Dortmund delight as PSG’s Champions League woes return: Football Weekly

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Hello and welcome to Guardian Football Weekly.

So Barissia Dortmund are in the Champions League final.

Another brilliant performance, defensively excellent control in midfield and a real threat going forward.

And once again, PSG, PSG it.

Has it got to the stage where we feel sorry for them?

They hit the woodwork six times over two legs.

A big win in Troy Townsend's world, but not in the one the rest of us live in.

At the same time, it didn't feel like they were unlucky.

Another disappointing night from Bappe, Dembele, Ramos came in and didn't perform.

So a Champions League final for Marco Royce to retire with.

And what a game from Matt Hummels.

35, scoring the winner and leading from the back.

To play like that at that age, stunning.

Speaking of aging centre-backs, Johnny Evans and Casemiro, it's perhaps not fair to single them out, but a 4-0 defeat for Manchester United at the brilliant Crystal Palace is not ideal.

Oliver Glasner has got something going, and quickly at Selhurst Park, we will try to talk about Palace for a bit before repeating ourselves about Manchester United.

Then there's Moyes leaving West Ham and an excellent year for the East Anglia and Essex region in general.

All that plus your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenny, welcome.

Hi, Max.

Hello, Lars Simmitson.

Hello, Max.

And hello, Jonathan Faduba.

Hello, Max.

All right, let's begin then at the Part des Prince.

PSG nil, Brussier Dortmund won.

Max Himmel's header in the 50th minute.

So Dortmund go through 2-0 on aggregate to reach the Champions League final.

Rob says, Is there a name we can give the annual cultural holiday of PSG bottling the Champions League, the Feast of Smugness of Glendenning?

Ian says, Where would Barry place this particular PSG capitulation in the portfolio of PSG's greatest hits?

Yeah, it it is the annual Let's Enjoy PSG crashing out of the Champions League pod.

The novelty never wears off, Barry, does it?

Or does it?

I wouldn't say this is going in with a bullet, you know, at number one or four.

I wouldn't even describe it as a capitulation.

I thought it was a pretty poor effort on their part.

They were a goal down.

going into the second leg.

I guess there's no need for them to panic, but it didn't even seem like they realized that they were in a Champions League semifinal, second leg, in which they were losing until about 15 minutes to go.

They did nothing in the first half.

I thought they should have,

or I was surprised they didn't start with more intensity and give Brussia Dortmund, you know, plenty to worry about, but that just didn't happen before halftime.

And then when Brussi Dortmund scored in this quite early in the second half, That was more or less the tie over.

Now,

while I appreciate

PSG did hit the woodwork four times in this game,

it didn't feel like they were unlucky.

They just weren't good enough.

And

once again, for the fourth Champions League game in a row, both legs of this game and both legs of the preceding game, Killian Mbappe

didn't...

didn't stand up to be counted.

He was very much on the fringes, a quite peripheral figure.

And, you know, these are the games he is supposed to win for PSG.

And he didn't show up.

Can we talk about Dortmund?

We will obviously go back into PSG, Lars.

But they were so good.

Again, they've been so good over these two legs.

And it's actually quite hard to pick out.

I started saying Matt Hummels, he was brilliant defensively with Schlotterback.

Reyerson and Mattson were brilliant in the mid-field.

And then I thought, I'm just listing the whole team.

I did it after the first leg.

But to a man, again, they really stood up.

Yeah, and it's been a confusing thing to watch because I've sort of slightly, arrogantly and rudely written them off many times this season in the Champions League going,

this isn't a good Dortmund team, because being one of these sort of Europe hipsters, I do watch the Bundesliga occasionally, where, believe me, they have not been great this season.

They've been very underwhelming domestically.

But there is something about these big European Knights that they seem to just thrive on.

Could talk about the tactical setup.

Maybe this is a team that's actually slightly better suited to almost being an underdog because they have sort of rugged rugged but not very fast defenders they have some quick players on the counter maybe that whole situation suits them better but but but even beyond that there just seems to be like a glint in their eye and they just seem more up for it which is such an unsatisfying uh piece of analysis really but every when i've seen them in the champions league they just have looked a different team and and some of these players who have often disappointed in the last couple of years have have really have really stepped up and it was wonderful watching homos in this game it was such an old-fashioned

center house performance, just flying into everything, just clearing things here and there.

Magnificent stuff.

And for me, of course, watching Julie Andri Hassan keep Mbappe quiet is

quite something because he's a fairly the the right back who's from Norway, he's from a small place called Lindahl.

He's not a very glamorous character.

Like even even by the standards of Norwegian fullbacks, he's a pretty low-key kind of guy.

And actually when he left Norway he left his club, Veeking, were in the second tier in Norway, and he went to Union Berlin, who were still in the second tier then.

So when he went abroad to join second tier Union Berlin, I don't think a lot of people thought this would end up with him sort of stifling the best player in the world and going to a Champions League final.

That is a sort of minor fairy tale in the middle of everything.

But he was great.

And Dortmund did a very good job, I think, kind of

funneling the attacks down the other flank.

Like, I really felt, I don't disagree with Barry's assertion that Nbappa didn't show up.

And it's always kind of funny to.

But I think this was a classic case of stopping the supply into him as well.

I thought Dortmund were very, very good at putting a lot of bodies around him.

And of course, if there's a lot of bodies around one player, that means there must inevitably be space somewhere else.

So this really should have been a game for Uzban Zembele to sort of thrive because he should have had more space.

And Dortmund were so happy that she's kind of funneled the game over to that flank.

And he did not have a great game, Max.

This is not a good one for Uzband Zembele.

No,

he's had a terrible couple of games.

Yeah, he's so naturally gifted, you know, quick, technical, two-footed, but just makes a lot of strange decisions on a football pitch.

And just, yeah, inconsistent.

And they managed to put a lot of crosses in PSG, but really,

if you've got like Hummels and Schlotterbeck, and after a while, they put Sule in there as well.

Like, you can put crosses in all day.

Like, we're perfectly happy with that.

And so, tactically, very well executed, incredible effort.

And I just love, loved, lastly, I just love seeing them just all sprint to the away end at the final whistle.

Like,

the second the final whistle went, like, the whole bag four and everyone who were in shot certainly just legged it to the away end, which I thought was lovely.

Yeah, it was beautiful.

I loved Sula coming on for Sancho in the least like-for-like substitution that I believe I've ever seen in the game.

And actually, you mentioned Sancho there.

Jonathan, Adeyemi and Sancho over both legs, so much more effective than Mbappe and Dembele.

Certainly in the first leg, to an extent.

I didn't think they had a massive impact on the second leg.

But then again, neither did Mbappe.

Obviously, Sancho was taken off early into the second half, as you just mentioned there, for Sula, which was a very strange change.

I thought it was quite a big risk, really, because I felt that Dortmund were relatively comfortable at that point.

And to sort of suddenly change their whole tactic and go to a sort of low block 5-3-2 and really sort of just have three big centre-backs and just sit on the edge of their own box pretty much, I thought it was quite a risk and invited PSG onto them.

But PSG just didn't have any kind of impetus to be able to get through that.

And I suppose you could say the tactic worked in the end.

Adieime, of course, it made me kind of chuckle a little bit just

how stunned Darren Fletcher and Ali McCoyst were that he's quite quick.

I think it was about the 16th time in two legs that they mentioned that

he's got a bit of pace about him.

He had an okay game, obviously forced to save from Donna Rummer early on.

Both of them had pace on the break.

So I did think it was a bit of a risk from Dortmund in the sense that they didn't really have much pace on the counter-attack in the latter stages of the game.

So if PSG had got one back, it would have been quite interesting to see how the game would have developed.

For me, it felt like Mbappe kind of...

It felt like the end for Mbappe at PSG in the sense that he just didn't have the teammates around him.

I know a lot of people will blame him and say, well, he should have done more.

I felt personally that he just didn't really have the team around him.

Too much was expected of him, really.

And Dortmund had a plan for that.

If you look at the other flank, Dembele, while he was so outstanding against Barcelona, one of his former clubs, against this former club,

Dortmund, he didn't really do much.

I thought that Barcola kind of when he came on didn't have a massive impact.

Of course, Gonzalo Ramos, a lot was expected of him, the striker up front.

He had a couple of half chances that he snatched that and didn't really make the most of.

I didn't think he had a really big impact in terms of a physical presence or holding the ball up.

I kind of felt a little bit sorry for Mbappe in that sense.

I thought, you know, sometimes he can't do everything.

You know, he scored quite a few goals in this tournament.

But you could argue, again, as Lars has mentioned, there with the likes of Ryerson and Hummels, he's not playing against sort of the, you know, Hummels is, while he's been had a magnificent career, and I thought he was magnificent, him and Schlotterbeck, by the way, the centre-backs were fantastic.

You know, you might expect Mbappe to do a little bit better against like a former V-King fullback.

But all in all, and also one of the other things was he kept dripping, you know, when the tactical changes were made, Luis Enrique put him back into sort of like a centre for forward position as a number nine, and he was up against three centre-backs.

So, yeah, all in all, I think Dortmund really managed the game well and fully deserving of a Champions League final.

And, you know, a lot of the talk, the atmosphere was a lot of the talk of the game pre-match about the yellow wall and could PSG match that yellow wall.

But I kind of agree with Barry.

It had a bit of a, it didn't really rise to the occasion of the atmosphere inside the stadium.

It really was, they were quite flat and didn't really have any urgency about them until like, like Barry says, the last sort of 10, 15 minutes of the match, it felt.

Isn't the point with Mbappe that

if you're the best player in the world, of course you can't do everything on your own, right?

I mean, I suppose maybe we've just been spoilt because Messi could, but like, if you want to take over from him, if you want to be the best and you want to win Ballon Dora to Ballonor, these are the games, right, where you do have to turn up, you do have to suddenly do something that no one's expecting you to do, Lars.

Yeah, I completely agree.

Um, I don't love

like slaughtering a player for just not being able to do it in one game.

But you know, you're completely right.

I mean, there's the way the bar is set, and I don't like

the point that Jonathan makes about how it's it's all kind of on him.

There aren't really any other like superstars in the team.

It's well observed, but it is also, at least if reports are to believe, it is what Mbappe wanted.

I mean, if you go back to last autumn,

18 months ago or something,

a while back anyway, there were all these leaks that he was unhappy at PSG.

Because that was while sort of Messi and Neymar were still around.

And he was sort of, well,

I want to be like,

we should move away from this sort of superstar model.

And I want more sort of young French players around me.

Like he wanted he wanted to be the man.

He wanted them to go in this direction.

So you can't really then complain when it is all on you because that's kind of what he wanted.

And it is something that we, you know, you opened with all the stuff about are we all gonna cackle with glee for five to ten minutes because PSG have gone out and I'm always up for that.

But I do find that I feel slightly less like Shot and Freida than usual because I do think this is now a less ridiculous team than it used to be.

Like they've not just thrown a ton of money at random celebrities who are an obvious mismatch and who play bad football whilst like bored superstars, Hollywood people are spotted in the crowd.

Like this sort of total nonsense period of the PSG project, I feel like we've moved out of and they have at least put together a team that's sort of kind of makes sense.

And it's gotten them to the semifinal, which is further than they usually go.

But it does mean, yeah, maybe there is a lack of, you know, you've come around the other circle.

you've gone too far maybe there's not enough superstars in the team that used to have too much superstars i don't know maybe this is a sort of a short blanket type of situation it's the interesting thing barry about a lot of people say about psg right that the the part of the problem is they don't play in a competitive enough league right and then

the same people or different people or some people are saying look the premier league is too intense for european football right so so is does that mean the bundles league is in the perfect place they're leaving the bundles league in the perfect place where they're they're not so intense that you can have a few games that are easy, but it's intense enough that not every game is easy.

So then you can do well in European competition.

Well, I think in terms of intensity, it's not how intense each game is, it's more the

schedule.

I mean, there are a lot of easy games in the Premier League because quite a few teams in the Premier League aren't very good.

But

I don't watch enough German football or French football to have any idea how intense it is on a game-by-game

basis.

But

I would question whether that is the reason PSG go out on an annual basis.

Look, the Champions League is quite hard to win, and

if a couple of those shots that had hit the woodwork had bounced in a different direction, we could be having an entirely different conversation.

But the fact of the matter is, PSG are out again, and we have made the point

that this is a much more likable PSG team than ones of your.

And

Luis Enrique seems like a really nice, interesting guy.

But

just Brussio Dortmund were better than them over two legs.

And

Fulkrug up front, I thought he deserved.

I mean, it was a brilliant team performance from the goalkeeper all the way through with some outstanding individual performances.

And while he didn't score last night, I thought Fulkruger was excellent again.

Just the way they lumped the ball his way and it stuck and he was able to help alleviate the pressure on them.

But I just think PSG's approach to this game was all wrong.

They should probably have thrown the kitchen sink at them from the start rather than in the last 10 minutes.

Totally agree with that.

And also, as much as I think they're less ridiculous than they used to, they still have this sort of petulant streak, PSG, you know, towards the end,

when things were really starting to get a bit dire because they'd conceded another goal and they were running out of time, we had like Dembele putting a nonsensical tackle on one of the Dortmund players.

And like, I wouldn't go so far as to say he nearly got himself off, but that was sort of in orange card territory for me.

And then we had Hakimi pushing someone for no reason.

And I just goes, you guys realize that you are the team that's in a hurry here, right?

Like, just

causing this stupid situations will just allow the opponents to time waste.

The sort of petulant crybaby side of this team is still there under the surface, and it kind of came out.

It came out towards the end.

A note on Jaden Sancho, who, you know, this wasn't as showy a performance as the first leg, of course, when he completed something like 107 dribbles or whatever it was.

But I just thought he put in such a good defensive shift,

which should be credited, because, again, he's someone who's often sort of derided as being a lightweight and an inconsequential player.

And I honestly have been slightly confused by the reaction in some parts of the British media to his performance in the first leg.

Because honestly, if I was,

as a Norwegian person, if...

One of our players had struggled the way Jaden Sancho has struggled for a period and then suddenly just dropped an absolute world-class performance in the semifinal, I would, first of all, be really happy.

And second of all,

I'd be curious to learn, like, why have what is it that dortmund have done differently why have they been able to get so much more out of him but every time i hear someone an ex-player or anyone in the english media talk about it it seems like they're more busy trying to talk about why it kind of doesn't count somehow like i turned on the radio yesterday and the first thing i heard was uh was a former english player talk about well you see it's easy for sancho to play for dortman because there's just no pressure there i was like hang on

this is the second biggest club in germany like he played brilliantly in a Champions League semifinal in front of 80,000 people.

Like, what are you talking about?

It's just weird that the attitude is to immediately explain why Sancho playing well for Dortmund somehow doesn't count rather than just look out, hey, maybe there's something we can learn from this.

Like,

maybe just be more, let's be more curious about why he's playing so much better there and rather than just kind of dismiss it.

This seems like a weird approach.

Wow, Marco Royce, who has suffered so terrible injuries at like really bad times in his career to get a Champions League final at Wembley he probably won't start but he'll probably come on and if he if he wins it you know he was so close to winning the Wunders League last year of course Dortmund were like it was just wonderful to see him on that pitch I thought Julian Brandt as well who's such a brilliant footballer was was so good um Real Madrid played Bayern this evening uh 2-2 after the first leg uh how do you see it going Jonathan I struggle to see anything but a Real Madrid win however having said that there is a sneaky part of me that feels like Bayern Munich will win the Champions League simply because if there's one thing Bayern Munich are good at doing, it's putting every other club in Germany in the shadows.

And Bayer Levakus are about to go on to an unbeaten season, potentially.

Had the best season in their history, pretty much.

Also could get to the Europa League final.

Dortmund have just got to the Champions League final, which has now taken a lot of the European spotlight.

It would be classic Bayern to sort of rubbish all that by winning a Champions League, just say, forget all you lot, we're the number one.

So I just feel like there might be a little twist in the tail there, potentially.

However, Real Madrid, obviously, at home, you have to think that they get the job done.

They have that sort of magic power about them in the Champions League, where no matter how many shots you throw at them, they still sort of seem to be able to deal with it and come out triumphant.

I think it'll be a really good, entertaining game.

I think tactically, Thomas Tuchel is one of the best managers in Europe.

And I think in one-off games like this, he's really, really good.

I think that's when he's at his best.

So I feel like they'll have a plan.

It's just a case of how effective will it be?

How clinical can they be?

And obviously, do they get the luck they need

a team like Real Madrid?

I think it'll be a fantastic game.

Did want to say a little thing about Sancho.

I know we're going to come onto Manchester United in a little bit.

Oh, please do.

Yeah, yeah.

It's just a bad look for Eric Tenhag, isn't it?

I mean, that is a bad look.

Seeing Sancho dancing on a table, celebrating, getting to a Champions League final the night after you've been slapped 4-0 is a bad, bad look.

But was he on time?

Was he on time for dancing on the table?

That's the question.

Well, hold that thought and we'll do Manchester United in part two.

HiPod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Now, Barry, Guardian Football Weekly has discovered something called social media.

It feels like something that will be very positive for the world.

You can now find Football Weekly on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube.

Just search the Guardian Football Weekly or follow links in the description of this episode.

We'll be sharing clips from the show, asking you for questions, sharing some behind-the-scenes and live show footage as well.

Barry, we are pioneers of the internet.

Fantastic, yes.

I'm speechless.

I don't really know what TikTok is yet,

but I'm hugely looking forward to,

you know I imagine it's something that

when young people see what we're doing yeah

they they'll all clamber aboard the the tick-tock bandwagon as well I would have thought so never have you sounded like never have you sounded like an older person old man

when you say behind the scenes footage I

that that just sent me into a massive panic i don't know i'm just i'm just reading what joel wrote i don't know what those things are either to be honest Yes, Lars.

It's kind of hard to gauge what our audience is because we just kind of sit down and record this and then it goes out on the internet and we never know if anyone's even listening.

But we have done live shows, of course.

You guys have done a bunch of them.

I've done a couple.

So I've seen sort of roughly what the sort of average age and composition of the people at the live shows is.

And based on that, I think there's no real need for us to put anything on TikTok.

That's our show.

Oh, ye of little faith.

You just watch those numbers go through the roof.

We'll be doing synchronized dances before you know it.

Anyway,

let's go to Monday Night Football.

Crystal Palace for Manchester United.

Neil Stewart says, remember when David De Gea was the problem at Manchester United?

Just simpler times.

Crystal Palace have done the double over Manchester United this season.

And actually, they were favourites to win this game, Palace, before it.

And we should, before Jonathan goes on a long Manchester United, completely acceptable and justifiable.

I don't know if it's a rant or a deconstruction.

We should say, Barry, and lots of people wanted to say, can you please just mention Crystal Palace?

They were brilliant in this game.

And like Glasnar has them going.

At least ANSA are brilliant.

Wharton looks like a, you know, like my favourite centre mid already.

Like they were so good in this game.

Yeah, and I was sort of making a mental note

watching this game.

Don't let this bit of the pod be all about how bad Manchester United were because Crystal Palace were quite simply outstanding and they bullied Manchester United.

Like Manchester United, they were just bullied by

Palace.

And we know how good Eberitiaz is.

We know how good Michael Elise is.

Adam Orton has been fantastic.

He's just made the transition from

lower end championship team to mid-table Premier League team.

Just made it look absolutely effortless.

And he's one of the Palace's outstanding players already.

And Oliver Gasner has done a fine job there

but I think the way he's getting a tune out of some of the other Palace players who aren't as celebrated as

the ones I've just mentioned is what's really impressed me.

Like Will Hughes always seemed to be quite peripheral player.

under Hodgson.

I don't know if it was to do with injuries or just Hodgson didn't particularly fancy him, but he hasn't done a huge amount since signing for Palace from Watford, I think it was.

But he's been brilliant.

Joel Ward has slotted seamlessly into this new system of

or adapted to this system of Glasnar's.

Tariq Mitchell, Chris Richards, just the ones we would normally sort of dismiss as the supporting cast.

And they are still to an extent the supporting cast but they're all just playing so well under Oliver Glasner they seem to have completely bought into his philosophy and

what they've won for the last five games I think and just hugely impressive and the worry as always is always the case for teams like this is who who are we going to lose during the summer?

What players will we be able to hold on to?

Because the Sharks will definitely be circling around several of their players and i think they might need to offload one or two to fund this refurb they're doing at sellhurst park which has been sort of threatening to happen for quite a few years now uh so they're finally going to to increase the capacity but yeah a massively impressive performance from them and i just I was laughing, like literally laughing out loud at the way in which several United players were just bullied by their opposite numbers.

Paul says, given the project that Glasn is embarking on with Palace and the way Eze and Elise just know what each other's going to do, would they be better off staying off for another season at Palace rather than jumping ship to Spurs or United, who seem less likely to win anything themselves?

Lars, what do you think?

Well,

it's you'd have to ask them a little bit in terms of what

where they feel they're at in their career path and their

plans, because

it's easy to say that after 4-0 winning against Man United.

And it's obviously very, very exciting right now.

But I'm sure those are two very ambitious young men who want to play at a higher level.

But you make the point that you want to be careful with where you leave for.

I think Palace look like a team that's going to be a perfectly decent mid-table team next season.

So

if the people who are coming in for you are offering a potential to finish a couple of places higher and make a little bit more money, then

that might not be that exciting.

But I think both of those have the potential and are good enough to play for teams that challenge

for trophies, you know, insert joke about Tottenham here.

So I think they'll be of interest to even bigger clubs than the aforementioned Spurs.

And it's a tough thing to turn down to.

But it is, it would be very frustrating if one or both of them left this summer because it feels like we've only seen glimpses of them playing together because there's been so many injuries this season.

And we're now seeing them play together for a manager who's not Roy Hodgson and that immediately looks very exciting so I feel like that's something as a neutral and not even a Palace fans just as a neutral it's something I'd like to see happen more times before they're split up and just very quickly word on Jean-Philippe Mateta

that second goal was amazing like the guy's right-footed like he's got no business pulling off that finish for the second and he's turning into one of these players who just yeah logically my brain knows that he can't be that good because like I can see what the numbers are and but he just seems to play well almost every time I watch Powers that's I think that's a coincidence you sometimes get these with players I went through a whole spell of thinking Shane Long was very good because he just seemed to play very good every time I watched West Brom for a period clearly Shane Long not that great but yeah if maybe I'm like a good luck charm for Mr.

Mateta maybe Palace should should should get me into the defancy seats regularly at Solar Spark yeah I mean I wouldn't tell him that you also were a good luck channel for Shane Long.

I'm taking grave exception to this traducing of Shane Long.

How dare you?

He just had a time, didn't he, when he didn't score a lot of goals.

Anyway, on to Manchester United, Jonathan.

This was Johnny Lou writing.

The reliable Johnny Evans reliably perched 10 yards behind the rest of his defence as if auditioning to be the drummer.

The forlorn sight of Casemiro sliding in on Michael Elise on Monday night and not just missing Elise, but the memory of Elise.

Like a man walking into a room and immediately forgetting why he entered it.

I mean, you don't have to start with Johnny Evans and Casimiro, Jonathan.

I don't know where you want to start with this result and just the malaise at Manchester United.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I'm allowed to say a little bit about Palace as well.

Oh, yeah, okay, if you want to.

I suppose I could come back to them.

But yeah, on Elise and...

And Eze, I just, my overrunning feeling from it was, I just think that's such a joy to watch.

And it made me think, I mentioned it on a social media platform, that, you know, I wonder how many youth coaches both of them went through four academies when they were when they were emerging and I wonder how many youth coaches told them like stop showboating or you know like that's too many tricks and just watching that game they just made the they the effervescence they had they just made the game so exciting to watch and I feel like sometimes watching Premier League matches we we lack a little bit of that in terms of like the flair and that excitement that you want to see Coming on to Manchester United, well, I mean, where do you even start?

I kind of agree with a lot of people tweeting in.

You know, it's almost boring now talking about

how bad they are really.

It's not boring for anyone who was growing up in the 90s.

I just can't get over the image of Sancho dancing on a table.

To me, that just sums up Manchester United this season, really.

He wasn't even allowed to go into the canteen to get like to get crisps.

To get near a table.

Yeah.

Yeah.

For half a season.

Because he was such a naughty boy at Manchester United,

apparently.

And then to see him such a sort of like positive, have such a positive influence on the Champions League semi-final and just seemingly so happy it just paints the contrast to me really of like how

there's definitely something going wrong at Old Trafford I mean

you talk about sort of Eze or Elise and people say well Manchester United might try to sign them but I can imagine a scenario where Elise goes to Manchester United and just has a miserable time and it's terrible like there's no

it's gone way beyond the point of this is a player issue in my opinion where you can sort of point the finger at players and say say they're not doing enough.

Maybe Casemiro, but to be honest, that was coming when you're spending sort of 70 million on an aging player.

That was obviously going to be one.

You just kick it down the road, and they knew they'd kicked the can down the road, thought they'd get one good season out of him.

And now they're paying the price for that.

And he's got time left in his contract.

Erickson, a three-year deal, when you know, at the time it was Brentford who were the main team that were really interested in him, there's just a collection of bad recruitment decisions.

But I think it is way beyond the player issue now.

And

I do some sort of find it a bit strange where I saw one sort of pundit last night saying that Ten Hag's done a reasonably good job.

And it makes me sort of question my own sanity at times because I think he's done a comfortably worse job this season than David Moyes' first season at Manchester United when everyone was unanimously decided that he was a terrible, one of the worst managers ever in United's history, if that makes sense.

And

Ten Hag's managed to outdo him, just how badly United have been

it's really hard to sort of point fingers at where the problem lies

but

I really because obviously Ten Hag is also in a situation where maybe he maybe he's suffering in that environment and it's really hard to know what is this sort of strange thing at the heart of the club that is making it so so toxic um that obviously the glazes is what most people point the finger at but

they can't be having that bad much of an influence over everything surely can they to be that bad so yeah it's a strange one um

united on the on the night were just terrible, awful, like one of the worst displays you can see.

No kind of

just nothing about them, just a ball of nothingness.

Um, Palace was so good and so, so flamboyant to watch that it just made it even worse in a way.

It was like watching Torville and Dean and then watching two people in a park like swinging punches at each other, like just

the contrast was so enormous.

Actually, I'm trying to wonder, I'm trying to wonder which I'd prefer out of those those two things.

But I mean,

if I chanced upon them.

If both are supposed to be skating, Max, then, you know what I mean?

Right, okay, right, I understand now.

I mean, Jamie Carragher said, this is one of the most poorly coached teams in the Premier League.

That is a fact.

You have to make us believe there is something there.

I'd expect Manchester United's under 23s not to lose 4-0 like that.

I've been coached by some top coaches, and a lot of what I see here is just wrong.

I think, and there's a question, Lars, about, obviously, there are injuries, right?

Johnny Evans and Kasimiro is not who he'd want to play at centre-back, right?

They have all sorts of injuries.

They haven't had a left back for however long.

But at the same time, they're still playing this kind of attackers press high, midfielders don't.

There's a huge gap there.

There's a huge gap there.

Like, you have to be pragmatic, surely.

Yeah, it's the doughnut formation.

Tin Hag seems very keen on it.

Like, just no players in the middle, which is very confusing.

I don't think I've ever seen a supposed top team ever try that.

And for this game, it was a perfect storm, right?

You have still insists on pressing pretty high with those forwards.

Uh, defenders will sit back because they're slow and not very good, and so you make a massive hole in the middle that you're now attempting to fill with poor Kobe Mayno, who's very young and still, you know, a little bit wet round, yeah, still a bit sort of inexperienced, and Ericsson, who's not really

someone who you know, I think we all like as a player and as a character, but doesn't really have the legs anymore.

So, it's just a perfect storm, and the players who are there to sort of fill that hole is as a on Elise.

Like, this is not good.

And you mentioned the center halves.

I mean, this is where I have some sympathy with Erickson Howe.

That's probably what their

sixth and seventh choice center halves, I think.

I mean, it'll be Martinez and Varane if they're fit, but they never are.

And then there's like Lindelof and Maguire would be the backups.

And then Cambuawa probably is

in there now, having played quite well.

So that gets us to Ericsson and out of position Casimiro as like the sixth and seventh option in defense.

Evans reportedly also not fully fit for this game and Casimiro clearly not a center half.

So there are very few squads in the world where you can take out like five center halves of the equation and what happens afterwards is any good.

Like this is where we should have some sympathy with it.

But I just don't understand this insistence on playing and setting the team up in a way.

That's just not conducive to getting results.

Usually you try to set up a team in a way to kind of hide your flaws and accentuate your strengths, strengths, right?

Well, this just doesn't do that.

If the flaws are an unreliable back line and sort of a lack of dynamism in the middle, the donut formation makes that look so much worse.

Like, I don't understand the thinking behind it.

And I didn't think the sort of interview, like, to be fair to him, he did sit down with Gary Neville and talk for quite a while.

But I just didn't think the answers were very convincing when he was asked about this.

Neville was kind of poking and prodding a little bit about the sort of bizarro tactical situation.

And he he seemed to say something to Hag about: well, we want to press high and we don't want to confuse the players by changing strategy.

I don't know, I thought it was deeply unimpressive, and uh, they're a total, total mess.

Yeah, I mean, at least Ten Hag did say they were bad, which is a real sign that they were bad after a game.

But that is a relief because he seemed like increasingly deluded recently.

I said the thing is, I was listening to Andy Mitten, Barry,

from United We Stand, saying obviously there's lots of hope with the new owners coming in, but that but that some of some staff there are sort of seeing these you know all staff emails from big Sir Jim saying you've got to sit at your desk and you've got to stay at home and all being a bit like I'm not sure I'm not sure I love this new broom actually and you know what you have to kind of create the whole point is everyone says well it's not it's not it's too much that it's not a player thing it's not a manager thing it's something grander than all of this so they had to carry everybody at this enormous like there's a a lot of employees there in Manchester and in London.

They've got to carry them all with them somehow.

Yeah, to do.

I mean,

United fans were just desperate for anyone to

go in there and start influence and take charge of football matters.

I don't think they particularly cared who was going to be, just as long as it was just somebody new.

Now, I have

made my grave reservations over

Sir Dave Brailsford quite clear, and I'm not going to go over it again.

But he may very well do a good job.

I personally have my doubts.

We'll see.

He could prove me wrong.

He may prove me right.

Sir Jim Ratcliffe apparently did a tour of the facilities and was unimpressed with the state of the I.T.

department and

the

dressing rooms of of the younger teams that were you know squalid by all accounts and that's not good enough and you know fine tidy them up and it's good to have everything clean and ship shape but that's not really

one of the big problems you know

facing i

think uh erichton hag will probably be fired whether he wins the ff cup or not

then who do you get in they need a lot of new players they need to ship out a lot of dead wood uh they need to sort out the recruitment i mean there was i think it was accompanying the guardian match report for this game there was one picture i think it was after matetta's goal went in and it was just a picture of casimiro johnny evans anthony and

somebody else all standing around looking sad and you're going well you know that oh it was christian erickson you're going well there's four of the major problems right there for, you know, one reason or other.

There's just so much wrong at that club.

It's an absolute shambles, but it's going to be really interesting to see what happens

going forward.

And Jonathan, like the next manager, I mean, do you think Ten Hag will go one?

And like Tuchel is the favourite, then Southgate, then Potter, then Deserby.

I mean, it's obviously hard with these because you don't know who really writes these lists.

And

that may not be the short list, but they're quite different managers, right and sort of tuchul coming into this sort of iniosy organization just doesn't feel like it's exactly the sort of thing that would work yeah i think tuchel would would be the number one choice i think he's the obvious one in the sense of someone who could change things around i could i could see him sorting it out tactically um

the the what well I think Southgate seems to be the one, the outside one, I think it could have a chance of happening because there just seems to be this sort of soft, launchy feel about the the rumors on that are emerging on social media like you know when you put out a story and then see if it kind of see how it lands and see how people take to it it just seems to be float sort of floating around i don't think necessarily he

you know while he's an okay coach i i don't think he's the answer at united at this time i i think that it needs like a kind of a not necessarily a strong man manager but it needs someone who can go in there like tuku and and just rip things up because you know you just mentioned tactically united conceding goals is fine when you know lars talks about the defense and having no centre-backs, which you can understand that from that point of view.

But that's not the issue, I think.

The issue is, if you look at, I was looking at Mikhail Arteta's early part of his time at Arsenal.

They finished eighth in the first two seasons under Arteta and

didn't do a huge amount in terms of league finishes.

But the thing with Arteta is the first season, they massively improved their defence.

So although they didn't, you know, improve holistically overall, you could see an immediate improvement in their defensive shape.

And it kind of went from there.

Then it was, oh, they can't score goals.

And season by season, he's worked on it.

People say about Ten Hag, he wants to play this high press.

United don't know how to press.

Then people say, well, he's a possession coach from the Ajax School of Things.

The worst thing for me about that Palace game was every single time United regained possession, they lost it within about two passes.

Like there's not, you can talk about defending, but there's zero ability to keep the ball.

And that is almost every single game you watch with United.

They don't know how to keep the ball.

So, yeah, I kind of agree with Barry.

And then it's also the press conferences and the kind of just borderline delusion of saying the game, you know, played well or we're the most entertaining team in the league when

they've got a negative goal difference.

So, yeah, I think he's really not helping himself in that sense.

And that Sancho dancing on the table, I'll go back to it.

That just doesn't help your, that does not help your cause, does it?

You know, the person that you've decided is the problem of the bad egg of the club that's going to, that we need to get rid of is has just gone on to hugely better things within months.

Um, I think that for me personally, it would be Tuchul.

I think he would would be the one that I'd look at.

I think he's the one outstanding coach on the market.

But, you know, when you look at someone like even Glasner going back to Palace and how well they've done, you know, Glasner got Wolfsburg

into the Europe.

He's won things at Frankfurt.

And the thing with him and the contrast to me is he's implemented a style at Palace there within sort of two, three months.

It's not, if you're a top coach, it can't be that difficult to mould players into a sort of fairly cohesive unit.

I don't buy the argument that it's all the players and he needs like a million new players that they're saying.

I just don't buy that because there's no identifiable style of play that you can sort of hang it out on and say, well, there's something to build on there at all.

It seems to just get worse and worse.

So going back to your original question, sorry, Southgate seems to be the Enios.

I feel like he's the company face that I could see happening, but I don't think that would necessarily go too well.

I think someone like Tushu would be a better choice.

Yeah, and that, I mean, that has there has been sort of renewed chatter on the rumour mill last couple of days.

Southgate chatter has intensified

an element of Chinese whispers to it, but you know, certainly it seems to be a school of thought that Southgate is the man, put it that way.

And I just, just briefly on that, that just seems like such a to decide that now seems wild to me.

Now, I know Barney wrote a piece on why it makes sense and made the case for it.

I just think you've got to think of if your plan is to appoint Southgate ahead of next season, you do know know that there's something happening between now and then, right?

You're aware that there is like a small football tournament of which Gareth Southgate will be involved in some capacity being played out between now and the start of next season.

Because you may think, let's say England wins the Euros, and Southgate

is, yeah, of course, it comes home, and Southgate steps away, you know, job done, and goes straight into the Man United job as like the triumphant England manager.

I can see why that is an attractive scenario.

But

let's face it.

That really is not an attractive scenario.

But let's face it, it's also not...

I cannot think of a less attractive scenario.

There's also a pretty good chance that doesn't happen, right?

And the expectations for England in this tournament are so high.

I think anything other than

getting to the final...

maybe getting knocked out in the semis by someone really good, but anything other than that will be seen as a huge disaster.

And Southgate will then be seen as like a failure,

a flop, a traitor, like all these sort of weird things that the press comes up with.

And then you go from that, being the guy who couldn't get it done with the greatest England generation since blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And now he's the new Man United manager.

Like, you have a complete sort of PR disaster right off the bat.

Like, this is going to be

getting booed every ground.

Yeah, it's just going to be a total.

Oh, I can't handle it.

Now, that's kind of irrational and weird and not fully Southgate's fault.

But that is a a very possible way that that could go.

So, if the rumors that they've already decided on Southgate are true, then again, I would really question whether they've thought this through, whether they understand how any of the mechanisms around elite-level football work, whether they have any comprehension.

Yeah,

if that's true, I really question the sort of

I question a lot about the new regime, if that's true, that they've made that decision now.

All right, then we'll see.

Well, yeah, that'll do for part two.

Part three will begin with news about the Guardian Football Weekly book.

HiPod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was the new game day scratchers from the California Lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today, it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question.

Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

A little play can make your day.

Please play responsibly, must be 18 years or older to purchase, play, or claim.

Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Barry, we've been nominated for Sports Entertainment Book of the Year.

Up against Phil Tufnell, QI, and Gary Newbon.

The first,

yeah, I know.

The first entertaining book that Jonathan Wilson has been involved in.

That is for sure, isn't it?

Hey, yeah, thank you so much.

And it's that kind of humor you're going to get in the Guardian Football Weekly book.

You can vote for us by going to sportsbookawards.com

or check my Twitter or Wilson's Twitter.

It's a public vote for us, not a public vote for Football Book of the Year, Lars.

And your book, Erling Haaland.

Harland is up for that.

And

who are the judges?

Do we know who's going to judge it?

Who can we pay?

I don't know.

Anyway, good luck to you, Lars.

And good luck to Susie Reggie in the children's sports book category.

Didn't she write it in conjunction or collaboration with one of the lionesses?

Leah Williamson.

Leah Williamson, that's her.

Yes, she did.

Well, good luck to the pair of them.

Right, West Ham have confirmed.

David Moyes is going to leave at the end of the season.

Juneau Lopategui is reported to be close to signing a deal to take over.

Moyes said, I've enjoyed four and a half brilliant years at West Ham.

The club's in a stronger position than when I returned back in 2019.

Larsie is right about that, isn't he?

And we have talked at length about Moyes.

And he, look, he won them a trophy.

West Ham don't win trophies.

It's a great achievement.

But the writing's been on the wall for a long time.

Is Lopotegui

the Spanish David Moyes?

I think it's a bit harsh, but I think he's...

feels like in sort of aggressively meh appointment.

Like, I'm really sort of

i understand why you would want to move away from moise even though he has done a good job and all the things we've talked about like this has done a good job the football's boring we've had this conversation so many times i i i get why you would move away from that but then i was kind of hoping they'd appoint someone exciting and interesting because you know you already got some pretty cool players there and you know you're your london club they have a bit of money like there's potential for west ham to be a really cool team and an interesting place and i just i don't think he's bad i don't think he'll make them them terrible i just it's not some it's not an appointment that really excites me he's a pretty defensive coach um that's funny it's funny they brought in someone dower and defensive like that is funny isn't it all these west ham fans just raging at being quite successful more successful than they normally are because they're dour and defensive and that's what they're going to do again i don't get it I don't understand why you would do this.

That's my main reply.

Like,

I don't see the logic in it.

And again, I don't think he'll make them terrible and get them relegated i'm sure they'll finish mid-table next season and it'll be fine but it's just why

is my overriding feeling you know what i was really baffled at why west ham fans were dissatisfied with moise after winning a european trophy for them just about a year ago uh and i was I just couldn't really understand it.

Even the league position he had, you know, he's got them too.

And you struggle to think how someone else could come in and do a much better job.

and then I sat through that levacus in West Ham first leg and honestly in 90 minutes it was a 90 minute rewiring of my brain and I fully understood why West Ham fans were feeling that way because of the approach so I think I suppose it speaks to modern football isn't it like people don't survival or doing okay or finishing eighth isn't really the story anymore people people want to be entertained if you're going to be paying the kind of money you're paying to watch Premier League football these days that that there's a there's a part of the contract I think says that I'd like to see something quite fun, please.

And that Levercousin game, I thought West Ham could have approached it in a different way and maybe

the second leg almost showed that they could have offered a lot more with the players they have.

So yeah, it's a mutual parting ways, isn't it?

I do feel sorry for David Moise in a sense because

he's a really good coach and I think that

he will do a job and I think he will find a, if he wants a Premier League job again, I think he'll get one.

But I guess, you know, I do think it speaks speaks more about the demands of the modern fan.

They want to see something entertaining and see some joie de vivre, I guess.

And they didn't, they weren't just not getting that from Moise.

So in terms of Lobotegu, I don't really have a massive opinion on him.

I think I kind of go along with what Lars is, to be honest.

I think the jury is kind of out on him in terms of different stages of his career.

He's had different success levels.

So it's...

I can't really pin down exactly what he's about, but he did okay at Wolves.

I absolutely am here for Vladimir Sufal knocking it long for Michael Antoni on the opening day under a new manager, just hearing the London stadium going, oh, so this is what we're getting.

Alex says, Why have Hull sacked Liam Rossini?

And he says, Liam Rossina being sacked has made me very sad indeed.

Has any managerial departure ever left you feeling heartbroken?

Have you ever been heartbroken, Barry, by a Sunderland manager getting the bullet?

No, just by women, various women.

Oh, well, don't worry about it.

So I'll try and bring the mood back up now while discussing the sacking of Liam.

This is what we need to put on TikTok.

We need Barry's love life diaries on TikTok.

Advice to

the young men,

learn from my mistakes and my

French, like Will Smith in England.

That's what you could be, Barry.

Yeah.

Anyway, Hull said in a statement, since Liam's arrival, we've enjoyed an open working relationship.

I don't know what to talk about open relationships on that previous

anyway.

They've both been seeing other people.

Exactly.

Progress has undoubtedly been made over the course of his tenure.

He will always be, yeah, he was just, he was just coaching Rotherham at the same time.

We didn't care, but it turns out that was a bad idea.

He will always be a part of this family, and I thank him for all his work.

It's become evident that our visions for the future are not aligned.

And I feel that now's the time to make a change.

Our philosophy is clear.

We will continue to drive this club forward.

Whilst doing so, I will continue to be open and transparent with our fans.

Yeah, listening to

people who know more about this is that he's like he's a brilliantly well-spoken coach.

He's incredibly popular.

I think he's done a really good job, but they weren't always brilliant.

I think it's sort of not perhaps not the total travesty that I thought, but I'm still surprised that he got sacked.

Well, I think he's...

I mean, everyone seems to love Lee Marsr.

I've never met him.

He seems like a top block.

Seems like a decent manager.

I think he's been a bit unlucky

in the latter stage of this season with injuries.

So he has Aaron Connolly.

He's a Hull striker now, the Irish fellow who sort of briefly shone at Brighton before

sort of fading into obscurity for a while.

He's been out injured now.

I don't know how good he is.

Liam DeLap was there on loan from City, isn't it?

And he's been out injured.

so that's going to cost some goals.

I think the interesting part of that statement from the owner is that our visions for the future are not aligned.

I'd like to know more detail about that.

He's done a decent job at Hull.

He signed a three-year contract in December, so presumably he's in line for a nice payoff.

I guess he'll get another job somewhere else.

So he leaves with his head held high, his reputation intact, and it's

probably not that big a deal.

I think you might be right.

Yeah, good luck to him.

I totally agree on everything you said.

Again, not man, but just comes across brilliantly.

And I hope he gets another job soon.

Charlie says, can we get an in-depth review on Mark Bonner after his move to Gillingham?

Yes, Cambridge United legend.

Mark Bonner's joined Gillingham.

He's very good, and I think he'll have a good time.

And I wish him all the best.

Is that in-depth enough?

In the EFL, Bolton 2, Barnesley, 3 last night, which means Bolton goes through 5-4 and Aggregate in the League 1 playoff.

They'll play either Oxford, hopefully, or Peterborough in the final.

Oxford are one up on that.

Crawley beat MK Don't 3-0 in League 2 in the first leg.

Doncaster beat Crew 2-0 on Monday.

I'm told, Jonathan, there is no time for Essex and East Anglia having a successful time and the surrounding environs, unless you can do it in one minute.

All the teams that have done well in this new hotbed of football.

Could do it in 30 seconds.

Brilliant.

Gipswich Town promoted with close to 100 points.

Braintree Town promoted from the National League South to the National League on Monday in a final against Worthing.

Needham Market promoted from the seventh tier to the sixth tier after winning the league.

Great Wakering Rovers against Romford is the FA Vars final at Wembley.

Two Essex teams.

Colchester stayed up and Norwich are in the playoffs, championship playoffs.

So for the rump of England, it's been a pretty bootylicious year.

Absolutely.

Cambridge stayed up.

Northampton,

sort of in East Anglia, sort of like depends on where you draw the line.

They were for Anglia News purposes when they were desperate for some goals.

Bobby Barnes missing a penalty on the old cricket pitch at Northampton.

Are things going well for South End as well?

They survived.

They haven't gone busted.

Yeah.

Oblivion.

Wow.

It's just the future.

They nearly got in the playoffs with even with the poise deduction.

Yeah, they did.

They narrowly missed out.

Finally, Colin says, what did Barry make of Equalizer 3?

Personally, I enjoyed it.

relatively basic premise but well executed gave the fans what they want i also enjoyed it it was certainly better than uh the second half of well i i'm guessing it was certainly better than the second half of wolves man city i only saw highlights of that uh but it would be my least favorite of the three equalizer movies so far could you give me just a tiny for someone who's never watched the equalizer movie would you be spoiling it if you told me of just a vague idea of what it is i mean it's not just it's not just somebody scoring a league.

Basically, Denzel Washington is an is

a journeyman striker who scores late on to get a share of the spoils for Stevenidge in a League One match.

And then he goes to another club and scores another equaliser.

I can't wait.

Sorry, dude, carry on.

He's an Uber-driving vigilante

who sticks up for the little guy and is incredibly violent.

Yeah, except he's not an Uber-driving vigilante

in the latest.

Oh, has he done the knowledge?

Has he done the knowledge?

Yeah, he's done the knowledge.

Now he's driving a black cab.

Oh, excellent.

Oh, I look forward to watching all of those.

And that'll do for today's podcast.

Thank you, Barry.

Thank you.

Thanks, Lars.

Thank you, Max.

Thanks, Jonathan.

Thank you, Max.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

This is The Guardian.