The tale of David Coote and a Nations League preview – Football Weekly Extra podcast

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Speaker 5 Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Guardian Football Weekly. The sad tale of David Coote and the knowledge that we're all just one social media clip away from losing everything.

Speaker 5 What, if anything, does this say about referees, about the PGMOL, about managers' behavior towards officials, and about the internet's thirst to ruin an individual?

Speaker 5 And then we get ready to say goodbye to Gary Lineker from Match of the Day. Was that Carlos Belaber pun on Saturday the final straw? Where does he rank on the Lynem scale and who's next?

Speaker 5 All of that means we can rattle through the international preview. At the time of recording, 756 players have dropped out from the England squad.

Speaker 5 You wonder if that would be the case if Tuchel had started earlier, plus the home nations and Killian and Bappe dropped, kind of, not really.

Speaker 5 Elsewhere, the YouTuber who played Argentinian First Division. Your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 5 On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, welcome.

Speaker 1 Hi, Max.

Speaker 5 Hello, Paul McInnes.

Speaker 4 Hi, Max.

Speaker 5 And welcome, Lars Sivadson.

Speaker 1 Hello, Max.

Speaker 5 Jim says the Lineke and Coote stories have been timed well to pad out the pods during the international break, break, haven't they?

Speaker 5 Yeah, absolutely. So, David Coote, Premier League referee, has been suspended after video footage emerged of him calling Jürgen Klopp a German C-word and Liverpool shit.

Speaker 5 Howard Webb, the PGMOL's chief refereeing officer, said the organisation was taking the incident very seriously. The FA has launched its own investigation.

Speaker 5 In the clip that surfaced, Coot claimed that Klopp was arrogant and accused him of lying after a one-all draw between Liverpool and Burnley during 2020.

Speaker 5 It appears to have been recorded during the 2020-21 season.

Speaker 5 I'll throw it over to the panel before I get quite a split opinion from the listeners. Paul, you wrote about this.

Speaker 5 Your thoughts two days on?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I still have minimal sympathy for the guy, to be honest.

Speaker 4 I don't know.

Speaker 4 It's just,

Speaker 4 I wrote about it, and at the time, I was just incredibly astonished that somebody who is approaching middle age would go around some lad's house, have a bit of banter with them about their work with a camera on.

Speaker 4 I just thought, how does anybody in the modern world think that's going to end well? And so, you know, the fact that he may, you know, what did he say? I mean, it was offensive. It was unpleasant.

Speaker 4 I think that is just stuff that means you're kind of going to lose your job anyway. But it just kind of in the modern world where you are going out there saying things about

Speaker 4 Bobs and sort of feeding into this idea that, you know, everybody's a bit of a shit shit and they're all kind of doing things a bit wrong i i just don't think it's helpful and and i just don't understand why he said it uh barry i suppose there is a

Speaker 1 uh an irony to the fact that somebody whose job is basically to assess situations and make quick judgments on the fly assessed this situation

Speaker 1 and made the judgment he did because it was a very poor one. I do have sympathy for him and I hope he's he's okay because I think this could have a devastating effect on David Coote's life.

Speaker 1 People can be very unkind.

Speaker 1 Being a referee is horrible. I couldn't, can't think of many jobs I'd rather do less.
But one suspects for him not being a referee would be even more horrible. And I think

Speaker 1 he's finished as a ref at the highest level in England, at least. I would say I don't, I can't see him coming back from this.

Speaker 5 Yeah, Barney wrote a piece about it as well, saying on the difficulty of refereeing refereeing is basically a nightmare now a job that requires you to be simultaneously a regulation hyper nerd super cool air traffic controller long distance runner font of matey common sense and also immune to mass abuse and threats of violence david coot washed up on a sofa bleeding self-pity high on the validation of a crowing circle of hostile acolytes is this a surprising outcome um it's interesting lars because you know i'd say half the response was about

Speaker 5 you know this being a sign that that referees are on unfit peace eagle said can you please be a voice for fans about these clearly unfit referees we all need to work together to make a holistic change in approach and personnel jack x said a serious question why are the pgm oil immune to criticism on the pod you're happy rightly so to bash uefa the betting industry fifa and so on referees and their bosses get the benefit of the doubt every time hopefully the coop video is an eye-opener whereas others say Peter says, says David Koop done us all a service by pointing out the unacceptable bullying behavior of too many managers, players and assistants.

Speaker 5 And Ricky says people ask the referees to be more human. Referees are more human with human emotions and everyone loses their minds.

Speaker 5 Perhaps the owners should be on the manager not abusing the referee and learning from that.

Speaker 5 Lars?

Speaker 1 It's a funny one with referees because quite a few managers, including Joe and Klopp, have an extensive record of behaving in a fairly abusive manner towards them.

Speaker 1 You can't be too surprised when some of them don't like those managers.

Speaker 1 Like if you if in your place of work there was like a large angry German constantly calling you incompetent and like, you know, you probably wouldn't like that person very much I think you'd have to be a very strange person to just go ah yes please abuse me some more like the I mean I think we have to expect that quite a lot of referees will have some pretty negative thoughts about some of the managers just based on how they're treated but

Speaker 1 Barry's already said it.

Speaker 1 It's mind-boggling that someone doesn't fully accept and understand in the year of our Lord 2024 or whenever this was recorded that anything you say in front of a camera, in front of a microphone, you have to assume it'll be made public.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 I don't buy this idea that this is sort of an eye-opening thing. Like, I'm sorry, if this was super eye-opening to you, like, I have some bad news.

Speaker 1 I think most referees probably dislike quite a few managers and would use similar words to describe it because of the way they're treated. I mean, you're allowed to not like Jürgen Klopp,

Speaker 1 but still be able to

Speaker 1 referee...

Speaker 1 a match in which a Jürgen Klopp team is involved to the best of your abilities. Now, look, what Koot did is indescribably stupid, and he's almost certainly going to pay a very heavy price.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 this does not prove the referees are corrupt. It doesn't prove there's a conspiracy.
But what it does do, unfortunately, is add fuel to the fire for those

Speaker 1 weirdos who are convinced there is a conspiracy. And I don't think it's fair to say that we're not critical of the PGMOL.
I think we're often critical of referees, but

Speaker 1 I just appreciate how difficult a job

Speaker 1 they have. I can totally get why Coot was pissed off with Klopp on the night in question.
It was the night he got, shipped a load of abuse from him while doing his job.

Speaker 1 Andy Robertson as well gave him both barrels at the end of that game.

Speaker 1 with language that would not be acceptable in any other workplace, but is acceptable in football and apparently in restaurant restaurant kitchens.

Speaker 1 Chefs and football players and managers seem to have a, you know, be able to abuse people with impunity. Anyone else would get sacked, but they're fine.

Speaker 4 Slightly dreary chat, but I think we are asking for a high standard of behavior from referees. And I think that's right.

Speaker 4 And I think there isn't an aspect of this that's not just what he said.

Speaker 4 It's the fact that he said it at all on camera, but also seemed to be enjoying it and performing a little bit. And I think that's kind of that that's problematic.

Speaker 4 But I think, you know, I think we are right to ask and demand the high standards of behavior from referees.

Speaker 4 But at that point, there then becomes a knock-on, which is referred, which does refers to all the fans and particularly the conspiratorial people, which is like, you've got to perform to a higher standard as well, because you've got to understand.

Speaker 4 what you're saying online does get through to participants in the game. And, you know, the majority of the time when people are saying these things, they've only got suspicions.

Speaker 4 They don't have evidence, but they treat it as fact. And that's going to hurt people and that sours the game.

Speaker 4 So everybody has an input to make pundits as well, players, managers, players, managers need to control their behavior.

Speaker 4 That's a topic of conversation that is within the game all the time and organizations, bodies are trying to get measures in to start managers and players behaving differently, but they don't, but everybody's got to start doing it.

Speaker 4 But I think you've got to draw the line here.

Speaker 1 And I think referees, unfortunately, are in the position where they're expected to be you know a symbol of probity in the game and that's unfortunate but i think that's what they sign up for i i just think the whole the whole incident is just really ugly kind of on every level i think obviously the things he's saying in in its content is is pretty ugly even if it is understandable that someone who cops a lot of abuse from managers doesn't like one of those managers But I also just kind of think on a human level, the sort of combination of glee and sanctimony I've sort of seen on social media is kind of ugly as well.

Speaker 1 Because I do think pretty much every person holds certain views that if they were made public whether it's to do with their job or people in their social life they they would be in trouble right and i think everyone said something doubly so when inebriated in some manner that if it was filmed and made public we'd have a problem in our lives this is a super like

Speaker 1 this applies to almost every person

Speaker 4 and and so and i think it goes for the people who are being very sanctimonious about it on the internet as well so the whole thing just gives me a foul taste every single aspect of the story makes me upset and sad is kind of my feeling on it i was semi-comatose in a nightclub in like 2013 and i sort of like managed to sort of surface a little bit into kind of vaguely comprehending what was going around in my surroundings and i had two guys one either side arms wrapped around me and three of their mates taking photos of this collapsed guy in the in the club so i know that that evidence is out there someday and it could come back to haunt me.

Speaker 4 So I just want to put that testimony out there to substantiate what Lars was just saying.

Speaker 1 Did you say anything spectacularly mean about anyone on the pod? That's the real question.

Speaker 1 Could happen.

Speaker 5 Well, I mean, that's the thing. Like, I don't know if every

Speaker 5 like, I all think we're pretty nice, but if

Speaker 5 before we started recording, you know, we might say rude things about people.

Speaker 5 I know referees, what Paul said, I don't disagree with that about a higher sense of probity.

Speaker 5 But I think everybody listening has said something bad about somebody. I just feel desperately sorry for him.
I it doesn't mean I think he should be able to referee again, but it just feels like

Speaker 5 like we don't know, but he didn't look like he was totally all there and he said some bad stuff and we all say bad stuff and like surely a year and you could just be forgiven.

Speaker 5 Like it's not the biggest crime in the world, but maybe maybe maybe like e every time he went out to referee again, it would obviously be a nightmare. But I just think

Speaker 5 I just feel so desperately sorry for this guy.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I do too. But

Speaker 1 can you imagine what his colleagues who are already under the microscope, they must have woken up to this news and just gone, oh, Kooti or whatever he is they call him

Speaker 1 in their meaty way. And because he hasn't done them any favours, you know.

Speaker 1 Not at all.

Speaker 1 But yeah,

Speaker 1 I think it's okay to think he's been a massive gobshype, but, and also feel really sorry for him.

Speaker 5 Totally.

Speaker 5 On to Gary Lineke, Pete says, will the BBC look for a homegrown replacement for Gary Lineke or is there a young up-and-coming presenter doing some interesting and innovative work in the second Bundesliga that they'll look to get in?

Speaker 5 Yeah, the BBC has confirmed Gary Lineker stepping down from hosting Match of the Day at the end of this season. Apparently, the BBC didn't renew his contract, took over from Des Leinem in 1999.

Speaker 5 His 25 years make him the longest-serving presenter. He'll host the World Cup in 2026 and the FA Cup next season.
Strange, isn't it, Barry, that he hasn't had his contract renewed? Or isn't it?

Speaker 5 I don't know. Like, he's very good at that job.

Speaker 1 I think he is very good at that job, but he draws down a massive salary, 1.35 million, apparently. I believe he offered to take a 350 grand pay cut, but the new head of sport in the BBC

Speaker 1 wanted to shake things up a bit. I think maybe leave his mark.
Lineker also has caused well-documented problems by

Speaker 1 talking about politics on social media in a manner which I think is fine.

Speaker 1 I have no problem with it at all, but apparently flies in the face of BBC impartiality rules, which seem a bit draconian to me, but they are in place.

Speaker 1 I think his argument is that he's a hired gun, he's not a BBC staffer,

Speaker 1 so he can say what he wants.

Speaker 1 But yeah, he is good at it, and I like him, but I don't really care who presents match of the day unless it's someone really, really

Speaker 1 bad.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Any strong thoughts, Paul?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 4 my strong preference is for a presenter who is urbane. And I kind of, you know, I think, I think Lineker had.

Speaker 5 Yeah, but I live in Australia.

Speaker 1 That's the issue.

Speaker 4 Yeah, but I think everybody can adjust adjust their production schedules around to suit your timings. I would have hoped.

Speaker 5 I should hope so.

Speaker 4 But yeah, so and I think Lineke had that quality. I preferred Des Lynem.
I know it was a long time ago, so I'm barely remembering.

Speaker 4 But the thing I kind of think about Des Lynem is that he was one step removed from the game, whereas obviously Lineke is absolutely in the middle of it.

Speaker 4 I think that for me has slightly been the limitation of he's a bit soft and gentle when it comes to talking about players in the game because you know often he's talking to ex-players and he is an ex-player and he knows what the ex-players.

Speaker 4 I'd like to have a journalist back in there, and I was trying to think of who that could be.

Speaker 4 I mean, you could have Joe Rogan, I mean, you could have Ramesh Rankh Rankin Nathan might have a spare half hour. You know, I like Kate Scott, I've worked with Gabby Logan, she's brilliant.

Speaker 4 And then, you know, I think when people talk about Mark Chapman, I think that's a, you know, he can do this for days. And I think he does have that sort of distance.

Speaker 4 But somebody put it out on socials yesterday, and I just thought, yeah, I get this. Bring back Adrian Childs.

Speaker 4 You know, after his sort of reinvention as this man of the people, the man with the urinal in his home, to get him back out there

Speaker 4 talking about the national game and leading the director, I think that would be, I think that would be absolutely a point in TV.

Speaker 4 But just to go back to what Barry was saying, I've heard this too, that the BBC, Alex Kajelski, is very much making his mark, changing things around a lot in terms of what sports journalists are focusing on, what they're doing, but also kind of changing the figures at the top.

Speaker 4 I've heard they're looking for a new sort of big writer, but a new big presenter would probably, you know, sort of symbolize a new era too.

Speaker 5 I mean, I could kill two birds with one stone, Alex, if you're listening.

Speaker 5 Someone did send me

Speaker 5 the odds, Lars, that said I was 12 to 1. And I got very excited until I looked at the rest of the people on the list, including like Robbie Savage and Danny Murphy.

Speaker 5 I was like, I'm not sure about this. And then it turned out it was from 2015.

Speaker 5 I don't know why the Match of the Day gig was up for grads in 2015. It wasn't, but you know, I agree if Chappas is the favorite and he is an excellent broadcaster, but I like Adrian Charles as well.

Speaker 5 I think Kelly Cates is certainly worth a shout. She's brilliant.
I don't know what you think, Lars.

Speaker 1 I feel like I don't have really strong takes on it, except to completely yes and Paul here.

Speaker 1 I really would much prefer to see

Speaker 1 a journalist type rather than an X-player, just because it can be...

Speaker 1 There is an advantage to having people in the media pontificating on this stuff who obviously are in touch with the game, are in touch with players, or are more on the inside than on the outside.

Speaker 1 But that can also neuter some of the analysis. And you'll get a lot of, oh, he'll be disappointed with that type of stuff.
And

Speaker 1 you look at the odds as you mentioned it. There are a few sort of

Speaker 1 players who turn up because obviously Gary Lineker famously was also a footballer at some point before he became a very, very excellent broadcaster.

Speaker 1 So we do have a very good example of that model working.

Speaker 5 But I think there is real value to having someone who's a little bit outside of that uh to actually at least do the presenting yeah i suppose this doesn't mean a whole lot to half our audience who aren't in the uk and um uh worth mentioning that uh i think a lot of young people probably vaguely knew that lineke was a player a bit like when i watched jimmy hill there's no way he was a footballer when i watched jimmy hill on that to the day you know just it's just a random old man wasn't it but i suspect lineker's slightly better known than i think random old man is is not necessarily how most people would describe Lineke.

Speaker 5 One other story that is worth mentioning that it's pretty hard to discuss.

Speaker 5 We can't really say a lot about it, but the BBC are reporting that a Premier League footballer has been further questioned by police and remains under investigation for allegedly raping three women and sexually assaulting a fourth.

Speaker 5 This comes a year on from a BBC News investigation, which spoke to five women who accused the Premier League player of rape, sexual assault, or controlling behaviour.

Speaker 5 Despite four women reporting man here, the BBC are calling player X to the police for alleged sexual offences from 21 to 23. He continued to play for the club.

Speaker 5 One woman told the BBC the lack of action from the club and governing body at the FA contributed to her attempting to take her own life.

Speaker 5 I didn't want to exist in a world where I'm constantly reminded that rape allegations can be ignored as long as you're talented enough, she explained.

Speaker 5 Another woman said they believe if Player X had been suspended after the first allegation, she would not have gone on to be sexually assaulted.

Speaker 5 The BBC has confirmed a footballer attended a police station on the 7th of November, was interviewed under caution.

Speaker 5 This was the first time he was questioned about an allegation of rape reported last year by a fourth woman. The player has denied wrongdoing.
That'll do for part one.

Speaker 5 Part two, we'll look ahead to the Nations League.

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Speaker 5 Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. Paul writes, does the team feel under pressure? Doing the pod while the FSA awards voting is open?

Speaker 5 Wouldn't want a bad pod performance to sway people to vote for one of your competitors.

Speaker 5 Yeah, go to one of our X feeds or Blue Sky feeds now. Barry and I have joined that.

Speaker 5 Another so it seems very similar to X. So it seems like I know how to navigate my way around it.

Speaker 5 You're welcome to find us on that and vote for us in the Football Supporters Association awards. Are you enjoying your new social? You only just started Instagram.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 I'm still figuring out Instagram.

Speaker 1 it's it's it's like loads of people just being very careful in a brand new house and being very polite and nice and i'm sure it won't last everyone's taking their shoes off when they're before they log in are they yeah everyone's taking their shoes off at the door and making sure not to bump into any furniture or knock anything over and yeah give it a month or two and

Speaker 1 it too will descend into acrimony and rancor.

Speaker 1 I'd say, Barry, if you take the same approach that you've taken to Instagram, which is basically post videos of you playing with a dog, I think you'll do very well on Bullish Games.

Speaker 1 I think this is the content people want from you, Baz. It's it's delightful.
I don't even have a dog.

Speaker 1 You should stress, though, that the dog you're playing with is like you're meant to look you like, you have it's not just a random dog that you've stolen.

Speaker 5 You haven't nicked the dog. No.
Let's start with England then. They played Greece on Thursday, Rubber Carl on Sunday.
Sam says, How many withdrawals did you have from the International Break Pod?

Speaker 5 Award, O'Claire, and Anuha saving themselves for the packed Christmas schedule. Eight players have withdrawn from the squad.
Five new ones have come in for Lee Carsley's final game as interim boss.

Speaker 5 Paul, if Thomas Tuchel was the manager, do you think there would be the same number of dropouts?

Speaker 4 No, no, I don't think that because I think everybody would be putting their hand up to try and register a positive impression with the new boss, even though my assumption would be that the new boss will be watching these games on television.

Speaker 4 And so we'll see what people are doing or or not. But to a certain extent, anyway, but I do think with these,

Speaker 4 I know about the football calendar. I write about it, I hear people banging on about it, I understand what's going on here.

Speaker 4 And my general feeling is that, you know, international matches are not the cause of burnout, they're not the problem, they've been there for a long time, it's the same amount of games, they've been repackaged in order to try and create more space.

Speaker 4 But still, at this point in time, particularly being a fan of Club in the Championship where games come really thick and fast, you do kind of feel like these extra games at this moment in time for players are not needed.

Speaker 4 And I, you know, I feel bad about that because I value the international game. I love the Euros.
But at the same time, that's how I feel when I see these games coming up.

Speaker 4 So it doesn't surprise me that there are kind of tactical withdrawals. And I wouldn't be surprised if managers.

Speaker 4 uh uh take that on board on the chin and just say okay well that's yeah that we're going to have to deal with that if we are going to ultimately build a relationship, which means that we get the players we want when we need them.

Speaker 4 I think, you know, in the olden days and the Fergie days, players could drop out with minor injuries at any point. You just didn't know.

Speaker 4 So it's important for international managers to have good relationship with the players, but I think sometimes that's going to have to involve them accepting that they're going to drop out for less important games.

Speaker 5 England, Lazar, second on nine points because they lost at home to Greece. Greece have 12 points.
So can you remind me, if you know, the implications of England not winning the group?

Speaker 5 Does it have it does have an impact on something, seeding somewhere? Or you know, you've got it, Barry, have you?

Speaker 1 Well, I'm happy to defer it to Laris, but I do know the scenario. Well, there we are.

Speaker 5 Over to you, Barry.

Speaker 1 Well, England have to win to keep their hopes of automatic promotion to the top tier of the Nations League alive.

Speaker 1 They're all but guaranteed a playoff place to get into the top tier of the Nations League.

Speaker 1 This is with two matches remaining. But there's a

Speaker 1 teeny, tiny chance they could get dragged into a relegation playoff, I think.

Speaker 1 But that's negligible. So, yeah, they basically need to win their last two games and hope Greece slip up.
Well, Greece will obviously slip up if they win this game. But yeah.

Speaker 5 But apart from promotion, does it impact on your seeding for the World Cup qualifying or Euro qualifying or something? Does anyone know? I read that somewhere.

Speaker 1 Well, all the results affect your FIFA rankings, which will determine some of the seedings, I believe. But there's also something to do with if you're in the top,

Speaker 1 if you're in the top something, you go into the first seed. But I think for England, that will not be relevant since you are not in the top anything in the Nations League.

Speaker 1 So it doesn't really affect you in that way, I don't think.

Speaker 5 I saw a headline in The Guardian poll saying Lewis Hall's audition adds intrigue to England's Nations League benale.

Speaker 5 I thought intrigue was pushing it. know, I know we're trying to flog some papers, but does that does that intrigue you?

Speaker 4 I read that article and it was written by Jacob Steinberg and it was very well done.

Speaker 4 And I think he made a good case, but you could, you could feel, as a fellow pro, you could feel this is a guy, you know,

Speaker 4 he's aware that he has to kind of create a sense of significance here.

Speaker 1 Well, he can write the headline as well.

Speaker 5 I'm not blaming the writer.

Speaker 1 No, no, I'm blaming. I'm blaming him.
I'll blame him.

Speaker 4 No, I thought it was a good piece. And yeah, I mean,

Speaker 4 the opportunity to see, you know, younger players in these in these matches is a bonus or benefit of these games. You know, I'd like to, hopefully Jared Branthrope will get some minutes as well.

Speaker 4 And Morgan Rogers, who's had a very good season to this point. And, you know, and Jacob makes the point that here in Lewis Hall, you know, he's 20, so, you know, he's still relatively untested.

Speaker 4 He's only really recently come into the Newcastle side. But there is a problem with left back,

Speaker 4 with

Speaker 4 a lack of somebody with a left foot. And this is an opportunity to maybe kind of,

Speaker 4 you know, not only see what he's like, but maybe start to

Speaker 4 bed him in if he does well.

Speaker 4 So, you know, hopefully that's something that

Speaker 4 can develop.

Speaker 4 I think for England, my feeling is generally that actually

Speaker 4 they've got enough talent in the squad.

Speaker 4 The pool of talent is there that it's not so much about kind of have we got the right pegs for the right holes, but getting the system that works to make make them function efficiently.

Speaker 1 See, I would say that there is actually a little bit of intrigue because there are two positions, and

Speaker 1 I'm still a little bit scarred by the England discourse from the Euros, but it still hasn't left my system just yet. But

Speaker 1 there are two positions that obviously were a huge problem for England and have been a problem for a little while, which is left back, as Paul says.

Speaker 1 But it's also this idea of finding a midfielder who can pass the ball a bit.

Speaker 1 Because you have a lot of midfielders who run around with great enthusiasm, but maybe not the sort of controlling, passing, big brain midfielder. And you have

Speaker 1 now, you have, of course, Louis Hall, who is an interesting candidate for left-back role, but you also have an uncapped player in the squad, a player who's never played for England, as far as I know, who is a midfielder who can pass the ball quite a bit, I think, and that is Curtis Jones.

Speaker 1 I'd be quite interested in seeing Curtis Jones get minutes for England based on what we've seen him do for Liverpool this season.

Speaker 1 He's not quite maybe someone who's a little bit more forward-thinking than, I mean, we were all kind of hoping Adam Wharton could become the sort of the, we're we're basically looking for the english chavi aren't we in some kind of capacity and um maybe that's not curtis jones's game but he is a very clever he's a very clever footballer so it'd be interesting to see him get some playing time what do you think of an angel angel angel gomez last you look do you ray again also yeah he he's also uh an interesting one i i don't i'm not fully certain i see him as as that exact player but he's also a technical player who can pass the ball a little bit so again interesting to see

Speaker 1 you know you can see with all the sort of withdrawals, you would say, oh, that's a bit sad because the best guys aren't there.

Speaker 1 It also means you'll get to see some pretty interesting guys play for in games that would otherwise not be that interesting. Greece

Speaker 1 are unlikely to be a pushover. They're managed by Ivan Jovanovich.
He's won four out of four since taking charge. They've scored nine, conceded one,

Speaker 1 and they've won eight and drawn two of the 11 Nations League games they've played at home. So it could be a decent game, actually.

Speaker 5 My biggest intrigue will be if Branthwaite and Bowen are on the pitch at the same time and surely the first time ever that two Jarrods have been playing for England at the same time.

Speaker 5 But, you know, do correct me.

Speaker 1 It's also a Jarrod and a Jarrod, crucially. It's not, they're actually not that bad.
I mean, they're close enough that I guess the point stands.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I've let myself down, but only a tiny bit.

Speaker 5 Are we playing the Republic on Sunday night? England, play the Republic on Sunday night. You've got to play Finland before that, Baz.
What are your hopes and dreams?

Speaker 1 Well, my hopes and dreams is that we'll beat Finland

Speaker 1 and beat England. I suspect we might beat Finland and I think we could get hockey by England, but we'll have to wait and see about that.

Speaker 1 I think people are struggling to put a bit of a narrative on this game as well or to drum up a huge amount of interest in Ireland, Finland at least.

Speaker 1 You know, big news, Shane Duffy has got a recall because he's playing well for Norwich.

Speaker 1 Festio Baseley can play left back and right back. That was an article.
That was the

Speaker 1 article I read in

Speaker 1 the Irish media yesterday. We're third behind Greece and England, and hopefully we won't get relegated from

Speaker 1 the League B, but we'll probably have to have a playoff to stay up.

Speaker 5 It's Titan Wales' group. They're second, two points behind behind Turkey.
Iceland, four points behind them. On four,

Speaker 5 Wales and Turkey face each other in Turkey on Saturday night. They drew nil-nil in Cardiff in September.
Kiefer Moore is unavailable, which adds intrigue to who will play down the middle. Yes, Paul.

Speaker 4 Some intriguing remarks from Craig Bellamy, I found ahead of this match. Did you see him talking about he is doing a decent job as Wales manager so far on beating him four?

Speaker 4 He's given a good account of himself between all matches. But he was asked about kind of the importance of this role and he said, well, you know, as a player, he's spent a lot of time away from Wales.

Speaker 4 And that he'd, you know, been based elsewhere and coming back has been great for him because it's taken him back to his childhood when he was a young child and free.

Speaker 4 And he said, we'd all love to be that seven, eight-year-old child again. And this for him is going back and sort of going back into his past and reawakening these experiences.

Speaker 4 I'm not entirely sure I would like to be that seven or eight year old child again.

Speaker 5 Oh, wouldn't you? I mean, depends on your childhood, Paul, I guess.

Speaker 4 Yeah, at seven, I was getting bullied in parks on my BMX. I remember one time I had a peach stone.

Speaker 4 I had eaten a peach and I had a peach stone in my mouth and a gang of kids came up to me and told me I had gut rot and that I'd better get out of the I better get out of the park before there was trouble.

Speaker 4 So seven, eight, and it's not what I'd want to be. 25, yes, but but I guess when he was 25, he was swinging golf clubs at teammates.
So maybe he doesn't.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, yeah, I'd go back to.

Speaker 5 Well, it's difficult, isn't it? I don't want to do any exams again, but I'd happily be 10 again.

Speaker 1 You could just be 10 and drop out of school, is what you're saying. I suspect the seven or eight-year-old Craig Bellamy would have been the guy bullying Paul

Speaker 1 for eating a peach.

Speaker 5 There's every chance. But look,

Speaker 1 we've all grown up, haven't we? There we are. But it's worth just rowing us back to shore again.
Like, it's this should be fun. Like, Turkey whales have been really fun after Bellamy took over.

Speaker 1 They're playing, like, really attacking. They're creating.
You said it was the first game ended at 0-0, but I watched bits of that. And

Speaker 1 Wales played Turkey off the park. And I think he's actually the rare case of a manager who's come into an international team and done really interesting stuff.
And they're not.

Speaker 1 I'm not going so far as to say as they are appointment viewing for neutrals, but they're not milk. I mean, if you're looking for games, like if you're not the international week, you're kind of bored.

Speaker 1 You're not sure you'll be watching any football for the next seven days.

Speaker 1 Turkey Wales, I think, is probably worth spending some time on.

Speaker 5 Yeah, no, I'm a big fan of everything Craig Benham has done so far as a Wales manager.

Speaker 5 Barry, find me the intrigue in Scotland if you can.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 they also have quite a few absentees. Angus Gunn is out,

Speaker 1 their goalkeeper. I don't think too many Scotland fans would be overly concerned about that because a lot of them don't think he's good enough to play for them.

Speaker 1 Greg Taylor's out, Lawrence Shanklin, John McGinn, Kieran Tierney, Aaron Hickey, Nathan Patterson all out. Croatia won the reverse fixture against Scotland 2-1.

Speaker 1 Scotland drew nil all with Portugal last time out at Hamden. They've only won one of their last 16 games, which was a friendly against Gibraltar

Speaker 1 that victory.

Speaker 1 Steve Clark really needs to stop the rot and get a win on the board. But obviously, Croatia are no easy proposition.

Speaker 1 They're trying to blood some younger players, but we're still likely to have Andrei Krameric on the pitch at some stage, 98 caps.

Speaker 1 If you hadn't said caps, I was like 98, even that's on in my mind for a Croatian.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Luka Modric is on

Speaker 1 180.

Speaker 1 Kerasic still knocking around 136 caps, not age. And Matio Kovic is also, I think, on more than a century.
So, I mean, the experience in that

Speaker 1 team, but surely, Max, they've got to be tired.

Speaker 5 It's like the expendables.

Speaker 5 Eventually, they'll have had so much work done. You'll be looking at them going, oh no, Modric has had another facelift.

Speaker 5 Northern Ireland are top of their group in League C.

Speaker 5 It's wide open, isn't it? They've got seven, Belarus, six, Bulgaria, five.

Speaker 5 They play Belarus at Windsor Park on Friday.

Speaker 5 and then uh,

Speaker 1 that game nearly wasn't at Windsor Park actually, because um, the Belarus players or the Belarus traveling party had uh trouble getting visas, and there was a suggestion it might have to be played somewhere else.

Speaker 1 Uh, but it's all been sorted, so it will be at Windsor Park.

Speaker 5 And that'll do for part two, part three. We'll look ahead to some other internationals.

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Speaker 5 Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. So the France-Israel game that we spoke about a bit last week is going ahead tomorrow.

Speaker 5 There are reported to be 4,000 police allocated to the match by Parisian.

Speaker 5 That follows, obviously, the trouble in Amsterdam, which we also talked about.

Speaker 5 On Monday, President Macron's announced he's going to the game, but he won't be seeing Killian and Bappe.

Speaker 5 Lars, Diode Champ hasn't picked his captain for these fixtures, saying, I've had discussions with him. It's a one-off decision that I took for this block of matches only.
Killian wanted to come.

Speaker 5 So if he wanted to come, why isn't he coming? I mean, he's not playing great, but he should probably still just about scrape into the France squad.

Speaker 1 It's a confusing one because there isn't a clear answer. We should also say Deschamp has made it clear that it's not for...

Speaker 1 extra sportif things happening out off the pitch

Speaker 1 but it's also there's a bit of mystery about this because it is a big thing. And

Speaker 1 it certainly doesn't seem like he's been dropped. And it certainly doesn't seem like he's refused to turn up.
It's

Speaker 1 somewhere in the middle.

Speaker 1 Lakeep.

Speaker 1 reporting that Lakeep have apparently spoken to some people close to the Real Madrid forward who they are, they're attributing these quotes anonymously.

Speaker 1 So we don't know exactly who they have spoken to, but they've spoken to people from the Mbapis crew, presumably, who are...

Speaker 1 And I kind of want to read this quote because this is from Lakeep saying, it is an incorrect version or incomplete from the truth.

Speaker 1 It is a lot more complex than that, making people believe that it's the manager's decision is false.

Speaker 1 But the most important thing, first of all, is that Killian can rediscover happiness playing football. The rest will follow.
So it seems Killian Mbappe is kind of working to overcome some

Speaker 1 challenges. And

Speaker 1 good luck to him, I suppose. On a slightly related note, Max,

Speaker 1 what with this game going ahead, it's quite interesting that Bazikdas'

Speaker 1 Europa League home game against Maccabee Tel Aviv,

Speaker 1 scheduled for the end of this month, has been moved to Hungary and will be played behind closed doors because the Turkish government have said they don't want to host the game in Istanbul or anywhere else in Turkey.

Speaker 5 That is interesting.

Speaker 5 Other international fixtures to look at. If you're looking for a kind of Euro quarter final that isn't as interesting as you think it might be before it starts, Belgium are playing Italy.

Speaker 5 Italy currently top of their Group A,

Speaker 5 League A, but they're playing quite well actually, Italy, at the moment. They're one point above France, who they beat 3-1 in September.
Lars, Norway goes to Slovenia.

Speaker 5 I'm sure you were on this and you were saying, we're so, so good. And then suddenly you got

Speaker 5 battered by someone.

Speaker 1 Austria, Austria, pretty good, to be fair. We had a bit of a defensive collapse.
It's always the way with this Norwegian team is that when we look good, suddenly we have like defensive calamities.

Speaker 1 We're playing Slovenia and Kazakhstan in this period.

Speaker 1 I guess the big talking point is Martin Edgog, who was back for Arsenal, played a full 95 minutes against Chelsea, but has now withdrawn from the Norwegian squad.

Speaker 1 So he was fit enough to play for Arsenal in the last game, presumably will be fit enough to play for Arsenal in the next game, not fit enough to play for Norway in between, which has drawn

Speaker 1 some angry comments, I think it's fair to say. But

Speaker 1 it kind of feeds into what we were talking about earlier about the workload for the players.

Speaker 1 And obviously, he has, I believe, he'd only had two training sessions with Arsenal ahead of the Chelsea game. So he was out for like nine weeks before that.
So

Speaker 1 it's probably not a bad idea for him to sit out games against Lovenia and

Speaker 1 Kazakhstan in the Nations League in order to try to get himself right for the busy winter schedule in the Premier League that we're heading into. I think most people can understand that position.

Speaker 1 But of course, from the Norwegian Norwegian national team perspective, it's a little bit frustrating. Can I ask Claris,

Speaker 1 are the rumblings of discontent in the Norwegian media being directed at Odegaard himself or at Arsenal?

Speaker 1 Weirdly, it was kind of the Norwegian national team manager who was kind of stuck with this and it was the subject of some pretty enthusiastic questioning by a reporter.

Speaker 1 The question is, like,

Speaker 1 if Arsenal were playing Man City tomorrow, would Martin Odegaugh play? I think most people can.

Speaker 1 And and he obviously isn't in a position where he wants to call Odegaard out for anything, the manager. So it puts him diplomatically in a little bit of a difficult spot.

Speaker 1 I think by and large, there is understanding for the fact that he's been hurt and he's only recently come back and he possibly has bigger fish to fry than Kazakhstan and the Nations League.

Speaker 1 There is a delicate balance between club team and international football with these big stars.

Speaker 1 And we're very lucky that we have one of the best forwards in the world and one of the best playmakers in the world right now. But they have extensive club commitments.

Speaker 1 So, if they miss out on some games here and there, I think a lot of people will understand that.

Speaker 5 Paul, since you're here, give us a bit of Norwich because we have, I would say, not spoken about them once this season.

Speaker 4 Well, yeah, I mean, you know, there's probably good reason for that. We've just lost three on the bounce.
I think that's the main, that's the main takeaway.

Speaker 4 And as been referred elsewhere, Shane Duffy's been playing all right, but that's sort of been the only good piece of personnel news we've had for a while. I've had a lot of injuries.

Speaker 4 The thing I take away from Norwich right now as a fan is like I'm always the fan who is defending the club, defending the manager, saying everybody should kind of get off everybody's back and let them play, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 4 But we've got this guy in who's 35, Thorup, Dane.

Speaker 5 I was just about to quiz Barry on who the Norwich manager is. I've just looked it up myself.
I thought it might be David Wagner. That was the best I was going to get.

Speaker 1 Johannes Hoff Thorup.

Speaker 1 I knew he was a young fella, but I was probably gone for German.

Speaker 4 Well, we've had a trend of that. But yeah, I mean, the point I want to make is that it was David Wagner before, and Thorup has just completely revolutionized the playing style.

Speaker 4 And we play in a really attractive, aggressive, brave way.

Speaker 4 Now, we lost three on the bounce because we've got a number of injuries and our squad isn't strong enough to do what we want to do when we don't have all our players out.

Speaker 4 But it's made me think a better way is possible and without spending loads of money.

Speaker 4 So maybe I should be a little bit more kind of forgiving of people who slam managers for trying to get a nil-nil at home against, I think it was Middlesbrough, we tried to do under David Wagner.

Speaker 4 So I'm having a little bit of a rethink about my attitude towards the world, but

Speaker 4 as yet, this work is incomplete.

Speaker 5 You must know Thorup. He was the Nordchelland manager for Donkey.
Well, for a year, but he was there for ages.

Speaker 1 I just looked him up. He's an ex-Nord Schelen guy.
But Nord Sheland are an interesting sort of

Speaker 1 Nor Shelan are one of those things that you could you could definitely write like a hipster long read about it for Jonathan Wilson and the Blizzard and about seven people would read it but it would be a jolly good article because Nor Shelan are one of those teams who they they have a link up with an with the right to dream academy down in africa and they bring a lot of like um believe muhammad kudos went through there a dingrat brighten went through there uh and then they've got a lot of young nordic players as well um

Speaker 1 you see them play in europe and like almost their entire squad are like 21, 22 or younger.

Speaker 1 So they're kind of a fascinating team. And it turns out, yeah, even their managers are a bit on the young side.

Speaker 1 But I'm sure there's a lot of like interesting progressive football thinking going into that project.

Speaker 1 So I'm not surprised the Airy's come in and made Norwich play in an exciting and aggressive manner.

Speaker 5 Bark Jagos says, in Argentina, Riestra put a YouTuber in their starting 11 against league leaders Velez Sarsfield.

Speaker 5 Which Premier League club do you think think would most likely put a celebrity in their team? Who might that be? Bear Grylls at Bournemouth, Deck from Anton Deck at Newcastle.

Speaker 5 I mean, presumably, Noel Gallagher is one step away from playing for Man City, isn't he? Unless Ange suddenly loses it, puts Michael McIntyre

Speaker 5 in holding midfield for Tottenham. So, yeah, this is a Deportivo Riestra, ninth in the Argentinian Premier Division on the same points as Boca Jr.'s.

Speaker 5 Started their match against the league leaders with Ivan Bohar Jeruk, better known as Spreen, in their starting lineup.

Speaker 5 Spreen is a 24-year-old Argentinian YouTuber and Twitcher who has 7.75 million YouTube subscribers and became famous primarily doing videos about the game Minecraft.

Speaker 5 He paid for 50 seconds and was subbed off without touching the ball. He did a kind of applauding the fans as he went off.

Speaker 5 I mean, Lord knows why, because Riestra's captain, Milton Selles, said the idea came from Victor Stinfale, who owns the club or Stinfale and the energy drink company that sponsors sponsors it.

Speaker 5 When asked about Buderek's skills, he said, as a streamer, he's number one.

Speaker 5 This does seem a step too far, Paul, doesn't it?

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's the thin end of the wedge. I mean, you know, you've already hinted at it, that the commercial possibilities of this are endless.

Speaker 4 You know, you can get, you remember back in the days when, like, they'd be filming a scene of Rocky Five.

Speaker 4 somewhere near Merseyside and Sylvester Stallone would stand up at Goodison Park or whatever and he'd do a little pampe match and wave a scarf, bring him on the pitch, get him on.

Speaker 4 You know, it's like, why not?

Speaker 4 What have you got to lose? You can have one celebrity substitution per match per team.

Speaker 5 Oh, I see. No, I don't think you should be allowed one celeb per team.
You've got to use up one of your subs. That's it.
You've got to use them up.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry.
Yeah, you can use one substitute to bring on a celebrity, but only once. Yeah? Are we agreed on that?

Speaker 1 I definitely think it's a matter of when, not, if Wrexham do this. Yeah.
Just so that's been noticed.

Speaker 1 Some sort of celebrity will be on the pitch for wrexham at some point well this spreen fella uh it generated a lot of genuine anger in argentina is it so the stunt was to promote an energy drink uh the comp which is manufactured by a company owned by the owner of uh deportiva reestra

Speaker 1 and um

Speaker 1 you know the the

Speaker 1 match commentators are very scathing.

Speaker 1 The fella who scored for Velas Sarsfield, it ended in a one-all draw the game.

Speaker 1 He was very critical afterwards. He said, you know, in this game,

Speaker 1 football is all about working hard.

Speaker 1 You fall down, you pick yourself up, you fall down, blood, sweat, tears, blah, blah, blah. And this guy just sails into the first team, you know,

Speaker 1 because money.

Speaker 1 Juan Seiba Veron, who's club president of one of the teams in the Argentinian top flight, he was also very scathing. He's described it as an insult to footballers and to football.

Speaker 1 So, you know, yeah, it's a bit of a laugh, but I think they have a point.

Speaker 5 Oh, completely. I don't disagree with you.

Speaker 4 Jake Paul versus Mike Tyson this weekend, though, guys, eh?

Speaker 1 I was about to say, YouTubers doing sports is pretty big at the moment, no?

Speaker 5 Yeah, it's so grim that. I mean, not this is boxing weekly, but I mean, there's so much grimness around that fight, blimey.

Speaker 5 Finally, Paul on pedantry says uh Paul in Hong Kong here given how literal Max was about eye scratching on Monday's pod uh reseb Hutchinson saying uh he was uh scratching his eyes and I thought he was mixing his metaphors slightly I'd like to point out that Max during the pod said he'd watched a replay a million times had he watched the replay a million times it would have taken 174 days if none stopped reviewing I don't believe him so no takes one to know one I guess

Speaker 5 thank you for putting me right Paul Appreciate it. P.S.
Barry is my favourite, says Paul.

Speaker 1 Thank you, Paul. Good for you.

Speaker 1 You are loved, Barry. Man of love.
Great discernment, Paul.

Speaker 5 And that'll do for today. Thanks, everybody.
Thank you, Lars.

Speaker 1 Thank you, Max.

Speaker 5 Cheers, Paul.

Speaker 4 Thanks very much, Max.

Speaker 5 Thank you, Barry.

Speaker 1 Thanks.

Speaker 5 Football Weekly is produced by Silas Gray and Jesse Howard. Our executive producer is Phil Maynard.
We'll be back on Friday morning after the England game on Thursday night.

Speaker 5 This is The Guardian.