I will do better.

Don't you think do better is the most snappy thing you can ever write in an email?

Do better.

Do better or lazy.

It's just typical lazy do better.

I do apologize.

I will stop broadcasting immediately.

Well, if you may, Mark, let me finish part three and then we'll talk about it.

And we'll start by talking about the Club World Cup.

Hi, Pod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Doran says, hi, Max Barry, plus two.

I like that intro.

I haven't heard enough about how insanely unfair the Club World Cup is.

Clubs are picked due to popularity or TV ratings to receive a bonus of tens of millions of pounds for playing a few matches, making a mockery of financial fair play.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on it.

Thanks.

Doran, formerly of Southend, now of New Orleans.

Norz, have you any thoughts on the any interest in the Club World Cup?

I mean, currently no, but I suspect because there's only, I mean, there's obviously there's no men's World Cup or men's Euros, there's the women's Euros, and then there's this.

So, I suspect because there's a dearth of football, we will automatically get interested and the promotion will work.

And this jiggery pokery that

Dazone have done with the Saudis in terms of selling the rights and it being free to air will get people interested.

Currently, no, but I am kind of fascinated

in terms of how seriously clubs are taking it.

i know in south america uh any iteration of this is taken far more seriously

yeah

but i'm i'm also kind of interested uh in the situation where like you've had chelsea wanting to get players in before it uh real madrid uh willing to to to pay a nominal fee to liverpool to get trent alexander arnold in early even though they're getting him for free so he can he can play in it um and and and you hear various other stories about about uh teams wanting players in to take part so so they're obviously taking it seriously.

But, I mean, to be honest, I'm more interested in the fact that

you've got clubs from all regions around the world.

So, like,

seeing some of the Asian or sort of African teams play against

these big European and South American teams, I think that'll be really interesting, just to sort of like

it's that thing of in the current game, you kind of feel as if you can't be surprised anymore.

And like, but for like international sort of national tournaments like the World Cup or Euros, you kind of know every team.

Every team is super analyzed

before the tournament.

Whereas like for this, it kind of feels as if you are going to be seeing teams and seeing players that you genuinely don't know about.

So there'll be that element.

So

it'll be exciting in that sort of sense.

But I kind of don't want it to be a success because you know it's all very cynical

on every level.

But because people just want football,

I think the attention will grow.

Speak for yourself when you say you don't know everything about Mamalodi Sundowns.

What a name.

What a name.

Yeah, I know.

Great, isn't it?

I was just looking at the website

and I noticed that Lionel Messi is at the very top of the page.

And I was reading about how Into Miami were being mocked and David Beckham had to ask for them to be respected because they're not very good at the moment.

Minnesota's official club admin was having a pop into Miami saying, you know, you've got no history.

And then someone said, you began in 2015 or something like that.

I'm not an expert, but

David Beckham was like, respect means everything.

You're like, Becks, come on, what are you doing?

Lying in bed on your phone.

Just leave it alone.

Leave your notification.

Surely he's turned his notifications off.

Like, surely.

I mean, Beckham doesn't change.

He never really did like the criticism.

Did he come out and get a new tattoo or something or a new hairstyle to kick against it?

Now, this is what he does.

But we know what this is.

This is

that FIFA, look at UEFA's control of the Champions League and think of the money that makes, and they want a piece of the club game.

That's it.

And FIFA owning this railroads over UEFA's financial fair play.

A team like Chelsea, whose finances are a little bit dodgy, you know, they suddenly could trouser $100 million.

Manchester City, it's a club that, well, let's look there.

You know,

it's upending

the European thing.

The other side of it, I suppose, is,

you know, if you think of a one-world, we are the world, you know, type of thing,

global teams playing against each other.

It doesn't sound that bad, really, does it?

It sounds like,

but it does sound like a comic from the 1970s, though, of like, you know, like a futuristic football that, you know,

Roy of the Rovers go go to play a you know a a crack team from Australia or something like that that are as good or and it's just the thing is that the football's inequalities mean that it it can't be that and I suppose that the Gianni's sort of bono like dream is that eventually this is an equal playing field and that you are a red diamonds can eventually win the Sundowns can compete for this trophy when in fact it is likely that there will be you know three European teams and maybe a South American in the final four.

I think one of the things to look out for is the ticketing of this thing, how popular it is.

There's some fairly opaque messaging on that.

I think if you have a look at trying to find tickets, you'll find some interesting fixtures are selling very well and others aren't.

It's a interesting old tail, Paul McKinnon has done a bit of writing on this.

I'd have a look on that.

It's going to be,

it could be farcical.

It could be farcical.

I think the amusing thing, isn't it, that the trophy is still sat in Donald Trump's office behind him.

And it's, of course, Gianni Infino's

thing of getting close to Donald Trump.

I mean, it's wonderful.

It says everything about your love of football, doesn't it?

Yeah.

And actually, actually, the idea of seeing teams you don't know anything about coming up, you know, that sort of, like, like Mexico 86 for us is great.

It's just, it's just a, you know, the motivation behind it is perhaps as with many things when you don't even have to peel back the curtain this time, do you?

Anyway, Baz.

I think it's worth saying, though, like, the first World Cup, loads of countries didn't bother entering because they were, oh, it's in Uruguay too far away.

No one's going to take this seriously.

Yeah.

That was a mistake.

Yeah.

And Uruguay won it.

They've got their little star on the shirt.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it will have it there forever.

I've just had a look, and apparently, there's 23 games that will be on Channel 5, so uh, so you'll be able to watch those.

Yeah, I mean, I suppose, I suppose it'll be, it'll be a nice change.

You could, like, you could watch, like, a Club World Cup game and then, like, a documentary about Air Priors, so yeah,

will it be John Barnes presenting and uh, Jonathan Pierce doing a commentary?

I hope so.

This is like the golden day.

Do you remember the very, very early days of like Shelly Webb used to present like

on Channel 5?

Yeah,

yeah yeah yeah rjb says you mentioned that the orient offside goal in the the playoffs against stockport on saturday wasn't the worst decision you've ever seen what is the worst decision you've ever seen he says football or otherwise perhaps we confine it to football um does anyone want to go first i think i suppose as an irishman i'm i'm obliged to mention the thierie henrihan ball but I wasn't particularly exercised about that.

France were much better than us.

Shea Givens could have come and collected the cross and and it would never have happened.

But it's not so much one decision as the worst refereeing performance I have ever seen

was in the 2002 World Cup when South Korea knocked out Italy.

Byron Moreno

from Ecuador was the referee

and

He was so incredibly biased towards South Korea, who were the co-hosts that it just beggared belief.

But the beauty of it was no one really cared because everyone wanted them to beat Italy

so he gave South Korea a penalty they didn't deserve which they missed he failed to send off one of their players Wang Sun-hong for a red card offence that you know it should have been should have been sent off wasn't Alessandro del Piera got an elbow in the face in the South Korea penalty area that went unpunished then Mr.

Moreno sent off Francesco Totti for diving when he should have been given a penalty.

And I mean these were all blatant, blatant decisions.

He chalked off a golden goal.

Do you remember who remembers golden goal?

Who remembers golden goals?

He chalked off a golden goal scored by Damiano Tomasi for offside when it wasn't.

South Korea went through to the quarter-finals.

And then later that year, Moreno was suspended for twenty matches in Ecuador for entirely unrelated matters.

He was investigated by FIFA and I think he ended up taking early retirement.

And then in 2010 he was caught trying to smuggle ten pounds of heroin into JFK Airport in his underpants.

Wow.

And did two and a half years in the big house.

Can't imagine Craig Pawson doing that, can you?

I mean it's

god what a story that is that's amazing i've got to go and watch those highlights again yeah it's worth watching i watched them last night in in preparation for this question um but

yeah so that that just that performance was absolutely staggeringly bad i'm not going to say it was corrupt but it it didn't you know all the decisions went in south korea the co-host favour i think and the the beauty of it was no one get no one cared except the italians because they had a very bad reputation at the time as

cheating bastards.

It was sort of like they were getting their just desserts.

I was going to say, that's the one that stands out beyond, obviously, Hanball 1986,

which Maradona, which, again,

actually, you're sort of glad it happened.

It just adds to the myth of the man.

I mean, I heard

Terry Fenwick a few years later on another podcast on second captions describe the global conspiracy against the England team that led to this event.

So, you know, it's things don't change in football, do they?

There's always some.

29th of January, 2000, I went to, you know, when you look up an old BBC Matripor and it's the old font, the old style, and they've kept it like that, and I love that.

Cambridge won Bolton III.

Cambridge boss Roy McFarland was an unhappy man afterwards, accusing referee John Brandwood of bottling a decision after Mike Whitlow brought down Trevor Benjamin as he tried to race clear on goal.

The referee instead gave Bolton a free kick for an apparent foul by Benjamin earlier in the move.

The rules of the game mean they should have been playing with 10, McFarlane complained.

Benjamin would have been clear on goal.

Whatever excuse the referee gives for me, he has bottled it.

Bolton manager Sam Allardyce did not agree and believe the referee had got it right.

He preferred to concentrate on a good end to a tough week.

And he says, you look at these cup games and it makes you wonder why Cambridge are down there because they performed so well.

But I remember it clear as day, and he is clean through.

And Mike Whitlow,

I mean, it's such a foul.

And how he gave a free kick the other way, incandescent.

Would you like the Bolton team from the year 2000?

Just before you give us that team, Max, I would suggest, if recollection serves me well, that Trevor Benjamin being cleaned through on goal was no guess because Trevor Benjamin would score.

How dare you?

How dare you?

Here we go.

Jaskellinen, Holden, Ritchie, Warhurst, Whitlow, Bergson, Elliott, Jensen, Johansson, Taylor, Holdsworth with Good Junsen, Ricardo Gardner, who changed the game, Phillips Farrelly, and Banks on the bench.

So there we go.

John, you wanted to talk about the Riverside stand at Fulham.

£3,000 to £20,000 a season over nine different tiers.

I mean, £20,000 a season, I wouldn't stretch to it.

I must say, the pictures that were were taken alongside your article in the sun looked absolutely

lovely.

I thought maybe I'd really like to watch football this way.

But Tom Jenkins, yeah, our photographer, yeah.

Yes,

you know, I've been to a lot of football in my time.

I've very rarely

and I've written on football many places, but I've very rarely written with a glass of Verve Clico bubbling in my side, scallops being dropped at my table as I want.

Sea bream, you know, a bit of venison here and there.

Did you think, actually, this is how we should be doing football?

We've got it wrong.

Well, anyways.

Bovril and a pie is actually a really stupid idea.

One of the bars, I think, on the third tier is this

margaritas being served and, you know, just people just quaffing margaritas.

I mean, the thing is, there are absolutely no motifs of football apart from on the walkway to to Chad Khan's seat and in the swimming pool, which is yet not yet finished.

It's one of those, you know, the type you see from, like, say, Singapore or whatever, you know, this sort of ownership.

Oh, like an infinity, an infinity pool.

Yeah, infinity pool thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's not quite finished, but you are, it is modelled on a boathouse.

So you are like,

but it does feel like you're in an Agatha Christie novel.

You, you, you, you, this sort of, or the white lotus.

Or the white lotus, or, or, like, yeah, it is very white lotus or very sort of titanic as well which is probably a bad metaphor but uh it's i mean ultimately it is built because

for not football it's built for the 300 and whatever 30 days a year that craven cottage is not used for football you can be a member of uh and this sounds very you max a member of the lighthouse social uh in which you get to have

and uh which is a membership scheme you have to uh apply and there's a vetting thing, and it's possible you could be blackballed.

Oh, really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like Soho House.

It's that type of vibe.

God,

yeah, and yeah, but yeah, out in the sun, and Som took a very good picture.

In fact, I think there's a bird flying past, isn't there?

It looks absolutely brilliant.

Out in the sun after the game, as we sat on the deck, you know, throwing down the last of the free booze, I thought, yeah, this is the life.

But I have to say, as regards

Fulham 1, Everton 3, details of which remain quite sketchy to this point, because

some of which was because I was writing during the game, I must say, but

you feel quite a long way away.

You're quite high.

Sounds like that's the idea.

The football's down there somewhere.

We don't want to see this.

Well, it was like the Everton fans to the right, who are very loud, were sort of like the entertainment for the day.

Oh, look at them.

Oh, God, yeah.

I can see that the wisdom of the plan.

And, you know, this is how American sports do it, don't they?

That they make sure that the asset sweats itself, that the asset works during the rest of the time, it isn't just a football stadium.

Yes, I'd like someone to take me there.

I wouldn't be able to pay the prices to be a member, though.

There is a bottom bit where fans from the other stands could go and have a drink, and it's on this nice decking, and it's a pretty decent setting.

It's Craven Cottage, you know.

What it's like in winter-that's the interesting bit, though.

They do say that, you know, they want it to be a wintry scene because, I don't know if you've been to Craven Cottage in December, January, I'm sure you have.

It is brass monkeys down there because of the Thames, of course.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I actually thought John's article is very skillfully written.

What I especially loved about it is, do you know, you've got that thing about like whenever Louis Thoreau makes a documentary, he doesn't actually judge people, he just points a camera and lets people talk and you make your own decision.

It was kind of like that where John didn't sort of like give you an opinion.

He just laid things out to you, explained what things are like, and he just let the vile and anger sort of like grow.

thanks nos that's that was sort of what i was aiming for though someone did say how dare you write an advert for this place and it's like it it it wasn't it's just describing it as it is and uh

you can take it or leave it that's the whole point right if you've got no money yeah uh all right that'll do for today thanks everybody cheers baz thank you thank you john Cheers, Max.

Thank you, Nos.

Thank you.

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Our executive producer is Daniel Stevens.

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