Penalty drama in Madrid as Real find a way yet again – Football Weekly Extra podcast

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Why do we ever think there'll be another outcome?

Why do we even begin to think there will be?

Absolutely agonizing for Athletes.

Julian Alvarez, who was brilliant all night, a double hit penalty.

Fair play to the VAR for working that out so quickly.

It's a massive call.

Did the crowd know?

Did the players know?

Did the journalists know?

And then Rudiger squeezes it past Oblak and Real Madrid, of course, are through.

Athleti were perfect for 45 minutes, scoring so early and not giving Rael a moment to settle.

Rael improved in the second half and Beppe had one run, won a penalty.

Vinicius baggiot it into the Madrid sky.

So Carlo Anchilotti's men will play Arsenal and all their left backs in the quarterfinal.

2-2 in a second leg.

They probably didn't need to play against PSV.

Aston Villa and Marco Assencio breeze past Bruges.

He'll get the chance to take on PSG.

While last year's finalist, Dortmunds get past Lill.

Also, there's a Carabao Cup final to look forward to.

A Premier League preview.

An apology to Bristol City fans.

Your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, welcome.

Hiya.

From the Racing Post, Mark Langdon.

Hello.

Hi, Max.

Hey, good morning, Nikki Bandini.

Morning.

And in his classic part one style, Sid Lowe, live from Madrid.

Hey, Sid.

Morning, Max.

Well, look, you were there, Sid.

I mean, it was a brilliant and a sort of exhausting game.

And,

you know, I guess we can get ground down by football sometimes, having worked in it for so long, but it must have been so good to be there.

You were talking about it being exhausting in those last few minutes just before extra time.

And obviously, look, this is partly selfish and it's about the fact that you're on a deadline and you try to get the match report in and that sort of stuff.

But the last few minutes of normal time and the last few minutes of extra time, I was terrified.

I was like really the like really tense and and i i didn't have any skin in the game in terms of who won and it was but just the kind of the tension of it all um i mean your introduction says it all it was always going to end with rail madrid winning the question was just how they were going to do it which which incredibly cruel twist of fate was was there going to be this time

a var penalty disallowed is um there's the spanish phrase i don't really know how best to translate it but they basically say curl the curls, which is to say, you know, it's getting even more ridiculous.

You've already got the curls, let's curl the curls, let's make it even more

even more

twisted, I suppose.

And so let's perm this perm.

It's like Anita Dobson, and you've got, like, no, let's make it even tighter.

Yeah, can we start with the Alvarez penalty then?

Because that is so agonizing.

And I just want to know what was it like.

I saw Semrahunt on TV saying she didn't know what was happening.

Like, did you know what was happening?

I wonder if the players even knew what was happening.

Well, some of the players clearly did, but I don't think all of them did.

Shall I be really, really, really honest with you?

Please.

I don't know whether I should do this thing as I wrote the match report.

When Realm Drew's players ran off celebrating, I didn't understand.

I wasn't sure what was happening.

That makes sense.

I'm going to show you.

Obviously, no one can see this because they actually just listen to the bot.

This is my grid of the players taking the penalties.

And it says, Julian, and there's a big tick.

It says, high into the net, 2-2.

And then underneath it says, wait.

And then underneath that, it says, okay and then when validate valverde scores it says next to it free two

it doesn't say

it you know it doesn't say free one at that point this is free two and and and then it's just saying i look we could be here all day talking about this but i think this is one of the problems of var and i don't want to get on my var high horse i really don't because there's lots of other fun things but one of the problems with var is that the people who are treated the worst by var are the people who are actually in the stadium if if only because of communication now obviously i know it's not var's fault you could have var and communicate better.

But when that happened, I think a lot of people in the stadium, I'm sure I wasn't the only one, weren't sure what was going on.

The scoreboard didn't change, at least not immediately.

And then obviously you're back into the shootout, so you're not really sure anyway.

The referee did this gesture, which was kind of, you know, to pull his arms across, to, you know, ruled out.

But having had a period of time with his finger in his ear, to be honest, I thought that was him saying, no, we've checked it and everything's fine.

Yeah, me too, me too.

And

I genuinely had no idea what had happened.

And then I thought, I think it might have been taken out, but then kind of everyone carried on, which, of course, they would because you can't do anything else in a penalty shooter.

So when Madrid started celebrating, I was like, oh, it didn't count.

And yeah, I mean, in the stadium, it's a very, very strange experience.

And for Realmad to win a game when I didn't even realise they won a game

was quite weird.

I'm quite sad that Sid wrote wait in his grid and not hang on a minute.

I mean, you know,

you're up against it time-wise those extra words hang on a minute and obviously anyone who's ever been on our subs desk will be there thinking hang on a minute you wrote fewer words than you had to this and that

because I think our subs hate me I think they they I have a very bad reputation but anyway yes I wrote fewer words than I needed to on that occasion Barry it's a it's a miracle does anyone else feel that that I know you can't take a free kick to yourself and that's sort of what a double hit is I don't know if you agree Nikki but it feels like a retake is the right thing I can't even see that they can see it I've watched that so many times and I can't see it.

I think that's the thing that feels so bad with this one, isn't it?

I've watched it back and you think, does he get a second touch?

I see the logic in it because the way he's hitting it, his standing foot is slid in front of it.

It should hit it.

But it's not crystal clear on the coverage.

And there was all sorts of...

internet misinformation for a minute during on social media stuff people saying oh there's a chip in the ball and they've registered the chip in the ball and then afterwards the spokesperson came out and said there wasn't a chip in the ball so they didn't have some special way of tracking the contact it it did seem very ambiguous and i think the inconsistency that a lot of people jumped on right away is that if a goalkeeper comes off their line and makes a stop you do a retake right rather than it being considered

done um or sorry if they come off their line in any situation you do the retake so i i think the retake in that situation where it's clearly not deliberate feels like a fairer solution i've i've had this slight feeling this morning of

as scandalized as we all feel by it.

And I was thinking when I was watching it, oh, that's so unfair.

Would the reaction to this have been fundamentally different if it was the other way around and Athletico had benefited not Real Madrid?

Because we're so used to Real Madrid getting these big decisions.

And I think there is a little bit of communal frustration that, oh, they've got away with it again from everyone who doesn't support Real Madrid.

But

I do think that I just wanted to say as well quickly on Sid's point about the VAR, because I completely felt that even watching on TV last night, like it looked really obviously like lots of people aren't going to know this is happening because it wasn't very well communicated.

And we did have in the League Cup recently officials using the microphone and telling people things, which I have thought they should have done from day one with VAR, like they do in American sports.

But of course, when we got those...

They do it in Australia, in the A-League, they do it.

Yeah, and well, then you can tell me, Max, is that popular there or is that not popular?

Yeah, I think so.

It works works really well.

Sounds good, makes sense.

Because in England, it felt like everyone just wanted to take the Mickey out of the guy's speaking voice because it wasn't what they expected and not really focus on the point, which was actually, I thought it was a good thing having the communication.

Yeah, I mean, I did that too, I'll be honest, when I heard Sam's deep voice.

But anyway, Sid, correct me if I'm wrong.

I think I remember them doing this in the Women's World Cup.

And in one of the Spain games that I watched, I can't remember which one it was for which apologies.

The referee, I don't know if it was because her English wasn't quite good enough but basically she tried to give the explanation and we had absolutely no idea what was going on because because

obviously there has to be very clear language and it wasn't it was kind of like well it's okay but what's okay what's happened and and so that that can be part of it one just one very brief thing it was occurring to me obviously look this is this is the rule and therefore in a way there's no point in arguing with it if we trust that that there was two touches and there's some angles where it looks like it is and somewhere I'm not quite so sure but you know that's kind of another issue.

The nature of this rule or the spirit of this rule is someone's trying to get an advantage.

But obviously, there's no advantage in it.

No one would do it deliberately.

And here's the thing: right, if you're actually talented enough to deliberately do a two-touch penalty,

let it count, right?

Because it's an amazing piece of skill.

If you're doing it deliberately, why would you take that away from people?

I wonder, I sort of understand what he's saying.

Like, had it been Athleti who benefited, then maybe we'd felt differently.

But, Barry, because Athleti were so, especially in the first half, were just so brilliant, it did feel like injustice.

Yeah, I mean, no one wants a game decided like that.

Interestingly, on, is it CBS?

I think Real Madrid did.

Yeah.

Fair point.

Is it CBS?

The Kate Scott, Jamie, Mika, and Thierry Henri banter show.

They had Christine Uncle on to try and make sense of this.

And she said that...

with the help of touch point technology, her words, I don't really know what that means, and semi-automated technology, the officials are able to discern if there was a double touch that might not be perceptible to the naked eye.

So if that's the case, then fair enough.

Interestingly, some people seem to think Alvarez was penalised because when

he planted his standing foot and it slipped,

that's what hit the ball, but it's it's more that he struck the ball with his right and it then hit his left, so that's where the double touch was yeah I suppose you have to take your licks there but

it was interesting Vasquez in the center circle he clocked it and Jude Bellingham they both complained to I presume it's the fourth official is keeping an eye on them in the centre circle or on the halfway line so they both appealed and I wonder if they hadn't appealed would this even have been brought to anyone's attention it's difficult to know well Angelotti said off the game that there was some footage that made it look like the first person to notice is is jopis who's the the goalkeeper coach at rail madrid and angelotti was asked directly about this after the game and he said well i didn't realize he said honestly i didn't notice and he said i was kind of going backwards and forwards and and kind of you know trying to live with attention and he said but in any case he said i think by the time we said something they were already looking i think the protocol says that they're immediately looking anyway you know there is a kind of a broad conceptual thing here which is that it the the nature of var because we're looking so close at things we're looking for infractions rather than seeing infractions, if you see what I mean.

The nature of it means it does feel like really tiny bureaucratic things are becoming what decides things all the time now.

Yeah, Mark, we should talk about the game itself.

And like I said, I just thought Atheti in the first half were just brilliant.

Like from right from the start, you know, they get the early goal.

Connor Gallagher was, who for that first 45 was so good.

Simeone.

You know, you sort of think, is that nepotism?

And you think, bloody hell, no, because he was seriously brilliant.

And I just thought they were excellent.

they were i really um in terms of diego simeone i was enjoying the fact that he was getting really wound up and then telling everybody else to calm down all the time he sort of he spent the entire 120 minutes sort of being really angry but making sure everyone else was calm it was kind of you know the perfect athletic game plan really they they weren't interested in possession real madrid created very little um from from open play next to nothing really apart from the penalty which is just that moment from Mbappe that wins it and they looked by far the more dangerous in terms of getting that second goal once they went one up and you know they didn't go forward that often but when they did that they created opportunities they worked quite toi I think it was eight shots on target they had in the end and what were the best side really for from for most of the game and you know it will feel yet again sort of hard done by

to go out to Real Madrid just quickly moving back to the penalties Jano Oblak has got to save that Rudiger one.

I think that is a goalkeeping error.

It's hard to say that there's a goalkeeping mistake in a penalty shootout, but I mean it wasn't a good penalty.

He's there and then I mean I think he just should keep it out.

So

that was another sort of heartbreaking way because it looked like he'd saved it and then it bounces up into the net as well.

And Real Madrid enjoyed the celebrations afterwards on rival turf as well.

They didn't seem like they wanted to get off the pitch.

Yeah, that Rudiger penalty, Oblak's right leg kind of went from under him as well.

There was a lot of players slipping in this game, but his right leg kind of went, so he wasn't able to get as much spring as he would have liked.

But

he did get a lot on the ball regardless.

So

he'll be happy that Julian Alfa has taken all the heat off him.

And Alfred was so good, Sid.

I mean, I think we probably took him for granted when he was playing for City, you know, because City had loads, you know, and I just thought individually he was brilliant.

A couple of times, the ball was absolutely sort of whacked at him, and his control was incredible.

Yeah, he's been really, really good this year.

Look, obviously, I come at this from a position of ignorance because I've not seen a huge amount of him at City, but I've been surprised by how good he is, by all of the things he does, not just the goals.

And I think he's on 23, is it for the season, 24?

I'm not sure.

In all competitions, I think it's 10 or 11 in La Liga.

He does all of the things that a Simeoni striker does, except he doesn't really have the body for it.

But what's interesting is he does those things anyway.

You know, he's not like Diego Costa used to be.

He's not even like Louis Suarez was.

And Louis Suareth was at the kind of the slow end of his career then, but still had the body to impose himself.

And Julian does that really, really well.

He's been exceptional this year

and part of an athletico team that's played really, really well for most of the season.

And this is their big week.

They lost it at Ghettaf at the weekend.

They've just been beaten by Realmje.

They've got Barcelona coming up this weekend and a week that was kind of all or nothing is starting to look a little bit like it might be nothing what what about conor gallagher because he did have a great he tired like and i think that's fair enough given his work rate but i i mean he it was interesting seeing him like just nipping at bellingham and definitely having the better of him in that first half at least Oh, definitely.

Conor Gallagher's had a slightly strange season.

He had a brilliant start at a point when Atletico weren't playing very well.

And he was the guy kind of, he scored a couple of goals.

He was the guy sort of arriving late into the box,

being sort of really intense chasing people down doing all of those things but as athletico started to settle into a pattern that started to work because the truth is the beginning of the season was was a bit weird they dropped some points that they shouldn't have done and they started to get a settled team and essentially the one doubt that simeone has almost every game is who plays on the left of midfield is it Conor Gallagher or is it Samuel Lino?

And that's basically based on whether he wants the intensity in the extra midfielder or someone who's opening the pitch out and a bit more attacking.

And he's tended to go more often for Lino in recent weeks.

And so Conor Gallagher's kind of initial impact has faded a bit, but in those really big games,

he still feels like the perfect Simeoni player, the kind of player that Simeoni wants.

And you're right,

I thought he was fantastic yesterday.

Career, I thought, was absolutely fantastic as well.

I thought he's just had a five-game ban, hasn't he, domestically?

Have I got that right?

Yeah,

he called the referee the son of a thousand bitches.

A thousand?

A thousand.

Would it have only been if he was it like if he'd done 200 in a one-game ban?

It's exactly proportional.

The five-game ban would have been would have been two and a half for 500 pitches and you know, downwards and downwards.

Am I being uncharitable here?

I don't know.

Because maybe it's the substitutions and you just talked about with Gala coming off Alino, and of course, Griezmann as well comes off.

And I think it's kind of reasonable both players run out of steam a bit as well in a long match.

But

I felt like having been great for so much of not just the match, but the tie,

there was maybe like a little bit of a lack of courage in extra time.

I thought extra time was really like uneventful.

And I felt like Madrid, Real Madrid were there for the taking last night.

I didn't think they were impressive.

I didn't think they had that sense that Real Madrid often have in Europe where you think, oh, but they will score.

Obviously, Vinicius misses his penalty in regular time.

And it just seemed like they maybe Atletico took their foot off the gas at a point when they could have not.

I suppose this is a kind of a broader debate that we could all, you know, we could have endlessly.

I do think there's been

at the risk of sounding like i'm i'm kind of riding to the rescue of diego simeone who doesn't need it i think there is sometimes in in spain it happens a lot this kind of slightly facile thing that points a finger at him and says it's your fault you were defensive you got it wrong i personally think and there's you know this is a personal analysis and other analyses are welcome that across this tie the burnabau and here in terms of their approach,

they were perfect.

I would agree, maybe an extra time, perhaps not.

I think they were basically perfect.

perfect say madrid weren't didn't look very good and didn't make anything happen i think that's partly because of the way they approached it if you allow real madrid to run

then then what's going to happen is they're going to they're probably going to batter you and so for example yes they real madrid only really escaped once and they got a penalty from it and in the first leg they almost didn't escape and they scored twice and and so the so the the the the problem i suppose in a way is you look at how well athletico control them and because of that you think madrid aren't very good and so then you think well go for them yeah but if you go for them you're not controlling them anymore and and in extra time the Correa substitutions, to me, said, this is a team still going for them.

And I think you're right as well that part of that is about exhaustion.

And once Rodrigo the Paul goes off, who I thought was absolutely brilliant in both games, and certainly in the first hour at the Burner Bale, I thought he was just phenomenal.

Then I think in a way it's kind of inevitable.

And the change, and taking Griezmann off, for what it's worth, is it unfair of me to say Griezmann was the one African Commodore player who didn't perform last night?

I thought his touch was loose.

I thought people were getting away from him a bit more than they should do.

There was one moment

actually, I think it might even be the one that leads to the penalty.

I think it is, isn't it?

It's the ball to him at the far post.

He tries to bring it down.

He's a bit slow to get to it.

Kamavinga takes it off him.

And he can't go after Kamavinga.

He can't read it.

By the way, I thought Kamavinga had a really good performance when he came in.

And that one run from right on the edge of the Realm of the Six Yard Box is what leads to the penalty.

And so there's a bit of me that thinks the problem is that Simeone creates a context, which then leads us to argue that he should do something else.

But if he'd done something else, he hasn't created that context in the first place, if you see what I I mean, and whatever he does, Real Madrid wins, so you know, what's the point?

Sid, I heard a remarkable statistic on the radio yesterday.

Uh, you might be able to confirm it's true.

Is it true that Atletico Madrid have not lost a home game in the Champions League or European Cup since 1997?

Yeah, since

I can't remember if it was Dortmund or Ajax, I think it was Ajax.

I can't remember.

Lil beat Atletico in this season's championship.

Oh, is it a knockout?

Is it a knockout?

Oh, knockout.

Oh, knockout stage.

Oh, do you say

that?

Knockout tie at home.

And Bellingham post-game said, said, which is really quite like you said, he said, we lost, we drew, and we won in the same game.

And it's sort of true.

And we sort of forget that the last time these two met, Real Madrid went through.

It was the last European night of the Calderon.

And I remember Simeoni make a big thing post-game saying, well, we did beat them, you know.

And obviously, it wasn't enough because they lost the first leg.

Well, I mean, there's other more, even better stats than that, Barry.

These two teams,

every time in a single-legged tie that it could have gone to extra time since 2013, 2013, it has done.

This is the ninth time these two teams have gone to extra time since 2013.

So it nearly always takes an extra 30 minutes or penalties or something.

And then also, if you go through it, this is obviously the sixth time in Europe now that they've faced each other.

Realm should have gone through all of them.

The first time they needed a playoff, a replay, there's been two finals.

Obviously, one went to penalties.

One needed a 93rd minute goal from Serkey Rams to take it there.

The other was two games that was finished 1-1 with an 89th minute goal from Cichelli to Anande.

And the other one is Roundry winning 3-0 at home where you think, well, that's it.

Then that one wasn't close.

Let's go 2-0 up at 15 minutes into the second leg, thinking we can do it.

And then Benzema has that moment of magic.

And then last night's penalties, but not just penalties, penalties with a VAR penalty ruled out.

It's always close.

Did you see Simeone's thing last night, which I quite liked?

He said, in the future, one day.

When they're there in their moments on their own thinking about it, they will think, God, bloody hell, those guys made it hard for us.

Yeah, they did.

They did.

and that's what football's about isn't it you know that's what you do you know show us your medals no show us how hard you made it for us and also here's where at least i found out that cesar aspilacueta didn't retire five years ago nice to see that crisply tucked in shirt um uh thank you sid lovely work you can go back to bed or whatever you want to do today

no i've got i've got to tell i've got to put all of this in writing now everything you just said i should i should just be dictating it put it all in i think it's released in audio format i'm not sure but hopefully

and then you can have that i'll try but then that means i've got to wait for it to for it to be brilliantly produced then i've got to write it all down type it all up i should have just been dictating as it as we went uh cheers it thank you bye bye that'll do for part one part two will round up the rest of the champions league

Hi pod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Aston Villa beat Club Bruce 3-0.

They go through 6-1 on aggregate.

I wonder, Mark, because the games weren't brilliant and Bruges aren't a European giant, is there a danger that we don't sort of celebrate Aston Villa getting to the quarterfinals of the Champions League?

Like first time in 42 years, however, they've done it and whoever they've had to play.

I think there is that danger, yeah.

I think it's a brilliant achievement.

You need a bit of luck in the draw.

Liverpool finished top of the league phase and get PSG.

Aston Villa lower down, end end up with Club Bruges but you know that's the way these things work out.

It is a fantastic achievement.

I didn't think that the league phase was easy for Villa.

You know they had some difficult games

beat by Munich in one of them and Juventus as well at home was

a big match for them.

And last night it was a really strange atmosphere particularly in the first half.

I think the fans wanted Villa to you know play a normal game and to go at Club Bruges but you know Emre

quite quite sensibly was

aware that it was 3-1 and there was no need to do anything risky.

And

there was like a subdued sort of feeling around the ground.

It wasn't until second half, the goals go in, that everybody can start celebrating.

But yeah, it's a fantastic achievement, particularly if you're not used to playing in Champions League.

I think it can sort of take teams by surprise and actually

you tend to get better the more you're in it and used to it.

So, for Villa

to just get straight into it, into the quarterfinals,

a tricky game, obviously, coming up now against Paris Saint-Germain.

But is there any other way for PSG to go out than to lose to a goal scored by one of their players?

That would be a new way.

So, Asencio will be sort of

potentially a key figure in it.

But I also think as well with Villa, the first half, it looked like they sort of didn't play well.

But I think that part of that was down down to the fact that they were trying to control the game.

And so, because of that, Club Bruce looked like they were playing better than I felt that they were, if that makes sense.

Hopefully, it does.

I think it makes sense.

Yeah, I presumed that Ascensio wouldn't be able to play against PSG unless PSG, like me, had forgotten he'd left Real Madrid.

But UEFA rules state that clubs cannot apply any influence whatsoever over the players that another club may or may not field in a match.

So, Villa have already played against one of their own players, Samuel Illing Jr., who's on loan at Bologna, played against them.

I mean, interesting, Nick, isn't it?

The impact of Rashford and especially Asencio.

Now, Rashford gets that player's sense of by running through.

He sets up Ascencio.

Asencio scoring seven in eight is just

amazing.

Yeah, it's definitely difficult as an Arsenal fan not to look at that and think, what were we doing in January when all these forwards that we needed, nothing happened?

Yeah, they've done brilliant business, Villa.

I think especially when you think about even earlier in this Champions League campaign, Duran and how brilliant he was and how big of a deal it could have been to lose a player like that.

And they just have not missed a beat.

If anything, as you say, have got more variety to them now.

And Rashford's running was really, really great in this game.

I do want to just come back a bit on

Bruges because I think I know it's not...

a sexy Champions League name club Bruges compared to some of the teams in the draw, but we're literally talking about a team that did beat Villa in the group stage.

We're talking about a team that just knocked out Atalanta, who won the Europa League last season.

They're not there making up the numbers.

They've played some good football at times and I think really even in this game even on 10 men for

most of the first half I think they had two-thirds possession in the first half.

So they are

a capable team that I think in fact

the one thing they maybe have been missing in this Champions League campaign even though they smash a load past Atalanta is a bit more ruthlessness at the top of the formation.

They've been quite good at managing games, but not always about punishing opponents and that felt like a big difference last night was just Villa are,

I was going to say blessed, and maybe that's the wrong word because they've earned it, right?

You don't just stumble across having good forwards, you sign them, but they are currently, I think, uh, in a situation where they have an abundance of very useful forward players.

And as you say, Ascensio has been brilliant since signing, yeah.

And actually, look, Bruges was with a better side in the first leg, and Villa were probably lucky to win that one as comfortably as they did.

Look, now they have Paris Saint-Germain Baz, and that is, you're right, it's not easy, but it's a great draw for them.

And if if they can keep it tight-ish in Paris, Villa Park will be amazing for that home leg.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it.

And I hadn't thought of the Essencio connection, but that would be funny.

Apparently, this thing of lone players not being allowed to play against the parent club, I think that's a peculiarly English thing.

I don't think it applies anywhere else, but certainly never applied in the Champions League.

I thought Yuri Thielemans was outstanding in this game.

Some of the passes he was picking out were brilliant.

If he can deliver like that again against PSG, Villa will pose them all sorts of problems.

I've no doubt Villa will pose them problems.

But

I would probably expect

PSG to go through.

Obviously, Unai Emery, he was a manager of Bantarira PSG and it didn't really go too well for him there.

So he has a score to settle.

Um, and it's a I mean, look, we're into the quarterfinals now, so they're all exciting ties.

But uh, I certainly looking forward to this one.

Can you make a case for Villa against PSG, Mark?

I think if PSG played the way they did against Liverpool, I would expect PSG to go through, but football doesn't work like that, does it?

You don't just sort of because you've done something in the last game doesn't mean you'll do it in the next game.

So, I think that what Villa have got is a lot of counter-attacking threat, and and that there is that opportunity because PSG play a risky game.

Usually both fullbacks go forward.

They'll defend with the two centre-backs.

Mendes was probably more defensive against Liverpool than I'd seen him previously because of the Salah effect.

But usually

they put a lot of players forward.

And from Villa's point of view, they are good on the counter-attack.

I do wonder whether that Villa defence is good enough to stop that PSG forward line.

So, I think PSG are the favourites.

And Una Emre will definitely be up for this one.

And when he's got a score to settle, as Arsenal found out on more than one occasion,

I think

he will

find the plan.

It's just whether the players can execute it.

He was ridiculed for part of his time in Paris, mocked for the video sessions that he put on and how boring they were, and how he was too interested in tactics rather than sort of letting them sort of freestyle their way in matches.

So it'll be a big game for him outside of the fact that it's a Champions League quarterfinal.

Trying to work out what would be the better movie out of the Salah effect or the Essencio connection.

But, you know,

I'm here for both.

At the Emirates Arsenal due 2-2 with PSV, they go to 9-3 on aggregate.

They managed to fit four left backs into their starting 11.

And then five when Calafiore came on.

50% of their outfield players were left backs.

You know, Arteta got a chance to rest a few players.

Perhaps the biggest story, Nikki, is Raheem Sterling has had a terrible time since joining.

It really hasn't worked.

He set up both.

He looked lively.

And afterwards, he said, look, you know, the season is not done.

I can still do something this season.

And I think everybody would sort of will him well on that score.

Yeah,

the first assist is more about

Zinchenko doing something on his own.

But the second assist was really...

Yeah, sorry.

That's a little bit like Steve Lomas claiming an assist for King Cladze's isn't it?

They all count.

Exactly, they all count.

But the second one was vintage Sterling, wasn't it?

It was exactly what we remember him doing at City when he was at his best at that burst to get down the sideline, the determination, the cross, all of it was fantastic.

And it would be brilliant for Arsenal if he can do more of this.

Of course, he then goes and gets himself banned from the next leg of this competition with a completely unnecessary challenge at the end of a game that tie that his team is leading 9-3.

So that was a bit silly when he might be needed in this competition.

But no, good timing for him to get a confidence boost.

He's not old, Max.

He's 30.

He's got every reason to believe he's got more time to play top-level football.

So why not?

Why not let him do some more of this?

And Real Madrid?

It was funny because I actually was watching this one with my brother, who's a season ticket holder.

And he was saying throughout

the Madrid game, he was saying, I don't know who I'd want us to play.

I don't know which of the two I'd prefer for us to play.

And I think he actually felt like he'd prefer for Arsenal to play Real Madrid because Atletico managed games so well and he thinks that Real Madrid at least will leave spaces for Arsenal to attack into, which I think they will.

But I think I still feel like, as I did the last time I came on, Max, when you haven't got centre forwards, that tells.

And I think especially...

I don't think Arsenal can play the game that Atletico played, or the tie, I suppose, Atletico played against Real Madrid.

I don't think they can keep it as tight as Simeoni did.

And I think they will want to play a more open game.

And

my gut is that Real Madrid will always come out on top of those situations.

Having said that, and maybe this is more one for Sid who's now gone, but my feeling with this Real Madrid team is, even though we have this expectation that in the end, Real Madrid always win, I just don't think this Real Madrid team is at the level it has been last season, for instance.

And so I think it's not impossible.

It's not impossible that Arsenal could beat them.

Yeah, I should know this, Mark.

Will they have any of their attackers back?

So Havertz

definitely won't be

out long term.

Saka, the feeling is that he'll miss the first leg and then

the second leg remains to be seen.

It's just what's even if he is fit, like, is he at the sort of levels that you need to be at for a Champions League quarterfinal against Real Madrid?

And will it take time for him

to return to something like his best?

It may well do.

I think this was a game where probably only Arsenal fans were watching.

It wasn't the highlight of

the card.

But when I watched the highlights, I thought it was remarkably optimistic of Perisic when he made it 8-2 to get the ball back.

Maybe they were just trying to win on the night.

I don't know if he sort of shouted, he may well have shouted still, nil-nil as he was sort of running back.

So the PSV fans were up for it for the whole game, definitely.

That was definitely noticeable.

So I think maybe it was for them as much as anything to give them something to cheer.

And they were at AFC Winwarden the night before and sort of added a few to the gate

singing along as well.

So that they enjoyed their trip to London, even if it was a pasting on aggregate.

It's interesting that Mark says only Arsenal fans were watching this because two Arsenal season ticket holders I know had paid 80 quid each for tickets for this game before the first leg and didn't bother going.

Nikki's brother wasn't there either, I presume.

He would have been if he could have been.

He had to help look after the kids last night.

But in terms of Perisic's,

you know,

David platting the ball out of the net and running back to that, there was some excellent performative nonsense from Oleksander Sinchenko, who scored that terrific goal to put Arsenal 8-1 up on aggregate, but then did a non-celebration celebration very pointedly because him and some friends once went on the beer in Eindhoven for a weekend and apparently he played 10 minutes for them when he was a teenager.

12 appearances on loan in 2016-17.

As producer Joel says, you know, forget my former clubs in the moment of scoring a goal in the Champions League.

I just think it's a shame that, you know, journeymen like Wayne Biggins, it wasn't back then.

They couldn't celebrate at all because they they played for Steve Claridge, played for literally every team.

Couldn't celebrate ever, could he?

Let's go to Lille.

They lost two one at home to Dortmund.

So Dortmund go through to play Barca.

What did they make of this one, Mark?

I mean, the Lille goal at the start is very funny.

Kerbal,

it goes so slowly.

It was like me trying to bend down after keeping wicket

the day after that.

And it's all yeah, rolls for four.

Yeah, it was, you know, Jonathan David enhanced his reputation by getting another Champions League goal.

But if we're talking about assists, it definitely comes from the Dortmund goalkeeper, Cobel, who just let it go through his legs.

I felt the best team won over

on the night anyway.

I didn't watch much of the first leg, but Dortmund were the better team.

But I felt the penalty that got them back into the game just not.

It's just not a pet.

I don't think that's a penalty at all.

I just think it's a clear dive.

Emre Chan equalises, and then the game turns really on that moment before Max Payer wins it with a fantastic finish.

But over the course of the 90 minutes,

Dortmund played well and probably would have won by more goals if it wasn't for Chevalier's performance in that for Lil.

And I'm sure you enjoyed the goal mouse scramble, Max, in the first afternoon.

Absolutely amazing, wasn't it?

Went on forever.

I think there was about four blocks maybe on the line eventually, but yeah, it was real sort of Sunday league stuff we've spoken about chevalier in goal for ille already this season

he was terrific last night he made some astounding saves yeah so the quarter finals then arsenal rail madrid psg villa barsa dortman and interbayer nikki we didn't really talk a lot about inter yesterday do you think they are sort of underestimated by the others i think as barry mentioned they they don't concede goals I might say they're they're about right estimated because I do hear people talk about inter these days.

It's not like two years ago when they were headed to the final and I was trying to tell everyone, no, this team can really win it.

They're a funny team at the moment, Intel, because all the things that I would have said before are still true.

I think Simone Nzagi is absolutely one of the best managers in Europe.

I think that they

play with a tactical fluidity and cleverness that gives them a chance in any tie.

It feels like the team, the squad is just a little bit...

frayed, tired at the moment.

There were some players rested,

night before last.

And some players like Lautaro, who I think are just not quite going all guns when they are on the pitch at the moment.

And I think that in the Champions League can be a difference, right?

You need your best players to be at their best.

I always say this every single year.

I repeat this.

But I think that the Champions League is so much more about timing than people like to talk about.

You have to be in your best moment of form at the right time.

And Inter, I'm just not sure they are.

They're competitive.

They will be competitive with anyone.

But I'm not sold that they are in their absolute peak state at the moment, and I think

that might be costly for them.

I just wonder if the fact that there's a big title race in Italy going on at the moment and also in Spain, whether that will count against the teams that are left from those competitions looks like Bayern are going to wrap up, that the Bundesliga Arsenal can concentrate more on the Champions League as that comes around.

And yeah,

I would think that that is an advantage.

Dortmund themselves is kind of mid-table in the Bundesliga, so we'll be able to rest players before their quarter-final, whereas for somebody like Inter, you know, big game,

you know, it just feels like every week that there's a big game and then every mid-week there is as well.

It can be at the sort of, I think, a disadvantage really.

And PSG are also in a nice position where the league's virtually wrapped up, so it's sort of hard.

Just to add to that as well, Mark, like Inter have the oldest average starting 11 on all of seria and they also have the joint fewest number of players used so you've got an old squad with relatively few players being used i think that absolutely is a factor for them in this season i think fatigue is part of it and the competitors league said that about croatia didn't we um speaking of sides for whom they didn't win croatia that is true they didn't actually win though much no speaking of uh speaking of uh sides for whom the league doesn't matter barry absolutely season defining games tonight for those that listened before those games happen for Manchester United and Tottenham in the Europa League.

Yep, and Tottenham have a goal deficit to overturn.

If they play like they did in Alec Mara, they will lose.

They weren't particularly impressive at the weekend against

Bournemouth.

The Tots were very, very lucky to get Ain out of that game.

And you'd have to think it is probably Angel's job on the line.

If they go out tonight, he'll probably go out, well at the end of the season if not sooner um i be honest i'd quite like i like angie i'd like to see him stay in stay at spurs i i know there's plenty of spurs fans who don't share that sentiment but then i'm i have no skin in the spurs game this should have enough about them to beat alkner but we just don't know or a z sorry or a z

um but who knows yes well you do have skin in the game mark so how does that skin feel and the body within it the much more nutritious

body within it point barry made about um you know this potentially being his last game or the sort of the game that will um decide whether he stays he was that was basically asked him in the press conference yesterday and he didn't react very well um to the question but being put in front of him like the only good thing i can see at tottenham at the moment is the spence family jed's doing a you know playing brilliantly at fullback and his sister's vlogs um at the games are about the most entertaining thing at the moment.

I mean, she was at the game on Bournemouth wondering why Spurs were so crap and everybody else was asking the same question.

They still should be able to beat RZ, I would have thought.

It's only a one goal deficit,

but just

the whole thing just looks broken at the moment.

It needs a performance and

a victory to kind of get everybody back believing a game because it looks like the players have lost the faith almost as much as the fans have So it is

a really big game.

The draw is still wide open there.

Eintracht Frankfurt or Ajax are waiting in the quarterfinals.

A Frankfurt team that's lost Mamouche and not as good as it was in the first half of the campaign.

But

Tottenham need to up their games.

It's been nowhere near.

And actually, you know, Manchester United, for all the criticism they've got, their first leg performance against Real Societad in what was a more difficult game was fairly decent, at least for the first hour, hour, and probably deserved a draw.

I didn't expect them to get anything from that game.

So, you know, a good opportunity for them as well.

Yeah, massive game for them against Sociedad.

As you say, they're one apiece.

Rangers have a three-run lead from the first leg as they take on Jose's Fenerbache.

In the Europa Conference League, illness is sweeping through the Chelsea camp.

So, yeah, Rhys, James, Cole Palmer, and Kunku all missed training sessions.

Anyway, good luck to all those sides, especially Tottenham.

And that'll do for part two.

And we'll look ahead to the Carabao Cup final on the Premier League weekend in part three.

Hi, Pod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So Liverpool-Newcastle Carabao Cup final on Sunday.

Barry, what chance do you give Newcastle?

Clearly, the underdogs.

Both sides have injuries and Anthony Gordon's suspension.

But what are your thoughts?

My thoughts are: I think Liverpool will win.

I'm terrified Newcastle will win.

I really don't want them to.

Cards on the table.

It'd make me very sad.

But they have a better chance of beating Liverpool in this competition than any other team who was in the competition because they made it to the final.

And yeah, they've got a puncher's chance, definitely.

They will miss Anthony Gordon, who must be sick and so annoyed with himself for getting needlessly sent off and suspended for this game.

They will miss Lewis Hall, who's been excellent.

They'll miss Fenn Bottman.

Liverpool are without Trent Alexander Arnold.

He's their only sort of definite starter who isn't available.

I can't see past the Liverpool win, but I

certainly can, of course they have a chance, yeah, because they're in the final.

And we have seen, you know, Wigan beating Manchester City in the FA Cup final.

No one saw that coming, but it happened.

And Newcastle are a lot better than Wigan, that Wigan.

Yeah, true.

I think if you are Anthony Gordon, now that Alexander Arnold and Conor Bradley both look doubtful, it just makes that look that's sort of I know that you can't that doesn't define the tie, but you just think as you write, he'd be absolutely kicking themselves.

I suppose the interesting thing is Liverpool Nikki were will be tired after the PSG game, perhaps a little bit deflated.

And like they've won stuff.

And I wonder how much that just absolute desperation could go either way for Newcastle.

Yeah, I don't know.

I think if there's when you've got one team and Newcastle, while they are clearly a worse team than Liverpool, have also,

I mean, they knocked Arsenal out very confidently, didn't they?

We know they're a team that's capable of delivering a big performance in a big match.

Newcastle's entire season is this game, whereas for Liverpool, I think much more emotional energy was invested in that tie against PSG.

And perhaps in this slightly peculiar situation they're in now where the Premier League, of course, they can't think to themselves it's done, but it feels slightly done now for Liverpool to win the Premier League.

Does this final feel a bit like a come down?

Or does it feel like the opposite of that, where because they're now out of the Champions League, you get this almost desire to get that frustration out the system from losing to PSG and

come out all guns blazing?

I think some of the psychology of that is quite hard to predict.

The easy part to predict is, sorry, Newcastle fans, Liverpool are a better football team than Newcastle.

But as long as you've got Newcastle with Alexander Isaac, I'll give him a chance.

As somebody who supports a team that sort of has been on a long trophy drought, like Newcastle have, you go into these games almost expecting the worst, and like it just feels like Liverpool, and even when Manchester United are in finals, there's this muscle memory of kind of just knowing how to win.

And I sort of hate to say stuff like that because I'm not even sure I believed it

at first.

But the more it keeps happening, the more you just feel like there are some teams that are just born to win and others others that just aren't and like Liverpool against Newcastle does feel like one of those type of games yeah I give Newcastle sort of a reasonable enough chance because of the quality they've got in midfield and be able to compete with Liverpool or fought in that area and they've got a striker that can definitely win win matches on his own but Liverpool our favourites they're way clear in the Premier League and you know shown themselves to be the best team in the Premier League this season I think it'll be a closer and better game than the one at Anfield where

maybe Eddie Howe's team selection with Isak not risked suggested that he didn't really feel that it was

as important as what this game will be.

Yeah, I suppose it might be interesting Barry to see what impact a Newcastle win would have on the ownership given that I think a lot of Newcastle fans have

have started to worry that they're not sort of in this as much as they thought they would be at the start.

Obviously, they're restricted by PSR, but maybe that one glinting, shiny thing might pave the way for them to sort of turn their attention back from taking over boxing and golf and trying to do peace talks with Ukraine.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I just wonder if it will have any impact or not.

Even if it does, they're still hamstrung by PSR, aren't they?

So there's only so much the owners can do.

Lovely people that they are.

Yeah, let's look at the games in the Premier League.

Arsenal Chelsea, I don't know how you're feeling about the Premier League now, Nikki.

Is it just sort of consolidate second?

Yeah, it's it's an odd one, isn't it?

Because of course Arteta's refused to give up on the league title, but I think as a fan it looks pretty hopeless.

Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but maybe that's just because every time I come on this show, it's normally after Arsenal have lost.

Didn't uh didn't even manage to get me on a win here, did you, after a 7-1 win in the first leg?

Still.

Yes, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

Philippe is reserved for the amazing performances.

Yeah, our apologies.

No,

to me as a fan, it feels like the league is gone, but it doesn't mean that there isn't still a need to pick up some points.

Definitely would be disappointing now not to finish second after the season that's been.

And I think it's not still impossible if you drop enough points that you drop out of the top four.

So you've still got to finish the season properly.

And Chelsea's always an awkward, tough game.

They're missing forwards as well, of course.

Not just us in this one.

Nicholas Jackson's out, Madweke is out.

I don't want to be too pessimistic, but I'm absolutely convinced that Cole Palmer, after his long drought, is going to score.

That's just a certainty in my mind that Cole Palmer will score.

But yeah, I think I always expect a tough game against Chelsea, and I'm sure it will be.

Can I just sort of posit the...

I know we're supposed to big this up and be excited about it, and this will inevitably prompt the usual stupid

accusations that I don't even like football.

I'm just looking at that list of Premier League fixtures there, and it's just, peh, shoulder shrug.

You know, we're trying to be excited about who finishes fifth.

That's all we have left really.

And interestingly, probably the most interesting game is Southampton Wolves because if Southampton can somehow beat them, then maybe that opens up the relegation battle again.

I don't disagree.

Otherwise,

we've got nothing.

Yeah.

No, you can't lie about it.

I think the race of fifth is interesting, Mark, given that there are sides who never get there that could get there.

But you're right.

There's no title title race.

Relegation is done.

Like, what do we do?

Just stop doing podcasts?

Like, we've got to try and just start the entertaining barrier.

We've got to do something.

I'm sure it's exciting for Brighton, who, you know, if they do win at the Etihad, that they'll go above Manchester City and City will drop out of the top five.

I think that would be an interesting kind of storyline to follow for the rest of the season in terms of whether

two of these really big clubs in Chelsea and Man City can hold on to Champions League berths as kind of, as you said, their max teams like Brighton and maybe Bournemouth can sneak in.

I mean, Bournemouth versus Brentford is a game, it's the sort of live game in the UK.

It doesn't jump out on Saturday as a must-watch, but Bournemouth are as interesting, I think, as any other team in the league.

What Ireola is doing there is quite remarkable.

I think playing a different brand of football to just about anybody else.

They're not a team that you would associate with having hit the second most long balls in the Premier League this season.

I mean, so Everton are first, and they were that type of side under Sean Dais, but like Bournemouth are second, and I think that Iriola just realised that there's no point playing out.

If teams are pressing you, as everybody seems to do now,

why would you sort of try and risk it by playing a short goal kick?

Just smash it over them.

Can you get him to tell?

Can you tell him to tell Andrew that?

Well, you see, I think the two teams that have played the fewest long balls in the Premier League this season are two that have maybe been the ones that are below preseason expectations most, which is Man City and the Spurs.

And after City were beaten by Bournemouth, Guardiola said that Bournemouth is the way they play is the future of football.

And I do wonder whether the fact that City are now picking

Savinho and Doku as wingers, like really direct wingers that are maybe not looking after the ball maybe as much as some of the other wide players that he's had previously, whether Guardiola is starting to think that

he might need to do something different next season.

So, there's a reason to watch Bournemouth against Brentford because you might be watching the future of football.

The future of football sounds very much like the past of football for anyone who watched Cambridge United in the 90s, but you know, I'm here for it.

A few championship games last night.

Leeds beat Millwall to go top.

Plymouth got a vital 2-1 away win at Portsmouth.

They're still bottom, but just three points behind Cardiff in 21st.

That bottom of the championship is that's where we should be doing our our pods from now, Barry.

Up to four Bristol City fans have been in touch when we announced that they lost to Sheffield United yesterday.

A statement of apology from producer Joel, who says, Bristol City scored a last-minute equalizer against Sheffield United that I missed yesterday and I have been sacked.

I had a good run.

A statement from host Max Rushton.

Having watched Chris Wilder's post-match interview before the pod talking about not winning, I was surprised to read out that they had won, but I just read what's in front of me.

I was going, that's weird.

I'm certain.

I saw like Chris Chris Wilder saying things about not winning.

Anyway, we have an EFL pod on Tuesday.

We cannot guarantee accuracy, but we will try our very, very best.

And that'll do for today.

Thanks, everybody.

Thank you, Nikki.

Just going to chime in on my thank you and say if you're bored of watching Premier League football at Atlanta Intear on Sunday night, it should be a cracker third against first.

And we've also got Blanjalazio.

So not every league is going to a boring end, Max.

Lots going on in Syria.

Noted.

Thank you very much, Mark.

Thanks, Max.

That is, Baz.

Thank you.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove, and our executive producer is Bill Maynard.

We'll be back on Monday.

This is The Guardian.