FA Cup replay drama and the plight of Reading – Football Weekly Extra

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Week Clear, a week of Premier League clubs annoyed about FA Cup replays stopping them going to Dubai over the winter break.

The biggest upset at Ashton Gate, where Bristol City beat West Ham, is the Hammers season in danger of derailing after a couple of significant injuries.

Wonderful to see the man who scored the winning penalty at the World Cup final being absolutely Baltic in Blackpool.

But Montellum Friends did just enough to win for Forest.

Plus, we'll touch on wins for Wolves, Everton, and Luton, amongst others.

Then there's a Premier League preview.

Arsenal needs to get back on the horse at home to Palace.

Ivan Tony returns to Brentford, but for how long?

Also, today we'll speak to a Reading fan about on-pitch protests against their owners.

All that plus your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

James says, with no disrespect intended to any other pod contributors, is this the friendliest lineup possible?

Get Archie on the sofa a full house of the nicest people in football.

Is it too friendly?

Are they too nice?

Is this like Gareth Southgate?

Ben Fisher, welcome.

Thanks, Max.

Yeah, I might try and...

Maybe I'll try and unleash my mean streak.

Let's see how it goes.

I should hope so.

Robin Cowan, hello.

Morning, Matt.

Yeah, I think we'd get beaten pretty easily, wouldn't we?

You think we'd lay down, we'd win, Roy Keene would be talking about they need they need someone, a midfield general that's a bit, yeah, a bit more edged than us, probably.

Wow, wow, a rise to Troy Townsend, senior senior MBE, MBE.

You've got a bit of spice about having you, Troy.

You get stuck in, yeah, but not at this time in the morning.

That's the only problem.

So, uh, I normally do it late afternoon.

Do you know what?

I like having a nice time.

I mean,

so

let's all be friends.

That's great.

uh let's start at ashton gate bristol city one west ham nil ben

it's brian tinian again it's you know it's what a moment for you yeah no it was great great night and it does feel like i mean liam manning the the head coach manager said afterwards that it was the kind of night that just shows you what could happen here what is the sort of club is capable of he said about the energy the atmosphere and it did feel a bit like that i mean a few years ago uh 2017

uh had that amazing run in the carabail cup beat man united jose mourinho is is Manchester United, got to the semis, played Man City over two legs, and kind of felt a little bit kind of deja vu, really, in terms of you know, an upset at home against

one of the bigger teams.

David Moyes seemed kind of reluctant to call it an upset, given you know, City R in the championship, they're not sort of some league two, no hopers.

But,

yeah, no, a really good night, and a great story, really, because the goal very early on was sort of made in Bristol.

Max O'Leary, the goalkeeper, come through the academy.

Pamerz.

Pamares passed it to...

I'm trying to think of someone else famous from Bristol.

Martin Parr, and now I'm out.

Oh,

the guy who did the little animated Nick Park.

He, you know, yeah.

Yes, he laid a nations.

Yeah.

Very close to me, actually.

Yeah, no, and Max O'Leary's clearance went and sort of ended up at Tommy Conway because Mavra Panos made a horrendous mistake, short, undercooked a backpass for the goalkeeper, Fabianski.

And Tommy Conway, again, who's been with the club since the age of seven, he nipped in and showed a really sort of cool head, great finish.

I really like him, actually.

I mean, he's still 21, but

he's having a really good season again after a bit of a slow start.

And yeah, a great night for the club.

I mean, there's a couple of interesting challenges in there.

And maybe on another day with the advent of sort of VAR, if that was involved in the game, maybe there could have been a couple more red cards.

Obviously, Ben Rama was sent off for a just pure petulant sort of thrust into Joe Williams's nether parts.

But yeah, no, a really good night for the club, and now they'll play Forrest at home as well in the next round, so another opportunity to create an upset.

I think I heard, Ben, that Bristol is the biggest city in the UK or in England and Wales that's never had a side in the Premier League.

Is that correct?

Are you ready for it?

Is it about to happen?

Well, it's one of those place clubs which, not so long ago, it seemed that Bristol City was seen as on a par with Brighton, certainly Brentford, really, really, in terms of

the model and where they're going and the plans for the stadium and all the rest of it.

They've obviously renovated Ashton Gate.

I think the kind of Premier League club in waiting thing has been thrown around for probably far too many years now.

They need to kind of just bridge that gap to get into the playoffs.

I think that, you know, obviously the top two is sewn up, but it could be them.

But then there's probably about 10, 11, 12 clubs in the championship who fancy themselves as that club this season.

So yeah, but it's really impressive.

The training ground's really, really sleek and what they've done with ashton gate i think is quite quite smart so it does feel like if it was to take off it would be be a great great um great story i mean i spent most of the time worrying that pamiers isn't from bristol but anyway look we'll worry about that at some other time for west ham robin look you don't want to go out to a lower league side they've got injuries pakotar as well you know it's huge kudos is away at afcon but you know they're doing well in europe they're doing well in the premier league they're probably they're probably okay you know, it's not a disaster.

Yeah, they're sixth in the Premier League.

And yet, there always is this kind of cloud over David Moyes saying, is he under pressure?

As you say, it's not great to go out to a lower league side.

And I feel like he does it quite a lot, David Moyes.

I remember doing a game a few years back when he was at West Ham the first time and they lost to Wigan.

I'm not sure he cares much about the FA Cup.

But as you said, a lot to look forward to.

But yeah, he seems to be perennially under pressure.

There is a worry, though, as you said, that front three are missing, no Bowen.

And Ings, Ben Rama, who obviously won't be available now, and Cornet, no goals between them this season.

Obviously, they haven't played a lot, but they didn't look great, did they?

So that's a slight concern, I'd say.

I suppose that's the interesting thing, Troy, isn't it?

If you don't rotate your side ever,

and

David Moyes doesn't, if you don't rotate your attacking players, then they just, they are going to be rusty, right?

Not quite sure you can label Rusty against against Matt Silkornet.

He looked like he just didn't want to be there full stop.

It was

remarkable performance from him.

I get what Robin's saying about, you know,

they'll be all right, Sith and the European competition.

But tell me, a fan, particularly of a club that has a little bit of history that doesn't want to get through to the latter stages of the FA Cup.

It's not very friendly to take on Robin like that.

You want to just

steal, yeah, Yeah, exactly.

Let's get it going early doors.

So I think them West Ham fans will be massively, massively disappointed again.

Whatever lineup, you know, you look at the defence, you look at their midfield, there's enough there to go and take on that game and potentially win it.

But I don't want to disrespect Bristol City because, again, it was, you know, the atmosphere, the performance, everything that they did, how they approached the game, the tempo, the shutting down.

was everything was excellent you know the press everything was excellent so you know credit it's probably not a time to

douse down on West Ham.

It's probably a time to lord Bristol City.

And I've followed young Tommy Conway's career ever since I did one of my sermons at Bristol City a few years ago.

And

we are in touch.

And it's just lovely to see, you know, a young lad like that who's dedicated his career to trying to play for his, is, you know, to trying to get up the ladder for his hometown club, score a goal like that in such an important game.

And it was a really good goal as well.

So, yeah, applaudits to Bristol City and West Ham for David Moyes.

You know, he's got the

trying to get back in Europe and trying to win Europe.

So, give him the plaudits there.

Um, Robin is an Oxford United fan.

Were you delighted for Liam Manning?

Still hurts, Max.

No, I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say I was delighted.

Um, I think I'm getting there, getting there to try and be pleased for him, but no, no, it's still, you know,

I'm still a woman spurned.

No, yeah, I understand, but they'll be okay one day.

Yeah, I just, it's still, it's, it's so petty, but wanting to see him not do well is, I can't help it.

I can't help it, but but they deserved it.

They really did.

But as as Ben alluded to there,

I mean, some of the tackles, I mean, they were up for this.

And then obviously, we obviously need to mention Ben Rama's

sending off, don't we?

Did some do a similar thing?

You know, that sort of you're on the floor and you push up with the studs.

I'm not sure how he thought he was going to get away with that.

Do you think, though, if you've just been fouled, like there should be a sort of five-second, if you do something stupid in five seconds, everyone can just say, unless you like properly

decapitate them.

Because it is, it is sort of annoying, you know,

you're annoyed.

You've been kicked over, Ben.

Moyes did say actually, interestingly, Max, maybe on the back of that afterwards, that he felt the referee should have intervened quicker on the back of that initial contact between

Williams and Ben Rama to prevent any kind of afters from developing.

I mean, whether in theory that it's actually feasible or possible feels wishful thinking.

But credit to Moyes actually, after I thought he sort of took defeat on the chin, I think he only really said what he said about, you know, if there was VAR and, you know, maybe some of the challenges were a bit tasty because he was kind of prompted by journalists.

I don't think he actually came in sort of looking for that line at all.

So, yeah, credit to him.

If only Kim Milton Nielsen had dived onto David Beckham before he kicked out, was it Diego Simeone?

Could all be so different.

Diego Simeone.

Couldn't it?

Taking a bullet like a vonguard.

Exactly, yeah, exactly.

Pam Ayers, born in Stanford in the Vale, in Oxfordshire.

My apologies.

I just couldn't think of anyone famous from Bristol.

Speaking of Bristol, Bristol Rovers lost 3-1 at home to Norwich.

They did take the lead.

But James writes, long-term listener, big fan here, Max's reference to Bristol's cup win

in yesterday's pod was surely a smart-ass joke intended to wind up us gas heads.

It's bad enough that we have to put up with various reds on the panel.

And I know we have only just sacked the idiot who shall not be named.

But come on, I'm 20 minutes into the episode.

I haven't listened to a word.

Trying to find the email address while Al angrily stood at the station on the way home for the big game tonight.

Max should be forced to say 50 Devon Whites as penance regards James Wright.

Look.

I mean, maybe there is an ushering in of a new agenda for the pod, the anti-Bristol Rovers agenda.

I'm so sorry.

I didn't even know I did it.

If I can throw anyone under the bus, it is Torda Force, Asasu Obayuana, who, if you listen to yesterday's pod, I was just trying to say something.

I was just trying to get a word in.

And so I just shouted Bristol at the right time.

But those of you who loved Asasu, we will get him back on.

But yes, my heartfelt apologies to the Bristol Rovers fans.

Also, last night, Blackpool almost beat Nottingham Forest, didn't they?

Matty says, do you think Blackpool gritted the pitch before the game tonight?

Sanny, our mate, Sanny Redra Vajida, sent a brilliant tweet saying, look, the man who scored the winning penalty in the World World Cup final is now freezing his bollocks off in blackpool as it hits zero degrees must be hard must be hard Troy if you've won the World Cup you've scored the

penalty that wins the World Cup you know I know when you cross that white line everything goes out of your head but it was freezing there

it's as freezing there as what it is in here this morning I tell you

listen yeah you've you've obviously you've reached a pinnacle when you've done that and then you play for Nottenham Forest so look he's had his moment in time

You've got to approach those games in the manner as they are, FA Cup finals, World Cup finals, or anything like that.

And, you know, that Forest side were put under tremendous amount of pressure.

I really enjoyed that second half yesterday.

Really enjoyed it because Blackpool.

Listen, it was an all-right game first half.

I wasn't really invested in it, but I knew that I had to do the pod, so I had to watch it and have it in the background.

But the second half was, you know, from once they gave the second goal away through trying to play about round the back,

they absolutely pummeled Nottingham Forest and, you know, 10 minutes stoppage time, which was basically eating into all the extra time they had.

I think

they were really disappointed that the whistle went at the end of, well, 100 minutes because they were so on top and their performance was everything that, you know.

that their fans deserved after coming back and playing at Forest.

So, no, it was a really good game, really cold atmosphere.

I'll let the other guys delve into it a little bit more.

You might find that a lot with me today, Max.

I mean, I think the FA Cup coverage over the last two days has been quite embarrassing considering, you know, you have two live games, but you don't get to watch the other games.

I used to think that the FA Cup was held in such high esteem that no matter who you were a fan of, if you were involved in a replay, then, you know, you were able to watch a little bit of your team in that replay.

So, just like a match of the day, like a highlights show or something?

Yeah, just something.

But it just seems that they're trying to devalue this competition so much now that even the broadcasters don't care.

Let's just get two games on, let everybody watch that, and then we'll show the goal highlights with no commentary, no nothing.

And I'm really disappointed with it.

And I think, yeah, they're treating the FA Cup with a little bit of disdain for me.

Do you think so?

I mean, I sort of feel that

they've spread it out, so there's like a gate, they spread it over like six days, and there's like a game almost like well, look.

Look, yeah, when you say that the initial,

so so obviously when we've got the games coming up now, but like I said, this is a replay weekend, and I know people are, sorry, replay midweek, and I know they'll probably say, well, we didn't have enough space for these games and that, but like

I just think the games have gone to a replay.

We know that they don't like replays, and I think they're proving that they don't like replays because they won't show the replays.

I just think a little highlights package would be nice.

You know, there's a couple of good games in there.

There was a couple of games where maybe there could have been shots.

Bristol Rovers, I'm going to to mention Bristol Rovers, even if you don't.

We'll 1-0 up at Norwich and its potential there.

There's the Luton game, which obviously we'll cover in a little while, which it was too freezing for me to go, by the way.

Walls-Brentford was a really good game.

Eastleigh, Newport, there were some really good games on.

And, you know, just to get a little bit of highlights would have been nice.

See what I could do.

I'm just trying to help that

listener that says, do you know what I mean?

I'm trying to be that guy, Max.

It's nice to know a father's love will only stretch to a certain degree.

I'll be the same.

Might be the same.

No messing about.

I felt so

sorry for Lucy Ward and Sam Matterface because you're thinking, right, 90 minutes in the cold, we'll be fine, done and dusted.

And then it's just, oh, no.

Extra time and another 10 minutes on top of that as well.

Neil Critchley, the Blackpool boss, said with regards to he thought that Christopher's winner might have been offside.

He said, in the first game, we had VAR.

That would have gone to VAR.

You draw lines on the pitch and it might have been offside.

How can you have VAR in in the first and not the second game?

Which means we've gone out.

The integrity of the competition has to be questioned.

It might have gone to penalties and we win, but to not have VAR with the same group of players just playing on a different pitch, I can't see how that can be right.

It is always a coincidence, Ben, that the losing manager wants VAR or doesn't want VAR.

And when there is VAR and it goes against them, the manager doesn't want VAR.

And when there isn't VAR, they do want VAR.

And I just sort of think, I don't, I wouldn't mind if the FA Cup had no VAR.

But like if you can have it and you have it and you don't and you don't, it's the same for both teams on the night.

I don't see what the problem is.

No, I'm with you, really.

I think it's a bit of a painful kind of almost sore loser kind of rhetoric.

Um,

that wanting to sort of keep banging on about David Moyes, he did say the other night he felt it should either be in the competition at every game, every ground, or not at all.

I do see that logic, but I kind of think, as you say, on the night, the both teams are in the same situation.

It's not like, you know, one of the teams has

use of Vietnam and the other doesn't.

I don't see it.

And again, I mean, it's a bit like Nuno was, you know, sort of couldn't hide his total sort of disgust at the thought of playing a replay.

Obviously, then they had to go the distance, as you say, in kind of interesting conditions in Blackpool.

But on the night, they're through, and you know, it's sort of job done.

And suddenly, now you probably won't hear him sort of moaning so much about the replay.

Obviously, it's not ideal preparation for

Brentford.

Oh, no, he said the FA Cup is so, so special after the game yesterday so i mean that is that is rowing back quite some distance i thought it was u-turn so um

yeah i don't know i think um

you know managers who lose games are are naki right that's that's nature of the beast martin tyler was commentating on this game for the international coverage i guess he must love football so much he doesn't need the muck what are they gonna what they why are they chucking him to do that one i mean i don't know if he was in a small box you know near his house or in his house or if he was at the game but you know credit to him for that commitment to football um tomolyney then wolves three brentford two well after extra time and tires kunyas slightly soft penalty gave wolves the was the first time they took the lead in the entire tie um but as you said troy quite a fun game of football why come to me when i've just said to you i haven't watched any wouldn't have been nice if you'd had some highlights to this one

the fa cup's got a youtube channel i can't believe you've done that to me i can't believe you've done that to me that's okay um

By the way, I wanted to add a little bit of value on the VAR conversation.

Oh, add some value.

Here we go.

I'd love you to add some value.

Right.

Because I think you and Ben are both wrong.

I do agree that

how can you something that is

that can define a game?

And I said this a few years ago, probably on a rival pod, which we won't mention, but how can you have something that can obviously...

I didn't know anyone else hired you, Troy, to be honest.

Oh, listen, I wasn't hired.

I begged.

I begged.

I i just don't i don't see how you can have it like like in the league you can't have it for one game and not have it for the next because it's a decision defining um

system

and so

like you just don't bring it into the competition full stop no yeah but then the trick the tricky thing is right that So many teams in this competition aren't set up for VAR.

They just don't have the capability, right?

But then you get to the semifinals and it's or you know, the quarter, the semifinals and it has VAR because Wembley does have it.

Or or the, you know, the big teams are playing the quarterfinals.

I wouldn't mind if it didn't have it.

I just don't think it matters.

I don't think, because it's different.

It does matter.

It does matter.

And

I don't think it's managers whinging either.

I think it's managers who have probably made that point of view before even kicking a ball.

But obviously,

no one talks about it.

And then there's a massive decision that doesn't go their way.

They've got every right to talk about it.

You know, I heard so many commentators on over the weekend when there was coverage saying, you know, it's really good that there's no VAR today.

You know, so the controversy of the system means that it's going to have an effect somewhere along the line.

And that then makes it an unlevel competition for sure.

No?

No.

No.

Ben was going to ask someone.

Yeah, Ben, add some value.

Robin, I need you to back me up here, Robin, somewhere along the line.

No, I'm too nice.

I'm too nice.

I'm staying out of it.

I mean, nobody likes sort of protecting or defending referees.

It's not very in vogue, is it?

But I almost feel a bit of sympathy for the

referees with this as well, in terms of, you know, one game there, they've got Va, all the bells and whistles, and next, suddenly, you're plunged into it, and suddenly they're probably looking for that, you know, where's that helping hand or that assistance?

And it's just not there.

And I don't know how fair that is, really.

And

you would need a referee to tell you, but I think it must be so different refereeing a game with Vav and you know, the Stockley Park kind of assistance and all the rest of it, as opposed to just the old kind of setup of, you know, it's my decision, that's it, and there's no replays, there's no second chances.

So I did feel that a bit the other night at Bristol City West Ham.

I just wonder, you know,

is that fair?

I don't know.

We're talking about the players and the managers and for the teams, but is it fair on the referees?

They get so much stick, but you know, it's difficult enough as it is.

And yet, suddenly they're sort of thrown into this almost like weird world where actually, you know, that big thing that we've been talking about and dealing with all season, that doesn't exist this round, but this weekend, oh, yeah, it's all back.

Does that mean you're creeping onto my side of thinking then, Ben?

Is that I think i've had a second win yeah there you go see i've influenced already max see no it doesn't mean that because you know

if you can't have the ao in this competition then you're saying you can't have the refs that were ref in the premier league reffing in this competition so uh but i but anyway it was all value added wasn't it so like that's great um look luton one two one at bolton um uh nicely tim crew um and uh bolton ranham close didn't they uh andross has signed a uh an extension with luton so he doesn't have to come and stay in your spare room troy so that is uh that's wonderful news.

Birmingham beat Hull 2-1.

Tony Mowbray's first winner's Birmingham manager came back from behind.

I noticed that Billy Sharp plays for Hull.

I didn't know that.

And John Ruddy's still playing for Birmingham.

And look, Newport, Newport's winner, Eastley was huge because...

the winners were going to play Manchester United.

And so that is big.

And Everton won the Andros Townsend Derby

beating Crystal Palace 1-0.

Now, the BBC report said Andre Gomez's free kick was a rare moment of quality.

And I feel like Everton Palace is the most likely game to have a rare moment of quality in that both sides have got some good players, but most of the game will probably be shit.

But there could be a rare moment of quality.

That's not true.

That's not true.

Do you not remember?

Troy, that was two games over two legs.

Can you really

dispute that?

I can't dispute it over those two games.

I must admit.

Yeah, but he's trying to indicate that it's all the time, every single time that Everton played Crystal Palace.

And it's just, it's just not true.

Do you not remember the great comeback, 2-0 down at Goodison Park and 3-2 and vibrant game and loads of good stuff going?

No, you don't remember that one either.

Crystal Palace beating Everton 4-0 in the FA Cup?

No, because

a match that has a rare moment of quality needs to have some quality in it, right?

So there are some games that...

wouldn't even have that.

So it's a sort of backhanded compliment to Crystal Palace and to Everton.

I'm not having that.

Anyway, apparently it was a really poor game, apparently.

So yeah, and

Luton go up to Everton, so it's another Android town Zendargo.

It is.

Will you go to that?

Or you haven't checked the weather?

No, I've got to check the weather first, but it's likely that I will be there.

I will be there.

Newport Man United, Tottenham City, Chelsea Villa, probably the biggest ties of the fourth round.

And we'll cover that when it happens.

And that'll do for part one.

We'll do a Premier League preview in part two.

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Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Now, we didn't do any Wolves Brentford, despite it being a good game because Troy hadn't seen it.

But Ben, there was a good, there was a big moment, a thing that the fans love to see in this game.

Yes, a heartening story, if ever there was one.

A Wolves fan season ticket holder who's an under-12s referee suddenly found himself sort of thrust onto fourth official duties.

I think he volunteered and the assistant referee was injured, so he came down and did a turn as the fourth official

towards the end of the game.

And I like the fact he said that he needed a crash course in how to use the substitutes board, which I just thought was quite an interesting image, really, just to see how that plays out.

And I don't, I felt a bit sorry for him.

He said he was getting bombarded by Brentford staff, which I mean, you would be.

But I think Thomas Frank is probably the last person you want to be sort of bombarded with, really.

He's pretty lively at the best of times.

So I can imagine it got a bit interesting.

But

apparently, he was invited into the referees room afterwards for the usual post-match pleasantries.

So, yeah,

what an occasion.

The guy seasoned took hold of Ross Bennett, and his son was 11-year-old's son, was in the crowd throughout.

So, I'm sure he had a great time at school the next day.

Ross Bennett is a good referee's name, isn't it?

That is such a referee's name, isn't it?

Yeah.

Apparently, he said they don't ask for any credentials.

So, you know, I was just thinking, like, you could really, really take the piss here.

Like, with the, when they see you out to use the board, you just, like, substitute their goalkeeper.

And, like, and then also, he said he couldn't celebrate the Wolves' winner.

And I'm like, well, what?

Just go for it.

Just, you know, chuck it in, chuck the subs board in the air, take your top off, get on the pitch.

I like the idea that he did it in Wolves' kit.

He just had his, you had like an old Steve Bull shirt, you know, with Goodyear on the front and was just like, well, this is, this is just what I went to the game in.

But I like the fact, you know, it is like, is there a pilot on board?

And then someone just sticks their hand up?

You know, exactly.

So who knows?

But it's a good story.

Anyway, look, Arsenal play Palace.

They were top not too long ago.

They're now fourth, five points off Liverpool.

Can't score goals.

It feels crucial, Troy, that they win this game.

I think it's crucial from both sides.

Roy Hodgson's coming in for quite a lot of stick lately and would have done, you know, with the club going out of the FA Cup last night.

And I think for me to Mikel Arteta, they need to get back on track really, really quickly.

It's quite surprising.

For me, it's quite surprising because when they did hit the top, I thought, wow, they're doing it again.

They're showing their worth.

They're proving that they're a really top side.

And I'm not saying that defeats don't mean that you're not a top side.

But from hitting the top, they're now five points behind Liverpool and City are gaining traction as well.

you know, Spurs and Villa are still in and around them.

So it's a pressure game.

It's a game that

they normally win over the last few years, although there has been Palace have gone there a couple of times and Nick to draw and Nick, well, not Nicked, they've drawn and won there.

But I think the fans will feel the pressure as well.

If Palace start well, and I mean in terms of not conceding goals in the first 15 or so minutes, apply a little bit of pressure,

it could be a really difficult fixture.

It's the early one as well, which sometimes throws up some results, doesn't it?

So I think Arteta will be feeling the pressure a little bit just because of the other results that are going on around them and the fact that

they've been knocked off their perch and

are now in the mix really.

And I don't know what's going wrong.

The forward line should have enough about it to put the ball in the back of the net on a consistent basis.

They do create a lot of chances, but players lack confidence at times.

And I think what's happened here is that at the same time, the forward players that Arsenal have are lacking a little bit of confidence.

Saka looks,

I mean,

for a lad that age, the amount of games that he's played and the times that he's kept on the pitch where maybe he does need a breather, I think they need to find a way to give him a little bit of a rest so that

it can spark again somewhere along the line.

So this is an interesting fixture, although I do believe Arsenal will win it just because of,

I don't know, I'm not sure Roy's got long left.

Let's put it that way.

I mean, I hope all the Palace fans come dressed as Salt Bay.

That's what I think.

Yeah.

That would be good.

Oh, he's going to be asked about that today, isn't he?

I can't bear it.

I can't bear it.

He's going to be asked about it in a press conference today, and I actually don't want to hear his answer.

I don't want to hear the question.

It's going to be so awful.

I mean, it can't be as bad as the original video, but yeah.

Oh, I think his position might be untenable.

Wow.

Yeah.

I agree with you.

I enjoyed the instant regret.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Anyway, Brentford Forest, uh, the return of Ivan Tony, uh, Brentford are playing it quite low-key.

They tweeted out a picture saying the return.

And look, Ben, they need an immediate impact from him, don't they?

Yeah, they do.

And I think, you know,

they need him and he needs them.

I mean, I think it's interesting that the messaging in the last couple of weeks is sort of been a bit mixed from Tony.

You know, at first it was very much, you know, I'm very grateful to...

to Brentford, obviously throughout the period, support, all the rest of it.

And then since then, I believe the interview was last week and it sort of aired this week where he's sort of saying, you know, I could move this month.

You know, I want to play for a top club.

I just thought,

I felt a little bit uncomfortable with that.

Maybe he's just stating the truth in reality, but I feel like he does owe it to Brentford to stick out this season kind of regardless.

And I know, you know, Brentford are in a bit of an awkward spot, really, where...

I'm not saying they're going to go down, but they're not as comfortable at this stage as they have been in other years.

So they do very much need somebody to win them games, to score them goals.

And obviously, he's prime candidate for that.

I think it will be really interesting to see what Ivan Tony we see.

Obviously, he's adamant.

He's going to be sort of bigger and better than ever.

And that may well be the case.

He's obviously done loads of work.

He's been scoring endless hat-tricks for the under-23s, under-21s.

But that's obviously a different game.

So, yeah, it'd be interesting what Ivan Tony we see.

And then, obviously, the implications for can he, if he plays well, scores goals, can he then maybe get back in the England fold?

Does he start then?

I think so, yeah.

Yeah, Robin doesn't know they'll throw him in straight away.

I think the position that they're in, they're not they're three points off the relegation zone.

And as Ben was saying, like he, yeah, he's not been injured, he's he's fit, maybe not like Premier League match fit, but he's also, you'll know, Troy, he's immensely confident, isn't he?

He's, you know, no doubting in his own ability.

So

I think they'll, they'll put him in straight away.

Yeah, and actually if they get a penalty you want him on the pitch right like even if you can't move as we established i think a few pods ago perhaps he's just eaten for this whole time and he'll be enormous that's what we're really hoping for um uh sergio region's joined brentford from spurs on loan uh which seems quite sensible given rico henry has been out and rico henry's been a big loss for them um while we're on forest um they've signed 42 players since promotion um and you know along with everton uh the premier league said that both of those sides have each confirmed that they're in breach of the league's profitability and sustainability rules.

That's the Premier League's version of FFP.

It added this is as a result of sustaining losses above the permitted thresholds for the assessment period ending season 22-23, which I think is £105 million.

The clubs now have 14 days to submit their formal responses.

The hearings must be concluded within 12 weeks.

Appeal hearings must be held before the 24th of May.

And it must all be resolved before the 1st of June.

And now that is interesting because that is after the Premier League has finished.

So you could envisage a position where Forrest and Everton have had deductions that may have sent them down and then they

resolve it on the 1st of June and then they stay up again.

I mean, it is an absolute,

it's a total minefield.

You watched the whole

DCMS thing with Richard Masters, Ben, didn't you?

Was it nice and was it fun?

Yes, I treated myself to that on first thing on Tuesday morning.

Richard Masters and Rick Perry, the AFL, chair were there.

I did find it kind of mildly amusing.

They kind of sat there like naughty school children, you know, kind of within inches of each other, but clearly kind of sort of semi-despising each other at the same time.

But they, I think it took about an hour and a half for them until they both admitted, like, okay, we do agree on this point.

You know, there's so much differences of opinion between the two, between the Premier League and the EFL.

I think in terms of the charges, obviously it was put to Richard Masters on Tuesday at the DCMS, you know, okay, fine with Everton and Forest, but what about Man City?

What's going on?

You know, why are they different?

Again, Richard Masters said, you know, you're not comparing like with like.

It's a different set of charges, a different type of charges.

Obviously, we know there's 115 of them.

He says there's a date for that, but

can't share what that is.

But obviously, Forrest and Everton feel particularly hard done by.

In Forrest's case, I'm not sure they can really have too many complaints.

I mean, I get that a lot of it hinges on the sale of Brennan Johnson, which they're saying that because it got later in the window, they were able to recoup a bigger fee to shire 50 million.

If they sold him earlier in the window, it would have been for less.

And they're saying the Premier League were aware of this, and, you know, this was almost good business by then.

This was them trying to act

in the interest of the P and S rules.

But I don't think it is.

They knew the cut-off.

All the clubs knew the cut-off points.

And, you know September is not I think it was the end of June you know and September is not the end of June so

in black and white that that that's quite

quite obvious and I also feel like I spent a lot of time at Leicester last season you know they were relegated in effect I mean you can't you can't say this for sure but obviously they spent zero money basically but barely signed anybody A lot was made of that.

Obviously Rogers was frustrated.

But they were in effect relegated because they were so scared of breaching those rules.

They were so scared to bring bodies in.

Now, if they're playing by the rules, you know, everybody else should as well.

Wolves, as we know, sold a load of players to, you know, adhere to the rules and not fall foul.

Even Villa, to their credit, you know, sold a lot of Academy products this season because, again, for the same reason, Brennan Johnson with being homegrown, you know, when that comes to FFP or PNS, that sort of gold dust, really.

So they sold obviously Archer, Ramsey, and others, homegrown players to get on and sort of balance those numbers.

So I don't have loads of sympathy for Forrest.

The Everton situation, I don't know quite so much about, to be brutally honest.

But

just as a rule, I think all of the clubs knew the cut-off points.

They knew the dates.

That's kind of how it is.

It will be interesting, but yeah, that cut-off date, the 1st of June, is just crazy because it just means that everyone's waiting now.

And it's not just those clubs impacted if they don't get themselves out of trouble.

It'll be the clubs underneath them as well.

Bournemouth, Liverpool, no Salah, No Endo, Trent Alexander Arnold, Sobers Lai, Robertson all out injured.

Do you see them still marching on though, Robin?

I mean, a marching is probably too strong a word for what they're doing, but they are doing incredibly well.

They've only lost one game in the league this season.

Yeah, I mean, I think you know, they will be favourites, but you know, this is a very different Bournemouth side, as we've seen.

They've just lost one in their last nine.

Bournemouth, that was the defeat to Spurs.

So, this is going to be a tough one for Liverpool.

But

even so, as you say, you can't really see them losing it.

They might give up a few chances.

You know, they don't look structurally quite as secure as they sometimes do, but they seem to always find a way.

So, yeah, I'd be quite surprised if they don't win.

But having said that, I've seen quite a lot of Bournemouth this season.

They're really, really good.

So it should be a really good game this one, actually.

And actually, that game they lost at Spurs, they could really easily have won it, couldn't they?

A bit wasteful, weren't they, that day?

Yeah, yeah.

Chef United West Ham, the other game.

Well, there's Brighton Wolves on Monday and Chevy United West Ham at the weekend.

West Ham linked to Calvin Phillips, like everyone else.

Newcastle, Palisar, I think everyone's waiting for the loan fee to go down.

And I guess in terms of minutes on the pitch, it's Calvin Phillips versus Jordan Henderson.

Or do you just think

they'll both go anyway, Ben, to the Euros?

Yeah, my gut feeling is I think they would both go anyway.

I think Southgate already...

I do have a bit of sympathy for him, really, because I think there's actually,

I think it's sort of admirable in a way that he has these guys who he relies on.

They have been pretty,

you know,

impressive and sort of consistent for their country.

You know, Harry Maguire, obviously a lot of people say, oh, you know, he's not a player.

Should he be?

But invariably, you know, all of these guys really have performed for England.

Obviously, Phillips and Henderson kind of probably fall into that bracket.

Neither have really done themselves any favours, obviously the way this season's panned out.

Not all of their own performance.

Obviously, Phillips, you know, Will Philly, he probably deserves to be playing a bit more.

I do really like him.

I think it's a shame what's happened since he's gone to City, because if, you know, why wouldn't you join Man City?

Really?

It was, it was a step up.

It was a good move,

especially, you know, his sort of backstory.

What an incredible journey for him.

But yeah, he needs to play.

But

I think both would go anyway.

Yeah.

On Jordan Henderson, we talked about it a bit yesterday.

Lots have been written about it and what a terrible move it's been for him and his reputation.

Michael says, now that Jordan Henderson's moving to Ajax, how long until he's on Eric Ten Hag's radar?

It's a good question, Ben.

What impact will Jordan Henderson have transforming the game over in the Netherlands?

So anyway, be interesting to see how he gets on at IAX.

And that'll do for part two.

And part three, we'll begin talking about the problems at Reading.

Hi Pod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here too.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Let's talk about Reading then and their ownership under Dai Yong.

An email, we've had loads of emails about it.

David says, Any chance of a proper in-depth analysis of what's happening to Reading FC.

I appreciate that in the football world, we're regarded with general disinterest, but there is an interesting point for the panel to consider about foreign ownership.

The fans feel largely that there's nothing they can do, and the pitch invasion today was a reflection.

The owners based in China appear to have no interest in the club.

Staff have not been paid.

The EFL seems unwilling to solve the problem beyond more fines and points deductions, which just makes the situation worse.

At the very least, please don't make it a throwaway one-liner regards um davids let's talk to neil rees from the fan action group sell before we die um neil thanks so much for your time well thank you very much i don't know if you were were you on the pitch at uh against port vale neil i i wasn't uh our group uh was supposed to go on at the end of the game right uh but as with most fan emotion you you can't control what what uh what happens in real time so uh yeah the the the the fans that went on the pitch did that of their own free will.

And

here we are talking about the results of that.

Yeah.

So in many ways,

because, you know, in fact, I said on the radio the next day, oh, look, we can't condone that.

And Barry actually picked me up and said, well, why not?

Like,

what else can you do?

Like, do you feel, you know, since then, the EFL have released a statement imploring Dai Young to fund the club adequately or make immediate arrangements to sell?

The chief executive, Daiyong Pang of Reading, said, we're still talking to people.

I asked for our fans to be patient.

And he said, Mr.

Dai is 100% willing to sell the clubs.

Do you feel like that was

good that you guys did it?

Yes, ultimately.

The reward is this, is the exposure that we've now got.

Beforehand, you know, we've tried tennis balls, we've tried marching from the town to the stadium,

you know, we've tried numerous things to get to get noticed

for the owner to notice what we're trying to achieve.

And

it's worked to a point,

but we didn't want a pitch invasion.

No one really knew what the outcome would be of a pitch invasion.

But it's come to this, where the story has now gone worldwide.

And

it's now getting some traction where the owner has noticed.

We had a statement yesterday from the club saying that they're looking to dispose of the club at the earliest notice, which is something, but it's just empty words until something happens.

And he's had so many chances to act and hasn't done so on every level, whether it's financial or selling the club.

Give us an idea of, you know, what has happened to the club since he took over.

Oh, wow.

So he's had the club since after our playoff final defeat against Huddersfield in 2017.

Since then, he has

racked up numerous offences,

basic ones you could say of like over over inflating contracts for players not selling players when they were at peak value contracts that were premier league level for some players that that barely deserved it stripping the captaincy from the from the club captain then you start to get into profit and sustainability points deductions.

We've had more points taken off us through Daoyong than any other club has in that time period.

Redundancies,

no catering now.

There's so much, there's so much wrong.

You couldn't make it up.

You couldn't run a football simulator and come up with the amount of stuff that he's managed to foul up.

I suspect as fans, you're just sitting there going,

why buy the thing?

Like, what's the motivation?

People who understand what it's like to

support a club of Reading size.

It's modest, but it's not a tiny club

you know why why would you possibly get involved with it do you think he thought he could make loads of money i think so he he he shot for the for the premier league and didn't get there but he never had a business plan he may be a businessman but he doesn't know how football works he surrounded himself with agents like kyo jarabchin to to get in players, but with no no defined plan at all.

It was just scattergun.

So when he just kept throwing money at it it was just like a you know a kid at christmas you know he just kept going and going and going but didn't think about any consequence neil this is what i don't understand and there is a fit and proper test isn't there whatever that means um from so who do you who do you blame for this do you blame the league for allowing it to happen or do you just blame the owner for like you just said he didn't even have a proper business plan so how can he take over a football club without a proper business plan and how can that be passed by the football league this is one of the big mysteries it's you know the efl acted like uh like an owner of a house he gave the keys to the to the tenant and he just trashed the place and now the efl can't do anything they can't they can't take the club back they they can they can you know give him permission but they can't revoke it so we're kind of stuck with with you know how how did he get in in the first place he's had dealings with other clubs that don't even exist now um

the warning signs were all there, but they were just never really heeded enough.

And I think he just showed that he had enough capital at the time to invest.

But that was before China shut down and started to, you know, totally divest their interest in football across

the world.

So,

you know, we're kind of, you know, gone through a trapdoor now and there's no way back up.

and not in it in an easy tangible sense that we can recognize.

How grave is is the situation?

How worried are you about Reading going ceasing to exist?

Easily, easily.

He already is

at the point where we don't know whether he's going to pay the staff and players month on month.

He's already, you know, he's...

canny to a point where he knows he can pay the players.

We won't get a deduction in points because he's paying the players, but he'll forego paying HMRC

and he'll string that out for as long as possible we've had you know numerous attempts to to wind us up and then he pays the money and you know it's it's just a situation where he he knows that he can do so much but chooses not to anymore his interest is is that little

And so we want him to sell the club when he's barely got an interest in running it as a going concern.

So we've got no faith in him to do what he should be doing.

So yeah, the end of the season could be the last at the moment.

In that statement that you mentioned, uh, uh, Redding said, Mr.

Dyer has agreed that he will look to sell the club at the earliest opportunity.

He's engaged lawyers to assist in the disposal.

As you say, it's the wrong choice of words, isn't it?

Um, the EFL are fully engaged in the process and they are being kept informed on a regular basis, committed to supporting the club in finding the appropriate solutions as quickly as possible.

We ask, in conclusion, for our fans to keep faith in the club and to know that the owners are making every effort to finalise its sale at the earliest opportunity.

In return, the owners commit to communicating substantive developments when they are able to do so.

Robin?

I just wanted to ask Neil, can you remember the sort of feeling around the club, the fans, when he took over all those years ago?

Like, was it sort of a feeling of hope?

And also, just generally, what do you think can be done to sort of prevent this situation happening time and time again for clubs?

Because I actually don't know what could be.

could be done when

especially when sort of certain clubs are in real dire situations and fans are just desperate for anyone, anyone to come in, even if it's someone a bit nefarious or has a bit of a past, because it will save their club.

It's such a tricky thing to sort of unpick.

Yeah, absolutely.

Totally agree.

I think at the start, much like any team that sees players coming through the door, you get excited about that.

You don't think anything

to

the opposite, where you kind of think, hang on, we've got to pay for this at some point or we're going to have to balance this with sales you don't think that way you just think good signings equals better team equals better future but we soon found out that it was just unfounded it just didn't work he did he as i said before he didn't sell players when they had value we've let players go for free that you know are very decent championship players now or even higher it is a cautionary tale that if you do get a bad bad owner, you can't convince them otherwise because we're just fans.

We haven't got a voice.

We haven't got a voice at that level to say, hang on, do you really realize what you're doing here?

What this means to people?

What the heritage is of this club?

And he doesn't, he can't.

And, you know, we do expect these things of owners, but in reality, it doesn't exist.

They are business people.

We value our clubs with our hearts, you know, outside of our pets and our family.

This is us.

This is what we fight for.

And this is why our pressure group exists.

I was just going to say, I do have a sort of tinge of sympathy for the EFL in the sense, Neil, that obviously when he came in, as you say, he spent, I think, upwards of 250, maybe 300 million.

Obviously, the training grounds should be a really incredible facility.

Obviously, as you say, just shop for the moon, you know, spent far too much on players, whether they're the right players, big wages, all the rest of it.

And as you say now, he's just totally checked out.

And obviously to the detriment of the club and the community.

But it's a hard one, isn't it?

Because I think when I've spoken to the EFL before, they've sort of said, you know, good owners can become bad.

And that seemingly, at one point, it wasn't quite so bad when he was sort of plowing money and as you say, sort of trying to achieve the dream, the big dream, the big sort of, you know, Premier League carrot.

And then as soon as that obviously didn't become a possibility and he's like hang on a minute I've spent all of this money and it's not come off and and it's just gone south so so quickly it's

I don't know it's it's a hard one isn't it because as you say I know I know he has the history of dissolving the two clubs one in Belgium one in one in China but

and obviously that they tried to buy whole although I think there's a suggestion that the consortium a couple of the members of that

were part of the reason that that fell down through the Premier League's fit-in proper test.

But even still, so you can, I get it, you can obviously make the argument that, you know, why was this guy anywhere near a football club?

Totally see that.

And I think it's a really valid question.

But he has also spent loads of money, albeit very badly.

And what, you know, what do you do when somebody just loses interest?

Interest totally.

I mean, Wayne's is probably underselling it, isn't it?

Because it's the guy is checked out, as you say, he's having to be sort of coerced into paying regular bills.

And I guess, Neil,

it's an argument for for the regulator, isn't it?

That

now no one has any power to make him sell.

Like, that's up to him, right?

You can, you can pressure him, you can evade the pitch, but actually, like, can the EFL force him?

Can anyone force him to sell?

No,

the short answer, the EFL,

the only thing the EFL could do, and it's a stretch, is to

disqualify him as a director.

The caveat to that is once he is disqualified, if it comes to it, he's got then 28 days as a minimum to divest his interest in the club.

He's had four or five months to do that already, and he's still not managed it.

So 28 days is not really realistic to say, hey, are you going to do this or not?

He's not really going to start to jump into gear if he's disqualified as an owner.

He's more likely to rail against that.

And at which point, we would be

disallowed to be in the competition.

Ergo, Ergo, normal club.

Oh, man,

I just feel for you so much because it's just you're so beholden to, you know, your club can have a good owner or a bad owner.

There's absolutely nothing you can do.

I mean, what can other fans do?

Like, you know, most people, I presume most people who listen to this podcast support a football team.

Like, they love football.

Is there anything they can do to help?

Yeah, absolutely.

And in fairness, since the pitch invasion, the Port Vale fans were absolutely excellent.

They've been through, you know, similar troubles.

They were fantastic with us, as have many other clubs that have

got in touch with us recently.

They all see how easy this could be for it to be their club.

As you say,

a dodgy owner

can be sought

through no fault of anyone.

They can get into a position if they show the right credentials, but they can turn bad.

Our website, sellbeforeweedie.co.uk, has a crowdfunder

and that enable our next steps to go through with

the plans that we've got ahead to, you know, if it comes to it, we have to embarrass die further.

And

there's plans that we've got that we need funding for to go forward.

to ensure that we're giving us the best chance of survival because if you know if if we don't then the club will go um it's it is as simple as that it's it could be a matter of months before it happens and and that's that's just an unbearable thinking really you have our sympathies like we all you know we've all support teams i don't know like

three of us are lower league fans you know yeah troy just supports whoever you know whoever andross is cutting inside for but you know most of us uh like we know like cambridge have been badly run in the past and i'm really lucky that they're really well run now but you never know how long it's going to last for.

Um, we'll definitely like tweet out that information, or certainly, I will.

Um, um, and thanks for coming on.

Let's keep in touch.

Cheers, thanks very much, guys.

Uh, Neil Reese from uh Sell Before We Die, and that'll do for today.

Uh, thank you, Ben.

Cheers, Max.

Thanks, Robin.

Thanks, Max.

Cheers, Troy.

Always a pleasure, Max.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Christian Bennett.

This is The Guardian.