Are PSG the favourites to win the Champions League? – Football Weekly Extra podcast

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Speaker 6 Hello, and welcome to Guardian Football Weekly. The all-new, likable PSG gets a vital goal in injury time to give them a healthy lead over Aston Villa.

Speaker 6 Nuno Mendez dropped the shoulder and took the whole Villa team with him and put it into the back of the net.

Speaker 6 Earlier, Axel Di Sazi had been turned inside out by Farat Shalia, and before that, Desare Doua hit one so well, Emi Martinez didn't even move.

Speaker 6 Feels a long time ago that Morgan Rogers put Unai Emri's men ahead. In Barcelona, Rafinho and co-destroy Borussia Dortmund.
Is it time to do a is it time to take them seriously?

Speaker 6 Claxon, we'll look ahead to the Europa League last chance saloon for Manchester United and Spurs, and also the race for fifth place weekend in the Premier League, including Archie's Fulham Minute.

Speaker 6 There's ticket sales at the Club World Cup, the retirement of Darren Cam. Your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly

Speaker 6 on the panel today. Barry Glen Denning, welcome.

Speaker 7 Hi, Max.

Speaker 6 Philippe Auclaire Bonjour Savat.

Speaker 1 Savantremier, Max. Tom Merci.

Speaker 1 Oui.

Speaker 7 And Archie Mintat. Hello.

Speaker 8 Gutentag.

Speaker 6 Okay, then let's begin at the Parliament Price, PSG 3, Aston Villa 1.

Speaker 6 Should we start then, Philippe, with those Declan Rice free kicks? No, I'm kidding.

Speaker 1 We'll do that in a bit. Okay.

Speaker 6 Let's,

Speaker 1 I mean, we can start with the PSG goals we saw yesterday I mean they were they were all brilliant weren't they Philippe yeah I think I've been I'm trying to think which is my favorite and I think I still I think the Krazkelia goal remains my favorite

Speaker 1 and I have a question actually because you know we've got terms in French to describe various species of skill that you don't necessarily have in English Perhaps because you don't see them as often

Speaker 1 or you didn't used to.

Speaker 1 No,

Speaker 6 People, fullbacks weren't rolling the ball over their start, you know, with their studs, you know, in the 80s, knocking it long, were they?

Speaker 1 Okay, so there is a word for that in French. It's called la rateau, a rake.
This is what we call it. A rattot,

Speaker 1 which is a piece of skill that you see very rarely these days. And usually it's performed in slow-mo, like somebody is showboating a bit, always trying to show that, yeah, he can do that too.

Speaker 1 And this one, that's different. This is the use of a very, very difficult particular piece of skill at speed to actually put the ball in a good position for an absolutely amazing finish.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I have to say, Kvaros Kellya, there's so many things I like about him. The fact that he looks the wrong shape.
He doesn't look like a footballer.

Speaker 1 It looks like his body, there's more mass in the bottom half of it and then in his neck or head. So he doesn't look, it looks a bit, it's been made in a lab where they were not quite on the job.

Speaker 1 And at the same time, he is so imaginative, he's so generous.

Speaker 1 I love his face as well. I love the way, I love everything about Grasquelyas.
That's not from yesterday, you know, that for a very long time.

Speaker 1 But that particular goal, I thought, that was just the essence of him in a matter of a few seconds. It was just gorgeous.
But, you know, we could, you know, Waxley recall about Desiridou,

Speaker 1 his shot when he's totally off balance,

Speaker 1 and also the fact that Nuno Mendes is a pretty decent left back who can also score pretty decent goals. I mean, yeah, it's been a ridiculous.

Speaker 1 We were just talking about it, you know, before we started recording this pod, that this has been most ridiculous couple of days in terms of the quality of the goals.

Speaker 1 And the three scored, I should say the four, the four scored, because Aston Williams' goal was a thing of beauty as well in a different style.

Speaker 1 I've been absolutely...

Speaker 1 Well, it's very hard to remember

Speaker 1 having so many beautiful goals scored in such a little space of time.

Speaker 6 Yeah, Will says Carlos Shelley's majestic stud roll, sending the fire engine to the wrong fire. He's up there with Messi's turn against Jerome Boateng all those years ago.

Speaker 6 Tim Bo, he says, and Adrian says, if Barry does a couple more runs this week, could he play fullback against PSG next week, please?

Speaker 6 I suppose that's the point with that goal, Barry, is that, you know, disaster's come on because Matty Cash has had a nightmare and is on a yellow card and can't stop fouling people.

Speaker 6 And it's like... like the first 10 seconds probably like your first jog you went well like you're not ready he just wasn't ready to be like spun inside out so many times, but it just wasn't fair.

Speaker 7 Yeah, at least in my first jog, I was on my own. So

Speaker 7 I didn't have to worry about being turned inside out. Maticash, I think he'd racked up four fouls in about 15 minutes, the opening 15 minutes.
So he was on a yellow.

Speaker 7 It was the pragmatic decision to take him off at half-time. Axel Desazi probably wasn't relishing having to come on

Speaker 7 and

Speaker 7 he was made to look a bit foolish, wasn't he?

Speaker 7 That correspondent put it well, sending the fire engine to the wrong fire. Farret Kila made him look pretty stupid.
Hey Man, Dezira Douwe were just outstanding for PSG last night.

Speaker 7 We've spoken at length this season about how PSG are no longer this clown show, but

Speaker 7 these guys are giving a bit of a license that the rest of the team doesn't really have. You know, they play through a very

Speaker 7 strict,

Speaker 7 rigid process, but they're given license to more or less do what they want. And boy, can they turn it on?

Speaker 6 I was just thinking, Archie, about Disasse, you know, being sent to the wrong fire. And maybe it's like a testament to the balance of defenders.

Speaker 6 It's actually rare that you see someone like look so unlook. You see a professional footballer look so unstable.
You know, it's like we hark back to Boeting. That's a long time ago, right?

Speaker 6 Most of the time, they're quite good, even if they do get turned of just like looking like they're good at this sort of thing.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I think it's a good point because,

Speaker 8 particularly, how fast and nimble attacking players are these days, you have to be prepared to be sent in 17 different directions with the amount of step overs you'd expect a high-quality winger to be doing.

Speaker 8 And to be able to read which one

Speaker 8 is the actual move. I mean, they always say, I think, look at the ball, not at the feet.

Speaker 8 The thing is,

Speaker 8 just watching it and how quickly the game moves when PSG or indeed Barcelona are playing it, you wonder,

Speaker 8 how are you meant to read that?

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 8 when your left back in Nuno Mendez is showing the composure to dummy before finishing, and you think, okay,

Speaker 8 that's something.

Speaker 8 And that's actually a bigger point I'd make as well: is that the way you score your goals can send a message to the opposition about what kind of night it's going to be.

Speaker 8 And for as well as Villa did to get in front,

Speaker 8 when they concede the two goals from Douay and

Speaker 8 it feels like we're all having a go at Clarat Skelia this morning

Speaker 8 and Kvarat Skelia, Villa must have felt, well, we've not actually done that bad a defensive job here, and yet we're still 2-1 down

Speaker 8 because of just world-class strikes. And I think that in these games, like how powerless that must make you feel mentally in terms of the chasing of it.

Speaker 8 And even actually, there was a cutaway to Unai Emery's face after Villa scored, and it wasn't exactly euphoric.

Speaker 8 And I know that as a coach in these situations, you're having to think about, okay, what am I doing next?

Speaker 8 But honestly, it looked like he was still at PSG the way that he was kind of thinking, okay, now what? Because it was almost as if he knew about the onslaught that was coming.

Speaker 8 And yeah, I mean, each of those goals,

Speaker 8 my personal favorite was the Douay one, just because there was no big drawback of the leg. And the way that he takes the shot means he has to fall over.

Speaker 8 And I think Martinez can't even telegraph it because there's just

Speaker 8 no sign of it coming.

Speaker 6 and yeah i mean they're all outrageous yeah i did wonder with due because the first time i saw it philippe i thought oh he's deck and rice that and then i was like actually that's not really in the corner but i guess as artist says it's it's come so quickly there's so much whip on it that martinez and martinez like you know he knows his angles right that that is as a goalkeeper that he's just he's just decided as i believe keepers should do if you think if you can't get it there's no point diving it could hit the bar and come back out no and it's one of those goals where you can look at it as many times as you wish and there's there's absolutely nothing nobody could have done about it because the defender doesn't do the wrong thing.

Speaker 1 The goalkeeper doesn't do the wrong thing because the goalkeeper cannot do anything. And it's one of those you just got to say, yeah, okay, fine.
He's a very special player.

Speaker 1 This is why Barcola is not playing. By the way, Max, I mean, I might be saying something very, very usual, but do you know where the expression to rush to the wrong fire comes from?

Speaker 6 I don't.

Speaker 1 Because it's a great football story.

Speaker 1 And it's from a match report by Jeffrey Green of the Times back in 1953, you know, the famous game between Hungary and England.

Speaker 1 And Billy Wright, who was the England captain, I think, at the time, was in front of Edec Gutti, who actually did something a bit like Varaskelia did, and with his studs. And he went the wrong way.

Speaker 1 And Jeffrey Green described that as rushing like a fire engine going to the wrong fire. This is where the expression comes from.
So this is, you know, this was, that's it. That's a lovely story.

Speaker 1 It's good to learn.

Speaker 6 It's good, yeah, it's good to learn as well. You know, it's very rare anyone learns anything from this podcast, I would say.
So it's good after the first moment of the 2024-25 season.

Speaker 6 And it's happened. Look, you mentioned actually, Barry, the organization behind them.
And actually, that midfield of Nevers, Vetinia, and Ruiz is just so good, isn't it?

Speaker 7 Yeah,

Speaker 7 Vetina's a class player.

Speaker 7 I think Barney wrote a sidebar on this game. and he said at one point during the first half, John McGinn had made six passes, and Vettina had made about 570.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 they bossed this game. I thought Villa set up quite well.
Villa were okay in the first half, and they could have got away with a 2-1 defeat, which I'd say they'd have been happy enough with.

Speaker 7 Vettina has been one of the players of the tournament, in my opinion.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Yeah, it's just, I mean, I would you echo that, Philippe? I just think that midfield is

Speaker 6 the balance as well, you know, because I, as you say, like, Bettino is just passing it all the time.

Speaker 6 Neves is just, I don't know how many kilometers he ran yesterday, you know, and Fabian Ruiz actually, I just think, is like such a stunning player.

Speaker 1 Fabian Ruiz, by the way,

Speaker 1 the pass

Speaker 1 which leads the cheat to Kvarsker's goal.

Speaker 1 I mean, when you think about the counter, watch again from earlier in the move, and you'll see a pass that he does, unbalanced which puts the ball exactly in the right channel it's absolutely it made us so artistic i think they are in a way the embodiment of um this new psg side the same way that you could say that uh douet uh is as well because douet does things that you would have expected our neymar or kiln bapet doing in the past but the difference is that douet also works going backwards and trying to get the ball back and he i mean his decision making yesterday night was crazy because every time he did the right thing every time

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 he is actually

Speaker 1 better than pape was at the same age i've just said

Speaker 1 he's better you did he's a more complete footballer i'm not saying he quite has got he hasn't got quite the speed the rockets in the legs and so forth and

Speaker 1 some of the most outrageous skills that that Pape might have, but he's a more complete footballer.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 to think that this boy still hasn't been selected by France is quite unbelievable, isn't it?

Speaker 6 Wow.

Speaker 1 He hasn't. He was part of the Olympic team.
He got the silver medal, you know, with Cherry Army, but that's not with the seniors. That's with the Black Sports.

Speaker 6 So who's got his plate?

Speaker 1 Who's Barcola? So it's like it's Barcola against Douett at PSG,

Speaker 1 and Douett versus Barcola in the French national team.

Speaker 6 So, and by the way, to be called desired gifted uh for a footballer is not bad is it yeah you're right i mean but it it this it does still sound mad despite all of us understanding why it sounds mad archie that you take neymar and bappe and messi out of a team and they get better at attacking i mean that's ridiculous but the key word there is team

Speaker 8 and and this is this is what they are now because if you look at that midfield that we've just been talking about of nevez vitinia and ruiz they don't have the star power

Speaker 8 or drag that other top midfields in Europe would have.

Speaker 8 Maybe they'll have that should they go and win the Champions League this season, which with each passing performance is becoming a more and more likely prospect until they inevitably face on current form Barcelona in the final.

Speaker 8 But this is a team that are working for each other and does not have the distractions of someone throwing their weight about needing to be recognized in some way

Speaker 8 or yeah, any sideshows. The star here is the football that's happening.
And, you know, last night and their goals was also one for, you know, they stuck it in the XG pipe and smoked it, I would say.

Speaker 8 Who needs all of that? And also, I think Declan Rice did that as well

Speaker 8 for the way that he was ignoring Nicolas Horvert, I think the Arsenal set piece coach and it's i it it must be difficult i think uh you know for philippe as well i i find it a little bit difficult because it's like we all know the the construct behind psg and yet this team is so fun god you can see why sports washing happens

Speaker 7 before christmas when the group stage was going on we were tittering at PSG's expense because it looked like they might be the big high-profile casualty in that extended group stage.

Speaker 7 They lost against Arsenal, they drew with PSV, they lost against Athletico, and they lost with Bayern Munich. So they haven't been this good

Speaker 7 all season.

Speaker 7 So to what do you attribute this massive improvement, Philippe, if I can ask?

Speaker 1 To be honest,

Speaker 1 I'm not too sure because no, no, no,

Speaker 6 they've moved MBLA, haven't they? They've moved MBLA.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but

Speaker 1 it's not just that. It's the fact that, I mean, to be honest, as we said, it's a new PSG and perhaps it takes things, you know, some bit of time to settle.

Speaker 1 And for Luis Henrique to actually put through all the things that he wanted to put through, it takes time. And I think the turning point was the game against Manchester City, probably,

Speaker 1 when everybody was thinking, this is amazing. Whoever loses that game is going to be in real, real trouble.
And it turned up, then how? Then things started to go well.

Speaker 1 And by the way, it's not as if it was some kind of purple patch for PSG, you know, over the last few weeks. No, it's been like this for a while.

Speaker 1 And the proof of it is that they're French champions already. You know, that's it.
They've won.

Speaker 1 And that's so it means that they can basically go to the beach in Liga and concentrate fully on the Champions League from now on, which is not exactly a great prospect for whoever is going to come next.

Speaker 1 I don't think there's much which has changed apart from the fact that the players are executing better what Ruisen Rique wants to do, and also the fact that, don't forget, they've bought a little player called Varaskelia in January.

Speaker 1 That makes a bit of a difference, doesn't it? So, he's a rival, plus the fact that the group has gelled and is now buying into completely what he's trying to do.

Speaker 1 I'm a bit surprised because, of all the teams that I'm seeing in Europe, this is the most free-playing of them all by a distance. And would you associate that with Luis Enrique? Not necessarily.

Speaker 1 It's just that obviously he's in, Christ, I've got some super gifted players here.

Speaker 1 Super gifted. Might as well, you know, make them.

Speaker 1 I see you were not nodding. You were doing the opposite of nodding.
And I don't know what the word for the opposite of nodding is. Archie.

Speaker 1 Who was?

Speaker 1 I think it was Archie when I said there was the most free-playing team in Europe at the moment.

Speaker 8 Because I watched Barcelona last night, mate.

Speaker 1 Barcelona were.

Speaker 1 Look at what they were playing against.

Speaker 1 Borisa Dortmut were absolutely awful, but we'll come come to that later.

Speaker 1 And we can disagree on this, but

Speaker 7 Philippe, you said PSG can sort of get on the beach as far as League One is concerned, but they're on course for an invincible season.

Speaker 7 I don't know if they've ever done that before or if anyone's done it.

Speaker 1 They've never done it.

Speaker 7 So I presume they'll be going all out to do that. And I also noticed their league match against Nantes at the weekend has been postponed so they get a weekend off ahead of the second leg of this game.

Speaker 7 And Nant are sort of in a relegate, they're not safe.

Speaker 1 Oh, no.

Speaker 7 So, how do they feel about that game being pushed back? Or do they care? Or do they have to give their blessing?

Speaker 1 No, it's a decision taken by the league. And it's always been thus.

Speaker 1 And to be honest, it's a very controversial kind of move and both national and international level because it gives French clubs, because not just for PSG, it's happened for other clubs, probably an undue advantage compared to some other leagues.

Speaker 1 But but there you go. It's the league's prerogative.

Speaker 1 As to none, they're so rubbish that I think that the B team of PSG, which by the way, is not a bad-looking B team, would dispose of them quite easily.

Speaker 1 When I say going to the beach, it means that he will be able to rest all the players he wants to rest. Sure.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, and you say, okay, this, this, so Barcola, Barcola might play the next game for PSG instead of Dui. Oh, that's terrible, isn't it? I mean...

Speaker 6 I just want to move the subject to Villa because we haven't really talked about them and fair enough, PSG were brilliant. But I mean, that third goal, Archie, kills them, doesn't it?

Speaker 6 Because to get out of there 2-1, given how the game went, and it will be different. Villa Park is different, and Villa Park can be an amazing atmosphere.
And you just think if it had been 2-1,

Speaker 6 I think Villa would probably have been delighted.

Speaker 8 I'm not sure about delighted because of what they've seen in the previous 90 minutes, and also

Speaker 8 knowing what PSG did at Anfield.

Speaker 1 That

Speaker 8 with, you know, you talk about the amazing atmosphere at Villa Park, it didn't seem to exactly disturb PSG too much going to Anfield, being a goal down, and see the freedom that they played with there.

Speaker 8 The biggest concern is that it took two magnificent actions from John McGinn, seeing things five seconds ahead of everyone else for firstly the goal, but then the chance that Villa get in the second half for them to really create much.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 this Villa team, as we've seen in the Premier League,

Speaker 8 they have a lot of quality going forward. And for them to be so limited, I don't think any Villa fan is walking out of the Parc de Prance last night being angry at all.

Speaker 8 Because when you are that comprehensively outplayed, when you think about the journey that Villa have gone on in the last few years under Unai Emery, who I think is the perfect coach for them as well, I think there's a point where maybe the right mentality for next week is just try and enjoy it as much as they can.

Speaker 8 They do have a coach, even at even at 3-1.

Speaker 8 If there's a coach who I would want in my corner to try and come up with a plan for overcoming this sort of deficit, it would be Unai Emery. But to find out what that plan is, I don't know.

Speaker 8 I know he was the plan,

Speaker 8 the man behind the plan for PSG when they lost, what was it, 6-1 in the Raymontada at Barcelona.

Speaker 8 But at the same time, I put him in that top echelon of European coaches. And yeah, it's still been a stunning season for them, even if they are knocked out here.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, one thing I would say for Villa, I mean, there were positives

Speaker 1 and really important ones.

Speaker 1 First of all, Marcus Rashford. I mean, we have to mention that because he didn't get much of the ball, but when he had it, he made something happen.

Speaker 1 The exquisiteness of their first goal, which was a beautiful team goal, and the that you never had the impression that they gave up. They stayed where they were.

Speaker 1 They're not as good an assemblage of players as PSG is, right? Okay, fine. But they never gave the impression that they'd given up the ghost or they were not trying.

Speaker 1 And even in the second half, there were moments I thought it wouldn't take much, you know, a little bit more precision, perhaps, a little bit more trancheon or whatever you would call it, for them perhaps to make it 2-2.

Speaker 1 And even though there were no real chances, there were some half-chances of half-dangerous occasions. So they were not ridiculous at all.

Speaker 1 They were actually as good as I think they could be in that particular context. And at 2-1, I thought, this could be interesting.
Now, it's over. Let's not, you know,

Speaker 1 it's gone.

Speaker 1 Goodbye. If this is over, what's Barcelona Dortmund, mate?

Speaker 6 Well, we'll get to that in just a second. It is worth pointing out, not quite enough cutaways of Prince William for my liking during this game.

Speaker 6 But look, he did give it some when they scored, fair enough. That'll do for part one.
Part two, we will do Barcelona for Dorman Nil.

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Speaker 6 Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So, as we have mentioned, a bit of a humbling night for last year's finalist, Borisia Dortmund, elite David Nugeting from Rafinia,

Speaker 6 Lewandovsky's 24. Rafinia was great, it has been great.
I loved Yamiles Topoke. What did you make of it, Archie?

Speaker 8 It was Rafinia's time in England that gave him that kind of finish, obviously.

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 1 let's start with that.

Speaker 8 But in all honesty,

Speaker 1 Barcelona outclassed Dortmund.

Speaker 8 It was a joy to watch. And to see a team play with that kind of intensity,

Speaker 8 I was very struck by it. And it's why when Philippe was talking about PSG being the most free-playing team,

Speaker 8 I have to disagree with it only because of just what my eyes have seen last night and just the way that Barcelona play with this confidence and the way they shift the ball about.

Speaker 8 It is different from PSG, but still,

Speaker 8 I struggle to pick out a Barcelona player who I would say, there's the weakness because they were all on such form. The most obvious place you start with is Lamin Yamal.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 the contest against Rami Benzabaini and how I've seen him kind of being chased about by Benzabaini and struggling to even...

Speaker 8 Benzabaini was trying to foul him, but couldn't.

Speaker 8 That's the issue. Look, it ends up 4-0.
Dortmund had a few chances, but every time Dortmund had a chance, Barcelona had more.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 8 I love how

Speaker 8 adventurous they are with

Speaker 8 their high line and how they can seemingly catch you offside in the most unlikely of places, as Serugi Rassi found out. From a German perspective, it's nice to see Hansie flick smile.

Speaker 8 I'd been told that

Speaker 8 he was a lovely guy behind the scenes, but we never really saw that at Bayern. He always looked quite grumpy and stressed.

Speaker 8 And now he seems that the shackles are off and he seems to be really enjoying life.

Speaker 1 And I couldn't believe it as well. He's 60.

Speaker 8 He's looking exceedingly well for 60.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 7 God.

Speaker 6 He is, yeah. Rafinha has 12 goals and seven assists this season in the Champions League.
I mean, I loved his cushioned header. That is so hard to control that.

Speaker 6 Matthew says, as a Leeds fan, not a day goes by this season that I'm not more astonished that Jesse Marsh had Rafinha on long throws.

Speaker 6 It must be said that he is still loved by Leeds fans for single-handedly saving us from relegation in 2022. Seeing him come alive at Barca is incredible.

Speaker 6 I don't want to give you an open goal question, Barry, but I just just don't know what the question is after that.

Speaker 6 But I guess it's similar for all of us who watched him at Leeds and thought he's not bad. And then when he went to Barcelona, I don't know about you, we were all like, really?

Speaker 6 Like, I know he's good, but that is a big step. And for him to be delivering like this is sensational.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I think I remember checking when he signed for Barcelona. It is, that is the leads, Rafina, is it?

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 7 Because it seemed like a weird move

Speaker 7 from a Barcelona point of view. And it hasn't always worked out for him.
They wanted to get rid of him at one point and couldn't. And he instead of spitting the dummy, he put his head down.

Speaker 7 He's worked incredibly hard and he's more than holding his own in that front line of

Speaker 7 him, Lewandowski and Lemin Yamal.

Speaker 7 We've spoken, you know, he probably won't win the ballon d'Or, but he s should certainly be in the conversation.

Speaker 7 People are wondering now will L Lemin Yamal win the ballon or will he be overlooked because he's too young and they'd rather give it to an older player? Because at some point John Barrage.

Speaker 7 Lamin Yamal will win it again, you know, at some point in the future.

Speaker 7 But I think there's a case to be made for both of them. Incredible stories, because Lamin Yamal is still only 17 and just looks the finished article already.

Speaker 7 And Rafina came from Leeds.

Speaker 7 Barcelona tried to sell him on.

Speaker 6 So who was it they wanted to bring in instead of him? I can't remember. Nico Williams, maybe?

Speaker 7 Oh, yes, that's right. They wanted to bring in Nico Williams.
That didn't work out for them. So Rafina stayed and

Speaker 7 he's been just outstanding.

Speaker 7 And he is on course to

Speaker 7 beat Leo Messi's record contribution for Barcelona this season, albeit

Speaker 7 he'll have had a couple more games to do so, won't he?

Speaker 1 The other thing for Rafinha is

Speaker 1 he's not a very young player at all. It's a bit of a Dembele case.
It's like you wonder where this player has been hiding. He's 28.

Speaker 1 You know, and you have to remember before he went to Leeds, he was at Rennes, where he was excellent, by the way, at Rennes. He was at Vittoria Aguimarés in Portugal.

Speaker 1 So he's had, he's actually coming quite late in his career. That's quite extraordinary.
And suddenly he becomes this player. By the way, I have a question.

Speaker 1 Can you remember a game in which two goals were scored by players as close to the goal line as Barcelona Dortmund? Because Rafinha is one, but the Lewandowski header as well

Speaker 1 was he almost nudge until it. Almost, but not quite.

Speaker 6 Yeah,

Speaker 6 he had to touch it, didn't he? Yeah, but like, it, but, and also quite hard not to hit it. Oh, it was almost above the goal.
So he just had to sort of stand there.

Speaker 6 He couldn't actually, you know, the whole idea, you know, when they say there's no pace on the cross, and you've got to generate power with his neck.

Speaker 6 Lewandowski actually had to just sort of almost withdraw power, like just let it hit him. That's all he could do.
That's the only way the ball was going in.

Speaker 6 Well, do you have an answer to this question, Philippe? Is there a game that you can remember? Oh, I see.

Speaker 1 No, no, I can't. I can't actually remember a game in which this happens twice, that the ball is literally inches from the finishing line.

Speaker 1 One thing I would say, I mean, I would put a

Speaker 1 maybe not a dampener on the judgment of this terrific Barcelona team, but Dortmund had actually a number of chances and big chances.

Speaker 1 And had Gerassi been in a normal kind of mood, he had one of the worst games. He perhaps had the worst game of his career.

Speaker 1 I can't believe the misses that he had.

Speaker 1 I mean, the first one, the air shot, was ridiculous. That was absolutely awful.
I can't believe it.

Speaker 8 I've got to disagree with Philippe for a second time because

Speaker 8 I saw him play at Cologne.

Speaker 8 And there was an open goal miss against Hanover, which I still to this day,

Speaker 8 it was Carnu Westbrum against Middlesbrough bad.

Speaker 1 Okay. Okay.
So,

Speaker 8 yeah. But

Speaker 8 I fully agree with you. Girassi's form, which has been pretty good throughout this season.

Speaker 8 He scored at the weekend against Freiburg coming off the bench, but he'd been six games without a goal since then.

Speaker 8 And I think it's more reflective of how he's been infected with the Dortmund virus of, oh, and now we turn up for certain games. And

Speaker 8 this result, this kind of performance had been coming for ages in Europe because Dortmund have refused to put in the yards in the Bundesliga for so long and they are fighting for their lives to get into the Champions League again next season.

Speaker 8 And there was one quote from Nico Kovac after the game last night where he was saying that there were times he thought where players were maybe sparing themselves running some yards because they thought they could run those yards going forward.

Speaker 8 That cannot be your mentality. And it is symbolic of a team and a club which is facing a huge amount of problems right now.

Speaker 8 Even if they were without the injured Nico Schlottebeck, who's very important for them, centre-back out for the next six months with a meniscus tear in his knee.

Speaker 8 There needs to be widespread changes at the club, probably in the hierarchy as well as on the pitch. I'm not sure whether they have the right coach for them either.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and that all bore out on the pitch for the first time.

Speaker 8 There are still Dortmund fans who are scratching their heads wondering how they reached the Champions League final last year.

Speaker 1 And I get it.

Speaker 6 Papered over the cracks, didn't it? Philippe, come on then. How were you when Declan Rice put the first one away and then the second one?

Speaker 1 Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1 I was on the cloud and the cloud is still drifting, pushed by a gentle breeze over the Emirates Stadium. And

Speaker 1 disbelieving, I think I laughed. I laughed a lot during that game, I have to say.
And I've watched those two free kicks.

Speaker 1 And Michael Marino's exquisite third goal, which is a thing of beauty as

Speaker 1 I watched them many, many a time,

Speaker 1 just to ask myself, of course, which one I preferred. And

Speaker 1 I think the second one. In the end, I think the second one, because of the way that the ball, the net has to shape-shift almost because of the ball.

Speaker 1 And it's that this gent, it's both incredibly violent, but it's caressing the netting in such a way that the first one is more of a kind of an amazing swinger, you know, first session at Lord's on a green pitch

Speaker 1 which is pretty amazing the second one there is something about it that you see very i mean very rarely and first of all it is a proper top corner we very often use the expression top corner but this one is the top corner of the top corner of the top corner you know it's a bit like the vashkiri label you know when you look at it the laughing cow has got a laughing cow in it which has got a laughing cow so it's almost like this we're entering another dimension of top cornerism.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 it's perfection. And

Speaker 1 this reaction as well is just gorgeous. I mean,

Speaker 1 I don't know what to say.

Speaker 1 I'm still on cloud now. No, no, that was good.
That was good. Yeah, I'm not, you know, entirely reassured by the prospect of having to go to their place.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I know that I... I think I'm on the pod the day after that.

Speaker 6 Yeah, you and Nikki.

Speaker 1 Me and Nikki. Okay, so we'll have to see how the Jinx is the Jinx has been

Speaker 1 broken. We'll have to see how when we get together,

Speaker 1 what effect it has.

Speaker 1 I don't know because two negatives would be a plus.

Speaker 6 Yeah, but one plus, one minus.

Speaker 6 Look, you're in a good position. You're in a good position.
You'd have taken it. You'd have bitten your arm off to have that for the second leg.
But as you say, you just don't know.

Speaker 6 Europa League tonight then. So Manchester United go to Leon.
Spurs host Frankfurt. Rangers play Athletic Bill Bauer and Bodo Glimps play Lazio.

Speaker 6 And, you know, this is, it's all or nothing, Barry, isn't it? For both Manchester United and for Spurs and for Ange, isn't it?

Speaker 6 How do you see them?

Speaker 7 I don't know is the answer because I don't really know how good on track Frankfurt or Leon are. I know how bad Spurs and Manchester United can be.

Speaker 6 That's for sure. Yeah, well, actually, actually, let me stop you there.
We have two people who might be able to answer answer your question.

Speaker 1 I should probably have answered that.

Speaker 6 Let's start with you, Archie.

Speaker 6 What will Spurs get from Art Track Frankfurt? They're third in the Bundesliga at the moment.

Speaker 8 They are, but third would imply that they're close to Bayern Munich and Bayerleva Kusen.

Speaker 8 And whilst they have been in individual games this season, they were closest to them when Omar Momouche was at the club. Hugo Eketike is still having a very good season up front.

Speaker 8 Mario Goetze has been revived

Speaker 8 in really sensational fashion and it's nice to see given the way that his career had dipped.

Speaker 8 I mean, I think all careers dip to a certain extent when you score the winning goal in a World Cup final. But I think given the hype that he'd had to face in his career,

Speaker 8 there's younger players like Hugo Larson in the center of midfield, who is very much worth watching out for as well.

Speaker 8 Frankfurt can be a very dangerous team. They are also a young team, though.

Speaker 8 Oh, and they've got a very eccentric Brazilian goalkeeper called Kawa Santos who can do the sublime and the ridiculous.

Speaker 1 So it should be fun.

Speaker 6 Right. Ahead of the Leon Man United game, in a surprise endorsement for Massimo Taibi, Nemanjamatic, who is now at Leon, called Andrei Inana one of the worst goalkeepers in the club's history.

Speaker 6 He may not have been sparing Massimo Toyibi when he said one of the worst. Inanna said, I would never be disrespectful to another club.

Speaker 6 We know that tomorrow will be a difficult game against a strong opponent. We focus on preparing a performance to make our fans proud.
At least I've lifted trophies with the greatest club in the world.

Speaker 6 Some can't say the same. It's an odd thing to do to come out before the game, you know, and shit talk.

Speaker 6 Someone else, I don't know, Philippe. I don't know Nemanjamatic personally.
But what should we expect from Leon?

Speaker 1 I don't know what to say to that because it changes from one weekend to the next.

Speaker 1 They've had a very strange season. As you know, Leon has had numerous off-field problems.

Speaker 1 They're at the moment threatened by automatic relegation because they've basically torn every regulation of the financial fair play and all these very strange arrangements.

Speaker 1 I know the lawyers are listening, so I'm not going to go into that. He's got what he wanted.
Almada and Nuama, and two players who are concerned about that, are in the team.

Speaker 1 Alexander Lacazette is still there. Oh, okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And scoring goals.

Speaker 1 Of course, the danger man is Rayan Cherky. He didn't play in the last last game against Lille.

Speaker 1 But, I mean,

Speaker 1 it's a bit of an unpredictable kind of team. And, you know, they haven't got a coach at the moment.

Speaker 1 And sometimes it can work to the advantage.

Speaker 1 They have got a,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 caretaker coach at the moment, and they've had for a couple of months already.

Speaker 1 I would say that on their day, they're a dangerous team,

Speaker 1 but they're a little bit unpredictable. They can be free-flowing at times, but they can be also not that solid.

Speaker 1 I mean, so it's very much, they're doing better than Manchester United is doing, obviously, in the French league, because if you look at them, you see they're fifth, and they're actually not that very far from third place, only two points behind Monaco.

Speaker 1 So the results have been better over the last few months. But again, I don't know really what to expect from them.
They do have quality. There's absolutely no doubt about that.

Speaker 1 And as to Nemanja Matic, I will tell you one thing.

Speaker 1 For having interviewed him once uh after a game i would never cross that man he's very very tall and very very strong and i wouldn't i wouldn't i wouldn't uh question what he has to tell me honestly andreo nano is also quite tall though yeah well maybe we could have a duel

Speaker 6 here's harry hill uh there's nothing that's good for it um all right well look they'd sound like uh worth watching those games then uh tonight if you're listening to this pod before they happen come on spurs Come on, Ange.

Speaker 6 Just imagine they win the Europa League, then the Champions League next year.

Speaker 8 I think he's doing Adabayor to the fans.

Speaker 1 If they win the Europa League, he's knee-sliding in front of them, right?

Speaker 6 Yeah, probably.

Speaker 6 Probably.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 Anyway, that'll do for part two, part three. We'll do a bit of

Speaker 6 Muller Corner, of course, a bit of championship, Premier League review as well.

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Speaker 6 Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. Assess to a bit of Bundesliga stuff.
Thomas Muller leaving Bayern at the end of the season. I presume is the big news in Germany.

Speaker 6 Made his debut in 2008. He's been at Bayern for 17 years, played 743 times and scored 247 goals and so many trophies.
I mean, was it a surprise? What's the reaction been?

Speaker 1 Outrage. Because...
Really? Yeah.

Speaker 8 Why couldn't they give him another year?

Speaker 8 Is the feeling from Bayern fans. And the club have justified it, saying that this is not a financial decision.

Speaker 8 This is a sporting decision, which makes it less understandable, but makes you think they are trying to put all their resources into making a push for signing Florian Witz from Baya Labor Cousin this summer.

Speaker 8 It's been handled poorly. Muller has come out and said that he wanted to have another year at the club.
And

Speaker 8 now to why

Speaker 8 there's such feelings of emotions.

Speaker 1 He is the

Speaker 8 identification figure of modern Bayern he is how Bavarians would like to see themselves

Speaker 8 because of the way that he plays,

Speaker 8 this gangly figure who looks like he got passed up on for being a Thunderbird, who has this unbelievable timing in the box.

Speaker 8 And when he mishits it, it goes in, he mullers it. And then you come to the person, the way that he talks, his down-to-earthness, his charm.

Speaker 8 And yet, after defeats, he's the one who shows up in the mix zone with his no-nonsense and

Speaker 8 on the nail,

Speaker 8 if that's an expression, on the nail

Speaker 8 takes on what's happened. I've had the pleasure of interviewing him on quite a few occasions, and just

Speaker 8 his charisma is magnetic, and how he comes up with these things in a second language as well.

Speaker 8 And talking about, well, Stuttgart is not Stoke, but it's like we've played in Stoke, doing an impression of the Roadrunner. I asked him once, why have Bayern scored so many goals?

Speaker 8 And he went, because we are hungry.

Speaker 1 And then he growled at me and then he walked off.

Speaker 6 Do you think it's a power struggle between him and company? Like, do you think company is gone? I don't want this.

Speaker 6 Or do you think it's just company doesn't want to play football that Thomas Muller, like the way company wants Bayern to play doesn't work for Thomas Muller?

Speaker 8 His legs have gone to an extent, Max.

Speaker 8 But against a deep-lying defence, as we saw against Inter,

Speaker 8 his understanding of space is so impressive. And I think this is more about the club than it is about company.
Whilst company probably... doesn't think

Speaker 8 he can give him all that much game time and there is a pressure of having Thomas Muller in the squad because at every press conference, if he's not playing, then there will be a question that goes up and goes, Why is Thomas Muller not playing?

Speaker 8 As you would expect about the record appearance maker of the club.

Speaker 8 And I think Thomas Muller, as well, the name in itself, it's like one of the most, it's like John Smith in that sense, and he is the everyman. And just one more little anecdote, if I may, please.

Speaker 8 There was a moment in the tunnel at Laver Coos in Bayern a few weeks ago. There were a few ambulance workers who were looking for a selfie with Thomas Muller and he obliged.

Speaker 8 But there was a match day official who said, sorry, this can't be happening here. And Thomas Muller was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 8 We're all human beings here.

Speaker 8 There is not a problem here. Everyone can have their photos.
Like, yes, but it's like, honestly, not a problem.

Speaker 1 And like that.

Speaker 8 Seeing that soothed my soul a bit. That's the person that I have seen that Thomas Muller is.
And for him to have that kind of humility about him despite being the person that he is, yeah, respect.

Speaker 1 It's just, I was wondering,

Speaker 1 that was for Archie, it's because Bayern usually

Speaker 1 the great players of its past, like the Romenigos and the Hernesses, they become and Kants, they become members of the staff and the hierarchy at Bayern.

Speaker 1 And is this going to happen for Thomas Muller at some point in the future? Or does it mean that precisely the the

Speaker 1 honesties of

Speaker 1 this time have to go first before he can be called back in?

Speaker 8 Yes, Max Abel made a joke about it as well, saying that given the way things will go at Bayern Thomas Muller will probably come in and fire me in my job as sporting director.

Speaker 8 He will be at the club in some form.

Speaker 6 All right.

Speaker 6 Pudzy says, is there anything better than a hometown lad scoring 94th minute winner with a worldie of a scissor bastard?

Speaker 6 Yes, Jamie Patterson, Coventry City player, scored this brilliant goal to beat Portsmouth. I mean, the stadium went abs, the fans just went totally wild.
Lampard dancing away.

Speaker 6 And the tune, the song for Jamie Patterson is, he calls it a batch. He calls it a batch.
Jamie Patterson, he calls it a batch.

Speaker 6 Because apparently, if you're from Coventry, you call a bread roll a batch.

Speaker 6 And so they are very excited that he goes with that.

Speaker 1 You sound like an anthropologist. A cob in

Speaker 6 Nottingham Forest, big cob shop.

Speaker 7 A blah in Waterford.

Speaker 6 Is that right? Okay.

Speaker 6 A roll if Central Cambridge

Speaker 1 for Catcher.

Speaker 6 Forgive me.

Speaker 6 Now, so let's talk about Liverpool contracts quickly. Most Salah, Virgil Van Dyke, close to renewing their deals.
Does that surprise you, Barry, that they're both sticking about?

Speaker 7 Salah does, I think. I thought he would leave, and he still might.

Speaker 7 Virgil, not a huge surprise.

Speaker 6 Yeah. No, that's fine.
I asked your question. You answered the question.
Those deals haven't been done, but they're both saying, you know, it's getting closer.

Speaker 7 The one thing I would say is Virgil hasn't exactly been covering himself in glory recently.

Speaker 6 He's looked a bit old.

Speaker 6 There was one really random one. I can't remember who was it against when he sort of jumped.

Speaker 6 It was against Betto, wasn't it?

Speaker 1 But it was Everton.

Speaker 7 Beto got the better of him twice.

Speaker 6 Yeah, Muniz did for Fulham, didn't he? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
We'll get to that, Archie, in a second.

Speaker 6 In your race for fifth place, all the sides from third to ninth probably should win.

Speaker 6 Forest, Everton, Chelsea, Ipswich, Newcastle, Man United, Man City Palace, Villa go to Southampton, Fulham go to Bournemouth. Okay, that's not simple, but they're not on a good run.

Speaker 6 And Brighton hosts Leicester. So it should very much be as you were.

Speaker 6 Archie, a Fulham minute. You wanted to talk about our coverage of the win over Liverpool.
Is this going to be a compliment or are you about to go into the comments?

Speaker 6 But be on the pod by saying, I can't believe you didn't talk about my club or whatever. It was great.

Speaker 1 I loved it.

Speaker 8 For me, it was like Fulham getting the Rolls-Royce treatment. First on Football Weekly means you get proper detail on everything that's happening.

Speaker 1 And you're like,

Speaker 8 oh, yeah. And they're going at that.

Speaker 1 They're talking about Calvin Bassey. Bloody hell.
Look at this.

Speaker 1 This is fantastic.

Speaker 1 Yeah. No,

Speaker 8 I enjoyed it. Still a bit annoyed that my mum selfishly decided not to spend her birthday at Fulham Crystal Palace, and that's why we lost

Speaker 8 in the FA Cup quarterfinal.

Speaker 1 I mean, along with Marco Silver's

Speaker 8 along with Marco Silver's refusal to change his approach from the league game against Palace.

Speaker 8 So everyone else won't have watched the league game, but the FA Cup game was just a replay of what happened there.

Speaker 8 But yeah, look, the Liverpool game was a lot of fun. Ryan Cessignon coming back into form.
It looks like he's been on the waits and his revival makes your heart sing.

Speaker 8 Rodrigo Mooney is completely doing what he did to Virgil Van Dijk.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 8 All of the above. Still don't think we'll quite make it.

Speaker 1 12th of Barry's prediction.

Speaker 1 There's still a part of me that thinks it might happen because I'm an eternal pessimist. But no, it's good fun.

Speaker 6 Jim says, which member of the panel wants to lead the tributes to Premier League stalwart, World Cup final official, and most memorably, pointless champion, Darren Cann, ahead of his final top-flight match this weekend.

Speaker 6 Yeah, the 56-year-old will be on the touchline at the Etihad for Man City versus Palace.

Speaker 6 It will be strange.

Speaker 6 He feels like he's the linesman for every game. He's one of them.
And then it's like somebody with an enormous neck doing the other one. But, you know, it's little Darren Cann.

Speaker 6 He's always there doing every match. So, you know, well done on a great career.

Speaker 7 I have to say, I didn't know he was a pointless champion and I could not pick him out of a lineup.

Speaker 6 Oh, really? He's the one Lino that doesn't look like all the other Linos.

Speaker 7 Right. Okay.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I think you would recognize him.

Speaker 6 Club World Cup ticket prices. Philippe, over to you.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 it's actually almost quite funny what is going on at the moment with those tickets.

Speaker 1 As you know, it's a difficult competition to sell to the point that the BBC and ITV have decided that they didn't want to show it at all.

Speaker 1 And the crazy thing is that they're desperately trying to flog the tickets. So Jenny Infantino constantly reminds people that they should be coming.
He did it again. He was at an event, which was the

Speaker 1 Live Golf Miami tournament, which took place at the Trump National Doral Course, which is like a

Speaker 1 full card on Jenny's bingo, isn't it? Bingo card this one.

Speaker 1 And the extraordinary thing is that there are tickets.

Speaker 6 Today I am 10 under par.

Speaker 1 The thing is that they have got all these kind of packages, which means that you can get tickets for the Club World Cup, for the World Cup proper in 2026, if you buy enough tickets for the Club World Cup a bit like buy two get one three except that it's not buy two get one three it's buy 20 get one three got it if you want to have the chance to buy a ticket for the final of the world cup in 2026 and the result of that is that I don't think I've ever seen this happen before is that some tickets are actually cheaper on the secondary market than they are on the official sale site that because they're sold and there was an example which was found by Martin Ziegler of the Times to give him its due a ticket that was on sale for a round of 16 games in Miami

Speaker 1 was $105 or $106

Speaker 1 on Ticketmaster which is the official FIFA partner and when you went to Via Gogo it was only $88.63.

Speaker 1 So that would suggest that the offer still exceeds the demand by some considerable distance.

Speaker 6 Producer Joel had been doing some he was on Ticketmaster so maybe these are the official prices $83 for Man City versus Wydad, $50 for PSG Botofogo, $60 for Man City versus Alain, $55 for Benfica Bayer Munich, $40 for Auckland City versus Boca Juniors.

Speaker 6 Real Madrid games, yeah, have all sold very well. Two have sold out.
But yes, it's be an interesting old tournament, won't it, Philippe?

Speaker 1 Well, it will be interesting

Speaker 1 with brackets. Yes, it will be very interesting.
First of all, we'll have to see in which state the players will be. Then we'll have to see how many people are in the stands.

Speaker 1 And basically, we'll have to see if we can actually watch that on any other thing than the zone in this country.

Speaker 8 Max, the big question is, you know,

Speaker 8 have yours and Barry's contracts been extended through to the summer to cover the Club World Cup?

Speaker 1 You know, like, forget about the players, the extended workload on you guys.

Speaker 6 I'm deep in discussions, but Luna, it's looking positive, Archie. I would say, I don't know about Barry.
I don't know about Barry, but I have nothing better to do.

Speaker 6 But, you know, if you think we're in the red zone now, I haven't got a lot.

Speaker 1 Well, you got

Speaker 6 you got to start jogging, Barry. So, you know.

Speaker 6 Claire says, hi all, Jack Grealish and his Alice band and his band of Alice Alice band-wearing devotees have been mentioned on two podcasts in a row.

Speaker 6 And I couldn't help but think of Hong Yun-sang, a beloved youngster who plays for my nowadays local team, Pohang Steelers, who play in K-League One, the top division in South Korea.

Speaker 6 Hong has often cited Grealish as an inspiration and sported an Alice band for a while. He's often been referred to as Hong Grealish in the Korean press.

Speaker 6 Not sure whether this was a nickname of his making or not. He's probably heading off to do his military service soon, which is sad both for our team and for his coiffur.

Speaker 6 An Alice band and a buzz cut seem an unlikely mix. Thanks for the pod.
Gives me a glimmer of hope during my morning commute as I wait expectantly for a few crumbs of Everton coverage. Cheers, Claire.

Speaker 6 That's okay, Claire. Thanks for listening out there in South Korea.
And that will do for today. Thank you, everybody.
Thank you, Barry.

Speaker 1 Thanks.

Speaker 6 Thanks, Philippe.

Speaker 1 Thank you, Max.

Speaker 6 Thank you, Archie.

Speaker 1 Thank you.

Speaker 6 Fiba Weekly Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

Speaker 1 This is The Guardian.