Late agony for Arsenal at Manchester City – Football Weekly podcast

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Speaker 11 Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. We'll do the first hour trying to unpick everything from the Etihad, Arsenal's heroic defending, the agony of conceding so late.

Speaker 11 Why can't we just have kicking the ball away consistency? Kyle Walker's, I've got this, lads, and letting Gabrielle score again. Califory's brilliant strike.

Speaker 11 While Kyle Walker's chatting to the ref, Harland hitting the target twice, one of the targets being Gabrielle's head. A fascinating and brilliant game.

Speaker 11 In the final five minutes, we'll wrap up the rest. West Ham's non-existent defending, a good turnaround for Villa, some more impressive slot ball, a vital win for Ange.

Speaker 11 Fulham bursting Newcastle's bubble, a solid point for Forrest at Brighton. Everton giving away another leads.

Speaker 11 Man United playing well and not winning, and a ref saying hello to a football in Southampton. All that plus your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.
Weekly.

Speaker 11 On the panel today, Barry Glen Denning. Good morning.

Speaker 1 Hi, Max.

Speaker 11 Hello, Will Unwin.

Speaker 4 Hello, Max.

Speaker 11 And welcome, Seb Hutchinson.

Speaker 1 Hello.

Speaker 11 Football Down Under says, How disappointing is it that there are no major talking points after the weekend's fixtures? Matt says, did Man City Arsenal outperform the XX that we discovered last week?

Speaker 11 And Daniel said, we'd appreciate a good 10-minute bit on why Arsenal's performance and result was not impressive. It might be hard to do.

Speaker 11 Look, Will, you were at this game in your capacity as a Man City fan. Seb, you were there in your capacity as a commentator.

Speaker 11 I mean,

Speaker 11 it was a brilliant game, I thought, Seb.

Speaker 1 Yeah, of course it was. I mean,

Speaker 1 you think of this fixture last season, the goalless draw, which was, as people say, one for the purists and one for the statisticians and data analysts. But this was the complete opposite.

Speaker 1 I was commentating on the game from a data perspective, but I have to say, I wasn't really concentrating on that for too much of the match.

Speaker 1 Even the second half, it was because of what's at stake, it was so engrossing.

Speaker 1 In any other situation, you would say that was quite a dull second half from a lot of the ways you could look at football.

Speaker 1 But because of what Arsenal was so close to achieving, the fact that

Speaker 1 what had gone on in the first half, the antics on the touchline and on the pitch, and it was everything we wanted.

Speaker 1 And we always say, we have to say as commentators, we don't want to see that we don't want to see this but we want to see all of it really and that's the disclaimer and i think going forward i'm just going to say unless it's something particularly violent or outrageous and none of it anything yeah from yesterday was i'm just going to say i love to see this yeah from the from the start will when you know um habits piles into rodri like literally after five seconds to the last thing where harlan throws the ball at gabriel's head yeah i just and and and and seb's right the second half was like Arsenal slowing it down, but they, I just felt so sorry for them.

Speaker 11 There was a whole team of Sammy Kaffirs at the end just lying on the floor, beating the turf.

Speaker 4 Yeah, all those people who like to remind the world that Michael Arteta worked under Pep Guardiola all forget that he started many years ago with David Moyes at Everton.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And he picked up a thing or two there, it turns out. Don't have much sympathy for Arsenal, funnily enough.
It was incredible what they did.

Speaker 4 You know, that back five, four midfielders, absolutely no interest in taking the ball forward?

Speaker 4 But then, thanks to their corner goal in the first half, City kept the centre-backs on because they were worried that on the off-chance they get one, they'll probably score.

Speaker 4 So, when City were attacking and the ball was going side to side, you know, every few seconds, you know, as they became the first team to get more than 100% possession in a half, it always seemed like a set a centre-back was the spare man trying to take a shot.

Speaker 4 And everyone thinking, no, maybe it should be someone else. Oh, yeah, a little bit of disappointment with City probably needed someone that that could take on a man or something like that.

Speaker 4 A bit different. It was all quite samey and Arsenal did incredibly well.
As a fan, very frustrating to watch the glorious shit housery of going down with cramp every few seconds.

Speaker 4 I think some of the Arsenal subs went down with cramp just to slow things down as well.

Speaker 4 But I think from an Arsenal perspective, when they haven't got Odegaard, you know, they fell short last season. Shithousery is an absolutely incredible thing to have up your sleeve.

Speaker 4 And I'll learn from yesterday that it fell a bit short and they're a draw as a fair result, I'd say. City felt like a win in the end, and it'll be good for that.
And Arsenal will have to bounce back.

Speaker 4 And they've got Leicester at home next week after Bolter in the League Cup in midweek, so they probably won't be too worried.

Speaker 4 But yeah, it's a big milestone for City. I know City last season really enjoyed the fact that Arsenal turned up the Attihad and didn't want to play.
They thought, you know, that was

Speaker 4 mentally a victory for City, they all felt. And obviously, you've seen some of the quotes come out after the match from Bernardo, Silva, and Stone, sort of criticising Arsenal's play.

Speaker 4 But, you know, you've got to expect that in the top flight. This is what's going to happen.
And City dug deep to show why they win leagues. And Arsenal dug equally deep and just fell short.

Speaker 4 And I think it shows up to be a cracking title race.

Speaker 11 I mean, the second half stats, Barry, are ridiculous, aren't they? Man City had 28 shots to one. Arsenal had 12.5%

Speaker 11 possession in the second half.

Speaker 11 XG, only 1.56 for City to 0.06.

Speaker 11 But so it was, it was sort sort of the second half was, and we'll get to the first, obviously, the second half was simultaneously shit and brilliant, I thought.

Speaker 1 I really enjoyed it, despite the contention of quite a few people, including many Arsenal fans, that the referee ruined it as a spectacle, ruined the game as a spectacle by sending Leandro Trossard off.

Speaker 1 But, you know, the sending off of Leandro Trossard was part of the spectacle. And what happened after he was sent off was also part of the spectacle.
You know, the spectacle is is the whole game.

Speaker 1 And I really enjoyed the spectacle because

Speaker 1 I enjoyed watching Arsenal put on this almost perfect masterclass of defending. And I enjoyed watching a Manchester City side that looked uncharacteristically bereft of ideas of how to get past this.

Speaker 1 barricade that was in front of them this i think was it a 6-3 or a 5-4

Speaker 1 the two lines very compact

Speaker 1 uh they couldn't get around them, they couldn't get through them. They really missed Kevin De Bruyne.
I think that's that's a situation where he'd probably have come into his zone. So

Speaker 1 while it probably wasn't a free-flowing, swashbuckling second half we might have expected if both sides had their full complement of players,

Speaker 1 I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 1 You don't often see City just reduced to taking pot shots like that. You know, I think Ruben Diaz had four, Varleo,

Speaker 1 Phil Foden. And it was only when Phil Foden was shaping to shoot that Arsenal looked in any way panicked.

Speaker 1 So Kyle Walker, he had a couple of pot shots as well, but none of them ever really looked like scoring until they scored.

Speaker 11 All right, lots of talking points. Let's start with the red card.
He's on a booking, Leandro Trossard said. It's right on halftime.
He barges into Bernardo, then he kicks it away.

Speaker 11 I still think the booking might be for the challenge, but

Speaker 11 it is dumb from Trossard.

Speaker 11 and i think arsenal fans even agree that it's dumb from trossard but they are annoyed by the inconsistency and i wonder if they have a point docu kicks the ball away not as far sobers like last week for liverpool and they're all sending these clips out pinged one across the goal when the whistle had gone there was jowl pedro for brighten out the emirates hammering the ball miles Do you think they have a point?

Speaker 1 When a player kicks the ball away, because we saw it actually in the lead-up to Arsenal's equaliser, that Bernardo Silvers did the same thing as in the ball was put down and he sort of dribbled it away.

Speaker 1 And that's going to be a problem all season now: is how much do we

Speaker 1 where's the cut-off point? I mean, it's back to the handball debate, really. It's that whole thing again.
There's no clear line on what it means.

Speaker 1 We, weirdly, I think we found it clearer last season and the season many seasons before where we knew if a player boots the ball away a bit like João Pedro did, and and unfortunately the way that Trossard did yesterday, those are quite clear ones.

Speaker 1 The Declan Rice one, to me, is still not as clear as Trossard's yesterday. And I think that's probably got the pot boiling a little bit more than anything else.

Speaker 1 But it's impossible when we get to these situations because every supporter now, and well, particularly Arsenal supporters, are going to be analysing every single incident of this.

Speaker 1 And so they probably will, at some point in the season, have to

Speaker 1 address it a bit more openly, I think, because...

Speaker 1 They will say on this particular situation, the referee was right.

Speaker 1 I could hear, I have VAR in my ear, and I heard.

Speaker 11 Not all the time, I hope. Not all day, every day.

Speaker 1 Okay, good. No, not consistently.

Speaker 1 Every time they communicate with the referee on the field, I hear that.

Speaker 1 And yesterday, initially, the belief was it was for the foul, but it's clarified very shortly, quickly afterwards that it was for him kicking the ball away.

Speaker 1 And you can see that Mark Oliver gives the free kick and probably thinks there's a debate about that being yellow card in itself, but then him kicking away confirms it.

Speaker 1 I don't think there's too much argument about it, but it is, of course, built on what's happened before. And so the frustration is understandable.

Speaker 1 And I think Arsenal's second half, the way they played, is then understandable.

Speaker 11 And there's another point, part to this, that in the same game last year, Kovacic didn't get a second yellow because the head of the PGMOL said he didn't want to change the game, which seems ridiculous, Will.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, I remember that. I was on holiday in the Alcove.

Speaker 1 It was lovely.

Speaker 4 I was the only man watching it in the bar. But yeah, confidential it should have been sent off for that.
It was,

Speaker 4 if it's a booking, it's a booking. It doesn't matter if it changes how it changes the game, whatever, first minute, last minute.

Speaker 4 You know, I went to Liverpool on Saturday and Ryan Christie got booked after 20 seconds. I mean, if it's a booking, do it.

Speaker 4 And I think, you know, bizarre to even come out with that, Howard Webb, to back.

Speaker 4 It was Michael Over again, wasn't it? Trossard should have gone. It was a silly thing to do.
They've had evidence of what happens when you do that recently.

Speaker 4 And I'm sure I'll look forward to receiving hundreds of clips of people kicking the ball away and not getting booked. But yeah, letter of the law, he goes.
And that's the nature of elite football.

Speaker 4 You should know the rules and be a bit less petulant.

Speaker 1 I think it's a dumb thing for referees to decide to clamp down on in the first place. Just add the time on.
You know, that's what added time is for. But

Speaker 1 there is a kernel of a point in what Arsenal fans are saying about inconsistency.

Speaker 1 The Daco one I'm not so sure about because he just sort of poodled the ball in the general direction of where Michael Oliver was pointing. Not to the exact spot.
He's not a golfer.

Speaker 1 He doesn't have to place it for Declan Rice or anything.

Speaker 1 Yeah, certainly the Sobozlai won, the Jau Pedro won. Why weren't they punished? But we are in a place where this is being punished sometimes.
Trossard knows this, is painfully aware of this

Speaker 1 because of what happened to Rice.

Speaker 1 So, you know, even if Doku had been booked, if Sobuzly had been booked, if Pedro had been booked, that doesn't make what he did any less bookable.

Speaker 1 I think he should have got a yellow card for blindsiding a stationary opponent in the back with a shoulder bar. If that's not a yellow card, what the hell is?

Speaker 11 Yeah, I don't disagree with you.

Speaker 11 Let's go back to the start, Sam. But actually, City came out brilliantly, didn't they? You know, and Haaland kicked it all off.
No big game bottling, 100 goals and 105 games.

Speaker 11 And like for about 15 minutes, I thought City looks so good in this. You thought, wow, they are.

Speaker 1 This is

Speaker 11 like these sides are at different levels.

Speaker 1 And the worrying thing is that Haaland is coming out with different types of finishes now.

Speaker 1 You know, last season, I remember opening his body up and passing it into the corner, and now he's doing dinks.

Speaker 1 Now he's prodding it towards the near post just to add to his repertoire, which shows he's growing as a player. And Savinha in the first half was fantastic.

Speaker 1 I thought maybe he surprised Arsenal a little bit, you know, Maris Regen and all of that. But

Speaker 1 he had Califiore, he wanted to get tight to him, and he couldn't get tight to him. Turned him, played the pass in.
It was a lovely crafted move.

Speaker 1 And I think for those opening stages, Rodri was an influence already. He was already an influence for City, having made his first start in the Premier League of the season.

Speaker 1 As we said, 20 seconds into the game, I don't think it was 20 seconds, five seconds into the game.

Speaker 1 And that always catches you out as a commentator. I actually thought I'd check back.
I did the game, and I thought I'd check

Speaker 1 through a few of the other commentaries of it. And everyone had that same situation where, as a commentator, the game starts, you got your spiel, right, let's get this one.
Oh, what's happened?

Speaker 1 And you haven't seen it. You haven't seen it because you're looking at the general picture.
And I'm still not sure. I still can't work out why Roderie stayed down initially.

Speaker 1 I couldn't really work out what kept him down for that length of time. Clearly, something wasn't right with him.
And then, obviously, the injury not that long after that. And I think that

Speaker 1 I'm not saying it changed the game per se because City still played well after that but there's no doubt if a player like that goes off the pitch it it changes things and it allowed Arsenal maybe to have a bit more room to make something happen and they certainly did yeah and controversy well over the equalizer I mean such a brilliant goal

Speaker 11 and Kyle Walker was really measured afterwards because he said look I'm not going to add to criticism because there's so much of it but he did call me over so he should at least let me get back there and I know he's kind of back, but there are sort of fine margins.

Speaker 11 But, I mean, it shouldn't stop us talking about what a brilliant finish that is.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think he probably should have allowed him to get back. But obviously, there was still time to defend it in different ways.
Someone should have been closer to Califiori and things like that.

Speaker 4 But an incredible finish from a left back on his full Premier League debut. I mean, the confidence to have in the team that he's playing quite defensively that you think...

Speaker 4 And having watched Cities centre-backs have about 48 shots that went nowhere near the net. It was an incredible bit of technique.

Speaker 4 And he'd had a bit of a tough time, you say, against Savinho. But then to still have that mindset that, yeah, I can make a difference in the final third is quite impressive from him.

Speaker 4 And Edison had no chance. It was, yeah, it was a really good goal.

Speaker 4 I thought it was just curling wide from where I was, but I was at the other end. And so when I saw it hit the inside of the net, I thought, ah, fair play.

Speaker 11 Fair play. I think that's probably right.

Speaker 11 Gabriel Baz from Set Pieces is something else. Like, his bravery and his desire is extraordinary.
And it was really funny that, you know, he has that free header when Doc is marking him.

Speaker 11 So Kyle Walker says, okay,

Speaker 1 I've got this. Yes.
And what I'll do is I'll stand in front of him, repeatedly poke him in the belly.

Speaker 1 And then as the ball is coming in, or just before it's struck, I'll let him run past me.

Speaker 11 So yeah, it's a really incredible move

Speaker 1 because

Speaker 1 such a lot of things have to go right for it to come off. And it had almost come off a few minutes previously.

Speaker 1 I think Skye and Match of the Day, they both played the two coroners, one side by side, one,

Speaker 1 you know, had it one above the other. And they're more or less identical.
And the only difference being that in the second version,

Speaker 1 Gabrielle managed to steer his head around target.

Speaker 1 But the the corner was brilliant by Saka, the manner in which uh martinelli and somebody else blocked uh ederson was superb if if that was vicario we'd be slaughtering him again but because it's ederson he's he gets a free pass maybe yeah just a just a brilliantly engineered corner and arsenal are you know they are renowned for their brilliant set pieces.

Speaker 1 Well, attacking set pieces anyway. They weren't too clever on the last one they had to deal with yesterday.

Speaker 1 And Gabrielle, I think, has scored more goals than any other defender, and they're pretty much all from set pieces.

Speaker 11 And he didn't know he'd scored for quite a long time, which is really fun as well. Just looking around to see where the ball is.
Liam does have a question for you, Barrett.

Speaker 11 He says, before the season started, you said Arsenal had such a tough start that he expected them to be so far behind City that their title challenge might be over, or at least very difficult.

Speaker 11 What are you thinking now with Arsenal unbeaten, having gone to Villa, Spurs, and City?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's very impressive. And we don't know now how long Roderie is going to be out for and City without Rodri are a completely different animal to City with Rodri and a less ferocious animal.

Speaker 1 So that could make a big difference.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think my main takeout so far about Arsenal's been really impressive.

Speaker 1 But their fans still seem desperately unhappy, and I find that quite odd. Yeah.

Speaker 11 I mean, the internet isn't everyone, I guess.

Speaker 1 Well, I've made this point before about, you know, I'm not talking about people on the internet. I'm talking about quite influential people.

Speaker 1 You know, Michel Arteta whinging after games and these people with platforms whinging. Doesn't help.

Speaker 1 It doesn't help the situation at all because you've got all the bottom feeders down below on the internet and they take their lead from people like that.

Speaker 1 They would no doubt beg to differ with me and they're perfectly entitled to.

Speaker 11 Bernardo said after the game said, look, there was only one team that came to to play football. The other team came to play to the limits of what was possible to do and allowed by the referee.

Speaker 11 The second goal is already their usual block to our keeper allowed by the referee. And then the referee allowed a sequence of time-wasting events.

Speaker 11 If it was 11v11, you sort of think anti-football is less forgivable.

Speaker 11 But I do give Arsenal a bit of a pass in just playing how you've got to play and getting cramp and, you know, keepers getting cramp, et cetera, et cetera, and just taking your time.

Speaker 11 Like, if I was playing in that game, I'd be yelling, slow it down, all the time.

Speaker 1 I'm going to put it this way. I've seen Arsenal go to the Etihad a fair few times in the last 10, 15 years.
And when they haven't played that way, they've got battered, really.

Speaker 1 So I think they've evolved even from last season when they did sit off City as well and had their wingers right back almost as fullbacks in their positioning.

Speaker 1 And they were bolder in the first half this time. But I think what...
Arteta has thought, and I believe

Speaker 1 that the side is lacking in the attacking sense still.

Speaker 1 So what's the best way to remedy that without getting players in is to is to make the defence even stronger and know all you need is just that one goal to get over the line which worked against Spurs.

Speaker 1 Brighton, they were similar when they went down to 10. Again, they sat off and they had a couple of chances to win that.
There wasn't really too much difference actually in their approach to this one.

Speaker 1 I actually thought Brighton looked far more dangerous than City did yesterday.

Speaker 1 I think going back to what Barry was saying about Arsenal supporters' anger, I think it's simply that frustration of getting so close and missing out.

Speaker 1 And I remember Liverpool supporters a few seasons back having that same thing until, of course, they won it in the COVID season.

Speaker 1 It's like anything in life. If you get so close to something and you miss out, it just makes it even more irritating.
They probably...

Speaker 1 And it's been a long time for them, hasn't it, as well, going back to trying to win the league. And if they...
It's about positioning, isn't it? We're going to get onto Villa in a minute.

Speaker 1 They're in a completely different sphere in the way they're thinking. Everything's relative to where you see your club.

Speaker 1 I think Manchester United supporters have resigned themselves to thinking we're never going to be in a title race. We're just happy when we beat Barnsley.

Speaker 1 So that's where we're at.

Speaker 1 Football supporters are just like that. If they're not moaning, it's almost a pointless exercise, isn't it? The one thing I would ask Bernardo Silva is, did he have a problem with Manchester City?

Speaker 1 running down the clock against Brentford last weekend. If the answer to that question is no, then, you know, stop talking, Bernardo.

Speaker 11 It would be, it would be funny, although we couldn't advocate it if the only players that did get booked for kicking the ball away were Arsenal players, just for the rest of the season.

Speaker 11 It was just this thing that happened, and no one got that.

Speaker 12 And I don't think they'd stop doing it.

Speaker 1 Can I make one point that one final point, though, about I was going to say about Guardiola.

Speaker 1 Usually, we see Guardiola after a game, his side's beaten somebody quite comfortably, and he gives so much praise to the opposition. Having, you know,

Speaker 1 I'm trying to think of a better phrase than just step back and let City win the game.

Speaker 1 And if a team have taken it to them and City have lost on the rare occasion, he is very obviously critical of the opposition.

Speaker 1 I think yesterday he was caught in two minds with that because I think he was pleased that they got the draw. He had kept that unbeaten, long, unbeaten home run.

Speaker 1 But at the same time, knowing that City, you know, go to win matches. And there'll be.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 I don't buy into this idea that Arsenal will be gutted and it has any influence on the rest of the season.

Speaker 1 I think even if Arsenal held on to the victory, I don't think he'd be handing them the league. In fact, they probably would have celebrated and everyone would have criticised them for celebrating.

Speaker 1 So I don't think it has much influence for the title race. And as the weeks go on, I don't think by the end of the season it's going to have that much relevance because it's so early in the season.

Speaker 1 I said this about Arsenal winning a villa. So it's just a fun game to watch.
That's all. Yeah, totally.

Speaker 11 And Patrick does say, how critical will that point be come the end of the season? Could it keep Man City up?

Speaker 11 Yes, Pep was asked about, Pep wasn't asked about the charges, but he did talk about them, saying people expect to see Manchester City wiped off the face of the earth.

Speaker 11 But I would say I'm sorry I want to defend my club, especially in these modern days when everyone is expecting us not only to be relegated, to be disappeared off the face of the earth, the world, that we have better afternoons at the opponents.

Speaker 11 That's why we win a lot anyway.

Speaker 11 Barry and I were talking to Sam Lee from the Athletic, the Man City correspondent for them yesterday, and he was saying, you know, actually what fans want is either the funny outcomes are either Man City don't get punished at all, in which case the meltdown from everyone else would be insane or they do get sent to league two in which case the meltdown from city would be insane but we'd get to see you know city in league two which would be totally fascinating all right that'll do for part one we will rattle through the rest of the games in parts two and three

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Speaker 11 Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 11 Ian, a West Ham fan, says, having sat through 90 minutes minutes of attack versus no defence at West Ham on Saturday, can I just say how much I enjoyed the 45 minutes of attack versus defence on Sunday?

Speaker 11 Great stuff. Yes, West Ham nil, Chelsea 3.
So I said to Baz yesterday, it felt like Chelsea were cleaned through for the entire game.

Speaker 11 Obviously, with these games, Barry, one team good, one team bad, but I thought West Ham were appalling in this.

Speaker 1 I was surprised by how bad they were. Their defence was non-existent.
It's the first full game of theirs, I think, I've seen this season, and it was quite shocking. And

Speaker 1 last season, when it was sort of up in the air whether or not David Moyes would stay or go, West Ham fans were being

Speaker 1 reacting very chippily to being told to be careful what you wish for. And I'm now beginning to wonder if some of those West Ham fans might have changed their mind and be pining for David Moyes.

Speaker 1 But, you know, obviously, with the caveat that it is still very early in the season, the ease with which Chelsea just

Speaker 1 knifed, you know, cut through them like a hot knife through butter was, it was incredibly surprising. And

Speaker 1 Nicholas Jackson, in particular, was making hay down the left flank.

Speaker 1 I'm not sure where Aaron Wan-Bissaka was.

Speaker 1 And then he had a...

Speaker 1 run through the middle where he just sprinted between through this massive gap between the two centre halves. West Ham should have had a penalty when they were only 2-0 down.

Speaker 1 That might have made some sort of difference. But I think

Speaker 1 it's three defeats in a row at home for them now, and

Speaker 1 they could have lost by a lot more.

Speaker 11 I think you're doing Butter a disservice, actually,

Speaker 11 in that comparison. The Nicholas Jackson one.
I mean, it's just no West Ham player went anywhere near him. It just looked like a computer game glitch.
Like, no West Ham player went anywhere near him.

Speaker 11 It was really odd.

Speaker 11 Like you say, the first time, they've they've lost their three home games first home games that's the first time in their entire history 129 years that they've lost their opening three

Speaker 11 you know has been against Man City Villa and and Chelsea but still you know 120 years 29 years is quite a long time actually I think they've only won twice at home since Christmas so you know a lot of irate West Ham fans meanwhile Seb

Speaker 11 are Chelsea good I mean it looks good right it looks like they've got competition for places up front you know Maresk has kind of picked his two for each spot.

Speaker 11 There's sort of seems to be a plan developing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think we're going to be working this out all season. I think that's the way it's going to go.
I mean, I covered them against Bournemouth last weekend in the crazy yellow card derby.

Speaker 1 They have got a lot of quality in their team. They have a lot of quality in the front lines.
And they do look like they all get on together and they've got a cohesion there.

Speaker 1 And I think Palmer is a lovely... He's just the perfect person to have in the middle of the pace around him.
And

Speaker 1 I actually think they look quite good going forward. Now there's still question marks about their defence.

Speaker 1 I believe that's the case and when they play the better sides but that's why I believe they'll finish in the top four. I just think they're going to win a lot of these games and

Speaker 1 even City and Liverpool and Arsenal will probably beat West Ham but they maybe won't make it look as easy as Chelsea did yesterday in terms of being able to cut through them at will because Chelsea are going to invite teams onto them.

Speaker 1 They're going to allow teams to come onto them a little bit and break quickly. And that could be devastating devastating in terms of them racking up the goals this season.

Speaker 1 Whether it's going to be enough for them to

Speaker 1 win a trophy is a big question, but that's a case for a lot of sides. But I think Chelsea supporters will be feeling really good about it because there's cohesion in that front line.

Speaker 1 There's something about the team's got something about them.

Speaker 1 And I think Nicholas Jackson, having always written off, maybe because he's not got that star name and nobody, not many people in this country had heard of him before he'd arrived here.

Speaker 1 I think he's a perfectly good striker for Chelsea at this stage of their their development. Can I call it development? Sure.
Progression. Yeah.
Investment. I don't know.

Speaker 11 Their amortised eight-year progression. Yeah, I mean, it shows what confidence does.

Speaker 11 I wonder what you, you know, Mareska's obviously got a lot of criticism early, Will, for, you know, perhaps the treatment of Raheem Sterling, you know, Conor Gallagher being frozen out, whether that was all Mareska.

Speaker 11 It seemed like the Sterling one was. Now he has the ones that he likes.
And I think we all sort of said, well, if you've got a million players, you've got to pick some and like back them.

Speaker 11 And he's doing that.

Speaker 4 that yeah i think the the difficulty for mareska is definitely not involving the quality of player because you know they've got a good young squad lots of potential exciting individuals it's a getting that combination right and b keeping everyone happy because when you have so many players and there's still quite a few in a bomb squad wandering around at cobham it is keeping morale up keeping camaradi making sure everyone's part of one cohesive squad and that's what you've got to do.

Speaker 4 Those players are going to score goals. They're going to take teams apart like West Ham.
That's fine.

Speaker 4 It's just whether you can have that sort of high morale consistently, and if you can keep those players motivated when they have to come in, those other players that are now sort of just on streets wondering if they are getting a chance.

Speaker 4 But you see, Sancho was benched last week, comes in against West Ham, and was excellent. He looks like he's getting it right.

Speaker 4 Whether that will be the same come March, April, May, and obviously they've got European competition to help with that. It'll be interesting, but yeah, there's no doubting what they can do.

Speaker 4 It's just a case of keeping those players happy and maybe just as an idea, lads, not buy another 10 players next summer. Just try and work with what you've got.

Speaker 4 There's a goalkeeper somewhere sort of hiding under like a load of bibs at Cobbham that they forgot about. So it's that.
Keep to the plan. Don't do anything silly.

Speaker 4 Trust Maresko with the players he likes and maybe not randomly give someone else a nine-year contract next year.

Speaker 11 Yeah, and Lobotegui does, when he looks sad, it sort of just gives David Moyes vibes. There's a sort of similarly sort of

Speaker 11 morose-looking chap. And you just sort of think, oh no, they've just, West Tamman's going, I've just got the same, I've got the same thing.
To Villa Park, Villa 3 Wolves won.

Speaker 11 Seb, you were covering this. I thought Wolves were a bit unlucky in this.
I feel like they've been a bit unlucky so far to only have, what, a point this season?

Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. And the fixture list has been so difficult.

Speaker 1 But how forgiving are owners? I think they'll probably

Speaker 1 keep Gary O'Neill for the foreseeable future simply because they don't want to pay the money to let him go. But yeah, I've covered a few Wolves games already this season and they are unlucky.

Speaker 1 But I think they have this situation where when their game's going against them, there seems to be a lack of, and it's a simple thing to say, but a leadership in the team.

Speaker 1 I see the players arguing amongst themselves and they fall apart quite quickly.

Speaker 1 We saw that obviously in the Chelsea game. Newcastle, they were wanding up and then two quick goals in the latter part of the game.
And yesterday was the same.

Speaker 1 There was a bit towards the end when Cunha was really frustrated. The ball didn't reach him, wasn't looking the right way.
Then Dawson passed it to him and then they had an argument about it and

Speaker 1 the players coming off the bench didn't seem to have an urgency or even a cohesion with the rest of the side.

Speaker 1 It was really unfortunate. As for Villa, I think

Speaker 1 Villa's game sort of matched my weekend actually because I own a few sheep and they went walkabout on the Friday afternoon.

Speaker 11 Hang on a second.

Speaker 1 This is interesting.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so the sheep went walkabout on the Friday afternoon, and I had to go and find them, which was my prep time for the game, which meant that I was staying up a bit late to prepare for the game and I was a bit all over the place.

Speaker 1 But I got my act together, and I have to say, the prep was really impressive by the end. And that was basically Villa.
They were a bit all over the place in the first half. Diego Carlos

Speaker 1 with the loose pass. pass and

Speaker 1 there was a little bit of discontent in the crowd but it was interesting of course because Gary Shore had passed away earlier in the week and it's quite emotional in there I have to say and the Wolves supporters as well applauding in the eighth minute and the man who wears his number now, the number eight Tielemans had a fantastic second half and once they brought Barclay on as well They got control of that midfield.

Speaker 1 Anana had put in some great tackles in the first half, but there wasn't a control for Villa Villa there. And once they had that platform, there was no chance for Wolves after that.

Speaker 1 They dominated the second half.

Speaker 11 You're just thinking of the sheep now, aren't you? Well, yes. I mean, I am.
I think listeners would expect me to go in that route. How many sheep? And

Speaker 11 did you find that? Where had they all gone? Were they all together still?

Speaker 1 They got about 20 minutes down the road. Somehow, nobody had noticed them.
And he'd snuck off. Yeah, there's four of them.

Speaker 11 You have four sheep?

Speaker 1 Four boys. Okay.
Four sheep, yeah. Yeah.
They're lovely. They're lovely.
Initially, when they saw me, they thought, oh no, there he is. I tried to run off.

Speaker 1 But I got them back. They're all good.
They're all comfortable now and happy with the three points.

Speaker 1 Were you able to track them by looking for bits of wool caught on the barbed wire fence or droppings, footprints?

Speaker 1 Absolutely. I'd head to the ground, sniffing.

Speaker 1 And then I went to look for the sheep. No, I went, I looked, I knew the path they'd made.

Speaker 1 They'd got through a hole in the fence and they'd made it all the way down to some potato fields around the back that had already been, you know, taken out the ground. So that was, that was okay.

Speaker 1 So they'd gone past that, sat in the trees, I think. I couldn't find them.

Speaker 1 So actually, we went to bed thinking, oh gosh, they've just

Speaker 1 given up on them, really. And then woke up in the morning.
Really early. This is the morning of the game.
Right. Don't forget.

Speaker 1 And I wandered out about 5 a.m. because I thought it was cooler then.
It was a hot day on Friday. And

Speaker 1 then there they were.

Speaker 11 I think Peter Drury's doing the same thing. I think Drury's, you know,

Speaker 11 his pigeons have disappeared. You know, back in the day, no one will have these sheep.
John Motsons running after a herd of cattle that have gone somewhere.

Speaker 4 I mean, surely John Motson's coat was based around his own sheep.

Speaker 1 I mean, he must have been.

Speaker 13 It also explains why Seb is dressed as a shepherd with that hat.

Speaker 1 That's the reason for it. And working towards this.

Speaker 11 Farry, we both really enjoyed how Ezra Concern put that one in from the brilliant Tieleman's Cross. Yeah,

Speaker 1 it was like he was launched out of a trebuchet, just appeared out of nowhere, this

Speaker 1 sort of

Speaker 1 whizzing ball of flailing limbs, and the ball just kind of hit him and went in.

Speaker 1 And he went into the net after it, which is always good.

Speaker 1 But that was another well-worked corner by Villa and

Speaker 1 a tip of the hat to Austin Maxett Peace McPhee.

Speaker 11 Yeah, absolutely. Quick one say on Morgan Rodgers to watch him like you watch the whole game.
It looks like he's got everything, right? He cost 8 million in January.

Speaker 11 And I just wonder, when you obviously see a bit of different shape of the game and you can see players differently when you're at the game, what is your view of this chat?

Speaker 1 I think he's the reason why we're not seeing Duran and Watkins as a front pairing. I know that Emery's talked about that being a case and they were on together because they were chasing the game.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 he looks like he has all the tools, really. And just at the moment, because the physical side is covered, I think the technical aspect is covered as well.
He links up play very well.

Speaker 1 And I think it's just decision-making at certain times, and that will come. And Emery really, really likes him.
I think Ramsey was his man last season, but then had the injury.

Speaker 1 And he was almost forced to play Rogers, and he just went with it.

Speaker 1 And I just think being a Villa fan at the moment must feel fantastic to have Bayern on the horizon, Celtic having won already in the Champions League, looking like a side.

Speaker 1 I mean, even the Arsenal game, they didn't play too badly. And I don't think they've even hit their top form actually this season either.
So

Speaker 1 almost of all the teams in the league at the moment, arguably they're the happiest right now. There's an argument to say that.

Speaker 1 And with good reason to come back and win the friendly West Midlands Derby. I mean, they were having a great time, both sets of supporters at points in the game.

Speaker 1 Maybe we should just not even bother calling it a Derby, just say.

Speaker 11 These people like each other.

Speaker 1 Something else.

Speaker 11 To Craven Cottage, Barry. Great performance from Fulham.
They've been at Newcastle 3-1. They've started the season pretty well.
Barry, they're aside,

Speaker 11 we often find it difficult to have an opinion on. Have you now formed one?

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 1 They're more proving to be more interesting than I thought they would be. They're better than I thought they would be.

Speaker 1 But I'm going to rein on the Fulham parade now by saying this defeat has been in the post for Newcastle. I think it's been coming.
And Newcastle have been hoovering up points.

Speaker 1 I think, were they unbeaten going into this game?

Speaker 11 Could have gone top, yeah.

Speaker 1 So I wasn't surprised they lost because they were due a defeat.

Speaker 1 Too many of their big-name players aren't performing. Bruno isn't performing.
Joel Linton isn't performing. Anthony Gordon isn't performing.
Fabian

Speaker 1 Scher was poor in this game. He missed a good chance and he was badly at fault for Fulham's opener.

Speaker 1 The one bright spot for Newcastle. Sorry, I'm supposed to be talking about Fulham, aren't I? Harvey Barnes is playing very well.
But

Speaker 1 yeah,

Speaker 1 Adamatriore

Speaker 1 is

Speaker 1 picking out players with his crosses. He's doing damage to rival teams rather than just hurtling up the wing at great speed and then putting the ball out of playing the stand opposite.

Speaker 1 I don't really have anything else to say. I think Fulham are doing better than I thought they would.

Speaker 11 Yeah, I mean, there are some real positive stories without Fulham. You know, Rau Jimenez, 9-12 now in the Premier League, and like took that goal, like prime wolves, Jimenez.

Speaker 11 And then I think Smith Row and Rhys Nelson, who, even if you're not an Arsenal fan, you sort of

Speaker 11 like them as players, you know, both scoring, Smith Rowe looking happy. These are sort of nice stories to come out of Fulham.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think with Jimenez, no one can really understand what impacts, you know, his injury in Arsenal, Arsenal was it you know such a long road back

Speaker 4 and a very difficult one to come back from other players haven't you know to have the confidence now must be magical for him you know and his family to you know because at the time when he came back he didn't look like he was going to score many but when he was at walls he felt like he was going to move on to a bigger club and you know score goals wherever he went so it's great to see him back and what you know clinical finish and then i think you look at smith row just a player that wants to be the main man and has not had that.

Speaker 4 You know, was it not

Speaker 4 barely finished on 90 minutes in his Arsenal career? But now at Fulham, I saw them lose opening night of the season, but he and he probably not had a full preseason at that point.

Speaker 4 And he didn't look 100% fit, but always wanted the ball, always wanted to be in it, did some damage, caused problems for United in midfield, which admittedly is not always the most difficult.

Speaker 4 But yeah, he just looks a man that is eager to take possession and make the difference for a team, which he's which he's never really had, I'd argue, at Arsenal.

Speaker 4 You know, obviously, shown what quality he operates with, but at the same time, is never someone relied upon by Arteta in big games.

Speaker 4 And now, beating teams like Newcastle, who couldn't cope with him, you know, Nelson scoring at the end is

Speaker 4 positive for him. He's again the one that's been on a periphery, and the more minutes he gets, very talented football, the better for him.

Speaker 4 And you know, hopefully, Fulham reaped the rewards of raiding Arsenal for a couple of very talented players that have been underused.

Speaker 11 In a few days, where we've seen some amazing goalkeeping, like David Rayer

Speaker 11 at Atalanta

Speaker 11 on Thursday night, and then Andre Inana for United. It's quite nice to see Nick Pope looking like an old man bending down to pick up a ball when Smith Rowe did that toe puck.

Speaker 11 I know he took it early, but it did go down incredibly slowly. I suppose he's very tall, isn't he, Nick Pope? So we should give him some sympathy.

Speaker 11 We will talk about goalkeepers because we're going to go to Spurs-Brentford and get to Vicario in a bit. But said, like, Spurs deserve this win.

Speaker 11 Really important for them. And almost sort of perfect in the goal scorers.
Solanke getting a goal, Brennan Johnson, and James Madison playing slightly deeper, who was absolutely brilliant.

Speaker 1 This is another reason why we love football, because he said three players there, who I reckon probably a minute before they scored, were all being slagged off by Spurs

Speaker 1 and have been for a

Speaker 1 period of time because Solanke needed a goal. And even the managers, you know, Ad Postakogu has stated that really.
He just needs him to get that goal, get off the mark.

Speaker 1 Same with Johnson. And sometimes there's expectations of players.
What are you getting?

Speaker 1 But I think with these players, we shouldn't really be surprised with the performances from any of these players, really.

Speaker 1 There's a reason not to be rude to Spurs, but the reason why they're at Spurs, because this is the market that Spurs are in. These are the type of players that they end up having to sign.

Speaker 1 And so, therefore, they just had to, I just think the feeling of winning today was so important because you just have to, and I'll say it before and say it again.

Speaker 1 The key was was when this game kicked off

Speaker 1 because

Speaker 1 that slot on the weekend is vital when you look at those wins at three o'clock get those wins under your belt this is where Newcastle were always going to lose this game always because this is why they won't be in the top three probably you have to and why the sides that drew drew because those sides are going to be near the bottom playing each other they're going to need be near the bottom i think spurs win a lot of the three o'clocks i mean somebody can bring the stats barry i don't know if you've you've got access to those.

Speaker 1 I don't have them at my fingertips.

Speaker 1 But I imagine Tottenham do win a fair amount of games

Speaker 1 and get themselves up the league in that fashion. And, of course, Liverpool won then.
I do feel for Brentford because I always think they're up against it every single game.

Speaker 1 Because I heard Wolves supporters actually before the game against Phillis saying, well, it's not too bad. I'll fix this.
I know we got Liverpool.

Speaker 1 I know we got Man City, but we do have Brentford away, and that should be a winnable fixture. And it's like, well, not really.

Speaker 1 But I think all other teams of the league look at Brentford and think, we should beat them.

Speaker 1 But they can beat anybody in the league. And they've shown that.
You know, they've probably picked up three points against every team in the league

Speaker 1 since they've been promoted.

Speaker 1 Well, that's all I've got to say.

Speaker 11 That's fine. They were missing players as well, weren't they? Missing Johan Wisser.
Norgaard was out as well. So they weren't.
Spurs weren't being a full-strength Brentford.

Speaker 11 It is worth mentioning Vicario Baz. Really fun that he bounced the ball all the way down the field and the ref didn't notice.

Speaker 11 And then some Brentford players got booked and the sort of madness that VAR can't get involved.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm still not 100% sure why Var can't get involved.

Speaker 11 But it's not denying a goal scoring opportunity or a red card. So it's not a red card offence, so they can't.

Speaker 1 Okay, right. It's just odd.
I mean, he had a weird game. He made some couple of brilliant saves.
The one in particular from a Kevin Shade downward header, like that was just superb save.

Speaker 1 And then a couple of times he went walk about.

Speaker 1 He was sort of fumbling around on his hands and knees trying to stop Brian M. Muembo from

Speaker 1 taking the ball around him.

Speaker 1 So, I mean, there's no doubt in my mind he's a good goalkeeper, but it's nice to see him in a bit of a pickle that doesn't involve him being, you know, bundled into the back of his own net at a corner.

Speaker 11 Producer Joel did write, Vicario denied Kevin Sharda. I think he wants me to pronounce it Kevin Shard.

Speaker 11 This is no ordinary glove, which is, I mean, possibly the worst pun that is ever in football weekly history.

Speaker 11 I like that. Seb has his head in his hands.
Good result for Spurs. They play Man United next Sunday.
Feels like there'll be a big crisis Kluxen hanging over the Tottenham Hot Spurs Stadium there.

Speaker 11 And did we mention Mbumo's goal in the 22nd second, which was the second game they've scored in the second game in a row they've scored in the 22nd second?

Speaker 11 It hasn't helped them in either.

Speaker 1 And a very good goal it was, too.

Speaker 11 Brilliant finish.

Speaker 1 He's a real smooth operator, isn't he?

Speaker 11 Oh, God. Here we go.
Let's end this part before.

Speaker 1 Look at the silence.

Speaker 11 Absolutely nothing. You've got nothing said for that.

Speaker 4 Now I know why the sheep run off. Yeah.

Speaker 11 The good thing is, nobody knows the third Sarday hit. So we're safe, aren't we? We'll be back in a second.
We'll start part three at Anfield.

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Speaker 11 Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly, Liverpool 3, Bournemouth. Nil Will, you were at this one.
The slightly more patient Liverpool, but occasionally getting it launched still.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, I've completely forgotten about it after the Etiard yesterday. Yeah, turns out Liverpool are a lot better against teams that are really open.

Speaker 4 Really helps them out.

Speaker 4 I was at the Forest Forest Game the previous week and just couldn't, you know, Liverpool weren't at the best, but couldn't get through them. You know, it was all very slow, poor football.

Speaker 4 But against Bournemouth, you know, Arifa Balag had made a few good saves before the opener,

Speaker 4 which then he'd obviously forgotten what his role was, unfortunately. And unlike Vicario, he decided against just coming out and catching the ball 20 yards from his own net, which was

Speaker 1 in hindsight. More full hit, right?

Speaker 4 If we're all looking for consistency in the Premier League, they will just let it go. It just shows the sort of difference that one error makes.
And Bournemouth had started well.

Speaker 4 They scored the goal in the fourth minute, but then it was ruled out for offside when Semenyu tapped in the back post.

Speaker 4 You didn't need to be offside, so that would be really frustrating for Iray Ola, I'm sure.

Speaker 4 But yeah, Liverpool were really good. Louis Diaz was fantastic.
You know, he

Speaker 4 gave the right back a horrid time even before the goal. And then for the goal, just, yeah.
ping it up from Canate.

Speaker 4 Lovely touch from Diaz after Kepa decided against coming to get him and put it into an empty night. It was fantastic.
Bit of football from Diaz, and what he deserved.

Speaker 4 And then second goal, Trent wanders up the pitcher and right back as you do, get to the edgy area, slip it into Diaz under the keeper.

Speaker 4 And Noon has with a fine finish, and the game's done within 12 minutes from first goal to last. And Liverpool, really good.

Speaker 4 Gravin Birch, giving a load of room, is you know, he's been fantastic in that number six role. People keep saying, you know, can he do it?

Speaker 4 Is that going to cause a few problems? But obviously, given time, he's really good. He wasn't great, say, against Forest when Gibbs White got to him.

Speaker 4 And I'm suspicious in bigger games against teams like City, Arsenal, that it might be a bit different. But at the moment, he's proving me wrong.
You know, he proved me wrong in Milan in midweek.

Speaker 4 And Nunes came in and scored his first goal in 15, I think that was. Just shows the options that he's got.
Kiesa came on and looked bright. Gap pose looking good.

Speaker 4 You know, there's plenty to get excited about. And that Forest game is already looking like a little bit of a blip.

Speaker 4 It's, you know, they've lost once, they've conceded one goal all season, they've won the rest. It's all going pretty well for Arna.

Speaker 4 I mean, it was quite funny, he said before the match he really likes playing against teams with a low block, which is obviously quite tedious as we all found out. Yes, he had.

Speaker 4 And I said to him, I mean, this is more fun, Arna. He's like, oh, yeah, but you know, we can concede a lot of chances, like, so I prefer the low block.
And it is funny, they had 19 shots, Liverpool.

Speaker 4 I think it was 13 on target, maybe. But Bournemouth also had 19 shots, but only six.
So it showed showed how open it was. And it was quite an entertaining game.

Speaker 4 I don't think Keller really had to stretch himself, so that's the difference. But yeah, good signs for Liverpool.

Speaker 4 Plenty going on in the starting 11 and the showroom that they can rotate it because Slot was stuck to the same team for most of the opening matches.

Speaker 4 But now the quality of that squad is shining through. So it'll be an exciting few months, I think, for Liverpool with the Champions League and Premier League looking on track.

Speaker 11 I think you've covered that absolutely brilliantly, unless anyone else has anything to note. Well done, Will.
Oh, that sounded very patronizing. There, there.
Pat on the head for you. Really good.

Speaker 11 Applauding to the crowd. I just want to point out, actually, Liverpool do this really well.

Speaker 11 I mean, lots of clubs do, but I watched a bit of social content they did with Curtis Jones visiting a young fan in a cafe.

Speaker 11 And, you know, this fan who has some learning difficulties and loves Liverpool. And it was just one of those where, you know, sometimes clubs do these things that are absolutely beautiful.

Speaker 11 And at a moment of weakness, because young Ian had been up since 3am,

Speaker 11 it did sort of, you know, it got me a little bit choked. So, well, Curtis Jones comes across as an absolutely wonderful guy.

Speaker 11 Brighton 2, Forrest 2, this Barry was actually a brilliant game of football. Slightly overshadowed by what happened after it.
But it was a great game, this, I thought.

Speaker 1 I think it was completely overshadowed by what came after. But yeah, it was a very enjoyable game.
And it also had a moment of controversy, or a couple of them.

Speaker 1 I think a draw between these sides was probably the fair result. But Brighton,

Speaker 1 I suspect Forrest will be a lot happier with the point than Brighton

Speaker 1 because Brighton, for the second week in a row, failed to put a game away when they had a quite long period in the ascendancy.

Speaker 1 And the main talking point, I suppose, is Morgan Gibbs White being sent off for a second bucket of the fence. Fairly wild tackle on how Pedro, I thought.
and I'm pretty sure it's been outlawed.

Speaker 1 It's a definite yellow card.

Speaker 1 But it's the manner in which the second yellow was given that or brandished that seems to be the problem, insofar as the match referee seemed to be laboring under the delusion, and this is quite worrying, that if you win the ball, then it's a fine, the tackle is fine.

Speaker 1 That's not the case. Like, winning the ball is irrelevant.
And

Speaker 1 it seems to be the case that the fourth official, Anthony Taylor, was the guy who insisted that the second yellow be given.

Speaker 1 So that's a bit of a worry if an actual Premier League referee doesn't know that winning the ball does not mean a tackle is fair.

Speaker 11 Do you not think perhaps, like, the ref does the ball signal, which is a kind of way of saying it's not a foul? I mean, like, I know what you mean.

Speaker 11 If you sort of literally, obviously, if you take the ball, but you break someone's legs in a reckless way,

Speaker 11 unlike breaking someone's legs in a non-reckless way, but I mean, mean that does happen. But you see what I mean? Like you just do that ball thing.

Speaker 11 This doesn't work in podcasting particularly well, but everybody knows what I'm doing with my hands.

Speaker 11 That he just sort of was saying it's not a foul, even though literally, I don't know. I'm trying to mount a defense.

Speaker 1 Well, that's what I am saying. Yeah.
The ref was insinuating that because Morgan Gibbs White got the ball,

Speaker 1 it wasn't a foul.

Speaker 11 No, well, we're splitting hairs here, but what I'm saying is by just doing that action is him saying saying it's not a foul, not him saying, well, he got the ball, so it's not a foul.

Speaker 11 But maybe I'm mounting a ridiculous defence. Yes.
I mean, you're allowed to...

Speaker 1 Your defence, I don't understand why.

Speaker 1 The defence. I mean, I'm not saying I don't understand why you're defending them.
I just don't understand the defence you're mounting. I do.

Speaker 1 I was going to add to this particular point, because you're going to move on elsewhere, that it'd be interesting if it had been the other way.

Speaker 1 Anthony Taylor had been the referee and Rob Jones had been the fourth official. Because as a more senior referee, does he feel he's got to, you know,

Speaker 1 chip in or add something more?

Speaker 1 I don't know if the seniority played a part in this particular scenario, whether he was even asked for his opinion on it and he felt, no, I've got to, I've just got to tell you, young boy, that you got this one wrong.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You know, there's a little bit of that going on.

Speaker 11 I love Brighton's goals. I mean, Hinchwood's header is his textbook.
Isn't it absolutely perfect?

Speaker 11 And the Eternal Welbeck, you know, who I didn't really have down as a deadball specialist, but he has become one, hasn't he?

Speaker 11 And Davidson spent much of the Brighton Forest game thinking that Jotter looks a bit like Jack Grealish would look if he'd kept on celebrating the treble, which is slightly unnatural, isn't it?

Speaker 1 But it did make me laugh.

Speaker 11 Yeah, the Premier League match centre tweeted the referee issued a second yellow card to Gibbs White for a reckless challenge on Pedro.

Speaker 11 Fabian Hertzler and Nuno Esperato Santo were both sent off for their unacceptable technical area behavior following the incident. Herzler looked completely miffed, didn't he?

Speaker 1 That's a statement that explains nothing. I mean, it doesn't clear up the controversy.
It just states what happened. Yeah.
We know what happened. We want to know why it happened

Speaker 1 or how it happened. It might be one of my favourite things in football when it's all just kicking off on the touchline.
Because

Speaker 1 working in TV, you know, the director, it doesn't know where to go. Does not know where to go.
It was a bit like,

Speaker 1 who do I get to?

Speaker 1 And you can always hear off camera, you know, the second manager's been sent off. Nuna's been sent off and the crowd goes,

Speaker 1 I need to get across to cover that as well. Just that sort of chaos.

Speaker 1 Red cards, I mean, they can ruin matches, but also when there's one on each side as there was i think in the preston blackburn game as well it just it just i think it adds to it actually palace nil man united nil will eric ten hag said that man united ate crystal palace alive when they're referring to their first half Who would you eat first?

Speaker 11 Will Hughes? If you're not hungry, you'd go Will Hughes. If you wanted a big feed, I don't know, Jefferson Lerma, maybe.

Speaker 11 But I thought Man United were really good in this game, Will, and they didn't win.

Speaker 4 No, it's a new phenomenon for United. United.
Usually, they're terrible and lose, so you know, being good and not winning, I guess, is a positive.

Speaker 4 Yeah, they're looking quite good, I think. They had a lot of chances, and so the only worry, I guess, is they're not taking them.

Speaker 4 I think Xerxe doesn't at the moment look like the most clinical of strikers, but Hoyland's on his way back, so that's positive for them. They're playing some shot football.

Speaker 4 Ganacho's, you know, had quite a few cameos and looked good. Now he's starting.
Even, you know, Rashford has found some form. It's all quite positive.

Speaker 4 Ericsson is even looking comfortable in midfield, which is a shock to most people. And with Agate building his minutes and getting used to United,

Speaker 4 it's looking quite good. Even the centre-back pairing of De Lit and that lunatic Martinez are doing quite well.
And Ana's making double saves.

Speaker 4 Yeah, they're even avoiding getting sent off for the worst challenges you'll ever see. So things are looking up at United.

Speaker 11 Yeah, that Martinez challenge was a bit like a 70s kung fu film. I know he's nowhere near any of the players, but it was quite funny.
I mean, the thing is, Palace could have sneaked it, couldn't they?

Speaker 11 Like, it was actually quite an entertaining Neil-Neil, I thought.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, we were talking about goalkeepers earlier, and Dean Henderson played

Speaker 1 like a man who had a point to prove to Manchester United and Eric Ten Hag.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 but it was Andrea Nana who

Speaker 1 made the best save of the game,

Speaker 1 the double save from Enketia and Ishmila Sar

Speaker 1 and then

Speaker 1 Saar went on to tee up Eberici Yeze for an opportunity you would expect him to convert more often than not and he fired it narrowly wider the upright. So

Speaker 1 while Manchester United might have been the better team, Palace could have nicked it. I just wanted, because you were talking about eating footballers, I've just had a check.

Speaker 1 Jefferson Lerma is three inches shorter than Will Hughes. So actually,

Speaker 11 he's quite spindly Will Hughes, isn't he? Will Hughes are quite, I think he's spindly.

Speaker 1 He depends if you like a bit more bone or a bit more.

Speaker 11 That's a good point. It's a very good point.

Speaker 11 He gives the air of being tiny, Will Hughes, but there you are. Lester won Everton one and Southampton won it.
Switch one? Do Lester Everton first? I mean,

Speaker 11 you've had to cover Everton quite a lot, Will, haven't you? And okay, they gave up another lead. It was incredibly wet this game.

Speaker 11 This doesn't feel like as disastrous as the other ones. Not just because they didn't lose, but it was kind of okay.

Speaker 4 No, it's getting a point three is good for everyone at the moment, as you've seen from their previous games where they picked up roughly none.

Speaker 4 I was at the Bournemouth game where they threw away the lead and with three minutes left and managed to lose 3-2 for him being taken a lot. That's a bad day professionally.

Speaker 4 They're a weird team because they're conceding goals where they didn't last year.

Speaker 4 Not got Branff weight, which is obviously a big issue now.

Speaker 4 Had to make a few changes, But in Daish looked really good, he was really good against Bournemouth, and that's all been lost, funnily enough, when you can see three goals in nine minutes.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 4 Daish always knows how to get out of these things. They build momentum, they go through a run of

Speaker 4 three wins in four games, things like that.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 it just feels so tired, and I think at Goodison, I was there for Southampton in the League Cup, there was just sort of the the edge of mutiny with Daish.

Speaker 4 The thing with Daish's football is it's awful to watch, generally. You won't pay.

Speaker 4 And in order to keep that up, you have to win matches. And when you're losing the first four games of the season in generally pretty pitiful fashion, fans get upset.

Speaker 4 You've still got Ashley Young at 39 playing fullback because he's there, so he gets a new contract.

Speaker 4 So there's a sense that things about turn obviously, there's a lot of frustrations over the takeover, and we're onto the fifth bidder that's not managed managed to get it over the line yet.

Speaker 4 So, you can see why this you know irked nature within the Everton fans.

Speaker 4 But Calvert Lewins looks alright this season, if they can keep him fit, as I say, and Dai's positive, McNeil's having a decent year,

Speaker 4 Tim Arogue Bunam is looking decent, you know, Mangala is a good player, so it's not a lost cause, but they need some positivity soon.

Speaker 4 Otherwise, you know, Daish has irritated the fans with a few comments about fans fans come and go or you know fans leave matches and that's what you know that's what they do

Speaker 4 so yeah i think it's going to be a big month for daish if he's going to stick around obviously everyone are going to you know struggle to get rid of him because they don't really want to pay the compensation and if you want to replace him you're going to have to find someone that plays football like him so you you have to bring back david boys essentially um but yeah at least they're on the board so i hope that'll give them the confidence they need to to kick on a bit but yeah they're never far away from a little crisis.

Speaker 11 Southampton one Ip switch one Tyler Diblig looking like an excellent player isn't he lots of big clubs already circling about a last minute equalizer for Ipswich.

Speaker 11 I do want to focus Seb on the referee Sam Mallison saying hello there to the ball as he walked out. I can't tell you how much I love this moment.
And

Speaker 11 there is a part of me that thinks maybe it was just VAR in his ear at that exact moment.

Speaker 1 But it does very much look like he's talking to the ball like ray winston talks to another gangster you know hello there that that sort of vibe i think it's absolutely and like some people i tweeted out some people like oh god look at referees they love everything but i thought it was just a lovely moment there he is oh there you are some of you rubbing the sheep um no he's the problem that referees have is they still can't get a break because i saw that i saw you tweet that and comments underneath just people said yeah but he didn't have the right amount of time on did he or you missed that challenge or blah blah blah so they could just carry, but I don't think they were allowed to have fun, actually.

Speaker 1 It's almost uh

Speaker 1 so to have that little moment before the game's even kicked off, I think is was quite nice to see, it has to be said.

Speaker 11 I mean, it is slightly odd, Barry. I mean, it's nice, but it's an odd thing to look at an inanimate object and say hello.

Speaker 1 I don't know, is it?

Speaker 2 All we want from our officials is consistency.

Speaker 1 So get every single one of them to introduce themselves to the ball before each match. Or else he has to say hello to every inanimate object he sees.

Speaker 1 Or no inanimate object.

Speaker 11 I haven't watched enough of him walking out and picking the ball off the plinth to see if he does it every time.

Speaker 11 Or he just particularly liked this ball and he decided to have an affinity with this football.

Speaker 12 Well, I think

Speaker 1 it's his first season as a Premier League ref, I think. And I think his dad was a ref.

Speaker 1 So I just

Speaker 1 could be wrong. I think it was his dad was a ref.

Speaker 1 So maybe his father used to speak to football as well possible it's a family tradition i don't know and apologies sam if i'm mixing you up with another referee yeah and apologies to southampton ipswich fans going that's not the insight we wanted but you know well i mean we could talk about southampton and ipswich but i don't think it's going to make very nice listening for the fans of either side because they both look hopelessly out of their depth at the moment and it's a bit of a worry really isn't it because the three teams that came up last season went straight or the season before last went straight back down

Speaker 1 could happen again. And that's why, yeah, that's why Southampton and Ipswich didn't win their game and Leicester and Everton didn't win their game at three o'clock on a Saturday, playing each other.

Speaker 1 None of those four teams could win the game, and that's going to spell the end of their seasons, but only three can go down, of course.

Speaker 11 All right, that'll do for today. Thank you so much, Barry.

Speaker 1 Thank you.

Speaker 11 Thank you, Will. Thanks, Max.
Thank you, Zeb. Thank you.
Go 10 to the sheep.

Speaker 11 Women's Football Weekly is back. So listen to that.
EFL pod tomorrow. Any questions, just send us a tweet or email.
Footballweekly at theguardian.com. Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Speaker 11 Our executive producer is Daniel Stevens.

Speaker 1 This is The Guardian.