Carabao Cup review and the Super League ruling – Football Weekly Extra

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

It's the Carabao Cup quarterfinals, big penalty wins for Chelsea and Fulham.

At Stamford Bridge, Kieran Trippia is still really awfully tired.

Maybe Eddie Howe should let him hibernate for winter.

Meanwhile, Fulham triumph at Goodison, their first League Cup semi-final ever.

We'll have a joyous archie voice note and ask if a kitten could have struck a penalty with more vigour than Amadou Inana.

Liverpool Hammer West Ham, most interesting, is the fighting talk from Jürgen Klopp telling fans if you're not up for Arsenal on Saturday, give your ticket to someone else.

And congrats to Middlesbrough, their first League Cup semi-final since 2004 when they won the whole thing.

We'll look ahead to the weekend's Premier League action, including Nuno's first game as Nottingham Forest manager at home to Bournemouth.

Nick Ames is in Saudi Arabia for the Club World Cup, so we'll catch up with him.

We'll apologise to Australia over potatoes, answer your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, welcome.

Hello.

Hello, Lars Sivadson.

Good morning, Max.

And bon je sava, Philippe Auclaire.

Bonjour, bonjour, Max.

Yes, Barry, open the box.

Where is the Carabao box?

I don't have the box.

It's in the office.

In my locker.

It's okay.

I don't know if it even still works if the batteries must be gone by now.

Could they send us a new one?

Would Carabao?

They wouldn't.

I mean, we could ask them, I guess.

I mean, I'm not that desperate for it, I'll be honest.

You know, the admin involved in asking them feels too much.

Anyway, just hand for a bridge.

Chelsea won Newcastle 1.

Chelsea won 4-2 on penalties.

Felt last like Chelsea were good in this game.

Have they turned a corner?

I mean, there have actually been quite a lot of games this season in which watching the game and not just the highlights, watching the game, you feel Chelsea are actually doing a lot of good things,

which is why I've sort of foolishly predicted so many times that, you know, this Chelsea team is just about to come good.

And it just so far hasn't fully happened.

But I don't think we should be surprised that they're performing well because I think there's a lot of good sort sort of there's a lot of good parts to this and it's taken longer than i think anyone involved with the club be it fans players ownership would have hoped for it to come together but but listen this sort of what's often written off as sort of a mad shopping spree that they've gone on under bowley

the the kicker is that a lot of these young players they brought in are really really good it's just trying to turn them into a team this quickly when they also they lack a bit of experience they lack a clinical striker and some question marks at the goalkeeper.

Like there are some things that are missing that makes it difficult to win football matches.

But I would defend Chelsea and Pochehino in the sense that I've seen a lot of games this season in which they've actually played quite well.

And I am expecting them to start turning that into positive results at some point.

Meanwhile, Baz,

Kieran Trippier had

a sad day.

I mean,

they're all knack of the Newcastle players.

now is it is it that he's just exhausted or he's actually been so good for so long for Newcastle he's he's really played absolutely brilliantly as well as he could play that it's just kind of all his mistakes are coming in one little run well before I get on to Tripwire I would like to emphatically argue that I do not think Chelsea were at all good in this game I thought they were pretty bad but Newcastle were terrible and I think this game kind of reminded me of the Liverpool-Manchester United game on Sunday, in which I think we all kind of agreed both teams were pretty bad.

Chelsea certainly dominated, but they never really looked like scoring until they scored.

And for all the possession they had, I thought they should have created a lot more chances.

They had one or two.

I think Sterling had one.

But I would.

I would not.

If that's what we're judging to be a good Chelsea performance, they really are a lot worse than than i've thought they were as far as triprier is concerned he has been a transformative signing for newcastle uh there's a lot of goodwill for him at the moment from newcastle fans who are prepared to to you know let his recent mistakes and there have been quite a few They're prepared to let them slide because of everything he has done for them since signing.

But he is having a terrible time of it at the moment and i was he didn't actually start this game he came on and i thought that was interesting he was he was rested and

you know it is becoming a you know we've we've all noticed newcastle are tired

look we're all tired i'm tired i'm sure you're tired

lots of football teams are tired but

Football players are among the most cosseted

individuals on the planet, you know, particularly Premier League footballers.

So I'm not sure how much longer Newcastle can get away with, you know, claiming fatigue.

There are players Eddie Howe has at his disposal that he just will not play.

And that's kind of interesting, you know, when they're down to the bare bones.

It looks like they might have lost another couple of players to injury in this game.

Anthony Gordon was the subject of a pretty brutal foul from Moyes Cassado, which went unpunished.

And I thought Levi Colwell was lucky to get away with one he put in on Emile Craft.

As far as I know, for some reason, there was no VAR at this game.

There's no VAR until the semi-finals, I think, in the Caribbean.

Right, okay.

Do you think the Chelsea players were just like, there's no VAR, we can get violent?

I think if there had been VAR, Chelsea might have had at least one, if not two, players sent off, and that could have changed the game entirely.

But as it was, there wasn't any VAR.

Paisado and Colwell got away with those tackles.

if i was a newcastle fan i would be concerned about my team what seems to be just a losing mentality they got to the final with this competition last season they lost it and they didn't lay a glove on manchester united they just did not show up

uh they did their utmost not to qualify for the the top four in the last two games of last season but got away with it because liverpool also did their utmost not to overtake them.

Then they

got got into the group stage of the Champions League, finished bottom of the group.

I, you know, they seem to be giving a pass for that.

I'm not sure why.

I thought it was pretty poor effort from them.

And now they were, you know, a minute or two away from winning this semi-final and they've been knocked out.

And, you know, this was a big chance for them to end that well-documented trophy drought.

But from what I can see from Newcastle fans on Twitter, they seem to be making excuses for the team and seem to be accepting that

these things happen.

But I will be very interested to see what happens

if, and it's a big Hollywood sign-sized if with neon lights on it, if Sunderland knocked him out of the FA Cup on the 6th of January.

A hopeful neon one.

That could make things very interesting indeed for Eddie Howe, because I think that is one result.

Newcastle fans would not tolerate on the back of these recent failures in the Champions League and this semi-final.

They've got looting away as well on Saturday, I think.

That's a game they could lose on current form.

And

so, yeah, they've looting away next, then Forrest at home, then Liverpool away, and Sunderland in the Cup.

It's a pretty interesting run of fixtures.

And what I think may have been your longest answer of all time on the pod, Baz, but I found it all interesting stuff.

So, well done.

And I think it is interesting stuff.

And I suspect it's stuff I'll be absolutely pilloried for by the few newcastle fans we have left listening to this pod but i i i would imagine if a newcastle fan said what i just said that would be thoroughly acceptable comment for for trippier i mean several things first of all um yes obviously he's been an absolutely tremendous signing for newcastle but i am i the only person to think that what is happening around him is

totally without any relation in terms of scope and scale as to what is actually happening

on the ground.

I mean, he's just a footballer who has had a few bad games.

It's obviously never happened to anybody before, Max.

Nobody has ever missed a penalty in their lives.

That's quite clear.

We know that.

Nobody has ever slightly misjudged the flight of the ball and tried to head the ball back to the keeper and misjudge the flight or misjudge the speed of the ball.

Nobody has ever done that.

And then suddenly, we see this actually ridiculous posting by Moderic's Twitter X

team saying, stay strong, brother, or something like that.

You're still a super player.

And I'm thinking, this is ridiculous.

It's just a guy who had a bad game.

That's all there is to it.

It's not as if he was experiencing a meltdown.

Sometimes you see that.

And I was thinking, actually, he was also playing at right back.

Emmanuel Libwe for Arsenal had a complete meltdown.

That was serious because that was a serious mental health problem.

That was his life basically going on the pitch as well.

And the guy needed help.

What I see for Trippier is: I see a player who's given absolutely everything for his club and who's just knackered like the others.

And it's just the difference between

the incredible level that he had for so long with them, taking it from Atletico, and the fact that at the moment he's not really very good.

He's making mistakes, okay?

Nobody has ever made mistakes on a football pitch.

And I think that all of this together combined with this weird obsession

about,

I don't know, about Newcastle underperforming, but they're performing exactly as I expected them to be performing.

And

it is blown out of all proportion.

And I'm blowing it out of all proportion by talking as long as this I'm doing right now, but it's because it's a very strange reaction to just a moment, a difficult moment, as Carlo and Celotti would put it, in a player's career.

That's all there is to it.

He'll be back.

He's 33, but he'll be back.

He needs a rest, like all of the Newcastle players.

And I think following on from that, I think part of the reason there's such a strong reaction to it is because he's been so consistent and so solid and so like almost not put a foot wrong since he joined.

So when he has a spate of mistakes, it seems very jarring, you know, because we come to expect that he's the one who never messes up for them.

I want to defend, I cannot believe I'm saying this.

I want to defend Newcastle a little bit in the sense that Barry has kind of written off talk of fatigue as excuses, which I think is, it's just a reality.

Like, they've had, for quite a long time now, they've had like almost an entire 11 out injured.

And it's a little bit deceptive because if we sit down and watch the team they put out, it's often quite, you know, the ones they've got fit look quite strong on paper.

But you're missing, like for this one, you've got Harvey Barnes, Alexander Isaac, Joel and Ton Monkeo, Murphy, Pope, Shard, Target, Tenalian, Willock out with injury.

It's more or less less an entire 11 and quite a good 11 as well.

That's just not available.

And it's been that way for weeks.

So, so, so the players, you've had no chance to rotate at all.

And for a team whose playing style is all about dynamism and transition and running, having these guys play every third game for a long time, it is a big ask.

It's very difficult.

It is a huge disadvantage.

And I think that's part of why we've seen this dip in Fulham.

Fulham went through on penalties as well.

They'd be Everton 7-6.

Tom Greytrix, was that the poorest set of winning penalties last night?

Obviously, from the Football Supporters Association, big Fulham fan.

Isn't it that which makes it all the sweeter?

Dylan, could Ian Rushton take a better penalty than Onana?

Yes, he really didn't catch that one.

Did he?

But let's start with Archie Rintut, who demanded his Fulham minute to be joyous about them getting to a league cup final semi-final.

I'm getting ahead of myself for the first time in their history.

Max, I am still buzzing after Fulham's victory.

A glorious night for the Cheeseboard Collective at Goodison Park.

The fact that Jordan Pickford got a hand on four of Fulham's seven scored penalties makes it all the sweeter.

That there was an embarrassing moment that didn't happen to us during the shootout.

Thank you, Amadou Onana.

And I had to turn my sound off the TV.

Such were the nerves for the penalties.

I tried putting on a Fulham shirt to coerce a penalty save.

It didn't work, so I had to take it off.

But after that very painful cup defeat at Old Trafford back in March, when you might remember that Fulham imploded quite spectacularly looking at you, Alexander Mitrovich, to go and then have this night just a few months later.

Normally after painful defeats and I say something good will come around the corner.

It doesn't.

And this time it did.

So yay, that's about it.

Cheers.

Thank you, Archie.

The Cottage Tactico says, does Marco Silver get anywhere near enough credit?

100 goals to win the championship, 10th in the Premier League.

Look how hard promoted teams are finding it this year.

FA Cup quarterfinal.

Loses his best player, but consolidates in the Premier League this year.

Carabao Cup semi-final.

Lars,

are we giving Marco Silver enough credit?

I think it's a very fair point.

I think I've personally slept on Fulham a little bit this season in terms of how well they've done to cope with Mitrovic leaving.

I think this is a team, when you look at it on paper, there's not a lot of players that stand out, but they've they look like they're absolutely no danger of getting relegated.

They have this little cup run now, and it is a team that seems to be performing as more than the sum of their parts.

And I think the coach deserves a lot of credit for that.

I mean,

credit to both sides, I think, for fielding pretty much their first 11, you know,

especially Everton, given they're sort of still vaguely near the bottom.

You know,

they probably get some points back, they're doing very well, but they both went for it.

Liverpool beat West Ham 5-1.

This, Barry, was very much one team making six changes and being really good, and one team making six changes and being really terrible.

Yeah,

it was just an absolute rout.

West Ham didn't turn up.

There's talk there was illness in the camp.

David Moyes rang the changes, and

his team were absolutely obliterated in a

game I thought would be good, but was just really one-sided.

And it's quite interesting, actually, that the main takeout from it was, apart from a couple of excellent goals from Soba's Lai and Jared Bone,

that Jürgen Klopp was complaining about the lack of atmosphere generated by the fans in the stand behind him.

I think managers are always on a sticky wicket when they complain about things like that, even if they do have a point.

But

atmospheres in English grounds are generally dreadful anyway.

So

I'm not sure why he picked that particular game to

flag it up.

Maybe it's because Arsenal are next up.

But yeah, a very one-sided game that David Moise was very defensive afterwards, saying, you know, what do you want from us?

We've delivered a trophy.

We're in contention for a Champions League place.

I'm not so sure about that.

And we've won seven over last nine, you know, which are fair enough points.

But

I think now that West Ham fans have got a taste for Silverware, they want more and expected a bit better effort from their team in this game.

Yeah, I mean, I must say that

in French you would say that that West Ham

team was neither goat nor cabbage.

Now, this part is an expression which requires explanation, but we won't go there.

At least it was neither one thing nor the other.

Is there a Norwegian expression?

Is there a Norwegian expression for this?

Well, machin für lefisk, neither fish nor fowl.

That's

what you want to argue.

Yeah, but goat nor cabbage.

I'm sorry, you cannot just go.

I'm not going to explain that.

You are going to have to.

No, no, I don't want one.

I don't don't want one.

I don't want one.

I'm happy with it.

No, no, no.

So neither goat nor cabbage, because

why, for example, do you leave Lucas Paqueta, who is not injured, who is not ill, on the bench?

For example, he's their best player, right?

We all agreed on that.

You're playing a quarterfinal against Liverpool.

If you win this quarterfinal, you look at who's left in the competition and you think, ooh, quite fancy that.

But what you do, you choose a team which is neither your A team nor your B team.

You choose a kind of

a goatee-cabbage-y team,

which is one thing and not the other.

So the message it passes on to the players is that we care about this, but if we lose, that's not such a big deal.

Why not play the kids or play a proper team?

I mean, it's not as if if it were in the, you know, the first round of this competition, you could quite easily understand it, think, okay, it doesn't really matter.

This is a quarter-final.

I mean, it's not a huge competition, but you know, West Ham, having won the European Europa Conference League, if they could

continue with winning the League Cup, for example, bloody hell, that would be really something for a club like West Ham.

And here it's like, nah, well, the message was muddled, and I think they got the just deserves for that, despite Bowen's absolutely magnificent goal.

But didn't Liverpool do the same thing?

Sorry, Philip.

Like, you know, they made six changes.

I mean, it's a different depth of squad.

Did you see the changes?

Yes, exactly.

Yes.

And there's a slight difference in the

squad.

And I feel like there's a huge difference in that Liverpool obviously have other targets that they're going for the season that are important for the club.

Whereas West Ham are in a situation now where they're not going to get relegated.

There's no way that's happening.

But I think the odds of them making the Champions League through the league are remote to, you know, not worth really talking about.

And

being this close to a final,

it is one of those when you see a team rotate for a game like this, when you see a mid-table team rotate for a game like this, you start asking, What are you for?

Like, what is the point of this if you're not because this is actually a chance for this club to achieve something and to give the fans an incredible day out?

And I don't see the logic.

I know they've got United at home in the league at the weekend.

United looking vulnerable.

There's a chance for a big win in East London there.

But, like,

what are you saving yourself for?

Surely these are the sort of moments you have.

So especially when you know that Liverpool have got Arsenal coming up, so they're always going to rotate.

This is a chance to put them out.

There are not that many strong teams left in the competition.

Just seemed like a huge opportunity missed to me.

It was neither leak nor haddock,

neither cod nor potato.

I mean, I think we can really do a few of these, I think.

From Liverpool's point of view, Baz, I mean, you mentioned it, Silverzee's goal was brilliant.

I liked Curtis Jones, dribbled sort of, it was John Barnes at the Mariconal, right?

Dribbled for a long time, didn't actually dribble past anyone, but the C's parted and there was the goal.

Jared Bone's goal was great.

But in terms of what Klopp said, I thought it was interesting.

I mean, managers occasionally say this, and obviously, if you're in a comfortable position, you know, it's unlikely Nuno Espirito Santo is going to say it after his first game, is it?

You know, like, like Klopp might have earned the right, but I just thought it was like the phrase was interesting, wasn't it?

Saying, you know, you know, Arsenal are going to be up for this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

If it's too much football in December, if you are not in the right shape give your ticket to somebody else i just love the idea of a fan being like i'm just not i'm just not up for this one does anybody want this like it's funny i've got to stand myself down

yeah i'm just i'm just in the i'm in the red zone i'm knackered i'm hoarse what if you've got laryngitis you go

i really want to go but i won't be able to sing for jurgen what can i do Anyway, I mean, I don't know.

I thought it was quite funny.

There's no question on that note, Barry.

In which case, let me talk to you about Middlesbrough.

I don't know if you have lots of Middlesbrough knowledge.

They beat Port Vale 3-0, getting to the semis 20 years after winning it in 2004.

Bradford, the last side from outside the top flight to reach the final when they lost to Swansea in 2013.

So

good luck to them.

And they have Chelsea.

Yeah, I'd completely forgotten that Middlesbrough won this tournament.

in my lifetime.

I really had.

I had to look up who they beat, and it was Big Sam's Bolton, I think.

Well, I know it was, but

I'm sure I must have watched that game.

Probably, would I have spoken?

No, we haven't been going that long.

We've only been going since 2017.

I've no recollection of that game whatsoever.

No recollection of Middlesbrough winning the trophy.

But they did.

And they might win it again this season.

This is your sort of textbook.

No one really cares about the League Cup until you suddenly wake up one morning and discover your team's in the semi-final.

And suddenly it's very important.

And it is important to them because they're having a season that's neither squid nor squigwi.

And,

you know, they started really badly.

I think they failed to win any of their first seven, lost five, drew two.

There was talk that Michael Carrick might be out of a job.

Then they won six in a row, and they've been kind of up and down ever since.

Win a couple, lose a couple.

Like Newcastle, they have also had rotten luck with injuries.

They had nine players out for this game.

They've lost another five

in the game against Port Vale.

Tommy Smith, Darren Lenihan are both out for the season.

Riley McGree, Max, the Australian, interestingly,

he has plantarphysitis.

Oh, dear.

Well, I could talk to him.

I believe it's the same ailment you're afflicted with, with, so you can probably empathise with him.

So, yeah, they've got a lot of players injured.

Obviously, I'm not going to dismiss them as just being lazy and moany, like their fellow northeastern side.

And they've got Chelsea in the semi-final, which is very much a game they'll see as winnable.

So, yeah, and the game itself against Port Vale, it's not really worth talking about.

It was more comfortable than Liverpool's win over West Ham.

They were 2-0 up inside 20 minutes or so.

Gavin Massey missed a sitter for Port Vale at 2-0.

And then

Matt Crookes finished it off for Middlesbrough 3-0 with, I think, half an hour or more to go, and that was it.

Game over.

And what Riley needs to do is a lifelong commitment to calf stretching, which you'd hope as a footballer he does anyway.

Some good insoles, and you just wear your running shoes all day, every day, and you'll be okay.

Yeah, that win in 2004, Joseph Dazire Job and Budawin Zenden with the goals for Middlesbrough in the first seven minutes.

Kevin Davis scored a goal, a mistake from Mark Schwarzer, but he redeemed himself with a series of excellent saves.

Some guys in this team.

Akocha, Campo, Jorkaev,

Bruno and Gotti, Emerson Tome in the Bolton side, Danny Mills, Ugo Ehiog, Garris Southgate, Frank Kadrew.

What a back four for Middlesbrough with Mendieta Boeteng, Juninho playing for them, of course.

as well.

So there we go.

Yeah.

Chelsea Middlesbrough, Liverpool Fulham.

In 2013, Juninho said winning the league cup with Middlesbrough was better than when he won the World Cup with Brazil in 2002.

So there you go.

And that'll do for part one.

Part two, we'll look ahead to the weekend's Premier League action.

Hi Pod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So, Premier League Football Palace Brighton is on tonight for some reason at the weekend.

I mean Liverpool Arsenal.

We've touched on the Liverpool side of things.

Lars, Jung Klopp wants everyone to yell incredibly loudly.

But it is a massive, it's a massive game, isn't it?

And look, we oversold Liverpool Manchester United, but this is a different beast, this one, isn't it?

Oversold.

I mean, it is a thing that sometimes happens that...

A game's importance and significance is not matched by its entertainment value.

That doesn't mean it's necessarily been oversold.

It's just it's a thing that can happen.

But here I think we will I think we have a fair shout at getting both because I think this Liverpool team is it generates eminently watchable games because going forward they're creating a lot.

There's a lot of things going on.

You've got some magnificent attackers in this team.

You have a much more attacking midfield than we've seen on the clock previously.

But they're still a bit vulnerable down the other end.

Like, they're still not fully reliable in defense.

And I think that is just as a neutral, I am massively here for it.

Like, this is the Liverpool you want to see.

Because more often than not, I mean, sadly against United, we didn't see that.

But I think Arsenal should have more than enough going forward to trouble Liverpool, but you also back Liverpool to

usually produce.

I mean,

I know saying that sounds silly after they were held by United, but I still think this is true for most games.

And as a neutral with really no skin in the game whatsoever, I'm massively looking forward to watching this.

Philippe, with skin in the game, how do you feel about it?

I feel oddly, bizarrely and worryingly confident about Arsenal's chances

because I think that the slight problems that Liverpool has at the back and which Lars has just been talking about are are not going to be solved in a matter of days.

They will be there to be exploited.

I think that Arsenal has got the resources in midfield to actually be more present in midfield than what Liverpool can propose.

I also think that when you see the form that Martin Odegaard is starting to show, the fact that Saka, Martinelli, Jesus are all available, you put all this together, you add to this the new resilience found by their own defense with William Saliba, who is probably the best centre-back in the country at the moment.

And you think that apart from the fact that Arsenal still has, is a bit wobbly when it comes to its goalkeeping position,

if you look at it, I think, fairly, in a very detached way, you think if you were to give points per sector of the team before the game, I think Arsenal would come on top.

This being said, of course, this is without counting on the famous Anfield Raw and the capacity of Jorgen Klopp to mobilize the faithful in Liverpool to carry the Reds to victory.

But no, honestly, I think

it's a big, big chance for Arsenal, actually, because

they're actually clicking into gear now.

They haven't been fantastic since the beginning of the season, but they're improving from game to game to game at the moment.

And I think it's a perfect moment for them to actually do something which would matter

in the context of a title race.

You got close there, Philippe, to doing a combined 11 of just Arsenal players there to

irritate the masses.

Lars, you wanted to come in?

Well, yeah, I just wanted to ask Philippe, because Philippe watches Arsenal slightly more forensically than I do.

So I thought this would be a good situation to...

Because my feeling is they're not.

They haven't really been as swashbuckling as they were at times last season.

But there is an added element of control, I think.

Like, the games are less unhinged.

They've got more control over what's going on.

Which I'm thinking, while they're less...

Sometimes maybe less fun to watch than they were at times last season, I think this could stand them in very good stead in what looks like it's going to be a proper title race.

I'm nodding.

You agree?

You may say just.

You're nodding.

Nodding is

fine, but not on a podcast.

Well, as an answer, that is neither radish nor halibut, my friend.

I'm

hoping for words.

Forrest played Bournemouth.

Jonathan says, who is likely to replace Nuno as Forrest manager?

Jim says, Forrest fans will always love Steve Cooper, but sentiment aside, was it his time?

And will Nuno prove an improvement, if an initially uninspiring one?

Barry.

Yeah, it's always dangerous to criticise a club for sacking a manager who's doing okay and replacing him because, you know, a lot of us did that when Maurizio Pochitino was this guy we'd never heard of was parachuted into Southampton.

Who did he replace?

I can't remember.

Nigel Atkins.

Nigel Atkins.

Yeah, Nigel Atkins was doing a decent job at Southampton, and he's a lovely guy who everyone seems to like with his little inspirational messages on Twitter.

I don't know if he still does them, but

so yeah, that ended up being a good move.

This one,

there was a lot of

love for Steve Cooper at Forrest.

He got the club.

He also got them into the Premier League

after 23 years, kept them there and was doing all right this season, but they're on a bad run.

There's talk

him and

Maranakis, the owner, didn't see eye to eye on a number of things, and Maranakis was actively looking for a replacement behind his back.

and Cooper was well aware of this so it's no great surprise he's gone he leaves with a lot of goodwill in the bank from Forrest fans who were seem to have been sad but not hugely surprised that he did get the sack uh

whether or not Nuno will do a good job remains to be seen I'm not sure what exactly it is Maranakis wants

He has talked of Forrest winning trophies, of Forrest sort of establishing themselves in the top third of the Premier League, and you know, that's not inconceivable

given

his largesse in the transfer market.

But

yeah, Cooper will be fine.

He will get another job.

There's already talk of him going to Palace and Roy Hodgson possibly moving upstairs or retiring again

or possibly getting sacked, which would seem a little harsh.

But yeah, I wouldn't imagine Cooper will have any shortage of job offers.

I'm still not sure how good a manager he is, but

forest fans love him, that's undeniable.

As long as Roy is allowed to, they cut the camera, can cut to him in the stands and he can laugh as giddily as he did in the last game.

I did just check, I couldn't find an official Nigel Atkins uh Twitter, what he was saying, so I couldn't get any of his motivational words.

Um, Nuno, as producer Joel points out, has been compared on this podcast to an aging Jedi, an ancient night gathering moss, and the guy who guards the Holy Grail Grail in Indiana Jones.

Lars, which one will they get?

And do you think it's a...

I mean, he did get Wolves seventh twice in the Premier League, you know, so after promotion from the championship.

So like on paper, that's how you should judge him rather than the sort of bad bit of Tottenham.

Yeah, and he had that Wolves team set up to defend quite resiliently and then hit people on the counter quite efficiently.

And that just kind of wasn't the job description at Tottenham.

And he seemed to kind of fall through there a little bit.

But maybe this is a better better fit for him.

I find it a little bit hard to be very excited about Nuno as an appointee anywhere.

But

Forest are in this sort of situation where it doesn't look like they're going to go down because the three newly promoted teams are all really struggling.

They should probably be doing a little bit better.

With Maranakis being such a having such a reputation for being a loose cannon, our main instinct, and Cooper having so much goodwill, our main first instinct is to think this must be a silly thing to do.

But then, if you just take away all the noise and look at it, they've won one in 13.

I mean, that's the kind of form that usually will get you in trouble as a manager.

So, maybe not a completely shocking decision.

I just, I think if you're a forest fan and you've lost the coach that you had a very strong emotional bond with, and he's been replaced by Nuno, that's not a great feeling to wake up to.

I think probably not.

You have chosen wisely.

That's what I'm actually saying.

But Nuno was champion of Saudi Arabia last season, so that changes everything.

It's true.

It's a very prestigious competition.

He was.

Absolutely.

Many congratulations to him for that.

West Ham Manchester United,

seventh versus eighth.

It's the Everton Cup this game.

Absolutely enormous.

Spurs, Everton.

Everton have got Spurs and Man City over the Christmas break.

Interesting test for daish ball, isn't it?

Because they are two games where they won't have the ball a lot, but they'll get some set pieces.

It'd be interesting to see how both those defences react to the ball being swung under their crossbar.

Aston Villa plays Sheffield United on Friday night.

You know the way at Christmas you sort of start getting confused about what day it is and all that.

I'm already at that point.

Yes.

Christmas Day is until Monday.

So yeah, give it a week and I'll just be all over the place.

Yeah, we'll have a show on Christmas Eve, by the way, Barry, which I think you're on, where we'll review all of these games.

So, you know, you don't have to know what day it is.

It's the day after all the football happens, I think, and then we'll do some talking about it.

Now, while we've been on air, we've had the European Super League verdict.

Barry had his telly on before the pod, but he turned it on, and I think CBBC was on.

So I don't know what the tweenies are saying about the European Super League verdict.

But yeah, the European Court of Justice ruling on the Super League is out.

It has found against UEFA and FIFA.

UEFA and FIFA rules banning clubs joining breakaway competitions like the European Super League are unlawful, the ECJ has ruled.

It had been claimed by the European Super League and its backers, A22, that UEFA and FIFA were breaking competition law by threatening to sanction clubs and players who joined the breakaway league.

The court does say that its ruling does not mean that a Super League should be approved.

Seb Stafford Bloor tweeting, the ECJ verdict is like when the power goes out in Jurassic Park and all the T-Rexes are able to leave their cages.

Adam Hurry, does this mean there will be another Anglo-Italian Cup?

Or

anyway, Philippe, what does it actually mean?

It would take some time to.

It means, first of all, because UEFA has lost and lost in a big, big way.

We were not expecting that.

We were expecting a judgment that would be

neither sheep nor plum,

and which would kind of

give

reason to both sides to claim victory.

And this hasn't been the case.

Because what I'm reading,

the powers of UEFA and FIFA are not subject to any such criteria.

FIFA and UEFA are therefore abusing a dominant position.

Moreover, given their arbitrary nature, the language is quite amazing, their rules on approval, control, and sanctions must be held to be unjustified restrictions on the freedom to provide service.

I mean, it's quite extraordinary.

It's basically...

So, so, sorry, sorry to ask a basic question, to say, you know, football clubs are football clubs, right?

You know, you could be a football club and be, you know, you could just go where you want, right?

There's no reason.

People join these leagues because they're the leagues, right?

They exist, and UEFA, people join UEFA because you want to play in UEFA's competition, but this is basically saying you don't have to.

Well, it's basically said, no, it's not

saying that because, on the other hand, they're saying this doesn't mean that a super league would be fine, legal, and you know, adhere to the regulations in place or the regulations which should be in place.

What it's saying is that, and in fact, this is true, there is a conflict of interest here.

Because on one hand, you are the competition organizer,

a kind of governing body, even if FIFA is a governing body when UEFA is not, but a kind of governing body on one hand.

And on the other, you're also somebody who gets to make an awful lot of money.

It's an economic thing.

you're an entrepreneur and you can't have both.

And that's what basically

the court is saying: is that we have here a genuine conflict of interest at the very heart of the organization of football.

And what works, by the way, for UEFA also works for FIFA, which, in the wake of the announcement of the new expanded FIFA World Cup, will also provide some interesting, I think,

more chapters in this long-going starter.

But honestly, Max's first reaction is that I'm really, really surprised that the judges went as far as they did and basically

gave

UEFA what will be felt as a stinging defeat absolutely everywhere.

The guys from A22, you know, the Super League guys, are going to be dancing the champagne is flowing in Luxembourg and the rest of it.

It's going to be interesting, by the way, to see what

the federations, the member associations, and the leagues are going to do because you might have seen that A, Bundesliga has decided no way, none of our clubs is joining any breakaway league.

And the Italian FA has said that any club that would be joining this kind of breakaway league will be expelled from Syria.

So Juve Intera and Milan.

I mean, what's left, I don't know, but they would be expelled.

So this is

the can of worms is well and truly open, Max, basically.

Right.

A22 have tweeted, we have won the hashtag right to compete.

The UEFA monopoly is over.

Football is free.

Clubs are now free from the threat of sanction and free to determine their own futures.

I suppose the next question is: then, does this mean all the clubs that went into the Super League will, you know, want to do it again, or won't they?

Will they have been burnt, especially by the reaction from their own supporters, right?

To go, well, we, you know, we can't do this.

If you've already said, you'd be chucked out of Serie A, be chucked out of the Bundesliga.

I presume the Premier League would do the same.

I don't know.

And La Liga, but like,

is that the next stage is what to see what the biggest clubs do?

Because if, I don't know, Port Vale and Bockham say, hey, we're finally free,

we're gonna launch out on our own.

I'm not sure anyone's gonna be that excited.

The guys from A22, which is basically the guys from the Super League, now have a very solid foundation from which to work.

They're not going to repeat the mistake they made first time round, which is they didn't quite they were not quite prepared for the pushback.

They were not prepared full stop and they paid the price very quickly.

And their project,

as you will remember, their project just died a death within hours, basically, of being announced.

So they're going to be a bit more careful about that.

I think the first thing we're going to see now is maneuvering

between the clubs themselves.

So you can imagine that those who have stayed with A22, which is not everybody, are going to go back to their former friends, to the Liverpools, and Manchester United's, and Arsenal's and Chelsea's, and Carrion, and

clubs of that ilk, and tell them, them, now you can see we can do it.

Let's think of a good way to do it.

It is only the start of a new,

yes, I mean, the can of worms, you've got to wait until the worms turn, the maggots turn into flies.

And we're not at that stage yet.

For the moment, I think they'll just be happy.

They'll be feasting on UEFA's corpse at the moment and enjoying the fact that they've been given this magnificent Christmas Prezi by the Luxembourg Accord.

We have to repeat, it is totally, totally, utterly unexpected.

And it is genuinely something that is going to shake up all of football for a very long time and perhaps for, I mean, actually, perhaps forever in terms of the way that the competitions are held, the competitions are ruled.

This opens so many opportunities for others to attack UEFA and FIFA in the way they run their competitions that I think the lawyers are in for a good Christmas as well.

Right, we'll digest this.

I presume this is not the last time we speak of this.

No, uh, before we end part two, just wanted to say well done to Mary Erps, who's won the BBC Sports Personality of the Year.

Uh, she won golden glove at the World Cup in the summer.

FIFA Best Women's Goalkeeper was voted England's Women Player of the Year as well, finished fifth in the ballon d'Or.

She said, I want people to relate to me and my journey.

See that I'm just a normal person trying to live out her dream.

I'm trying to make goalkeeping cool.

It's happening.

It's happening slowly but surely.

It's the MERPS mission.

Goalkeeping is cool.

I sort of feel if you say

she is obviously cooler than me.

Most people are.

Last time I launched, someone said, This is, I'm cool.

I'm cool.

Come and be cool with me.

But anyway, look, well done.

Her winning has certainly seemed to annoy a lot of the right people.

So that is,

you know, richly deserved.

And well done.

And obviously, more on that.

And the whole women's game on the Guardian Women's Football Weekly, which we heartily encourage you to download and listen to wherever you get your podcasts.

Right.

We'll be back in a second.

Nick Ames joins us.

He is is in Saudi for the Club World Cup.

HiPod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Nick Ames is out in Saudi Arabia covering the Club World Cup for the Guardian.

Snorky says, What's the point of the Club World Cup?

Jack says, Where does the Club World Cup belong in the rankings of competitions for club teams?

No one seems to care about it unless you win.

Nick, am I right in thinking there's a bit of a sort of maybe European or certainly Premier League hubris to how this competition is viewed around the world?

Yeah,

there definitely is.

If you speak to players from the other clubs who've been involved, we've obviously have the massive Egyptian club, Al-Ali.

We've had the local side here, Al-Itahad.

We've got Flaminenso, who Man City played tomorrow, and Mafaniel, whose supporters are milling around town everywhere.

I look, really.

It's definitely seen as a sort of almost a validation that, you know, this is our moment in the sun to compete against the top European clubs and show what we can do.

And I wasn't here for the first game, which was It had against Auckland, but the matches that I've seen and been to, everyone's been quite well supported.

Even Uawa, Reds from Japan against Man City the other day, had a really die-hard bulk of fans singing and chanting.

Aleta Had here, who got knocked out deservedly by Alari

the other, well, it was about six days ago now,

with a team, Benz and Mercante Fabinho.

They still got well beaten, which

some people might have an interesting comment on that.

They were very well supported, like the you know, really loud fan base, really passionate.

But yeah, I definitely think it's less of a dream ticket for a European or a Premier League team, to be honest.

Much as Man City are obviously making a lot of the noises, and much as you know, it's not bad to have

world champion on your CV.

I mean, presumably, they're favorites against Fluminese, but what's your knowledge of the Fluminese team?

Uh, you know, I presume better than mine.

Uh, my knowledge is it's a bit of a dad's army.

Um, I mean, I might pop down to their first conference a bit later, where um, Felipe Mello, um, who is now 40, will be the player put up.

It would have been nice if he'd been joined by his 43-year-old goalkeeper.

And coming up the ranks from the Youth Academy is a 35-year-old Marcelo,

who appears to be, I mean, I went to their game the other day.

Marcelo was kind of comfortably their best player for most of it.

And then spent the last sort of 10 minutes in a sort of Cristiano Ronaldo at Euro 2016 coaching from a touchline going crazy because you know fair enough for Marcelo this is the club where he started out I think and grew up so it's a massive deal for him he's won this tournament loads of times but this would bring things back full circle so so there are you know that

there are people who are not members of Premier League clubs or followers of Premier League or European football for whom this does mean a big deal flamineta themselves they were quite fun they were quite brazen technical fast they they'll create create a chance or two but i mean Alali, who they beat 2-0, could have scored three or four.

And I would be over-egging the pudding if I thought City,

well, if I said to you here that City wouldn't win comfortably.

You certainly know more about Flaminency than I do, since I was calling them Flaminesi for the first five minutes of this chat.

Are you in any way related to the Max Rushton who was making fun of me on a recent pod for my poor pronunciation?

Yes.

If it's any consolation, I was in a shopping mall the other day and i texted another colleague who's out here saying oh my goodness there's so many palmiers fans floating around um so so uh so the guy

we're learning as we go

i blame i blame jet lag from a week ago uh

fair enough i um i do like the idea of dad's army though playing football just you know just some you know someone at the back yelling we're all doomed and someone next to him going don't panic is exactly what you want on a football pitch isn't it um in terms of you know they're obviously sort of people looking ahead to the World Cup in Saudi Arabia and going, just in terms of infrastructure, this is very different to Qatar, isn't it?

Right?

It's a massive place.

It's got a real football history.

And so, you know, on that note, like,

does it look like it is a place that could hold a World Cup in a sort of normal way?

I don't know because a lot of the sites are yet to be built.

At least one city where one of the stadia is likely to be, Neon, is yet to be built.

And we're sort of seeing and hearing vague things about a lot of plans.

But frankly,

when you're trying to get information from the Saudi side about this kind of thing, at the moment, there's a bit of a charade of, oh, oh, it's not done yet.

You know, we've still got to put the bid book together, blah, blah, blah.

In which case, they should probably get Janny to delete some of his Instagram posts where he pretty much announced it.

So you're not, there's not too much more information forthcoming.

The stadium that already exists here, where

most of the Club World Cup is being played, is huge and can easily hold international football, but it's not very well located.

It's a long way out of town.

Massive car parks everywhere.

You'd want to have a look at access.

You can see here in Jeddah,

there is a big renovation project.

It's been quite a controversial one for reasons that we might talk about another time.

taking place

where there'll be a new stadium built and a massive entertainment hub that's closer to the town to the city centre which i think is something they're they are looking at so people aren't just being funneled out of town all the time um and the old town is under heavy renovation too there's a lot of plans um i think they're still whittling down precisely what all the venues will be but it's really hard to do much more than what for

because when when one of the cities isn't even built yet it's hard to know what it's going to look like.

What we can say, look,

we'll come back to the football culture part of it.

This is different

to Qatar, I think, in one way, and that you do have three or four big old clubs who have a hell of a fan base.

And, you know,

I would never, having seen Alita have

fan base against Ali, say, oh, you guys are

flyby nights because you're not, you know, there's a real passionate football culture here.

How they put that on show for the rest of the world in 11 years' time and what it takes is a very big question and a question that nobody can really answer yet.

I mean, it's one step saying the stadium's not built, but the city that the stadium is due to be built in is also not built.

Seems quite a stretch, doesn't it?

The Club World Cup is expanding in 2025.

It'll be a summer knockout tournament made up of 32 teams.

It's just what we need, Barry.

Daily pods on that.

It'll have clubs from each of the six confederations.

Europe will have 12 teams.

It'll be played in the US.

It's going to be held every four years.

Arsen Wenger says the positive impact this will have on clubs is going to be huge because it will increase resources for clubs all over the world to develop and compete.

I accept that the football calendar is a busy one, but this is a competition that's going to take place every four years.

Of course, the rest period during the competition and afterwards has to be respected.

Barry, as someone who doesn't believe in fatigue, as of 45 minutes ago,

what are your thoughts on this competition?

I don't really have any at the moment.

I do find it quite amusing that Arsen Wenger, who just relentlessly whinged and moaned about about fixture congestion

during his time as a manager, is sort of throwing his shoulder behind this particular wheel with such enthusiasm.

He's certainly changed his tune.

He did get in the token mention of fatigue.

I think Lars stitched me up like a kipper earlier when he said I was completely disregarding concerns about fatigue.

Lots of football teams are fatigued, not just, you know, know, Newcastle don't have a monopoly on fatigue.

No, no, of course.

Look, more fixtures.

I think there should be far fewer.

So should we have another big tournament?

No, that's my immediate thought.

But I'd have to sort of put more thought into it before giving my definitive verdict, which I'm sure is the one everyone in the corridors of power is waiting for.

On the subject of

corridors of power, I'm actually in the Ritz-Carlton Hotel in Gieda now,

being the cool guy in the hotel foyer.

Where don't get too excited, but there's a FIFA summit going on as we speak.

Philippe has just thrown up.

Quite surely, well, yes, it's, I mean, I think this particular summit, it's more of a sort of

look ahead to stuff that we pretty much know will be in the calendar already, and also a bit of a year review from Infantino, which I think I think Charlie Brooker could do a screen wipe on, couldn't he?

I was here actually the day that the

announcement about the qualification criteria for the expanded Club World Cup was made on Sunday.

It's a little bit disappointing, I think, as a member of the media that no press conference or sort of scrutiny is offered up for something like this.

This is a process that, although it was put on everyone's desk last December, towards the end of the World Cup in Qatar, it's been ongoing for seven years

with a bit of a stall during COVID.

I don't think there's been much chance to really interrogate it and ask people about it.

It's very instructive when you,

the day after they make this announcement, you go and talk to Bernardo Silva at a Man City press conference and he says, well, look,

we haven't been consulted.

We're at a much bigger risk of injury.

We don't get Christmas anymore.

We don't get summer anymore.

Basically saying it is too much.

So

I'm uncomfortable with the way that this has been rushed through, you know, pretty much silently without any sort of need to scrutinize it.

I would just kind of like to immediately break ranks a little bit and say, because I think very few of us on this panel are super hyped about the direction the sport is going in and the people who are in charge of things.

But I'd just kind of like to throw in that I think philosophically and theoretically, the idea of a stronger, extended, and worthwhile club World Cup makes a lot of sense to me.

I think I'm a simpleton.

I think the idea that you start at like

the lowest level of football are local competitions and the better teams move on to national competitions.

The best teams from that qualify for continental competitions.

And it makes total sense to me that there should be an internet intercontinental competition on top of that tree.

Whereas what we have right now, as Nick will appreciate, the current tournament is is neither a turbot nor nor a

apple, I think.

It's kind of it it's definitely it exists, but doesn't seem to work for a lot of people.

And I don't hate the idea of trying to make a proper Club World Cup.

But clearly, this workload, the workload of the players is an issue.

I mean, what a few days this has been for UEFA.

They lose the case in Luxembourg, and they see FIFA just throwing this

in their way.

Basically, it's a direct attempt at killing the Champions League and killing UEFA as the organizer of the biggest club tournament on the planet.

That's the first thing I would say.

Second thing, if they drank champagne, they would be drinking it in the streets of Riyadh and Jeddah because this is a massive victory for Saudi Arabian football clubs.

At the moment, they've already got one club qualified for the 2025.

They're top of the rankings in Asia.

They will probably get a second spot because of that.

And one of their clubs is probably going to win the Champions League this season.

They might have three clubs, three clubs, in that Club World Cup in 2025.

I think everything that's been said about the lack of of consultation has already been said.

FIFPRO has published a statement which I would invite people to read, in which they state very clearly what they think about this competition and the fact that, as per usual, no consultation, no vote, no problem when it comes to FIFA.

And last, we already know, just to give some information, the names of some of the clubs, MAX, which will take part in this competition, including some English clubs.

So I can already tell you that Al-Akhli of Egypt, Widat Casablanca, Morocco, Al-Hilal of Saudi Arabia, Eurara Wed Diamonds, that's Japan, that will take part, as well as Chelsea, Manchester City, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, PSG, Inter, Porto, and Benfica, Monterey, Ceatral Saudis, Club Leon, and poor Auckland City, as well as

Palmeiras, Flamengo, and Fluminense.

So we already know what the competition is going to look like, and it basically will be genuinely the biggest names in world football.

But for what purpose is a different matter, and I'm sure we'll have plenty of opportunities to talk about this again in the future.

Daily pods in 2025.

Nick, we'll let you go.

Enjoy the summit, and we'll catch up with you soon.

Thank you, guys.

A Merry Christmas, and also to everyone listening.

Thanks a lot.

Just briefly on Australian Christmas dinners and roast potatoes, which I claim

were not there on the plate of an Australian Christmas.

David Squires, our very own, said, Australian Christmas dinners are a disgrace.

I take my own roast potatoes to the in-laws, amongst other stupid local things like pav,

starchy passive aggression by stealth, is what he says.

I don't know, does he mean pavlova?

I don't know.

Anyway, Michael says, not a question, but just needed to point out that roast potatoes are a staple of Christmas lunches in Australia.

With the greatest respect to Max's family, there's been enough Australia hate on the pod recently.

Without needing to pick on our culinary choices, Merry Christmas all.

Yeah, many people noted that rose potatoes are on a plate.

Ben says, Will Lars be bottling and selling his special Nordic juice in time for Christmas?

I don't know if you heard this mentioned, Lars.

Well, enough people messaged me about it that I definitely had to

get through it.

Yeah, no, that's I thought that was very indelicate of Barry to reveal.

I do apologize.

And finally,

Avenue Ensemble, the guys that wrote and played, well, didn't write, but played the string quartet version of the Guardian Football Weekly theme, have just tweeted, back on the Guardian Football Weekly podcast.

What a lovely surprise.

However, Tom,

who is in charge of Avenue Ensemble, can confirm he's never actually met Max, Max, never visited Fortune Street Park, or owned a cello, which is, I'm sure I met someone a park with a cello who said they'd play in a string quartet for Football Weekly.

Maybe it was just a fever dream.

Anyway, Merry Christmas to Football Weekly panelists and listeners.

Thank you so much.

And that'll do for today's pod.

Thanks, Barry.

Thank you.

Tears, Lars.

Thank you, Max, and Merry Christmas, everyone.

Thank you, Philippe.

Thank you, Max.

Julia Noel.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

We'll be back on Christmas Eve.

This is The Guardian.