Haaland goes full Matrix and a belter in Barcelona: Football Weekly Extra

This is The Guardian.

And we're back live during a flex alert.

Oh, we're pre-cooling before 4 p.m., folks.

And that's the end of the third.

Time to set it back to 78 from 4 to 9 p.m.

What a performance by Team California.

The power is ours.

Think enterprise software is too costly, too complex, and takes too long to get up and running?

Think again.

Workday Go makes simplifying your small or mid-sized business simple.

HR and finance together on one powerful AI platform right at your fingertips.

Workday Go gets you live fast and fits the needs of your business.

Find out what Workday Go can do for you.

Go with Workday Go.

Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Another win, another clean sheet for Liverpool in Leipzig, while Erling Haaland goes full matrix in a regulation victory for Manchester City.

A clean sheet for Celtic in the Champions League might be the most surprising news of the night.

A great result for them in Bergamo.

Sid joins us from Barcelona to talk about their big win over Bayern, a hat-trick for Rafinia, leaving Vincent Company's men 23rd payback for all those times the Germans have stuck it to them over the years.

Meanwhile, Lille might have the win of the night, following up beating Real Madrid with victory at the Wanda and more impressive French stuff from Brest who hold Levacus and we'll do a Premier League preview with Arsenal Liverpool the pick of the games.

Then there's La Liga taking a game to the States.

Your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, hello.

Hi, Max.

From the Racing Post, Mark Langdon, welcome.

Hi, Max.

And Bourgeois Sava, Philippe Eauclaire.

Savatribio, Max.

Let's start with the English clubs then.

Liverpool winning in Leipzig and Manchester City's comfortable victory over Sparta Prague.

I guess, Mark, that game in Germany, and until the goal, Leipzig were perhaps the better team, had chances pressed high, and it looked like it might be quite a difficult night for Liverpool.

Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment, Max.

Certainly first 15 minutes wasn't amazing from Liverpool, but maybe you expect that

from a kind of home team in Champions League.

What was a really big night for them?

The crowd were up for it.

The players were up for it.

Played at a high tempo, unsettled Liverpool in that sort of first period.

And without sort of getting into too sort of cliche territory, like the goal changed the game, I suppose, because once Liverpool got it,

their noses in front, they were then able to control the match in much the way that I think Arnislot wants the team to, you know, be more thoughtful in their football maybe than what was the case under Jürgen Klopp when it was a bit more end-to-end and

by kind of 70 75 minutes Liverpool should have had this game out of sight that there was some good saves some missed chances I think one ridiculous penalty decision that wasn't given in their favour

and they were nearly made to pay right at the end and that would be the one sort of just sort of maybe point I would highlight that five of Liverpool's last six wins have been by one goal, and it doesn't take much, you can just get a slight sort of moment of bad luck, and those wins can become draws or even defeats.

So, you know, it's all going well for Arnaslot, but just maybe putting teams away might be the next step for them.

Do we accuse Darwin Nunes of being a bit David Nugent there?

I sort of think he has to go for it because, you know, you can't, he's not watching from the angle we're watching from is is what I'm thinking.

Yeah, for anyone who hasn't seen it

there was a cross from the left which Mohat Salah headed across the face of goal.

It was going in at the far post, but Darwin Nunes was running in and made sure

lashing it into the net from three inches out.

The only worry would have been maybe that he might have been offside.

Like he wasn't, but you know, if he had been,

I don't know.

I guess Mo Salah's probably not thrilled that he'd nicked that goal often, but yeah, just make sure, get it in.

But it was funny.

I was sort of wondering.

I was looking at Salah in the celebrations to see, you know, was he annoyed, but he seemed okay with it.

Yeah, he looked like he hid it well if he was.

What did you make of Nunes's?

I mean, there's not a huge amount from this game or the City game, I don't think, Philippe, but I suppose you're looking at those players who aren't starting for slot in the league.

And Nunes is one of those, if they've sort of, you know, if they've made a claim.

I mean, the same goes for Gakpo as well, I guess, in this game.

Yes, absolutely.

You could say, well, there's a lot of rotation up front.

That's obviously what Slot has decided on from the beginning of the season.

And I think the pecking order is actually, it's not as if there was a huge distance in these pecking orders, that you had a pyramid and some people at the very top and others groveling at the bottom.

There is not such a gap that you would imagine that Dawi Nunez is in the way he's any kind of pariah within the team.

It's just a little bit behind at the moment, but you could imagine that that pecking order could change in the near future.

It doesn't feel like it did feel perhaps when you had a very difficult time when Klopp was around at some stage where you thought there were actually noises

which purported to come from the training ground saying that some of the coaches were not convinced by him, that he wasn't quite the finished article, that he was very raw and they couldn't see how he could ripen into a really dangerous striker and so forth.

It doesn't feel like it to me at all but just to bounce back on what mark was saying yes they've um they've won by the one goal on the other hand

they exude uh an impression of calm in what they do

even if things are a little bit complicated well a bit more complicated there's absolutely zero panic there's a kind of serenity about the way they play which is which is new

and it's become normal.

And to be honest,

their start of the season is anything but normal following the departure of one of their greatest ever managers.

And the fact that they've barely strengthened the squad at all, if at all, because the only arrival is Federico Kesa, isn't it?

And the fact that we consider this to be normal and we even find a little, you know, few points what maybe they could do this better, they could do this better, shows what a actually phenomenal transition this has been.

Incredible.

And, you know, it's worth stressing, Mark, isn't it, that Brian, the RB Leipzig joint top of the Bundesliga, you know,

they haven't lost yet this season in the German league.

No, they were, um, I'm not sure they've been maybe as impressive as those results suggest, but that they have

been picking up the wins in the Bundesliga.

They've got a very lively forward line, Simone, Sesco, and Apenda, that will cause any team problems.

And they did have their moments against Liverpool as well.

But yeah, just to kind of back up what Philippe was saying, there is a calmness to Liverpool at the moment.

And when they do need to rely on Van Dijk and Conate to kind of be centre-backed in sort of more old-school terms and kind of, you know, just defend their lines, they're able to do that as well.

And ahead of that game against Arsenal, it's such a hectic period for everybody, but Liverpool have got a lot of big games sort of coming up weekend after midweek.

You know, the The ability to not have to play sort of Curtis Jones from the start and Robertson as well and whether Luz Diaz or Gakpo starts on the left, I think it's a bit of a toss-up at the moment.

But it's really, I think, important to be able to rotate and not lose that balance or the results.

Chris says, is it inevitable that Erling Haaland will eventually become so efficient in front of goal that he ends up having more goals than he does touches?

He beats Barter Spartaprag.

That's a bit unfair.

Man City as a team beat Spartaprag 5-0.

And City sweeping a smaller team aside in the Champions League isn't a story.

But that finish, I mean, he did it.

It's a similar one to the one against Dortmund, but I think this is better, Barry.

It might not look as good, but I think it's better.

It was a remarkable goal.

It was almost as if he was...

lying on an invisible chaise long,

you know, posing for a still life painting with his, you know, his

side of his head resting on his arm and, you know, elbow, and facing away from goal

and back heeled this cross from Savino, which was a good cross as well.

Savino, the way he got down the wing and jinked past his man was superb, sold him a brilliant dummy, stood the ball up for Harling, and then in this horizontal pose,

just quite deliberately

heeled the ball into the ground and bounced past Peter Vindal the Sparta Prague goalkeeper and

yeah there was also a kind of a

touch of the trebuchets about this one as well

just this flailing pile of limbs but he knew exactly what he was doing and he has done it before yeah

you know when you Philippe when you watch like a great tennis shot or cricket shot like the follow-through you sort of you can see how good the shot is and the timing from the follow-through and the follow-through of Holland he's going away from goal but like how his body does that I don't it's sort of wild like he's so big as well it's not like he's like a live like if he turned up to do like the Olympics right the you know the vaults you'd go this big lump he's not doing the vault but you sort of think he could do it I'm trying to think the name of this toy which is articulated toy and you can put it in any kind of position and then you when you let it go it goes back to its original position

Stretch Armstrong.

It's extraordinary.

He's a bit, yeah, I mean, there's something almost octopus-like about

hurting Haaland.

And at the same time, something

bison-like.

The flexibility of the octopus and the strength of the buffalo.

And you get Holland.

But the thing as well, when he does this...

It sounds like, was it Bravestars?

Speed of the Puma.

It sounds like that.

Anyway, I'm sorry, Carrie.

But when, I must confess, I only saw the goal after the game because I thought this is a game that's not worth watching.

But typically, when he does that, the game seems to slow down when he's doing this.

And it's all happening very fast.

But the movement, it's a bit like, you know, Simon Biles on the beam or something like that.

It's like time slows down a little bit so you understand what the hell is going on.

And he absolutely means it.

There is absolutely...

This is absolutely no fluke.

And I still prefer Olivier Giroux's scorpion kick in that kind of thing, but I think Olivier might have meant it.

There's so much luck.

He might have meant it.

Haaland did mean it, and he executed it perfectly.

It's more akin to, in fact, you know,

the Johan Cruy flying

back heel

volley, which is also completely meant.

You know, it's completely meant, then you're in the presence of basically an outstanding phenomenal player.

Yeah.

Would you like to add your 10 pence worth to the Haaland gold chat, Mark?

I mean, Ibrahimovich is the type of striker that would,

you know, you kind of associate with that goal, and it felt Ibrah-like,

but Ibrahimovic isn't as wide and stocky as Haaland.

So I think it makes it even more impressive.

The one player I'd like to shout out from this game, and he hasn't had many shout-outs since he arrived for City for over £50 million, but that's Mattheas Nunes in midfield.

mean, it's been a terrible signing for Manchester City.

If you look at how good they've been in the transfer market and how many times they get it right, this has just not worked out at all.

And it's hard to know where he fits into the team, even.

And they've had injuries, and Pep Guardio still sort of didn't trust him at all last season.

And yet, okay, it was only Sparta Prague, it was a game that City should have won.

They were already sort of leading, but to come away with a couple of assists, then he won the penalty and converted the penalty.

Maybe that's kind of the spark he needs.

And City do need players in those positions because they've got a lot of injuries at the moment.

They were expected to, you know, I think unleash Oscar Bob more this season.

And

he's out long-term.

Kevin De Bruyne has been injured.

We obviously know about Rodri as well.

So they are light in midfield.

So probably time for Nunes to step up.

And

that's a step in the right direction.

Much was made before, during and after this match of the fact that City have now gone 26 Champions League games unbeaten and that's a new European record.

I'm not having that.

I'm sorry.

They lost last season.

I don't care if it was a penalty shootout.

They lost.

I'm with you completely.

And actually, it's sort of like calendar year stats, like across, you know, the competition ends and then it starts again.

You know, it's like being unbeaten in the league and counting it from April to October.

And you're like, well,

one is the end of one season, one's the other.

I mean, okay, it's good, but it's not a thing that anyone should say,

is my opinion.

So, yeah, I'm with you, Barry.

Yes, Mark.

I would say that the cities win and their unbeaten run, unbeaten start.

And the fact that the three English teams are atop of the

one, two, and three in the Champions League is good news for those on Champions League Coefficient Watch.

I've gone

quite early.

I've gone quite early with it, but

the

English teams currently top

of the one season coefficient.

So for those that are looking for fifth place

in terms of a Champions League spot, at the moment, that's good news

for the Premier League.

And it should also be pointed out that these three teams once had James Milner in their squad.

That's a very interesting point.

Absolutely.

They talk about completely meaningless statistics.

That is meaningless.

Calendar years,

James Milner being part of your squad.

And just sorry, before we move on from this game, I know he let in five goals, but Peter Vindel, the Sparta Prague goalkeeper, made an unbelievable save from Harling Downer at Header

when it was still only one nil.

It wasque.

Very similar to that Gordon Banks save from Pele.

Atalanta nil, Celtic nil.

Barry, yeah, I mean, I mean, you talk about Gogu's making saves.

Casper Schmeichel was quite busy, as were the Celtic defence in this game.

But to get a point from there is actually pretty sensational, given they shipped seven against Dortmund.

Yeah, that's the context in which they went into this game.

They were far too open against Dortmund, who, you know, basically had seven chances and scored all seven of them.

And

Celtic went into this game and changed their approach and were put on a sort of defensive masterclass.

Schmeichel, as you say, was quite busy, but he didn't have to make any tremendous brilliant saves.

That's a fair point.

Hasalich smashed a header against the bar in the first half.

That was the closest Atalanta came to scoring.

And then they kind of ran out of ideas in the last 20 minutes.

I would say Celtic were more comfortable in the second half than they were in the first.

Very good point.

And needless to say, Brendan Rodgers couldn't resist getting a little snipe in afterwards by saying, I'm not sure if that was pragmatic enough for some people.

So, you know,

you do you, Brendan.

You still lost 7-1.

Brilliant defensive performance.

I did notice at halftime they were showing like the best bits from each team.

And Celtics' two best bits were two passes.

into the opposition half.

Yeah, I didn't see a lot.

They had one deflected strike from their left back that went over.

Was it it pragmatic enough for you, Mark?

No, it wasn't because this is one of them games where the kind of result hides

the

performance, in my opinion, because if you look at the expected goals in Dortmund, Celtic gave up 2.6 and conceded seven goals.

Away to Atalanta, they gave up 2.3 and conceded none.

So I think that's just the randomness of football.

I agreed with Barry that the second half from Atalanta sort of fizzled out.

And from Gasperini's point of view, he made too many changes.

I think sometimes managers do that when they're on top and they're dominating and you feel like a goal's coming.

And then when it doesn't, the manager feels obliged to change things, even though the team's playing really well.

And they got worse with the changes that he made.

I thought that Liam Scales was very good for Celtic, somebody that I haven't seen that much of.

I don't, you know, obviously Barry would have seen more, and sort of hopefully, from an Irish point of view,

he can regrow.

But he definitely impressed.

But I think it's one of them, sort of the quirks of football, really, that on most days,

Celtic lose that game.

And actually, don't think they were anywhere near as bad as the end result in Dortmund.

But, you know, you can't say you've played well after a 7-1 defeat, can you?

But there wasn't.

Well, Brendan Rogers might, I suppose.

If anyone can, he might.

All right, that'll do for part one.

Tid joins us for part two.

When you're a forward thinker, you don't just bring your A game, you bring your AI game.

Workday is the AI platform that transforms the way you manage your people, money, and agents so you can transform tomorrow.

Workday, moving business forever forward.

Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was the new game, Day Scratches from the California Lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question.

Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

A little play can make your day.

Please play responsibly.

Must be 18 years or older to purchase, play, or claim.

Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Let's say hello to Sid Lowe.

Hello, Sid Lowe.

Good morning.

How are you?

Very good, thank you.

So Barcelona, Bayern won.

You were there.

How was it?

Wild.

It was really, really fun.

It was a football match played on top of a cliff.

It was quite bizarre.

I mean, Barcelona in particular, but Bayern played their part in it.

Well, definitely played their part in it if you look at the four goals.

Both of them played, tried to catch each other offside.

They both sort of squeezed it.

Do you know what it was?

It's just occurred to me as I'm sitting here doing that squeezy hand thing of squeezing the space until there's literally they're playing in a kind of a 15-minute meter strip of the pitch and huge spaces outside.

It's like the walls coming in in Star Wars, and that guard shoe, and then when they're coming in, and then they're getting tighter and tighter and tighter.

And it made for a really, really enjoyable and fascinating game because you had this kind of sense that they were desperately fighting for every little inch within that 15-meter strip, knowing that, yeah, but here comes the moment when we've suddenly got 40 yards.

So you just fight, just enough to be able to get the pass off and go into the space beyond and it was it was a lot of fun and you know business one it wouldn't have been a huge surprise watching the game if buying had won 4-1 it was you know they were both prepared to take loads and loads of risks and has he flick was fun interesting afterwards because he was talk he talking about that and saying that you know obviously there's the coordination that goes into it there's a talent that goes into it there's timing that goes into it but there's also that braveness of of of saying when my players are pushing really really high of saying to them and you stay high you know when you don't win that ball back you don't go, all right, everybody, fall back in.

No, keep, keep, keep, keep going at it.

And uh, and it was, yeah, it was loads and loads of fun.

It was massive emotionally for Barcelona as well.

Really massive.

Yeah, because of, you know, Bayern have hammered them so many times.

You put it in your report, didn't you?

Like, you're just, there are so many other times.

And actually, Hansie Flick, I'd forgotten this, was the Bayern manager when they smashed him eight, two.

There's a nice line from

John Laporta this week when he'd said to Hansie Flick, you owe us one.

I think he might have gone some of the way at least to repaying him last night because you've got that 8-2.

The last four times I think they played Bayern, they didn't even score.

The aggregate score across the last games, including that 8-2, I think is, I think, I mean, I wrote it last night, I can't remember what it was now.

I think it was 22-4

in those games.

But it was more than that.

I think what's happened over these last few years is that Bayern have been the team that have turned up and said to Barcelona, this is your reality.

You're really not there very good.

And for the last few years, Barcelona, obviously, haven't just not won won the Champions League.

At no point have they really felt like they could.

Certainly since the 8-2.

I mean, I guess there's the, you know, there's the 8-2, and then just the season before, because before that, they'd had Rome and they'd had Liverpool, where they thought they were going through and they blew it.

And there was this kind of mental thing.

And then they got beaten 8-2, and that was like the final, definitive demonstration that it's gone.

And then every time they thought, are we starting to improve?

Byron would come along and say, no, you're not.

And so I think last night was

about saying,

okay, this is a good team, but about saying, actually, this is genuinely a good team.

Because they've been brilliant in La Liga so far this season.

They've only lost once.

They're top of the table.

They're going into Flasco this weekend with people daring to say they were favourites.

And you're thinking, this is where they get their bit, where they get a week with Bayern and Real Madrid, and this is where they get done.

And they didn't.

Danny says, please do a 30-minute segment on Jesse Marsh playing Rafinha as a right wing back and making him take long throws.

I mean, Barry, it was

some hat-trick, Barry, wasn't it?

as Cida said that the scoreline doesn't reflect Bayer Munich's performance, but I think Barcelona had a much more disciplined back forward.

Kim and Upper Meccano kept getting pulled out of position and that left gaps.

And Rafina

very much exploited them.

His first goal came in the first minute.

when I think it was Kim was caught up field and he was played in behind, took the ball around Neuer and fired home.

His second was played a

Marqu Casado played him a brilliant must be 60 yard crossfield diagonal and

he ran at Rafael Guerrero who was backpedaling and backpedaling and backpedaling and then just fired it into the far corner and his fourth another brilliant pass from Laminia Mao

Rafina sort of ran between two defenders took it down and it was just a brilliant counter attacking goal I mean, this is a great cathartic win for Barcelona, but I'm just curious, Sid, it must be even better that they did it with so many, such a young side, comprised almost entirely, really, of, apart from a couple of exceptions, of La Mesia graduates.

Yeah, definitely.

That's a big part of it.

They started the game last night with six players who are under 21.

I must confess, in the madness of doing the match report and all the substitutions, I don't know what they ended the game with.

I think there might have been nine line involved.

Right, yeah, I don't know how many 21s have been and gone at that point, but obviously, and there's a couple of other things as well that feed into that.

Obviously, the reason that those kids are playing, apart from the fact that they're very good, is that, and this is always the case when young players get a chance in a first team, it's about opportunity, and it's been because of injuries and because of the financial difficulties, which have meant they haven't been able to sign who they've wanted to sign.

But the other thing that happened last night, which goes hand in hand with that, is that you get Olmo and Gavi and the Young on the pitch who've all come back from injuries.

So there's this sense that not only have Barca got to to this point of the season playing really well, they're now getting everybody back as well.

And I think

the younger players last night, I mean, I don't know what it looked like on the sally because in the stadium, sometimes it's a bit different, but I thought Paul Ka Kulbasi was extraordinary again.

And Mark Cassador, who

I'm not exaggerating to say that two months ago, no one had heard of him.

Well, not no one, obviously.

I'm sure some people had, but most people hadn't heard of him.

I thought was phenomenal.

You mentioned that diagonal pass, Barry, which was right in front of me

because of where we're sitting.

And it's rare that when you're in the midst of the match report, you kind of get a moment of clarity because something happens just in front of you.

But he was also put under a huge amount of pressure.

And it looks like he's being forced into the corner.

And he finds a way out.

And then bang, the ball's gone.

And suddenly the whole game was gone.

He's taken out the entire game with one pass.

And that was, for me, the kind of the,

if you like, the embodiment of this game.

It was a game where you had to fight to get those little bits of space and then bang to go and occupy the huge space that everyone had left by by squeezing in on each other.

And yeah,

the performance of the younger players was a really big part of this.

Ferdinand Lopeth is a player who I think is brilliant.

We forgot this, I think.

Last year, Realmudji went to Mondruic and beat Barcelona 2-1 in the Classico.

Bellingham scored twice, and obviously, one of them is a brilliant goal from kind of 30 yards, and the other he scores in the last minute.

And of course, and quite rightly, everybody's focus was on Bellingham.

But I think if you watch that game back and you watch the first hour, Fermin was wonderful, Miles better than Bellingham.

He had controlled that game.

And it was this real sense of him and Gavi and Bellingham having this battle.

And it was him and Gavi that came out on top.

And last night was a, was, I suppose, a, what's the word I'm looking for?

A reassertion, I guess, of, of, of that talent.

Mark, Bayern, as we've established, you know, they, they, they, I mean, perhaps, could have won it as perhaps a stretch, but, you know, they weren't terrible in this game, but

they still lost 4-1 to Barcelona, right?

It's the second defeat for Vincent Company in the Champions League.

They've had centre-back issues for a while.

You know, it's Kieran Up and Makano.

It might have been Delicht and Dire last year.

They're just not sure in that area of the pitch.

No, I think that individually, I don't trust either of them.

Collectively,

things are made even worse by what they're being asked to do, which is to cover an enormous amount of space both behind them and sort of side to side because the fullbacks like to go forward as well.

From buying Noya looks increasingly uncomfortable, I think, as well.

He's made mistakes in the Champions League already.

Obviously he didn't cost them against Dynamo Zagreb when they won, you know, absolutely thrashed him, but it's still an issue.

And he gave the ball away a couple of times in dangerous positions last night.

But

I was...

Kicker described Bayern's performance as a debacle, which I felt was harsh, but that may be just when you lose 4-1 and you buy Munich,

it has to be considered a big thing.

I just fundamentally think what they're trying to do is flawed.

They look like a team that will always be attractive because of the amount of players they put forward.

But they've conceded three goals to Ayrontrap Frankfurt, even against Baye Levikus and dominated the game.

They still conceded in that one.

Against Aston Villa, they were on top, it felt like for most of the game.

But Unai Emre,

I think, was comfortable with the fact that Bayern were going to have all the ball and knew that that kind of chip over the top was always on and it would eventually sort of pay dividends.

And after the game, Vincent Company said that Barca played a more simple game and involved a lot of long balls.

But

why would you not do the long ball when there's all this space?

Why would you play short passes when Bayern have got seven, eight players in that midfield looking to win the ball back there when you can just go over the top?

So I would say there's work to do for Vince and Company.

There's still enough time time to recover in the champions league i like what they're doing going forward harry kane's goal was great and he you know he also had one just offside that um was also you know wonderfully created but if you're going to win the champions league or compete at that level you've got to be able to defend better than what they do i like the idea that vincent company you know obviously everyone said at burnley he wasn't worried about burnley he was just thinking about himself and now he's at buyer munich he doesn't care where they finish he just cares about himself and you're thinking well what what's the huge step up you're going to get from that sort of like just taking over FIFA?

And then he won't be bothered about FIFA, and then he'll take over the world.

And actually, his Vincent Company will just run the universe by sort of failing upwards so many times.

Do you know what?

I'd rather Vincent Company ran the universe than the bastards who are doing it at the moment.

Very good point.

Yes, you'd have a high line, but it would be better.

Goals change games, and I maintain that Barça's second goal changed everything.

And I think it should have been choked off because the fact that there is a foul on Kim, and don't tell me he's not strong enough, He's actually jumping.

And I can tell you, if you're pushed in the back as you're jumping, you're going to fall over.

It was a blatant foul, and it was not choked off.

And it might have been very different, or it might have been actually exactly the same.

We'll never know.

We'll never know.

So, meanwhile, you know, Atleti, who were thrashed by Ben Fica in the last round of pictures, now lose at home to Lill, who follow up beating Real Madrid with this win in Madrid.

And Philippe, Lille started with all their stars on the bench.

It was fascinating.

Yeah, I know, but it it was only Atlético, you know, so therefore Genizio knew what the real games were about.

It's all about the French, it's about Ligand.

And no, it worked an absolute treat.

And I think everybody was surprised by how well they performed and also by the choice, you know, but Bruno Genizio, if you think about him, has probably got the dullest image of any French manager you can think of in Ligand.

He's really the technocrat, the guy in the shadows, the guy who doesn't really fill you with enthusiasm and passion, is a really good technician, but that's about it.

And then he comes up with that and he comes up and they come up with this extraordinary performance.

And you saw actually the difference when the big guns, so to speak, the Jonathan Davids, came on and actually

surprised.

I don't know if it is,

to be honest, I don't know if it's a surprise anymore because maybe I've read too much of Sid and other people who cover Spanish football.

But I had a feeling that they might be able to do something Lil before that game because what's in front of them is having huge trouble, whereas Lil is just enjoying

what is going on.

You know, when you think about Genesio, it's actually quite extraordinary, the stat.

In the Champions League, there are not many managers who can say that, especially managers who, when they're in the room, you know, you don't see them.

All you can see is

the carpet and the wall hangings.

But he's beaten Pep Guardiola when he was at Lyon, right, at Manchester City.

He's taken care of José Mourigno with Fenabace.

He's now taken care of Carlo Ancellotti in Real Madrid.

And it's just that added Diego Simeone to the number of list of managers he's beaten in the Champions League.

That's pretty remarkable for a non-entity, isn't it?

Can I respectfully argue without I had no wish to reign on Lille or Philippe's parade, but I think they were incredibly lucky with the league.

Of course they were.

I mean, actually.

They were also incredibly lucky against Real Real Madrid, but there you go.

Yeah,

I still couldn't work out what their penalty was for.

I've watched it.

I have no idea.

I've watched it five or six times.

I have no idea what it is.

And bizarrely for Athleti, like they did complain, but they didn't complain as much as Athleti should complain about anything that goes against them.

Obviously, you're at a different game, Sid, but what's the vibe on this Athleti defeat?

Yeah, I mean,

a different game.

I've not seen this yet.

I saw the comments from Athleti last night on the penalty saying they still don't know what it was actually for because the ref told them one thing and then told them something else.

Oh, good.

But I can't contextualise that because I haven't seen it.

I have no idea either.

But the vibe of Athletico Madrid is that you can't quite work out what's going on with them this year.

Their starting 11 changes almost every game.

The structure is changing.

There's a real feel that he's not quite sure how to get his new players in.

Bear in mind, this is a team that outspent the rest of Spain in the summer.

Julian Alvarez came, Sorloth came, Robin Lenormand came, Conor Gallagher came into the team.

And there's still that sense that he doesn't quite know how to best get them into the side.

Last night, Sorloff,

the one thing I did see or hear on the way back from the Barcelona game last night was that he missed three really, really good chances.

And it does feel like he hasn't quite settled in yet.

He had this last year with Villao, a really poor start, and then a brilliant end to the season.

But yeah, the vibe with Atletico is that they're unbeaten in La Liga, but they've drawn loads of games, is that they're really not this good, not that good.

And we've got this kind of recurring thing with Atletico.

Apart from Barcelona over the years, I don't think we've ever talked about a team as much as we have Atletico in terms of identity, what it is they are and what it is they want to be.

Because of course, we have this kind of clash between, in theory, at least what Simeoni is and what his players want to be.

And it doesn't quite gel together because they should be more than they are.

They should be more offensive, more expansive than they are.

And they're just kind of not, basically.

Yeah, that's interesting.

I thought they'd done, I thought their summer business was exciting.

That's part part of the problem.

That was good, yeah.

That's that's the problem because everybody thought, wow, look at that.

And,

you know, you've all seen far more of Julian Alvelev than me, but there was a huge amount of excitement about him.

For what it's worth, I thought that was a ridiculously high price to pay for him, but that's kind of another question: 90 million euros, I think, or 80 million euros.

But yes, that's exactly part of the problem, Max.

If you look at this and take a step back and you think, you know, when it starts to work, they haven't lost too much ground on everybody else.

But now it's two defeats in the Champions League.

And actually,

they might not be in that top.

How many teams is it?

Top 27 that go through all of them.

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I mean, the bottom line is none of this is going to matter.

Well, that's it.

None of us know.

We were just saying before we came on air, the games were good.

Don't know what any of them mean.

Sid, while we've got you, La Liga's hopeful of getting approval for Barcelona's game with Athleti in December to be played in Miami.

I tell Philippe, you know, bang up for this.

Free trip to Miami.

Can't wait.

Get a freebie.

But what has the response been like to this in Spain?

Philippe just shook his head, and I'm going to shake my my head as I tell you this.

The response to this in Spain has been there has been no response.

If you're expecting a furious backlash against this, fan marches through the street, nothing.

This was blocked when Tebos tried to do it before, but it was largely blocked because Luz Rubialis, of course, the former president, because of everything that happened with the Spanish women's team,

blocked it and fought it because those two were at war over absolutely everything.

Rubialis is gone.

And so Tebos is essentially in a position where there's a power void at at the Federation, so he can hopefully get this through, is what he thinks.

There isn't really a huge backlash.

I think what will probably happen is it will probably be presented as a fait accompli.

It'll be done and everyone will go, oh.

And then you'll have some people say they're not very happy about it.

You'll have, there's a couple of fans groups in Spain, but they're relatively small and relatively powerless, and they will fight against it, or they will talk up, they speak against it, but I don't think anything will be done to stop it.

I think if they don't get blocked by an institution,

in other words, if FIFA don't block it or UEFA don't block it or the US Soccer Federation, or whatever they're called, don't block it, then I think it will go ahead.

Both clubs are pretty keen.

So, yeah,

I mean, this is by the way, the context of this.

We've had this enormous debate, almost the only debate over the last month about players are playing too many games, doing too much traveling, going around the world too much.

Hey, I've got a great idea, boss.

Why don't we, on the final game before Christmas, take Barcelona Atletico across the US?

And they're both due to play in Saudi in the Spanish Super Cup at the beginning of January as well.

Yeah, it's one thing that I just cannot quite get my head around it, Sid, is that I can understand that the fans or associates of

the really big clubs, the clubs that win and win and win and win, don't really feel any need to question what is going on in football at large in terms of things like this game, the equivalent of the 39th game Richard Scudermore brought to La Liga.

I'm surprised at the total lack of response from fans from smaller clubs because

it's like,

honestly, it's like a middle finger pointed to all those small clubs and from La Liga, but also from the second and third division.

It's like you don't exist.

We do what the hell we want.

And there's absolutely zero reaction, like there's zero reaction to all the nonsense that could be happening in their federation, that is happening at UEFA, at FIFA.

It seems in Spain, it doesn't matter at all.

And

I can understand that for the big clubs, but not for the smaller ones.

I don't understand that.

The Spanish reaction is almost the other way around.

Unfortunately, this might take a while, but I'm going to try and unpack it.

I think we saw, I mean, just the first thing to say is I think we saw this a little bit with the Super League falling apart.

The Super League fell apart because of the reaction of English fans, not because of the reaction of anyone in Spain.

No one in Spain fought that.

Atletico backed out when they saw that everyone else was backing out.

A handful of Atletico fans complained about it, but that was kind of it.

Most people sort of let it go.

Why the big clubs, The big clubs accepted it, obviously because they were behind it, or at least some of them were.

Some of the sort of aspiring to be big clubs spoke out against the Super League, so Sevilla did and so on.

But of course, everybody pointed at them and said, Yeah, but if they'd included you,

you'd have been well up for this.

Now, you say now, why, you know, the big clubs accept it, and you can understand that, and the smaller clubs

haven't said anything, and that's what you can't understand.

Funny enough, it's the big clubs who are challenging the footballing status quo, because, of course,

in the case of Barcelona and Real Madrid, and particularly Real Madrid, they're the drivers of the Super League so they're the ones complaining about these things and when we talk about these things for example about players playing too many games that is actually an elite football problem rather than a low level football problem so that debate about has this have we played too many games well that was led in Spain by Danny Carvajo who plays for Real Madrid and Rodri who plays for Manchester City you know two two of the most elite clubs and so actually the kind of the the the attack on football's power structures is actually coming from the most powerful club of all in Spain and it's interesting to hear sometimes you get Real Madrid fans who say, look, we're the only ones standing up for what's right in football.

Now, obviously, there's interest behind that, but there's sort of an element of truth in that.

And it's quite curious.

Now, why don't the smaller clubs do anything?

And as I said, sorry, this does go on a bit.

Well, I think in a way, it's partly about those power structures.

You've got a country so dominated by Madrid and Barcelona, where the small clubs are so used to being messed around, or not necessarily messed around, but used to being not on the media agenda, not part of the focus.

They're used to the fact that it's Real Madrid and Barcelona and then everyone else.

That's not quite true because there are some other big clubs, and Atletico certainly are a massive club now, and there are clubs with big fan bases.

But so, there's been lots of protests from smaller clubs over the years, banners about kickoff times and stuff like that.

But it's all very localized.

It just doesn't get picked up by anyone else.

So it's there, but it doesn't get picked up.

And in the case of this particular game, quite honestly, I think most other clubs in Spain, and certainly the smaller ones, the ones that do have mentality of challenging authority.

So I would say Alavess's fans, Rye Vayakano's fans, they're the two that really stand out to me off the top of my head.

They're the ones that are most likely to have a banner, most likely to chant for Teg Us to Leave, and all those kind of things.

They are, in all honesty, I think, looking at this and thinking, well, go on then, sod off.

We don't care.

So, in a way, it doesn't affect them.

And that's what I say to you, Sid.

Sod off.

Yes,

thanks for your time, mate.

Cheerio.

Sid, low there.

Out in Spain.

It's interesting.

I think we're having this conversation on the day that the legislation about the regulator in England is being sort of passed, I think, isn't it?

I think it's today.

Yeah, you're right.

And actually, there was some news yesterday about the powers that this bill will have

related to parachute payments

and also

that the regulator will no longer be required to consider government foreign and trade policy when approving club takeovers, which is interesting.

But obviously, the proof will be in the eating of the regulator pudding, which, you know, which it may well turn out to be.

Who the chefs are in the regulator kitchen.

Yeah, you're absolutely right.

Right, let's crack through the rest of the Champions League games.

Brest won, Leverkusen won.

Philippe, you can glow about breast.

I think that's, you know, we have to have

a great story in this Champions League.

Even if we end up having loads of good stories and at the end, actually, nothing changes, just a few clubs get out and that's it.

That's quite remarkable.

Nobody gave them a chance in hell to do anything.

I mean, you have to remember when they were, when Eric Rais arrived at the club in 2023, they were actually fighting against relegation.

He managed to turn things around to such an extent that they finished in the top four, and they qualified to top three, actually, and qualified directly for the Champions League.

And then everybody expected them to be absolutely smashed by everybody.

And you look at their result.

I mean, it's not as if they've necessarily played against the biggest team or the greatest team in the competition.

But to be honest, nobody was expecting them to do anything against Stomgrats, perhaps, winning 4-0 at Salzburg that nobody had seen coming.

They were very lucky on the night, okay, but they won 4-0.

But then by Oliver Kusen, that was a whole different ballgame.

And people thought, no, it's impossible.

It would carry on.

And it did.

And I'm sure, I mean, Jabi Alonso is absolutely furious because he thinks that there was a penalty that should have been given.

Not so sure about that but the fact that he was furious i think he was furious about the fact that he'd been done so to speak it's only a draw but by a club and a team that nobody really was expecting because their stadium is so bad and so little they got to play at the rue de rue which is that in gangon uh which is like one of their direct rivals that's one thing their manager henri

uh had only managed one club he's 56 right he had managed one club for one year before taking care of uh

breast.

He was a sports director.

Some people might remember him at Watford.

That particular team doesn't have any stars.

I think the budget, well, the turnover is 45 million Euros.

So that's under 40 million pounds per year.

This is, you know, like a championship team.

And they just...

It's like nobody has told them you're, you know, maybe people tell them they're bad and they don't believe it because they were bloody good.

Did you say, you saw that equalizing equalizing goal.

I think absolute beauty.

Pierre Les Meloux.

And the other thing, I mean, that shows you the kind of

club and players were talking about.

Pierre-Les Meloux had an absolutely fantastic season in Liga and he was chosen in the team of the season.

And Didier Deschamps said, why don't you come to the training camp?

I want to have a look at you.

And Les Meloux said, I don't think so, Gaffer.

It's too high a step for me to take.

And he didn't go.

That's the kind of club you're talking about

their sponsor is a team their sponsor is is a brand of yogurt I've said that before but I when in this day and age this is marvelous their chairman is a man who was born in breast is who is a local businessman who doesn't deal with

oil or betting or anything like that he sells food So he's a good man.

And

he's their owner and their chairman.

So all I can say is that we're all behind Brest.

It's a marvelous, marvelous story.

And to be honest, they might still cock it up.

You know, it's possible.

Next for them is Sparta Prague, but then afterwards, they've got to play in Barcelona.

That might be one step too far.

And then PSV, Shakta.net, and Real Madrid.

That's what's on the menu for the Brestois.

But at the moment, you know, it's just the story of the season for us.

Elsewhere, agony for young boys.

They definitely deserve something against Inter,

but they lost 1-0 to an injury time, Marcus Taram goal.

Big win for Fire Nord away at Benfica.

I'm not sure anyone expected that, especially after Benfica smashed Athleti the last time around.

And Dina Mozagreb won 2-0 at Arby Salzburg.

Well done to Match of the Day, the highlights show for finding out a way to do the league table, which is in four bits.

Top eight on one side, then ninth to 24th in the middle, the playoff teams, and then 25th to 36.

Out on the right, elimination.

Conference league is tonight for Man United and Spurs and Rangers, Penathan Icos, Bay Chelsea, the Conference League, and Lahn Shamrock Rovers in the Conference League as well.

It's a big game over the water.

And we probably won't talk about any of those games on Monday because there's all the Premier League.

But you never know.

And I've rattled through all of that because I want to do a bit of a Premier League preview next.

When you're a forward thinker, you don't just bring your A game, you bring your AI game.

Workday is the AI platform that transforms the way you manage your people, money, and agents so you can transform tomorrow.

Workday, moving business forever forward.

Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was the new Game Day Scratchers from the California Lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question.

Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

A little play can make your day.

Please play responsibly.

Must be 18 years or older to purchase, play, or claim.

Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Okay, then Arsenal Liverpool, Mark.

How do you see this?

That's a tough one, Max, really.

I'll go for the stock barry answer.

I don't know.

I think much will depend on kind of what Team Arsenal are able to put out.

There's a few doubts at the moment.

They're obviously not playing as well as what they would like, probably because of the injuries as well as the red cards.

If they're able to get most of those players back, I know Saliba's out, then I would still sort of edge towards Arsenal at home.

I would sort of say that

I don't necessarily think that everything's gone wrong for Arsenal and this is, you know, the start of a downward spiral for them.

The games that they've come unstuck in have been because of their own fault in terms of the red cards have been

some real silly ones.

Within that, when they've had 11 men on the pitch, the results

have been good.

They've had a number of hard away games.

So I don't see this as being

the Premier League team do or die for them.

I think it was Paul Merson who's sort of hung up his sort of Twinkle Toes ballet shoes and sort of moved back onto the the onto football punditry this week saying that it's a cup final for Arsenal and they've got to win.

I don't see it as that.

It's way too early on in the season.

Yeah, I'd maybe edge towards Arsenal if they're able to put out a familiar looking team.

I wish I were as optimistic as Mark is.

And it has to do with emotional involvement with the team.

Therefore, you always underestimate their chances.

You always think you're going to cock it up.

But I think there are some objective elements which make you think that it could be a very unpleasant game for Arsenal.

What the team will look like without Saliba, I have no idea.

We don't know.

Ben White, perhaps, moving into central defense, you don't know.

Jacob Kivior has played there too.

In any case, it will

unbalance the team and also it will unbalance the great

understanding, the kind of pyramid at the base of the team that has been the Raya study by Gabrielle Relationship on which everything else has been built.

But it's not that that's not only that.

Buka Osaka is supposed to come back, but which state is he going to be in?

Is he going to be as fresh, as sharp as he had been since the beginning of the season?

We don't know.

Martin Ludoyard is still out.

Leonardo Troissart is having a funny moment.

He's not actually far on cylinders.

He's having some, he's had a couple of poor performances.

You look around, and Declan Rice looks one step behind what he was like last season.

And we could carry on like this throughout the whole squad.

And there is also a lack of rhythm.

There's a lack of imagination

running through the team at the moment.

I think it's actually not...

You know, the results have been perfectly fine, to be honest, especially given the circumstances.

But when you look at the performances,

I haven't been convinced.

And,

you know, okay, and

I do fear that Liverpool might have what it takes to create big problems to Arsenal.

They come in a very, very different frame of mind.

I feel a lot of tension around Arsenal.

And I think it will depend a lot on how Arteta is about.

He's able to diffuse that tension within the dressing room and on the pitch to let his fellows maybe express themselves a bit more freely, because that hasn't been the case in the recent past.

Barry,

beyond, I don't know.

I I think Liverpool will win this.

I think they might win it quite comfortably, actually.

It's interesting, isn't it?

I mean, I just do think if Saka's not quite at it and Odegaard, they're such massive misses for a squad that went, you know, obviously Man City are missing De Bruyne and Rodri, but that they have more depth.

You know, they don't have like endless depth, but they do have more depth than Arsenal.

And that's not a,

you know, it's not a crime.

I think Saliba will be a big, big loss.

Although, like, Ben White was a brilliant centre-back at Brighton, right?

like he didn't play right back he's not brilliant at that so that is possible isn't it um what other games take your fancy mark not many uh no no I'm looking forward to

I'm looking forward actually to Chelsea against Newcastle on on Sunday

because Chelsea have left a good impression I think on on most people despite that defeat at Anfield and

if you actually look at some of the home results um you know they didn't beat Crystal Palace and they didn't beat Newcastle and they've lost to Man City and then away from home they lost at Liverpool.

But that general sense is that they are heading in the right direction and there's a lot to like about them.

So,

you know, you that's all well and good up until a point, but you do want to then sort of back that up with wins.

And so Newcastle, I watched their game against Brighton last week and I couldn't believe that they lost.

I thought they played as well as I've seen Newcastle actually this season and they just got done by one moment in a game that they totally dominated.

But they've not been at their best for most of this campaign and just wonder whether pressure starts to build slightly on Eddie Howe if they were to say go and lose at Stamford Bridge, which I think most people would expect them to do.

Yeah, Newcastle are having a funny season because they started it playing badly but winning and picking up points.

And now they're playing well and losing.

And goals are hard to come by for them.

One imagines Alexander Isaac will hit his straps at some point after his return to injury, but he missed several really, really good chances you'd expect him to dispatch with a minimum of fuss in that Brighton game.

West Ham Manchester United, Philippe, has a big crisis claxon hanging over it.

There's a sword of Damocles over that game.

Absolutely.

And I think that the two games that I'd like to

watch, but the thing is that I would probably hate watching them because they're probably going to be horrible games.

It's Crystal Palace Spurs and West Ham Man United, because in both cases,

we're already on manager watch here because you can't

think that it's possible for West Ham to carry on for a long time like this because it's just not working.

But you could say, alternatively, that thing's not exactly working for 10 Hag either.

And then you're looking at Crystal Palace, where

somebody who was fated as the man who had transformed the fortunes of Crystal Palace is now

looking in the abyss, I think is what people would say.

So yeah, I mean,

the West Manchester United is probably,

in terms of artistic notes, is probably something that we should really get ready for, as in this is going to be tough, guys.

This is you're going to the dentist and the anesthetic is not really working, but you've got to go through it because it's going to be interesting in the end.

The result is going to be interesting.

There's a masochism to it.

Absolutely.

I mean,

in the same way that you've convinced me that Arsenal lose 8-0 to Liverpool with my Spurs,

you could just see Palace beating Spurs, can't you, Mark?

They've done it before at Selhurst Park.

I wonder on Spurs, Mark, how you feel about that sort of Madison Kulasevsky midfield who plays in the 10

type thing?

Well, on the, I remember on the train to the

North London Derby, where actually I was engrossed in a conversation with my dad about James Madison and how I don't think he should be an automatic pick, and that I would like to see him dropped.

We actually, for the, you know, having done the trip for so many years, we just got on the wrong train that didn't actually stop at

Northumberland Park and it shot past and had to get a train back.

So, yeah, I'm quite passionate about James Madison in that I just don't think he's done enough over,

I don't know, last six months, you know, the last few months when he came back of last season and barring

some okay

performances this season, but I don't think he's been amazing.

He's certainly not undroppable.

He sort of sat there on the bench against West Ham as if it was so unfair that he'd been sort of taken off at half-time,

really miserable looking on the bench.

Kunasevski's playing better than him, and if you're going to put both fullbacks into midfield,

I think it makes sense to have at least one other midfielder that has got a sort of defensive responsibility.

And if that means Kulasevsky is playing better than Madison, then he should be in the team.

And it's up to Madison to improve and get up to Kulassewski's level.

Let's finish with this email from Will, who says, hi, Max.

Hi, Barry.

Barry, Barry, Glendenning.

I'm Will.

And I just wanted to get in touch to say that it was me who was the, upon reflection, overly enthusiastic listener that shouted down Barry by Clapham Common on Monday.

I'm an avid listener.

I wanted to thank you all for the pod.

I never miss an episode.

I can only apologise to Barry for my exuberance at actually seeing one of you out and about.

I'd also like to reassure him.

The wild.

I'd like to reassure him that even if deep down he did want me to fuck off, it did not appear as such.

And his genuine concern that I shut up and moved with the traffic before I felt the wrath of an angry taxi driver was touching and appreciated.

I must add as well that as a man who's just hit 30, being told that I looked late 20s was a lovely confidence boost on my walk home from work today.

I know lots of your listeners have said this but the pod is a real constant for me and hearing you all discuss the game I love every week is a joy and a chance to escape the world for an hour or so through the ups and downs of life both on and off the pitch.

You guys are there and never fail to make me laugh and as a Reading fan I've enjoyed plenty of downs recently so this has been even more appreciated.

Thank you for your coverage of the protests about our terrible owner and the dire state of our club.

And here is to hoping something can finally change.

I'd also like to say that as a gay footballer who also plays every Saturday for an inclusive LGBTQ team London Falcons, I want to thank you as well for your support of the community on the pod, especially with your coverage of the Qatar World Cup and homophobic chanting at Grounds.

If you could give us a shout-out ahead of our massive Wimbledon and District League Division 2 fixture at the weekend, that would be amazing and hugely appreciated.

As you can tell by the length of this email, Barry wasn't lying when he said he couldn't get a word in Edgeways when we had our very one-way conversation.

Keep up the great work and again, thanks for the inadvertent shout-out.

It's a clip that will keep me laughing for a long time.

If I ever see any of you again, I I promise to try and be a bit more restrained with my enthusiasm.

All the best, Will.

Thank you, Will.

There you are, Barry.

Can you imagine how angry the taxi driver would have got if Will had said all that to me on Monday evening?

And another thing, and another thing, and another thing.

No, thank you, Will.

We appreciate your message.

Football Weekly at theguardian.com if you want to get in touch, and that'll do for today.

Thank you, Mark.

Thank you, Max.

Cheers, Philippe.

Thank you, Max.

Thank you, Barry.

Thank you.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Christian Bennett.

This is The Guardian.