Harry Kane returns to haunt Arsenal but Erling Haaland stifled – Football Weekly podcast

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Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

What a night in the Champions League.

So many brilliant goals under the Bernabau roof.

Foden doing what you expect, Vardiol doing not what you expect.

And then a glorious volley from Federico Valverdi means that it's all square going into the second leg.

Meanwhile, at the Emirates, not the Arsenal we've been used to seeing.

After going ahead, they look jittery at the back, unpicked by a brilliant Leroy Sane, and a penalty for Harry Kane.

Don't use them up now, Harry.

Arteta changed things, and Jesus and Trossard combined to keep that tie level before penalty gate right at the end.

And then Penalty Gate earlier on that nobody saw.

Elsewhere, Everton docked two more points, and it appears we won't know who's getting relegated until sometime in June.

There's a couple of hiccups at the top of the championship, 150 caps for Jesh Fishlock, a little more tumble dryer, your questions.

and that's today's guardian football weekly

on the panel today will unwinn welcome good morning max hello nikki bandini morning max hello barry glen denning hi and joining us for our part one cameo sid low hello sid morning max Immy says, what games you have on the big screen and what on the little screen?

I went Rail City, big screen, Arsenal, Bayern, little one.

Tim says the Champions League really does only get good at the quarterfinal stage, doesn't it, Barry?

And Gail says, Was that one of the best nights of Champions League football ever?

Let's not go too far, but Sid, you were at the Bernabau roof on for more atmosphere.

How was it?

Well, the Ruth thing is curious.

I'm surprised how much attention the Ruth gets.

It just means you don't get wet.

And I mean, that's where the difference is.

I'm, you know, I'm quite old-fashioned, but I quite like football in the rain.

Feels like a pity not to have a rainy night.

But anyway,

it was a, I thought it was a slightly strange, brilliant game.

So it was clearly really good and a a lot of fun.

But I sort of didn't feel watching it like, oh, this is a 3-3 classic.

It was kind of a 3-3 that happened rather than a 3-3 that was always going to happen, if you see what I mean.

Yeah.

No, no, I think that makes sense.

Because I suppose, did you think that neither side was really sort of dominant at any moment?

They were just the goals happened and that decided things.

A little bit.

Although, although I to kind of take the,

I don't know, I suppose

the emotional side of it or the feeling around it, which maybe isn't isn't entirely objective.

I felt that once when City went one and up, I felt there was a period where Madrid really looked like they're wobbling, City hit the post, and you think, Wow, this, you know, this could be done.

Then, when Madrid went 2-1-up, you felt, wow, this could be done again, but the other way, because for a while, I thought City were really quite poor, to be honest, and surprisingly poor with the ball, including players who shouldn't give the ball away, giving the ball away a lot.

And at 2-1 to Madrid, I felt like, wow, this, you know, Madrid could kill City off here.

And then when City went three to up again, I again felt, well, City could kill Madrid off here because Madrid at that point, I think, had completely run out of energy, which is curious given that they had, you know, nine days to prepare this and City came off the back of all the games and so on.

And so I suppose at that point, you say there was no domination, but it felt like here's a chance to end it.

So that, that in a way, should be a reflection of a domination.

And yet at the same time, you're right.

It wasn't like there was a team that was completely taking the other one apart.

It was just that it felt like there's a team that has the chance now to end this.

And that happened three different times, I thought, or maybe even four.

Well, it is interesting seeing City not be great on the ball.

And Rodri have now, what, two not very good games in a row.

Yeah, if I was Roderick, I'd be phoning up City's Human Resources Department asking if he's got any ludos to take

maybe so he can miss a loot and game at the weekend.

He basically did that last night.

um so post-game in the mixo and he he he was asked how he was and he said tired i need a break i need to stop But then I need to be able to adapt to this, to what's happening at the moment.

And he said, at one point, I need to grip my teeth and find a way through this.

And I think you're right.

I think implicitly in that, there was, oy, that loot and match.

Let me stay at home.

Recall Calvin Phillips for one match.

Yeah, he just looks very tired.

It's almost like playing 60 games a season.

It's quite unsustainable for a human being.

It's quite strange.

And he was saying a few weeks ago that he's had to really try to prepare better and felt better this season than last.

But yeah,

he's managed to get himself a few games off through through suspension, so you know that might be a sensible decision.

See if he can grab someone's neck, maybe, if he does have to start against Luton.

Yeah, this looks he looks tired, and that's you know, whatever you say about professional footballers, you can't get past that.

You get past a few things, gritting his teeth might get him through the odd half an hour period, but against Real Madrid, um, when they're breaking like they are, and the amount of possession city actually seems to tie him out because his passing was atrocious.

Um, so yeah, poor old Roderick.

I'm just sad that no one picked up on Max's Day in Liu and made it Day and Luton.

Oh, really nice.

Thank you, Nikki.

It's a different thing, isn't it?

A Day in Lou and a Day in Luton.

I mean, they are.

Yeah, I think we're going to be able to do that.

With all due respect to Lou.

We will exhaust you, yeah.

Some, Barry, some absolutely brilliant goals, especially in the second half.

Like when Foden...

uh Guardiol and Valverde in this game.

It's sort of what you want at this stage of the competition.

Well, I ranked them in order of personal preference and then I read Sid's match report.

Oh, you don't want to do that.

There's no way that's an accurate description of what happened, and that's really skewed

the order I have them in.

So I had Rodrigo first for that impudent little finish where he just rolled it between the legs of Ortega and it barely hit the back of the net.

But then Sid said it was deflected off Kanji's heel.

Massive deflection.

So I didn't notice the deflection.

So

that's my list buggered already.

So, I had

it makes me feel quite a lot better, by the way, to to to realize that you were watching it on TV and didn't see that deflection.

I was about four million feet in and I watched it several times, I was clicking a mouse to pause.

So, I'm obviously

Baz didn't see the Kamavinga deflection either, to be fair.

So, I've now I've now revised my list.

Uh, so I've gone uh, Valverde

Guardiol Folden, and Guardiol and Folden scored the same goal.

So I'm giving Garliol

higher billing because he doesn't do very often.

We kind of expected from Folden, not from him.

Then Silva, then Rodrigo, then Camovinga.

Right.

I mean, the thing is, Nikki,

Foden meant both touches for his goal.

And Guardiol definitely didn't for his, I would say.

It was definitely a bit of a post-game look, a post-goal look, wasn't there?

And you sort of think, okay.

But it was such, it was, it it was bonkers that game because there was um obviously the big screen small screen question unsurprisingly arsenal validated for the arsenal on the bigger tv but by the end of the game of course you fully focused on the madrid game which ended a little bit later and that ball that came from a corner i think to danny carver had outside the box and it's about 30 yards out and i just thought it was going to end up in the net because i just that's what we've been watching like all night like this is going to go in like he's going to have a swing at it and when it went wide it's like my brain almost couldn't couldn't handle that he hadn't hit the target it was it was a crazy game of football i mean i think when i saw the XG from this game afterwards, it wasn't even that high.

No, it's just that the finishing was extraordinary, which kind of goes back to what Sid said at the start about perhaps not feeling like it was

the same game it was perceived as inside inside and outside the stadium.

That what you were saying about that shot as well, that was the really disconcerting thing for me.

And obviously,

it's even more disconcerting when you're doing a match report and the time is running out.

And you're thinking, do I end this yet?

And I must admit, I found it really disconcerting that there wasn't a late winner.

And it sort of felt all wrong.

So

why hasn't this had that kind of big explosion moment where Brown Madrid inevitably score in the 98th minute or something?

And yeah, the quality of the goals, I suppose, is probably the reason why there were more goals than it felt like there should have been, because actually it took, well, four of the goals are outside the area and two of the goals are deflections.

But the funny thing is that there were actually chances, weren't there, for Madrid to put it away at a 2-1 that were much easier than some of the ones that were missed.

There were a couple of chances for Vinnie Jr., weren't there, at least, and one for Bellingham after the, oh, oh, I can't remember who it was, gave it to on the edge of the box.

Yeah, so there's two, isn't there, running, running in the second side in the first half, one for Vinicius and one for Rodrigo, if I remember rightly.

And then early in the second half, there's a Bellingham Mamaidon, is it?

And then I think Vinicius over the bar, is that right?

I can't even remember what day it was yesterday, but yeah, that's I think that's about right.

I think it was, it's um

worth noting that in the list of the six scorers, the name Erling Haaland doesn't feature among them.

And he was pretty anonymous yesterday.

I didn't know he's always a threat, just his presence on the pitch frees up space for other players.

But I was going through his

goals this season, and there's quite a few games, City of either, big, biggish games the city have either lost or drawn that he has failed to score in.

Sevilla,

two defeats and a draw against Arsenal, Villa, Chelsea, Liverpool, and now Real Madrid.

He hasn't scored in any of those big, you know, what I would say are big games.

So

I'm first out of the traps to say he's a flat-track bully.

You know, anyone can score five against Luton, but

apart from Rodri at the weekend, obviously, because he won't be there.

But,

yeah,

what's going on?

Well, the second you're to say it, because DeJori says Harland, a flat-track bully question, Mike, the Graham Hick of the Premier League, which was a reference that I enjoyed.

I don't know what is the feeling amongst city fans.

Well, I mean, the point is, here is a guy that doesn't have many touches.

If he doesn't score a goal, he's basically anonymous.

But

he didn't, you know, Rudiger, I mean, it was great to watch those two together, sort of having their own private fight, or Rudiger just fighting him all the time and him just standing there.

I just wondered what's sort of the city fans' view of

Haaland, if there's any truth in that feeling that on those massive games, he doesn't necessarily show up.

No, I mean, you're not going to get many more popular footballers than the bloke that scores more goals than anyone else in the league and most of Europe.

He's been incredible, and he came up against a really good defender again yesterday, and he's probably not at his best overall.

But again, he's had a

pretty momentous last 18, 20-odd months, or whatever now.

So, no, I think City fans still love him, no real concerns.

I'm sure City fans would argue that him being on the pitch and his presence means that there's more room for the likes of Foden to deal with.

I think the changes with, say, Doku coming in this season has been quite interesting for Haaland because I don't think the ball gets into the box as quickly with him because he takes probably an extra touch at the moment.

And that's caused a few problems.

And say, been a little bit in and out of injury over the season, so he's not really found his peak, which hopefully you'll find in the last sort of couple of months and

prove Roy Keenan and Baz wrong

the dream duo.

I mean, Max, you're mentioning Rudiger, and I think that that's also part of it.

In a way, this was the perfect game for Haaland to do nothing.

And, you know which is possibly a slightly harsh way of putting it by the way early in the first half i still don't know because i haven't seen replays if that early shot it hits loonin' hand or the post or both it looked to me like it was a bit of both the the early chance he had it was both right good and bad um i'm glad it funny because that's what i wrote i was just hoping that wasn't was it was it did it hit the post at harlan it goes right near post and i think it's a combination of the hand and the post at least that's what it looked like to me but i wasn't i wasn't 100 sure about it anyway that was you can't trust basil you can't trust after my run

that that was you know that was the the one moment but i mean if i don't know if you saw the the pre-match press conference from from from rudiger so rudiger last year played the first leg against city and then didn't play the second play the first leg and played very well in a one-one draw and then didn't play the second they lost 4-0 and and he was asked whether anchilotti had apologized And

he stopped a little bit short of saying, oh, don't be silly.

He said, well, no, he didn't apologise, but he doesn't need to.

And he said, and you're a footballer.

You just have to accept it, even if you don't like it, which I thought was quite pointed.

He's been brilliant all year, Rudega.

But this was the kind of the perfect kind of game for him.

And Rudiger has that sort of slightly daft antics thing, that kind of, let's make this a fight.

And there was a, there was a moment in the pre-match press conference when he he'd been talking about stopping Haaland.

And he'd been talking about, you know, making sure there are fewer options for him and how this is a collective approach and all the rest of it.

And then there's a point at which he completely changes his mind on this.

He said, well, I could tell you it's a collective thing, but I will take this as a personal fight.

This is personal between me and him.

And it was that kind of game.

And I suppose Harland's one of those forwards that kind of can't disappear.

You get some forwards who can sort of disappear and sort of slide away and then suddenly appear in the area.

You know, he's 18 foot tall and he's got long blonde hair and he just is such a focal point.

I think in a way that made it easy for easier for Udiger.

And so in that sense, I guess Haaland had it about as difficult as he's ever going to get it, really.

Interesting,

Will, that

players who aren't there often get focused on.

Obviously, De Bruyne wasn't well because there was sort of, you know, is he resting Foden at the weekend?

And that's what I thought when the teams were read out.

And you wonder how much they missed De Bruyne, but I wonder how much they missed Kyle Walker because, like, Real Madrid seemed to, you know, Palace exploited him at the weekend.

And you sort of think if Palace can do it, Real Madrid can.

And Rodrigo and Vini Jr.

really did.

City, I would say, with a far better team.

but Real Madrid was so effective with what they did.

They had a very good game plan.

A lot of the time, there was 11 men behind the ball and and they wanted to swing the counter, isolate Akanji, and get down that side.

And that's what they did.

And that's, you know, that's where

the second goal comes from.

And there were many more occasions where that goals were coming down that side because of the isolation that Akanji felt.

And as good as Akanji's been since he's been at City, he's not a right back.

I just, that far the better team thing, just like, can you say you're far the better team when you've had fewer good scoring chances in the game?

I mean, Madrid had more clear-cut chances in this game.

I would say City, I mean, okay, aesthetically, City were better is what I was trying to say.

But the Real Madrid team were very, very effective at what they did.

I wouldn't say they were particularly aesthetically pleasing at times.

Dermot says, has there been a better midfielder in the past 15 years than Modric?

Will I be asking the same question in 15 years after another Modric masterclass?

Nikki, he was so good when he came on.

Yeah, well, just in light of that Haaland conversation before, I think Modric had almost twice as many touches in 15 minutes as Haaland had in the entire game.

That's how influential he is.

He comes in and he instantly exerts that just that familiar calmness, that familiar cool on the ball.

And I think it really sort of is something that runs through this Madrid team, which is always the thing I think when I see them in these Champions League knockout ties.

And it's the thing which I give a lot of credit to Ancelotti for is even when they're losing, they don't feel like they panic.

They don't feel like they've got any sense of, oh, God, we're losing.

We've got no chance here.

There's always that sort of confidence in this Madrid team that, yeah, you know, we can always score a goal.

And I think that that's to the manager, but it also goes to having players like Modric.

You can now bring off the bench and just say, okay, well, we're going to add that little bit of class in the last 15 minutes.

That's always been part of my theory for

why it is that these mad comebacks happen in the Champions League.

And because to be honest, when you analyse what Madrid have done, and particularly that Champions League season where they beat PSG in Chelsea and Man City,

you do have to factor into those.

Hang on, they were a bit bloody lucky at times.

And you do have to factor into that.

Well, look, if you look at this logically, they were totally overrun at times.

But the modges thing and what you've just said about Madrid kind of getting those moments when they get back in control and we'll score.

I've always thought there's this kind of strange coexistence in Real Madrid during Champions League games of a massive superiority complex with the humility to say, actually, there will be times when we're not as good as the other team.

And for a team that's got that many good players in it to sort of accept that, yeah, there will be 20 minutes where they overrun us.

But we're good enough that if we can get through that, we'll still be there.

Rather than thinking, oh, shit, what are we going to do?

They're massively better than us.

It's like Real Madrid, this weird team that accepts it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that welcomes it, but accepts it and knows it can happen.

And so has the humility to say, yeah, there are good teams out there, but also the arrogance, if you like, or the confidence to say, but give us 15 minutes and we're coming for you.

And that was again what it felt like with Modrics last night, Madrid being a bit overrun, not getting any of the ball.

And Modric comes and says, all right, look, it's all right.

Give me the ball.

We'll sort this out.

I've never seen a performance, I don't think, in the European Cup like Modric against Atletico Madrid.

Can't think which year this will be now, 2017, at a guess.

Madrid won the first leg 3-0.

And Atletico were 2-0 up about 15 minutes into the second leg and absolutely destroying Real Madrid.

And you thought, wow, this is actually going to happen.

And it was like for 15 minutes, Modric said, lads,

calm the F down, give me the ball, and it'll be fine.

And for basically for 15 or 20 minutes, he played on his own and just kind of just to kill the game.

And there was a little hint of that last night.

That idea that says, it's all right, I've got this.

Total joy.

It's a total joy.

I mean, it is worth remembering, Baz, isn't it?

That Real Madrid and City drew in the first leg at the Bernabal last season, and then City absolutely destroyed them in the second.

I'm not sure they'll do it again.

Pep said before the game, well, you know, it could be Pep nonsense, obviously, but it's very difficult to do that

Real Medic twice.

But you know, last season's game is unlikely to have any kind of bearing on or last season's second leg is unlikely to have any bearing on this one.

I think I

would fancy City

to go through, but I would not write Real Madrid off at all.

Obviously, going back to De Bruyne and Walker, if those two are back in,

the game last season, the Etihad was actually probably one of the best atmospheres that you've had at the Etiad, maybe even slightly better than Hamburg in the whatever it was, the Europa League back then, Eurofa Cup, when Kaiseno scored and we lost and still went out, which was a shame.

But it's going to be rocking at City next week.

And these are

the Etiad atmosphere is generally quite average in Premier League games.

But a couple of times a season, it gets quite lively.

And next week will be the same as it was last week, uh, last season at the Eti Admin.

We absolutely ripped them apart.

And I think if you do get De Bruyne back in, you get

Walker especially, that will nullify a lot of the threat that Realm could have.

So I'd be very confident at this stage.

Yeah, the other thing, sorry, the other thing I was going to say was

it feels like

the first leg, and therefore, maybe the pattern is not the same as last year.

But I don't know about you, but last year watching the game, I felt like it was a draw because City wanted it to be a draw.

So last year was a draw where City felt, even at the Burnaby, City were completely in patrol.

And it's like they'd said, right, we're not going to allow Realm to do anything.

But if you look at the numbers last year, the statistics, I think I was talking to a colleague last night who said in the first half last year, Realmjood completely in the Burnabel game, not in the second one when City destroyed them, even in the Burnabel game, Realmjud had only completed, I think, 25 passes in City's half in the first half of last year.

You know, every other minute, it's taken them two minutes to complete a pass in the other team's half.

Because City is like, right, we kill this game and then we go there because we are better them.

Yesterday was a game where it didn't feel quite so much like City had as much control.

It does feel like we saw evidence yesterday that brown jug could hurt city which i don't think we saw last year in the first leg although as will says you know the fact that walk will be back and that was really clear last night and that de Bruyne will be back and it's hard to imagine Haaland playing as badly again and then Sharmeni getting in a yellow card as well which might have an impact although

um millitow will probably be back for then so they they they should have milletow with um uh my mind's gone blank who's the other centre back rudiger who was the centre back rudiger thank you sorry yeah we've just been talking about him for half an hour um millitow with rudiger and Cano Vinger Midfield.

Good stuff.

Hey, thanks, Sid.

You can go away now.

Thank you.

Cheerio.

Sid low there out in Spain.

Part two, we'll do Arsenal Bay.

Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly, Arsenal 2 by Munich 2.

Another really good game.

Nikki, how was it for you?

It was really entertaining watch.

stressful watch as a as a fan obviously but I

yeah I feel like just picking up on what was Sid was saying at the end of the last part about how City when they went um

last year away to Madrid they were in control and whereas this time it felt a bit less control I just felt like we watched four teams last night where there was no control I feel like there were two games of football in which no one it was it was brilliant chaos everywhere um which was um really sort of fun to watch if not always again from a supporter's perspective sometimes not what you're hoping to watch um arsenal i think

almost if anything it felt like arsenal were were given too much confidence by how easily saka scored at the beginning because it was such a brilliant goal but it was also one of those goals that saka being an exceptional footballer makes look ridiculously easy even though it isn't and then and you're seeing Eric Dyer in the middle of the penalty box backing off and you're thinking okay this this this should go well and then minutes later and this is what Arteta calls the key moment of the game and Ben White has that chance to make a a tune.

And I think a lot of people watching with Arsenal glasses probably thought, okay, this is going to go well now.

And then Bayern Munich shows everything that they're capable of.

I think Bayern have been on such a bad run recently.

There was perhaps a tiny bit of presumption.

I often think, if I'm honest, that Premier League teams can be guilty of a bit of presumption in European knockout stages.

I think that's...

part of why it took City a while to figure it out in Europe was they were so dominant domestically and then they took them a while to apply that in Europe because you can't have that approach and I think it was a sharp reminder in that first half for Arsenal of quite how good Bayern's attacking talents are because I mean it was 2-1 but easily could have been more with the way they were letting Sunny in particular run free and that exceptional running tracking back by Ben White to catch him to stop 3-1 was one key moment and then obviously there was a whole separate conversation to be had about a penalty that wasn't given in the second half.

Yeah, we'll get to those.

Baz, Baz, I mean, that was, it was interesting, given how bad in our minds Bayern have been this season and how defensively tight.

We've seen Arsenal be absolutely brilliant for the last few months.

I thought Sane was so good and sort of ripped.

I mean, rip them apart might be.

I think that's probably accurate at times.

I think it is completely fair to say that.

TNT,

Ponder Trade were very, or Commentary team were very perplexed at his removal, but it seemed he'd picked up some sort of niggle because Thomas Tuchel kept sort of checking, are you okay?

Are you okay?

And then he took him off.

But I must say, I raised an eyebrow when I saw the Arsenal team selection.

Arteta made two changes from the Brighton game, both of them on the left side.

Jacob Kirior came in for Zinchenko, had a mayor,

Sanne just ran him ragged.

And

who's the other one?

Martinelli came in for Trossard and he struggled to impose himself on the game.

And I think Arsenal kind of got away with this one because compared to how good we've seen them be in recent times quite a few players made it errors you wouldn't expect

David Raya Salaba Gabriel thought Declan Rice had a very very poor game and these presumably are the games he was

brought in to help them win but we'll you know we'll give him one bad day

But Leon Goretzka really took him to school.

I thought he was outstanding in the Bayern midfield.

And Saka and Odegaard were really, really good down the right for Arsenal.

And

that helped them, obviously.

But

I think both teams would be happy enough with this result because it's a game both of them could have lost and possibly lost quite heavily.

That was just the sort of surprising bit of it.

There's been so much conversation recently, obviously going away to City and getting that draw, which was a very deliberate, we're just going to go there and get what we want.

I'm not going to make it exciting, but we'll get what we want.

And then you follow that up by going to Brighton, which is again a team that could score goals and give you another clean sheet.

And it's all been about how defensively excellent Arsenal have been, how good they are out of possession.

And there was none of that.

There was none of that.

They look completely out of control, out of possession in this game.

Yeah, it's worth mentioning that when Gabrielle makes that mistake, because Raya's run out of his goal for no reason.

And the pass from Sane to Goretzka is just inch.

Like, it's inch perfect.

It's an amazing pass.

And his touch touch to Gnabri is brilliant for the goal.

We need to talk, well, about Harry Kane, obviously.

He's standing over that penalty.

And I don't think he's ever done that penalty before.

Like, what a moment to decide to add a stutter.

I mean, sometimes in football, fate does intervene.

And obviously, all the hype about a legend returning to North London and having an impact in a big moment.

And Serge Nabri did that.

But in addition to that, Harry Kane.

Yeah, I hate those penalties.

I think they should be banned.

But

they're very, very effective, aren't they?

It was just a, yeah, he's a man that goes in, hits it as hard as he can into the bottom corners generally.

And so I was very surprised when he had that little stutter little moment.

The eyes had done him.

Ray was, you know, past his right post by that point.

It was a cracking moment for him.

It's always amazing in whatever talents you have as a professional footballer, just the actual calmness within 60,000 people who hate you for many reasons, Harry Kane many reasons not just for that individual moment for most of your back career apart from playing for England maybe for always scoring penalties against us for one thing well exactly because they know what this they know the celebration is coming it's a great classic celebration but yeah

that's why people pay a hundred million pound for strikers because you're so cool calm and collected and whatever struggles buying are having this season harry kane is not one of them

i know he's yeah the price tag has sort of put a lot of focus onto him and whether he's the great disruptor at buying, but he's doing very well individually.

And

it's very interesting to see how easily he's adapted when you never know with these things.

But to come back to Arsenal and to not stick two fingers up, maybe, but to take a little rice mile away when you score that goal to make it to you, well, it must be quite nice for him.

He was a very lucky boy not to be sent off.

Very lucky.

That elbow, strong elbow into the throat/slash jaw of Gabriel, he knew what he was doing.

He had a little look, as Harry tends to do, and then was reversing back, caught him very deliberately.

And I think he was incredibly lucky not to get a red card.

He did, I mean, obviously.

Actually, speaking of cards, I think maybe that might have been the reason for Rice's poor performance.

He was a yellow away from a suspension.

That might have been on his mind.

Yeah.

I mean, I'd agree with you on Kane.

I also think when he went to buy Munich, Nico, we thought, okay, he will be amazing with Musiala and Nabri and Komen and Sarne.

And that's what it looked like.

Like, it was off classic dropping deep, playing these perfect passes.

Like, yes, he elbowed someone.

He is the England captain.

So obviously he would never do something like that.

He's not that kind of player.

But he was so, like, just the way he plays that role is wonderful.

So very much that kind of player.

I think it was.

really interesting from the Bayern perspective.

It'd be fascinating to have on someone who watches them every week.

But my impression

is that they don't get the opportunity to play like this in the Bundesliga all that often because they're a team that plays with the ball most of the time in the Bundesliga.

They're normally the

overdog, I suppose, the team that's expected to dictate the play.

And it just felt like here...

because they didn't get to hold the ball because Arsenal did have 60% of possession it actually allowed them to tap into a way that they can play extremely effectively because Kane is very good at holding the ball up and dropping it deep and allowing the runners to move past him.

And they have got some extraordinary runners.

Sane, again, we've talked about what you just said, Miss Yala Ganabri, who, by the way, scores every time he comes to London.

I think at this point, someone, one of the London clubs really should be looking at that and going, hang on, every time he's in London, he bags a hat for because it was, what, four against Tottenham, two against Chelsea.

And maybe just connect those dots.

But yeah, they're a team actually that in terms of what it has in its toolkit, is built very effectively to play on the counter and doesn't get the opportunity to do it very often and perhaps that is a learning point that michel arteta needs to take for the second leg is you can't let this team play that kind of football against you because they've got great great players to do it um at 2-1 there's this incident that

i certainly didn't see it during the game i mean i had the rail madrid city commons but from what i understand the the you know the the tnt guys didn't pick it up that's no no blame on them for that we didn't pick it up i think a lot of people missed it until Tuchel afterwards talked about it.

Where the ref blows

for the goal kick to be taken.

Rhea kicks it to Gabrielle, who just picks it up.

And

that is definitely a penalty, Will, isn't it?

I mean, for comedy value at least.

Yes,

it would have been hilarious.

Yeah,

don't pick up the ball in the box after the whistle's blown and it's from a goal kick is a good bit of advice for professional football.

I mean, it's one of those quirks of a catastrophic mistake, even though it looks very, very innocent.

You are a professional footballer, you generally know what happens at goal kicks.

And

I'd feel a little bit bad for Gabriel, but I would have laughed for quite a while.

And Kane would have scored.

I mean, apparently, the ref told Byron's players, look, it's a school, a child's error.

I'm not giving a penalty in a Champions League court

for that.

As Thomas Tuchel rightfully pointed out, you can't start judging hand balls on an existential level when they're that blatant.

But it is interesting that it wasn't shown.

Because, now,

you can tell me this, Max.

Does everyone get the same feed?

Because TNT, anytime there was a goal in Madrid, which was quite often, they'd swoosh over there.

go big on that to show the goal.

And I did notice that this incident happened pretty much around the same time as Phil Foden's goal went in.

So they may well have been showing Phil Foden's goal and have miniaturized the game they were supposed to be showing.

And maybe that's why we didn't notice.

Or maybe it just wasn't broadcast.

They were showing something else.

But

does everyone get the exact same feed?

Like on OP or Stan, do you go to goals in the other game as they happen?

So we did go to goals in the other game, but obviously

we were leading with the City Real Madrid game.

So if it happened when Phil Foden scored, we were all there going, wow, Phil Foden scored a goal.

And in your corner of your eye, you've got just a goal kick being taken for Arsenal.

So you're not going to notice that.

So

I don't know what people who had Arsenal on their big telly in Australia were seeing.

They were probably seeing Phil Foden score as well.

So that's sort of an interesting quirk of timing.

But yeah, like

Tukal is totally right.

I mean, it's hilarious to go,

this error is so much.

It's like a kid.

It's like,

what happens if you, like, if you pick the ball up and pop it with a pin?

Is that a kid's?

That's sort of Dennis the Men is a bit kids, so it's not a foul, Nikki?

Yeah, I mean, I think the thing with the Tuchel comment is we have to remind this is Tuchel's accounting of it, and the referee may have used words, and especially with different languages being used that we don't know for certain what he said.

So I've seen some Arsenal fans bring this up, so I'm going to quote it.

And for the record, I think it's...

a stonewall penalty and I think it shouldn't even be a conversation but there is this line in the ifab law five decisions of the referee section two decisions will be made to the best of the referee's ability according to the laws of the game and the and we get a little quote marks here spirit of the game and will be based on the opinion of the referee who has a discretion to take appropriate action within the framework of the laws of the game so i think what the referee could argue if this was put to him and the referee hasn't spoken about it so we don't know is look in the spirit of the game i don't think that was a penalty that that that makes sense now I would say I think that's perhaps something you could say if it was in fact a kids game in the park.

You say, you know what, they're kids playing in a park it's spirit of the game that's not a penalty let's carry on in a champions league game i i think you have to say these professional footballers and they should play to the whistles i i think it's i think it's a stonewall penalty i didn't see it until afterwards either because i was watching on tnt and in fact it was very clear because they'd done two rounds of post-game interviews and interviewed harry kane and mika arteta without mentioning it at all and then they interviewed tuchel it was very clear nobody at tnt had seen it until tuchel mentioned it then they found the replay and everyone um came to the same conclusion.

It's a penalty.

To be fair, when I take my daughter to toddlers' football on a Saturday, if she shoots and it's going wide, we just pick up the net and move it because that's in the spirit of the game.

That's what kids need.

So maybe that's something else they can consider for the Champions League.

It was going a little bit wide and they were trying to score, just move the net a little bit.

What would happen if Gabrielle started drawing on the goalposts with crayon?

Is that again, you know, does he get exemption?

Because

you know, it's vandalism, but, you know, it's a kid's, a kid's mistake.

Yeah.

Just starts playing it.

You know, just a few kids just wander off because they're just a bit bored.

You know,

everyone just following the ball.

Yeah, rare conceits is just hanging on the crossbar, messing about, not paying attention.

Tell the spirit of the game, that's disallowed, lads.

Come on, play it.

Back to the game, Nikki.

The equaliser, Arteta brings on Jesus and Drosser.

They combine brilliantly.

And Jesus is so good for this goal.

Yeah, a few really important substitutions for Arteta.

Obviously, Max already mentioned that QBO was having a really tough first half.

Zinchenko came on.

Wasn't perfect, but definitely seemed like that dynamic improved.

And Jesus, I mean, his footwork on this is outrageous.

It's one of those moments that

you see him produce because, again,

he's got that in his locker.

He's got those little quick feet and an ability to navigate tight spaces, but it's brilliant footwork and a well-taken goal from Trossard.

And

a real sort of

game of momentum.

There were times when it looked like Bayern were going to score again at 2-1 and get on top.

There were times that the start of the game looked like Arsenal could score more than one.

And then at the end of the game, it felt like that goal could easily have led to Arsenal getting the win.

And of course, there was then another penalty conversation to have.

Well, let's have it.

Simon says, was it a penalty, Barry?

If you look at Neuer, it is.

If you look at Saka, it isn't.

What do you think?

I don't know, is the answer.

I'm surprised it wasn't given, but I can see why it wasn't given because Saka was clearly

looking for it.

That sort of irrelevant because either he was fouled or he wasn't.

I don't think he was, but

I'm open to being convinced that he was.

I mean, I've seen people on social media analyzed to this to an excruciating degree,

you know, talking about someone sent me an email, you know,

pointing out some sort of optical illusion and analyzing the arc of Saka's leg

look he was looking for a penalty I wouldn't have been a bit surprised if he got one and

I yeah I could see why he didn't it's interesting Will it the more I watch it so when I first saw it I was like look Saka just kicks Neuer right that's what's happened here this is a foul to buy Munich the more and more I watch it the more that I see Neuer is is mo is, you know, he isn't just standing his ground.

He's slightly moving that way.

I mean, I don't think it's a penalty, but I can, I reckon if I watched it another thousand times, I would think it was a penalty.

And I don't want to do that.

It's interesting that it's one of those where, in terms of VAR, if it was given on field, it would stay on field and they wouldn't overturn it.

But I actually think it's very good backing of the referee because the referee thinks, I actually think he's dangled a leg there and he's tried to win that penalty deliberately.

Obviously, you probably try and win most penalties deliberately, and that's what he's done.

And so, video referees had a look at it and gone, yeah, that could be tipped with that way.

I wouldn't change your decision on that.

And that's the case.

It's good refereeing, works quite well as a system.

It's not given as a penalty.

If it had been given, we'd be like, fine, yeah, understand it.

But it just seems like good officiating that it's not been reviewed to the, you know, every minute detail for the next 10 minutes.

It's the 90, was it the 95th minute?

Or was it You know, very late on.

And so, yeah, I'm very happy with it not being given.

If it had been given, we would have talked about it the other way and go, yeah, fair enough.

But good officiating, more of that in VAR, because if I'd had to, I was at Wolves v West Ham at the moment.

Yeah.

Watching the official run over to the screen in the what, probably about 101st minute at that point, and then give it a good look as he ruined my match report before I ruined it myself.

Yeah,

it's that sort of level of over-reviewing really irks me this week.

So well done to the referee at the Emirates and his officials, wherever they are in UA for Stockley Park.

Well, far be it from me to promote lazy nationalist stereotypes on this podcast, but the on-field refereeing team were Swedish and the VAR dudes were Dutch.

And I suspect by that stage of the game, they were both stoned and watching pornography

and

no longer paying any attention to the game.

We have no Dutch correspondent, Lars is the closest we've got, but any criticism to at B Glen Denning.

No, before the lawyers are called out, I don't think that's for a second, I just thought, but it's quite a funny thing to

scenario that played out in my head.

Consider it.

You put it in your minute by minute as well, Buzz.

Hang Hang on, but it's very hard for the...

It's very...

So who was on the field?

Swedish or Dutch?

Swedish on the field, Dutch in, in, in...

How on earth on the field are they going...

Like, that is hard.

Like, fair enough, it's probably quite easy to get stoned while you're doing the VAR, right?

Hard to watch pornography while you are actively refereeing a football match, I would say.

No, no, I'm promoting a lazy...

stereotype about the Dutch.

Ah, I see.

Oh, not the Swedish.

Oh, of course.

Okay,

the Swedish were innocent and all all this.

Oh,

in which case, yeah.

Do carry on.

What are the Swedish stereotypes?

Well, I mean, that's in my mind, they were watching the pornography.

I don't know where I got that from.

So that's that shows, I'm sure producer Joel is saying, this is not where this conversation should be going.

Sam says it can't just be me who kept confusing DeLick for Dyer in the Bayern Arsenal game.

I said DeLick looked like Eric Dyer after a spin in the tumble dryer.

My friend spent the rest of the game calling him Eric Dryer.

Feels like a Barry question.

Doesn't feel like a question at all, but it does bring us to tumble dryers after Dan Bardell's debut and carrying a tumble dryer into his garage.

And Paul says there is no way a human can carry a tumble dryer into a garage on their own.

Can it go to VAO?

Definitely can.

I agree.

You definitely.

Wow.

Yep.

No problem.

It's something for the live show, isn't it?

Barry carrying kitchen appliances.

Is that right?

Are they quite light?

My mind, a tumble dryer would be quite heavy.

I've never, you know, obviously, I do a lot of manual labour, Barry, but I've I've never carried a I have single-handedly lifted a washing machine.

Well, I use both hands, but on my own.

Because producer Joel just says a washing machine does have a concrete base and a tumble dryer hasn't and is light.

But you have lifted a washing machine single-handedly.

A tumble dryer is ostensibly a hollow box, so it's awkward, but it's not heavy.

Is this you, Max, trying to follow the natural career progression of Guardian Football Weekly hosts and that you're trying to get the job for World's Strongest Man next?

Well, it's that our Sunday brunch with my career trajectory.

So, what are you going to pick, right?

Nikki, did you have any other thoughts of Arsenal Bayern before we move on?

Not really.

I think that the penalty conversation, just to say that, watching it back, my main thought was, why didn't Sacket make more of an effort not to go down?

It looked like whether it was a penalty or not, it looked like he was looking for a penalty, and I felt like if he'd kept his feet, he probably could have scored.

Very good point.

And that'll do for part two.

Part three, we'll begin with Everton's points deduction.

Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was the new game day, Scratchers, from the California Lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question: Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

A little play can make your day.

Please play responsibly.

Must be 18 years or older to purchase, play, or claim.

Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Paul Watson tweeted:

Everton will feel like that's two points dropped, which was quite funny.

But it won't be funny for Everton fans.

Very shortly after we finished recording, they were handed a further two-point deduction for breaching the Premier League's profit and sustainability rules.

However, owing to a dispute between Everton and the Premier League over stadium interest payments, that's what you will come to this for, I know, the case is unresolved and expected to drag into next season.

The written reasons for the Commission's decision state, here we go, it therefore remains to be determined whether Everton has exceeded the upper loss threshold for any further amount regarding the interest capitalized in FY 21223.

That's financial year for those of you who don't work in financial years.

We accept that this defers the resolution of part of this dispute.

The Commission is acutely aware that there are many stakeholders, to name some, the Premier League, Everton, the Everton fans, all the other Premier League clubs, the public, interested in the speedy determination of these disciplinary proceedings.

Nevertheless, in fairness to the parties in these proceedings, the Commission decided that the issues which remain cannot be dealt with in accordance with the timetable set out in the standard directions.

Those directions introduced last summer dictate that cases should be dealt with before a season ends.

I mean, it does seem completely ridiculous, Barry, that you know,

Luton may stay up, celebrate, and then get relegated, or may get relegated, be sad, and then stay up.

What do they do?

Just wait on the pitch for weeks and weeks and weeks?

It's that's a disgrace.

I mean, I completely tuned out while you were reading that, whatever it was.

Oh, me too.

Yeah, so I don't really know if it sounds fair or not.

But no,

if we don't definitively know who's been relegated and who's staying up at close of

at the final whistle of the final game to end on the final day of the season, then that is just simply not good enough.

But

if Everton are entitled to fight,

we all know the wheels of justice turn very, very slowly.

But it's not good enough.

It really isn't.

Everton say they remain committed to working collaboratively with the Premier League on all matters relating to PSR, but is extremely concerned by the inconsistency of different commissions in respect of points deductions applied.

Will, you promised us hot takes on the auditors.

No one actually seems to have gone and spoken to an auditor about this capitalisation stuff.

So I tracked one down through my sort of lengthy contacts in the world of finance.

You know, it took me a long time to find someone that has done some of the biggest audits this country has.

And the capitalisation argument, they didn't think it was.

So, sorry, sorry, could you explain what the capitalisation argument is before you tell us what's wrong with it?

I'm glad you asked, Merks.

So, capitalisation, essentially, essentially, this falls outside of the PSR because it's investing in infrastructure.

The argument is over whether you're investing in infrastructure prior to getting the planning application approved.

So if you don't have the planning application approved, actually, you can't count this as capitalisation.

And so these costs were incurred before planning application was the planning was approved.

Also come from a long line of planners as well, which is good news for me.

Right, good.

I'm no longer glad you're asked.

So, anyway, so this

so this capital, this set of interest payments, you know, that they're trying to capitalize,

really,

in an accountant's view,

I've spoken to two, and it just doesn't really wash.

It's quite a weak argument in terms of auditing.

And I think the Premier League are questioning this argument quite heavily, and this is where the problem is, is that if you did it at any of a business, it

you know, wouldn't count.

Say the Guardian wanted to put in a new I.T.

system or whatever.

Jacuzzi in the football weekly office.

Yes.

Yeah.

So the planning element you couldn't capitalize, but the actual sort of infrastructure of it, you could is the simple way of doing it.

If that if that's simplified, Max, you keep raising your eyebrows.

Oh, God.

I mean, I just, look, I don't know.

Maybe Nikki's smarter or better at listening than me and Barry.

No.

Is there a Guardian Finance pod?

Can we do that?

But yeah, anyway.

Do you think on Guardian Financial Weekly?

They had to stray into football and start talking about football.

This is not what people come to this for.

This is why none of us got into finance for this reason, talking about football and things that people enjoy.

So anyway, the bottom line is I think this capitalisation argument is going to be a massive struggle for Everton.

And that's why it's really dragging on, because the opinion generally on it.

is it's not a classic auditing argument that others would make in other industries and other audits, and they're really going to struggle to get it over the line again.

I love the debate.

Is this a classic auditing strategy or not?

What's classic?

Is this world-class auditing?

You know, how do you define world-class?

Who's the biggest auditor?

Call us now.

03717.

Back to the football.

I mean, all I can do is wait and see what happens, I'm afraid.

You know,

go and talk to Kieran Maguire.

Not, Will, that your explanation wasn't perfect.

Boomstrong says, Can you mention Jess Fishlock?

Phenomenal achievement of 150 cats and whales reached in today's 6-0 qualifying winning.

Kosovo, of course.

Brilliant work from Jess.

England beat the Republic of Ireland 2-0.

Although the most exciting part is Megan Campbell's long throw for the Republic, which we have just all seen.

Will, it's absolutely sensational.

She's hiding it in from her own half.

It's insane.

I mean, maybe she's just a specialist for throw-ins.

She can't play football.

You know, she's just worked on that for for years it's what a threat i think like chef united have jack robinson but you know also there must be potential that could go even further it's all all you can do in training just see if you can get that extra yard every time and break records it's and it's it's not looping it's proper flat trajectory that's really going to cause you a few problems one of the one or two of those are seasons going to flick in off someone's head you know it's it's going to be marginal gains and the stats xg will be all over that well i'm matte like you know, a long throw is, I love a long throw so much and always pleased when, you know, Premier League teams bring it out in the championship.

You know, the top three are all doing their best not to get over the line.

At the end of all being brilliant.

Leicester lost at Millwall.

Damn you, Neil Harris.

Leeds held at Sunderland.

So that means that Leicester top on 88 points.

Leeds, 87, have played a game more.

And Ipswich on 87.

So great night for Ipswich.

Thank you to Carlisle for winning at Cheltenham

at the bottom of League One.

That helps us.

Chris says, this week I learned that Cameron Jerome now plays for Bolton.

Did Barry know this?

No, Barry did not.

I just presumed he'd retired by now.

So yeah, fair play to him.

Still going.

Bolton are flying high, aren't they?

Yeah, they're doing very well.

Yeah, well done, Cameron.

I agree with you.

I would have gone five years ago if you'd asked me when he retired.

I'd say about that long ago.

So, you know, good for him.

Rob says, will this panel contribute to Wilson's Spring Watch?

Yeah.

As As always, more of you were interested in the magpie and the cat than anything we talked about in football.

I remain appalled.

I didn't mention it at the time, but I'm not a particularly superstitious man, but the one superstition I do have is that if I ever see

a solitary magpie, I either salute it, or if there's no one around me, I say...

Good morning, Mr.

Magpie, or good evening, Mr.

Magpie, whatever time of day it is.

And Wilson didn't do any such thing.

and no wonder he gets attacked by crows out jogging why would you why would you only say hello mr.

Magpie if you weren't in in company embarrassment or is that not how the superstition works well I I have very little shame left but if

um

yeah I just think people might find it odd if they saw some random bloke greeting a magpie out loud.

I had no idea.

And what happens to you?

It's just bad luck?

Any specific specific amount of time of bad luck?

One, you know, one for sorrow, two for joy, three for a girl, four for a boy.

So if you see one, it's bad luck.

But if you can cancel out the bad luck by greeting it.

I see.

Okay.

I mean,

there used to be a jockey called Andrew Thornton, and he was incredibly superstitious.

So even if he was in the middle of riding the Grand National and he saw a magpie, he'd give it a little wave.

Did he ever win the Grand National?

It's a good question.

He lost it by a nose once.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

This is from Oral, if I've pronounced that correctly, A-U-R-E-L.

I'm Max Norall, reaching out to you with the latest episode of a Football Weekly dream, which has been on my mind a lot.

In my dream, I had my first day on the job as producer of the podcast.

After the recording, Max told me to sack Jonathan Liu for not laughing enthusiastically enough at one of his jokes.

I tried to explain that I would rather not take on this task on my first day at work, whereupon Max fired me himself

in a rather loud and explicit manner, and my dreams sadly ended.

After this brief stint on the Guardian Football Weekly team, I honestly worry about the working atmosphere at the Guardian.

I have doubts as to whether Max's nice guy image is just an act after all.

Keep up the good work.

All the best to Jonathan Liu in his job search.

Luckily, there are no shortage of football podcasts.

Well, no, I mean, it's not for me to say, you know, if this nice guy shtick is all a front.

But, you know, I don't believe I have the power to just go, you're fired.

I haven't tried it, though.

There was a reason you were sent to Australia, though, Max.

No,

you can't be in the same room as any of the panelists anymore.

It's a very good point.

Anyway, thank you all for listening.

None of you are fired, and none of you are fired.

Thank you, Nikki.

Thanks.

Glad I laughed enough today.

That's all right.

Thanks, Will.

Max.

Tears, Baz.

Thank you.

Bubble Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

This is The Guardian.