Scotland crash out of Euro 2024 - Football Daily

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Speaker 32 Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. Scotland are out of the European Championships, their 12th major tournament and the 12th time they've failed to get out of the group.

Speaker 32 A heartbreaking goal in the last minute of injury time. Really, they didn't offer enough.
Neither side did. Scotland's biggest moment came when Stuart Armstrong went down after being put through.

Speaker 32 Was it a penalty? Very hard to tell. Injury time was wild.
Both of them had to go for it. The game had been pretty tepid before then.

Speaker 32 More important than any of that was the horrific looking injury to Barnabas Varga. We don't know how he is and we only hope he's okay.

Speaker 32 In the other game, Germany leave it very late to steal a draw against Switzerland. Nicholas Fulkrug with a textbook header, which means they topped the group, but the Swiss were good.

Speaker 32 We'll also look ahead to tomorrow's games, about time for Croatia to wake up against italy they could put the holders out harry kane and declan rice hit back at former england players who also haven't won major tournaments in a cycle that could go on forever we'll answer your questions and that's today's guardian football weekly

Speaker 32 joachim says when will robin cowan be back yeah thanks mate appreciate that i had a wonderful stag do in grantham the table tennis at one o'clock this morning was absolutely wild but i'm back not 100 fit but given the nod by the gaffer You've heard the laugh there of Archie Rin Tutt.

Speaker 32 Welcome, Archie.

Speaker 1 Hi, Max.

Speaker 32 Sandy Ridravadula. Hello.
Hello, Max. And Nadia Manua, welcome.
Thank you very much. So then Germany, seven points.
Switzerland, five. Hungary, three, Scotland, one in group A.

Speaker 32 Before we talk to the panel, let's bring in the Guardian Scottish football correspondent, Ewan Murray,

Speaker 32 who is

Speaker 32 out there at the stadium. I presume it's pretty quiet and pretty flat after that, Ewan.

Speaker 33 Yeah, I mean, I think over the course of the three games, Scotland didn't do enough, didn't do enough an attack, certainly, didn't look potent enough.

Speaker 33 Tonight was their big chance to show more of that, and they didn't do it.

Speaker 33 The atmosphere is a bit strange, obviously, because of what happened in the Vargas situation, which we, I don't, you guys maybe at this point know a bit more than me. We're going to wait, see what the

Speaker 33 Hungarian manager Marco Rossi says shortly. But it was a bit of a strange atmosphere of the closing stages of the game.
I think largely because of that.

Speaker 33 Although I have to say, the Hungarian players celebrated in fair spirit at the end there with their fans, but it was a bit of a weird occasion all around after that happened.

Speaker 32 Yeah, I think you're right. Look, it was an awful injury.

Speaker 32 It was very hard to work out exactly what happened. And we didn't see that many replays, fortunately, right?

Speaker 32 They didn't want to show so many replays. And certainly, after,

Speaker 32 you know,

Speaker 32 we saw far too much of the Christian Erickson events four years ago. And then I think there were worries that it was something equally serious.

Speaker 32 But then because they played on, you sort of thought, well, it can't be as serious. The latest we've got is that he's conscious and communicating.
But obviously, by the time people listen to this,

Speaker 32 we don't know, but we obviously wish him well, of course. But that did affect things.
But really,

Speaker 32 I mean, the only moment for Scotland was that penalty with the Grant Hanley chance and injury time, which was before the Hungry Goal. But the penalty shout, and I don't know what you thought about it.

Speaker 32 Like, lots of people instantly on social media were like, that's definitely a penalty. I still can't work it out, if I'm honest.

Speaker 33 I'm not sure. I'm honestly not sure.
Also, Shanklin's had a chance as well, I think, and waiting soon.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's right. And stop his thing.

Speaker 33 Yeah, just on

Speaker 33 Varga, I've never been at a game where there's been sheets put around a player.

Speaker 33 I've never seen that before. So that was concerning.
And obviously, the scale of the reaction from the Hungarian and the Scotland players told you, you know, straight away this is really serious.

Speaker 33 So that's why people were worried. But

Speaker 33 hopefully we get good news on that shortly.

Speaker 33 Yeah, again, I just think over the course of the three games, Scotland didn't offer enough in the final third. They didn't have a lot of shots.

Speaker 33 It became a basketball at the end here because a draw was no use to either team and they both kind of went for it. But even then, Scotland attacked more in hope and expectation.

Speaker 33 I think you don't think they're going to

Speaker 33 score goals. And that, I don't blame the manager for that because I think they have a real shortage of attacking options, a real shortage of game changers.
And that came home to Rooster.

Speaker 33 And it's really frustrating because that's two tournaments in a row, you know, one point from three games.

Speaker 33 And you think all that effort, all the hype, and I touched on it last time I was on with you, the support here has been incredible, and you get scant return for it really and it feels like a um a real blow in football tournaments yeah and that's the point isn't it i i suspect there are scotland fans part of the tartan arm tartan army who loved being who love being loved and they love that people embrace what they bring to a tournament but but like one day one day you want more than that right yeah yeah and i think there's been a there was an attitude problem in scotland for too long where the where failure was almost celebrated maybe not celebrated but accepted because everyone had a great time watching Scotland.

Speaker 33 It was great fun, a great check away. And that used to annoy me and irritate me.

Speaker 33 And now I don't think there's anything wrong with the fact that the supporters have been fantastic ambassadors for the country. They have been lauded everywhere.
They've been in Germany.

Speaker 33 They've had a great time. They've behaved themselves.
I think

Speaker 33 that should be applauded. That's fantastic.
But you're absolutely right. There is that nagging sense that...
you know we need to do more on the pitch we need to we need to compete more um

Speaker 33 you know we needed improvement from the last tournament and ultimately we've not got it because we'll get the same return in terms of one point from the three games.

Speaker 33 If you look at it in black and white, and that will be a real, should be a real frustration to

Speaker 33 the people in charge of the team.

Speaker 32 Yeah, and I guess a lot of Scotland fans will think the tournament just, the timing just wasn't perfect, right?

Speaker 32 A year ago or whenever it was that you'd beaten Spain and you were in that position, you sort of think that's when you

Speaker 32 needed it to happen.

Speaker 33 Yeah, maybe, but I think other teams could probably make the same point, right? I'm not sure Scotland were alone in that. They've had injuries, but mainly to apart from the right back position,

Speaker 33 and actually, I thought Ralston, who had a tough couple of games, did well tonight.

Speaker 33 Apart from the right-back position, it was backup players and you know, plan B's who were hurt. And again, other countries have that have that issue.

Speaker 33 Again, it's kind of quick and raw in the minute. I would need to look back on exactly where it started to kind of

Speaker 33 slip away. But they were in a pretty poor run, mainly in Friendly, but a poor run coming into this.
It's not going well here. They're now in Group A of the Nations League, which is going to be tough.

Speaker 33 So, you know, there's going to have to be a lot of hard talking and hard thinking and hard planning as to how Scotland

Speaker 33 gets back to getting good results. Because they've done it before.
You said it, you know, they were excellent against Spain and beating Spain. They've shown they can do it.

Speaker 33 They have to get back to what they've just lost a little bit over the last few months.

Speaker 32 And what do you do now, Ewan? Find the nearest jazz bar,

Speaker 32 drown your sorrows with some scat in the background.

Speaker 33 The first thing I've got to do is not introduce myself to Steve Clark as Steve Clark.

Speaker 1 That would that

Speaker 27 would be that would be that would be progress tonight.

Speaker 32 I wasn't going to bring it up, but

Speaker 1 everyone else has.

Speaker 33 The first thing is that, and then I'm actually, I'm covering, my tournament's not finished. I'm covering Denmark against Serbia on Tuesday.
So

Speaker 33 I'm not yet leaving the country, but after that, it will be home for a break.

Speaker 32 Right. Oh, that's good of them.
They've given you a game from the worst group in the tournament just to finish it off.

Speaker 32 A tedious game where you might see the English progress and the other part of that group.

Speaker 32 That's a thank you you wanted.

Speaker 33 This game here wasn't the part. It was far from the best game I've ever seen, so I wouldn't take that personally.
Don't worry.

Speaker 32 No, you're all good. Cheers, Ewan.
Thanks for coming on, mate.

Speaker 33 Players, guys, all the best. Have a good one.

Speaker 32 You and Murray there, our Scottish football correspondent. Let's bring in the panel.

Speaker 32 Yeah, Nadim, it wasn't a good. I mean, the last 10 minutes, Ewan was right, right? That injury is obviously the most important part of it.
And we all hope that Barnum's Varga is okay.

Speaker 32 And that did affect the game. But before it, it was pretty terrible.
After it, it was pretty terrible.

Speaker 1 until injury time which pretty much was the only good 10 minutes of all of it yeah so that's why there's a story about just hanging in there making sure you stay to the very end because you may be rewarded with perhaps a shot you know the little things in football yeah it wasn't um it was nowhere near a great game to be honest i expected perhaps a bit more from two sides that you know in theory had to win the game as such but i think hungary probably

Speaker 1 They enjoyed playing the underdog more. I think the two sides, for the way they play, according to how I've seen them, you you kind of want someone else to have the ball.

Speaker 1 So, when Scotland had probably 70% of it through the first 20 minutes, you could sort of see a bit of a red flag there. They couldn't really create much.
Hungary were okay just sitting back in.

Speaker 1 And yeah, it was for me. It's probably the worst game of the tournament so far.
It's not to say that it was a bad, bad game,

Speaker 1 but it's not one that I think will make the DVD in it in a few months' time. Let's just say that.
It definitely happened.

Speaker 1 Hungary definitely have a chance, but nobody's going to be talking about that game come tomorrow.

Speaker 32 What other games are you adding to that?

Speaker 24 England, Denmark, England, Scotland?

Speaker 1 Those are classics by comparison.

Speaker 1 Don't tell me otherwise, don't you dare.

Speaker 32 So the penalty incident, Sanny.

Speaker 32 Stuart Armstrong's put through. It's weird, isn't it?

Speaker 34 Because it looks like he gets caught a bit, but he sort of spins around.

Speaker 32 Everyone on the BBC coverage, certainly on the TV, is unanimous that it's a penalty. I think I saw Shearer.
I thought Ian Wright tweeting that it's a penalty.

Speaker 16 But I am not...

Speaker 32 I don't think I'm doing this from a sort of, you know, I wanted Scotland to go through, but I don't, I'm not sure.

Speaker 35 I've turned this into a gif and put it on our group chat. So I've now watched it more than anyone, I think, in the world.

Speaker 35 And even now, I can't quite figure it out. I mean, BBC helpfully put a big circle over, and yeah, you see

Speaker 35 his leg come forward after the defender's shin or shin pad as well. It makes the connection as well.
But I mean,

Speaker 35 if you have to watch it a hundred times, almost in a literal sense, then clearly it can't really be given, you know, right? You know, if it's that marginal.

Speaker 32 One of those, if the ref gives it, it probably stays a penalty. If he doesn't, it doesn't.

Speaker 35 Yeah, I think so. I think so.
I mean, I wonder,

Speaker 35 you know, I wonder if this was my nation.

Speaker 35 Would I feel a sense of injustice? Is this how it feels looking at it almost objectively? And actually, it could have gone either way. And, you know,

Speaker 35 meanwhile,

Speaker 35 in the country that's affected, there's effigies of

Speaker 35 the Hungarian defender being made right now. The effigy shops in Scotland are doing roaring trade.
And by the way, I really do hope they still do DVDs for the Euros games, Nadem. It's

Speaker 32 the last man with a DVD player.

Speaker 1 Is that right? Yeah, I've kind of showed my age there, but they also did say VHS. So technically speaking, you know,

Speaker 1 I'm not that old, not yet.

Speaker 34 do we think that part of the reason why there is such force being put behind the it was a penalty decision maybe because Scotland offered so little in the rest of the game that this is everything that they had to put the had to put behind maybe

Speaker 32 maybe but I still think if you're I think if it's your team right

Speaker 32 although you and you and obviously couldn't tell, but if you're a fan, I think you probably just, you can't help but think that's a penalty.

Speaker 32 I mean, I wonder, Archie, if Stuart Armstrong just continues running forwards and doesn't sort of spin back around and end up behind the defender, it would look more like a penalty.

Speaker 34 Yeah, they've both got their arms in front of each other, if you look at it. And

Speaker 34 I just think it's dangerous because it covers up what is the bigger problem for Scotland, which has evidently been

Speaker 34 creating chances and playing well as a team, and

Speaker 34 having seen both their first two games and not much of this,

Speaker 34 albeit

Speaker 34 having seen Nadam's reactions in the group to this game, that told me enough about how Scotland were playing.

Speaker 34 It is a real shame that they're going home, particularly what they've done for

Speaker 34 the gastronomy business in Cologne.

Speaker 34 I've not seen more unanimous joy expressed about one nation or one group of fans coming over here. I've been reading an article about

Speaker 34 one beer hall here saying how

Speaker 34 they've had their employees saying we would like to do shifts while the Scotland fans are here. And in that same beer hall, someone saying that,

Speaker 34 yeah, well, one of them was

Speaker 34 pulling a beer so well that we got him behind the bar to help us out.

Speaker 34 So

Speaker 34 that side of it is

Speaker 34 good,

Speaker 34 as you touched on with Ewan, but just

Speaker 34 the lack of imagination and fantasy

Speaker 34 with which they played for the majority

Speaker 34 of their time, almost all of it in the tournament, and how even if you look at the two goals they did score, one was heavily deflected and the other was a very fortunate owned goal.

Speaker 34 So it's about bigger problems for Scotland than just this penalty decision.

Speaker 35 That freedom of movement, by the way, since we don't have it anymore,

Speaker 35 if that blow got paid to pour those pints, he's going to get deported anyway.

Speaker 32 Very good point. I mean, the word fantasy, even saying it in a, there wasn't any,

Speaker 32 seems sort of far-fetched, doesn't it? You're surprised, Nathan. You're saying, you know, both these sides, right? They both needed a win.
And

Speaker 32 neither of them seemed that bothered about that for quite a long time. Like, is that just because it's cagey, so you think, okay, let's not, let's just hang in there and go for it.

Speaker 32 But just, I mean, the first half was absolutely dire.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was it was tough. It was very, very tough.
But

Speaker 34 so it's just Nadam's expression as he says

Speaker 1 his hand over.

Speaker 1 So I will probably speak about like, you know, I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt to players doing something which I never did before. So to try and put myself into that position.

Speaker 1 But when you're a team that basically has a back five and one striker and 70% possession, it's not really the formula for success as such. And I think

Speaker 1 we saw that. And even when you talk about the penalty decision, those decisions are always bigger when there's nothing else to talk about.

Speaker 1 You know, they had a shot before that, and I couldn't even tell you what it was. But yeah, there was a shot, then the penalty call.
Both teams, obviously, they did want to go for it.

Speaker 1 I think Hungary themselves got a chance to play the way that they would have preferred to play.

Speaker 1 Whereas for Scotland, I think them having most of the ball, trying to break down a stubborn side, it doesn't feel like something that they're used to doing.

Speaker 1 And it certainly didn't look like that today either. So

Speaker 1 it was

Speaker 1 interesting, but not necessarily because it was good.

Speaker 32 It was interesting, but not interesting, is what you're trying to say.

Speaker 1 No, because you could always see the permutations. Because I'll be honest, I was, as a sicko, I hold my hand up here.

Speaker 1 I was hoping for Scotland to get a resort and they'd have to be relying on England to beat Slovenia when they play. And I thought, oh, look at all the Scots support in England.
How nice that is.

Speaker 1 The nations united together.

Speaker 1 Instead, Scotland,

Speaker 1 yeah, they're knocked out. And as they look back at that game, I'd I'd imagine they'll leave the field with a ton of regrets.

Speaker 1 And yes, you could say the penalty call, the penalty call, the penalty call. But as Archie said, across the three games, it'll just not be good enough.
Yeah.

Speaker 32 And you wonder, Archie, I guess, how much getting stuffed by Germany, like, how much that just...

Speaker 32 I know they weren't expected to win that game, but just that is just the worst way to start a tournament, isn't it?

Speaker 34 It makes me think about what you were saying with Ewan about the Spain game that they won.

Speaker 34 And I think that, again, that's the reality check with this: is that what happened against Germany is more likely to happen against

Speaker 34 the top teams for Scotland. And it's about developing a way where they can have more control over the outcome or maximise that as much as possible.
And against Germany, they stepped off so much

Speaker 34 to the point that

Speaker 34 the Germans were trying desperately hard to try and be polite in their in their post-match appraisals

Speaker 34 about that and the step up that that Hungary were going to offer, even if Hungary didn't offer as much of a step up as I think they were thinking.

Speaker 34 But yeah,

Speaker 34 I think that was the moment where

Speaker 34 they were shocked into the tournament. And as we'll get on to,

Speaker 34 Germany have

Speaker 1 had...

Speaker 34 had a difficult night

Speaker 34 compare if you compare it to what happened against Scotland. So yeah.

Speaker 1 It's just as well.

Speaker 34 Scotland have been weakened by not having two of their first choice back three that they started the tournament with since Ryan Porteus got sent off and Kieran Tierney got injured.

Speaker 34 So since then, you've had McKenna

Speaker 34 and Grant Hanley come in. I don't think that they would have anticipated having to play the roles that they were having to.
And especially as Nadum was saying, going like like you've got the ball

Speaker 1 did scotland prepare for having the ball probably not and i guess i guess you should prepare that a little bit like you know like

Speaker 35 sanny did you want to have a final thought on this che adams has had two shots across 210 minutes of football um

Speaker 35 you know he had that one shot today blazed over the bar you know he's left on his own he wasn't really offering anything you've got billy gilmore who as we've established is a very neat pass of the ball, playing one-touch passes back to Grant Hanley in defense, and Andy Robertson throwing his hands up in the air.

Speaker 35 Yeah, with all that possession, to have so little to offer, it's just really frustrating when you think

Speaker 35 there's enough in there to offer something, right?

Speaker 35 If Hungary is going to sit back and go to that 5-4-1 straight away, you know, how rare is it to have a game where...

Speaker 35 Both teams just have to win. A draw will not do it on any context.
You can't play for penalties. There's no way around it but a win.

Speaker 35 And for it to just come alive in the last 10 minutes, you know, plus injury time, it's

Speaker 35 a real mess. And I'm kind of picking on Chey Adams because you could pick on loads of players.

Speaker 35 But it's most evident when the striker has not really offered anything, not really had the ball to offer anything. It's just, you know, why couldn't they have that sense of urgency so much earlier?

Speaker 35 And I think ultimately this will come down to the manager Steve Clark and his, you know, his

Speaker 35 ways, his cool temper and all that could have offered a lot more, I think.

Speaker 1 So, as all the listeners who recognise my voice know, I never like to make it about me, but I'm going to make it about me again. Right.

Speaker 1 2014-15, it was QPR versus Reading towards the end of the season, and one team, two teams played against each other.

Speaker 1 Someone needed to win to guarantee they'll be in the Premier League for another week without being relegated or whatever. And the game at the Majeski finished 0-0.

Speaker 1 So, that is a sort of feeling that I got from this game today. One of those games which was on primetime TV.
But again, if you weren't there, it's a great thing to not discuss.

Speaker 1 But this is the way football goes. Can I just ask, how were Hungary tonight?

Speaker 32 It's a good point. I mean, they didn't do a whole lot.
I think they created a bit more. I don't know what you think.
It's only like Shobuzai hit the post.

Speaker 32 They had a few chances in that injury time bit. They have slightly technically better players, I think.

Speaker 24 I don't know.

Speaker 32 And

Speaker 32 look, they had the moment where they scored the goal. It was a classic counter-attack.
And it was like a wonderful moment for them. Like that celebration was wonderful.

Speaker 32 And when you think about how, you know, desperate a lot of those players seemed when Varga got injured and went down,

Speaker 32 it's a wonderful moment for them. They don't obviously know if they're through yet, but they were okay in a game that we don't.
Listen, Brenton said, Scotland are bad. We don't need 10 minutes on why.

Speaker 32 We've done 20 minutes. So like, we've done well there.

Speaker 3 We have really performed.

Speaker 1 I was watching that.

Speaker 32 At first, I was like, how are are we going to get 20 minutes out of that? But somehow we've managed it. We're going to do a bit less on a much better game.

Speaker 32 Switzerland won, Germany won in just a second.

Speaker 35 Were you asking me a question there? Did you start?

Speaker 1 You started asking me, and you just...

Speaker 32 I did, but you know, just the podcast moved on.

Speaker 32 You didn't have that answer, but no one's going to hear it. We'll be back in a second.

Speaker 2 Hi, Pod fans of America. Max here.
Barry's here too.

Speaker 3 Hello.

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Speaker 32 Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. Switzerland won, Germany won.

Speaker 32 Obviously, finished with you know absolute big number nine, Nicholas Fulkrig, with a brilliant header, Archie. But Switzerland were better in this game, weren't they?

Speaker 34 For the first time in this tournament, a team tried to press Germany high up

Speaker 34 and

Speaker 34 they succeeded in knocking Germany off their stride.

Speaker 34 And whilst there was still enough wriggling free from Jamal Musiala and still showing why I think he's been one of the sparkliest players at this tournament, no team has managed to, no team, Scotland and Hungary have not managed to get

Speaker 34 did not manage to get as good a grip on him as Switzerland did.

Speaker 34 And

Speaker 34 they only had

Speaker 34 three shots, I think,

Speaker 34 up until the 75th minute, I think it was at least. And Germany struggled to be effective for long periods of the game.
And for the first time, Julian Nagelsmann had

Speaker 34 to dive deep and try out different things.

Speaker 34 And eventually he got to, hmm, what if I get the guy who's put in the most crosses in the Bundesliga this season to whack it into one of the best headerers of the ball in the Bundesliga this season.

Speaker 34 And it paid off. And I think that there is, there's a, that there will be a growing noise in Germany about

Speaker 34 whether Kai Havertz should be sacrificed for big number nine in Nicholas Fulkrug because

Speaker 34 having somebody like Fulkrug who will just is happy to stay there and accept that pressure in a way that Kai Havertz always wants to kind of move free and swim about a bit, which which can work.

Speaker 1 But just

Speaker 34 when you're trying to do what Germany were doing, it felt more like Fulkrug was going to be offering them that different option that they needed because

Speaker 34 they were putting in crosses to no avail for other parts of this game.

Speaker 32 Yeah, I mean, there is.

Speaker 32 I don't know what you think, Sonny. Like, I love a big number nine, probably more than anyone, but it almost feels ethically

Speaker 32 wrong to go for full Krugova Kai Havat.

Speaker 35 It's almost like the opposite and yet the same as the clamour to start Michael Owen in 98, the World Cup, ahead of Teddy Sheringham,

Speaker 35 but for totally different reasons. Put him in, put him in.
Yeah, again,

Speaker 35 a lovely cross. Of course, when the header goes back the other way,

Speaker 35 it's just a thing of beauty, isn't it?

Speaker 35 It's really lovely, heartwarming almost, actually, to see a big man used so well in the tournament you know he did everything you know we were focusing on scotland hungry game he did everything we kind of dreamed and dreamt that adam adam might actually do for hungry we i know when he we have touched a ball in the three games but yeah fulcrug is the exact opposite of that um yeah absolutely lovely and um i hope i hope he gets all the plaudits uh and Yeah, I suppose if the Germany manager is more dynamic than the England manager, then he'll pick the team that can do the job.

Speaker 35 And Fulcrug's certainly a player who can do that.

Speaker 1 I think, Naden, we were all obviously focused on Scotland, but but i i mean really early on my eyes were just drawn that's what happens when you're watching two screens your eyes are just drawn to the better game and i was i i loved how switzerland attacked in this game and a doi and um bolo it's a really exciting front too actually yeah absolutely is and it's the whole thing about speed and power no matter how good a defense can be that can really scare teams and there were so many times when in transition you could see them taking the ball forward there were some good balls playing in behind to them and even though they didn't have a ton of shots today you could see the the sort of threat that they did pose so credit to switzerland i i was a sucker i thought they were going to do it i thought they were going to hold on and win the game obviously that's not the case when big full crews on the pitch but this is yeah i quite like switzerland i wasn't so sure about them after the scotland game because i thought scotland made a really good go of that but i don't know whether that was a reaction to the scotland game against germany but in this one I thought they looked good.

Speaker 1 I think they looked like the team who we tend to see in the knockout rounds of these competitions.

Speaker 1 And for them to get that result, obviously it means they are in second but to get that result against the whole germany side is is pretty impressive to me and yeah more power to them i would say if there is a

Speaker 34 a coach who has been the tactical winner of the group stages i would say it's probably murat yakin

Speaker 34 for going with three different lineups where he's made changes specific to each opponent

Speaker 34 where I don't think the opponents would have reckoned with Ebischer playing on the left-hand side in a very unfamiliar role to begin with, which he's done very well throughout.

Speaker 34 And then in this game, having played Shakiri from the start in the last one, dropping him, bringing him Umbolo from the start, and Reeder as well,

Speaker 34 who was influential in creating that first goal for Switzerland as well. I think that, yeah, all of his gambles have paid off.

Speaker 34 And one thing that Julian Nagsman said about Jakin as well is that Switzerland have also completely changed the way they were playing

Speaker 34 in qualification. They were playing much more with possession, and in this tournament, they've been mostly effective on the break, but doing it very well and looking like a solid unit.
So

Speaker 34 I think they're a very awkward team who I wouldn't want to have in the round of 16.

Speaker 1 Archie, I need your opinion of what the nation think, because I feel like if this was to do with, say, a home nation like England and the manager was making three, four changes every game, people will be pulling their hair out saying he needs to lose his job.

Speaker 1 But are the Swiss happy with that? Because they see that as a strength or did he perceive that to be weakness?

Speaker 34 I don't know what the Swiss think, but I know that Murat Yakin and Granit Zhaka

Speaker 34 had a big falling out in the winter, which they then put their differences to one side because

Speaker 3 for

Speaker 34 Zhaka's, from Jacques's point of view, the intensity of the training was too low. And he called that out

Speaker 34 in an interview.

Speaker 1 And Jakin was not happy about that. But

Speaker 34 they set their differences aside. And I think that from

Speaker 34 what I do know about Switzerland is that there is this whole, okay,

Speaker 34 we've promised much, but we haven't gone as far in a tournament as, say, somebody like Croatia, which is, I think, maybe a comparable smaller nation, and wondering, can they overachieve in a similar fashion?

Speaker 34 And look at the last Euros. They beat France on penalties in a game that nobody was really expecting them to compete in, particularly when they're 3-1 down.
And also,

Speaker 34 they took Spain to penalties and only lost there. So

Speaker 1 I think that, look,

Speaker 34 there were doubts coming into this tournament about whether they had enough of a goal scorer who was fit. But the way Mbolo's looked, particularly since he's,

Speaker 34 whenever he's been on the pitch, you can understand why expectations are there i think the only

Speaker 34 the only little chink in the armor today was jan zomma being very fortunate to win the disallowed goal from brother took quite a big bounce i thought oh the pitch in frankfurt i'm being judged in frankfurt we could go on it's been it's been terrible since they had the nfl game in november and it was all that was being talked about before this particularly after what happened during the england game as well

Speaker 34 Do you want a bet on Germany?

Speaker 1 Just

Speaker 1 a round off?

Speaker 32 Yeah, I mean, it seemed, they were playing. Seems like a good idea.

Speaker 34 Yeah.

Speaker 34 So the things that will come out of this will be, as mentioned, should Nicholas Phil Krug start up front instead of Kai Havertz?

Speaker 34 But also at centre-back now, Yonatentar

Speaker 34 is out for the round of 16 game.

Speaker 32 Bring in Matt Hummels, right?

Speaker 1 He'd be the last guy to bring in for team spirit, I'll tell you that.

Speaker 34 So likely to be Nico to be Nico Schlottebeck who will play instead. He came on for him in the second half.
But Antonio Rudiger also did not have a great game.

Speaker 34 This was very much national team Rudiger rather than Real Madrid Rudiger as well. So there will be some doubts there.

Speaker 34 And

Speaker 34 whether... whether this approach from Nagelsman,

Speaker 34 which is high risk, but whether sometimes he needs to love himself a little less and go for the straightforward option and not the, look, I'm going to show you how great a tactician I am, which is, I think,

Speaker 34 sometimes the hole he can fall into because he is an exceptionally bright guy.

Speaker 1 But as you saw, sometimes in football, it's just about...

Speaker 34 Whip it into the big man. Yeah.
And that will make a difference.

Speaker 32 Yeah. A little less skateboard, a little more 4-4-2.

Speaker 32 You mentioned Xhaka there. Actually, Sanny, Xhaka was brilliant again.
I mean, he's obviously having like the time of his life at the moment.

Speaker 35 He is.

Speaker 35 I mean, you run out of superlatives for him.

Speaker 35 You know, players you could keep in that team. He's the one you couldn't ever lose.

Speaker 35 Another player, by the way, and I've just been double-checking the stats. Remo Freule, who's actually on loan from Nottingham Forest, had a very good game, good cross for the goal.

Speaker 35 He got two assists in this tournament, and I wanted to double-check two assists in three games. The other one was the pass to Arbisher who scored from the edge of the area.

Speaker 35 Simple one for Hungary but you know the stat people be picking up. Yeah, Jacka, brilliant, brilliant and

Speaker 35 more to come from him. And Freuler, I don't know.
Could he get back into the forest side or just another player that he can sell on and make a huge loss on? I don't know.

Speaker 35 But forest fans, you know, keep your eye on him.

Speaker 32 Does this result have any impact on where you see Germany? Because I think before this game, Nathan, it was like Germany and Spain had been the standout teams.

Speaker 1 I think if they would have finished second, maybe, yes, perhaps. Although, you know, finishing second on six points would still take some doing, but I think they're very, very tidy side.

Speaker 1 With that home advantage,

Speaker 1 I do take them very seriously.

Speaker 1 Was it a year ago, Archie, when they were like losing every game and the place was in crisis? So they're all of a sudden it's like, oh, no, no, we're all good. We're Germany.
The tournament's here.

Speaker 1 Everyone's feeling themselves. Look, you're an exciting team.
And that's the way I still perceive them now. But listen, I'm not over there.
What do I know?

Speaker 32 Yeah, especially they've got that guy with the saxophone that everybody likes.

Speaker 35 So, you know, oh, I love that guy, Andre Schnurr.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I like that guy.

Speaker 32 Um, Archie, you presumably have done this, and I should have done this. Who do we know who Germany will play? Like,

Speaker 32 have you done those permutations now?

Speaker 34 Germany will play

Speaker 34 second in England's group,

Speaker 15 right?

Speaker 1 Could it be England?

Speaker 1 We're being haunted. Yeah.

Speaker 32 And I quite like, you know, haunted house.

Speaker 32 Yeah, or as producer Joel says, Nedimano.

Speaker 32 Anyway, I did like this question from Joey. He said, in commentary, Martin Keown likened Granite Jacker to a lieutenant before changing that to a traffic warden.

Speaker 32 Is this the quickest and most brutal demotion in history? It's an excellent question. That'll do for part two.

Speaker 32 Part three, we'll talk about the current immigrant players hitting back at former England players who also haven't won tournaments.

Speaker 2 HiPod fans of America, Max here. Barry's here too.

Speaker 3 Hello.

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Speaker 32 Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 32 Before we look at tomorrow's games, let's talk about the sort of fallout of...

Speaker 32 Gary Lineke saying that the England game performance against Denmark was shit, and then a journalist asking Harry Kane if he thought Gary Lineker should say that the performance was shit.

Speaker 32 I think mainly just because the journalist wanted to say the word shit. And I mean, I've said it a lot of times in the last 20 seconds.
And it's, you know, it can be quite enjoyable.

Speaker 32 TS says, should Gary Lineker stick to politics and keep away from football? So Harry Kane, in reply, said, look, we haven't won anything as a nation for a long, long time.

Speaker 32 And a lot of these players were part of that as well. And they know how tough it is.
So it's not digging anyone out.

Speaker 32 It's just the reality that they do know it is tough to play in these major tournaments and tough to play for England. Declan Reiser said something similar.

Speaker 32 What do you make of that, Nadem?

Speaker 32 I think it's quite good for these players to actually say, well, you know, these guys, I don't like you've never played the game, but they can say you've been here and you've also not done this.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's the whole, respectfully, what are you talking about?

Speaker 1 I think, was it after the first game where they won, they're not saying that's the second time England have won their opening game in a group at the Euros. Second time.
Like, like, what?

Speaker 1 Like, that's such a ridiculous stat. How, how is that the case?

Speaker 34 What?

Speaker 1 The Golden Generation never won their first game at the group. You know, the Euros.
Like, what are we talking about? I'll be honest.

Speaker 1 I was watching the BBC coverage for the game, and at halftime, I was seeing Gary Alineke, Micah, and Rio Fernand have like panic attacks whilst trying to give analysis about the game.

Speaker 1 And I thought, guys, guys, guys, guys, guys, guys, guys, guys, guys, guys.

Speaker 1 Like, you're working. You know, the cameras are on.
Everybody relax. Let's talk about the game.
But that sort of level of emotion, I think it's at times they do forget that other perspective.

Speaker 1 I think Kane and others,

Speaker 1 I like the fact that they're speaking up because they know themselves that they've not played as well as they would like to.

Speaker 1 So, when those guys who have a big platform, a big voice, and have the history are saying this and saying that, it's amazing.

Speaker 1 And I found this myself: how you can always see the answer when there's nothing on the sort of line for you to figure it out. All you need to do is do this, and that would have fixed it.

Speaker 1 66 is a long time ago, but all they needed to do was do this. Every two years, just do this.
Easiest thing in the world. So I like the fact that Kate's speaking up.

Speaker 1 I like the fact that Rice is speaking up. And I think if the two of them are doing it, it's a conscious effort from the team to remind people that, you know, this team are trying.

Speaker 1 But historically, things haven't necessarily been great for English football. But they are endeavoring to do it.
And it seems like they're together.

Speaker 1 And if the sort of media go against them or, say, former players go against them, I think they're going to hold their ground now and just try and stick with each other. And who knows?

Speaker 1 Maybe that could be the difference forwards.

Speaker 32 Yeah, I mean, I suppose the thing is, it becomes like any culture or archery, it becomes binary when actually, you know, the performance was bad, right? The game was bad, but also,

Speaker 32 I suppose there's an interesting case with Nineke, who is obviously doing a TV. You know, he's doing the TV.

Speaker 32 Well, yeah, they were sort of hammering certainly Harry Kane at halftime, but they do it in a BBC way. And then he does a podcast and he swears.
Who would would swear on a podcast?

Speaker 32 But then those things are sort of fired back at the players. I think it's

Speaker 32 quite interesting, I think.

Speaker 1 From afar,

Speaker 34 it feels like

Speaker 34 all of the criticism since the game has been, because everybody was so bad, which I think was down to the coach, which is a separate thing.

Speaker 34 It's almost as if everyone has gone, right, who don't I like in the England team? And I'm going to to go after them now. And it's just, it's felt like everyone's teed off.

Speaker 34 The bigger issue for me is, again, we're losing sight of what is actually happening here, and that is it's an incoherent, I incoherent overall system which is being played by Gareth Southgate, and how nobody in the team really knows what they're meant to do.

Speaker 34 And when I compare that with Germany, who are coming off their weakest performance of the tournament so far, but at least everybody knows what their roles are and what's trying to be done, I cannot tell you, Max, the level of vitriol.

Speaker 34 I mean, we've had enough swears in the pods, so here's another. The amount of times I heard people say wanker around me, every time Jordan Pickford lumped the ball forward.

Speaker 34 And the way I saw a half-naked man coming out the stadium,

Speaker 34 foaming Southgate out, Southgate out.

Speaker 32 Was he half naked, uh, shirt off, or was he shirt top, top, no bottoms?

Speaker 1 Shirts.

Speaker 34 Okay, topless would probably have been a better way of putting this.

Speaker 34 To come back to your original point, it is about emotions, but

Speaker 34 but also

Speaker 34 it then gets viewed through the prism of, well, it gets daily mailified because Gary Lineker's name has that status, doesn't it? People only say Gary Lineker.

Speaker 34 It's never just Shearer said this it's always he gets full name appreciation so yeah which always comes into this outrage mode but yeah i would come back to what are the actual problems and i would say that it's a dysfunctional team um with an unclear plan and nobody seems sure exactly what they're meant to do and people are are taking their own ideas in the team and not working together and i just hope for this final game that you know forget this we need positive energy That people need to know what they're doing.

Speaker 34 And then maybe that will produce something better.

Speaker 32 Yeah. And actually, and then tribal loyalties come in, sort of club loyalties come in, Sammy.

Speaker 32 So actually, I was quite critical, not of Trent Alexander Arnold, but of playing him in central midfield when we have central midfielders who could do that.

Speaker 32 And then instantly, like a thousand Liverpool fans say, you're an idiot.

Speaker 32 And, you know, and the same could be said if you criticise Tony Gallagher or whoever, you know, because there's that weird loyalty within it as well.

Speaker 35 Yeah, there is. There is that.
I suppose.

Speaker 35 By the way, very interesting of Gary Lineke to almost Easter egg his podcast into his BBC presenting there, by the way, with the little stepping out and going into the podcast mode as a chat.

Speaker 35 But yeah, yeah, I suppose Lineke has that Tottenham connection, so I suppose he could speak from that authority as well. What I would say is, like, you know, you've got two strikers there.

Speaker 35 Specifically on the BBC coverage anyway, Lineke and Shira both know the position. And it's very rare we've ever actually heard Gary Lineke take away from this presenter role and actually give that.

Speaker 35 He's getting out of his chair and he's trying to get in position and stuff. And actually, I find that quite refreshing.

Speaker 35 And, you know, these players, okay, I get the point, and the argument completely stands from what Harry Kane's been saying. But, you know, like

Speaker 35 you gotta, you gotta take this on the chin. You know, it was an insipid performance.
If you try and sugarcoat it as anything else, then you're sorely mistaken.

Speaker 1 So I think all this will do.

Speaker 35 And, you know, I was desperately trying to look at what the back pages already are. I haven't quite found them yet.
But I'm sure, you know, it's mana from heaven for the red tops.

Speaker 35 They'll be all over it, won't they?

Speaker 35 By the way, I was covering a bike race today, the British National Road Championships, and I was on a windy uphill bit.

Speaker 35 And

Speaker 35 the X4 bus was going past.

Speaker 35 It was a white and green Arriva kind of long bus. The rear end was all covered in bird shit.
Sorry, that's another swear word as well.

Speaker 35 And as it creeped round, very functional, we're not very glamorous and dull and got stuck on the corner. Eventually came around, I noticed a sign.
It was called Gareth Southgate.

Speaker 35 I thought, that's what.

Speaker 32 But the bus was called Gareth Southgate.

Speaker 1 The bus was called Gareth Southgate.

Speaker 32 Where's its name today? It's like on the front?

Speaker 35 On the side, like you know, like where you get it on trains, yeah. So the bus was called Gareth Southgate.
The salt bin by the sea to Middlesbrough X4 bus is named Gareth Southgate.

Speaker 32 That's a Middlesbrough connection. Did the had the driver taken the handbrake off?

Speaker 1 That's the key question.

Speaker 35 It was a very steep hill, so probably had it on for quite a bit, actually.

Speaker 32 Nadem, can I ask, have you thought what England should do, personnel-wise?

Speaker 1 Have I thought about it? Yes, but then I also don't know in depth about Slovenia, to be honest. So I don't know what those matchups would be.
I would personally like to see

Speaker 1 two midfielders in there. A bit deeper, because as I think, as I look at the better teams around, that tends to be the way that it goes.
I think whether you see like a Rodri, Fabian Ruiz,

Speaker 1 whether you're seeing like a Cruz and Andrich or other teams who have the ability to drop too deep to be able to build out, maybe then Pickford won't play as long as often.

Speaker 1 But then also, I think England needs to find a way to stretch the game, because if they do that, then it could gain more territory, which is something that I think they've really struggled with in the last few games.

Speaker 1 But again, like, to put it into perspective, Garasovgate is under a lot of pressure, but I think the players themselves know that they're not playing well.

Speaker 1 And some of it could be down to the manager, but there's also a sense of personal pride, which they need to address as well.

Speaker 1 Because some players played well in that first game, but had stinkers in the second game. And considering the team was the same, then it surely shouldn't have changed that much.
So

Speaker 1 I think their minds will be set for it. They'll be motivated.
They'll want to try and address it. And I'm going to put a little bit of positive spin on this.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 There's no way they'll be as bad in game three as they were in game two. So as a consequence, they're likely.

Speaker 1 Just imagine. They're likely.

Speaker 1 And again, like, it's such a, it's, it's a stupid game. Really is a stupid game because the crisis talks around England who've got four points.

Speaker 1 And there are other teams who would do anything to have four points. You know, they'd do anything for it.
So England can finish with seven and it's been unglamorous.

Speaker 1 But then they'll play a, I think it's a third-place team from one of the groups potentially. And they'll probably enter that as favourites.
Like, what happens if they round into form?

Speaker 1 All of a sudden, you've got one of the most dangerous teams in a tournament. So yeah, I spoke into existence.
Have that.

Speaker 34 One final thing I need to mention about Harry Kane.

Speaker 34 Watching him the other day, I think that his back back injury that he ended the season with at Bayern is plaguing him more than he is letting on.

Speaker 34 And I'm worried that he's trying to play through that pain.

Speaker 32 He's done that before, hasn't he? He's done that before for Tottenham in big games.

Speaker 34 When Thomas Tuchel's talking about him having injections to get through the Real Madrid buying game, I'm thinking, well, this is pretty serious.

Speaker 34 And

Speaker 34 he needs to be at a higher level of fitness to be able to help. And so it brings the question as well.

Speaker 34 I think Bellingham is also in that position.

Speaker 34 Are the players able to sacrifice themselves for the cause in this instance? And that would be my one worry about Harry Kane.

Speaker 32 Yeah. And no one's going to say they're injured, right, Nadam? No one.
I think they can rise to this. No one is going to say to the gather, I'm a bit tired.

Speaker 1 How does that even work? Do you go to find the manager to tell him that you're injured and you can't play?

Speaker 1 Or does the manager come look into you, look you in the eye and say, hey, are are you struggling a little bit? There's a big game coming up.

Speaker 1 Well, unfortunately, or fortunately, there's a level of like desire and want to be out there.

Speaker 1 But as Archie's sort of saying, if you are really physically limited, I think the manager makes the decision anyway.

Speaker 32 But isn't medical science like you know, people do medicals, like, aren't they, don't, don't they know? They track these players, they know exactly

Speaker 32 what zone they're in, etc., etc.

Speaker 1 Yeah, of course they do, but then what at what point do you not play your captain? Is it when he's at 90%? Is it when he's at 80%? You know, what is that exact moment?

Speaker 1 And I think if he's if he is struggling and England needs to play it a certain way, then maybe he shouldn't play.

Speaker 1 But if he sits on the bench and he's capable of playing in the game, you know, you're talking about Southgate under pressure. Just imagine that one.
See how that goes.

Speaker 35 Didn't we say a few pods ago now in the build-up to this that like England had managed to get like the scent of of of Wembley or something on the grass like pumped into the into the bedrooms or whatever or the smell of St.

Speaker 35 George's Park, and they'd had like the fragrance put in and these marginal gains.

Speaker 35 So you're saying England have done all these marginal gains trying to make everything work together, and yet they won't be aware or won't know if the captain has a back injury or not.

Speaker 35 It seems very kind of lopsided in the thing. He's surely they're aware.

Speaker 32 Tomorrow, Croatia-Italy is a huge game because Croatia have to win. And if they do win, they may knock Italy out.
Spain are through. They could rest players against Albania.

Speaker 32 I mean, their second string is still pretty good. But if Albania win that one and Croatia win, then Italy are out completely.
Well, that seems unlikely, but there's lots to play for tomorrow.

Speaker 32 We'll, of course, review that on tomorrow's pod. The Albania forward, Emilin Daku, has been banned for two matches after leading his country's fans in derogatory chance.

Speaker 32 He apologised on social media on Friday. UEFA also fined the Albanian Football Association 25,000 euros for transmitting provocative messages not fit for a sports event.

Speaker 32 There have also been fines for both the Albanian and Croatian federations for pitch invasions and the lighting of fireworks.

Speaker 32 And there's also been issues with the Serbian team, and they've complained about that. And when we have a bit more time, we will talk about that in a bit more depth.
But that'll do for today.

Speaker 32 Thank you, Nadin.

Speaker 1 Thank you very much.

Speaker 32 Thank you, Archie. Thank you.
Thanks, Sunny. Thank you.
People Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is Christian Ben.

Speaker 1 This is the Guardian.