Revisited: The life and times of Troy Townsend – Football Weekly

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Hi Football Weekly fans, it is Max here.

I hope you're having a lovely day.

While we're away, we're just putting out some old material, playing some of the hits.

Here is the life and times of Troy Townsend.

It is uplifting, it is moving, it is sad, it is a really interesting story of a really lovely man who I am delighted to say is a big part of the pod family.

So I hope you enjoy it.

To be totally honest, I hope you enjoy it.

Thank you.

Hello, Pod fans, Max here.

Just a heads up before we start our chat with Troy.

We cover a few very sensitive issues, obviously on the subject of racism,

of which Troy is an endlessly brilliant campaigner.

And we talk about suicide as well.

So please take care when listening.

We've got links to helplines and where you can go if you need support in the show notes for today's episode.

Here it is.

Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Over the summer, we're going to do a few more Life and Times podcasts, just like the ones we did during the pandemic when, frankly, we were desperate.

We loved them.

You did too.

So time to get to know a few more of the panelists.

Today, to be totally honest, we speak to anti-racism campaigner Troy Townsend, who was not a bad footballer, by the way.

On the books of Millwall, play with a few great players.

We'll talk about a life of extraordinary highs and of loss and of his more than decade-long fight to kick it out.

This is the Guardian Football Weekly

on the panel today.

Barry Glendenning, welcome.

Hello.

And of course, Troy Townsend is here.

A useful booking, considering the subject matter of today's pod.

How are you, Troy?

You ready to be grilled?

Not sure.

I'm half excited and half worried because of the two of you, but yeah,

it's a pleasure.

Absolute pleasure.

All right, let's have some stats, please, then.

Date and place of birth, full name on your passport.

Oh, you haven't got that information, so you're asking me.

All right, okay.

Yeah.

First of all.

We don't research these things.

First of August.

Have I got to tell you the date?

Yeah.

Yes, mm.

1965.

Wow.

Work that out really quickly if you want to.

Born in Hackney, mother's hospital that is no longer there, unfortunately, but it's a story of a theme of my life from my younger years.

All the buildings that I've frequented have been knocked down somewhere along the line.

What was the other one?

So,

full name on the passport.

Full name on the passport.

Troy Donahue, Townsend.

Oh, where does Donahue?

Donahue apparently was a for so my dad tells me.

I'm still not sure if I believe him though, but he tells me he was a famous actor back in the 19 blah blah.

So Troy Donahue.

And I denied the name because I thought what a weird name that is so anytime I was at school and they used to say you know you know what's your middle name I used to call myself Anthony so Troy Anthony because it had such a better flow and I liked the name but listen the age I'm at now you you can you can know it you can take the mick out of it if you really want to and uh share it to the world that's a strong name I think Donahue is an Irish pseudonym.

There's lots of Donahue's.

Is it really?

Are you trying to claim Troy?

Takeland Rice's spot.

I knew I had an affiliation somewhere along the line.

So look, tell us what growing up was like then in Hackney in the 60s.

To be honest, as I'm always going to be, Max.

That's what we want.

I don't remember a lot of my childhood.

We were

as a family with an older brother.

We were in Hackney for about three years.

four years

and then we moved very quickly to Wolfenstow in East London.

Remember the the name of the road, lovely road called Downsfield Road.

But my childhood, and it may become clearer later, very blurry.

I loved football.

I don't know where my love of football came from because my dad wasn't really a football type of man,

left home really early.

So mum was obviously the key figure in the house.

But I don't have many great

recollections of my well many recollections of my childhood and I'm not sure why.

it wasn't traumatic or anything like that.

It was just I don't know.

It's just a period of time where

I didn't, I just don't remember it.

And it's not a brain loss or anything like that.

It's just, I don't know if anything powerful came out of my childhood.

My brother's four or five years older than me.

He loved football the same way that I did.

I don't ever remember

going out.

We had a park not too far away from us, to be totally honest, a great park.

I don't ever remember.

I remember once going down the park when dad came round one day and we played sport.

But financially, it wasn't great in our household.

So you just, you'd go to school and you'd come back.

You know, it wasn't...

anything other than that.

I wasn't allowed out, so I couldn't play out that much.

And it wasn't until I got into

junior high that really I became a little bit of a rogue, totally honest.

And if I wanted to go out, I'd just go out.

But football was a common theme during my primary school.

I became the school captain.

I opened the brand new school that we moved to.

So we used to go to a school called Markhouse, which is knocked down.

And the new school, South Grove, I was the one selected to open the school.

I do remember that I wore my best shirt on that occasion because the mayor was also coming down.

My best shirt was this Superman shirt with these flying wing collars and everything.

Oh, yeah.

I'm sure

there is a picture of it somewhere, but I probably lost it.

So

cutting the ribbon

for the opening of the school

and then winning my first medal at football as we took the South Grove primary to a league title.

But I knew my influence early doors

because when we went to the new school, the PE teacher said, look, we're going to get you a brand new kit.

For some reason, Brazil was my favourite

team.

And I got them to buy a yellow kit with sky blue shorts and white socks.

So that's my claim to my early influence in my early years.

Were you significantly better than everyone else?

Oh, absolutely, Barry.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Look, we had some...

in the younger age group and it become apparent more as I talk about my

growing up.

It just seemed that my ability, and one or two others, I'm not going to say I was

the best, although being named captain at such a young age, there must have been a massive influence there, an influence in the colour of the kit.

But yeah, I believe, listen, I can remember a couple of other talents.

Andrew Grant was a little left-winger, he was an absolute amazing player.

Graham Hurst was the guy that at the time was scoring all the goals.

You know, these were my school friends.

We played in the same school team.

Mark Rogers, another one.

You You know, I remember those names because they were so significant in the early years of my life.

And I felt that those lads

were, I want this name better than me, there's no way, but they were up there, that's for sure.

And I enjoyed playing the game with them and always made sure that, you know, I tried to make sure that they were on my team when we were playing in the school program.

But it was a privilege to play with them growing up.

I'm not sure I recognised that at the time, but the fact that I can roll their names off just like that for me, yeah, they were a significant influence in in playing football so how so how young were you when you were like when you thought i'm gonna be a footballer i mean we all thought we were gonna be a footballer when we were seven but

i i wasn't going to be one but you were gonna be one max as early as possible

again i i don't know what age but as early as possible because I attached myself to that round thing.

It was never away from me.

It was never,

I always thought, and listen, TV back then for us, I couldn't really watch the TV.

You know, I couldn't watch the TV past a certain time

watching football or trying to watch football through the crack in a door in the front room whilst my mum's at the back washing up, not thinking that I've gone to bed was my earliest experience.

But I was galvanized by the game, the beauty of the game, the nature of the game, the

kind of

what it, what it meant, what it felt like just to play football what it felt like to score goals what it felt like to make a great pass it just

it got me it got me so I

don't know how early I started to believe it but honestly when I got to my double figure ages I kind of said it was the only thing that I ever wanted to do is the only thing that I ever wanted to do was play football nothing I had no visions of anything else and who did you support like who were your heroes support was Tottenham don't ask me why um again there's no kind of design as to to why it was totnam hotspur at the time you know many people say it's because my my dad you know or you know a close family friend i haven't got a clue um i haven't got a clue brazil um and brazil influenced me because of the 1970 world cup um because of

i don't know just one day the tip the black and white tv being on And I must have been watching highlights because that World Cup was in Mexico and then getting told to go to bed while the football was on but i can't because this guy called pele is on the screen and he looks like someone that i want to kind of you know share the kind of image of what he does i became influenced by his number i became influenced by the rest of his teammates

and then it's the final and so the highlights are on and mum says you got to go to bed

I can't go to bed.

They're on the fire.

I need to.

But it was one of them again where bed was upstairs.

I knew because I could hear what was going on in the kitchen.

I knew the plates were being clattered and what everything else.

So just before I went up to bed, I made sure the football was on.

So I turned it on and went up and obviously snapped back down, you know, quietly, door.

And I'm watching the final.

And then I hear those footsteps.

So, you know, I had to scuttle straight back upstairs.

I think I caught a significant part of it.

And that significant part meant that Brazil were etched in my kind of memory and love of the game as well.

And that famous number 10, which is the number that I then started to wear for my school team as we had a Brazilian kit and a number that I've kept kind of in my memory

and as part of my development and growing up because I wanted to be a Pele or a number 10 type player because after that heroes were Glenn Hoddle, you know, and

the way and style that he played.

But

there was no entry point where I thought where someone influenced my thinking as to to why why tottenh you know and it's been a lot of pain as you know max during that period of time and maybe i needed to be influenced in another way but yeah tottenham number tens pele glen hoddle just became synonymous with who i wanted to be and and that's where it all stemmed from

When we were putting the Guardian Football Weekly book together, there's a bit where we're trying to get photos of people playing football and you sent this team photo and you said, look, there's a few decent players in there.

I think, so you played in the same side as Teddy Sherringham, right?

Yeah.

As a kid.

Yeah.

Yeah.

With the first 10 yards in his head then when he was 14.

Listen, I always remember him as a real top quality player.

The biggest thing I remember about Teddy was not actually him playing on the field of play.

It's the fact that his dad

was at every single game and I thought his dad was part of the coaching staff because he always stood not too very far away from them as well and

Teddy would half-time, full-time, you know, whatever it was, the break was spent with his dad.

It wasn't spent with anybody else.

And I never had that.

I never had, you know, my parents have never ever watched me play football.

And I'm not looking for any sympathy here.

And I didn't think at the time that it mattered because your ability, you know, your quality, the way that you play and the coaching staff would take you on.

But I never had that going to the touchline and speaking to dad and getting his opinion or mum and getting their opinion on how I was playing or even just the significance of well done son and stuff like that.

And that has that stayed with me for quite a significant period of time.

I used to play for a team called Anaconda and honestly

I used to have to go Sunday school every Sunday.

You know, you used to dressed up into your nines, your favorite Superman shirt and you go to church because that's what mum said you had to do.

And because of my teammates who I've named, my school friends who I've named, they kind of said, we're playing for this team on a condo.

You know, you need to come and play, come and play.

I did not know how to broach that with mum.

I honestly,

and then one Sunday morning, rather than putting on my Superman shirt, I put on a tracksuit.

And she came up and she said, why are you not ready?

And I said, I am ready.

She said, but you've not got your...

And honestly, i can't repeat the words that were said to me but i stood strong

i stood strong and i went football and mac the manager came to pick me up and that was it i was attached but the team that i left anaconda for a team called beaumont and that's that picture that i shared with you um with

you know they weren't the big stars as as they are now teddy sharing and martin hays former arsenal jimmy carter former arsenal perry suckling uh michael Michael Jilkes, who wasn't in that picture, but Beaumont was the team of Wolf and Forest.

They were the team that everyone feared.

And I went and joined them.

And yeah, all of a sudden, I'm not only lining up with Teddy Sherringham at Beaumont Football Club, but he was already at Millwall.

And the manager, Brian Schirt, and scout Maurice Newman, they from Beaumont.

They had this attachment with Millwall and Crystal Palace.

So it meant that that was my first entry into going going into Millwall.

I think it was at 13, 14.

That's when I really believed that I was going to become a professional footballer when I first pulled on a kit.

And you were at Millwall for

how long?

And

why didn't it work?

Listen, it's not like the academy system now.

I think I was at Millwall for just nearly a year.

But Mac, who was obviously my former Sunday league manager, if he couldn't take me to training, which is in obviously South East London and I'm in East London, then I couldn't go.

It wasn't one of those where you

I didn't know how to bunk trains at that time.

I didn't know how to bunk a bus.

This is what my team, some of my teammates from East London were doing.

And if Mac couldn't get me there, then I couldn't go.

And there was always this, oh, Troy can't make it today, which,

you know, if you do that in today's terms, then that's it.

If you can't get to your whatever way, or they put cars on for you and stuff like that.

And when it came to like the year later and the summary of my attendance

and performance, it wasn't great.

So they kind of look, we can't continue like this.

And

like I said, my mum wouldn't take me football, my dad wouldn't take me football, my brother wouldn't take me football.

So it's, we can't continue like this.

Good talent, but

and that was, it just had a natural, natural end.

It wasn't even said to me, by the way, it was said to Maurice Newman, who was the Beaumont, like I say, scout or whatever you want to call him at that stage.

And that was it.

It was just a natural end.

Although I went to Crystal Palace for, because they had that connection with Crystal Palace, I went to Crystal Palace for six months, about six months, and John Cartwright, who was the England under 21 coach as well, and one of the most influential figures in my career, because I've never had a coach like John.

He taught me things about being on the ball, movement off the ball, you know, that I'd never, and that's no disrespect to anyone else that I had, but I'd never learnt before.

But John wasn't a decision maker, John wasn't the one that said, you know, make sure this lad signs for Palace and whatever else.

And again, a natural end, no performances

for Palace as an academy player.

And that was it.

It fitted out.

What age were you at this stage, Troy?

So I was 15.

15, going, I'm an August birthday, as you know, now.

So, you know, I'm the baby as such.

But in the end, Barry, I wasn't even attending school, you know, on a regular basis.

I was just turning up when I wanted to turn up.

But I even stayed on at school.

So, and the only reason I stayed on at school, I've got to be honest, like I said, I was good with figures and I stayed on to do accounts and commerce.

But the most important thing was that in the playroom, there was a bar football table.

And that's where I could be found most of the time.

to the point where the school just said, well, why are you still here?

Why are you...

I said, because of the, Have you seen that bar football table in there?

And so, yeah,

it's just an absolute mess.

The end of my kind of schooling period, the being released period, it was honestly, it was an absolute mess.

And while I'm not speaking from any kind of personal experience here, Troy, but I did notice as a kid, there are certain perks that come with...

being the star athlete.

Did you get to enjoy any of those at all?

What kind of perks are they, Barry?

Female attention.

Yes, absolutely.

Listen, when you are, exactly, when you are the,

listen, football was my thing, but I loved athletics.

I loved cricket.

I was a decent athlete.

I was a good cricketer, you know, so when you hold all those kind of multiple

kind of different experiences and being able to be paraded as such, you know, at the front of the assembly, you know, when everyone's sitting down in the assembly and Troy Townsend, and you know, you go up and you

do, you attract a lot of attention, and I was a little bit susceptible to that attention.

I

can't lie, I can't lie.

Seems a good place to end part one.

Barry living vicariously through

Troy Townsend 40 years ago.

Anyway, we'll be back in just a second.

Hi, Pod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

Football Weekly is supported by the Remarkable Paper Pro.

Now, if you're a regular listener to this show, you'll have heard us talk before about the Remarkable Paper Pro.

We already know that Remarkable's the leader in the paper tablet category, digital notebooks that give you everything you love about paper, but with the power of modern technology.

But there's something new and exciting.

The remarkable paper pro move.

Remarkable, a brand name and an adjective, man.

Yeah, it's their most portable paper tablet yet.

It holds all your notes, to-dos, and documents, but it's smaller than a paperback and an incredible 0.26 inches thin, so it slips easily into a bag or jacket pocket.

Perfect for working professionals whose jobs take them out of the office, like maybe a football journalist, Barry.

Although not like you.

A proper football journalist, Matt.

Exactly.

Too much technology draws us in and shuts the world out.

This paper tablet doesn't.

It'll never beat or buzz to try and grab your attention, so you can devote your focus to what or who is in front of you.

It has a display that looks, feels, and even sounds like paper.

Think and work like a writer, not a texter.

And the battery performance is amazing.

No worries about running out of power before the end of extra time.

The remarkable Paper Pro Move can keep going for up to two weeks.

And if you do need to recharge, you can go from naught to 90% in less than 45 minutes, Barry.

Fantastic.

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If it's not what you're looking for, get your money back.

Visit remarkable.com to learn more and get your paper tablet today.

Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was the new game day scratchers from the California Lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question: Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

A little play can make your day.

Please play responsibly, must be 18 years or older to purchase play or claim.

Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly, The Life and Times of Troy Townsend.

Part two is going to be slightly different.

It's a very sensitive subject.

We've obviously talked about it with you before, Troy, before recording this, and we're not springing anything on you.

And obviously, if you don't want to talk about it at any point, that's fine.

I don't care.

It's totally your choice.

Your Twitter bio reads, My heart will remain well and truly broken, right?

And for ages, I didn't know what that was about, and I didn't feel it was my business to ask.

Um, but it relates to your son, Curtis, who died in a car accident on the 15th of December 2001 on the way to a Chessnet FCA Way game.

You were the manager of Chestnut at the time.

Um, tell us about Curtis.

Oh, wow, what uh

I'm I'm going to say anyway, aren't I?

What a beautiful young man.

Followed many of my traits.

I've been in the game.

Listen, it's my firstborn.

He was just a beautiful child.

He was released by Wimbledon at 16.

So he had a career very similar.

He was at Leighton Orient.

He went to Wimbledon.

He was part of their big, massive FA Youth Cup run, and the likes of Joby McEnough and Mikel Ledgerwood, you know, those players were part of his team.

And I had a business at the time, so I ran a sports development company, my own company with my business partner, Steve Brown,

called Ultimate Sports.

And, you know, I saw him and I said, don't worry, don't worry.

I was also, like you said, the manager of Cheshan Football Club.

So I said, don't worry, look, we'll get you back.

You know, we'll get you back to where you need to be.

I think he was suffering from a bit of confidence, not understanding why he was released.

And I basically took him under my wing as such, as any parent would and brought him into the business as a sessional coach and and he became a new signing for me as Chesant's right back.

Kurt was

just

you know the stories I heard afterwards

from all sorts of people all sorts of people about Kurt's influence on them, you know, about how this mature young man

was just a diamond, a star, you know, one of those, you you know, that old sand that we used to have.

I'm not even sure if you can say it now, but he'd cross the road and help

an old woman, you know, with her shopping and stuff like that.

And

he was very mature, very, very mature.

And I don't disrespect a certain age group at that age, but like he was doing things, talking about things, talking about the future, which obviously I didn't at that time,

in a very mature way.

And, you know,

we became bonded again.

And, you know, he became part of my new family and part of

our new life for him.

You know, so

a handsome young man, just very proud of

the way that he developed and what he was creating for his own life.

And obviously, I wanted to play now a very significant part of that.

And I wanted to just

bring him into my arms, you know, being released is a massive thing, as we've said.

And I didn't want him to go.

I remember my business partner, Steve Brown, like I said, who's manager of Slowntown Football Club.

It was a massive football club, much bigger than Chestern FC, by the way.

And he said to me, like, I think it was about a month after I signed Kurt, let me have him.

I went, no.

And he went, go on, we're a bigger club.

I said, I know you are.

But my instincts was that I wasn't ready to let Kurt go.

you know, and I wasn't ready to say, look, you've only had a month with me, but look, you can earn another 50 quid with Steve and you complain definitely in front of more than two people and a hot dog.

But I wasn't ready to let him go.

So Steve said it tongue-in-cheek, but I know he meant it.

I know he meant it.

And I was just like, no, you can't have him yet.

I'm not, no.

But yet we're business partners.

We see each other every day.

I know Kurt would have been in safe hands because of the way that Steve managed and what love he had for him.

But I just wasn't ready.

I wasn't ready to let go.

So

he stayed with me and

you know

a couple of months into

so he would have signed in August

and by December that there was that fatal accident.

That day is obviously etched on your mind and I don't mind if you don't want to talk about it but I

can you talk about it or is it too difficult?

It's obviously difficult.

It may mean that this pod breaks up a little bit but

I remember the day like it was yesterday.

It's 22 years ago in December.

But I can't remember things from nine months ago, but that day is

obviously the unforgettable, you know.

There's two things about the day that stick out more than most.

And

we normally, so we have a teammate that picked us up, And

I'm not going to mention his name because it was,

you know, he was driving the car at the time.

But we used to go into a cafe

every match day and have, you know, every

away game, sorry, not the home games because we'd eat at the club.

And,

yeah, what do you want?

What do you want?

What do you want?

You'd go out and go and get the food.

And this time, Kurt didn't want to come out.

And I couldn't understand it.

I just, we always got out.

I didn't make a big thing of it, of course, but he was sitting behind me.

He was in the back seat, and he just said, No, I don't want nothing to eat.

And it's like, why do you want nothing to eat?

And I honestly

remember like standing at the front of the

shop that we were in,

looking into the cut, or just looking in that direction.

And I don't know if I'm going mad, but I didn't see Kurt.

I saw a silhouette.

I didn't think, obviously, you you don't think anything of it.

As far as I'm concerned, out of my eyes, I didn't see Kurt.

I saw a silhouette.

And

listen, we got the Samsung, we got look, the game was supposed to be postponed.

It was such a go.

It was the middle of winter.

It was snowing.

We'd cancelled the coach that we were due to have.

And we're all sitting there in the car park in cars.

Now, I'm with the chairman.

Curtin would normally, this is the second thing, would normally come into the chairman's car with me.

But he stayed in the original car that picked us up.

And all of a sudden, we get a message.

The ref has said the game's on and we've got to get from Cheshant to Luton, Barton Rovers.

And we're now in a trail of cars, six, seven cars, which is never ideal.

But, you know, anyone that's experienced non-league football at that level will know.

And so we set off and we're on this journey, and the roads are a little bit obviously difficult.

And

I remember getting to the ground and again, no fault.

You get to the ground, you

wait for everyone to pile into the changing room.

There's four people in the car that Kurt was in and they're not there.

And

I've made a phone call at

2.06, 207 to Kurt.

It's gone straight to voicemail, which was strange.

And where are you?

Where are you?

And I was quite angry,

not thinking anything else, but where are you?

Like, I should have put the team sheet in seven minutes ago.

I've had to put the team sheet with

three of the four players that are in their car in the start and 11.

And then

I don't get a message back, but a team sheet's gone in.

This is where everything then becomes blurry because I cannot remember.

I know we lost 2-0.

I cannot remember the game.

And some people say to why did you...

And because the thing was, we still thought they'd be on.

No one is thinking the worst.

We I got out, I remember the end of the game was a bit feisty.

We lost to nil, there's a little bit of things going on at the end of the game.

I've got involved,

and then someone has tapped me.

One of the players who was injured has tapped me and said, Oh, you've got to go straight to the hospital.

What do you mean, I've got to go to the hospital?

When something's wrong, you've got to go to the hospital.

Um, so I left there,

got a lift from that player.

We've gone straight to the hospital.

Honestly, again, I'm not thinking

anything bad at all.

I'm just thinking, I don't even know what I was thinking on that journey.

But the minute you get to the hospital and there's a police officer waiting to meet you.

And the first thing I said to him, what's wrong?

Where's Kurt?

What's up?

And he said, I can't tell you.

So I thought, hold on, you've brought me all the way here and you can't tell me.

And it wasn't until

they got me into the room and and said there's been a

there's been a fatal car crash and and Kurt's passed

um

I remember

so I might take your time mate

I remember immediately breaking down I remember

falling to the floor and and and

Just I don't know I don't know

but the worst thing I had to do the worst worst thing I had to do was ring his mum up

and tell her that the son that she's left in my care and you know taken to football as we always do is not coming home tonight.

I don't think I'll ever have anything as bad as that to

tell anybody again.

And then rest of it is an absolute blurb.

I know my phone is, I don't know how people get to know bad news so quick but my phone is going

off and off and off and I can't answer it and again Steve

my business partner I don't know where Slaughter playing that day but for some reason he seemed to be at the hospital almost 10 50 it seemed like that time didn't matter anymore And he was just amazing in the way that he shielded everything from me.

But

all of a sudden, all these people,

the news traveled like there was no tomorrow.

Kurt was the only one that was taken.

There were a couple of horrendous injuries for a couple of the players who couldn't play again, by the way.

And yeah, that was, it was just

obviously a day that I'd never forget, a day that I want to forget.

I remember going out that night, so we'd come back from the hospital.

I'm having to tell the kids, um

which again was emotionally i don't think they knew what was going on you know but i had to tell the kids and then um

i remember me and steve went out about 3 a.m that night and just drove around the streets um

just to clear my head and we ended up at mcdonald's in laytonstone I don't even think we went in and we just fell asleep in the car till about five.

So I've now got my missus ringing me thinking something's going on.

We just fell asleep in the car till about 5 a.m.

as the enormity of what happened.

You know, it was hit me anyway, but the enormity of what happened just kind of like, yeah, and we just dropped asleep.

And then

that was the beginning of, well, it was the worst day of my life.

It was the beginning of a very, very difficult and period that

I've got to be honest with you guys.

I don't know how I'm here today.

I honestly don't know how I'm here today.

Suicidal thoughts.

I was at a train station

and I made my last call, what I thought was my last call.

I've always looked at, I haven't got any lampshades up here, but I've always looked at lampshade and thought, is that the best way to do it?

I just couldn't function,

I couldn't be who I was, you know.

A piece of me had been ripped out out of the whole of our family, and I just didn't know how to recover.

Sorry, guys.

Grief is such an individual thing.

And

I suppose the question is: sort of, have you coped?

How?

And it changes over time, right?

It never, it's not the same, but it doesn't go away.

But how do you think you have managed to,

you know, be to to

sort of survive that?

I honestly can't tell you.

I don't know how to tell you.

Steve was.

you're hearing me keep mentioning Steve because Steve,

you know, as my business partner, my best friend, you know, we'd spent every day together once we formed a relationship as business partners.

He was an ex-player as well.

I couldn't stand him as a player, by the way.

He was so flashy.

He was so, he had everything, you know, and dripped with confidence and

hated him, hated him.

And then our two partners said, why don't you two get together and form a business?

And I remember, I have to say this because I need to lighthearten myself a little bit, but I remember sitting across a table here, almost being interviewed by this person that I hated with a passion because of his ability to play football.

And we're going into this relationship that, you know, became more than just business partners.

And

he did everything.

He did everything for me.

He, you know,

anything that needed to be fielded was fielded by Steve.

And look he's no longer with us as well and that's another story but

when you say how did you survive those two weeks towards the funeral

I now realize that the build-up to the funeral

any funeral

is the horriblest thing that anyone can do after the experience of losing someone but what happens after the funeral in many many cases is that everyone as you would expect goes on with their daily lives you know

And I wasn't allowed to just go on with my daily life, in a sense.

And I was grateful for that because there were times when I went missing.

So, Troy's, where is he?

Was he gone?

And he'd look for me and he'd hunt down every single place that he thinks that I could be.

He tried to drive me back to work, although at one stage, he did it.

And it was the worst thing that I ever did, standing in front of 150 young children at school that Kurt worked at to explain or take all the plaudits about my son.

I wasn't ready for that.

It was 10 days later, I wasn't ready for that.

But I went and he made me go.

And I'm not saying it wasn't a good thing, but I had someone there to drive me all the time.

You know, make, get out, keep doing things, don't.

And he did it with so much love and purpose

that I think that's one of the reasons why I survived.

And the other thing is, is you become,

I don't know if this is wrong.

And when people listen, they might say,

you become mentally strong

to

everything around you.

You develop a, I don't think I'm mentally strong.

I'd never say that I'm mentally strong.

As you can tell, it took me seconds to break down, but you become mentally strong against

everything, you know, everything.

But I didn't want to see people.

You know, I felt that people were talking about me.

Isn't he the one that lost his son?

And I had a friend, again a friend um

you know

we bumped into each other and one of his things was life goes on doesn't it

and it was i've hated that phrase ever since then because the worst thing that he could have said to me when everything was so raw so

max i don't know how i'm sitting here i'm sitting here because i've got good people around me I'm sitting here because I say I don't know how and then I'm explaining how.

I'm sitting here because I've become mentally strong, which I've needed throughout the course of my life.

And I'm sitting here because I don't want to fail Kurt and I don't want to fail Steve, who's obviously, like I said now, not with us.

I don't want to fail them.

You know, I know I said early doors that, you know, I wanted to I wanted to take my own life and everything because of all the regrets, but I don't want to fail them.

I need to continue to

drive legacies of those two amazing people.

And obviously, I don't want to bring heartache to my own family.

So

that might be the reasons why.

Do you get that talking about it can be a great comfort to others?

You know, I'm really conscious.

I don't just want to get somebody on a podcast to make them cry to go, oh, well, that's a good bit of a podcast.

Someone's crying.

But actually, people talking about these things can be incredibly helpful to other people going through similar things.

I never did.

So I couldn't talk to anyone.

I didn't go, everyone was saying, Troy, you need to go to a a counselor.

It was so extreme.

No, I'm not going to a counselor.

I don't want to speak to anyone.

I don't want to speak to anyone that doesn't know who I am, that doesn't know the situation, that doesn't want to appreciate what I may go through, may be going through.

I've never, ever wanted to do that.

And then,

I don't know, five, six years ago,

was it five?

I can't remember when that, but I opened up on another podcast for the first time, exactly the same as this.

and the response to that showed me that actually there's people so much in a similar situation than me who resonate who took a key bit of advice who you know were appreciative of me sharing what had happened

that it became easier and I use easier with just I you know just a little bit I started to write some I'm not a great writer you know how my my schooling went, but

I started to write some thoughts down, you know, of difficult periods, of Father's Day, of Curtis's birthday, of

all these types of things, and kind of reflected my thoughts at those times.

Christmas,

the day that he passed, you know, the day that he passed, 10 days before Christmas, I've never enjoyed Christmas again.

Never enjoyed Christmas again.

But I felt that people,

if anybody, somebody could take heart from what I was saying, then,

you know, it's got to be a good thing, you know?

And

it seemed that the reaction I was getting, the response, I read every note that every last word, and I may not acknowledge it because that then becomes difficult, but I read every last word that people send to me.

So I get DMs, I get responses in comments, you know, I'm putting these out publicly and

I feel very grateful for all the people I've connected with.

There was another thing.

Sorry.

There was a guy who DM'd me on Twitter, and I don't normally read my DMs in Twitter, and said, I've seen your pinned tweet.

And he said, was that game at Barton Rovers?

And he said, because if it was, I think I was playing.

And I remember that there was something going on about one of the players.

I didn't know it was your son.

Honest, I kept that DM for about four weeks.

I couldn't respond to it because it took me right back there.

But actually I did because I had to thank this guy, whoever he was, who was only 18 at the time, same age as Kurt.

You know, then now, or when he sent it, he was 33.

And he said he changed my whole perspective on life and has made me a better parent.

He's now a father of two kids.

But he just felt that he had to reach out to me.

And it's those things that show me that actually, Troy, maybe you do need to speak about it more when you're strong enough to speak about it more.

And yeah,

it's things like that that...

I'm not saying make me better about myself because,

but it means that I'm sharing.

And like you said at the outset there, Max, you know even if one person and apparently it has

you know maybe I'll keep doing it maybe I won't I don't know Troy I read an interview you did talking about Kurt once before

and I got the impression you were sort of still beating yourself up over a lot of things that really weren't your fault you know that

not letting him go to play with your mate Steve's team you know saying oh it wouldn't have happened if I'd I'd let him go or the fact that your your last last words were sort of words of irritation into a message mind or you know telling him to hurry up where are you and

do you still feel that way I mean it just seemed to me to be quite

daft isn't the word but you you're you're punishing yourself for for stuff that just isn't your fault yeah Barry that's what everybody says and yes I still feel that way you know I feel that if I didn't bring him into my circle I feel that if I i didn't sign him for chestnut i feel that if i demanded that he came into the chairman's car that day

there's so many things that i feel responsible for

and of course like the message that you've said there is what everyone says is troy you can't

but put it this way I can't stop beating myself up.

My son's no longer here.

I felt that I had a part to play in it.

Once I knew he'd pass, I don't know if if it was straight away, but

I did make another phone call to that voice note to tell him I'm sorry for shouting.

Sorry for

just sorry.

Who am I talking to?

I've talked to a voice note.

I still have his number in my phone.

I can't erase the memory.

Beating myself up is because, I don't know, I was doing what any dad would do, but then I felt responsible for the last leg of of his life

the thing is Barry's totally right but that's it's totally understandable that I presume anyone who has been through anything like this will question every single tiny moment that leads up to it but as Barry said it is you know life is sometimes bad shit just happens

but look I appreciate you so much talking about that Troy because I think it will help a lot of people and and we had a really interesting question from Michael that says to you know does the loss of Kurt fuel Your righteous indignation desire to make the world a better place I read somewhere that you you think he'd be proud of of what you do

And and I think he would be

listening I know he would be because

He was very much of the same mold, you know, he was very much

He was such a caring, giving person at such a young much more than what I ever was at that age, you know, I resented everything at that age because my football career was no more you know the thing that I thought was going to last a lifetime didn't and he was

obviously didn't take that element from me but he was such a loving caring person to every human being but

I wanted to stop coaching I wanted to you know obviously I took a break from chesnant and it's another story in itself I do think that my

desire for change and my desire for

making football a better place, which ultimately impacts in other areas, and

being keen

to never let that voice go

has been driven by a number of factors.

And definitely, Kurt

is one of them.

Because I just want to continue to make him proud.

I want to continue for him.

I believe he's here.

I'm not a spiritual person.

I'm not someone who, I don't, you know, after my Sunday school experience,

church wasn't really the thing for me because Sunday school was stopping me from playing football.

But

I believe so much

about how he's driven our future.

And that's not just my future, by the way, that's the future of our kids.

And I know how much he would be very proud of Andrews' career and, you know, would have been there every game that we were there.

And, you know, all of that.

And the blessings that I've continued to have.

Listen, I've had some difficult times in life, as I've mentioned, but actually,

some of the blessings that have been bestowed on me have been because of Kurt.

I'm absolutely

sure of that.

And so I will continue to

drive for as long as I've got and to try and make things different because I know that he's sitting up there going, if you stop now, you know, you've wasted all this time.

So, you know, I know that he's there and he's willing me on and he

wants me to continue to

to make him proud.

And so that's what I try to do every day.

And that's what we'll talk about in just a second.

Back in a sec.

HiPod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Rob says, having listened to Troy being being interviewed before, how he got his foot in the door at Kick It Out is very inspiring.

It'd be good to hear more around that and how he eventually became the gaffer.

Is that just your competitive spirit?

You were there and you just, you wanted to run this thing?

Oh, look, I have to tell people,

I don't run Kick It Out.

So many people have said that.

You are Kick It Out.

You are the, but you know, there's a great team at Kick It Out.

I'm a small element of a small team,

but I'm probably the most visual, and that's what makes people think that I'm whoever I may be.

My title is the head of player engagement.

I work religiously to educate, to inspire, to support, to guide

in this space.

And obviously, racism is a topic that you can either take it or leave it.

It almost seems that way in this day and age.

But my experiences, the experiences of so many players now

is the thing that drives me and keeps me going.

You know, know, I talk to parents on such a

regular basis.

I'm fueled by the passion that

I said passion, I don't like when people say passion, but I'm fuelled by the fact that football needs to do better and has continually needed to do better.

And if I can be the stick that kind of keeps holding football to account, and I know football doesn't like it,

that is beyond belief for me that football doesn't like someone that campaigns against racism and discrimination because I have to question some of the kind of legalities around it and what players should be doing and all of this kind of stuff.

I can never get my head around that by the way.

I've got myself in trouble at times.

People say the wrong things, but how can I say the wrong things when we're talking about trying to make the game a better place for everyone to experience?

Not just those that walk on the field of play, those that are

employed in the background or parents who have to visually watch their child being discriminated against and how can I be saying the wrong things you know and in 2023 that we still have to have the discussion about the protection of these people being responsible and making sure that people hear the strong and powerful messages or the stories of victimization that continue to exist I don't know how much more I need to be talking about it for

and when I say the game I mean the whole game I mean FIFA I mean UEFA I mean all of those big entities

that really have the power to to make the change that I believe that the good majority of people want to see.

Yeah, it's always struck me, you know, that we have had this conversation so many times, right?

And on this pod, on the radio, everywhere.

And the number of times where you've just sort of said, I'm tired, because the point is some people,

somebody was on the radio the other day saying, we don't need activism anymore.

Football's fine, you know, and it was like a middle-aged white man saying, you know, we just want football for escapism, you know, and you're like, and you're sitting, I'm watching going, I can't fucking believe you're saying that from that position of privilege.

Like, are you completely

totally unchallenged?

Because football isn't for everyone.

If,

why am I telling you this?

You know it.

You know, if black players get racially abused, whether they play well or they play badly, or if, you know, discrimination is happening to anybody.

So I don't even know what my question is now, Troy.

I just, I find it, I suppose it is, but, but, and this is someone, and I am someone who has not experienced this, and I guess

to affect change,

does it mean that people at the top of the game, in every part of it, have to be it has to have a broader selection of people, right?

People who will have experienced this.

No, no, it has to be a broader selection of people, there has to be diverse leadership,

but ultimately, and I was having a conversation with some real prominent people the other day who we were all sharing our frustrations over

a bite to eat.

The only way it's going to change is when it

affects finances.

It's the only way it's going to change.

We've seen it.

We've seen the Super League, you know, the fallout of the Super League

and the galvanisation of so many that that breakaway group were not going to break away.

But that was all about finance.

We can punish teams five points, whatever it may be, for financial irregulations.

We're happy to take those points away because financially they're not doing things correct.

Why have we

listened?

The FA have just introduced a thing at grassroots where they're going to look at taking points away.

It's great because what happens in grassroots honestly will fill up the whole pod, but

why is it that we're not even contemplating that at senior level?

Why is it that Vinicius Jr.

has to have

six experiences of the most extreme racism, seven experiences this season alone,

and yet still we're talking, we're just talking.

Why, why does why is it right that someone whose talent and ability enables them to share that talent and entertain the football world, you know, fans and whatever else, why is it that but they can be subjected to

the most horriblest elements, you know, effigies hanging off of bridges.

Is that not enough to say,

how do we protect this individual?

And how do we protect teams?

And how do we impact on clubs?

The clubs, the fans are their clubs.

You know, clubs are responsible for their fans.

No matter what they're doing in any way, why can we not apply the strongest possible sanctions at that moment?

Who's at the head of all these organizations?

Whenever they talk, it's just talk.

It's nothing more, it's not action, it's not

driving the situation forward and being the leaders in this space, no matter what country it's in.

And it's not just a football problem, we're all aware of that.

But everyone talks about how football can influence society, you know, in

you know, in all these different factors, in all these different areas.

Players take their time to do so much,

so much,

but yet we can't influence on racism and discrimination.

We can't be a beacon for how to do it right or how to challenge it or how to sanction it, which means that we're then open to these players being discriminated against.

And obviously, my big focus is around the racial abuse, although I do touch on other elements.

We're happy for them to continue to receive that abuse.

And I just,

I cannot wrap my head around it.

And when you get these people, like the person that you said,

you know, it's only a bit of, it's only language, isn't it?

It's only a bit of, ah, that effigy.

What's that?

It's only a doll hanging from a bridge.

It's got no significance.

They've never walked.

Max, I think I said to you one of our first meetings, one of our first conversations, walk in my shoes.

Just walk in my shoes at any given moment.

I'm going to tell you this story of what happened to me a couple of weeks ago.

I left.

I'd had a very good afternoon.

Well, the game wasn't great, but watching Tottenham versus Crystal Palace.

I had a great afternoon.

Was it Conte or?

Keely, it doesn't matter.

It would have been bad.

I know that.

It was bad.

Full stop.

It was bad.

It was the day that Hung Ming Sung got racially abused by a Crystal Palace fan.

And I've walked out of Spurs, a place that I go quite a number of times, and I've just said goodbye to Chris Powell.

And I've crossed the road.

And I do not believe this person was a fan, by the way, so I don't want to put anything against Spurs or Crystal Palace fans.

And Tottenham High Road is chock a block,

as always is.

I've left an hour later, but yeah.

So I've tried to cross the road to go and get myself an Uber in front of this van that is not moving.

As I've turned round, this guy's face is going purple.

And I can lip read because he's calling me a monkey, he's calling me a black this and he's effing and he's blight and he's raging.

And I think to myself, what's he raging at?

The traffic's not moving so his windows wound up I've turned round and I've gone to his window are you okay and he's it's almost like I'm not there he is still raging it's a work fan he's got no colours on that's why I don't think it was a fan at all um but he's raging at me you blackard you effing monkey get out of the way

and you know at that moment a couple of things went through my head I can either start pulling the handle of the door which is never going to open and whatever else I could punch the windscreen.

What does that do?

And I stood in amazement.

And actually, I thought, just can you imagine this?

Troy Townsend on

Tottenham High Road, you know, having an altercation and this.

And then the lights went green and he managed to get through the lights and across the road.

And I was like, all I did was try and cross the road.

That's all I did.

in front of a stationary van

three weeks ago or four I don't know when the game was four or five weeks ago and that's when I realized that you know what no matter what we do no matter how much we try and influence no matter how many people say I saw you talking on yeah thank you like keep that there's always going to be those who if you don't mind me saying don't give a shit don't give a shit well we'll keep we'll keep on keeping on that's the only feel like it's the only that is like the least we can do I want to talk a bit about Andros not that I ever bring him up when you're on the pod

He basically got England to, was it the World Cup in 2014?

Like, he played one game, he qualified, you know, he scored a couple of goals or something.

And I just sort of thinking,

as the dad of the guy that does that at Wembley, is it Wembley?

What is that?

It was at Wembley.

It was at Wembley.

Listen, you're taking me through all the emotions today.

I won't cry at this one, but it is such an emotional thing to

everything

that your child puts into trying to make it.

And obviously, the family, the family are an important part of that.

I remember Andrews telling me, so it was a Friday night, it was Montenegro,

and it's two qualifiers left.

I remember him texting me, I'm starting about midday.

And I was just walking into Watford Football Club.

And I was like, oh, you know, brilliant, amazing.

I'm like, damn, I just want to get to Wembley now.

I just want to get to Wembley.

I think I delivered the worst session that I've ever delivered because I didn't really care.

Got down to Wembley, got down to Wembley, I don't know, half past six, whatever it is.

And I flew down Wembley Way.

I literally flew down Wembley Way.

I like to watch his warm-up.

And all of a sudden, my son is at Wembley, the field of dreams, with an England kit on.

And again, I feel that we are very blessed at that period of time for him to do that.

and

I'm shitting myself throughout the whole game because I don't want him to make a mistake.

I just, all I'm worried about, don't make mistakes, please, don't make mistakes.

And get on the ball, do what you normally do.

And he's doing it, but I've got a face of frustration.

Like, I'm scared.

I'm scared.

He's had a great first half.

I get told off at half-time by my misses because apparently my face, I'm too tense and it's

relaying on the pitch.

And I'm like, how can it relay on the pitch?

Like, do you know what I mean?

There's 80-odd thousand fans.

My face is,

guess what?

He does just after half-time.

He makes this great run down the line, crosses, Rooney shot.

Sorry, well-beck shot, Rooney finish.

And she almost looked at me and said, Yeah, I told you so, didn't I?

And it's because I'd relaxed in the second half, I'd kind of, you know, lost all the tension in my face.

When he scored, he scored the third goal that night.

I may have,

and because you two know the way that I walk, I may have ran down the stairs a little bit, you know, cheering and whatever else.

And

it's almost like an out-of-body experience of joy, of glee, of

love, of

everything came down to that moment.

And he's running towards us.

He doesn't even know where we are in the ground.

You know, it's the first time we've watched him at Wembley in an international and in an England international.

And he's done his knee slide, which nearly put him out of the final game.

But I've never seen my son do a knee slide.

No, no, he did one knee slide.

But I'm thinking, wow, he must have enjoyed that, you know, and all that emotion is years and years and years

of doing the things that you do to support your child.

I don't know what level that takes you to, but it takes me, it...

it's just the best feeling ever.

And I'm probably not even doing it justice in the way that I'm describing it.

And I actually thought that he played better in the second game, which was against Poland on the Tuesday night.

We won 2-0.

That was a game we had to win.

If we lost, Poland would have gone through and we would have had to have gone into the playoffs.

I felt he played better on that night.

Didn't score, didn't assist, but hit one cracking one off the bar.

But just immense pride watching him run around Wembley Stadium in an England kit in that white shirt, like

playing the way that I know he can play as well.

You know, he didn't let anybody down.

As a matter of fact, the raw when he came off both times

was just unbelievable.

The expectation and everything.

And it was a really, really good period for him, obviously.

But then, obviously, the other thing was the disappointment of getting injured.

Well, being taken out by Greg Peters at Stoke City in the March, which then meant that he missed the World Cup finals.

Here's a question I've always wanted to ask:

given all that you've done for him, do you ever just ask for 60 grand?

Andres is very generous.

Listen, I'm so proud the way that he's grown up, the way that he's managed everything around him to be totally.

Listen, he's still a young man, he's had a few dips, he had a betting band, didn't he?

I think it's public, and

you know,

but he's managed himself and his wealth amazingly and it makes me so proud that there are not these continued stories of of towns in that he doesn't drink he's never smoked he doesn't like going out you know so actually all the things

sounds like me

sounds like a boring

But he look, he's very much a family-orientated young man who, you know, because of the game, has a wealth bigger than anything that I could have imagined any one of my family members would have had.

And he's a generous soul.

I've never asked for 60 grand before, that's for sure, but he's always looked after as a good idea, Troy, isn't it?

It might be a good idea, yeah.

But he's a very, very generous soul,

and I'm very, very proud of him.

Troy, you said earlier that your dad didn't go to watch you play when you were trying to make it.

Did you

sort of deliberately go out of your way to make up for that with your boys by going to all their games?

Because I know,

you know, watching Troy now,

or sorry, watching Andros now involves...

I was just saying, if you're watching me now, you're watching the wrong sport, that's for sure.

Watching Andros now must obviously involve having to go to a lot of Everton games, which can't be much fun.

Are you tempted to say, look, you've made it.

My work is done.

I'm not going to Goodison Park Park again.

Remember that he was.

Listen, obviously, he's had an injury that's kept him out now for 13 months.

So actually, he was at Everton during the better times of the last two years.

You know,

there's a period where they won a few games.

He scored a few goals

and

he was performing well.

So it was absolute.

pleasure going to Goodison Park, really.

I remember one toxic game against Watford when they were 2-1 up with 12 minutes to go and lost 5-2.

I mean, try and explain that, by the way.

And it was a beginning of the end for Rafa.

But no, Barry,

I don't think there was a conscious decision.

I get what you're saying about my dad, but we were just growing up

with our children

wanting to support them in any way possible.

It's not an easy life out there, you know.

And yeah, we...

I was still coaching, so it's my missus that was actually doing most of the ferrying and all of of that you know but and then my elder son i was his coach on a sunday

but we were never going to stop so i stopped doing non-league football when andross joined yovil at 17 and i had to find out where on earth that was in the country by the way at the time

um

you must have got a fright when you saw how first well i did yeah i did absolutely and you know when someone i i used to say oh it's past those rocks and things and a little bit further on.

But yeah, that meant the end of me because I didn't want to miss a minute of his football as a professional footballer.

And that has continued all the way through those loans that he's had, through the England experience, through, you know, the many clubs that, you know, after all the loans stopped, Tottenham's, the Newcastles, you know, Everton's, Crystal Palace, we're there.

It's very rare that we're not there, you know, and

yes, you know, it's not like being on a on the side of a Tottenham Academy game and he knows and whatever but we share that love for everything that he does and it's replicated in the fact that the boys used to watch our girls go dancing yeah we had to fill them with popcorn and chocolate and that to convince them to come but they did and the girls and now the grandchildren all love going to watch you know, their uncle or their brother play football.

It's just one of those things that has been ingrained in us all the way through.

We're not a unique family.

I think there's many families that would always do the same.

But, you know, there's one time when there's literally about 10 or 12 of us because his kids now, he's got children now.

And like I said, the cousins and all of that, everyone wants to watch him play and continues to enjoy the time that he has left in the game as a player.

Troy, thanks for coming on, mate.

I don't know if you had a choice.

I don't know if you probably weren't allowed to say no, but

honestly, like, you are a good man.

And

it took us too long to get you on just to talk about football.

And I'm pleased we do because you are a huge part.

Don't we?

Yeah.

I mean, also, you said you spoke on another podcast exactly the same.

There's no

podcast exactly the same.

Well, I do know that

the big money transfer to that other pod is going to happen.

Oh, hello.

Oh, here we go.

Here we go.

All right, Troy.

Listen, thanks so much for your time.

I thoroughly enjoy it.

We'll, of course, speak to you on the pods in the near future.

Cheers, Troy.

Cheers, Max.

Cheers, Baron.

Thank you.

Thanks, Barry.

Oh, you're welcome.

That was the Guardian Football Weekly.

This is the Guardian.