Portugal leave it late and the future of football governance with Sir Keir Starmer – Football Daily

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Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly game of the tournament so far in Dortmund as Turkey and Georgia just went from it from the off until the last minute of injury time.

Mohamed, actor Cogli, racing clear to seal the win as the Georgian keeper forlornly sprinted back.

Just what you want to see.

Brilliant goals, brilliant performances from both sides.

Thanks to all of them for doing that.

Meanwhile, Portugal leave it very late against Chechia.

The Czechs had soaked up hours of pressure before taking the lead, but a soft-owned goal got Roberto Martinez's side back into it.

And then two late subs, Neto and Conce Chao, combined to win it.

We'll look ahead to tomorrow's game, including whether Scotland have to win or have...

have to not lose.

And part three today is an interview Barry and I did with the Labour leader at Sakir Starma yesterday.

We talk about the regulator, nation-state ownership, Manchester City's legal claims against the Premier League, and the impact of kickoff times on matchgoing fans.

All that plus your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Mark Langdon from the Racing Post.

Welcome.

Hi, Max.

Jonathan Vaduba, welcome.

Hello, Max.

So then, Turkey 3, Georgia 1.

Mark, you said in the WhatsApp group, there's always the Premier League fixtures if we struggle to get 20 minutes out of this game, but we might need longer.

One absolutely brilliant game of football.

Oh, it's crazy, Max.

I've got, I started making some notes on the game, and then I've given up because I was just sort of writing down events.

And then I've just like, there's too much.

I just hope I can remember sort of even half of what went on.

The most enjoyable game.

seen so far and by some distance now it had absolutely um everything really in in terms of two teams that went at each other, played in a frantic and frenzied atmosphere in a wonderful stadium.

The weather with the pouring down the rain just seemed to help the game sort of tick along at the pace.

And while Turkey won and deserved to win, I would also like to shout out Georgia because that sort of backdoor.

entry into the European Championship via the lowest nations league group.

I think that could go one of two ways.

You could get a minnow that kind of stinks the place out.

And then you get conversations about do we want to go up to 24 teams what are we doing allowing a side like this into the european championship instead um it was you know that they were a joy the match was a joy and i think 3-1 turkey was maybe something like 3-2 or 4-3 would have been even more um kind of fitting for for a game that seemed to have absolutely everything Yeah, but I mean, that's the thing, isn't it?

You always support the underdog, I guess, or at least I do, Jonathan.

And so there will be games where I'm supporting Turkey, but I was definitely willing Georgia to to get that equaliser.

I don't know whether to go through the game chronologically, but I just want to start at the end.

Like the last minute, there's nothing better than a keeper going up and something happening.

Either he scores or he's got a sprint back.

It was just such a brilliant end to this game.

Yeah, it was a brilliant end to the match.

Brilliant middle, brilliant beginning.

I think the whole match was fantastic.

I agree with Mark, probably the best game of the tournament so far

from a sort of neutral spectacle point of view.

Even the technical quality as well, I thought Georgia, just the technical quality, they're not the best of teams, teams, but on the ball, everyone's really tidy.

I found it quite an interesting.

Shaq Vitadze was one of the best players on the pitch.

And I don't know if anyone saw the first game, Germany, Scotland, where Graham Sunes came out and said, well, Watford players are...

It sums it all up when a Watford player is playing against by a Munich player.

Well, Shaq Vitadze, I think, had a bit of a ripos to that today because he was outstanding.

The midfield three as well, I mean, Kotrashvili as well.

Mech.

Vabishvili was also really, really good in there.

Karach Kelly, of course, everyone knows.

I didn't think he was quite as effective.

but just going forward for a team that's lost 3-1 the amount of energy and effort and skill and technical ability they put into the game was was really impressive yeah like you said the breakaway at the end it's always great when the keeper's out and uh and you know the the break from the corner and that's just a classic kind of euros thing isn't it reminds me of grosso back in the days uh that that that classic counter-attack in the of the germany italy game uh many many years ago but um i think Actually, that might come back and haunt Georgia, that one goal.

And I think it was a little bit...

I would question the value of throwing a keeper up there like last minute as if it was the last game of the, you know, the quarterfinal, like it was the quarterfinal last minute or something.

Because Georgia played well enough to show that they can challenge pretty much every team in this group.

And the question is, can they get enough points?

And could it even come down to goal difference?

Even if they were to finish third in the group, would it potentially maybe come down to the league table?

So that goal could actually cost them.

But all in all, I really, like you said, you admire their efforts for the first ever appearance as well, the effort they put into it.

But also, Max, you've got to say, this game had two of the best goals of the tournament, right?

I mean, we haven't even spoken about the two of the goals.

And I really enjoyed Mikhail Tadzi's goal as well.

I mean, for me, Mikhail Tadzi put pretty much one of the best central sort of all-round centre-forward performances of the tournament so far.

I thought he was outstanding.

So for Georgia to be on the losing side is really, really gutting for them.

But yeah, quality game.

I did think actually about, you know, because we've talked so much about Karat Shalia and I just thought it would be him and then just some big lumps.

And actually quite a lot of the players were a bit like Farret Shaley.

You know, you just think Power League in Georgia must be impossible.

These little sort of buzzy players who are just really technically good.

But you mentioned it and the goals and

the winning goal, I guess, the second goal, Mark, from Arda Gula, right, is it was my first involuntary noise of the tournament when that went in.

Well, you've done well to get past Mulder's goal without making an involuntary noise because I think I think I made that sort of same noise and I always remember it back to the first time I think I ever did that noise was when Zidan scored the Champions League goal against Levakuz and

I'm pretty sure that I made the same noise for both of those two goals that we saw from Turkey and we have praised Georgia a lot but you know the Turkish fans will probably be screaming at us for saying you know this team was

you know

sort of a laughing stock at the last European Championship because they were hyped up as the dark horses didn't show up at all, didn't play their football.

They've played a great game, scored some amazing goals.

And Goulair, I mean, he plays for Real Madrid, so there's clearly talent there.

He got injured right at the start of the season, so unfortunately, he wasn't able to play much of a part for Madrid this season.

He came into the team late on in La Liga, started to score goals.

Spanish reporters were talking him up as somebody that might be able to make an impact next season for Real Madrid.

I mean, he's got it all on to do there with players of all the people.

Competition places are exactly.

But he showed he was sort of worthy's sort of place

in the team.

It is a great goal.

I love the way that he,

I mean, he's up against a very good goalkeeper, as was already seen with some of the saves that were made.

And to bend it sort of that far outside the post and to get it sort of back into the top corner.

Not sure how many revs there were on that one.

Was it four?

Yeah, very impressive.

The key is nought.

What we want is nought revs.

That is the ultimate strike of a football, isn't it?

But I suppose if you're bending it, then I suppose

you do need some revs, right?

right?

Yeah,

Nor would be very difficult if you were trying to curl one in.

So yeah, I thought all the Turkish players that kind of came in with reputations, Goulet being one, Yildiz, who sort of was marginally offside,

another one that's playing his club football at a high level and a lot's expected.

And then I also felt Kadiolu, the left back, was a player that I didn't know sort of anything about really.

I was sort of Wikipedia him during the match.

I mean, I thought he was an absolute delight at left back.

I mean, the way that modern football is now, for him to be able to play left back just wouldn't have been a thing a few years ago.

Feels like a winger, so creative, slight,

sort of had a bit of the bright heels about him,

the way that he looks.

And yet, I absolutely loved these performance.

I love both teams, but Turkey did deserve to win.

And, you know, I'm hoping that they kind of don't sort of change their style now.

This is the template for what I want from them going forward.

A crazy game.

36 shots in the match.

Yeah, long may it continue from Turkey's point of view.

Yeah.

Sort of the turkey that we've been expecting to see for about 20 years.

Every tournament we go, this is the turkey we'll get.

Yeah, he's only 19, Ardegura.

So I'm looking forward to Dan Snow's tweet of, you know, people who've done amazing things by 19 and perhaps Barry.

We don't need to know what Barry was doing at 19 when we learned what he was doing at 20 yesterday.

And like the first goal as well, Jonathan, you're right.

Merton Mulder, that is such a brilliant finish, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean, it was for me the best goal of the tournament until Goulez strike.

I think Goulez maybe just edges it for me.

But yeah, the technical quality of it, and I know it's a bit kind of obvious when you say it, but the level of like international football is just so high in terms of the ability of every player.

Even the players who maybe aren't amazing, teams like Georgia, Turkey, that you might think, well, they're not going to be in it to win it.

But you see the technical ability of even like a right back to just boot it like that, top, you know, top bins.

It was a brilliant goal,

really well-executed strike.

I think Turkey, it's a bit like what Mark said just now, in the sense of, and you said it as well, Max, you always have, there's always an expectation around Turkey of like, oh, they might be a dark horse or they might have a next messy type thing.

And I've heard it so many times with Turkey, so you're always a bit wary about what to expect with them.

This was the first time where I sort of genuinely watched them and thought that they do have those kind of top young talents in the forward areas that they had up front.

Either side of obviously the striker, Yomaz Ovi Guler and Yildis.

Both of them were really like technical and really sort of exciting to watch dynamic.

You know, usually with Turkey, you expect kind of a sort of an experience, maybe slightly less entertaining, bit more turgid kind of style of play.

Just lots of soyonchus.

That's what I'm expecting.

Yeah.

Very committed, but not exactly filled with flair.

Whereas this team, it's got flair in abundance i mean as mark said cadioglu i thought was outstanding at left back muldo with the gold from right back brilliant strike chalanoglu as well just spraying passes and and that experience he brought i mean i i really enjoyed there was one moment i'm not sure if anyone caught it where they won a free kick and goulet just sort of went to Chalanoglu's as if to sort of he sort of gestured to him to say, can I take it?

And Chalanoglu just sort of shook his head just dismissively, like no chance, you know.

And Goulet's goal actually came after that and made me think, you know, he thought, all right, I'm I'm going to hit this one.

And there was a little bit of an interesting dynamic there because Goulet is obviously the big talent at Real Madrid and kind of the next big thing, whereas Chananoglu is the sort of main man and captain.

So there was that interesting dynamic between those two players, but both of them are exceptional players.

So it was

a really entertaining and sort of dynamic, energetic turkey side, which I haven't really seen that much in

previous tournaments where people tend to sort of maybe name on the dark horse.

So they finally sort of lived up to their billing a little bit, which was exciting to see.

It's only game one, of course, but yeah, really good performance from them.

There was a moment where I think it was just for half-time when a Turkey player, I forget who it was, just the ball just came out to him.

I reckon he was just in the centre circle, I'm not sure, and he just went and waited a strike.

That was Cadiolu, that was, yeah.

Was it gonna, yeah, and I was just like, this is it, it's it's 5:40 on a Tuesday afternoon, you know, in June.

This is exactly what I want from the European Championships.

Like that moment in this ridiculous game, and actually, like the atmosphere, obviously, right, Germany is just, is, is, there's so many Turkish people who live in Germany, right?

And so, and Georgia brought a lot because it's their first ever game.

The atmosphere sounded absolutely amazing.

Yeah, and I spoke to a friend who's in Dortmund and went to that game.

So, I spoke to him this morning, and he said it was already, you know, building and and the kind you couldn't really move for just Turkish supporters absolutely everywhere.

And yeah, they certainly brought a lot to the tournament.

And I know it's been referenced already previously, but having a tournament in kind of a traditional football country that's very easy for

a lot of these competing nations supporters to come to

in stadiums that are kind of historic and

football ready.

And it really does add to the tournament.

sort of forgotten what that feels like with the you know the russia tournament um the covid one and then also the one in qatar so i think i think that is helping a lot of the matches so far Been a lot of first half goals as well, which definitely means that teams have got to come out and play.

But the fans are definitely making an impact, I think, in this tournament.

And actually,

I mean, there haven't been that many bad games, Jonathan, have there?

I mean, I just

feel like

a lot of the inverted comers lesser sides...

you know, like you said, they're good, right?

And so even though they haven't, well, only Belgium of the big sort of favoured sides have lost, it doesn't feel like, and I mean,

who's run away with the game?

Germany.

I don't think Spain batted Croatia, and that's actually two sides at the top table.

It feels like it feels like quite a tight tournament.

Yeah, it does.

And in fairness, I sort of questioned, and I think a lot of people have questioned

the move to sort of more teams in the tournament and the ability for third-place teams to qualify,

how that affects the dynamic of the competition.

I'm not a massive fan of it personally, to be honest, but I think one of the things that it does maybe give is that maybe slightly more sense of freedom because you know that even if you lose the first game you know you've still got the ability to go through with just one win i mean take for example scotland absolutely battered by germany that in a in a sort of two teams qualified tournament that you're nearly out right but now they know that kind of they're still in it essentially and georgia will feel the same you know they've lost this game but they still know one win could maybe qualify them um out of the three so it's it's maybe slightly easier to qualify but maybe that adds to the sense of adventure because teams can then know that okay it's not the end of the world if you sort of if you lose that first match, and that maybe adds a bit more jeopardy and risk to teams and players.

So, I think from that point of view, you could argue that, yeah, maybe the tournament structure is giving people that feeling of more freedom, or maybe we're just in a more of an attacking era in terms of football in general and

teams and managers wanting to coach attacking football.

I mean, you looked at sort of Montele as Turkey, you know, obviously he was a top striker in his day and a top forward in his day, and obviously,

he wants to play that enterprising style.

Sanyol, slightly more defense minded um bit like his playing career of course as a defender and and georgia is slightly more conservative but the what they're really good at is that that transitions and those counters and and put when the ball breaks down getting forward is what they're really good at so i think yeah that that it's added to that kind of sense of adventure i think to the tournament but i i don't know the reasons why but those are just two maybe suggestions as to why and uh you know a hat tip of course to guram kashir who played brilliantly and is the best player at the euros and that's not just because he's the only player that we know for certain listens to Football Weekly.

But look,

as I'm speaking to you now, Guram, like your team did yourself and your country incredibly proud.

I don't want to mean that in a patronising way.

I think you can get through.

I really think they could, you know, they could do something.

And it was a delight to watch them.

That'll do for part one.

Part two, we'll do Portugal versus Chechea.

Hi Pod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Yeah, it's their most portable paper tablet yet.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Let's bring in Johnny Lou, who has just

presumably Johnny, one of those annoying games where it all happened right at the end.

And so you just had to rip up everything you'd written.

You seem to have written it very quickly, considering the game only finished 10 minutes ago, and you're here talking to us.

Yeah, it was, it was what they call a deadline buster.

But I don't know, I've got the sense that there was going to be some late drama in this game.

Just because it was kind of so tense and taut the first 40 minutes Portugal were, I mean, they were trying lots of things, but not coming off.

And there was just a sense that when things clicked,

they were either going to go into overdrive or they were just going to lose the plot a little bit.

And as it turned out, both things happened.

So, you know, sometimes a late last minute goal comes out of nowhere and you, you you know it absolutely screws you over but i don't know i just had a weird because there were so many kind of alpha males out there you just got the sense that something something alpha was going to happen yeah i don't know if neto or conseu are alpha but i did mark i mean and danny murphy to be fair to him called himself out on it because a minute before he'd gone what is the point in bringing on substitutes with five minutes to go like give them some time and then suddenly like neto whips in conseu steals in and they win the game for portugal i thought sorry i just i just say I think you might have to check this.

I think Danny Murphy might be one of the most substituted players in Premier League history.

Is that right?

Okay, do you think he's sort of bitter about just substitutes in general?

Do you think he's got that?

I should message him and ask him.

I'll find out.

Anyway, Mark,

the goal, I mean, it's the, no, don't apologise.

It's the, it's, it was an important thing to bring to our Euro 2024 coverage.

Um, that was the goal that won it.

I mean, I don't have a question.

Well, I mean, I tended to agree with the sort of UK commentary there and that, you know, Danny Murphy was right and that the substitutions did come really late.

And the fact that they ended up impacting the winning goal, I still don't think actually changes the feeling that Portugal at that time could have done with some fresh legs and somebody to run in behind.

Because when they took Rafael Leal off,

albeit that he'd been ineffective for sort of the last 20-30 minutes of his appearance, they didn't have anybody running beyond the ball.

Everything was,

you know, Ronaldo wanted to come in towards to get the ball.

Bernardo Silva, Bruno Fernandes were all doing kind of the same thing.

And if it was going to be a goal, it was going to be a cross-in to Ronaldo.

But they didn't look like they had kind of that ability to go around the outside too often

to kind of break down the checks.

And you've got all these wingers that could have come on.

And in the end, it was the two that combined.

And, you know, I would like to see probably more of Neto.

He showed in that very sort of fleeting appearance that he definitely could make an impact off the bench.

And Conseil Sao, it's a nice story for him as well because it wasn't that long ago.

He was considered an absolute flop when he went to Ajax, didn't work out for him, found himself behind Anthony in the team,

which he'll probably be wound up about.

But then, even when Anthony left, it was Kudos in front of him on that right-hand side.

So, he had to go back to Porto to prove himself.

He's got himself into the Euro squad, and you saw how much it meant to him when he scored that goal and whipped off his shirt.

Donnie Murphy is has joined 94th in the table of most substituted, along with Harvey Barnes, Oscar, David Dunn, Stephen Ireland, John Obi-McKellen, Stephen Peenard.

Do you want the top 10, Johnny?

No, I've wasted enough of your time.

British.

At 10, Raheem Sterling.

Danny Welbeck, Aaron Lennon, Adam Lalana, Song Hyun Min, Sergio Aguero, Juan Mata, David Silver, Willian, and Theo Walcott.

I mean, you're right.

Maybe it's a waste of time, but I found that quite interesting.

I mean, actually, more interesting than sort of the first 60 minutes of this game, Jonathan.

And it came to live, I thought, when Chechias scored.

And

even though they didn't deserve it, I really felt gutted for them by the end.

Yeah, I mean, it really was a great defensive display by them because I thought, you know,

it is, but people joke about this, but I did really think the first 45 minutes were quite tactically intriguing.

I mean, if you looked at the way, you know, Portugal was sort of shifting around and what Cancello was doing and what Bernardo Silva was doing and the way they were all basically trying not to get in Ronaldo's way while doing you know artistic things you know and basically hoping that Ronaldo would notice uh I thought that was quite interesting but it wasn't it wasn't obviously wasn't going anywhere they weren't producing anything apart from crosses there were a couple of night you know nice little flicks and and flourishes and some half chances and some good saves um but i you know i thought you know checkia i think check republic guardian house style is still check republic is that right i i i only discovered that tonight but they they defended really well uh i thought i thought um cray Chief was really good.

The defender was off to, I think he's off to Tirona in the summer.

And Stanek made some good saves.

And I thought basically they didn't quite have the game under control, but I think they deserved a point.

And obviously, what happens is they get up the field.

I think it's a goal pick, basically.

And then there's a cross from the right.

And Portugal are very slow to react.

And

I kind of wrote about this in my report.

This was basically right after Ronaldo had had his free kick and

you know he'd sort of g'd up the crowd and basically the whole the whole thing was turned the whole occasion was turning a shade of ronaldo and i think what that does to the rest of the the portugal players is they subconsciously take up slightly more peripheral roles they you know they kind of lose their focus a little and they were they were just so slow to um to react to to that that second ball and and i you know a great great finish by uh provod i think it was um with curling shot and yeah they looked they looked good for it to be honest um i mean obviously you know they knew they were gonna have to settle in for 20, 25 minutes of

pretty rearguard stuff.

And Portugal, obviously, Martin has kind of rotated and used his subs and tried to freshen things up.

But yeah, harshen them.

I mean, I think we knew that they were quite a limited side, you know, that they've got a new coach and they haven't really had time to...

to drill anything, you know, beyond just kind of sit back and try and nick one.

But what they did, they did pretty well, I thought.

Jonathan Faduba,

it was interesting what Johnny said about Ronaldo there and sort of how it impacts on the rest of the Portugal side.

And perhaps that's okay when Ronaldo is brilliant.

But when he's a bit older and he isn't brilliant,

that is a problem for Portugal, isn't it?

If he's going to start.

Possibly.

I mean, I didn't think Ronaldo was the problem in this game necessarily for Portugal.

I think there was a few other maybe tactical things, maybe like the three centre-backs is a question mark maybe going forward.

Martinez, the way he styled it.

I mean, watching the game, I had this sort of weird feeling like I was watching Premier League years for the past maybe 10 years or so, because there was part of the game was like Arsenal Norwich, you know, in late Wenga era, sort of Arsenal Norwich, where they passed it around a lot and it's very nice, but can't break through that low block, you know, and the deep defense.

Then you had a sort of like Salt Star era United where...

Portugal got the goal and Bruno Fernandes is screaming to the crowd and it's like everything of the day has been saved.

Then there was like the sort of Jotter, I don't know, cat that that had a bit of a sort of a liverpool west hand feel about it something like that so there was a it was a quite a strange sort of uh and roberto martinez is sitting there the whole time right he's an absolute classic premier league just had a familiar feel to the game in a way that sort of seen these moments before but um i i felt as if martinez as you mentioned there max is is the interesting part of this this portugal side and i think the team that he picked today was quite different to how he sort of looked at things in the friendlies and that kind of thing and in qualifying.

So I'm not quite sure he's got his balance right yet in the team.

I felt that

by that nature, that meant them getting the win is really important because I feel as if I hadn't got that win, I think there'd have been some criticism for him.

So I think that's maybe bought him a few days extra kind of peace maybe from the Portuguese supporters and the scrutiny.

But I think they did give me that kind of Martinez Belgian feel about them as well.

A little bit kind of very nice and attacking.

very open at the back,

transition really quite easy to play against.

And this is against Czech Republic, who are not a team who have a huge amount of threat going forward, let's be honest.

I think one shot on target, perhaps, which was the goal.

So, yeah, there were sort of reasons to be positive, but I wasn't really that convinced by Portugal if I'm being honest based on what I've seen.

Mark, I appreciate by asking you a question about Ronaldo.

I'm continuing to talk about Ronaldo, but I couldn't help feeling that just the coverage.

You know, there are other players on the pitch.

The social media you're looking at is just every, and it's a sort of cynical ploy by anyone going, well, if you we tweet about him, lots of people will retweet it.

But people don't ask Bollock on about this bloke.

It's just in mind-numbing.

No, you want me to as well, Max.

Yes.

Yeah.

So I think one of the most frustrating bits of the coverage, and it would have gone sort of all around the world, was there was actually a gold kick at one stage that was missed because

the TV producer decided to just focus on Ronaldo, sort of staring blankly, waiting for said goal kick to kind of come anywhere near him.

And there is is that frustration and i i what um johnny was saying earlier on about sort of the players um feeling intimidated by ronaldo there was one moment when bernardo silva was looked like it was easier to shoot than it was to pass and yet he looked up saw ronaldo out of the corner of his eye and felt like he was obliged to um to put the cross in i think that's why i I like Jotter because when he plays for Liverpool, he doesn't kind of feel like he doesn't feel like he has to pass to Salah, for instance.

He would just just take a shot himself.

And I'd like to see more of Jotta as well, I think, in this Portugal team.

It was a disjointed sort of Portuguese performance because Liao was playing very wide on one side, but then there wasn't really anything going down the right-hand side.

But they still, I mean, they dominated the game.

I mean, I felt like they, although I know the goals came late, but I mean, it was eight shots to one on target.

And I feel like, in terms of those transitions, Jael Paulinha will probably come into the team when they feel like they're playing against a team where they may be more vulnerable and that might just give them sort of the solidity and I would be interested to see what Portugal are like against the other two teams in this group if they play like they did

you know in the early game because there should be more space for Portugal potentially to exploit.

I don't think it's easy to play against a team that packs out the defence the way the Czechs did.

James says, how wet and miserable did shit look coming off?

You may not have seen that, Johnny, but god it was wet out there wasn't it god yeah i mean it was it was sort of fine in the evening a little bit of drizzle kick off and then yeah second half it just it takes on this this biblical quality look i mean just just to you know

more on ronaldo but you know to just add a little bit on that the players his teammates clearly like him you know they clearly revere him and i don't think that's necessarily a bad thing they want him in in the side they certainly want him around the place uh and as we saw with messi at the world cup that can have a galvanizing effect from the you know the very youngest generation of the side all the way through to the players who've been playing with him for 10 years.

They feel a kind of you know, not so much a debt, but a responsibility.

They want to do this for him.

Um, and I think that's fine.

There are times when you wish they'd try and do it for themselves a bit more.

There is so, so much talent in that squad, and you know, they need the confidence.

I think those players need the confidence to try things for themselves to take on three men or to you know to make the run to the near post.

Um, I think you know, Portugal will nil will need ronaldo uh at some point during the tournament but i i just uh you know there is there is very clearly an imbalance there and i it's interesting to see how martinez kind of deals with that as the tournament goes on uh johnny thanks mate thanks for coming on cheers good stuff johnny lou there uh out there uh in germany uh let's look ahead to the games tomorrow then scotland switzerland um you mentioned it jonathan like they've still got a chance but you know this is this is absolutely must-win territory now and like they have to turn up right because they just didn't okay germany are good but they didn't perform as well as we know they can last time out yeah i kind of agree and disagree there max i mean you you say it's the last it's must-win territory but it's it's not because they could draw and win the final game against hungary no good point it's must not lose it's must not lose territory i don't think it's as dramatic as that but i i definitely take your point in the sense of i think it's a must perform better than they did against germany performance if that makes sense because

yeah though it can't get much worse really in the way they approached it and i think that that's probably what adds to the sense of urgency that you mentioned there is that feeling that

it's like a really miserable feeling, isn't it?

I saw, I think, on one of the tournament reports that they do on, you know, sort of ITV, BBC, and

there was just a mood of like complete gloom and depression, really, around the Scotland camp, which is, you know,

you can lose games.

You can imagine Georgia have lost, but they're not going to go into the game.

probably in such a miserable frame of mind as Scotland might approach this game.

So that does add to the urgency that you mentioned there, Max.

I think Switzerland showed in their first game that they have some ability, but I don't think they're like an unbeatable side.

They do have some weaknesses there.

And so I think it's a game that Scotland can win, but the morale is so low at the moment that it feels, I think some defeats feel worse than others in the sense.

And that Germany beating really probably would have sapped a lot of life out of them.

Hopefully that could motivate them, but

I worry about it.

But I still feel as if the Hungary game is going to be the key one, really.

I think this is more about for Scotland.

This is going to be more about putting in a performance to give them a platform to go into that Hungary game and really sort of take that game to the Hungarians and try and get a win.

Because I think then they can make themselves clear and go through.

Even if they win this game, Max, for example, against Switzerland, I still feel that there'd be a little bit of pressure in that Hungary game if that kind of makes sense.

So, yeah.

So, you're saying don't win this one because that's too risky to win this one and put the pressure on it.

I'm saying play a lot better, play a lot better, but it's not the end of the world as long as you don't lose 5-1.

How do they do that, Mark?

Do they just, you know, because like individually, their big players didn't show up.

Yeah, I think that there are clearly some players in that Scotland team that are of a lower standard, and that's been brought up already.

And some of those looked outclassed against Germany.

But I think it's about the ones that actually are good enough to play at that level.

I know John McGimm was very hard on his own performance, and probably rightly so.

McTominay plays for Manchester United.

McGregor, whether they bring in Billy Gilmore, but these are players that are, you know, good players that are definitely capable of so much better.

And even though they're not as good as Tony Crowes and Gundoran and all what Germany had to offer, they're better than what they showed on Friday night.

And too many of their players just seem to forget about playing football.

And the occasion just completely overwhelmed them.

And they lacked energy and they lacked quality.

And that needs to change.

I think sort of the Scottish fans are a very forgiving bunch, actually.

I think they should demand more of their football team.

If you have a look at sort of some of the other kind of home nations, they've all had a tournament where they can sort of go home and remember and talk about it for 20, 30 years.

And Scotland haven't had that.

And they've had brilliant footballers in that time.

They've had great managers and they've not been able to put it together in one sort of tournament.

They normally sort of have one moment, or maybe it's one game, but they haven't been able to put it together for an entire group stage.

So I think they owe the supporters actually a performance.

I think they owe themselves a performance because it was humiliation really against Germany.

So I agree totally that this is must not lose because if you actually have a look at sort of since Euros went to 24 teams, the draws statistically goes up a lot in the second round of group stage games.

And I think that that is completely expected because for some teams that have got their win, a draw in Jafru, if you've lost that first game, it becomes must not lose the second one because at worst case scenario, you've got an opportunity in that last match to um it almost turns it into like a last 32 game rather than um sort of last 16 so i think that's the the aim for scotland don't lose and then you turn that hungry game into a knockout tie um no matter what happens and i think from switzerland's point of view they've already got three points on the board i don't think it draws a bad result for them either so um i'm not saying that it'll be one of those kind of mutually beneficial ones where after an hour that they what was it the battle of girona or something or he yeah

or even there was one game i watched in league two uh this season colchester against crew yeah that's on the where the last couple of minutes five minutes were ridiculous weren't they they they were so i mean i don't think we'll get to that stage early on but from scotland's point of view be sensible play to your strengths and just play better germany hungry expecting more of the same from germany jonathan yeah i think so they

They they looked really, really good against Scotland.

And I think that's probably one of the things that Scotland can look positively about.

They're not going to play against against Tony Cruz

for a while at least in this tournament.

The level is going to be lower that they're facing from Scotland's point of view.

But for Germany they just looked magnificent.

More will be expected of Mussiala and Wurtz obviously.

Havertz I thought had a really impressive match as well in the way he sort of dovetailed between the two of those players, those tens.

Cruise and Gunding, I thought were phenomenal in the way they controlled the match really and I'd expect more from them.

I think Hungary, I can't,

they're sort of quite a sort of tidy team, but I struggle to see how they're going to contain all the threats that Germany have to offer, especially on home soil.

So yeah, I'm expecting a Germany win really, and I think they'll take the group fairly comfortably.

And it just remains to be seen what Hungary's approach will be.

Will they sort of think to themselves,

let's try and go all out for this match, or will they sort of maybe

save themselves for that Scotland game?

That's what I think they may try and do.

So yeah, I think it's going to be an entertaining game, but I would fully expect Germany to get the job done.

And Croatia, Albania, Mark,

we're in must-not-lose territory for Croatia.

Yeah, I think I suppose because they've got that game against Italy last, they will see this game against Albania as right,

we have to win this one, get the three points.

The goal difference took a battering against Spain.

I felt unfairly.

I didn't see the three goals between the two teams, but a good opportunity, I think, for Croatia.

albania got a real big helping hand didn't they in that first minute against italy and i i thought they were i'm going to be patronizing i thought they were plucky and and kind of stayed in the game but until that chance right at the very end like Italy were cruising through most of that game.

And so if Croatia don't sort of throw the ball to an opposition forward player in the first minute and do take their chances, which they didn't against Spain, I still think there's enough time for Croatia to recover in this group and make it through as a best third-place team.

But to do that, they have to win.

Pressure on, you know, Modric didn't have a great game against Spain.

So I would be expecting better of him and his fellow midfielders.

But yeah, I think this is a good opportunity for Croatia to win against an Albanian side that I felt was flattered by that 2-1 against Italy.

The disgrace of Hejon was when West Germany beat Austria 1-0, which was a result that meant both of them went through and Algeria went out of the 82 World Cup.

We haven't mentioned the Germany fan who missed their game against Scotland on Friday after his left hand was broken by a wayward shot from Germany striker Nicholas Fulkrug during the warm-up.

Can you imagine of all the players you wouldn't want to be on the end of?

You know, when you're just sort of looking around chatting to a mate and then a Fulkrug, like just absolutely, that would be zero revs per second, wouldn't it?

Going straight into your wrist and breaking it.

Well, I hope you're all right.

And exciting news for you and anyone else.

If you happen to, you know, that man who's broken his arm is a Football Weekly listener.

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And that'll do uh for you two because uh me and barry interviewed sakir starmer yesterday and we'll do that interview in part three but uh for the time being cheers mark thanks max thanks jonathan thank you max part three is next

hi pod fans of america max here barry's here too hello football weekly is supported by the remarkable paper pro now if you're a regular listener to this show you'll have heard us talk before about the remarkable paper pro we already know that remarkable's the leader in the paper tablet category digital notebooks that give you everything everything you love about paper, but with the power of modern technology.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

This is an interview that Barry and I did with Sakir Starma at half-time during the Belgium-Slovakia game.

It got Barry out of a minute-by-minute, it got me out doing bath time.

They approached us and said we could have 10 minutes, and we thought it was a good idea since if Labour do win the general election, he could have quite a big impact on the future of football.

The reaction to the fact we're doing this has been mixed.

This is an interview.

It is not an endorsement.

You can support whoever you want to support in the general election.

The offer is open as well to Rishi Sunak, Ed Davey, Nigel Farage, and everyone else.

If they want to come on the pod, we would gladly have them.

Here is our interview with Sir Keir Starmer.

Sir Keir Starmer, welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

How are you doing?

Very good.

Thank you for having me on.

We are

deep in the election campaign, going from place to place.

But everywhere I go, I'm trying to go to another football ground on the way.

So we're at Bristol Rovers today.

We were at Crewe last week, Crewe Alexander.

So really good to be here.

Yeah, I'm trying to tick off the 92.

I mean, you asked to come on this pod.

I mean, quite a lot of our journalists don't ask to come on.

Why do you want to talk to us?

Oh, because I think football, firstly, football is my passion, my obsession.

I still play football.

I get an Arsenal season ticket holder, but also because I think there's a lot of politics in this in terms of clubs like Bristol Rovers, where we are now, and other clubs with the independent regulator, which is obviously a political issue

because you've got your Premier League, which is fantastic,

but also your Bristol Rovers, your other clubs, they need support to ensure that they can bring the talent through, they can have good players, they've got the infrastructure and the staff here that they need in all the different clubs.

And of course, they're usually a big part of their community as well.

But that will only happen if some of the politics through the football governance bill is, we get it right.

And we talk a lot about the

politics of football on this podcast.

I've had a look at your manifesto right you you believe in the regulator right you say you want to protect football clubs across our communities and protect is quite an interesting word isn't it a lot of people don't think allowing clubs to be sold to nation states with terrible human rights records is protecting them i mean do you think that is protecting them do you think nation states should be able to own football clubs well i don't think any

government and certainly not an incoming labor government will want to put off um investment um foreign investment into um our businesses into our football i do think think that the independent regulator will have a big role in who is actually suitable to run a club.

Lots of issues about transparency and accountability.

But of course, there's also vitally important the matter of the pyramid of structured payments and support from the Premier League down.

So we've got in the Premier League the best league in the world.

We saw a bit of that on show yesterday in the England game.

But we also need to make sure that the money is there there for the lower league clubs to make sure they've got the sport they need.

So it is a really important governance bill.

As things stand, the regulator will be sort of hamstrung by a clause that forces them to acknowledge and take into account the government trade and foreign policy objectives when making decisions on the suitability of new owners.

So surely you as Labour leader would remove this clause and allow the regulator to decide what is best for the game?

Yeah, I mean, we do need, it was a government bill, it was a, and obviously it didn't get through, and therefore, uh, we want to get it through as quickly as possible.

But I do want to just have a review of the bill itself because we put down a number of amendments to improve it, but obviously we didn't get that far.

So there's a bit of work to be done on it.

But I don't want to hold things up because, you know, it's very important that we don't have a breakaway super league out of the Premier League and the governance bill will help in relation to the powers there.

It is very important that deal goes through in terms of the money structures.

And we put in place the governance we need about ownership of clubs because, you know,

there's obviously the question of sort of foreign direct investment, but there is also, you know, your stories of your Wigans, your Berrys, your other clubs that have reading, you know, clubs that have struggled and desperately need some of that governance in place.

But you wouldn't do anything to stop.

I mean, nation states already own clubs, right?

So it's quite hard to say now you can't do it anymore.

But I think a lot of fans.

Yeah, we're not going down that road.

We don't want to put off investment into football, but we do need more transparency and accountability.

And that will come through the regulator.

We also do need to make sure there isn't a breakaway super league because

that will be devastating for football in the UK.

There were so many journalists who wanted to write and expose about Abramovich and his links to Vladimir Putin, right?

But they couldn't because of this thing called slaps, which you will know more about than I do, which is, you know, legal threats to basically intimidate.

and exhaust journalists and campaigners.

Would you make more legislation to stop those?

I mean, that's not just football, right?

That is just sort of rich people avoiding justice.

Yeah, absolutely.

We do need to address that.

I mean, not just in football, as you say, in other areas, we've seen these slap injunctions and cases that inhibit the ability of people to criticize.

So, you know, we do need to look at that.

But I mean, I also should say, you know, the single most important thing, if we get it over the line to form a government, will be growing the economy, making sure we're creating wealth and that living standards go up.

So we will also, at the same time, have to make sure that we've got an intense focus on the most pressing issues of the day.

legal mind is considerably better than mine and Barry's.

Do you think Manchester City's legal case against the Premier League is a kind of obstruction of justice of the type that I was just talking about.

Well, look, the honest answer to that is: I have, I mean, I know what the charge, I know broadly what the charges are

and how the system works, but I haven't looked at the details of it.

I mean, as an Arsenal fan, I think I would be seen as someone who had an interest

if I expressed too much on it.

But, you know, the system's got to work.

We'll see what happens.

But I think they've hired David Paddock Casey, who's going to do a big job for them there.

Sakira, do you think what

is too expensive these days?

Are ordinary fans being priced out of the game in favour of, say, football tourists who come in and pay over the odds for tickets and go to a game and then fly out again?

Yeah, I do think it's too expensive, particularly at the upper end.

And I'd link that, by the way, to some of the late kickoffs.

If you've got, for example, an eight o'clock kickoff on a Saturday, then the away fans, in all likelihood, have got to pay to get to the ground, they've got to pay quite a lot of money then to get into the ground.

And then if the game finishes at 10 o'clock at night and it's the other end of the country, in all likelihood, they're also then having to pay for overnight accommodation.

It becomes a very expensive package.

And I do, you know, one of the things that will happen, obviously, is or envisaged is that the review into pricing and into start times for games as well.

I'd actually put the two together.

Right.

Would you stop them then?

I mean, I mean, you're not the regulator.

The idea is the regulator is independent from government, but like, would you want the regulator to stop 8 p.m.

kickoffs, for example, for so, so away fans could get home soon?

Yeah, I want to, I want to see the regulator look at that and review it.

And obviously, you know, I don't think it's that sensible for politicians to sort of wade in on things like what time should a football pit game kick off.

But I mean, I go regularly.

I mean, a season ticket holder at Arsenal.

I go a lot to football.

And I know what it feels like for away fans on a Saturday night coming out of the ground at 10, 10.30 at night and inevitably having to stay over.

And if it's somewhere in a big city, London or Manchester or wherever, that's not cheap.

I don't think politicians should wade in and say all games have got to kick off at X o'clock.

But I do want a review of this because it is, you know, the pricing of it is pricing out a lot of people from actually being able to go to football in the way that they would have done in the past.

Yeah, your manifesto says you want to put fans front and centre.

Like, how much power do you think fans should have on who should own their football club, on the colour of their shirt, et cetera, et cetera?

Oh, I think in the bill at the moment, there's not a big enough role for fans to be consulted and therefore what we do want to do is to improve the rights of consultation of fans.

And look what are fans most concerned about?

They're concerned about the name of the club, they're concerned about the colour of the shirt, they're concerned about the place where the football is played.

These are real, I mean there are other things, but predominantly they are the issues that I think to most fans would be uppermost in their mind.

And we want to make sure there's genuine consultation on that with the regulator.

I should also add players and staff, by the way, who I don't think have enough of a role under the current provisions.

You watch the England game last night?

Were you screaming for Gareth to take the handbrake off?

Yeah, I mean, look, the first thing I'd say is,

I don't know how many times I've watched England in an open game of a tournament either lose or draw a game that we should have won.

So the positive first, we're top of the group.

We did win it.

It was a great header by Duke Bellingham and great provision by Sacco.

I thought had a very good first half.

But we are going to play stronger opposition than that.

So you're saying Southgate out.

Are you saying Southgate?

No, no, no, no.

I'm a big Southgate fan.

Look, we're top of the league.

We're top of the group.

I'm never going to say that.

And he's built a great squad.

But

basically, what I thought we would do was to go on from having scored that opening goal.

to sort of make it a bit more comfortable.

And we didn't manage to get into that.

But look, as I say, normally after the first game,

an opener by England, we're all tearing our hair out as to why we didn't win the game.

Usually they're not doing much better than the second game, and then desperately hoping that the third game of the group goes well so we can get through.

We're off to a really good start in terms of top of the group, points actually on the scoreboard, and a great header, actually.

I mean, it's a great cross, great header.

At the moment he went for it, you could see it was going in the back of the net, and so that was really good.

Um, well, look, I know you're quite busy, it's probably like spinal tap, you've no idea who you're talking to next.

I'm I've done five pods for the Euros, and I'm exhausted, so I don't know how you're not absolutely knackered.

You probably are, but you can't say you are.

But look, thanks for your time.

We really appreciate it.

See you soon.

Thanks.

That was our chat with Zakir Starmer.

But that'll do for today.

I have no one to thank but myself.

Thank you, Max.

That's okay.

I thought you were marvelous.

We'll be back tomorrow.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

This is The Guardian.