A very Spursy game at Brighton and Brentford’s bevy of goals: Football Weekly

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

I think it was us who said last week that Spurs had handed over that Spurs-y tag.

Well, that was silly.

I think it was us who said that recently Adama Triore had an end product.

Well, that was silly.

I think it was us who praised Anthony Gordon's penalty process.

Well, you know the rest.

Also, today's struggles for Wolves blown away at score immediately.

Brentford, who finally managed to hold on to one of those early leads.

As usual, Arsenal have a little scare, and as usual, they get over it while Liverpool win at Palace.

We could do a whole pod on injury time at Stamford Bridge.

A really fun game, some brilliant goalkeeping, a nice melee.

Very disappointed.

that James Ward Prouse didn't shout ball to hand as he went off.

There's a big win for West Ham, a smaller win for Leicester, and maybe a stay of execution for Eric Ten Hag.

We'll pay tribute to Lord Herman Ooesley, the founder of Kick It Out.

For all that, past your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, welcome.

Hi, Max.

And as we planned, because we thought Aston Villa Man United would be the game representing Aston Villa, Dan Bardell, welcome.

Hello, Max.

You were wrong.

It was boring.

Yeah, and representing Manchester United, Noradine Chowdhury.

Welcome, Nos.

I'm a a brighton fan now let's tell him a brighton fan okay yeah perfect that works uh so yeah let's start at the amex uh james says if only there were a word to describe that spurs performance and some sort of phrase we could all understand any suggestions i suppose barry we should start with brighton because this does feel huge to them at half-time i was really starting to worry well i wasn't i was delighted at half-time but but people may have been worried worrying for herzila and thinking they look as vulnerable as they did against chelsea suddenly this season could unravel this This high line is terrible.

And then they just turned it on its head.

They weren't terrible in the first half, but they started very badly.

And I think we got a quick indication of what was going to come.

We all knew what was going to come, but almost straight from the kickoff when Dominic Solanke played Tim O'Verner in behind the Brighton defence, and his cross was not good enough, so Brendan Johnson couldn't reach it.

Solanke seemed to be that seemed to be his role yesterday, sort of

a bit withdrawn and just pinging balls in behind the Brighton defence.

And it worked.

Spurs went 2-0 up and I thought that's it.

The game's over, you know, at half-time.

I wouldn't say I was worried on Fabian Herzler's behalf because he's done pretty well at Brighton so far and drawn a couple of games they probably should have won.

You put that down to a bit of bad luck.

But whatever he said to them at half-time, and he doesn't look like a man who has a rocket in him to to give or you know he's going to be throwing the crockery around in the traditional style but um whatever he said to them uh they really really upped their game in the second half and as soon as that first goal went in you kind of

yeah you could see what was coming and it wasn't entirely unexpected then that well when the second one went in then you absolutely knew what was coming and and bright and julie won the game yeah i suppose noz in the same way that everybody who isn't a Man United fan and who watched United in the 90s loves United being terrible, everyone who isn't a Tottenham fan must absolutely revel in games like this.

I mean, it was so...

It's the definition of Spursy, isn't it?

And I even saw Spurs fans using that term, which is always damning.

I felt so sorry for Ange afterwards.

And you can kind of say that's ridiculous because he's a manager and he's forged this this brand of spursiness but um i think i think the reason why he was so gutted is because because he felt that that the players had got it and they they'd uh the the the penny had finally dropped and the way he wanted to play was going to be start being successful and it's clearly not yet i know i know he's getting a lot of flack but

I think if you if you hire Bost Goglu, then you hire his sort of like values and the way he wants to play it.

And at the moment, I just think he's not got the players.

I don't necessarily mean that in terms of quality, although there is a bit of quality that's missing there, but they seem to have too many stupid players.

The football in IQ in that team is not good enough as a whole.

And

I don't know if this will upset Spurs fans or not, but I think Romero's overrated.

I've seen him linked to Real Madrid, and I don't get it because if you've got a player who looks really good for 75% of the time and bad for 25% of the time, that is not a good player.

I thought Udogi was bad.

Again,

having that low sort of IQ on the pitch.

And I think at the moment, they've got too many players that are too thick to do what he wants to do.

Dan, I mean, do you concur with that?

I mean, sort of footballing intelligence is interesting, isn't it?

And they've clearly got...

you know, they've clearly got some super players and some super smart players.

I just don't know what happened at half-time.

And I mean, I guess that's the point.

It just felt like Anne said said afterwards, they just actually, it wasn't necessarily a tactical thing.

It was like missing, you know, it was losing their duels.

It's sort of that classic, not wanting it as much as the opposition.

Not quite, obviously nowhere near as bad.

I was going to say not quite as bad, but nowhere near as bad as that Leicester game on the opening game of the season.

But it's almost like they take their foot off the pedal.

It's a mentality thing where they think the game is done.

They've done enough in the first half.

And against a team like Brighton, you've never done enough because they're going to keep going.

You know, if you talk of football intelligence, Brighton have got a great mix mix of players, but I would say that their team has that football intelligence, that tactical intelligence.

And Spurs are just the setup.

And look, I take it that you're going to have to play a certain way with Poster Coglu, and you're kind of wed to that.

But they've gone even further that way this season, I would say, in terms of the central midfield area, where you're playing with one holder.

And you've essentially got two number tens playing in midfield with him.

And when you're 2-0 up, you're going to get caught in moment.

At any point in the game, you're going to get caught in transition.

And completely agree with

Romero being overrated.

I think the same about Martinez at Manchester United.

I don't know whether it's a South American centre-half thing, but with the way they play with the fullbacks and the midfield and then the front three Spurs, you are leaving your two centre-backs isolated with a lot to do at certain points in the game.

And that's what happened against Brighton, who are a brilliant team when there's open space and space to be had.

They've got a lot of players that are good running into space and finding space.

And once Spurs concede one, unfortunately, they do slip back into that Spursy mentality and the rest is inevitable.

Talk about football again intelligence.

Like the eternal Danny Welbeck, Barry.

It's just, he's just a, he's a total.

I mean, he must have been playing forever now.

I sort of forgot he was at Arsenal for ages.

But, like, he's, he's so good.

What age is he?

Out of interest.

Danny Welbeck.

I think he's like 34.

That's my guess.

I'm going to go.

I'm going to go 32.

I suspect he's probably not as old as you'd think he is.

33.

33.

Okay.

Well, see?

He isn't.

He's 34 in November, so not far away.

Yeah,

he was a constant threat, and the goal he got, it wasn't as straightforward as he perhaps made it seem, because when Benton Kerr sort of wussed out of that challenge down by the byliner, maybe it wasn't cowardice, maybe he was just hoping the ball would run out of play, but Jorginho Reuter got the cross-up.

It was, you know, pretty quick between the ball leaving leaving his foot, and Welbeck had to react very quickly to steer that header on target.

Could easily have missed it or gone up, put it over the bar.

And

he's having a wonderful season.

Look, looks like he's having a lot of fun.

I'd say Brighton is probably a fun place to play your football.

It's a brilliant weekend for Manchester United's 2013 squad if you go through their squad list.

David DeGay has had a great game for Fiorentina.

Johnny Evans, man of the match against Villa.

Tom Cleverly has won for Watford.

Wayne Rooney's won for Plymouth and Danny Welbeck scored the winner against Spurs.

That Manchester United 2013 squad is finally coming good.

Welbeck said that Jorginho Rutaire, who I didn't watch a lot at Leeds, actually Nod, is nicknamed Giorginio Velcro because the ball sticks to his feet.

I don't know how we feel about this as a nickname.

A, because a football wouldn't stick to Velcro, right?

That was sort of an initial issue that I have with it.

And it doesn't, there's no sort of rhyme, is it?

You know, like it's like just calling him Jorginho Glue or, you know, Jorginho Prit stick.

Like, there's not,

I just don't feel that's how it should work.

I mean, nevertheless, very impressive player.

He is.

Um, one thing I'm fascinated by is,

I mean, I, I, uh, sometimes get into like wormholes on YouTube and and handball,

they the the way they cover the ball in glue

to the extent that it looks gross and and the hands stick to it.

That's a possible sort of analogy, but I mean, it's not as catchy.

I mean, calling him handball glue that sticks to your hands rutter.

Like, it doesn't.

So, hang on, if they stick the ball to their hand with glue,

then what happens when they try and shoot?

I know, I know.

But what happens is the glue becomes very, very dirty, and it actually looks incredibly gross.

But I'm assuming the dirt offsets the stickiness of the glue.

So, you just get a very tacky.

I suppose the word is tackiness.

Tacky Rutter.

That's a good nickname.

Tacky Rutter.

That's what we should call him.

You're absolutely right.

I've always thought goalkeepers in handball seems the most sort of pointless profession you could possibly have.

I've ever seen any of them make a save.

Of course, if Jorginho Rutter was a goalkeeper and not very good, they could call him Jorginho Butter.

They could, couldn't they?

Anyway, let's go to

Brentford Wolves.

I mean, as everyone else has joked, Brentford left it late opening the scoring.

Nathan Collins in the second minute.

I mean, it's a ludicrous record.

They also scored 32 seconds after another kickoff to put them 3-2 up.

It feels like this can't carry on, Dan.

And yet every part of me hopes that it does, perhaps forever.

Yeah,

such an intelligent...

football tender the way they operate behind the scenes so so so intelligent and you you could see i watched i did watch a bit of that game but live but i also watched match of the day and when they score you see thomas Frank going to the going to his analysts and going to the the little iPad and is it is it in the first minute was it was it in that that that first minute like so exciting and Thomas Frank is absolutely brilliant but that is just to do what they've done for that amount of games in a row it's it's staggering I think you know you you almost expect it as a as a wolves player you're almost worried in that first couple of minutes about what's going to happen and and lo and behold it does they're just the way they operate behind the scenes Brentford there's no other team really like them and i don't think there's another manager like thomas frank and i i think over the years they've been a brilliant brilliant addition to the premier league in kind of everything that they do brentford and i hope they can keep it up because it's really really entertaining yeah thomas frank said well that they didn't have kickoff and that's why it took so long um and uh producer joel suggests they need a coin toss coach gillingham in league two uh need one mark bonner their manager said midweek they've lost every coin toss so far at home in the league we'll do some coin toss practice with their captain uh because five out of five is horrific i mean they are top of the league or near enough so it's not haunting them too much i mean the biggest story here now is his wolves right gary o'neal said it was his worst game as a coach um and up until now i've maintained they're in a false position and watching that game i'm starting to wonder if they're in a true position Yeah, it's one of those teams where that sort of

very overused term of too good to go down in terms of like you look at the team.

They have got some very good players, but I think a point was made on match the day that they've they've lost sort of important players as well, um, Kilman, especially.

Uh, and yeah, um, it to me, it seems like a like a

team with talent with a talented manager, um, who we don't talk about enough, and basically they should sort it out.

But

I mean,

with Gary and Gary O'Neill, it does feel as if like he's

even in his interviews, he he feels as if his days are numbered.

Um, and I think he even said something like, if I

if I was the board, I wouldn't be happy with how I'm performing.

So, yeah,

it doesn't look good.

You're speaking to the wrong paper when you're saying we don't talk about Gary O'Neill enough.

Don't cross the streams, Dan.

Anyway, just in terms of Brentford, like, like, that scoring early thing, I just find it fascinating because you've got all these analysts and all these experts and all these teams.

And what is it that,

what, what is the tactical or sort of psychological thing where they're able to do that?

And it's the same with Arsenal's Arsenal sort of set pieces.

Presumably, all clubs have got all these experts, and

yet you get the perfect formula at a particular club that are able to do this.

And a part of me wonders now, is it just psychological?

If you're facing Brentford,

is it like the opposite of Fergusheim where it doesn't matter what the score was

against Manchester United at a particular vintage, you knew that there was going to be an avalanche, you knew there was going to be a red wave and United were were going to get a goal out of nothing.

And similar to that, now you've got

the equivalent of like Thomas Frank time at the beginning of the game.

I find it so interesting that

is it Brentford that are now making that happen or is it the opposition who are scared of it and therefore it does happen?

There was images of after the, I think it was the fourth goal Pinnock's header, the set piece coach Keith Andrews getting high fives and getting congratulated.

But that was the most basic set piece I've ever seen.

Pinnock was just completely on his own.

That wasn't anything to do with the training ground.

They should have been going.

There should have been a bit of blocking.

Yeah, there was some quite astute blockage going on.

I didn't know.

I didn't pick that up if that's the case.

Pinnock,

they just all just left him.

Should have been high-fiving the Wolves' defensive coach.

With regard to the first goal, I mean, that's a criminal goal for Wolves to concede because

everyone knows what Brentford are going to do from, you know, at that early stage in the game.

Sky Sports Monday Night Football, they did a forensic examination of how Brentford are scoring these early goals.

And lo and behold, the game kicks off.

Brentford win the ball and

get it out wide, get crossing, and Nathan Collins is completely unmarked in the Wolves penalty area.

You know, that is...

brutal.

And O'Neill said afterwards, it's the worst game I've ever been involved in in the coach.

Mario Lamina, who had an absolute mayor in this game, he said afterwards, if you say Gary O'Neill is the problem, then you are liars and cheaters,

which I thought was a little bit harsh.

He could say, if you say Gary O'Neill is the problem, you're wrong, but no, you're liars and cheaters.

He's questioning the integrity of anyone who says Gary O'Neill might not be

doing a brilliant job at Wolves.

You do wonder, you know, the obsession now with set piece coaches, and they clearly do, you know, make a difference, that it'll get to the stage where people whose set pieces aren't good will ring up and demand their set piece coaches fired.

And there'll be people, you know, yelling, Andrew's out if Brentford don't score from a set piece in, you know, in five games.

And an interesting point on Brentford's Nas is they're not missing Ivan Toney, right?

And I think, I don't know, was Whiser playing yesterday?

I know Wisa's been out for a bit or at the weekends.

So that is a really positive sign for them, isn't it?

Yeah, but again, it points to how good Thomas Frank Frank is as a manager in terms of like

if you if you manage a team like Brentford, you know that you're going to lose your, you're going to, you know, if you if you overperform each season, you're going to lose your best players, and that's what happens.

But he finds solutions every season, unlike certain other managers that we'll go on to talk about.

I did notice actually, with regard to Ivan Toney, when Brian Mbuemo took Brentford's penalty, he he very much took it in the Ivan Tony no-look style.

So I'm I'm not sure who's copying who there, but I think...

Can we credit the set pace, Coach?

If it was Keith Andrews, who he could strike a ball, surely it would just like hit this thing.

Barry, you didn't get many Ethan Pinnock texts.

Your mentions didn't light up.

Has this joke run its course?

Maybe, maybe.

I tend to get them when he has a a a terrible gaff or rick.

Right.

Not so much when he just scores with a pretty straightforward header.

Fair enough.

I mean, I mean, if it has run its course, you know, then at least we've got two or three more years of me stretching out before I finally admit defeat on these things.

I don't just final Gary O'Neill.

I mean, I don't know what you think, Dan.

It feels that he has, even though they finished the season badly, they started this one badly.

I feel like they shouldn't get rid of him.

Like, I think he is a good manager and he's done really well with them.

He did well at Bournemouth, and they would be sensible to keep him.

But I don't know if you agree.

Yeah, I do.

I think if you're blaming Gary O'Neill, you are a liar and a trick.

It can't be.

Wolves are suffering from this thing.

We've seen this before in the Premier League.

Southampton, Leicester, Villa.

If you continuously sell your best players, eventually you are going to find yourself in trouble.

And Wolves over the last two or three seasons have continuously sold their best players.

This summer, the difference is that they haven't massively reinvested or replaced some of those players.

Not replacing Kilman when they probably needed a centre-back anyway.

is negligible and that they've lost their best attacking threat in Pedro Neto as well to Chelsea.

So I almost look at Gary O'Neill and think, what's he supposed to do?

You know, the centre-back area is short and then Mascara has gone off injured against Villa and he's out for the season when they were already short.

They are going to concede goals.

They're not going to be as creative without Pedro Neto.

So it's no wonder that they're struggling.

But just Gary O'Neill,

he looks...

a beaten man, doesn't he?

He's taking responsibility, which I really, really admire.

And I don't think replacing him solves anything.

The biggest thing for me with Wolves is that I like Sam Johnston and I think he's he's a better goalkeeper than Jose Sarr.

But was that the biggest priority in that squad to spend that money on bringing in a new goalkeeper when Jose Sar is still there?

That money had to be spent on a centre-back and it wasn't.

And they're going to concede a lot of goals, which means they're going to be in trouble.

Yeah, I would say that I think even when you know Wolves are flying, Gary O'Neill sort of has the vibe of a beaten man, just sort of the whole time.

So actually, he might be totally fine.

Anyway, that'll do for part one.

Part two, we'll begin at the Etihad.

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Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Week.

I would think it's worth mentioning for the tape that there might be a slight echo on my recording because I'm sitting in a toilet.

Because I booked a two-bed apartment in Byron Bay for my holiday and we were given a one-bed apartment.

and this is the only place where I can record where Mrs.

Rushton and young Ian can have the run of the place.

Although if Mrs.

Rushton needs the toilet, I am sitting on it

and I should also say the swimming pool is just behind me.

So if you hear sort of splashing and japery behind me, that is what's happening.

Hugh says one-on-one with the goalkeeper, who out of Adama Triore and Timo Vernon is most likely to score or is scoring probability too low to register?

Yeah, Man City 3, Fulham 2.

And Adama Traore Nos was simultaneously unplayable and totally playable in this game.

He seemed to miss a great chance, I think, at 0-0, 1-0, and when they were 2-1 down.

He is the player that he is, and that means that he is going to be just like basically a Jonah Lomu running down a pitch

and then doesn't know what to do at the end of it.

I mean, even like, you could say sometimes players overthink or whatever.

Like, one of his misses was a...

Well, there was a bit of a Tim O'Verner miss where it was like a bit of a poacher's miss.

But yeah, I think

Fulham are good enough to

sort of accommodate

both his strengths and his weaknesses because they are such a good team.

And I've been so impressed with them this season.

And I'd say that's where they differ from, say, Spurs, because

Werner, as hard as he tries, and as good as he is in terms of beating his man, there's a case to be made that he damages Spurs a little bit and he could do with the rest.

Whereas Triore will always

impact Fulham in a positive way.

And of course,

he probably cost some points this game because he missed those chances.

But he always makes his own chances.

And I think that's the big thing.

I think

with Werner,

he can miss easy chances and chances he should score from.

But it's almost a philosophical point with Triore.

If he wasn't on the pitch, those chances would not exist that that that run through the whole team would would would not happen so he is what he is you take him as he is and uh and yeah he's just he's just great entertainment the difference between him and john lormu is john lormu once he got in behind had the entire width of the pitch and he couldn't miss like it was literally impossible to miss we just need to make the goals that wide i mean look triore has scored and set up a few this season the moment down when he beats carl walker for pace is amazing.

You know, I just wonder if Carl Walker woke up the next day, you know, we've all had that moment when we think maybe it's not for me anymore.

Because I don't think Carl Walker's ever experienced that from anyone.

Like he's kept Mbappe quiet, Walker.

And Triora just went, all right, mate.

It's the race we've all wanted to see.

And Adama Trioro came out on top.

It's just the brute force of him.

I'd argue Walker maybe is as quick.

as him but it's just that that physical aspect that you you don't know what to do as a defender obviously he's lathered up as well so you don't want to go don't want to go near him in case you slip and slide off him but yeah it's just he went past him like he like he almost wasn't there and this is one of the the best pacey defensive right backs that there is in the world like you say he kept Mbappe quiet Adama Troyore is just a complete enigma but I was watching all the games live at this at the same time working which I'm not actually very good at but every time I looked up Adama Troyore and Fulham were causing Manchester City huge, huge problems in that game, particularly in the first half.

And I think Fulham are a really, really good outfit.

And I don't think Marco Silver gets the credit that he deserves at all.

When we talk about teams coming up and the gap between the teams that are already in the Premier League and the teams that come up, Fulham have made such light work of coming up from the championship, have consistently stayed there.

I'd say they're going to be a top half team this season now.

And Marco Silva's just done a brilliant, brilliant job.

The tactical setup against Manchester City at the weekend was absolutely superb.

Probably eyebrows raised.

Smith Rowe not being in the team, but he firmed up that midfield to play against Manchester City by putting an extra man in there.

I think it was Sander Berger who was the extra man.

And they just took Manchester City on, went toe-to-toe with them in that first half and caused them so many problems on the break.

And so, so unfortunate not to

go in ahead for them.

They were so, so good.

It would be a dereliction of duty as well, not to mention the Raul Limene's back heel.

Oh, unbelievable.

Yeah, unbelievable.

To tee up, who who was it for the first goal?

Pereira.

Oh, Pereiriro.

It was so nice.

What a flick.

I mean, the thing is about that assist, right?

It is brilliant, but like, you can't be sure what you're doing there, right?

I know he knows he's back healing it into an area, but he's not saying.

I can't believe you're treating it like that Ronaldinho goal against him.

Dickie Need it.

It is worth mentioning that Man City won this game.

And actually, load to talk about Roderick.

Kovacic came in and scored two very Roderie-like goals.

And also worth mentioning, not only did City win, they did some time wasting there.

Obviously, they learned that two weeks ago from Mikel Arteta.

West Ham for Ipswich won.

Their first home win of the season.

Barry, are we seeing the first signs of free-flowing Lopategui ball?

I suppose we are, yeah.

It was a really good performance from them and an uncharacteristically poor one from Ipswich.

Ipswich have been playing quite well since they came up.

Haven't won a game yet, but they've got quite a few draws.

But they were blown away here.

Calvin Phillips, who had obviously that disastrous spell on loan at West Ham last season, went back to the London Stadium this time round and the first thing he did was give the ball away and cost his team a goal.

So it wasn't a happy return for him.

But it was pretty impressive from West Ham and you would say long overdue because they've been pretty dismal this season so far.

Yeah, I suppose Ipswich would say, look, Liam DeLap scored a great equal.

I like Liam DeLap.

Big thighs, big legs, big running.

There's a touch of the Grant Holtz about him, isn't there?

I think, I mean, I like Grant Holt.

He's a nice man, but I think that is generous to Grant Holt.

I thought it was very disrespectful from Barry in there, I guess.

Cryke.

He's quite big like Grant Holt.

I'm not saying Grant, I'd have to go through all of Grant Holt's greatest goals to see if he scored one like the one De Lap scored the other day when he ran past everyone and just put it in the top left-hand corner i think he's a brilliant player and then jacob greaves has that header and he misses that and we had actually talks about muric and goal for ipswitch nos being a bit of a liability and he's had some good games but yes he didn't have a great one here i mean the back pass he was given for

was it the uh the the The Boeing goal?

I mean, it was absolutely hilarious.

It was like, don't do that.

Of all the keepers, you should know that's not how to play it back to him.

No, no.

It wasn't.

He obviously brings other things to the team that McKenna likes, but

I really want him to do well.

I find myself really rooting for them.

I don't know if it's the McKenna United link, but yeah,

there is things that I really like about the way they play.

And like you, I'm a big fan of Delap.

Delap,

in a strange way, obviously he's not as fast, but similar to Traori and what Dan was saying, there's something about a player who's not just fast.

but is running with that power where people bounce off them.

And I think Delap's got de la got that ability to to to run past two or three players and and they bounce off him and and and and score he's um

he's he he's in that sense he's jonah lomu but but more concentrated right okay denser yeah yeah just compacted right okay right i understand not like concentrated like a human has been like taken all of lomu's force but sort of like concentrated

made from concentrate that's what he is uh kieran mckenna dan said uh west ham are the first team we faced with that style a lot of direct balls to antonio a lot of balls to suce and we didn't deal with those well enough and made poor mistakes for the goals that made the game difficult to call the momentum away from us this feels to me dan like a this is what every efl manager does when they lose a game they say we know how stevenage or whoever play they like to knock it long as if like it's okay to lose to a team who are direct i mean in this case also

actually i don't think west ham were that direct chiro picked that apart a bit on match of the day but it's just one of those, it's a really easy thing to say to make you sort of feel a bit better about yourself.

I mean, yeah, West Ham have just got a big centre forward that you can sometimes go direct to.

I watched that game, that was my game at work, and it was a close game in the first half, and there was a lot of good from Ipswich.

The way they manipulated the ball, and every time it would end up with Leif Davis on the left in space, I think Ipswich had got a couple of potential future England players there in Leif Davis and Liam DeLap.

I was really, really impressed with them.

I've watched a fair bit of Ipswich this season, and I've seen a lot of things that I like, like Nas alluded to.

That's the first game where I felt Ipswich don't really have a positive to take away from it.

I think the other games that there's been something tangible and positive to take away from it.

That one, they did that thing that teams that come up sometimes do, is that they've not learnt to not let a game get away from them.

And they let that game get away from them very, very quickly.

And they just need that first win, don't they?

Ipswich.

I've seen a lot that I like from them I think they're the best equipped to stay up out the out of the three that have come up but they they just need to get that that that first win I think they'll be all right because I think they bought really well as well they've got some exciting players a good mix of players it's which will be okay but that was a game that they they really let go too far I don't get the sense from Ipswich that do you know you get some some managers at the bottom of the table who are going to play their way and and sort of results be damned in a sense and and and it almost becomes a question of whether they're playing for their own reputation.

And even if the club goes down, they have maintained this sort of idealised way of they want to play.

And I think that's been something that company's been accused of in that he didn't change for

he almost put his, well, he's been accused of putting his own sort of aspirations above Burnley actually staying off.

I don't get the sense that that's the case with McKenna.

No, I completely agree with that from what I can see.

I'm not even saying it's something that they've changed through the season so far.

I think from from what I can see, Ipswich have changed an awful lot from what they did in the championship already.

They've gone into the season, having made changes that the manager felt he needed to make for Ipswich to make some sort of success of this season.

Out of all the newly promoted managers,

actually, no, basically, I'm just comparing Southampton and Ipswich here.

He is sacrificing some of his own beliefs and putting the football club first.

I would say I think that's clear if anyone who's watched Ipswich this season, that's definitely clear.

We can move on to Southampton.

We lost 3-1 at Arsenal.

They took the lead.

Cameron Archer scoring after 55 minutes.

Didn't hold it for long enough, really.

Have it scoring Martinelli and Saka.

So Arsenal maintained their unbeaten start to the season, five wins and two draws.

Arteta said after the game, this team finds a way.

That's what happened, Barry, isn't it?

Again, we sort of talked about this, that they don't win necessarily totally comfortably, even though they're kind of comfortable.

And it felt like that game.

I think this was pretty comfortable.

The goal that Southampton took the lead with was very much against the run of play.

I think Arsenal had had four or five shots, half chances up before that.

And then maybe if Southampton had been able to hold on to their lead for a little longer,

Arsenal might have had a bit of a panic.

You don't know, but they won it pretty comfortably in the end.

It was back-to-back 3-1 defeats for Southampton.

Russell Martin was very angry after the Bormas won on Monday.

He seemed quite pleased with his team's performance here.

Tyler Dibling looks a good prospect for Southampton.

I've been very impressed with what little I've seen of him so far this season.

And yeah, it's hard to see where the wins are going to come from for Southampton, I have to say, but it was pretty comfortable for Arsenal.

Saka, he is good.

I mean, that's not...

you know, that's not the searing insight people come to this.

Maybe it is for this pod, but he was, I don't know, is he getting better, Nas.

It's hard to say, isn't it?

So consistent, so talented.

and just yeah just like amazingly skillful but with the consistency that most amazingly skillful players don't have yeah i i actually do think he's getting better and and you see that you you see this with the best players that where

when they first come onto the scene um they individually look brilliant and and and and obviously we when you think of saka and when you when you imagine him playing you you see him beating players and uh

and and and and getting across and everything but like he's he i think he's developing into more of a playmaker as well, and I think uh that's really exciting to see.

And also, it's the way he plays, but also I think he's more and more becoming like a real salisman for Arsenal in terms of um, you've got Odigad out and you need people to step up.

And Trossa has done that, and Saka's done that.

And I really think with Saka, like he, he's he's a player that that essentially, if he fulfills, if he keeps on getting better and fulfills his potential, not only will he be truly world class and like Ballon d'Or level, but like Arsenal.

I mean, Arsenal, a great team with a great manager already, but like he is the kind of player who, even in a great, great team, makes a difference and makes you title challenges and makes you win things.

He's just so, so good.

And I agree, it's a weird thing to say about Saka because he's so rated, but I think you can sometimes have players who are very, very highly rated and still underrated because there's so much more to his game.

Has he ever had a lull since he got into the Arsenal team?

I don't remember him ever going through a sticky patch for Arsenal.

Like, we talk about consistency, but a young player at some point would usually have a drop in four in five or six games where people ask questions of him.

I don't remember that ever happening with Zakar.

I could be remembering wrong, but he's just super consistent.

Yeah, and actually, the thing that is talked about is just how many games he plays.

And actually, his consistency and the fact that Arsenal winning has meant that they can afford for Martinelli to kind of find a bit of form, which is starting to happen.

Because he started the season not brilliantly, but has now scored a couple.

I think just on Dan's point, like, I don't don't think he's had a major lull in terms of he's been playing badly, but he's had to deal with

different challenges.

So, you've had teams doubling up on him, and he's kind of had to navigate that and deal with that and work out how to deal with that.

He has been, there was, I think it's calming down now, but he's had periods when he's been kicked around so much.

Um, and he essentially seems to try to bully him out of games, and he's navigated that, he's dealt with that.

He was also racially abused online after that, Exactly.

First Euros final.

Yeah, he's had to deal with, even in the last week, he's had to deal with

Connor McGregor sort of conducting some strange kind of horseplay with him on the pitch.

I don't know if you saw that.

No.

I think it was after a game and

Connor McGregor was doing this weird thing where he was play fighting with him and

pretending to kick him and things.

And it was like,

do not get him injured.

But yeah, so basically,

if you can deal with Connor McGregor horsing about,

then you're a special player.

Who was that cartoon catcher going, stick him up, stick him up, you?

Yeah,

it was exactly that.

It was like a class bullet

sort of play fighting with the popular kid.

And it's like, just leave him alone.

Take your bad vibes elsewhere.

Let's go to South Bridge.

Chelsea won, Forest one.

I mean, this game built up to a real climax.

The 13 minutes of injury time, Barry, were just ludicrous.

I mean, it just felt like Matt Sells was doing these amazing things and Robert Sanchez.

and it's just going end to end and you were like how this is just absolutely brilliant.

Yeah terrifically entertaining and sadly the game that wasn't on TV in the UK in that particular time slot you had a melee

James Ward Prouse was sent off in quite comical circumstances for just falling over and grabbing the ball to prevent Nicholas Jackson getting away from him.

Sells with a brilliant double save.

then another from Cole Palmer, who actually had a quiet game by his standards.

Possibly the highlight for him was when the melee broke out, he was already on a yellow card, so he just sat down on the pitch and watched as a

mildly curious bystander, like the rest of us.

Sells had that other save from a Christopher and Kunku header.

Mal Augustu shot at him.

And then right at the end, Jota Silva had a header brilliantly saved by Sanchez so it was really entertaining a draw is probably fair and both teams will probably think they should have won and Dan Forrest deserves so much credit I mean not just because me and Barry both relegated them which is just looking increasingly stupid in our preseason previews but just they they they seem quite fit tactically brilliantly set up but quite fearless when they go into games like this There is vibes of Nuno's wolves there.

They've definitely firmed up defensively, this season.

Maybe Nuno lost some credit for how good a manager he was in the time at the brief time at Tottenham.

But you forget he got Wolves to seventh twice.

So he's obviously

not a bad manager at all.

And Forest have, I didn't have them to go down, but I didn't think they'd be doing as well as they've done.

They've picked up some fantastic results, putting some really good performances.

I'm really pleased for them.

Just as a club, it feels like they've calmed down a little bit the first few years in the Premier League.

Very, very chaotic.

A lot going on.

It feels like they've calmed down now, so probably they'll go absolutely nuts in January, and the owner will insist on buying 20, 25 players.

But yeah, really pleased them because they're a magnificent club and they're a brilliant fan base as well, the Farby's fan base.

Yeah, I mean, that melee was it was Nico Williams, it was a bit rude.

Like, like that push on Coca-Cola, funny, but also, I don't know, on the a bit naughty level, I would suggest

like a domino into a bowling ball into Maresca.

But yes, I mean, scenes we like to see.

Yes, Norz.

Just on the, I was slightly surprised at the reception of the Ward Prouse thing, just because obviously, like, it was just funny.

It was funny, but I think,

I don't think he's getting enough credit for actually

preventing a goal.

Like,

I do think on the sort of comical

dark arts sort of spectrum,

I do think it was actually a very intelligent and sort of self-sacrificing moment.

And

it was just a bit surprising to see, like,

a lot of the reception on social media was like, oh, look, look at this dummy, look at this idea, what is he doing?

He's lost his mind.

And he was actually a very intelligent foul, I thought.

Yeah, and actually, he's got the presence of mind to go,

I'm on a yellow, there's 13 minutes left.

I trust my team to hold it for 13 minutes, and you've got to do that in.

quite a short amount of time.

Or he just went, oh, bugger, and caught it.

I mean, who knows?

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

All right, that'll do for part two.

Part three, we'll begin at Villa Park.

Hi, Pod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly then.

So then Aston Villa 0, Manchester United 0.

Dan, you were at this game and it was quite shit.

Such a come down from the jubilation and the ecstasy of Wednesday in the Champions League against Bayern Munich.

I hate this game with a passion.

It's the only game I never look forward to because whatever Villa are doing, whatever Manchester United are doing at the time, Villa just cannot beat them.

We've beat, I say we cannot beat them, we beat them twice in my time as a season ticket holder at Villa Park and I've had a season ticket for 31 seasons now.

We just can't do it 1995 and 2022 in Emory's first game.

And I just felt Villa didn't really lay a glove on Manchester United.

When I saw Johnny Evans and Harry Maguire lining up at centre-back against Watkins and Rogers.

I was licking my lips thinking, oh, come on, this could be absolutely brilliant.

We chose to attack the halt end in the first half, which we don't always do.

And I thought, right, we're going to go at them here.

But it just never really materialised.

And that's the bit that's disappointing for me is that Villa, I felt like we held back.

We didn't really lay a glove on them and go at them.

And for the level Villa are at and the level they want to be, and for the level Manchester United are at now, I can't help but feel like it's two two points drop for Villa.

Norz, um, from a Manchester United perspective, Barry and I were on air when the Man United team was announced, and sort of the internet exploded with Eric Ten Hag's decision.

Did you explode?

Don't think I exploded.

I think there was a little puff of exasperation just because I don't know what to say about Ten Hag anymore.

First of all, we were so lucky that Villa didn't turn up, and in fact, Villa were terrible.

I was so disappointed in them, and

you can kind of forgive it because of

the amazing result midweek, but that was shocking.

Like,

Dan spoke about the record.

I wonder whether there was a level of sort of undue inferiority complex where United were there for to take him.

And

Villa just didn't have the belief to do that and played really, really badly.

The thing with Ten Haag is you can feel sorry for him.

You can feel sorry for any manager who's struggling, but

I don't know what he's trying to do to save his job because as far as I can see at the moment, he is literally just trying to survive.

And in a strange way, he's putting that survival above the team because a draw is not good enough.

And

with the amount of points that United have already dropped,

a draw does nothing.

So

all that team did, where he kind of like made the team really concentrated, had like Maguire and Evans in defence who are probably the best at like box defending in in terms of the defenders that united have got it was it was the football equivalent of organizing a fight after school and then immediately just falling to the floor and curling up like it was it was literally just survival and

and and and if if there's one thing that that ten hag has shown it's that in in one-off games he finds a way to survive and and not let the better team

land a glove and is is that what manchester united are now like a woodlouse they're just a they're just one big big woodlouse.

Exactly.

And it's this thing.

And I think I've said it before with Ten Haag, is you can give reasons for Ten Haag not succeeding at Manchester United because United are such a joke of a club.

And at every level, there's been incompetence.

However,

there's never a reason.

He doesn't give a reason to keep him.

He doesn't give a reason.

He doesn't even give like an inkling of like, well, this is the plan.

And he says things.

He says all the right things.

So he'll say things like, we need to stick to the plan.

We need to, we're a team in transition.

We need to trust the process.

Where is the process?

Where is the plan?

Like, what are you transitioning to?

You can only have a transitional period or a transitional season if

people can see what you're trying to transition to.

And

what he did in midweek, where he Rashford was the one player that was looking excited and he took him off to arrest him, the way this this team that he picked had all the players that he'd signed on

the bench, and the best players were players that that were already there or he'd brought back to train with the under

under 21s in evans it's it's almost as if he's trying to prove that that it's it's over and and there is nothing because because you had like the grand council of of the united board and and and sir alex ferguson at the game they don't want to sack him they're probably thinking like give us something give us some uh reason to keep you and he's given he's given no reason even even the accomplishment of getting a result when United are in such dire form it's been done purely to purely to get that result on that day and and and there's no there's no sort of like pattern or there's no sort of like

sign that United can United are doing something that that's gonna improve the team longer term it's purely to survive and and it's and the the way the way Ten Hag talks he talks as if he's post-cogli where where he's he's gonna stick to his principles and he's developing this team that's playing beautiful football and he's not even doing that it's it's pure survival and it makes no sense and and it's if this is a wrong if this was a wrong comment and you were like a sassy best friend you'd be you'd be saying dump him because he's giving you no reason to stay with him he's you you you can't say that oh you've had you've had bad relationships in the past and they're not they've not ended well so therefore you've got to stick to this one because you just have to

there's not enough reason to stay with him producer joel notes that you began that answer with i don't know what to say about Ten Hag anymore.

And actually, I felt like that answer was longer than it took for that poor guy to replace Rob Jones' mic pack.

Brentford could have got a hat-trick in that.

But I enjoyed it nonetheless.

To Selha's part, Palace Nil Liverpool one.

Barry, Talk us through your big thoughts on this one.

I don't really have any big thoughts on this one.

I think Liverpool were very worthy winners, but they only won by a solitary goal.

And

Palace had quite a few chances.

Matte had a shot saved.

Eze had a shot saved.

La Croix had a header saved by Alison,

who is now injured, so he'll be out for seven or eight weeks.

He went off with a Hammy.

Liverpool brought on Vytoslav Yaros

in the absence of the sick or ill Keevine Kelleher.

I had never heard of him before.

He made a save towards the end of the game from Ebericies,

who sort of shot straight at him when he should have found one of the corners.

So Liverpool won.

Once again, they weren't brilliant.

And

I suppose we'll see what they're made of after the international break when they pace Chelsea and Arsenal.

They'll be the stiffest test they've faced so far this season.

Dan, if you could do the same for Leicester Bournemouth, Leicester's first win of the season.

Wonderful goal from Buena Notte,

who is really good and is a Brighton player.

Brilliant, brilliant finish and a huge win for Leicester.

They needed that, but Steve Cooper needed that as well.

I've seen a few positive things from Leicester when I've seen them play.

They've been a bit more competitive in games than I expected them to be, but the problem is that Cooper, I don't feel like he's ever ever going to be accepted.

He's always going to be one result away from the Leicester fans

calling for his head.

And it's unfair because he's a brilliant manager.

He just happens to have managed their East Midlands rivals previously.

And they've got a chance of staying up under Cooper, but home form will be massive.

But getting that, like I said, Epswich just needs to get that first win from somewhere.

Leicester getting that first win is massive for them.

I just thought Leicester were incredibly lucky to win this game.

Bourbon were way better than him.

And sorry, one thing from Palace Liverpool.

Palace should have had a penalty.

Mark Gay had his arm tugged by Virgil van Dijk.

And I'm hearing all sorts of nonsense about it wasn't enough of a tug back.

But Virgil van Dijk had a hold of both hands holding his arm, preventing him from getting to where he wanted to be.

That should have been a penalty.

Not perhaps the stonewall as James Tarkovsky on Sandro Tenale, which was highly entertaining and seems like a slightly odd choice of thing to do when you're in the box.

But

I'm not saying that all analysis of football is nonsense, Knolls, but it's funny how much we and everyone else wanged on about Anthony Gordon's penalty process last week as a thing to talk about, as a thing to say, look, we know the game, we understand this, we watch this, we see things, and we're all there watching him over his process and then he took a really bad penalty and Jordan Pickford saved it.

And not only did Anthony Gordon look silly, we all looked silly.

He's made us all look silly.

It was glorious.

I loved everything about that.

I think if you want anything, like people talk about an advert for the Premier League, if you want anything to advertise the Premier League, it was that.

It was the pull down, the WWE move that caused the penalty.

It was Anthony Gordon sort of like, it felt as if like...

it was even more exaggerated.

It felt as if like he'd taken even longer to compose himself.

And

everyone's talking about this Anthony Gordon process, and

it was beautiful.

And the thing that made it even more beautiful is, in a lot of ways, the Anthony Gordon process is a very, very LinkedIn thing.

Like,

you can imagine

the mini essays that people have put on LinkedIn about

how Anthony Gordon's process translates into middle management.

And

he was faced with possibly the most LinkedIn goalkeeper in the league.

And

to the extent that

what I loved the most,

it wasn't the fact that

you had this like key own sort of Van Nistelroy situation afterwards.

It was the fact that Anthony Gordon took ages.

His penalty was awful.

And

Pickford saved it with his knees, got up and started pointing to his head.

I'm like, that's mentality.

And it's like,

what's the sort of optimum like high-performance thing about the fact that you just sort of fell to your side and it hit you on the knee?

Like, like,

did you somehow sort of psych him out by just being there?

I loved it.

I'd like to think Jordan Pickford's process was just better than Anthony Gordon's.

But there was no greater admirer of Jordan Pickford than I after his days in that terrible, terrible Sunderland team as a teenager trying to make his way in the game.

But I suspect of all the footballers in the Premier League, if you're looking

process going on inside their head, there's nothing going on in Jordan Pickford's head.

I think it's what makes him good.

There is literally nothing going on in there.

I think there's too much going on in there.

That isn't actually a madman, Jordan Pickford.

But I don't have him as a LinkedIn, I don't have him as the most LinkedIn goalkeeper.

I don't know who that is.

Perhaps he's not the type to sort of formulate like a long post about,

I don't know, how his gels back here gives him that 1% extra.

It's more a case of like, he's got so much self-belief.

And if there's one keeper, possibly in World Football, that is forged out of his own sort of

self-confidence and thinking he's the best, it's Pickford.

He almost sort of self-actualizes the fact that he is a good keeper.

I'd throw Martinez into that mix as well.

Definitively, no one would argue that he is good.

I think people would are, argue.

Not me, but I think people would argue against Pickford.

If we're talking about social platforms, I say Martinez is more like muscarer, Twitter.

He's more X.com in the sense that he likes to wind people up.

Right, you're right.

That's good.

Lots of tributes have been made to Lord Herman Oohsley, the guy who founded Kick It Out, passed away at the age of 79.

Troy Townsend wrote a brilliant piece in the paper, which you should dig out if you haven't seen it.

He said, I'm not sure what perfection looks like in a person, but I learned so much from my friend and colleague.

I learned how to conduct myself publicly and privately.

I learned how to speak in certain rooms.

I learned how to control my anger.

I learned how to have certain conversations, even when I suspect the people at the other side of the table are not listening to a word I'm saying and resisting the urge to roll their eyes.

Those are just some of the things I learned from him, and they're very strong and powerful qualities for any individual to be blessed with and able to pass on.

He had that much of an impact and that much of an influence on me.

Most people knew him as Lord Oozley because that was his official title, but I was privileged and honored enough to know him just as Herman.

Troy also made the point, Barry, that there was nothing official

to celebrate his life or just to, you know, there was no send-off for him on Saturday.

Yeah, there was no minute silence, there was no minutes' applause, there was no black armbands, and I think Troy was quite angry about that.

There is talk there might be some tribute to him at the England game, which, if that was already planned, might now just look like an afterthought.

And I really hope there's

no sinister reason this, what I would say is a glaring omission to pay tribute to him.

Over the weekend just past, Herman Owsley did so much to improve the lot of black footballers and other people who are discriminated against more recently

through Kick It Out, which was originally just sort of set up as a campaign group and then became a charity.

And Troy obviously did a lot of work for them.

Work he continues to do independently since leaving the organisation.

Yeah, it was odd.

I hope there...

Like, it looks even best case scenario is that people just forgot to organise something.

And that is really bad.

Well, it's telling that.

actually isn't it i think yeah i mean i mean it's interesting what you said about troy talking about how one of the things he learned from Herman Owsley was controlling his anger

because I heard Troy talking

to you and Barry yesterday, and he did an incredible job of staying composed where he was clearly furious about

the lack of acknowledgement of his friend and his mentor and such a giant in the game.

And again, one of the things that Troy said,

which was really interesting, was he says quite often

in those rooms,

you have to be the person who makes the atmosphere uncomfortable.

You have to be the person who has to ask the awkward questions.

And unfortunately,

in organisations and sort of associations, it's often the people who are quiet and just pacify

that get ahead and are respected.

Whereas the most important people are the people who are passionate about what they believe and say something about it.

And

so you'd hope that it was just an oversight, but even the oversight is telling because

I wonder

how many black people or people of colour are in the upper echelons of the game that could have just thought of it.

And the fact that no one thought of it

points to a lack of representation at the high levels and that's telling itself.

Yeah.

And actually, I think something else that Troy said was that, you know, when

Lord usi started this nobody was talking about it right and and so so even though as i think we've talked about before nos about racism being cyclical you sort of you sort of think it's just gonna it's bad and it'll get better and better and better and that just isn't the case the fact that he was there when no one was talking about it i think 19 of the 92 were like no there's no problem here we don't need to join this thing like you you sort of think that is amazing to not even think you should just join it like out of well it's probably the right thing to do even if we don't agree with it like mad to just go nah there's no problem here even just on a cynical level just on a pure pr level just have the sense to mark it and and and and and it's just it's just needless and it's massively disrespectful and and and again like you're saying all it proves is is the fight is never over so you always need that person who is is pushing against them and and and and is giving a voice to minorities because the essentially the job is never done so obviously our thoughts uh with Lord Uzi's friends and his family.

And that'll do for today.

Thank you, everybody.

Thank you, Barry.

Thanks.

Cheers, Dan.

Thank you, Max.

Thank you, Norz.

Thank you.

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