France stall against Netherlands and Austria on the up – Football Daily

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

It's taken eight days, but France and the Netherlands serve up the Euro's first goalless draw.

A game not without incident.

Javi Simon's denied a famous goal that has caused controversy.

A straightforward decision?

Or is it English referees ruining the fun?

Elsewhere, Ukraine put in a resilient display to get their first points on the board, coming from behind to beat Slovakia with a Bergkamp-esque goal.

Ralph Ranjik continues to show Manchester United what they're missing.

A full throttle performance from his Austria side to send Poland out of the competition.

Away from the Euros, a goalless draw with Gibraltar, the last straw for the Welsh FA, Rob Page is dismissed as Wales coach, a riposse to the claim that Barry Island is scary, and a podcast archivist answers answers the call to re-listen to Football Weekly's post-match analysis of England's draw with Scotland at Euro 2020 with predictable results.

All that, plus your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

For the more observant among you, you might have noticed I'm not Max Rushton.

After taking part in the tamest stag doing history, he won the croquet.

He's gorging on Froie Gras.

Max has passed up the chance of taking part in a park run in the morning and is spending the next couple of days at Speaker's Corner spouting propaganda about Adam Wharton.

So it's me, Robin Cowan, in charge for the next couple of days.

And with me on the panel today, Barry Glenn Denning.

Hello.

Hello, Robin.

Filippo Claire Bonjour.

Bonjour, bonjour, Robin.

And from Not the Top 20, which has had a summer rebrand as an England podcast, for now, it's Ali Maxwell.

Hello, Robin.

Hi, everyone.

Right, let's get going then.

Netherlands, nil.

France, nil.

Bianna said: if this Zabby Simmons goal is given, will Baz be reaching for the sock?

Sorry, she's real.

Barry, this is going to run and run, my friend.

It's important to note that the sock isn't the first thing I reach for.

Yeah, I'm a big Zabbi Simmons fan.

It's no secret.

Based on

one performance against Arsenal in the Europa League, I think it was a couple of seasons ago, I decided he's the next Pele.

And

I'll be honest,

when he scored that goal and it was disallowed for the Denzel Dumfries offside, eventually,

I thought, yeah, that's the correct decision.

because Dumfries is clearly in the goalkeeper's way.

And then

Philippe went on the WhatsApp group to say it was an outrage.

The goal shouldn't have been

coming from a French man, that seems a bit odd.

So then I looked at it again and again,

and I looked at the ifab rules.

So I think, according to our old friend, the letter of the law, it should have been allowed, but I think it probably shouldn't because Denzil Dumfries was clearly in the keeper's way.

Although, just before we went on air, I saw the BBC ponderatory crew make a good case to say that

Magnon wouldn't have been able to reach the ball anyway.

But I think that is kind of beside the point.

But it's a contentious decision.

I would say ultimately the draw was probably a fair result in a game everyone was looking forward to, and I thought was probably the worst of the three played today in terms of entertainment value.

Well, it wasn't, it kind of undulated a bit, but yeah, possibly of today.

So Philippe, with your apost, did you, you felt that it should have stood?

Yes, I think it should have stood actually.

To start with, I didn't because I saw that from the side and I thought that Dumfries was actually much closer to Mignon

than was the case when you see the shot from behind the goal and you realize there's actually quite a lot of distance and the ball is a long way away from Mignon and he's hit hard and true and there's no way he can get to the ball.

But to be honest, this kind of decision I would say is subjective.

When you look at the IFAB

recommendations,

there is scope for some interpretation of whether it is a correct decision or not.

But what I find absolutely astonishing is that once the decision had been taken on the field of play, with a clear indication that it was flagged outside, that it should take so long for the decision to be taken, which is also not in keeping with what we've been seeing in the tournament at all.

And to Anthony Taylor and Stuart Atwell.

We shouldn't mention that.

But as a completely neutral Frenchman,

I wouldn't have been howling and tearing my hair what's left of it if the goal had been allowed to stand.

But in the end, yeah, perhaps the right result.

Very strange game, I thought.

I mean, two teams which looked a bit like

they knew that the nil-nil was perfectly fine for them and therefore not taking any undue risks.

But two teams as well, which have got real threat in their forward lines, as the Dutch showed through Gakpo immediately, which I think actually made the French actually think: ooh, hold on a minute here, let's not take risks with those guys.

And when the French actually changed gears, even in the absence of Kirimbappe, they looked really threatening and they should have had two goals if it hadn't been for my dear friend Adria Rabio, enduring a performance which I think encapsulates his very essence, which means mixing the really, really good in terms of getting the ball back, in particular, some lovely exchanges, triangle, and then taking some absolutely absurd decisions.

Yeah, one in particular.

Oh, that was just insane.

I mean, it is absolutely insane.

But anyway.

uh the the the french actually had a number of chances which is why i'm i'm i'm really not particularly worried at all about lebleux beppe will be back That's fine.

I was really happy to see Gruismann didn't show any sign of feeling, you know, his horrible twisted knee had the other day.

And the other thing is that I think the French should not be judged on games like this.

Other teams manage games.

Deschamps French manage tournaments.

And there's a huge difference.

Like if you compare, you would say, well, they were a bit like the English.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

They were always in charge of things.

And if they had had needed to change something they would have changed something it's just that the way they work and it's at times really boring because you think with the talent they've got when you see and go cante who again was magnificent tonight what he brings when he's going forward uh when you see some you know as soon as it speeds up it's really impressive but yeah nil nil that's fine uh last nil nil apparently was uh england scotland wasn't it uh and at the euro yeah more on that later 51 51 games ago, apparently.

The last nil-nil.

Knocked me down with a feather.

The English are involved.

But I think, you know, nothing to be too unduly concerned for France.

Saliba looks superb.

Mike Meignon, I thought, was terrific as well.

And I think plenty of reasons to be quite satisfied on the Dutch side as well.

Yeah, just on that, Philippe, you drew the comparison with England, you know, in their second group game and their pattern of that.

So I'm guessing the reaction from the French media and supporters won't be quite as hysterical or is that?

no it won't be i mean there will be loads of comments about the fact that i mean we didn't propose anything didn't take any risks and deschamps will come from a lot of flag for that but i don't think anybody is going to make a tragedy out of it because france to be honest they're more or less through on they so

no i don't think there's going to be that there will be some uh there will be some questioning as there always will because despite the fact that Deschamps is by some distance the most successful international manager of modern times and he is there will always be questioning.

I mean, I think people will recognize that it's a typical Deschamps performance.

We don't take risks.

We are solid.

We are not very good in front of goal at the moment for some strange reason.

But it won't be anything like

what we've read and what we've heard about England.

And I think with reason, because England felt really awful.

This just feels like, yeah, okay, it's another one of those.

And we'll see you later.

We'll see you in the semis.

We'll see you in the final.

The usual thing.

Clip that up.

Although I don't think we'll need to.

I think you'll probably be proved right, Philippe.

Yeah, let's go back to that moment.

John says, what is Rabio?

Perhaps after tonight, Rabio isn't Rabio, or maybe that this is Rabio squared or cubed.

I mean, is Rabio, is Rabio, is Rabio

just so unselfish, bizarre decision-making?

Yeah, Rabio in headlights, I think.

Not used to being

lovely stuff.

Not good.

Perhaps not not used to being in situations like that and and definitely a pass first player I actually think he completed all but one of his passes in this game and there was a moment where I thought maybe that was the one that wouldn't be completed but actually I suppose statistically it did get to Griezmann so it would have counted as a pass completed yeah a bizarre you do get these players don't you who anyone that plays football at any level actually in moments like that always takes the shot because they want the glory and then you you occasionally get these and I think they can be quite magical players who almost are allergic to shooting unless they absolutely have to.

I think of Mezer Erzil springs to mind, and there are others as well.

And clearly, Rabio has that mentality.

Poor Griezmann ends up looking a bit silly, but

he had a couple of chances elsewhere.

Well, I think both teams had opportunities, didn't they?

I think overall, Philippe has explained it well.

I felt convinced, despite a French performance that some might find unconvincing.

So there's a convincingness in their unconvincing unconvincing displays, which England do not have the pleasure of.

And the thing that I'm left most excited about, and there'll be some football nerdery, I'm afraid, on this podcast.

I'm a big permutations guy, is that there is a scenario where if France win 2-1 in their final group game and the Netherlands win 1-0, then the two teams will have the exact same record of wins, draws, losses, goals scored, goals conceded.

And as we go into the final game, they've also both picked up two yellow cards in the competition.

So they can't be split right now on fair play.

So if they get the same amount of cards and those two results, quite a few ifs there, then I believe, and I've checked with a few smarter people than me, France will go through top on what I think is called qualifying ranking.

And I don't know how that is calculated, but they will go through top.

No, no, I was wondering if it was going to be alphabetical order.

Or UFO ranking or UFO coefficient.

No, but it would be because France has got a better record in qualifying because they only drew that game at the very last game in the qualifiers, whereas the Netherlands were not quite as

lost twice to France, I think.

That's right, yes.

Yeah, yeah, so that would be it.

Oh, my goodness.

Yeah, I will say it's not even close on this qualifying ranking.

I'm told that France are second in the whole tournament on that, and Netherlands 18th.

Wow.

Goodness me.

Yeah.

Barry, on the Dutch,

Jeremy Fringpong came in.

He was straight into the action.

I felt they looked a lot better than they did in their first game

against Poland.

I did that game, and they basically just really struggled to break down quite a defensive side.

So maybe this suited them a little bit more.

Yeah,

their plan was

to...

Keep things tight and attack on the break with their speedy speed merchants, Gakpo, Fringpong and pay

and and that's what they did attacking on the break at speed and

you know it worked up to a point they didn't score but they had some chances and

i was quite impressed with the three of those and and simmons as well it's a game france probably dominated

probably deserved to win but

they were clearly missing uh mbappe i think they would have got a couple of the goals that griezman and

Rabio contrived to miss between them

if he'd been on the pitch.

But

I think they'll both be perfectly happy with the draw.

France haven't won any of the last six games in which Mbappe hasn't started.

I'm sure there are lots of

different reasons for that and different competitions, of course.

So, yeah, we didn't see Mbappe at all today.

Marcus Teram was in his place.

I mean, Philippe, any inside information?

I mean, it didn't look like he was going to get on at all, did it?

There was a little bit of uh kidology before the game when when the French medical team said that they were really happy with the way he'd been training with his uh tricolor mask with the little cockroll of the FFF.

And there was a debate whether he should be allowed to wear this or he would have to bear to wear another mask to play.

I think it was all kidology from the French.

And the way things are going, I think he will be again arrested.

They don't want to take any risk for that for the last game, which is against Poland.

Given the situation that Poland is in in that group, I think France is more or less through.

And there's absolutely no point in risking him aggravating

the no situation.

And there are, to be honest, there are loads of other possibilities.

And

he can carry on with Marcus Turam,

who is, he's a strange thing, Marcus Turam, is another of those French forwards who don't score

it doesn't mean he has had a bad game

because in fact he's been he's done a lot of very good things during the game but he's a bit he's more givache than beppe you know in terms of goal scoring i mean his record is actually quite poor because he has to sacrifice himself all the time in this kind of uh configuration and i think you know it will be a chance for deschamps to you know perhaps give comon um because the command um a start start rather than keep Usman Dembele and so forth, shuffle the pack a little bit.

And also, it's a way for him to look at a midfield three with Tramini and Golo-Cante as well as part of it.

And Rabio, of course.

So

I think we're set for the same.

And to be honest, there's nothing that I've heard from the French camp that suggests that Bapé is going to come in for the next game.

So on to Poland versus Austria.

Poland one, Austria three.

And Barry, you were on the minute by minute on this one.

Did you enjoy it?

I did, insofar as you can ever enjoy doing a minute-by-minute in which Poland featured because the spelling of their players' names is very difficult when you're trying to type quickly.

And there's more Zeds than you get in a good night's sleep.

But

apart from that, I thoroughly enjoyed the game.

It was really good.

Hugely impressed by Austria.

I mean, I was hugely impressed by them in their defeat at the hands of France, but they were were really good here.

They absolutely roared out of the traps.

And it's something I often wonder, you know, why more teams don't do that.

Just go helter-skelter from the first whistle.

And Poland were almost overwhelmed.

They just could not handle them for the first 15 minutes.

And I think this is a game Garrett Soke could learn a lot from, if I'm honest.

The Austrians are a really good team.

They've got midfielders who complement each other.

Every substitution he made, Ral Franik made, influenced the game.

And

when they went ahead, they didn't try and sit back and try to defend their lead.

They tried to get a second goal.

Now, obviously, that didn't work, and Poland got a foothold in the game and equalised.

But in the end, it was quite a comfortable win for Austria.

And interestingly enough, in the last sort of 10 minutes, when it was kitchen sink time for Poland, it was Austria who were playing like the team who needed to score two goals and they almost got them as well.

So I was very, very impressed with them, like really impressed.

And it got me to thinking that

maybe Ralph Ranyak wasn't a problem during that spell at Manchester United.

Ralph specks Ranyak.

He's come up trumps, hasn't he?

I mean, it there's been a few, hasn't there, Philippe, teams this this tournament that actually have just gone, screw this, we're gonna we're gonna have some fun and they they seem to be top of the list.

And I think that courage and bravery have been rewarded so far.

And rewarded, if not by, because you could say that Slovakia in a way as well, even against Poland, because they also, you know, jumped out of the tracks that we've seen.

You know, Ukraine came back.

But

there was a reward for bravery.

I was going to say we saw the absolute antithesis of what England gave us, basically.

But I think we're going to say this quite a few times, aren't we?

With Austria, with Ukraine, with Poland, with everybody, basically,

anybody but England.

And yes, it's been a theme.

And we were talking before the podcast with just chatting.

And I was wondering when is the last time there's been a Euro of such high standard?

And certainly not 2020, 2021, which was bizarre, as Wilson said, because there were no crowds.

And it was all, you know, it was not a proper tournament.

2016 was absolutely horrible.

2012 2012 was not particularly nice this is really different and it's actually a a tournament where you feel that yes indeed bravery and enterprise are being rewarded managers who actually think actually let's go for it but go for it in a in in in that incredibly energetic fashion that we've seen um and and and they get what they deserve which is the support of the public.

I mean, you can hear actually the atmosphere of the stadiums has been fantastic.

And a part of the reason for that, apart again from the England team, is the fact that what is being proposed on the pitch has been really, I mean, it's been absolutely marvelous, thoroughly enjoyable.

And I have to say, like, Barry, I'm in admiration of what Rangling has been doing with Austria, because if you were to think about the individualities, obviously they're all very fine players.

Obviously, they're internationals.

But were we expecting Christopher Baumgartner?

I know people have been raving about him, but to boss a game like he's been doing it.

Sabitzer is the Sabbit Sir that, again, was it the problem at Manchester United?

Perhaps not.

And if it hadn't been, by the way, for Chesney,

it would have been what, five, six, one, something like that.

I mean, absolutely.

I mean, the kind of performance that honestly has you enthusing from your seat and being almost jealous.

Rooting for them almost.

Absolutely rooting for them because, you know, you really wish them well.

And the one thing I would say is that it kind of comforts me, perhaps, in what the French team can do, because the French team looked sometimes ill at ease against this Austrian team in the second half, in particular.

But my goodness, it's because simply because Austria are genuinely as exciting as our Austrian friends were saying before the tournament they would be.

I'd quite like to see the England team take in some Red Bull somehow, because it seems to work for this Austria side.

I think the only England player I can think of that's famously ever been fuelled by Red Bull was Jamie Vardy, who's sadly not in the squad anymore.

But

I think they're on the pickle juice now, aren't they?

They're on the pickle juice.

I think actually that the Red Bull style,

for want of a less cliched phrase, might lend itself better to tournament international football than club football, perhaps.

Clearly, it's been incredibly successful in Austria, where Salzburg win the league title every year, and also in Germany with RB Leipzig.

But I kind of think that when you have this core group of players that have played played so much football together, in particular Sabitzer, Leimer, Baumgartner, Grillich in midfield, and you can see the way that they interact with each other on the pitch tied to this high-octane, high-intensity style play that a lot of international managers almost avoid because

many of them don't believe that you can coach a really well-drilled press in the time that you have on the training pitch at international level, and or they think that perhaps physically the players don't have it in them at the end of a long season in order to play like that.

But I think if you can do it well, it genuinely does freak opposition teams out because they're not used to facing it at this level.

So for sure, they've been one of the many teams that I think as neutrals we've watched over the last week and just, you know, really, really enjoyed watching.

It's basically a shame that England have had to play in this tournament because almost every other game has been genuinely joyous.

And one other player I want to mention, he probably didn't impact the game as much as Poland would have needed him to, but Zielinski is a fun player to watch, isn't he?

And you get these guys in every single game that you watch at the moment at the euros and yeah it's pretty joyous isn't it even poland because they they have the reputation of being quite a stodgy cumbersome team but they actually proposed a lot they gave an awful lot to that game and even they i mean even the beaten teams are proposing something but i mean ali when you're saying because what you is very counterintuitive in a way because That's exactly what people say you can't do with a national team.

You can't teach them how to press.

You can't teach them how to work as a unit in that kind of way.

But apparently, what you're telling us, it's possible.

It can be done.

Yes, but this is done on a national level, essentially, in Austria, isn't it?

They have really focused on this style of play with people like Ranyak, coaches like Ranyak, and developers like Ranyak at the heart of it.

And as mentioned, you know, so many of their players have just been brought up to play that exact style of play.

So we are still clearly feeling something of an identity crisis in the English game.

I suppose in terms terms of national identity and sort of youth level development, Spain springs to mind as the major European nation who would be able to point to a style of play that broadly all of them are incredibly comfortable with that that seems to translate pretty well at international level as well.

But I think it is difficult for other nations who maybe have a more disparate pool of players that come from different clubs and are trained in different ways when they're younger and haven't played as much football with each other as well.

It would be remiss of me, especially as Max isn't here, to not have a nod to the big man summer we're having.

Marko Ana Nautowic with a penalty.

Yeah, aged 35 years and 63 days, he becomes the second oldest goal scorer for Austria at a major tournament.

Barry, from a Poland perspective, obviously the camera kept looking, glancing at Robert Lewandowski, only fits to be on the bench, did come on.

And he kind of took on that Harry Kane role of when, when, or when is something going to go right for me in this national team?

Yeah, he seemed to have more of an influence in the game when he was on the bench, actually, because at one point the camera cut to him.

He was deep in conversation with the manager, and he had his hand over his mouth in the traditional football style, and they were pouring over an iPad or something.

And the manager made a change, some sort of switch.

I'm not sure what exactly it was he did.

And it was at that point that Poland sort of got a foothold in the game, having been overwhelmed for most of half the first half.

And when he came on, you know, there wasn't a huge amount he could do.

One cross came in.

I mean, Poland, a lot of Poland's game is all about getting crosses into the box.

And

I think there was only one or maybe two decent ones that came his way, but they were a little too high or a little too wayward.

So he wasn't able to get in the end of them.

But Poland were they weren't terrible.

Zelensky, as Ali says, was fun to watch.

He tried a few long-range efforts that weren't too far away or that forced Patrick Pence, the Austrian keeper, to make saves.

So yeah, the penalty scored well by Arnautovich.

Thoughts, Philippe.

I was sitting with Danny Murphy, of all people, and he wasn't happy about the decision, I've got to say.

Did you notice Czesny's reaction?

He didn't complain.

Didn't complain at all?

No.

He actually apologised to Sabica.

He came to him well maybe he smiled at him and he said something terrible that we couldn't understand and didn't hear but he there was no remonstration as well the um the var decision was explained very very quickly which was lovely we heard it i don't know what to say about this anymore because every single player who goes around a keeper knows how to do this is that you you leave your trailing leg.

In this particular case, Chesney really committed himself and he was really telling Sabitsa, would you please mind hitting me so I give up a penalty?

And he did by hitting his head.

And again,

Chesney didn't remonstrate and the Polish team actually didn't really remonstrate either.

And Var had nothing to say.

So I would say, yeah, okay, it's a penalty.

I tell you what, the other thing is that I do think it was a penalty for the handball.

Because when...

When the referee says, no, his hands are close to his body.

Well, his hands actually stunning his body and his elbow is really quite high up and the ball hits him and it's not like 50 centimeters away.

But never mind, to be honest, I don't think this had a huge impact on the game because Austria were at that time already 2-1 up and they were having the better chances, and it seemed perfectly logical for them to finish 3-1.

Penalty, yes, okay.

Yeah, it was a penalty.

The referee gave it, so therefore, it was a penalty.

Yeah, yeah, good, good.

Yeah, two things there.

Number one, yep, again, this is something that Max raised.

Where is the shithauser he gone?

What is this gentlemanly conduct we're seeing?

What is going on here?

And if, um,

you know, that sort of acceptance and apology, if that happened to an England player, if someone did that on our watch, can you imagine the outrage?

There's no fight.

What's going on here?

Just wonder what the reaction would be in Poland to that.

But Ali, what do you think?

I think he might have been a bit stunned because he basically fouled in with his face, didn't he?

I don't imagine he, in his position, was able to see to what extent Sabits had trailed his leg and left it dangling or whether he just cleared him out or not.

I must admit, I didn't think this was particularly controversial.

So,

yeah, I think penalty was not an egregiously bad decision.

Just a bit of housekeeping, actually.

In yesterday's podcast, we were marveling at the fact that there hadn't been any penalties in the tournament yet.

And someone on Twitter, I would like to thank them for pointing out, reminded me of that Ryan Porteus assault on

LK Gundigan in the very first game, which gave Germany a penalty.

So, yeah, sorry about that, everyone.

Oh, actually, there was also the one that the Spain keeper saved, wasn't there?

Bloody.

Apologies, Barry.

Look, I think we're about to talk about.

There's been a lot of games.

I'm about to talk about the Slovakia-Ukraine game.

I think, and I that took place earlier this afternoon.

I've already forgotten all about it.

We will try and refresh your memory.

That will do for part one.

In part two, yes, we will talk about Slovakia against Ukraine in Group E.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Slovakia 1, Ukraine 2.

Let's get a word with Jonathan Wilson, who's there in Dusseldorf.

How was that for you, Jonathan?

It was good.

I thought it was a really good game.

I mean, I feel like I've seen a lot of Slovakia over the last 14 years and they've always been terrible.

I mean, they've got some good results, but they've been really bad to watch.

But this innovation, this tournament, they're really good to watch.

In the first half here, they look excellent.

And then

Ukraine,

they made a couple of changes.

The Empty coming on, I think, changed things.

The way they counted, probably just about deserved it in the second half.

And actually, as I'm speaking to you now, Ukraine was just down in front of their fans, doing the sort of high-standing thunderclap thing

but you see that relationship there

which is

obviously kind of hugely important to them

it seemed like Ukraine had almost a bit of a hangover at the start of the game from that really poor performance they had in their their first group game but then Slovakia scored and actually it looked like after the Ukrainian goal just the momentum totally switched

yeah I think that's probably fair I think it was probably both sides that Ukraine ukraine um

did have that hangover as you say but i think also it's the back you were playing with a huge amount of confidence after the belgium game uh i think

the uh seguepov made four changes and one of them with the goalkeeper and tell you trubin coming in for the lubin so the ben finger keeper for the gridkeeper yeah he made three really good saves before he conceded and you were sort of thinking this this could get pretty unpleasant for ukraine uh but as you say once they'd gone behind that seemed to almost settle them.

They had the chance in the first half where the I think Dubravka saved it.

It wasn't quite clear to me.

Very tiny fingertip save, yeah.

Yeah, from Timchuk, the right back.

And then the second half, the counter-attacks.

I mean, I say that.

Mudrick had been

not the player he is.

He'd been somebody who's a bit calmer when he gets in positions.

Maybe they could have equalised for half-time.

But his pace going forward was a huge thing.

And as I said, I think you mentioned when he came on, he's a big boke, but the touch for the goal was brilliant.

Because that cross,

it just seemed the wrong height.

It was too low to head, too high to sort of take in a stride.

But actually, I think probably the fact it came at him in sort of a normal person's chest height, his sort of belly button height, maybe that just sort of confused Debravka and he didn't quite come out with the conviction he would have done.

I know you can see DeBravka was furious as he bought to sort of poke past him.

But I thought that was a really good touch and a really good finish.

Yeah, it was quality goal.

Just finally, Jonathan, how do you see this group shaking up now?

Because obviously we've got Belgium-Romania tomorrow.

And apart from Belgium, everyone else is on three points.

So it's kind of set up

pretty excitingly.

Yeah, I mean, it could be all four teams on three points, which would be brilliant.

I guess both these two teams, Oslovaki and Ukraine, know that if they win their final game, that will definitely take them through.

We know that even if all three teams finish on six points, you know, that will be enough to get through as if they're third-place team because of the results from Reeps A and B.

So, I'm going to the Ukraine-Belgium game down in Stuttgart next week and actually really looking forward to that now.

That it'll be interesting to see how Belgium responds tomorrow.

But the fact that game is not just live, but very live, Belgium possibly sort of fighting to avoid humiliation, both teams with a good chance of going through.

I think that should be really good.

Absolutely.

Enjoy your schnitzel.

Any sauce?

Or does it just

have it as it comes?

I had a very good schnitzel here yesterday with a bit of cranberry.

I like that

the sauce provisienne you get sometimes.

Lovely stuff.

But I don't know what's traditional,

I must ask.

But I think basically the schnitzel has to be really hot.

That's the key.

It has to slightly hiss when you squeeze lemon onto it.

And hopefully that Austrian-style potato salad, I think that's what goes best in schnitzel.

Not chips, the Austrian potato salad.

And then something kind of quite sharp, a marinated cucumber or something like that, just to cut through the grease.

So that's what I'm hoping for tonight.

And Nick Miller from the Athletic, he's been been here for a while.

He claims he knows a place that this good schnitzel has a screen.

So fingers crossed.

Let's see if Nick delivers.

Thank you so much for your time, Jonathan.

Enjoy.

Cheers.

Thank you.

Jonathan Wilson there.

We will get an update as to whether the schnitzel lived up to expectation tomorrow on tomorrow's podcast.

Another fun game.

And as I said to Jonathan, Philippe, I mean, there were times when, especially after Slovakia took the lead, I thought Ukraine are cooked here because they just looked totally the start that Slovakia made in particular

yes but i kind of feared that but on the other hand i remember the first game which they lost 3-0 against romania

and i thought that the way people judge ukraine and we talked about it on the pod actually was a little bit harsh they had fallen to three absolutely amazing goals i mean one particularly amazing goal but the others were not too bad either but they fought to the very end and created a lot and so you get this feeling with this ukraine team which is exactly what they did in the qualifiers where very often they found themselves in difficult situations.

And somehow, because of their togetherness, because of what is inspiring them, they managed to find ways back into the game.

They did that in the qualifiers.

I think they were something like four times behind or six times behind in the qualifiers.

Four times they saved the point or they won the game.

And here, yes,

there was a change.

And I don't, the change was not really up to a tactical change or a particularly inspired substitution.

It was just

the cohesion of the group and the actual belief that they could do something, which brought them this remarkable success.

And I think as well, perhaps the fact that Slovakia, whom by the way, I've adored watching,

just a revelation for me.

They felt physically the impact of their first game, which was already very difficult against Belgium, even though they won it.

And then because of their ultra, ultra high-energy game and ultra-risky.

I mean, how high is that line?

It's crazy.

Honestly, when you're supposedly a more modest team, you're not supposed to take this amount of risk, but they do and it works for them.

And some and they freak you out because you don't know how you're going to get the ball out of your own 30 meters and you commit mistakes and they pounce on those, which of course makes them open to the long balls, which Ukraine tried time and time again with Mudric running in the channels and so forth.

And in the end, it paid up.

But it was just, I think, a cracking game between two excellent national teams, which defended their jersey with complete conviction and not a little bit of talent.

And for Ukraine, delighted in confirmation of their resilience and their generosity in what they give to their public.

It was absolutely superb.

Really loved it, I must say.

It is worth emphasizing once again what a remarkable, just everything they do,

considering the context.

I don't think that ever gets old.

We need to mention that.

So Slovakia took the lead, Ivan Schrantz, Schrantz with his second of the tournament.

Not great defending.

Ali Zenchenko not getting the wing mirrors out.

Yeah, I think on the list of qualities that you want your fullback to have, Zinchenko has many of them, but probably backstick defending isn't necessarily the obvious one.

I mean, I thought it was quite a sneaky

bit of throw-in innovation.

I don't know whether this was planned or not, but the Slovakian player that sort of ambled over to pick up the ball and looked like he was going to be taking the throw, then chucked it to his mate and absolutely sprinted in behind a defender who was just a beat too slow and ran into that space before hooking the cross in.

So, you know, I like to see things like that.

Another reference to England, but our set pieces have been incredibly blunt so far.

And you see things like that with that energy that we're not showing.

And you wonder whether, you know, whether we're just playing with our shackles on in a tournament where everyone else seems to be shackle-less.

But I mean, I think it's worth pointing out that so many of the games that we're watching have these huge swings of momentum.

And I think there's a few reasons for it.

A lot of it is psychological, tournament football.

I think game state dependent as well.

When a team has gone 1-0 up, invariably we've seen the other team, you know, almost as if they've had smelling salts come back into the game.

And a lot of teams trying to defend that lead, even if there's a long time left in the game.

And invariably, if the equalizer goes in, the team that went ahead then sort of refines their confidence.

So, it's quite natural, I think, what we're seeing.

But what's interesting, I find, is that when you watch a game, I think we have this sort of anchoring bias where whoever starts the game better, Slovakia in this case, we all think they are the better team.

And quite often, during 90 minutes, there are so many different swings that actually, if you look back at the end of the game, it's been maybe more even than you thought.

I think the main difference for me here was the quality of passing from Ukraine, particularly their centre-backs.

In the first half, it was slow and imprecise, and in the second half, it was the opposite of that.

And in particular, Zabanyi started playing a lot better on the ball a lot quicker.

And the winning goal, you know, the focus is on the most beautiful touch and finish from Jeremchuk, the striker.

But it was a brilliant punched pass from Zabanyi into the midfielder, and then a sensational ball over the top from him, Shaparenko, it was, into Jeremchuk to finish it.

So that was just five bits, you know, five touches basically of pure quality that won the game.

And

that's what I love.

But in terms of Slovakia,

I just like how, you know, Philippe's talked about their style of play, which is, you know, it's a surprise.

It's not what you're necessarily expecting to see.

And they just have this Napoli influence, don't they?

Because you've got Francesco Calzona, the manager who was Maurizio Sari's assistant manager.

And there is something of the Sari ball in the way that, you know, the expansiveness of their build-up play.

You've got Marek Hamschik next to him on the bench, who is their all-time appearance holder, Slovakia's and Napolis.

And then their most important player, Lobotka, who probably plays the most important role for them in terms of the style of play at the base midfield, who's a Napoli player and was in the Serie A team of the season when they won the league last year.

So they have been a joy to learn about and a joy to watch.

But Ukraine, for that second half turnaround, I think it's great to have them on three points as well.

I mean, both of their goals were very easy on the eye.

Barry and Shaparenko's first was really well taken.

But then after that, I mean, Joey says, how big are Yeremchuk's feet?

That touch was exquisite.

I'm not sure if like Saitcho Bob with his massive shoes could have thought that down.

It was absolutely sensational, wasn't it?

Yeah, well, he had this

long chaparrenko ball from deep dropping over his shoulder.

So he's looking over his shoulder.

sticks out it the touch and the way he took it down reminded me a bit of jared bowen he's he's a master at that but it i don't think you can emphasize how difficult a skill it is to do it then almost in the same movement poked it past debravka who i have to say made it very easy for him well didn't make it easy for him made it easier for him because debravka we've seen him dither a lot you know, not knowing whether to come stick or twist when he's playing for Newcastle.

And he did the same here.

And then I think he sort of ducked out of the chart.

He thought he was going to get hit.

And he didn't want to get hit.

And he made himself, you know, I think visibly shifted out of the way and made it a difficult task, a lot easier for Yarimchuk to score that winner.

It was a slight, just a slight touch of the Matt Hancock, that photo of him looking like he's scared of a ball dropping down.

No, I know what you mean.

He looked a little bit foolish there.

But it does mean Group E is beautifully set up.

So three teams on three points.

Belgian bottom on zero and they play Romania tomorrow.

So although, yeah, a Romania sort of result would be, you know, for the underdog would be great.

If we go into the final round with all those teams on three points, woof.

This is the thing I'm most excited about in the tournament.

I think football nerds everywhere are watching that game tomorrow, praying for a Belgian win, because you don't often get a 3-3-3-3 point spread after two rounds of games.

And as Michael Cox pointed out to me on Twitter, if the final group games were to be drawn from a 3-3-3-3 point spread, then a team would finish fourth and be eliminated from the competition with four points, which would likely be more points than a team that would go through in the third-place batch of teams, which doesn't seem ideal, but would be a hell of a quirk.

A listener sent me an email pointing out that he's fairly certain Scotland can qualify with two points if they draw with Hungary.

But what they need to happen then is for England to beat Slovenia by three goals.

Sean McNulty is the listener, by the way.

Thank you, Sean, for this.

I hope you're right.

If England beats Slovenia by three goals,

Scotland draw with Hungary, Spain beat Albania, Italy beat Croatia, France beat Poland, and the Netherlands beat Austria, Scotland can advance to the last 16 with two points.

That would be sensational.

But they deserve a trophy, I think, for that.

If they get through on two points, what may well happen is that everything will happen except Scotland drawing with Hungary.

They'll lose.

I mean, that's probably most Scotland outcome, isn't it?

If we think about it.

That the Roman Empire for this sort of thing was a, and I was reminded this by Omar Chowdhury from 21st Group.

In the Europa League in 2022-23, there was a group with Feyernod, Micheland, Lazio, and Sturm Graz in it.

And each team won two, drew two, and lost to.

All four teams finished with eight points.

Wow.

Well, yeah, on a personal point of view, I'm very happy to be going home before the last round of group games, so I don't have to worry about that under pressure on a live game.

But yeah, that's just me.

That'll do for part two.

In part three, we'll preview Saturday's games and do any other business.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So Saturday's games, two o'clock Georgia against Czech Republic.

Philippe, with these two, again, like we were talking about the theme, defeats, but promising defeats, weren't they kind of for both?

So especially Georgia?

I think especially Georgia and the scoreline, which didn't indicate really what happened in the game.

Probably still the game of the tournament at the moment.

And

okay, it's a 3-1, that was a 2-1.

The last score doesn't count.

They had a number of chances as well.

And the football they proposed was,

I think, in keeping with what...

the Romantics would like Georgian football to be like, remembering the great BDC sides, you know, a long time ago, or the King Kladzes of

this world.

And it's a team that is in keeping with that amazing spirit.

And

I'm perhaps less convinced by the Czech Republic than you are.

Romantic would say

Georgia, of course.

But I fear that their generosity, which is exceptional, and generosity, which we have said has been rewarded for all the team in this tournament, might actually come

against the Czechs.

We should say good morning to Guram Kashya if he is listening and best of luck, Skipper.

After that, Turkey against Portugal, Barry, again, that looks like a fun fixture.

Yeah,

the Portugal game is the only one I haven't seen, but I know they won with a late winner.

I expect them to win the tournament,

but I was impressed with Turkey as well.

So I'm just looking forward to a good game.

It's a tough one to call.

And Belgium, Romania, we've kind of touched up on that one, Ali, but oh, pressure on Belgium here.

Massive pressure.

For sure, for sure.

You don't want to be the larger footballing nation that starts with, well, a defeat where the finishing was just so poor, the ridiculousness of the various decisions that went against them, and that, you know, they have to put it right.

And then you come up against a Romania team that you've seen score some ridiculous goals, play this.

as so many other teams have, you know, quite ambitious at times, start a football, break with speed with this group of players, so many of whom were part of a very good under-21s team and therefore know each other's games back, you know, back to front.

It's a really, really tough fixture for Belgium.

And yet, I'm sort of minded to say that it's unlikely that they miss the chances to the extent that they did in the previous game.

And that if they play similarly, I still think that their dominance should come through.

And we will get the lesser spotted three points, three points, three points, three points that we're all looking for.

That might be wishful thinking because

I've talked to a number of Belgian friends and I have lots of friends in Belgium.

I used to live there and all of them are, the technical expression is shit scared.

They're all absolutely convinced that it won't be a good day for Belgium.

The first performance was god-awful.

absolutely god-awful.

And everybody's looking at TEDSCO thinking, you know, you got it completely wrong in the first game.

Are you going to take the right decisions this time in terms of the lineup lineup you're going to

select?

And the fact that you remember, I mean, they basically had a team which is supposed to be a team of attacking talents.

And very often, there were two Belgians against seven Slovakians in the box.

I mean, there's absolutely no chance.

There was nothing.

Everything was revolving around Kevin de Bruyne, who can't do everything on his own.

So in Belgium,

the mood is not despondent.

The mood is really, really, yes.

People are not very confident, shall we put it, in a more more elegant way i i think romania will beat them really

yeah

big time you're pretty good for a bold prediction barry aren't you they've come off a few times my moments you don't hear we don't tend to dwell on the ones i get wrong but yeah

i do think romania will beat them well we've mentioned england quite a lot and uh their qualities or lack thereof during this podcast chris on x uh has said uh thank you for your service by the way chris i've just listened back to the euro 2020 england versus Scotland pod.

Can confirm it sounded exactly like last night.

Kane, lumbering and surprised he actually got taken off.

Barry, ecstatic at how crap they are and how lucky they were not to lose.

But the clamour was for Calvert Lewin.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Barry, you were keen to talk a little bit more about England, unsurprisingly, because you felt some of the post-match interviews added to the hilarity.

Well, Kyle Walker gave an interview, and it seemed the game he'd played in was nothing like the game we'd watched.

Now, I appreciate as a player, it's his job to talk up the positives, but there weren't really any positives beyond the fact that England actually got a result, and that is a huge positive.

They didn't lose, but um,

it's it's two games in a row now that they've played badly in, and there are signs of narciness among the players.

So, I wonder that the next game against Slovenia

could be interesting.

Some of the criticism of them has been quite brutal from quarters you wouldn't expect.

And even I'm thinking maybe it's a little bit over the top because they didn't actually lose the game.

And I do think they will raise their game against superior opposition if they get to meet the vastly superior opportunity or a big-name team.

But yeah, I'd be interested to know what Ali made of it.

Well, specific to the Kyle Walker interview, interview, I instinctively thought of, and apologies for the cross-sport reference, of Basbull and the Ashes last summer, where England started really poorly and the criticism was pretty fierce.

And almost as if the players and the coaching staff had been or had pre-agreed some sort of comm strategy, they all came out.

incredibly bullish, as you say, Barry, almost talking as if what had actually happened hadn't happened the way we'd all seen it.

And that's for their own sake, really, isn't it?

That's for their own belief.

That's for their own team spirit in the dressing room.

So while

it doesn't leave a great taste in the mouth of a fan when you hear it like that, I kind of understand why they take that approach.

And I do think it is somewhat targeted.

And we should remember that England came roaring back in the ashes, fueled by that.

crazy self-belief which a lot of the fans didn't necessarily have in the team so i i did think that that interview was was interesting i would love to see what happens if england inexplicably turn it on against both slovenia and potentially in the round of 16 and win comfortably it would be so interesting to hear you know what the response is what the reaction is and and how the fans and the media feel about it because broadly what has happened in the first two games has been not that dissimilar to what people expected to happen On our England pod, in the pre-tournament predictions that we did,

I said I thought we'd get seven points with a draw against Denmark and victories against the other two teams.

In the pre-match, the Denmark preview that we did.

Two of the guys predicted a one-all draw, and yet it happens.

And we somewhat lost our heads on the reaction pod last night.

So it's kind of part of the theatre of it, I think.

And that's not to dismiss the very fair criticisms.

The lack of energy is, for me, as concerning as Southgate's great tactical mistakes.

It's the players' lack of energy, both physical, but then also the lack of clarity that they seem to be playing with on a psychological level, that is just as concerning for me as any issues with the left back or with Foden or with midfield balance.

I also wonder what Garrett Southgate came out and said, Oh, we've no natural replacement for Calvin Phillips.

I'd love to know.

I'd love to know what Calvin Phillips makes of that.

Hold on, I'm not dead.

You know,

I I was available, but uh, yeah, that was odd because it, yeah, it's not in Probib and Adam Wharton as well.

Anyway, you know,

yeah, I think that was the thing.

I think the Carl Walker interview didn't surprise me.

That's just kind of towing the party line.

I don't think anyone needs to be upset about that.

But yeah, the Calvin Phillips comment is slightly concerning, I would say.

Right, that's enough of that, enough England chat, I think, for today.

Jordan has been in touch.

I've been a long time listener of the pod, and was going to send one of those deeply sincere thank you messages for helping me through a tough time due to Wales not making the Euros.

That was until the blasphemy and abhorrent descriptions of my beloved hometown, Barry Island.

I'd like it corrected that it is not a scary place, rather an all-welcoming holiday haven.

Maybe a summer tour here could change your minds.

Was that John Bruin?

I can't remember.

I mean, the only thing I know about Barry Island is it has the same name as me, and Mike Bobbins is from there, the Welsh comedian who I absolutely adore so I have no beef with Barry Island isn't it where um Gavin and Stacey is set that's right yeah yes they must get quite a lot of tourists there now but yeah okay I think they always got quite a lot of tourists to be fair but okay so

I'm making it worse aren't I no we have to put in a tour deck there

to appease the the residents of Barry Island he say goes on to say thankfully my mood had greatly improved today on the sacking of Robert Page I'm hoping we can get a celebratory Ellis James voice note that also references the outstanding contributions of Bale and the underappreciated talents of Ramsay to complete my Ellis James bingo call sheet.

If he's drunk and lost for words, I might even achieve a full house.

Now, I don't think he's drunk, but here is Ellis James's voice note on the dismissal of Rob Page.

Well, well, well, Rob Page has been sacked two years into his four-year contract, which he was given after we qualified for the World Cup in June 2022.

That seems like an awfully long time ago now.

A little bit of historical context.

We don't sack managers very often in Wales.

We haven't actually sacked a manager, certainly of the men's team, for 29 years.

1995 is the last time when we sacked Mike Smith, and he was replaced with Bobby Gould, which is great.

Looking forward for a return to the banter years.

But

I think I personally think it's the right decision.

I was uncomfortable actually with the demonization he got online.

And that was there was always a slight difference between the reactions to the results and the reactions to him online to in the ground.

The fans in the ground were have actually always been very, very

forgiving of, or certainly not vocal in their displeasure.

But then after failing to beat Gibraltar, ranked 203rd in the world.

And then losing 4-0 to Slovakia, that was the first time I heard fans chanting Page out, which I think would have been a big thing for the FAW.

My other problem with him was that he just wasn't improving.

You know, he took over in difficult circumstances, took over from Ryan Giggs, of course.

And then,

you know, if you look at Gary Speed, Gary Speed got off to a very bad start but improved greatly.

Coleman got off to a terrible start, but improved greatly.

Giggs got off to a bad start, but improved.

Whereas with Rob, he wasn't really getting better.

And I think, in fairness when you take a step back he was the manager when we got promoted from League B to League A in the Nations League which is a great achievement.

He was the manager who took us to our first World Cup since nineteen fifty eight which is an incredible achievement.

You know that has been a sort of festering wound in Welsh football for decades the fact that we keep failing to qualify for World Cups.

But the performances certainly since I mean in the World Cup were dreadful.

And then losing Armenia, failing to qualify for Euro twenty 2024.

The right to us on the wall really.

I don't know who they're going to replace him with.

The FAW apparently aren't in a hurry.

But still, either way,

I said I was uncomfortable with the demonization of him online because he played for his country 41 times, captained his country.

I never for one second felt that he didn't have complete commitment to the role.

And I think he loved the job.

But God, I just hope they get the next appointment right.

I mean, the next person has to work out how to play without bail and also probably Ramsay because, you know, he's now plagued by injuries.

Euro 2024 is incredibly bittersweet to watch because we should be there.

And I really, really need the FAW to get the next appointment right because, to be honest, I need a successful Welsh team for my peace of mind.

I guess two things can be true, can't they?

That he probably did quite a good job, you know, got them to the first World Cup in 1958, reached the round of 16 at Euro 2020.

It seemed like the tipping point was those two friendlies, and it seemed pretty mutinous.

I think that seemed to be why the FAW has

acted.

I think the writing was very much on the wall from even before those two friendlies and the disastrous draw against Gibraltar, probably sealed his fate.

Then they got hockey by Slovakia and that the fans had turned on him.

He knew the jig was up, I think.

And I would have been as astonished if he'd kept the job.

It'd be interesting to see who gets it now.

I just hope it doesn't take them as long to replace him as it's taken the Republic of Ireland to find a new manager.

We're we're well into I think about 130 days or more now since John O'Shea continues to be the caretaker manager of Ireland without getting the job permanently and if I was him I'd tell the FAI to shove it up their arse to be honest but yeah he's they're really taking advantage of his goodwill.

If you really wanted to be you know, have a proper tribute to the shouldn't it be shoving it up your bollocks?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I actually met Mick McCarthy's son

the other night.

Lovely fella, Michael Jr.

He's uh he drinks in my local pub occasionally, uh but very very nice fella and chip off the old block.

He he looks like his dad, but has a big beard.

Does he have a Yorkshire accent like his dad or not?

No, No, no, he doesn't.

No, I don't think he grew up in a pit.

Oh, God.

Oh, another apology coming.

Finally, George says, with the French poor in front of gold, the Dutch unlucky, the Austrians looking like world beaters, how good was that Oxford win at Wembley?

We're championship, George.

Not Ellic, by the way.

Thank you very much.

That'll do for today.

Thank you, Philippe.

Thank you very much, Robert.

Thank you, Ali.

Cheers, guys.

And thank you, Barry.

Thank you.

Football Weekly is produced by Silas Gray, and our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

This is The Guardian.