Heartache for England again as Spain take Euro 2024 crown – Football Daily

This is the Guardian.

Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Ah, Scheit.

Michele Yazabal wins the Euros for Spain.

Why couldn't he have been offside?

He was almost offside, but that doesn't really mean a whole lot right now.

And then that Rice, gay, rice, triple-header, Olmo, off the line, and that was the chance.

Spain deserved it.

Olmo, Lamal, twice, could have put it beyond doubt.

They started the second half brilliantly.

Cole Palmer had given us hope.

An instant impact off the bench.

England were better when they just got it launched, but they didn't really perform.

Kane was so obviously injured, and just not enough of them played at their best and they needed to.

Dropping deep again, and so 58 years becomes 60.

It's okay, everyone.

We know how to cope with this.

We're good at this.

We can all be sad together, apart from those of you and us who are annoyingly delighted.

We'll answer your questions, and that, I'm sorry to say, is the Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Jonathan Wilson, welcome.

Evening.

How are you doing?

I'm very well.

Hello, Troy Townsend.

Evening.

Joe Bruin.

Evening.

Hi, Barry.

Hello, everybody.

How are you?

You massive bastard.

Chris says, I can already see Barry.

Sally Carveham.

Cheery eyes, gif.

Chris says,

I can already see Barry's smile reflecting off the trophy itself.

Sal says, will Barry go on an open bus chef's kiss parade, like a Pope Mobile of chef's kisses?

Asim says, I'd pay to get into Barry's WhatsApp group.

And Euro says, what a nail by terror, Baz.

Before I hear from the panel, let's get dispatches from Berlin with Johnny Lou and with Sid Lowe.

Hi, Max.

Hi, Barry.

Hi, everyone else.

I'm in Berlin, just come out of Jared Southgate's press conference where he has not resigned.

He hasn't blown a rocket up anybody's ass.

He's just been quite dignified and sad and

reflecting on a game where I think we could all agree Spain were better.

And you can come up with all these sort of technical, tactical reasons why

things panned out as they did.

You can look at moment, you can look at that, you know, the defending for the goals and stuff like that.

But I think basically Southgate just kind of emits this loser energy, doesn't he?

He just reeks of Middlesbrough and Crystal Palace, Cologne.

And, you know, the players feel that.

The players kind of take that loser energy off him.

And

they just

would, it never looked to me like they were ever going to shed that.

I mean, they've been pretty awful for most of this tournament.

He's...

you know, he's clearly a decent guy.

He's done a lot on the kind of the figurehead side of things.

But, yeah,

they were second best.

And I think the problem is,

you know, they've been essentially trying to win these tournaments in an authentically English way

without really clocking that the authentically English thing to do is not to win.

And once they square that circle, I don't know how they're going to do it.

I don't know how the next guy is going to do it.

Because I think Southgate will probably go.

There clearly is the talent there.

It just needs more of an idea.

I didn't see an idea there tonight beyond

get the ball into their half and let's see what one of these ballers can do.

And

that is not how you win a tournament.

It's not how you,

you know, it's not how you plan for a tournament.

England have basically improvised this in much the same way that I'm improvising this voice note.

And the ending

of both, I think you will find, has been quite underwhelming.

Good evening, Max.

Good evening, everyone.

If it's noisy, apologies.

I'm in the mix zone downstairs at the Olympic Stadium.

Most of the England players have been passed now.

As you can probably imagine, not looking too happy, waiting for the Spain players to come through, who I imagine will look quite a lot more happy.

I guess really, in the end,

the analysis of that game, at least from my point of view, I don't know how you lot saw it, was that ultimately Spain were just kind of too good, which is, I suppose, the story of the tournament, tournament, isn't it?

That they've had an exceptionally difficult run to the final.

They've beaten four world champions and they have just been the better team throughout this tournament.

In fact, at times it's felt to me a little bit, I don't know if I'm overplaying this because of course they're the team that I follow, like in a way Spain have elevated a tournament that wasn't that great and they've been the thing that have kind of

made for good games.

Not the only team, of course.

I've enjoyed watching Turkey, enjoyed watching Georgia, but they really kind of

been the best team by a considerable distance.

They deserve to win it tonight, although they went for a couple of nervous moments.

I thought they probably should have made it 2-0 a couple of times after the goal.

And then I was quite impressed actually that

they didn't have any kind of wobble or collapse after England equalised because I think given the way the game had gone, that's perfectly plausible.

And also, you look at the way this tournament's gone, and of course, Lemina Marlon and Nicole Williams are kind of a symbol of a new Spain, a direct Spain, a fun Spain.

I think a societal change as well, which has been quite powerful and quite important.

Roderie, brilliant in midfield, although for the tournament, Fabian, brilliant.

Danny Olmo, absolutely fantastic, and he's been involved in more goals than anyone else and then heads one off the line at the end here.

I think that sort of says something about

his contribution.

But I think one of the things that's probably worth picking up on is the contributions from players who might not necessarily have expected.

So today you get the two goals.

The first one starts with a brilliant pass from one fullback, Danny Carbajala, sort of outside of the boot pass.

The second one of course is provided by Cugarea.

Now we all knew Carbajala was going to start and I think we all thought in Spain at least that he's the best right back in the world.

But Cukorea's a bit of a surprise.

Then you look at the other contributions and this is where I kind of wanted to pick it up.

Rodri goes off today.

Fubi Mendi comes on and plays brilliantly and he's not played all the way through the tournament.

He only started, I think I'm right in saying that yes, he did only start the game in which they changed absolutely everyone.

So every player has played minutes except for Alex Ramiro, the third choice goalkeeper.

So he comes on and plays brilliantly for Rodri.

Mico Marino as sub is the guy that gets the winning goal against Germany.

Migalo Eya Thavala comes on today and gets the winning goal in this game.

Daniolmo starts the tournament as a substitute.

Doesn't really get into the team until the third game when they play all of the subs.

Then there's that slight doubt about whether his performance is good enough to take the place of Pedri.

He only actually eventually does that with Pedri's injury.

And I think there's a case to be made for him being pretty much the best player at the tournament with Rodri, with Lamin, with Nico, with Fabian.

And I was thinking this before this final about, you know, if you do an 11 of the tournament,

there'd be a lot of Spaniards in there.

and not very many English players to be honest.

And I think the feeling from Spain really is that this is a surprise victory because I think they thought that Spain had good players, but maybe not this many good players.

I think there were one or two doubts about the level of performance and then in particular the run that was going to take them through Germany and France and obviously Croatia and Italy in the group.

And so this is a massive success and also a surprise one.

And I actually think if if you look at the run they've had and the way they've performed and how superior they've been to everyone else, this is their best tournament success of all of them.

Now, obviously, the others, it was three tournaments in a row, so it doesn't match that yet.

But I think there's a sense now that this could be the beginning of something, which I think is slightly overplayed.

Because while Nico is very young, while Gavi, who's injured and was here tonight but not playing, is very, very young.

And obviously the mean is very young.

And you've got a handful of other pretty young players.

Kaukul Barci, who will almost certainly come in at centre-back in the not too distant future.

There's actually a fair few players who are coming towards the end of their cycle, may make it to the World Cup, but not much, much further.

Carver Howe is, I think, 32.

I think Calvin Amarata may well walk away after this tournament.

He certainly suggested as much in the interview just before it.

So maybe we're overstating it a bit if we think this is the basis of a whole new team already, but it's two or three new pieces that suggest that Spain are kind of back in the place where they should be.

Cheerio.

Thank you, chaps.

Okay, then.

I mean, Barry, Spain did deserve it, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

They were the better team.

I actually missed the first goal.

I was visiting the boys' room, came back in, sat down, didn't notice the score.

And then someone drew my attention to the television.

England's equaliser, I thought, was also well-deserved.

But once they scored it, they sat back, invited Spain on, and that was inviting trouble.

So it came to pass, Spain got the winner, which I think we all thought was offside.

and we I was waiting for it to be disallowed and and I'm be honest I'm still waiting I'm still sort of half expecting such has been some of the luck England have enjoyed in this tournament I'm still half expecting after the trophy presentation that that there'll be a late variety they'd all have to come back out again but um the better team did win yes absolutely John you you watched the last final with us and I don't know this doesn't feel as sickening because it wasn't penalties and even though that second goal was late for Spain and it seemed sort of quite easy for them, I just don't.

And perhaps it's the whole tournament as well.

I'm not sure.

But I don't have that sickness pain that I had last time.

No, what I remember is last time I said, I've seen that game before.

And I feel able to say that again this time.

In that England came up against a superior opponent in terms of being able to pass the ball and fell short.

And when you think back to Euro 2020, back in 2021,

England gave us a lot of hope by actually playing good football in the matches before.

Aside from 25 minutes against the Dutch, we haven't really seen that.

And

you might say, actually, that this was perhaps among the better England have played in the tournament.

It just wasn't enough to beat a team like Spain, who have so much attacking talent, have so much ability in midfield.

And

you don't want to scapegoat people, but certain England players had disappointing evenings,

specifically in midfield.

And

at the end of it, are you counting Kane in midfield because he drops deep?

Well,

I thought we'd have a whole part on Kane, actually.

So, I mean, you know, Harry Kane, if we're going to start on that,

the tragedy continues, doesn't it?

It's this story of the player who is so good

most of the time, but cannot win a bean,

continues.

And it's almost the look of acceptance on his face.

It's this sad cow-eyes.

I'm not sure I can do much more of this.

Maybe it's time for Harry Kane to retire from international football and just say, see ya.

Yeah,

it is gutting for him.

And actually, Troy, even if England had won it, it would have sort of been gutting for him in a way because he didn't deliver.

But

against the Netherlands, he actually was quite good in that first half, I thought and or better and he looked slightly fitter and sharper but you could just see it wasn't even sort of challenging for headers or or moving at all yeah it's a massive problem for me because I think if your manager knows that you're not 100% fit then your manager should be taking the decision out of your hands and I think Harry has played the whole of this tournament looking off the pace.

We say that and he's equal top goal scorer, isn't he?

One of six that is now the top goal scorer.

But we all know Harry Kane.

We all know the qualities that he possess.

As you said there, Max, you know, England were playing long ball to start with, weren't they, to try and stretch the game.

They're hitting long, Pickford's hitting long balls to Harry.

Harry hasn't won one.

So to see your captain come off and your talisman come off just before 60 minutes kind of prove that maybe you should have started with someone else.

And maybe that is harsh, but ultimately...

Because you've got to be ruthless.

You have to be ruthless.

And he was maybe in starting shore over Trippier.

That was slightly an easier decision, but I think the bigger decision would have been to have picked a fit centre-forward that may have enabled the squad, the team to have played better on the night.

We'll get to the first half at some point, Wilson, which was so boring that we got onto some sort of quite more interesting conversations about nothing to do with football.

But at halftime, Roderie is injured, and we all go, what a moment this is for England.

This is a great chance for us.

Zubi Mendi comes on and is brilliant.

Yeah, I mean, there's sort of two eternal factors in this game.

One is Kane never wins, and the other is Rodri never loses.

And you think, well, Rodri's out of the way.

She's got to get Kane out of the way, and maybe this could happen.

But as it turned out, Subhimendi was, I think, probably played better second half than Rodri played first half.

I mean, maybe that's me seeing him on the ball.

And

he's a more mobile player, I think, than Rodri, so maybe it's an aesthetic thing.

And

I'd want to see a lot more of him before I started judging his defensive quality.

But

he slotted in, he knew what he was doing.

And

you barely noticed Rodri wasn't there.

On the Kane thing, Max, I find it interesting that you seem to feel really sorry for him.

Troy seems maybe a bit angry with him.

Would that be a fair assessment, Troy?

Or are you, I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed.

No, I'm not angry in Harry.

I mean angry at the decision to play an unfit player for the whole or start an unfit player for the whole game.

It seems to happen with him a lot.

It does.

You're right.

You're right.

And in the same situation that we spoke about, or people have spoken about Martinez and Ronaldo not giving him a rest or a break or taking him off when he's ineffective.

There was a decision to be made today and I think that was the biggest decision out of the lot was whether he was fit enough to play in another final where the game passed him by.

Literally passed him by.

So should he have come off at halftime?

Should he have even started?

But my disappointment would be that the manager didn't take control of that situation.

Yeah, I don't disagree with that.

I sort of think he kept him on for as long as you can keep him on without it looking bad to take him off.

So if you take take him on half-time it's basically an admission of

i shouldn't have

but 60 minutes is kind of like oh he's done it's quite obvious he'd miss well i know

but we could we've seen that through the tournament yeah haven't we i think there was a there was a feeling at the netherlands game that actually look he did score and actually he was sort of dropping deep and doing those cane things and actually it could be all right all i would say to counteract that Max is that he was dropping deep, but there was no one going going long then, was there?

So he was dropping deep and it was ineffective.

He scored another penalty, a disputed penalty.

He was involved in some moments, and like we've said, he scored three goals.

So, but yeah, anyone looking at that knows that that's not Harry Kane.

But I mean, that was a problem tonight, wasn't it?

A couple of times, I mean, it wasn't often, but a couple of times in the first half, he got in crossing positions near the line and came to the edge of the box because he hasn't made the run across the near post.

And you sort of think, oh, hang on.

We were sort of laughing at BBC Pundits for saying Ronaldo was doing a really good job at running across the near post.

Actually, be really good at Kane and make a near post run yeah barry's just showing me the photo of him looking head bowed walking past another trophy with a massive grid on barry's face yeah i should point out but you can feel sorry for him as well right yeah

it's you have to feel sympathy for this guy who i think think of the harry kane arc right this was a guy that was doubted by his club back in you know 2013 2014 went on several loans to tougher him up arrived suddenly in spurs' team and suddenly was the best spurs player since

i think it was new Year's Day when he went to

the first Chelsea.

We were sitting there laughing, going, This bubble can't last.

He's not that good.

And it lasted for another eight or nine years.

And the thing is, the guy was absolutely unbelievable for a long time, and he carried a club for such a long time.

He was unbelievable last season for Bar Munich.

Yeah, well, except.

They didn't win anything.

Yeah, but that's a good guy.

And it's, yeah,

it's almost.

You know, the pooly door effects

in cycling or something like that.

But he doesn't.

But Harry Kane being Harry Kane is just this

rather glum figure.

And, you know, I think I have real sympathy for him because that's the biggest game of his life, apart from the other previous biggest games of his life where he's flopped.

And there are three or four of them now.

It's pretty sad to see.

Yeah.

And actually, when Watkins came on, Wilson, there was a noticeable difference.

And I don't think England...

They did actually find out that if you just kick the ball really far and high and bouncing at Spain,

it was actually where Spain looked weakest.

The Spain have looked slightly.

I mean, I don't think Spain is anywhere near as good as the Spain of 2008 or 2012.

I think probably for 2010, Spain was the best of those three iterations of Spain, but you know, that been nowhere near that level.

And throughout the tournament, they looked slightly shaky when you're quite direct.

So, whether that was Georgia running at them,

even with Audrey there, space opened up in that midfield because Fabian Ruiz played in quite an attacking way, so there were gaps there, Or you saw Germany when they went to goal down, went a bit more direct when they brought on Fulkrug, and Spain were a bit shaky.

So they're not as, I mean, I think maybe they're more exciting going forward than those great Spain sides, but then they're not as defensively solid, they're not as unbeatable as those sides.

And I think the frustration today, and maybe you'd say throughout the tournament, is that the thing Southgate's been so good at, if you think when he first came in as England manager, that first squad he picked, he leaves that Rooney, for the first tournament squad he picks, leaves that Rooney, leaves out Joe Hart.

He's not afraid to drop,

he wasn't afraid to drop big players.

And this felt a little bit like we're back to the old England of

Gerard and Lumpard.

Of sort of tiptoeing around the big egos and the big celebrities.

And I think you maybe start to include Bellingham in that.

If you actually, if you think about this game, before we get to Bellingham, because I think it's an interesting point about if he's had a good tournament or not a good tournament, is Troy that we scored.

And I reckon for about two or three minutes, there was this energy and and there was this momentum where we were like hang on a second we've got this and then we just retreated again and we and you sort of we have seen that through the tournament yeah look but in all of that Spain never panicked we didn't see Spain looking disillusioned did we they they they dusted themselves down they made sure they kept the ball again and they've created another outstanding goal so you know we did outstanding it seems I think it's an outstanding goal I think both of the goals were outstanding all three of the goals to be honest on a on a on a night when the football wasn't the best of the highest quality.

But I thought the three goals that were carved out were very, very good.

And in the moments, the battles between Shaw and Lamal and Williams and Walker were always going to be the ones that I think decided who was going to win and who wasn't.

And Shaw was getting a lot of pats on the back in the first half.

His first four or five tackles were, he was very sharp on Yamal, wasn't he?

And he wasn't giving him any room.

But if you watch the game back, we'll notice the quality of this young 16-year-old.

17.

17-year-old, sorry, he's just had his birthday.

He's 16 till he's 17.

With the quality on where he was involved, particularly in the first goal, and maybe should have finished off a couple of chances

to put the game beyond doubt.

But England would have been grateful for Pickford for that.

What did you make of Jude Bellingham today, Barry?

He's got this kind of, he does have main character energy, which I believe is a thing.

But

with that, sometimes you sense that he is trying to do too much every time he gets the ball.

Possibly.

There is an arrogance about him, which

is commendable in someone so young and so obviously talented.

Did he have a good tournament?

I don't know.

He had a couple of standout moments, but yeah, they were getting shaking, people shaking their heads around the table here.

Well, it's difficult, though, because the overhead kick equalizer is an amazing moment.

And that's a thing not very many people could do.

The header, they're fine, he's in in the right place.

It's a strong header.

It's a brave header.

A lot of players could do that.

To score an overkick like that in the last minute, it's not just a technical ability.

It's about having that main character energy.

But that aside, I think he looked knackers.

But is there a question about the fact that if you play him and Foden, you've still got this idea that

had, and there were these talks earlier in the tournament, if you played Anthony Gordon or someone that could stretch the game and you had Ollie Watkins and you're stretching the game, suddenly whoever's in that 10, be it Bellingham or Foden, actually has more time and space on the ball.

I mean that is true.

And I think when the two of them, when England went to the back three, the two of them were playing

both centrally, both are sort of inside forwards.

I think the moments were not looked pretty good.

I think they weren't helped by a centre forward.

He wasn't fully fit.

I think they looked better like that when they had Ollie Watkins there making his runs in behind, stretching the play.

So I think that's a

legitimate point.

But I also just sort of think he dwelt on the ball too much.

He was occasionally a bit slow.

There's a petulance about him that, you know, he regularly goes down looking for three kicks that just obviously aren't.

So, I mean, look,

he's still incredibly young.

Yeah, we should still be saying, oh, yeah, for a 20-year-old,

this is an amazingly possible start.

We're just already expecting a bit more than that.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

I think he's not the bravest player.

In situations when a guy of that physique, you would expect him to put himself about a bit more in those situations where the ball's dropped, it's a second ball, and he's supposed to throw himself into it.

I don't see a great deal of bravery there.

There's a lot of...

Sort of feel like, I mean, it's interesting, isn't it?

It feels really harsh for the team that have got to the final of this tournament, but I guess we are looking at the ball.

But England haven't played well the whole tournament.

That's the truth.

And he's supposed to be one of the main men.

And Yay's young, but he's been part of the England setup since

Euro 2020.

And this is supposed to be his tournament, you know, ballon d'Or, Ballon d'Or, Ballon d'Or.

Well, I don't think so now, do you?

He has the arrogance, as Barry says, and he struts it around,

but there's also an immaturity as well, you might say, because he's still a young player.

I mean, we've just seen the picture of him kicking over an ice bucket or whatever.

Which is fair enough.

I mean, it's not Tamuri kept fire, right?

Bobby Moore wouldn't do that.

You know, it's a thing, you know.

I mean, it's not.

I think you've never sounded more like an old man, John.

No, I never.

That was the point.

Yeah.

John Lemesiere would not do that.

You know, but

it was a

there's no need for stuff like that.

I mean, listen, he's entitled to be disappointed, but think of the Jude Bellingham arc, like the Harry Kanak, slightly different.

Everything has gone his way in his career, pretty much.

And this is the game that it didn't go his way.

And maybe

think about it and think, learn from that.

Yeah, he's got a lot.

Yeah, exactly.

So, yeah.

This is a young England team that has got years in its legs.

I think potentially we're being a little bit hard.

It looked like they had years in their legs.

I think potentially we've been a little bit harsh on them as a young squad that will hopefully go again

in the World Cup if it's still going to be held in the US in a couple of years' time.

But I also think that one thing that this team needs to develop, as many England teams in the past have needed to develop, and that is how to control a game of football.

That is how to keep the ball.

That is how to pass under pressure.

That is how to, you know, apply some common sense sense to your passing.

I saw Declan Rice, and I have done for most of, I think we said it, Jonathan, didn't we?

Most of this tournament give the ball away quite a lot under no pressure whatsoever.

And I think if Gareth stays or if someone takes over, we've got to develop an area where England can control the game.

And when I say control the game, I mean 15, 20, 25, but Spain can do that.

France potentially, a decent France can do that.

Croatia did it against us, you know, back in the World Cup.

So if we are going to go on to another tournament on with the massive amount of expectation that we have then i think this team this squad has to develop how to keep the ball and keep the ball better

jonathan and i had a discussion just outside which was about how garrison southgate represents the st george's park burton upon trent culture of developing you know we always used to have this root and branch you know like knock it all down and build it back up again we have england and the FA have built it up to be as good as it can.

The problem is that Spain, when you look at how they are at youth level, at women's level, I mean, De La Fuente is there, Garrett Southgate.

He's the guy from the younger,

and within Spanish football, within, it would seem Basque football, you know, these players aren't from Real Madrid and Barcelona because Real Madrid and Barcelona are now dominated by foreign players.

They have that ability to hold the ball.

And it feels like it's 1985.

Yeah, exactly.

But it feels like Terry Venable's talking in Mexico 86 or whatever, because that is something ingrained in English players that when they're managed by the same players.

Well, I think there's two things there.

So one is I think there are other ways to play.

Maybe not at international level.

Maybe international level that capacity control of the game is necessary.

But I think it's at that we always used to think was a technical issue.

I don't think it's a technical issue now.

I think it's a mental issue.

That we saw, I mean, yeah, England equalise for two or three minutes.

They look really good.

You think it was only 15 minutes, you know?

Two or three whole minutes, Jonathan.

But why, why then?

It wasn't that sort of Spain gradually came back into the game and England would forced it.

It was England suddenly dropped deep.

Yeah.

And that panic, whether in the lead or in a situation they sort of feel as advantageous, that oh, we've got to drop off.

And I don't get that because if you're playing high up a pitch, you don't need to control the ball in the same way.

And Spain push up and start to dominate.

And I think the other issue is

you look at the technical quality of England players now, post-EPPP and the England DNA programme, it's it's way higher.

But England have all these very good creative attacking players to a level that certainly in my lifetime we've never had.

What we don't have is any coaches.

The last Englishman to win the league as a coach is still Howard Wilkinson.

Last Englishman to win a trophy, Harry Redknapp.

Is Harry Rednapp?

Yeah, yeah, Willie, won't it?

Yeah.

Jonathan, I get what you're saying, but I also think, and I disagree with the point about you don't need to be,

you know, a passer, a team passer in around the box.

I just think that England don't know.

If we're going down one side, let's say, we're going down one side.

We don't know how to come out, go back the other way, maybe try down the other side, come back, keep the ball in midfield.

I just see a lot of that from the other nations.

Well, it would be easier if we actually had two sides.

I'd feel even more downbeat now than I think.

The big thing is, Max, is that it's the difference between winning and losing.

It's the difference between

losing on pens last time against the Italians when our expectation was up, but losing this time.

And as you said from the outset, not being as downbeat as what we were last time, because maybe we expected it from the Spanish.

But I think the sense there is last time was such an opportunity for England that they were playing in not particularly good Italy.

Yeah, in Italy, they failed to qualify World Cup before and then failed to qualify for World Cup after playing them at home.

This was a Spain team who we knew were better than English.

Yeah.

All right, that'll do for part one.

We'll carry on this conversation in just a second.

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welcome to part two of the guardian football weekly in the break we've all noticed that barrel you haven't really said much you don't care i have to say much

i mean you're still talking about how you don't you're not as disappointed as you were last time uh i mean you've certainly seen more

and it doesn't seem to have crossed your mind that england are now going to have a reputation as basically serial losers, bottlers.

I mean we've had that anyway, just

a higher grade of bottling, yeah.

We should talk about Gareth Southgate and I and I and I and I suspect you know obviously Barney isn't here to

row with you, Barry, but does this is this another game where you look and you say either Southgate's done really well to get this team hit to the final and so you credit him for that or it's another game like we were saying this is the game it doesn't feel like a game that

that that you know it doesn't feel as disappointing, but still, there were moments where we could have been more proactive and we weren't.

I don't think this is a game England left behind them, like I do the last European Euros final.

I think they were beaten by the better team, but the better team weren't

totally on it.

You know, they were there to be beaten, and England couldn't beat them.

There were an awful lot of poor performances in England side.

I don't know how many of them, you know, can you blame Gareth Southgate for that?

Phil Forden had a poor game.

Declan Rice had a poor game.

Harry Kane might as well not have been on the pitch.

I had some criticism for Kyle Walker for the goals, which I didn't necessarily...

But he followed Olmo, didn't he?

I mean,

I'd have to see more replays to know if he could have left Olmo to somebody else.

But that was the issue.

He went with Olmo.

But I don't think anyone...

No, no, pretty much everyone has a view on Southgate, and I don't think that game is going to change anyone's mind.

People who think he's done a good job as England manager still think he's will still think he's done a good job, even though he hasn't won anything.

And to a certain extent, he has done a good job

because he took over an absolute shambles and he's he's whipped into shape.

He's got to a semi-final, two finals, but I think he should have won the semi-final.

I think he should have won one of the finals, and

England didn't give a particularly good account of themselves tonight.

But he did say before the game, we want to give everyone the night of their lives.

And I thank you, Karen.

I was going to say,

if he does go, John,

you know, and we're off now for a couple of weeks, so if it happens, you know, we won't be broadcasting it

and we'll do it at the next international break, probably by the time the Premier League comes around again.

It's funny you mentioned Harry Redner.

I wouldn't mind him with this bunch of players going, go on, have some,

yeah, those games of darts that they've been playing with the press, they just do that anyway.

Pool.

I mean,

this is it, as Jonathan said, you know, the cupboard is quite bare, and you're looking at a systems guy.

Graham Potter is available,

we presume.

Eddie Howe is the other candidate

coming off not a particularly impressive season with Newcastle, coming off not particularly impressive press performances.

When you consider, actually, one of the great things about Gareth Southgate is his ability to work the media.

Eddie Howe, in that...

It seems to be.

Okay, no, that's a fair point, Barry.

I think

this tournament, he's become a lot more prickly.

He's responded far more to criticism.

I think that's because he might be listening to certain dodgy podcasts.

But Eddie Howe, under that microscope, yeah, I'd have my doubts.

Graham Potter, under that microscope, it didn't go well at Chelsea.

Let's put it that way.

And the scrutiny is ridiculous because if you think about the England team, Troy, like

in no other game is like everybody just staring at the subs bench thinking who's coming on.

If you think about every Premier League game we watch and then they make substitutions and we just go, all right, because there are so many and we don't have time to focus on a holding midfielder coming on for another holding midfielder.

Like that scrutiny is huge.

And I suppose it is worth remembering that he is our second most successful manager ever.

Yeah, but it's scrutiny that if you don't expect it as an England player, as an England manager, as an England coach, then I don't understand why you've taken this on.

One of the main things that I remember from the start of the tournament was that the England squad or the manager saying, we won't be listening to social media.

We won't be talking, you know, we're going to be focusing on winning this tournament.

And they listened from the very first minute, didn't they?

From the fact that the criticism came from the first game and it never stopped after that.

And not just Gareth, a lot of the players got quite prickly as well, didn't they?

And for me, they were focusing more on that than their own general performances because some of the criticism was justified.

You've got to expect it.

So, look,

I don't know if he stays.

That will be Gareth's decision, but

he's done a job again where he's got England to two finals.

And that should never be sniffed at at all.

The next one is now where you have to go and improve again.

You make the World Cup final and you win it.

It's going to be tough in the US if it is him, or if it's someone that comes in and makes no sweeping changes because the base of the squad is there.

We can see that.

May make a decision on the captain.

That might be the one.

But listen, England are in good fettle.

There may be a dynamic about mentally getting over the line that needs to be looked at and processed, but they're in good fettle.

And I've criticised them as much as anybody else.

Are you saying the World Cup?

It's on, Troy.

It's coming home.

Is that what you're saying?

I mean, there weren't positives, aren't they?

Look, Cobby Maine has come in and actually, in some games, looked really.

He didn't have a brilliant game tonight.

They're looked good.

Mark Gaye looked good.

Pickford again, doesn't doesn't let England down.

Cole Palmer, Eze, actually, you know, the bench has looked good.

Yeah, there's been individual players that had individual moments where they've proved that they are really good players, as we know they are.

I mean, but I don't even look at this tournament saying then, I mean, yeah, there was a 25 minutes against the Netherlands, and that's about it in terms of when they've actually played well.

But I think you've got to take a step back and say

Southgate eight years in charge of

creating an environment in which that is possible.

I hope he goes.

I just think when any leader in any walk of life is there for a long period,

then the uplips are shorter.

You're really looking at me when you're saying this.

I don't know what you're saying.

I don't see you as a leader.

And people are apt to get frustrated quicker, and those frustrations will be worse.

So we saw that

towards the end of the group stage, I think it was the worst the criticism of South Kit has been.

And maybe that helped create some kind of siege mentality, but I don't think that's healthy.

I think a team is better when people are broadly positive.

And so I don't really see, hey, maybe Southgate thinks, yeah,

we can win the World Cup.

One last job.

One last job.

But I sort of hope he thinks, no, this is going to race, give it over to somebody else.

And then I think maybe,

you know, in five, ten years, we will appreciate just how good he was when he's going to go back to going out in the group stage and

struggling to qualify.

The two

contenders for his position you named are Potter and Eddie Howe.

Is a foreign manager out of the question?

I don't think it's out of the question.

I think the St.

George's Park aspect of it makes it a little.

It's pretty hard to maintain the England DNA thing if you bring it in your body.

I think there's a big project.

Or somebody at least who's been within English football.

Oh, well that.

I mean, I don't know.

Say Jürgen Klopp went, you know what, I wouldn't mind that for a few years.

years.

But the thing is, though, any Premier League manager who's managed in a Premier League has watched what Garriselski has had to deal with.

Yeah, I mean, that's probably well able for that, though.

Potter's odds on.

How then Pochettino Klopp, Lee Carsley, Frank Lampard.

Well, that's part of a half.

Who did you say his odds on?

Graham Potter.

Lee Carsley.

I mean, Lee Carsley.

He's

the under 21s, and he's been highly thought of in the same way that Gareth was.

Now, that's the same thing of promoting promoting for getting the technique crap from the inside.

We could probably talk about Spain a bit.

They did beat England, France, Germany, Italy, and Croatia in their group, Wilson.

I mean, that is a,

you know, and they won all their games.

I mean, you can't do better than that, right?

Yeah, and easily they were the best team in this tournament.

And if, yeah.

If Visiting is deserving to win a tournament, they deserve to win it.

Only one team before has ever won seven games in the same tournament.

That was Brazil in 2002.

And Spain have beaten much better sides than that.

Brazil beat.

So in some senses, it's the greatest tournament performance ever.

And

they were the only team who really played well in this tournament.

So, have they defied, you know, you've said before, you can't expect international teams to play pretty patterns and all that kind of stuff.

And actually, they didn't really tonight, but in the rest of the tournament, they have shown that.

I think there was a bit of that tonight.

It's more than there was from England, certainly.

Oh, of course.

I think that's something to do with the nature of Spanish football, the way their academy system works, the fact that technique is such a key part of how they play.

Their pressing clearly is not as sophisticated as a good pressing team.

It can't be.

It's impossible to be.

But technically, they're superb and

that's just how they play.

The idea of whacking it long, even when they got Murato up front, the idea of whacking it long to him is entirely alien.

They've won all of their last four appearances in finals, 08, 10, 20, 12, 2024.

The last four times the Spanish players won Wimbledon, Spain have also won a major international tournament the same summer.

That's from Albinho on Twitter.

At this stat, though.

Are you saying it's Tim Henman's fault?

I always thought it was Tim.

I actually made the comparison the other day that Garris Southgate was in danger of becoming the Tim Henman.

He's got that sort of fist bump.

Yeah.

Fist bump.

I don't know if he blows his hands, but like in that way that Tim Henmon used to do.

But, you know,

getting, you know, a lot of spirit.

Just not quite getting it done.

The Tim Henman football.

And I don't mind Tim Henry.

He seems like a decent lad.

Yeah, Spain or Spanish sides, this stat has been doing the rights, but it's quite amazing.

It's been in 27 finals in the last 23 years.

World Cup, Euros, Champions League, Europa League.

They have won all of them.

The only time a Spanish side has lost if it has played another Spanish side.

I don't know.

I mean, I don't know what that means.

I mean, can we conclude anything?

They've won football, yeah.

But they've just completed football.

They just know how to.

I think a lot of it was down to the fact that I mean, that is incredible, but

a lot of it is down to the fact that Troy said that they just never panic.

Never.

You know, no matter how badly things are going for them, they just keep calm and carry on and, you know,

sort things out.

And the thing is with Spanish football is that it has developed.

Like, it isn't as if they're playing the same football they used to in the 1980s.

And it's just, in the 1980s, Spanish football was sort of like English football, like a pretty aggressive sort of centre-halves.

Well, there's that great line of Minotti, doesn't there?

Cesaris Minotti.

And this is, I can't remember, early 80s when he was Barcelona manager.

And he said, Spanish football will be a lot better when they learn it is better to be the matador than the bull.

Yeah, and they just, yeah, they would charge around.

And remember, remember, you'd be watching the TV, and he's like, footage from Spain, it'd be lots of nasty fouls, and

then, you know,

the classicos that we used to see, it was a hell for leather stuff.

And then slowly they developed that style of football that

it's not, it's not all ticky-tacker.

It's, it's, I mean, they played with, you know, wingers if not bombing on but bombing in you know

Lameen and uh

Williams was fantastic.

He was great tonight and looked so you know we talk about people not feeling the pressure and Cole Palmer didn't for England and we haven't actually mentioned him yet but but Williams today Troy just looked so calm about it didn't he?

It was I think I mentioned it earlier it was the big battle wasn't it it was him versus Karl Walker and I agree with Jonathan

did Kyle Walker go walkabouts in terms of tracking Almo in when really he should have focused on it was probably the biggest danger at the time, which was Williams?

But he looked confident as well.

Whenever he came up against Walker or whether it was John Stones, one of the centre-halves coming across, he looked like he knew he was going to beat his man at all points.

And that he was the standout player today.

He was followed by a couple of others.

Fabian Rees probably wouldn't get as much of a mention, but I thought he was an amazing tournament, Ruiz.

Yeah, he was classy today as well.

I thought he was very classy, but may have gone under the radar.

And we have to give props to

Coca-Cola as well.

Saka did well, okay, in the first half, but was then anonymous for large parts of the second half.

And that's when the left back got himself forward and created the winning goal.

So, yeah, there was a couple of really strong...

I agree.

It wasn't the best of games.

It wasn't the most easy of the eye of games, but Spain never really looked.

a pressurized team for me.

And actually, Danny Olmo Wilson has made such an impact since coming in.

And everyone thought, oh, Pedro's out because that midfield of Rodri, Fabian Reese and Pedri looks so good.

And Olmo is a different type of player.

And not only has he been good scoring and assisting, he had that, you know, the only real chance that England had at 2-1 clearing it off the line.

Yeah, I mean, I think he gives them slightly more directness, doesn't he?

I think that the yeah, Pedri's clearly a brilliant player, but maybe with Pedri and Fabiana Reese and Rodri, there's a lot of old Spain, there's a lot of sideways passing there.

And Danny Olmo maybe is just that little bit more direct, gives you a bit more cutting edge.

I mean, the game against Germany, he was that was a Germany game when he came on, wasn't it?

Scored a goal, set one up.

But yeah, he's he's looked brilliant the last two and a bit games.

He's got that sort of red ball pressing thrust, hasn't he?

And that's that's the other thing is that the Spain team

have added that those extra elements.

Like Fabian Rhea spent a lot of time in in Italy, he's a PSG now.

And you actually look at the Spanish team, a lot of them don't actually play in Spain.

And maybe that's one of England's problems is, you know, you've got Bellingham, you've got Kane.

Everyone else are in the best league in the world, John, aren't they?

But Bellingham and Kane are two have been slagging off on the bottom.

Yeah, exactly.

We need to come home, bring him home.

It's a little too parochial.

Do you notice something I didn't mention about Williams' performance?

And he went and spent some time on the left.

I remember when Williams was talking, he spent some time on the left-hand side because Shaw was getting the better of the left.

Oh, yeah, on the right.

I'm sorry, in England's left, was getting the better of Yamal time after time.

And I think that was just to confuse Shaw and tell him that, oh, I can come over here as well if you need so almost give my guy a little bit of space and he took that space in the second half quite well so I think there's an added element to his performance tonight.

Roderie player of the tournament by the way Yamal young player of the tournament Gary Southgate just saying about Harry Kane these are the quotes that are just coming in physically it's been tough for him he came into the tournament short on games he's not quite reached the level we would have all we all would have hoped the games are hugely demanding and we thought Ollie's freshness would allow us to press better and offer a press in behind.

I thought the substitutes came on and did what we asked them to do.

Um, he's in a really good position in terms of the experience they have.

Most of this squad will be around for the World Cup and the next Euros.

There's a lot to look forward to, but at this moment, it's not any consolation.

Um, I mean, that's sort of

what we all thought, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean, I

suppose I thought he might give something on his own future there, but maybe nothing so far.

Sleep on it,

the thing the FA thing has done very well is his contract doesn't run out till December, so there's absolutely no rush.

And I think it's entirely fine if he wants to take two or three weeks to work it out.

I mean, he's got to be aware that there will be England games in September, I assume.

So he wants to give a new man sort of three or four weeks before that.

But there's no, he doesn't need to make a decision tomorrow.

Worth pointing out the first half was absolutely terrible, wasn't it?

I mean, that was a you just think of all these bit I cycled in, right, from Hackney to the King's Cross where the Guardian is, and every pub was full and it was great, and you were like ah this vibe is great around this city and probably around the whole country and i just i just thought of people just in that first half just being like well you cycle home now it'll just be crickets

first half we we were discussing hattie jack from the carry on movies we started on dad's army i'm not sure how we got onto dad's army well it was about 27 minutes in i was saying about ian lavender was he were comparing um

private gofrey to hurry kaney yes maybe we were You can't not Godfrey.

And then you said he had an interesting life.

Then we got on to Hattie Jake's marriage.

Arnold Lidley was a war hero.

And then we got on to the carry-on films and then an episode of Top of the Pops from 1983, which is, I presume that's what other people were doing.

You know, just trying to get into this game, and nothing happened until Phil Foden had a sort of

tame volley in injury time in the first half.

Simon says, what is the optimal year to be born to get the most years of hurt?

I was born in in 1972, so pretty much everything from 82 onwards.

Jack and if you're born in about 66.

Well, it all depends on when the hurt officially started.

Yeah.

Because I think football cliches have done this.

Yeah.

Have they?

You know, there was no hurt from at least, you know, earliest it started was 1968.

Like the very earliest.

But, I mean, I was just doing a thought since I've moved to England.

You're going to be, this is the nicest list you've ever read out.

I've,

there have been 13 major tournaments I've enjoyed England not winning.

And I know, Max, you think this podcast only started in 2017, but in a previous life...

So there...

Producer Joel looks so sad about this.

There have been

10 tournaments I've got to enjoy England not winning.

Joel says, I'm so sad I can't watch another final with Barry.

I might quit.

Swing the axe.

But I thought this was the one.

I thought today was going to be the day.

I had

just this feeling of absolute dread coming in.

And there were, you know,

people in England shirts.

Some of them were already drunk on the tube chanting and,

you know, oi, oi, oi, oi, England.

And I was just.

People having a good time.

Yeah.

I can't face a return journey if they win.

I'm going to.

I've got to go.

The other question about the hurt is: at what point do you do you go numb?

That's one of the things of pain, right?

Do you think that's this?

Do you think this is the numb?

This is the numb.

I think I've been emotionally numb for quite a few years.

I don't think I've got any football.

I think you might be right.

There was a moment on the radio.

In fact, so our show started at 11 o'clock this morning.

And in the news bulletin,

they had a little clip of some kids singing, Come On England, to some eight-year-olds.

And even Barry couldn't be, he couldn't be happy for children.

that's how he got that children children don't understand

on his face uh anyway um unless anyone has anything salient to add for part well i i i don't think i'm breaking any confidence

ellis james somewhat gleefully revealed to me that his his daughter yeah wanted uh england to lose and he said oh why do you want why you know what's your problem uh you know i thought maybe she might have a spanish friend in school or something she went i want them to lose because you want them to lose, Daddy.

Well, our regards to Ellis, who decided who was, you know, we asked him if he wanted to, you know, get the band back together from the last final.

And he just said, I, he, he didn't think the listeners wanted Ellis pretending to be balanced when basically the amount he wants England to lose makes him think he may have a poisoned mind.

That's his exact line.

Anyway, that'll do for part two.

We'll do any other business in part three.

Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

You've caught Barry in a very good mood for wedding well-wishes.

So let's rattle through a couple, shall we?

Liam says, Hi, Max, Barry, and co.

Firstly, thank you for all the wonderful coverage of the Euros and football in general, alongside covering other topics thoughtfully.

Your humorous and knowledgeable chat has got me through numerous tough times.

I've been an avid listener for many years and attended two of your Dublin live shows.

This means my fiancé and soon-to-be wife, Rosheen, has eventually shown some interest into what it is I spend so much time listening to declaring she doesn't really get it we are getting married on Saturday in Killorglyn County Kerry yeah um and I think hearing one of Barry's famous wedding blessings on the drive down could be the key to making the day I'm writing this before the final so if Barry has not recovered in the event of an England win I understand a blessing being too much all the best and thanks again to the hours of entertainment Liam that is Liam Robertson so Liam and Rosheen

Liam and Rosheen is very two very Irish names

I'm more more than happy to wish you all the best, Liam and Rosheen, and you'll always have something to remember your wedding anniversary

by Liem.

So just, you know, it's four days after that day or whatever.

Yeah,

I, you know, I don't know why you're going to Kerry to get married.

It seems a long way away.

Everything will be very expensive.

Everyone will look at you suspiciously.

And they got beaten in the All-Ireland Gaelic football semi-final at the weekend by a team from England called Tyrone.

So,

yeah, they'll all be in a bad mood.

But hopefully, your wedding

will go well anyway.

Even though the staff will be surly, the beef will be overcooked, the salmon will be undercooked, and they'll probably have

swapped your expensive wine for some cheap plonk they've got in the local super value.

Lovely.

David says, Max and gang, love the pods instead.

Found it way back in the early days.

I was wondering if Barry could record an infamous wedding message for my friend Ben.

He's a Welshman who loves American football and beer, who is marrying a Californian girl.

For material, he's been on a diet and doing dance classes.

He also has a habit of falling asleep in bars.

He's a pod listener, so I feel on Sunday Barry will either be jubilant or at his darkest, which might make the perfect message.

Well, thank you for furnishing with that material.

You gave me the fact that Ben is no longer a fat bastard, that he can now dance, he's got some rhythm, but you didn't actually mention his wife to be his name.

But we know she's a Californian girl, so it's probably Stacy or Kimberly.

All the best to you, Ben and Stacey, or Kimberly.

You did dance.

We saw you dance, didn't we?

Well, I wanted to be unequivocal, Max.

I river danced and chefs kissed, chefs kissed at the final whistle.

And even as I was doing, I felt bad because you did look incredibly sad.

It was funny to be fair.

I grant you it was funny.

It'll do good numbers and that's all we're about these days.

The content.

Finally let's finish on an email from Fraser.

Thanks so much for getting in touch Fraser.

He says dear Max Barry Joel and the Football Weekly team, please forgive the long and only loosely relevant email.

I've had reason lately to want to send a message of thanks to people who've made some difference in my life without knowing it, like the worst kind of hanger on outside a gig venue.

And so I'm writing to say thank you for the companionship I felt listening to your show over the past who knows how long.

I'm one of those dweebs who likes to listen a couple of times to each episode.

Blimey.

And the familiarity of the panel is like hearing from an old mate, but in a welcome way.

Not like when they just ring you.

I'm afraid that this email does refer to the socks story, but not in a way that makes a joke of Barry.

You'll be pleased to know, Baz.

I've been upping my football weekly indulgence recently as this tournament is poignant to me.

It's likely to be the last Euros that I experienced.

It was not long after the last World Cup that I discovered that I have a hereditary lung condition for which there's no way out at the time when the reality of my diagnosis set in one of my early reactions was I'm not having that fucking catarl be my last World Cup so I'm trying to take this one in as much as I can if I outperform my XG expected grave Maybe I have another international tournament or two in the tank but it's looking like I've crossed 80 minutes and I could do with a goal there's a chance that transplanting these lungs out of me might buy me a route to extra time but it's only bloody gareth at the wheel and it seems he wants to wait until 90 plus 3 to sub them on.

Anyway the reason I wanted to send this email is because last week I was at hospital going through my regular battery of tests.

While I had a bunch of wires and sensors taped to me and someone listening to my heart tub thumping away, I had my earphones in and I was listening to football weekly.

But given the setting, it was hard to focus on the chat about the day before's games.

And instead, I was listening to you talk about football while thinking about other men having their conkers decommissioned while listening to you talk about football.

As if this wasn't disquieting enough, it was at that moment that Barry Sott came up eyes emoji.

So there I was, topless, on a hospital bed, the various states of male genitalia in my mind, and I only wanted to think about England shinning one out for a throw-in.

If that's not impactful broadcasting, what is?

Like all enthusiastic and not in any way pushy dads of tiny children, I've tried to show my son and daughter as much of the Euros as possible.

After watching the games, I'd put football weekly on in the kitchen or in the car, and sometimes quietly in the background during those endless nighttime resettling hours when only laughing at the despair of football can keep you going.

Before becoming a dad, I used to dream of first games and wonder in hope whether football will bring my beautiful children the comfort and glorious suffering that it brings me.

Now I only wonder how long I will know them and if it will be long enough.

I'm a Bristol Rovers fan, an England fan, and an unapologetically delusional optimist.

I may never get the goal I need, but it's never really been the winning itself that I love about football.

It's only the feeling that while there's time, there's always a chance.

Barry, I'm sorry to say that I hope this Euros hurts you deeply.

Sorry, Friday.

When we win the whole thing and it turns out that even we don't enjoy it.

Thank you sincerely for the laughter that your podcast has given me and for your place in the cultural life of my family.

You've brought me genuine joy, which I do all I can to reflect forward onto those I love.

Take care and thank you.

And that is from Fraser.

And Fraser, thank you so much.

Thanks, Fraser.

You couldn't let me enjoy it for one fucking hour without putting a big downer on the evening.

I'm sorry, but thank you, Fraser.

I appreciate you, you know, sending that message to us and trusting us with something so

serious.

But look, we wish you all the best, of course, and we send you all of our love.

And that is it for today.

Thank you, chaps.

Thank you, John.

Cheers and all the best to Fraser.

Yeah, yeah.

Thank you, Troy.

Thank you, Max.

Really appreciate it.

Cheers, Wilson.

Cheers.

Thank you, Barry, you bastard.

Thamos.

Thamos.

Two years.

You never know, eh?

Thanks to everyone who's been on the Football Weekly All Tournament, all the panelists, to Silas Gray and Jesse Howard, who produced a few of them when producer Joel was slacking off.

I bet you wish you'd taken this one off, Joel, don't you?

To Matt Bentley Viney, makes all the social media clips, who caught the chef's kiss.

It was like they said, like when they both caught, when they finally found it, like two hours after last Saturday or whenever it was, was it Wednesday?

They found the video of him doing like, we've got him.

It was like Frost Nixon.

I mean, it wasn't hard to find.

We knew exactly when it was.

Yeah, but you said you hadn't done it.

No, you make a very good point.

They knew the exact minute that the chef's kiss would have been.

Anyway, thanks to the execs, Christian Bennett, Josh Kelly, Daniel Stevens, and thanks to everyone who's listened.

We are going to have two weeks off, which I think we deserve, but you probably deserve it even more than we do.

But thank you for listening.

We appreciate it greatly.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Daniel Stevens.

This is The Guardian.