England swipe Serbia aside and the return of Postecoglu – Football Weekly

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly Panic Over.

Staple that St.

George's cross to your face.

England are good and are going to win the World Cup.

They made a tricky trip to Serbia on a shagpile rug.

Looks simple.

Morgan Rogers looked great in the 10.

Madowake and Gordon were direct at wide.

And Elliot Anderson had another good game at the base in midfield.

England played quick and direct and looked like they had a plan.

Elsewhere, Ireland lose to 105th ranked in the world.

Armenia, it's a disastrous defeat.

Scotland win in an echo-ey empty stadium in Belarus.

There's a huge late win for Italy and Norway score 11.

Brackets, write 11 in letters.

Close brackets.

Meanwhile, Nuno out and Jin at Forest.

did the Maranakis blind trusting me that he didn't see any Spurs gamed in the Premier League last season.

We'll discuss Nuno's legacy and celebrate the fact that Posta Koglu is back.

There's worrying news for Baz, some classic email for Sectomy wedding hits.

Your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, John Bruin, welcome.

Hello, Max Rushton.

Hello, Nicki Bandini.

Hello, Max Rushton.

And when I said worrying news, it's nothing to actually worry about, but I don't want you to be on edge for the podcast.

Well, I'm already on edge.

It's too late.

We are on edge after the island performance, but we'll get to that.

Let's start in Serbia then.

Serbia-nil, England, five.

Charlie says, where should England's victory parade start next summer?

Yeah, Dave says, where's the World Cup final being held?

And should us England fans book flights now?

And Homer's Choice says, given how much the pod overreacts to poor performances by England, are you going to overreact to this good performance?

I mean, John, it was...

In a way, Tuchel's first real test in a competitive game.

Serbia hadn't lost at home for two years.

They hadn't conceded in qualifying until this game.

Morgan Rogers, Anthony Gordon, Lee Vamento all started.

They all played well.

In fact, England was just good.

It was fun.

It was quick.

I enjoyed myself.

England played English football as we've seen it.

And it's taken a while under Thomas Tuchel.

Actually, it hasn't had that long, but there's been an impatience about him, hasn't there?

Particularly after Andorra, which

was a grind for all of us, let's be fair.

We move on, and the sense is that they're playing in Serbia, they're playing a purportedly better opponent, and England were able to raise their levels and play very, very well.

And Thomas Tuchel, as a manager, is well used to English football, you know, was successful in English football.

And, okay, foreign appointments we've had previously.

Sven Jorin Erikson hadn't coached in English football.

Fabio Capello tried to make England play like an Italian team.

Tuchel, having been in the Premier League, realises what the best facets of an England team are and is trying to implement that.

He's slightly hamstrung by the fact that the England team that

we've had for the last few years is probably a bit over the top, and he's having to find new players, but he's been pretty successful in that.

Maddie Wecky's been a success.

Elliot Anderson's been a success.

I was just looking actually at where the World Cup final is held.

It's at the MetLive Stadium in New Jersey, and I was thinking where the post-match celebrations could be held.

And of course, Bada Bing from the Sopranos.

Surely the England team should be hiring that out for the World Cup final celebrations.

Obviously.

And if it goes wrong, you know,

Mark Bullingham just takes Thomas Tuchel out on a boat ride just for no reason.

And Thomas goes, oh, it's.

It's your boat ride, Tom.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's good you're here, Nikki.

I mean, it's always good you're here, obviously.

But

as a panelist who doesn't get carried away for good or bad, where are you?

And I know you obviously have, you know,

Italy are probably the team that you would will to win the World Cup the most, but watching the single performance, how carried away would you get?

Yeah, it was really funny this last night because I actually watched it with some friends of visiting and two Americans and one Canadian.

And one of the Americans is more of a football fan or a soccer fan and was...

was fairly understanding of everything that's going on.

The other two, not so much football fans.

And I was trying to brief them a bit and saying, listen, this might not be the finest example of football i could have shown you right this is a game i need to watch but it's it's perhaps going to be a bit boring it's perhaps going to be a bit stiff because this england team they're not really playing this exciting flowing football and then they went and played some really good football and i was like oh actually that was that was quite a better example of football than i was hoping to did or expecting to be able to give you but i i don't know i i

i think the problem with international football specifically is

none of it is really equivalent to the bit that matters.

The bit that matters for England is quarterfinal, semifinals, final of a knockout tournament.

In those games, you're going to play the two or three teams in the world at any given moment who are capable of winning that tournament, right?

There's going to be a very small section of teams that could win this World Cup.

And I think that England are in that group.

And I would have said that before this game,

I do think

there are things you take from this that feel really, really encouraging.

And there are concrete things like Elliot Anderson, because it feels like Elliot Anderson Anderson offers something different in that midfield role something that perhaps um plays really well for for Declan Rice partly because there's just that always been that feeling with with Rice that he feels when he feels more free to push on he shows the best of himself but I also thought that Anderson was just this brilliantly English directness and straightforwardness with the ball always moving it forwards always taking it forwards that I think felt like the start of an identity maybe as well I I really feel like in very little time at all I'm looking at him and thinking he has to be part of this.

He has to be starting because I think he brings a character to the team that it didn't have before.

And I think certainly when

you look at the second goal, how neatly it came together, that was the sort of football I imagine that Tuchel wants this team to deliver.

And I think there was some really, really good stuff.

And some of it isn't surprising.

I think the depth of this England group has never been surprising.

If I was to wave any flag of concern, it would be that actually,

even at the Euros, we were talking about sometimes, oh, but would it be better even if Harry Kane wasn't starting and Watkins was starting?

Sometimes the depth can be a problem.

And looking at how well England played this game, I'm like, well, is there some suggestion that maybe some of the players who we've assumed are definite starters shouldn't be assumed as definite starters?

Because this group behind them can really do things.

But

come on, they won 5-0.

It was brilliant.

I thought this was a really, really impressive England performance.

And I'm trying to do, because you want me to, Matt, because you want me to be be that voice of reason.

No, you don't have to.

Go wild.

But

I do think it was really impressive, way above what I was expecting last night.

Yeah.

And the interesting about Anderson, actually, Barry, is it's not like he's sitting in a role where someone goes, well, it doesn't really matter how well you play.

Someone else, as Nikki alluded to, the interesting questions are about Morgan Rodgers was brilliant.

but we presume Dude Bellingham plays there.

Mad Aweake was brilliant and we presume Saka plays there.

Part of me would like to give these guys the shirt next time and have Saka and Bellingham on on the bench if they're available to say, you know, these guys have earned the right to keep those shirts.

Yeah, he could do that,

but he would get pelters from the media, one imagines.

I don't think he particularly cares what the media make of him.

He seems to have quite a fractious relationship with them, as most England managers do.

Just I would take exception to the fact that we overreact when England lose, as one correspondent suggested, as someone who has sat here with my jaw on the floor while various colleagues and other people in the media have lavished Garrett Sautke with

excessive praise for throwing away assorted semifinals and finals over the years.

But anyway,

that's in the past.

Yeah, it doesn't mean you won't keep bringing it up, though, it doesn't.

Oh, no.

It's all I've got.

I mean, bringing up the past is, well, I don't know.

Bringing up the past feels like like a lot.

It's all I've got.

It's all it needs to be.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But yeah, certainly those players, you know, if you get the shirt and you don't do anything wrong, I sort of am an advocate that you should get to keep it until you don't deserve it anymore.

But if you're bringing in Elliot Anderson and starting him, and he has been superb over these two games, admittedly against poor opposition,

who are you leaving out?

Well, I I suppose that's the point where Anderson, not really leaving anyone out because it's sort of Adam Wharton who hasn't

been in there yet.

But you're leaving out Bellingham and you're leaving out Saka if you play Medowake and Rogers.

Yeah, I'm a big Wharton fan, but I certainly can't fault anything Anderson has done over these two games.

He's made a case.

Quite a few players have had a very good window, this international window, and the players who left out or who weren't there because they were injured will be looking on going, ooh, they'll be a bit worried, I'd say.

And that's good.

Yeah, it is.

And actually, we mentioned that, you know, you want to make those players hungry.

Rashford came on and looked so much hungrier and better yesterday, perhaps because Anthony Gordon had had a brilliant game out there on the left.

I hated his penalty.

I hated it so much.

Even Fournier, I hated that penalty.

But yeah, I mean, he did come on and put in a sharp cameo.

I think Baz has just alluded to it.

And I do think

probably needs to be said that Serbia were a disappointment as the team that everyone was looking at and going, oh, this is the tough game in the group.

I think that's generous.

I think that's generous.

It was not surprising what they did, right?

I mean, five, four, one and everything very, very squeezed together until they had that chance, any chance they had to stretch the pitch.

You did see in position, they tried, but there just wasn't that much there.

And I suppose that didn't come as a huge surprise when you looked at the team sheet.

Perhaps you look at the team sheet and think, well, there's a couple of players at centre back who I think are good players, Milankovic and Pavlovich.

I've long not been the biggest enthusiast of Dusan Plavic from what I've seen at Juventus.

So I didn't feel like on

the times they did come forward, I didn't think they were going to provide such a terrifying threat and they didn't.

It does need to be acknowledged that England in this group are absolutely in a different category of team to all the other teams in there with them.

They haven't got a second team in this group who you would look at and think could go to the World Cup and challenge.

And

that's where England should expect to be.

But it's still, it's not easy to break down teams that do that, that do 5-4-1 like that.

And that's where I come back to Anderson just bringing in that.

It was the speed at which things happened.

It was the speed at which those balls were played out of midfield.

It was a very clear plan.

It looked like early in the game to try to make space down the right.

You had...

Madoweke sometimes holding his position and staying a bit deeper, which was bringing Birmanchevich up the pitch.

And that was making space for Ace James or sometimes Morgan Rogers to go into.

It felt like there was a plan for breaking down a team that was going to sit deep like that.

And I thought that was one of the things that was really encouraging, one of the things that felt like a little Thomas Tuchel stamp on the situation that

he hadn't come in here not knowing what he wanted from this England team.

Yes, Serbia didn't offer much, but you still have to break those teams down.

And it seemed like there was a plan for doing that.

It's interesting you mentioned Jude Bellingham.

In In recent weeks, we've heard a bit about the Bellingham camp.

We've heard a bit about Jude Bellingham.

Obviously, he's out at the moment.

He's having that shoulder operation or had that shoulder operation.

Yeah, sorry, just to jump in, John.

Listeners might not have seen that.

I think it was Ollie Holt in the mail.

Yes, a piece about his dad sort of having an influence or something.

Yeah, his father,

Mark Bellingham, had a run-in with the sporting director at Barusha Dortmund, Sebastian Kale, over his son being substituted at halftime.

That's the other son.

Ollie Holt, a fine journalist, a schoolmate of mine, no less.

Youatonians are everywhere.

Ollie wrote a piece talking about how the Bellingham family were rather overbearing.

The father was one of these dads, you know, like your Richard Williams, your Earl Woods, that type of figure.

Jude Bellingham hasn't convinced a few.

There's a few people that are not convinced by Jude Bellingham for England.

He's done some spectacular things.

We've discussed this many times, Max.

Making him compete for his place, how would that go?

That's the interesting aspect to this.

Adam Wharton and Elliot Anderson, where you can probably, you know, that's one of those good headaches to have, you know, the great cliché.

But

this is where Tuchel's...

man management, and he is a good man manager, this is where it comes into play.

What does he do with Bellingham when you've got a player like uh morgan rogers who seems to fit so well into the system or eze could play that role as well

cole palmer yeah i mean phil foden i mean this guy uh this guy is you know booking for the bahamas next summer or whatever at the moment so the bellingham question is a huge one that he's going to have to answer now whether that whether we can refer that back to his father or not, that's a separate issue.

But

Morgan Rodgers, you can't really drop him, as Barry said, you know, on those performances.

He's such an intelligent player.

And, you know, we talk about between the lines.

And he links play between the lines in a way that I'm sorry, we haven't seen Drew Bellingham do enough of that.

And actually,

you know, the hard thing about breaking down a team, Barry, is that final pass,

the bit of skill that Rogers did to set Madowake away is the thing that we've been desperate to see that we saw, didn't see at all against Andorra.

And, you know, they can come off or they they can't, right?

But it did come off, you know.

Roy Keem compared him without getting carried away to Gaza yesterday.

Yeah, I think it's so fascinating what Tuchel does in that 10 spot now.

It is, yeah.

And he doesn't have a huge amount of time to decide what it is he wants to do.

But England last night were everything they weren't against Andorra, which sort of furthers my or cements my theory that they have a mental block against these teams they're told will be hard to break break down because last night they were they were intense ruthless quick you know really quick uh showing a turn of foot and pace that they didn't against andorra and everyone seemed to be on the same wavelength and that's really important so why

would you want to

scupper that just by crowbaring in someone who might not be on the same wavelength as everyone else and actually nikki um defensively we haven't really talked about they haven't conceded yet.

And okay, you mentioned the opposition aren't amazing, but that is still something they did concede against Senegal, didn't they?

And that friendly.

And we talked on Monday about what the back four would be, but actually, adding Liveramento, adding concert,

when Jed Spence came on as well, there's so much speed in that back four now.

And they looking, they did look incredibly solid.

Yeah, it's a pretty nice day, isn't it?

When you keep

in both your centre-backs score as well.

Concerte, I think, looked really, really comfortable.

And it is unfortunate, it's repetitive to say it, but it is difficult to know how much to take from a game where your opponent is offering so little going forward.

But I do think there's a lot to be said for partnerships, and there's a lot to be said for players who get used to playing together and build that confidence and relationship together.

And that's another of those questions, isn't it?

What happens

for John Stones if

he's coming back?

Tuchel's spoken very positively about him.

Is he someone who's going to be guaranteed that chance to return and be a starter?

I think it's going to be one of the questions that Tuchel has to think about.

But in terms of this game, nothing but encouraging signs from that group, definitely.

Yeah.

And I wonder, John, there's something interesting about if your

England team, if the players play for...

Aston Villa and Crystal Palace and Nottingham Forest, as opposed to Real Madrid and Liverpool and Man City, that you sort of, you judge them, but you sort of go in going, ah, our centre-backs are Miller and Palace.

That's not elite, but probably doesn't matter if it works.

It's funny before the game, I was sent and listed the team list and the clubs they play for, and we were laughing at it.

And it was like a sort of team list that you get in the late 80s, early 90s.

It was like a Graham Taylor selection.

You know, it's like, should the Aston Villa set?

Because...

We have become used to this dominance of players from Manchester United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, whatever, Manchester City.

The Premier League's

the Premium League in the world.

These players are high quality.

Someone like Mark Gway would be a Liverpool player if things had gone slightly differently.

But a lot of those players would be.

I mean, Morgan Rogers was a Manchester City player.

It's like the trickle down

from the clubs at the top.

There was another good thing where I saw Harry Kane give a little speech after.

Have you seen this?

Talking about how he'd obviously been at Tottenham when Jed Spence arrived and knew the journey that he'd been on to get there.

And he said he was almost tearful to see how far he'd come from the player that arrived at Tottenham, which you forget that Harry Kane, you know, is this fairly implacable in public, but I think he's quite a leader.

There's quite a

power behind the throne now.

He's going to win the World Cup.

It's so good, isn't it?

Yeah, well, look, well done to Jed Spence and everyone.

How exciting.

The open top bus.

Yeah, I can just see it.

We'll be in New York, Barry, apparently.

This is the plan.

We could be there, Barry.

You could be there to celebrate England's World Cup.

Don't worry.

You'll probably have the last laugh.

You have before.

Anyway, that'll do for part one.

Part two.

We'll begin, I'm afraid, Barry, with the Republic of Ireland's disastrous performance in Armenia.

HiPod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

Football Weekly is supported by the Remarkable Paper Pro.

Now, if you're a regular listener to this show, you'll have heard us talk before about the Remarkable Paper Pro.

We already know that Remarkable is the leader in the paper tablet category.

Digital notebooks that give you everything you love about paper, but with the power of modern technology.

But there's something new and exciting.

The remarkable Paper Pro move.

Remarkable, a brand name and an adjective, man.

Yeah, it's their most portable paper tablet yet.

It holds all your notes, to-dos, and documents, but it's smaller than a paperback and an incredible 0.26 inches thin, so it slips easily into a bag or jacket pocket.

Perfect for working professionals whose jobs take them out of the office.

Like maybe a football journalist, Barry.

Although, not like you.

A proper football journalist, man.

Exactly.

Too much technology draws us in and shuts the world out.

This paper tablet doesn't.

It'll never beat or buzz to try and grab your attention, so you can devote your focus to what or who is in front of you.

It has a display that looks, feels, and even sounds like paper.

Think and work like a writer, not a texter.

And the battery performance is amazing.

No worries about running out of power before the end of extra time.

The Remarkable Paper Pro Move can keep going for up to two weeks.

And if you do need to recharge, you can go from naught to 90% in less than 45 minutes, Barry.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

David writes, Dear Max Barry and producer Joel, I'm a huge fan of the pod.

Came to it by a sort of happy coincidence when Max joined in August 2017 after having a bit of time on my hands following a very unexpected and fairly dramatic cardiac arrest on the 11th of August, shortly after watching Arsenal 4 Leicester 3 on TV in the first match of the season.

I'm a Spurs fan, but I don't think it was connected.

Anyway, I recovered well, started listening to Football Weekly during my time off work.

Haven't missed an episode since, blind me.

I also think I've attended pretty much every live show in London during this time.

I'm, of course, coming to the Troxy on Thursday and really looking forward to it.

I'm emailing us, hoping to be able to put Max at ease regarding filling the top tier, as he seems quite anxious about it.

I was there a few days ago, the 5th of September, to see the brilliant synth pop band Hot Chip.

It was a great show, but it was clear looking up from the floor that the top tier was very sparsely populated and far from full.

It didn't detract at all from the show.

And if a band with six top 20 albums aren't filling it, then a podcast with one top 20 book question mark shouldn't feel bad.

Although, admittedly, by the second half of the hot chip show, the floor of the Troxy was a throbbing, pulsating mass of bodies writhing around ecstatically.

So, your half-time show and Wilson's anecdotes will have to go some to match that.

But I have every confidence in you all.

Thank you all for giving us such consistently terrific show.

All the best, David.

If we sell the top tier, Barry, will you writhe?

Will you pulsate?

I'm always writhing and pulsating, Max.

I can only think of of one hot chip hit, and it's a very good one.

Yeah, I was going to say, I reckon Bruin is a fan.

Well, I would say a fan, but I have seen him live and he were really, really good.

Yeah.

Fortunately, that gig has gone.

So you can't go to that.

You can't go to Football Weekly on Thursday.

We'll all be there

as well as Jonathan Wilson, Johnny Lou, Jordan's going to come down.

Paul Watson's going to come down as well.

And it's live streamed around the world.

So

you can watch it a week on catch up.

Theguardian.com/slash football weekly live.

There's some good bits, we've done some actual planning, and we'll tell Barry about that a half an hour before the show begins.

I am slightly concerned about the fact that I am not privy to any of these plans,

which suggests that it's not a stitch up, you're not being

stitched up, yeah.

Although, I think if we said, and Barry's going to get massively stitched up, I think we would fill the top tier, so maybe we should say that.

Theguardian.com/slash football weekly live, come along, please.

Right, Armenia to Ireland one After that great comeback against Hungary.

I mean,

I watched Shea Given and Kevin Doyle on RTE after the game.

Kevin Doyle looked bereft.

Shea Given said it was probably one of the worst results in our history, you know, and then listed the sort of five worst results.

There's been a few.

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Doyle said we've had a Macedonia here.

And actually, they both said, look, 2-1 defeat flattered Ireland, Berry.

It did.

Quevine Kelleher had a very busy night in the Ireland goal and had to keep the score down.

I noticed on

Blue Sky, the athletic, described this as a shock defeat.

And I have to say, I wasn't surprised.

It certainly wasn't a shock.

Maybe a little bit of a surprise

about how bad the Ireland performance was.

But it wasn't surprised that we lost because it was exactly the kind of rake I expected Ireland to step on sideshow bob style and get slapped in the face with the handle, and they duly went and did it.

We lost 2-1.

They had a goal disallowed.

And as I said, Keevian Kelleher was probably the busiest man on the pitch.

Ireland were absolutely dreadful.

They started reasonably well, created a few chances.

But as is now customary under Hymer Halgrimson,

they went behind and

give them every match they go into, they give themselves a mountain to climb.

So they were 2-0 down, pulled the goal back,

but it wasn't enough.

And Armenia were delighted to win, should have won by more.

I don't think a huge number of Ireland fans were surprised.

There are murmurings, well,

not particularly loud because I was looking at the Irish media this morning

saying maybe the time is up for Heimer Halgrimson, but I really don't know where Ireland go from here because he certainly can't be sending his team out to defend that badly.

Nathan Collins had another mayor last night.

He's one of the most experienced players on the team.

He's ever present for Brentford, but for whatever reason, he's had two shockers in this window.

Matt Doherty, another senior player, he's a shocker on

Saturday, was it?

And he was dropped for this game.

The FAI, who are largely to blame for this mess, they don't have the money to employ anyone better than Hymer Halbgramson.

He asked for a psychologist.

They said, no, we can't afford one.

This is where we are.

And I look at the players that can't get in the England squad.

I'm thinking crikey, if we had even like two or three of them, we'd be brilliant.

But

Ireland football is very much in the doldrums.

And I...

I was disappointed with this result, but I wasn't surprised by it.

If we beat Portugal home and away, we'll be fine.

I mean, but that's the thing.

The expanded World Cup, it made you think, oh, you know, teams like Ireland, that sort of size nation, should have a much better chance.

But so it feels, feels miles away, John.

And I suppose the question that we've had with the other home nations is: you know, are the players, do they have enough good players?

Because sometimes you go, look, you just sometimes don't have a generation.

But as Barry's alluded to, there's some experience there.

You know, Armenia are are

behind Kurdistan.

It was

awful.

Uh, as Barry's described that, um, you know, we talked before about Thomas Turquo talking, you know, about bringing about English football.

Haime has talked about bringing Irish football, playing to Ireland's strengths.

Now, we've laughed and joked about this.

What are those?

You know, the

corner, the throw, the knockdown from Quinny to Robbie Keene or whoever.

Ireland's use of corners and free kicks was absolutely abominable.

The long throw.

Rory DeLappe, you know, an Irishman,

basically patented the long throw.

Jake O'Brien is not Rory DeLapp.

Good lord above.

Like the throw is just not.

I mean, the throw's got to be a trajectory that...

It is there to be headed at, not this sort of looping.

It's got to be flat.

Yeah, it's got to be a flat trajectory.

That's right.

Yeah.

Barry's correct in the fact that

appointedheimer, Hal Grimson, it was a surprise.

Funny enough, I was told he was going to be appointed by someone, well, a source, shall I say, told me this, and I forwarded this information to my Irish friends, and they were like, what?

Who?

And within, you know, the news came out half an hour later or whatever, and it was like,

wow.

you know, you know,

why?

And obviously, he has a pedigree with Iceland, of course.

But he has turned up

and just thought, this is how we're going to have to do it.

The problem is that the players aren't doing the jobs that he's picked them.

As Barry says, Nathan Collins, he is one of the most inconsistent players

I think in football.

He can look absolutely calm, assured, really good at bringing out the ball.

He scored a great goal against Ukraine a few years ago, and he's a classy player.

And then he can have a performance like that.

Although Darrow Shea was just as bad in the game, it was a disastrous performance, and nobody came out of it with any credit for Ireland apart from the goalkeeper, as Barry said.

I'm sorry to pile on Ireland.

It was awful.

I would like Ireland to be at the World Cup.

Remember them in the USA back in 94?

They lit up the tournament despite some of the games being.

I mentioned this before, Ireland Norway.

If you really want to watch a bad game of football,

that Egil Olson versus Jack Charlton.

I mean,

listen, I am an advocate of getting it launched, but big load and buff.

That is just football on a level of.

But that would be amusing because they would turn up and try and play that football.

That's what Jaime's trying to do, and it's not going to work, sadly.

I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm picking on Nathan Collins because they, as John said, they were all garbage apart from Keevie and Kelleher, but he is supposed to be the calming influence, the steady hand on the tiller.

The cats him.

Yeah, it just wasn't happening for him at all.

Yeah, I think I said Armenia ranked above Kurdistan.

I meant to say Kyrgyzstan, if I pronounced that correctly.

I need I've made that mistake in print, so don't worry about that.

Yeah, Kurdistan is a roughly defined geocultural region in West Asia,

who would probably also beat Ireland, even though they don't have a seat.

Belarus-Nil Scotland, too.

It was an anti-stadium in Hungary because of Belarus's support for Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

It felt very, very COVID-y, didn't it?

I mean, it just,

when you strip football back without the crowd, it does just sound like a Sunday league game.

And so you just can't tell.

I mean, Scotland looked good, actually, in the highlights that I saw.

Yeah, they were decent, totally dominant.

One comfortably, very comfortable 2-0.

But yeah, you can hear the players shouting at each other.

You can hear the instructions coming from the touchline.

There was one stage, John McGinn was stomping up the wing and you could hear his his footsteps off the turf the kind of game scotland have lost in the past shall we say so i wasn't massively confident that they would beat belarus but they did very very comfortably and because denmark beat greece uh hammered them in athens which i think people weren't expecting given their performance against scotland earlier in this break uh it leaves that group wide open so it's been a very good window for scotland four points, the joint top.

And with Denmark, Greece, a point behind.

I think quite a few Scottish fans went to this, but they weren't allowed into the stadium.

And I know the Italy-Israel game, which we'll get to, was also played behind closed doors.

And there seemed, you know, there's a few hundred at that.

The fans that turned up seemed to be allowed in.

But what I don't understand is this game was played behind closed doors on a neutral venue through no fault of Scotland's.

So, why aren't they allowed to have a crowd in there?

I don't get it.

It seems unfair.

They find goals hard to come by, don't they?

A Scottish goal, and I was looking at the top Scottish goal scorers of all time are still Kenny Dalgleash and Dennis Law.

No Allie?

No, but Koisty's like the last good striker they had.

It's just

something's not happening there.

I mean, Chay Adams has got 10 goals for Scotland.

He is a good player actually at championship level.

It's not a bad player, Chey Adams, actually.

He's playing in Italy now, of course.

But he's not.

But he's no Dennis Law, right?

I mean, I'm going to say

Dennis Law.

He's not Kenny Cargish.

And they played fewer international, actually.

Kenny played over 100.

But it's like if Scotland had a goal scorer, we might have seen him at more championships, is what I'm saying.

It's interesting that with just with reference to Ireland, because Evan Ferguson did get the one goal from them, I know they weren't good, but he's had a really encouraging start so far at Roma.

So perhaps one little bright light for Ireland in what was apparently, I didn't see that game, unfortunately, but apparently not.

Oh, no, don't.

It wasn't unfortunate.

Don't show that to your American and Canadian dodge the bullet.

Exactly.

And one more game to watch.

Before we do Italy's win against Israel,

Norway beat Moldova 11-1.

Is that a table tennis score?

Is that a squash score?

We have asked Lars to do a one-minute voice note going through every every goal if he could so what have we learned norway good moldova bad first goal tap in from felix holmüller from a holland assist second goal moldova lose possession in their own box neat finish by holland third goal erdigo through ball for a trademark holland left-footed finish fourth goal deeper through ball from erdigo to holland this time fifth goal ball drops for erdigo in the box sixth goal cross for holland to head in from the edge of the six yard box seventh goal blocked shot drops for theodo osgard in the box consolation goal from Moldova, Leo Estegor puts a back pass into his own net for some reason.

Eighth goal, a saved Haaland header drops for Osgog in the box.

Ninth goal, Oscar Bob wins a penalty and Osgard converts.

Tenth goal, a powerful shot from Holland after a cross.

And the 11th goal, Haaland heads across the cross goal for Taylor Osgard to

convert again.

So Holland in the mood, clearly.

Moldova very bad at all the things.

They even had a player who came on who was named Ross, which seems a little bit on the nose.

And Taylor Osgard with

four goals, all kind of poachers' efforts.

But there we go.

Norway good, Moldova bad.

I did try and find some highlights, but it's one of those where I could only get someone's mobile phone footage of it.

Anyway, Taylo Asgard came off the bench and scored four, but he didn't score as many as Erling Haaland, who scored five.

Anyway, 11, 11-1.

But there are, of course, no easy games in international football.

Let's talk about Italy.

They needed a win against Israel and they got it in a mad game, Nikki.

They were what?

They were

4-2 up with four minutes left.

Then it was 4-4 and then Sandra Tanali wins it in injury time.

Yeah, so obviously this is the start.

Well,

they played Estonia a few days ago and beat them 5-0.

But this is the first window of the Genaro Cattuso time in charge.

And pretty inevitable, I think, to reach for that famous Cattuso press conference.

Sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe cheap.

But yes.

I say that a lot about things.

It was absolutely that in Microcosm, because on the one hand, in these two games, Italy have scored 10 goals, which is quite something, actually, when you look at recent history and all the concern that's been about the attack.

And it does feel like Gattuzzo has come in.

He's gone straight to this.

front two of Rottegi and Moisekin, which I really like.

And even in this game, there was some great stuff.

Actually, across these two games, Rottegi had two back heel assists there was some real swagger uh moisakin playing with real swagger as well for the national team some some really nice goals but my god were they awful at the back um they scored two own goals in this game and had another one punched into his own net by dwana rumma that was disallowed a goal down then 2-1 down against israel came back to lead 4-2 in the second half and blew that as well um and took it to go to 4-4 and then won it in injury time it was a bonkers game of football extremely entertaining game of football but my goodness, not the sort of game that makes you think this team is about to catch up to Norway in the group, because of course Norway already beat Italy 3-0, haven't dropped any of the games.

So when Catusa was appointed, one of the discussions was, can Italy catch up to Norway on goal difference?

Well, after Norway thumped Moldova 11-1, I'd say that's probably out of the window.

But if nothing else, I suppose Italy have made it look a bit more certain that they will at least be heading to a play-off for a World Cup spot.

Unfortunately, those haven't gone so well in the last eight years, have they?

So last two cycles.

Yeah, so look, Norway have 15 points.

They won all their games.

Italy have nine points from four games.

Israel have nine points from five games.

Estonia and Moldova out of the running.

Barry, you wanted to talk about Israel's participation in these qualifiers and...

you know, if they qualify for the World Cup.

Well, I don't think they should be participating in these qualifiers.

Russia are suspended from the competition because of their illegal invasion of Ukraine.

And I think Israel should be suspended as well, because under Benjamin Netanyahu and his IDF, they're committing acts of genocide in Gaza.

And

I'm aware other opinions are available.

They're not opinions I share, but I fail to see how

Russia can be suspended and Israel aren't.

And see also Belarus, who Scotland beat.

And I don't think that's a controversial opinion, but it probably will be.

And I'll be accused of all sorts of being all sorts of things.

I'm really not.

But

yeah, I don't think it's controversial to say that Israel shouldn't be in these qualifiers.

I agree with Barry on the point she makes about Netanyahu and the IDF.

Absolutely.

But the thing is, this decision is made by uefa if you look at it belarus are played scotland belarus are an ally of russia in the ukraine war they're not banned you uefa

would probably let russia back in if they could it they're a pretty uh slack organization i think the reason it there is a great debate isn't there over the fact that israel are in the uefa region to start with uh because if they're in the asian confederation you would imagine they'd have been kicked out many years ago.

It's one of those complicated things of world football governance.

I think a few people would be absolutely delighted that Italy won that game and that Israel are unlikely to be at the World Cup because that would cause all types of trouble.

This is what Alexander Schefferin told Politico.

He said

regards Israel.

First of all, what's happening with civilians there is personally hurting, killing me.

He said, from the other point of view, I'm not a supporter of banning the athletes because what can an athlete do to their government to stop the war?

It's very, very hard.

Now, the ban for Russian teams is, I think, three and a half years.

Did the war in Ukraine stop?

It didn't.

Regarding FIFA, their General Secretary Matthias Graftrom addressed the 75th Congress, said

the work of the Governance Audits and Compliance Committee and the work of the Disciplinary Committee remains ongoing.

This is regards Palestine, FA calling for Israel to be banned.

They are, quote, working diligently to conclude what is clearly a highly complex topic.

Critics of them accuse them of just kicking the can down the road because that's not the first time they've said we've had a meeting to have a meeting to have a meeting.

The Palestinian FA have said the number of footballers killed or died from starvation has reached 421, including 103 children.

According to the PFA, 288 sports facilities have been damaged or reduced to rubble across Gaza and the West Bank, from stadiums and training grounds to gyms and clubhouses.

The vast majority, 268 were in Gaza, 20 were in the West Bank, with about half serving football directly.

And latest reports are that more than 60,000 people have been killed in Gaza as a result of

Israeli actions there.

Anyway, as Barry said,

other views are available.

I'm sure we'll get some interesting feedback on that.

But yeah, I share your views, Barry.

Anyway, that'll do for part two.

Part three, we'll begin with, as we all predicted, Ange Postakoglu being the manager of Nottingham Forest on the 10th of September 2025.

Hi, Pod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Rigabutt says, Can we get a voice note from Johnny Lew about how happy he is to have Ange back managing in the Premier League?

Jamie says, Why can't we Forest fans have nice things?

Elwood, how many goals will Forest concede this season?

Yes.

Notting Forest released their announcement at one in the morning, which is when you normally release these kind of people.

It was quarter past 12.

Oh, was it quarter past 12?

My apologies.

Nuno Esperito Santo, sacked by Forrest.

And Posta Koglu hired Forrest Statement, thanked Nuno for his contribution during a very successful era at the Citiground, said he would always hold a special place in their journey.

It's been very public about his relationship with Evangelos Maranakis, that has deteriorated over the summer, and disagreements with Edu, the new sporting director, as well.

He took over in December 2023, kept Forest up last season, took them to seventh, their highest finish since 94-95, qualified for Europe for the first time in 30 years.

Built a team, John, on defensive solidity,

quick on the break, but very hard to break down.

Here comes Anis Pastakoglu.

I mean, if you're not a Nottingham Forest fan, it's all

very exciting.

If you are, it's agony, right?

It could be golden, yeah.

First thing, Milenkovich, judging by last night in a high Ange line, mate, is going to be quite amusing.

Murillo alongside him as well.

We're going to have to.

This is the fun that Ange is going to bring back to the Premier League.

Talking of Evangelos Marinakis, not afraid of slaying sacred cows, is he, really?

Steve Cooper, idolised by Nottingham Forest fans.

Goodbye, Steve.

Nuno, beloved.

You know,

this charming man.

He completely won over the public.

He's sort of the best manager they've had since Clough, right?

Is that who else is there?

Billy Davis did well.

I don't know.

I think people would say Steve Cooper gave him

so long.

It was such a real achievement.

And, you know, the love for him is still there.

It's one of those inside football, inside baseball things, isn't it?

That a lot of it's to do with agents, you know.

Edu is an acolyte of Kirja Ramchin.

Nuno is, of course, the first ever client of George Mendez, which means he'll probably be okay for getting a job soon.

You know, the shift to Edu meant a shift in essentially the agencies that deal with Evangelos Marinakis.

That's where the heart of the quarrel between Nuno

and Edu.

And that's where,

and such is the way these days that the chairman, well, the president, actually, as I've noticed, Ange Postakoklu calls him, which he did call him over the summer.

The president makes the decision to stick with the sporting director rather than the manager.

So therefore, we have Ange.

I'm not quite in Johnny's camp with Ange, but he did get so baited, so angry, so miserable towards the end of his time at Sottenham.

Has he had long enough off to be restored to the sunny Lou Carpenter guy we saw two or three years ago?

Or are we going to get this sort of slightly morose, miserable, defensive Ange?

The last eight or nine months of that Spurs reign.

I mean, all right, he won a trophy, all that.

It was pretty tough going.

If you ever went to the press conference, it's pretty tense.

And, you know, this, and we knew this guy wanted to kick back and whittle some, but it just won't happen to him.

Yeah, I mean, I suppose you can't, I probably can't dismiss winning a trophy and all that for Tottenham.

I think Tottenham fans know for sure

that, well, that's true, but

Tottenham fans know that Forrest will come to Whitehart Lane.

I think it's quite late in the season and absolutely play them off the park, absolute and ball, and hammer them.

I don't know what do you, what do you?

I should just check Billy Davis, Notting Forest record.

Yes, I shouldn't have mentioned that.

You know, that was that was really plucking a name out of the sky.

Please delete from the record.

My apologies.

Uh, Nikki, what do you make of this whole situation?

I mean, definitely fascinated to see which trophy that uh Forest is going to win next season because, as Ange told us with great delight, in the spring, he always wins in his second season.

So they're on for something, aren't they?

But the championships,

maybe maybe i mean it just feels so absolutely extraordinary doesn't it when you look at what nuno achieved taking over a team that was 17th i think they'd won what was it one in 13 games before he took over kept them up that season and uh and then takes them to in the end the europa league but for such a long time last season being in in the champions league fight and uh and and that jump in such a short space of time we think about the players that he um brought on and and made better in his time in charge i mean we were raving

this podcast.

Well, I've been raving about Elliot Anderson, this podcast.

And I think about, as part Nuno, isn't it?

That's part of that he did and the work he did.

And there was this extraordinary photo after the,

in fact, after the

Serbia England game of Morgan Gibbs White and Elliot Anderson and Nikola Milenkovich all outside the locker room in a little huddle.

And you think, well, pretty obvious what they're talking about.

So it does feel pretty,

I don't know, to me it feels damning of the the club that they've allowed the situation to unfold this way.

That you had a manager who'd done such a brilliant job to, I don't know, slip away from you is the right way, but be thrown away so quickly because of going out to get a sporting director without checking how that was going to thinking about how that was all going to work together.

Clearly, Maranakis is his own man who's not afraid to take his own decisions.

I think that's probably about the most

neutral way you could put it.

There's certainly some

strong feelings about him, aren't there?

And I think this is not going going to

soften any of those.

But

I don't know.

I think

it feels like it's going to be an atmosphere that becomes very toxic very quickly if Ange isn't able to walk in there and start winning right away because of all the goodwill that the fans have.

And I think clearly some of the players as well have for Nuno.

It's interesting, you know, you mentioned Malenkovich there, John.

But like Chris Wood has been huge for Forrest, but he's, you know, Angelot's a centre-forward that can run 25 kilometers and and chase down every single.

And that's not Chris.

That's not Chris Wood's game at all, right?

It's interesting.

I mean, the midfield, I think, could kind of work, right?

Gibbs White and Anderson.

Gibbs White can certainly press, can't he?

Yeah, he's very good at it.

Andre's inherited a squad that is not custom designed to his needs.

I suppose the one thing is that Nuno managed to to change that squad and fit it to you.

It's a real test of Andrew's a manager.

Now, the difference in between those two is Nuno is a pragmatic enough manager to make, do, amend, make the adjustments that's needed and get the best from the players.

Ange has one style of play, and that's what he wants to do.

It doesn't really make much sense apart from the sort of, I don't know, who knows who in football, really, doesn't it?

I mean, you know, he's an Australian Greek manager going to work for a Greek billionaire.

You know, and that's, you know, that's interesting.

Fair enough.

I don't have any issue with

that.

that.

But I think some of the Forest fans might do.

The thing is, what you've got to do at Forest, Forest is a club where the fans are...

If you go to the city ground, it's a great atmosphere.

Forest forest fans are inherent to what Forest are about.

They're not one of these clubs that

it can exist

off its foreign following or anything like that.

It's about

the collective of the club.

And those fans have got to be on your side because the city ground has got to be a fearsome place to go.

So, Ange has got to do some severe PR work, is what I'm saying.

And she's good at that.

He is good at that.

And I think, I mean, he did change for the Europa League, right?

You know, like Tottenham Man United, they absolutely parked the bus.

That was Nuno Football almost.

Maybe he just plays his Europa League style.

It's possible, yeah.

And he's not an idiot.

Like, he's been successful everywhere, And, right?

He's he's, you know, he's not an idiot.

And, and,

but, I, uh, it will be absolutely fascinating to see how it works out.

Timmy says, Prayers for Baz.

This is your worrying news, Barry.

As it's been reported in the last couple of days that Lucas Fabianski is back at the London stadium, set to start talks to

resign as the third choice keeper.

You thought you were safe, but you're not, I'm afraid.

This is Romandy says, High football weekly, long-time listener, first-time writer, and all that.

Having been lucky enough to have a daughter by IVF three years ago, my wife and I have made the decision that one child is enough for us.

Why or why would you want want more?

Oh, Andy, that's a good question.

Anyway, on Wednesday, I shall be joining the select band of Football Weekly Brethren undergoing a vasectomy while listening to Barry's smooth tones to help keep me calm.

My plan is to hold back on Monday's pod, as I imagine you'll do one on Wednesday after the England game, which will be too late to listen to during the procedure.

The downside of this means I won't be able to come to the live show this week as I'll be bedbound for a few days.

It does mean I'll be primed to join the billions around the globe in watching the live stream with ice packed down my underwear and hoping I can get to a show in the not-too-distant future.

Look forward to it.

I I was wondering, Max, is part of the fact that you've not told Barry, maybe I'm spooning surprise here, is that he's going to have a live vasectomy.

I'll tell you what, John, I don't need a vasectomy to avoid having children.

That'll fill the top tier, won't it?

I find abstinence works for me, involuntary abstinence.

All I'm hearing from Andy are excuses.

We've got a whole top tier.

We could, you know, he could come along pushing his swollen gonads in a wheelbarrow.

We can

arrange a chairlift of some sort for him, and he can have the whole top tier to himself.

He can sit in one chair with his swollen plums hanging over the arm in the next one.

Anyway, on that note, it seems like a nice time to end it, doesn't it?

Uh, thanks, everybody.

Uh, thank you, John.

Thank you, Max.

Thank you for having me.

Uh, thanks, Nikki.

Thanks, cheers, Barry.

Yeah, and he will, of course, have to buy two tickets if that's

one for each plum.

Three tickets.

Triple Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

We'll be back tomorrow.

This is The Guardian.