Manchester is blue and Arsenal brush Postecoglou aside: Football Weekly

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Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Manchester City comfortably win the derby at the Etihad.

They were just better in all parts of the game that matter, i.e., attacking and defending.

Haaland was excellent, Doku too.

And there was one brilliant save from the diminutive Donna Rummer on his debut.

United, meanwhile, were okay at times and not at others.

And Postakogli begins his Nottingham Forest reign with defeat at the Emirates.

No shame in that.

Arsenal were very good.

Eze and Madueke, both brilliant.

Long throws are back.

Brentford equalising right at the end against Chelsea.

Graham Potter's really Graham Pottering it up at West Ham's first.

Have a lovely afternoon in East London.

Liverpool are the only team with a 100% record.

A handy ball from Hannibal in injury time.

Hashtag sadface.

And then there's a goal for Boltimada on his debut.

Another win for Bournemouth.

An agonising last-minute own goal for Leeds.

Also, the end of Ruben Sellers at Shefford United.

One step closer to the end for Russell Martin, you presume.

Your questions?

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Galacticos are out.

Barry Glendenning, hello.

Hi, Max.

Welcome, Jonathan Wilson.

Morning.

How are you doing?

I'm all right.

Thank you.

And good morning to Lars Ivertson.

Hello, Max.

Let's start the Etihads.

Manchester City 3, Manchester United Nil.

Before we talk about the game, Barry, obviously, this isn't a boxing podcast.

But it was a very sad day for Manchester and for Manchester City because of the tragic death of Ricky Hatton.

He was a massive city fan, City wrote.

Hatton wore sky blue shorts and used Blue Moon as his walkout song throughout his career 2008 he fulfilled another dream when he fought juan lascano at the yeti had stadium you were you were on air i was off yesterday on the radio but you were on air when the news broke that

yeah um very sad news hatton as you say was a massive city fan uh he was loved by everyone in manchester i think he had wayne rooney bring his belt out before one fight when he was manchester united player i think and i would imagine there was a lot of sadness at the Etihad yesterday after the news of his death broke.

And

yeah,

it's really

sad.

I don't know what else to say.

No, no, no, no.

And

yeah, I interviewed him a few times and was always incredibly

funny and interesting and nice.

you know and those things are quite important yes

i i was really surprised by how emotional pep Guardiola was about it afterwards.

And he said that, you know, he's been in City 10 years now and he's been involved in a lot of commemorations of various people.

But he said that he had met Ricky Hatton and had felt sort of great warmth towards him.

He said that he felt that was the most emotional he'd been in a footballing minute silence at City.

And I think

they kind of messed it up.

And I don't understand how football does this when

they've done this so often, but it wasn't clear when the Minutes Applause was starting.

so fans started it earlier than was intended the players weren't sort of in posit in position so they sort of had to rush in anthony taylor then i think had this sort of you know awkward decision he was meant to start with a blow of his whistle but then would people think that was the end so he didn't do anything he which i think was probably the right thing um and it was very noticeable that although ricky hatton was a city fan united fans were just as vociferous in their appreciation so it was it was a very moving

it turned out to be about 90 seconds probably rather than the minute yeah so yeah um, to the game itself, um,

it was pretty convincing last in the end for City, wasn't it?

Yeah, it was.

I thought the first half was just kind of a bit scrappy from everyone involved, and I think this was a theme over the weekend that we might return to.

I do, do wonder if these sort of uh weekends immediately after an international break are a little bit affected by you know, players only came back late in the week and and because there were, I thought it was quite a few performances over the weekend where teams did not look at their best.

And I thought the first half, neither team looked very impressive.

But City obviously went ahead.

Aling Holland back doing Alan Holland things.

And that

first goal, I think, is kind of interesting because

of all the stuff that wasn't going right for City last season, I thought one of it was that the sort of supporting cast and attack were not providing enough in terms of output.

Dooku to an extent, but especially Foden, I think they said on the commentary that that was his first goal or assist in the last 11 appearances for City.

I mean, please correct me if that's wrong, but Foden certainly has been going through a stretch of not having a great output, and it's been hurting City a little bit.

So great assist by Doku and a good goal by Foden is a big boost for everyone involved.

But what I thought was really interesting, and it's maybe something Wilson's better positioned to speak about, was the way the second half went.

Because City sat back.

City sat back and we're quite comfortable letting United have the ball in a way that we haven't seen a lot from Guardiola, but I feel like we've seen it more often recently.

And I think there there is a broader sort of, there seems to be a broader shift there of him fully embracing that having possession is not always the correct solution to every single situation.

But they looked very comfortable.

And I was kind of disappointed by United not challenging them more when they were kind of allowed to have the ball and given sort of challenge to go at City.

Is that right, Wilson?

Is it sort of Pep, Guardi, Joe Zayla, or Conter or whatever?

I mean, you know, that's clearly right.

They clearly did sit back.

They were quite happy to let United have the ball.

United,

apart from that and Burmo Volley, where Donovan makes a very good save,

United really created very, very little.

And this is part of the problem with United.

And

I've now done, there's only two United games.

It feels like more than that.

But I keep hearing United's...

Journalists who cover United, United fans say, oh, actually, I thought they were all right.

And you can say, oh, well, they were all right in part.

And I thought the first sort of, basically before they went behind, their pressing was causing city problems.

Rodri looked really surprisingly shaky.

Bernardo Silver gave the ball away a couple of times, which is not normal.

So you just thought, yeah, maybe there is something there for them.

And I was at the city game at Brighton as well.

And the first half was quite similar to that, where

it wasn't city as we remember them.

It was quite scrappy.

There were passes being misplaced.

Reinders had a terrible first half, was pinging the ball out of place, even every time he got it.

But then United's, there's just something not right there.

They just don't,

there's not a sharpness about them.

So if you look at the first goal, all 11 United players are in their defensive third of the pitch.

There's all the outfield players are in a sort of 15-yard band between the edge of the box and, well, 33 yards out, I guess it was 15 yards.

You think, well, how do you concede in that position?

Or if you are going to concede, it's got to be something unusual or special.

And yet, when Doki gets the ball, he's probably got six yards of space, seven yards of space on all sides.

And he's found this square.

So he's facing away from goal, and to his right ahead of him is Ugate.

To his right behind him is Shaw.

To his left behind him is Dorgu.

To his left ahead of him is Jallow.

And was that that square?

And he's in the middle of it.

And he's allowed to move to the top of the square, so furthest from the United goal, takes the pass.

He's under no pressure as he turns.

He then has, by this point, probably seven or eight yards of space to accelerate into.

So suddenly he's accelerating at Luke Shaw

on the edge of the box.

Luke Shaw's static.

And so they've created a situation a bit like a break, a bit like where you've had a player's really able to run at a defender.

How has that happened?

I mean, if it happens on the break, fair enough.

How has it happened when you have 11 players behind the ball?

That's just awful marking.

And then, yeah, Docu gets past him.

Magati does get past to block the first cross.

The second cross comes in.

And there's Phil Foden in the box also in yards and yards of space.

And I'm not sure Bayer Deere covers himself in Glory.

I think he's a bit flat-footed.

It's a good header because there's not much pace on the cross, and he's guided across goal.

It's not a great header.

I think a more alert keeper or a keeper who's a bit more on his toes would have got to it.

So it just felt like a goal that United gave City.

It was just incredibly sloppy, incredibly diffident.

And then, obviously, they're chasing the game and they leave space behind them and kept giving the ball away.

And City ended up having not just the two goals, but another two one-on-ones where they, you know, they hit the post of one of them and uh was it rinders put the other shot just wide yeah so it was it was three nil going on five nil without city really playing particularly well they played okay in doku foden holland all had good games and it was good to see foden

back i mean i think that's his i think he scored a couple of goals in the club world cup i think that was his first premier league goal since january but i i do think that

You can't take United seriously anymore.

They're not a big team.

They're not a, you know, if you beat United, well, you should beat United.

If you don't count, if you only count the 17 teams who've been in the Premier League the whole time that Amrim has been manager, United is 17th of the 17 if you drop a table from when he took over with 31 points of 31 games, which is an average of 1.00.

I did enjoy the square, the player within the square.

We don't have time for every goal for you to say, well, when Zubamendi gets it, there's a hexagon of forest players.

And here they are.

And also, it's worth saying, you know, an accelerating Doku is definitely faster than a static Luke Shaw.

What did you make of it all, Barry?

When we did our pre-season preview, I

couldn't decide whether Amarim

is this genius who needs more time or is the monorail guy from the Simpsons promising stuff he's never going to deliver.

And it seems to be a case now that United

aren't good enough.

to trouble anyone because as Wilson said

City were decent yesterday but they didn't have to do much to

swat this united team aside but they they also don't seem to be quite bad enough for it to be obvious the manager needs to be relieved of his position so they're occupying this middle ground of meh where amarim is allowed to keep bumbling along he again insisted after the game yesterday that

it's not his system that is the problem.

And maybe it isn't, but what is a problem is he doesn't have players suited to play the system he wants to play.

Bruno Fernandez was all over the place yesterday because he's in this withdrawn role that doesn't suit him.

All three of the goals United conceded were very avoidable.

We've we've heard about the first one,

the second one,

Lenny Euro was weak, Harland was able to get the wrong side of show

to score, and then the the third one was because of Harry Maguire giving the ball away, basically.

So, I don't know.

To be fair, Harry Maguire, he's made an interception because

he was a gave a ball away.

I think it was Luke Shaw gives the ball away.

Well, it was basically by Inder got them in trouble playing out from the back when he probably shouldn't have.

But it was avoidable anyway.

So there were three avoidable goals which United were not able to avoid.

And

City just didn't have to play particularly well to

beat them very convincingly.

Yeah, I do want to also circle back to the first goal.

Whilst Doku was busy in Jonathan Wilson's sort of square of destiny out wide,

you see in the middle,

it's Fernandez who's the closest man to Foden, and Foden is just kind of sauntering forward.

And you can just see it doesn't occur to Bruno Fernandes to track that run into the box at all.

Now, there were other players, like Wilson says, they had 11 men behind the ball, but it is a consequence of Bruno being used in that withdrawn central position that sometimes you got to track your man, sometimes you got to track your run into your own box, and it just doesn't seem to come natural to him because that's not what he does.

And I don't necessarily want to pick on Bruno Fernandes.

I think like last season,

it's interesting last season, like he had really impressive stats for like chances created.

He played the most key passes in the league.

He had, you know, it was one of those.

Last season could have been one of the great sort of creative seasons for Bruno Fernandes if United had strikers who could shoot straight, but but they don't.

So he is still very good at what he does in attack, but he's being used in this role where there are more defensive responsibilities and it doesn't come natural to him.

It's not what he spent his career doing.

And you can see on that goal, he doesn't follow Foden.

Foden scores.

And Bruno immediately turns around and shouts at the defenders around him, which is like...

No, that was you.

You were the problem there.

And that must drive you mad if you're one of his teammates as well.

Sure.

I mean, I guess it's a point of,

is it his fault that he's been put in a position?

Yeah.

Or should you, should you be good enough at tracking a run, whoever, whoever you are.

I mean, interestingly, Haaland was defensively very good last.

It was a good day for the Haaland is good brigade, of which I believe you are part, you know.

Yeah, but it's like

I've reached the point now with Erling Haaland then when he has, if he has a period where he's not playing quite at his best, or he has a game where he misses some chances, and people start asking questions and people start making the points that, oh, he's not as good as blah, blah, blah.

I just can't be asked to phone him a counter-argument anymore because there's no point.

You just wait until the next game.

Everyone who wants to criticize him and be negative about him for some reason,

there's no point arguing against him.

You can just shut up and wait for him to prove it on the pitch because he will every single time.

He's always going to come back and score a ton of goals.

He's always going to make whatever critics he has look stupid.

It's just what he does, and it's completely inevitable.

He does seem to particularly enjoy playing against Man United.

He did say that when he was presented at City.

they asked him which game he was looking forward to the most, and he did say the derby.

Now, he's played six games in the Premier League against Manchester United for City and scored eight goals.

So clearly,

those are games he quite enjoys.

And you're right, he was completely on it.

He was all over the place in terms of like defending.

It wasn't one of those games when you look at Holland's touch maps and there's like four touches in the opposing box and nothing else.

Like he was putting in a huge shift.

And yeah, he's very good.

Yeah.

Arsenal three, nothing of Forest 0.

And begins his reign at Forest with a 3-0 defeat.

I mean,

this was a tough game for Forest.

And actually, Barry, Arsenal were very good, I thought.

Yeah, they were.

It was a very straightforward win for them.

I don't think we can lay the blame for this at Ange's door.

He had one training session with his new players.

But it was very impressive from Arsenal.

probably more so because

they left several key players

were either injured or on the bench, and they still got the job done with an absolute minimum of fuss.

I suppose the only downside for them was the injury to Martin Odegaard.

He did his shoulder again, and that can be a real tricky one to get right.

He may end up having to have surgery, I'd say, because if he doesn't, it's just going to keep popping out.

Noni Manueke had a great game up against Murato, who was playing out of position at left back.

I mean, again, this business of

on-loan players not being allowed to play against their parent clubs, I think is ridiculous.

If that rule wasn't in place, Oleksander

Zinchenko could have played at left back and would probably have done a better job.

But yeah, it could scarcely have been a more straightforward win for Arsenal.

And it served to show their strength in depth, a strength and depth they didn't have last season.

Hopefully I'm not the only one who's that's that's how I've learned that Oleksandr Zinchenko's online at Nalting and Forest.

The front three looked really exciting, Wilson, of Eze, Madweke, and Yokoro.

Yeah, they did.

I mean, I think Eza's second half, particularly, looked really good.

There's a little bit of work to be done in that Eza likes to drift in field more than Martinelli does.

I think that's probably actually a positive, but they've just got to work out how to use that.

So, yeah, I mean, this was again,

it's a little bit like with Sydney, it's a very impressive performance, but

the opponents weren't great.

But it is the sort of win that if you're going to win the league, you need to get probably 10 or dozen of in a season.

And it's something Arsenal have struggled with slightly.

They often seem to make a fuss over what should be quite regulation wins.

Well, this was just very straightforward.

They had loads of options.

I think Yuko has, because he's a little bit less refined, missed the point Barney was making in his piece, because he's a little bit less refined than some of the others.

That's actually good.

That's the sort of grit that creates the oyster, uh, creates the pearl, even in the oyster.

Doesn't create an oyster, noise is already there.

There's a grit that creates the pearl in the oyster that that at the minute looks looks really useful for them.

And the fact they could do it while leaving Declan Rice out and give him a bit of a break, I think, is

hugely positive for them.

Mourinho started ahead of Rice.

Arteta said Mourinho is in a high emotional state after scoring four goals for Spain.

I want to use that.

And I was like, we don't want Arsenal getting too emotional with Wilson on a pod on Monday.

It can only end in disaster.

Now, the Zubamendi's first goal is a brilliant strike last, but is it allowed to be brilliant if it gets a tiny deflection?

Yes.

Because it's so upsetting that that gets a nick off it because it does take away from the purity of the brilliance.

That had literally never occurred to me, but sure.

I mean, of course, it's a good strike.

Does it really affect it?

Do you think so?

Oh, massively.

Like, I think if there's a tiny deflection on a strike, you know, it instantly

can't be goal of the month.

Okay.

I would say.

Completely.

I I mean, the strike is brilliant, whatever.

The aesthetic quality of the goal is diminished by the deflection.

That's interesting that it never crossed your mind, Lars, but that's okay.

No, no, well, I mean, there are many things that don't cross my mind.

My mind is a very unusual place.

I mean, we've got a lot to get through.

I'm not going to start listing the things that haven't crossed my mind.

Also, it would be hard to list the things that haven't crossed your mind because they haven't crossed my mind.

So it's just philosophically very difficult.

I'm really sorry to have added something that now has crossed your mind.

Before that was just beautifully, peacefully blank.

I'm going to be thinking of that all week.

I mean, I won't be able to find it.

No, no, I mean, it's sort of immediate.

It's my first thought.

That was my first thought of the whole game is this beautiful strike has been ruined by a tiny deflection.

It's like Figo's goal against England in year 2000.

Yeah.

Which should have been a great goal, but isn't because it gets a little bit agreed.

And she said, you only have to look at how we performed last year.

They're very disappointed.

Obviously, I've got to understand that they're human beings.

And a week ago, their world was very different to what it is now.

Whenever a manager is looking tanned and well-rested, it means he's out of a job, so I'd rather not be looking so well and pale.

Still, I mean, look, we discussed it last week, Barry.

There's not a lot to add to this from Ange's perspective, is there?

No, um,

he did stress that

he was asked how long it would take for him to mold this forest team in the way he wants them to play, and he announced it would be Wednesday.

So,

no, no fanny it about from Ange.

We'll see what they're made of on Wednesday.

I'm not sure they're playing, but yeah, looking forward to it.

I think that is a Carabao Cup game or is it European?

Yeah, Swansea City away in the League Cup.

So yeah, we'll find out.

Anyway, that'll be for part one.

Part two will begin at Brentford.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

I just say thank you to everyone who came to the live show.

Amazing that we filled that top tier.

And we appreciate that you paid your hard-earned money.

And, you know, on a day of a tube strike, managed to fill the whole place.

So that is very kind.

Or if you've watched on the live stream, thank you as well.

We had a lovely time.

Brentford 2, Chelsea 2.

We have mentioned long throws being back.

Brentford are the best in the league at them.

That is the seventh goal they've scored from long throws since the start of last season, five more than any other Premier League team.

Keith Andrews said, I feel there's a little bit of snobbery in the game around scenarios like that.

If the big boys do it, then it seemed to be accepted.

And had previously said that.

Part of the reason for signing Coyote from Fiorentina was he had a long throw.

Did they do that?

You know, swing his arms back and forth on the medical?

I think it might, the snobbery he speaks of might be more to do with the fact that Stoke kind of cornered the market in long throws under Tony Pulis and with Rory DeLap.

And there was a snobbery about Stoke.

So I don't think it was about the long throws specifically, more Stoke and the way.

Arsen Wenger used to very publicly look down his nose at them and sniff about their robustness.

No,

I think there is a snobbery.

I think, you know, being a Cambridge fan, right, it's all part of long ball football, right?

I mean, I know it's a separate thing, but like the sort of get the ball in the mixer.

There is definitely a snobbery about that within the game.

And it seems, you know, it's score a goal however way you can, but, you know, there are the sort of purists who are like, this, you know, we want to play the beautiful game.

I think there's snobbery about hoofball in open play.

That I'll get along with.

If teams just whack it forward all the time to get it in the mixer, people probably don't love that.

But I get the sense that, like, the set piece, the analysts,

the setback, the set piece guy at Arsenal's guy is on mural now.

I mean, it doesn't get trendier than that.

If you get an Arsenal mural, you've cracked it culturally.

And I would, I get the Tony Pulis-Stoke thing, but I would take issue then with the word re at the moment because Tony Pulis left Stoke in 2013.

This is not at the moment.

It's a very long time ago.

I think Keith Andrews is wrong.

I think set pieces and long throws phenomenally trendy right now.

they're all the rage they'll be doing them in the clubs all over dolston

and the bbc long throws that led to goals uh have increased from 0.03 percent in 2020 21 to 0.38 percent in 24 25 which is a bit of a leap isn't it are they harder to defend than corners wills i think they're different because the trajectory is slower and loopier.

So I think the problem with them is that your corners tend to be whipped in.

So if you get ahead on it, it's going to clear the box.

Even if it glances off your head, it's going to clear the box on the far side.

Whereas a leapy throw, it's quite hard to get the power to clear the box or can be.

I'm sure that people can adapt to it.

It's just trendy though it may be, it has not been trendy for long enough for defending against it to become of the level it is for defending corners.

So, yeah, I think that ball just sort of floating down in the six-yard area in a crowded box when sort of grappling is now, although they're supposed to be cracking down on it, is way more pronounced than it was even 10 years ago.

In the old days, keepers could just sort of clear people out the way and claim that.

They can't really do that now because people are much more prepared to sort of battle and fight for it.

So, yeah, I think it's the fact that there's the lack of pace on the ball makes it hard to get it out of the box.

Although DeLap had a very sort of flat

trajectory,

that was hard to defend from that.

And I guess it's hard to train,

you know, it's hard to practice defending them unless you have someone who has one, unless you have to bring in Steve Backley or someone into training.

You could presumably, I mean, it's less complicated than the bowling machine, right?

You've got Merlin, which replicates various spin bowlers.

You can surely replicate Coyote or Shada.

I mean, it seemed to me they had quite different trajectories.

I think, so Coyote's was,

oh, hang on, I can't remember which way around it was.

One of them was flatter than the other.

Yeah, this was a Shada one, wasn't it?

It was a Shada one they scored with.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Shada one that led to the goal.

Yeah.

And it led to that very good chance, it almost went straight in 10-15 minutes before that, which obviously wouldn't be a goal.

I mean, it wasn't entirely clear whether somebody at the near post had just got a slight touch, and then Besanche has to sort of bat it away.

Yeah, Wilson, I wonder if there was a if you knew the history of, I mean, sort of Andy, pre-Andy Legg, who is a decade older than Dave Chanoner.

So for me, sort of Andy Legg is the originator, but I just wonder if there was a Hungarian.

Well, even better than that, there was a Sutherland player.

Okay, cool.

So in the 1890s, Sutherland's captain, I think probably the greatest British footballer of all time, although he never gets the credit, a bloke called Huey Wilson.

And he pioneered long throws.

But in those days,

he was so good at taking long throws, they changed the law and how you had to take them.

He would just lob it one-handed.

Oh, okay.

So he would lob it one-handed from inside his own half into the opposition box.

And they said, all right, maybe we're going to make you have to have two hands on the ball.

So until Coyote...

Did that end his career?

Did that end his career?

No, because he was an excellent centre half.

He was a really, really good player.

Yeah, until Coyote forces a law change, I don't think you can say Coyote is fit to lace Huey Wilson's boots.

Well, interestingly, Rory DeLap

used to throw it one-handed.

So he would hold the ball with one hand and just rest the other on it.

But all the power was generated by one hand.

So it was ostensibly a one-handed throw.

In the Soccer M Glorious, we made some special towels for Rory DeLap to dry the the ball, and they were banned.

They were banned by the Premier League.

I mean, there was a football match as well as this long throw, which was quite an interesting game, I thought, Lars.

I don't know if it do you think a draw was a fair result?

Chelsea had more possession and kind of

had a number of shots, but it didn't feel like they had like massive chances in this game.

I thought this was really like positive for Brentford, who haven't, I haven't always been super impressed with all the in every game they've played so far this season.

I thought this was, they looked more like the Brentford of old here.

They were they were solid and I guess Chelsea had to rotate a little bit with their squad and make some selection choices that we maybe weren't expecting with people having traveled from international duty and this sort of thing and they looked like they were not quite at us.

But

yeah.

It's a bit of a bit of sorry that was that was a bit of crap answer, but I didn't.

No, no, that's all right.

No, it was just it I didn't have a very strong take on this game if you want to go.

Maybe it hadn't crossed your mind.

I don't know.

But one of many things that haven't crossed my mind.

I mean it is worth saying Jordan henderson's that's one of those passes he played that he can't that he can't do so could never play for ringdon but it was a lovely ball for shader and actually both both the chelsea finishes like the finish from palmer is so beautiful and cosedos uh was a great strike and it didn't take a nick off anyone so uh it does qualify uh for goal of the month uh west hand nil spurs three

this is very one-sided i mean thomas frank we've sort of talked about his set piece legacy already but but suddenly wilson spurs are very dangerous from corners yes and there was this is something jack Pitt Brooke pointed out.

He was out of the game.

He was obviously in the press coverage when it happened.

But Graham Potter saying, I thought we defended the first nine corners quite well.

He's very much in 1976.

Nobody dies.

That is funny.

Yeah, I mean, I thought they were very, you talked about grappling, actually.

You know, that disallowed goal, Wilson, from Romero, which obviously I'm biased, but you're just going, oh, this is...

This law and this sort of clampdown on fouls in the box is so ridiculous because there are just so many of them.

I don't think it's easy.

I don't know what it is, but it feels like it's got worse since the clampdown at the start of the season.

Well, yeah,

the problem is that

its application is always going to be arbitrary.

So you had in the Sutherland-Brentford game before the international break, Brentford were given a penalty for what I think probably was a foul from a corner.

But then it was almost like Anthony Taylor felt, better even that up because there's loads of grappling going on.

So Sutherland got a slightly softer one, which again was probably a foul, but you get away with that nine times out of ten.

And here, the Romero one was by no means the worst example of it.

I mean, Spurs should have had a penalty for something, was way worse than that a few minutes later.

So I guess to an extent, all laws are applied slightly arbitrarily.

And, you know, you don't say just because we don't catch all murderers doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a law against killing.

But this feels particularly arbitrary.

And there is going to be an example where it really has a huge impact on a big game and everybody's going to get very upset and worked up about it.

But I'm not really sure what the answer is.

No, but also, you know, pushing in the box is more important than murder, so we should take it more seriously.

The shove in question was originally by a West Ham player, Fernandez, and it sort of caused this domino effect, which

led to Kyle Walker Peters falling over.

So,

yeah, it shouldn't have been ruled out.

I mean, it was a very easy win for Spurs.

West Ham were comically bad.

The opening goal, the Papisar header, he was completely unmarked.

Didn't have to jump.

Didn't have to move.

Just stood there.

It hit his head.

It was a bit like

the own goal that leads scored.

He just stood there.

The ball hit his head and went in.

Thomas Suchek, then getting sent off for that foul on Polino.

Thoroughly deserved red, I thought.

And there was no way back for West Ham after that.

They've now conceded 11 in

four games, and they're a mess.

Jared Bones, the only bright spark you can see there.

We all thought Lucas Paquetta would be a man reborn after having that gambling charge, having been acquitted or found not proven.

He's not playing well at all.

And

I was reading Jacob Steinberg's match report, and you could just feel the rage.

He's very, you know, you could tell it was written by a West Ham fan.

He was, yes, he's so angry.

And the thing about West Ham and Potter that kind of would worry me for them is

the nature of the goals they're conceding, right?

So far the season, opening game, they lost 3-0 to Sunderland, two goals from crosses into the box.

The 5-1 defeat to Chelsea, there were three corners and one cross.

And here you've got one corner and one ball over the top.

So in those three defeats, they've conceded 11 goals.

Eight of them have been either just from set pieces or crosses put into the box.

Now, the Premier League is a really difficult league now.

The level is super high.

Everyone's bought like super good and expensive players.

I get that you can have a talent deficit in some games and you can just get beat.

But if you're West Ham, you cannot be conceding like eight goals from just balls flung into the box in three games.

Like that should be possible to avoid.

Like that feels like something you should be doing.

And I'm kind of fascinated on the counter to that.

how Thomas Frank have just immediately turned Spurs into the anti-Ange.

Like, it's completely opposite.

Like, talk about how Amarim seems to be taking ages to put any kind of imprint on the United team.

Like, Spurs are not, this was not an amazing Spurs performance, I didn't think.

Like, they're not passing the ball especially well.

They're kind of relying on Lucas Bergwell to get them up the field by running past people.

And the midfield isn't moving the ball forwards, I think, in a very impressive way at all.

But they're really solid defensively, and they're really dangerous from these set pieces.

And that will get you a lot of points in the Premier League.

And it's just funny how that is just a complete reversal of what what they were under owned.

Yeah, and it's happened so quickly.

Of managers with more than 150 Premier League games, Graham Potter has the sixth lowest win percentage, um, which isn't very good, is it?

Uh, Bernie Nil Liverpool won their Liverpool top of the league, four wins from four.

Uh, AC Spinner.

Has anyone ever looked sadder and as mournful as Hannibal did after conceding that last-minute penalty?

Staring into the abyss vibes.

I mean,

I don't like the law, right?

And I people know know that.

And I think a penalty is too big a crime.

But even I was like, because I heard about it before I saw it.

I was like, I bet I'm going to hate it.

And I was like, oh, actually, I think that probably

is, guys.

It probably is.

And it feels like,

what do you think it is, Wilson?

Just lack of concentration.

I mean, it's just, they've defended so well and so stoically for so long.

And it would be such a massive point for Burnley.

And it wasn't just his face.

It was everybody.

It was every Burnley player was basically Sammy Sammy Kafour at that moment.

Yeah, I mean, the

it's not just that he's stupidly sort of half-turned his back and stuck his arm out, it's even where his feet are.

You know,

if you're in that kind of position, I know there's an optimum distance you should be from a player about to cross the ball, but if he'd taken one largest step forward, he wouldn't have been in the box.

And would that position have been so much worse?

I think it is just fatigue leading to a lapse of concentration.

If you were looking at at this from a Liverpool positive perspective, the fact that their four games in the league so far have been won with goals in the 88th minute, the 95th minute, the 82nd minute, and then the 9th minute,

fourth minute.

Maybe that is just they...

they eventually wear opponents down rather than them being incredibly lucky repeatedly.

And I think there's probably an element of both.

But yeah, it can only be fatigue.

And Burnley played really well, you know.

They

that's pretty much as good as I think you can hope for from a promoted side against the champions.

They they might even have nicked it, you know.

I mean, they maybe were lucky to still have 11 men on the pitch.

Well, they didn't.

That's something that hasn't passed Wilson's mind.

Yeah, I saw it with the sound off at uh at C.

They were, of course, down to 10 men.

Absolutely, no.

I'd be very disappointed if that edit is made.

But that that can look like, if you're watching it without the sound, it can look like the exact same thing because you're just sitting in the low block anyway.

Like you can take away one of the dudes and it will look like the exact same game.

That is very thoughtful podcasting of you, Lars, to come to Wilson's defense just then.

I'm a thoughtful podcasting.

I mean, if you watch it with the sound down, you still see the ref produce this.

quite conspicuous red rectangle from his pocket

and and show a chuka chuckwoo

i was probably getting my roast beef dinner at the time right I say, Barry, that's less generous podcasting, but it's what we all wanted when you're in that situation.

Now, now, the question, Barry, is, you know, last season, the question for Solon was, have Liverpool played anyone good?

Is this season's question, have Liverpool been any good?

Does it matter?

Like, I can't work out how good they've been.

Salah doesn't look like he's at it quite yet.

They...

This was different.

They defensively didn't have a whole lot to do, I guess.

And there have been questions about the defense in the last few games.

But here, they did struggle to break Bernie down.

They did struggle and they got away with this one i think we're saying salah isn't on it but he's still scored two goals i think hasn't he and

uh liverpool are winning these games without playing particularly well they beat arsenal without playing particularly well and arsenal are a good side so i i wouldn't be overly concerned yet but i mean

Yeah, they definitely got away with this one.

They were lucky in the end.

I loved in his post-match interview, Scott Parker said,

We had to dig and go to places that not many human beings go.

I was like, All right, Scott, I'm doing a bit.

He also said, you know, praising the team, he said, they put their body where it needed to go.

And I was thinking, well, for almost all the game, they did that, but for one specific moment, they really didn't, did they?

I don't think that's Scott Parker really embracing life in the north.

Like, is he going?

Is this just the legacy of the mining industry and stuff like this?

Like he's really getting getting into that.

I would say about Liverpool that

you know, because of the way reporting around transfer works and the way things are now, we just always say, oh, they spent lots of money.

They've had a great window.

Like, we always see this on social media, like transfer journalists going, great window for this club.

They bought so many players.

But the reality, even if you bring in like a lot of players, that does create a need for...

some time for things to bed in and some time for things to adjust, right?

You've got two new fullbacks.

And in the case of, I mean, today, this game's soberslight, not a fullback, playing at fullback.

You've got Virtu's going to find his feet in the league, get used to his teammates.

You've got a new striker who had to come off in this game.

Like, there's a lot of things that are changed about this Liverpool team.

They are a very different team than they are last year.

And it's only logical that it'll take a little while in training and playing games for these guys to work each other out and to find the patterns and sort of get used to each other.

So the fact that they can have these slightly iffy performances while this is happening and still have four wins out of four, I take that as a very positive thing and I'm expecting it to kind of gradually click better as the season goes on.

All right, that'll do for part two.

Part three, five games to go.

We'll rattle through all of them.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So Bournemouth get another win, three wins in a row for them.

They beat Brighton 2-1, their best ever start to a Premier League season.

Alex Scott's got a beautiful goal in this.

You've been a fan of his for a while, Barry.

Am I making that up?

I think you are.

I think this is the second time you've said this.

And I'm not, I mean, he's a fine player, but I'm not...

I haven't been banging the drum for Alex Scott.

I'm more of, who's the midfielder?

I'm such a fan of him.

I've forgotten his name.

He's injured at the moment the

he was playing right back for them last season most of the time oh yes cook lewis cook oh yeah lewis cook i'm i know you're a lewis big i know you're a big lewis cook fan uh well maybe i've transferred it to well maybe vanix scott becomes you know the the man who lifts the world cup for england in 2030 you can you can say because i've said it i've been talking about him for for so so long look this game i guess last could have gone either way but you know this is a brilliant start for bourbon especially given you know they didn't have a great window in terms of losing lots of players.

Yeah, was this the sort of battle between the two sort of foremost likable and inoffensive teams that we all think are very good and very nice and are run very well?

And it's hard to get like too emotional about them in either direction.

I thought it was interesting to see Bournemouth, and they did, in fairness, I should say, they did a really good analysis on this on Match of the Day, how direct Bournemouth were and how happy they were to play like quite long passes.

And it's an interesting thing about Erola.

I remember, I checked this up,

the piece Sid wrote about him when they hired him.

There's a great quote from Erola, and where he says, I prefer too much chaos to too much organization.

One of the ways that manifests, I think, is, of course, they set pressing traps and they're very good at catching teams, but they're also quite direct when they win the ball.

And last season, actually, only Everton attempted more passes that were over 30 yards, or only Everton attempted more long passes in the league than Bournemouth, which might surprise some people because, like, no one would accuse them of being a hoofball team, and they're not, but they're happy to be quite direct to follow that up.

And I think you saw

certainly from the highlights, it looked like that was something that kind of did brighten a little bit in this game.

Yeah, and also, any ball over 30 yards from Everton was probably not a pass last year, was it?

Let's face it,

it was just a kick, wasn't it?

Well, I don't know.

I was thinking about this, Wilson, about the signing of Donna Rummer and maybe overthinking it, which is a good thing to do with a Man City signing, about the fact that football, you know,

it goes in cycles and perhaps it it is getting more direct you know talk talk about bournemouth being more direct you know thomas frank changing tottam that actually now maybe city won't play out from the back and one or you just need a keeper we're talking about long throws who's a big oaf who can just you know punch stuff and kick stuff actually that might be more important in

what football is becoming in this you know the return of the number nine as well all these kind of things yeah i don't i don't like the word cyclical for tactics because that implies that it's a predictable cycle you know Winter, spring, summer, autumn is a cycle.

Football repurposing old tactics, I think, is slightly different to that, not least because every time you get an old tactic reapplied, you're reapplying it with the knowledge of everything that's gone since.

So it is shaped by that.

So

I don't think it is cyclical.

And I think it leads to sort of a sense of

it being inevitable, which is not quite true.

The fundamental point about football becoming more direct, I think, is true.

Last makes a point about these being nice and offensive sides.

I think that is how most people view them.

But then Antoine Semenio afterwards was saying, oh, Imeola said we've got to get stuck in a bit more at halftime.

There's eight bookings in that game.

Just showing I do watch cards sometimes.

Do you have any bookings to wear in the Manchester Derby?

Well, there was none for Man Yu, as Roy Keene made a great

show of pointing out.

There's none for City.

Big Derby with not a single booking.

I mean,

that's sort of...

I don't think bookings are a great thing.

I'm not saying that the greatest game of all time was that Portugal-Netherlands game with 16 yellow cards.

Wasn't far off being the greatest game of all time.

But it did suggest sort of the tepidness of the Manchester Derby.

And this was a game where the word challenges flying in.

It feels as sort of we've had sort of 15-20 years of control of pet ball, and in this sort of

post-pet ball world, we appear to be moving into

football is becoming a little bit more direct, is becoming a bit more aggressive again, which is good in some ways and bad in others, but it is, it does seem to be what's happening.

And I think it's interesting that Imaiola, who's come from that Spanish tradition, okay, not the Barcelona tradition, that he is such an early adopter and is so ready to go more direct and apparently quite happy to

have his side be a lot more aggressive.

I do feel compelled to mention Fabian Herzler's sideline attire because

he looked like something out of an autumn catalogue and should have had an attractive blonde woman and a couple of red setters by his side.

And just leaves.

Just there.

Someone from the Brighton stuff has to come out and just lay some autumnal coloured leaves just down there for him to waltz through.

Newcastle won Wolves Nil.

David says, How much better does Newcastle look up front?

Now they have seemingly assigned, going by the sound of his name, a dark wizard.

I'm not sure that much better, but you know, Nicolas Voltamata scored his first goal.

You've been saying he's not a really,

he's not really a score big headers at the back post kind of guy, but he he did quite a good impression of that or does he do that as well as being a very cute player i mean he is very tall uh and if you have a very tall man who is a vaguely competent footballer and you put a bunch of crosses into the box he's going to stick his head on some of them uh i don't have the numbers to hand i can i i i can when next time wilson is talking i can look them up but i he didn't score a lot of headers last season uh but i but it did occur to me earlier like i remember watching aston villa versus newcastle and i remember in that game newcastle just completely nullified Villas midfield.

They couldn't open them up a lot, but they got into a lot of good crossing positions.

But every time they wanted to put a cross into the box, it was like Gordon in there, so it was completely pointless.

So, whereas now you have a man who's about three meters high at all in there, and that will immediately give you that option at least.

But I think it was also, you also just saw a lot of nice touches from him in this box.

I think so.

My take on Waltomata, as you'll have heard, is that I just think the transfer fee is super high for a guy who hasn't done that much yet.

But he does have a lot of fun ingredients.

I think this is one of my favorite favorite types of footballer in the world.

It's just like a lanky player with a very good first touch.

It's just aesthetically very pleasing.

It's possibly because I'm not fully over my sort of footballing man crush on Dimitri Berbito yet.

It's giving me some of that sort of sensations.

But I love seeing a tall man who can do these little nifty layoffs and things.

It's great.

And I just think also you couldn't draw too many conclusions from this, maybe, but I think it's so important for a forward who comes to a new league with a big price tag to get the first goal early and to get a little bit of positive momentum.

I think that side of it really, really matters.

High feet, you're saying he has a high ceiling and he needs a high ceiling, of course, doesn't he?

Uh, 16 goals in all competitions last season, one header.

They're the statistics.

Uh, Wolves have nought points, which is not many points.

They did dominate for the first 25 seconds of this game, and actually, they weren't terrible in this game, but um, on naught point watch, it's just them and Sheffield United in the top uh seven divisions of English football.

I checked and we'll get to Sheffield United in a second.

Wolves play all the promoted sides between now and the end of October Barry feels important.

Yeah, well you need to get points on the board.

I still think they don't look as bad as say West Ham even though West Ham have a win under the belt but

uh

they do need to start getting results.

I think they've leads at home next.

That's a big big game.

This was a very straightforward win for Newcastle and I think Wolves maybe were lucky not to have a man sent off.

Muscara for

clambering all over Harvey Barnes and he was the last man and was it in the penalty area or just outside?

I'm not sure, but that could have been a penalty or a red card or both.

So they got away with one there.

And then after the game, the manager Vito Pereira was complaining about the refs.

haste in booking his players, you know, saying they were all booked for their first fouls or their first challenges.

So, but

I think they were lucky not to lose a man.

So, they were showing some leniency there.

They haven't, okay, they were slaughtered by Man City, but apart from that, I don't remember them being particularly bad.

So, it was quite interesting.

On Match of the Day, Shea Givens said he decided they'd be fine and then second-guessed himself and said, have I gone too early there?

What do you think?

Chapper said, when you present this show, you're not allowed an opinion trust me

it was a very good line wasn't it uh newcastle played barcelona at st james's park on thursday night uh uh which will be a nice night for them a bad night for the pod uh but we'll reflect on it next monday um fullum beat leads 1-0 that own goal from gabriel goodmanson i think you're a bit harsh on pap sarr earlier in the pod barry when he said he just stood there but gabriel goodmanson did just stand there.

I thought maybe Joe Roden ducked out the way.

And that is, that's me giving him a chance for this extraordinary header and injury time.

Yeah, well, it looked like two different leads players missed the header, and Goodmanson just genuinely wasn't expecting the ball to come anywhere near him.

It did, and unfortunately, it cannoned off his head into the back of the net.

Uh, and um,

that's he looked very disconsolate after it.

It's it's a, I suppose, a competition who looked most sad this weekend, him or Hannibal?

Uh, I'm giving it to Hannibal, but uh,

yeah, it was a freakish goal, But

I think Fulham probably deserved to win on the balance of play.

Leeds, we said before the season, they look very light up front, and that is proven to be the case.

It's difficult to see where their goals are going to come from.

We have said that before about a team for which Dominic Calvert-Lewin is spearheading the attack, doesn't he?

He had a couple of chances.

I thought Kevin looked quite exciting for Fulham.

And I'm thinking Dominic Calvert-Lewin is just maybe not the solution.

He's not a bad footballer, but he has, I looked this up now, he he has underperformed his XG in seven out of eight seasons as a first-team forward player.

And the last two seasons have been particularly bad.

Obviously, being the striker for Everton under Sean Deish was not the easiest gig in Shobiz, but

last season he scored three goals off an XG of 6.7, and the season before that, he scored seven off an XG of 12.9.

So you can simplify that into saying that over the last two seasons, he scored about half the goals you'd expect from the chances that have fallen to him, that he's worked.

And that seems like like not very good and if you're leads and you're trying to stay up that that's not ideal um everton nil villa nil i mean we should be talking about an everton victory here they had 20 attempts the stats had two on target which is weird because martinez made at least three very good saves did some good badge patting pointing at the ground doesn't really work if you're playing away from home um but villa very lucky he's there villa the only side in the top six divisions to not have scored a goal the worst start to a premier league season since 97 98.

i didn't see that coming wilson uh i didn't think they'd be great this season but I didn't think there'd be anything like this bad.

But they just seem to have got themselves in a funk in that defeated old Trafford on the final day last season, which cost them a Champions League place.

And then they're sort of the whole everything

around the club, which I don't know if it's fans and if it's coming from the club, is, oh, PSR is not fair.

We're not allowed to spend all the money we've got.

Look at the evil established clubs who generate far more revenue than us and can spend more money as a result.

They've got a wages to turnover ratio of 92%.

That's not sustainable.

They've got to reduce it.

And if that, and I think half a dozen of their recent signings have not been particularly effective, although Philogene was very effective on

whichever day it was he scored the half-trick.

When was that?

Saturday?

Having moved to

Ipswich?

Friday night.

Friday night.

Yeah, but the squad's better than the way they're playing.

They just seem to have talked themselves into

a slump.

Palace 0, Sunderland 0, first away point.

Baz for Sunderland.

Your keeper, Robin Roofs, was very good.

but seven points from the first four games.

You've got to be happy with that.

Absolutely delighted.

I was hoping to go to this game, actually, but my ticket fell through.

And then, when I saw it was a nil-nil draw, um, and on again on match of the day, Leeds Fulham was third last, and the commentators spent most of it talking about how terrible the game was.

I'm going, how bad must the other Everton Villa and Sunderland Palace have been.

But the highlights at least were

okay.

Uh, I think Sunderland were quite lucky.

Their goalkeeper was man of the match.

But, yeah, point away at Palace is a very good point.

Yeah, Glasnar wanted a penalty.

Uche

got a shot away.

There's a sort of unwritten law that if you get a shot away, you don't get a free kick.

Because if he just touched that and then got kicked, he would get a penalty.

Yeah, I think I wouldn't have had any complaints if a penalty had been given for that.

Fair enough.

But it wasn't.

It wasn't.

Elsewhere,

Russell Martin, still no win in the league for Rangers.

They lost 2-0 at home to Harts.

Lots and lots of booze.

This seems untenable, Barry.

It does, yeah.

I said before the season started, I thought Harts might split Rangers and Celtic this season because of the Tony Bloom involvement, but I hadn't factored in how terrible Rangers would be.

And

Russell Martin wasn't a popular appointment, it's not going well for him, and

he

doesn't do himself any favours with his post-match interviews.

And

it's difficult to see how long more he can last.

He is not the only problem there, let's just say.

Sure.

Yeah.

I mean it would cost a lot as well.

I mean, to sack someone this early into a contract.

Sheffield United have sacked Ruben Sellers.

They've lost all six of their opening games of the season.

Producer Joel says, put your sandwiches away as Chris Wilder could come back, could he?

I don't know.

Because,

you know, George and Ali from Not the Talk 20 talk very highly of Sellers Wilson and what he did, especially at Reading in a very difficult circumstances.

But this has not worked.

Yeah, I mean, it did

kept his dignity taking Southampton down in an impossible situation.

Did well at Reading in a very, very difficult situation.

Kept Hull up in not easy conditions.

So you sort of thought, yeah,

he deserves a crack at a more positive job.

And it's just been a disaster.

You could see that opening game when they lost 4-1 to Bristol City.

And they played all right for 20 minutes in that game.

And a lot of the talk afterwards, oh, you know, that first 20 minutes, they pressed really well.

Yeah, but this massively open.

Bristol City picked them off over and over again.

And then the thing that was baffling that game was he did the sort of Phil Brown-style lecture on the pitch at the end of that game.

And you think, I don't think that's a good idea at any point.

You know, you shouldn't be slagging your players off in public.

You do it in the dressing room.

You're really risking.

your sort of

the bond you need with the players, the sense that you've got their back if you're criticising them very publicly.

To do that in your very first game just seemed extraordinary, and it's got worse since and you know the the game against ipswich

it was not dissimilar the first 15 20 minutes they they were all right and then as soon as they concede they buckle they get done on the break over and over again i mean chris wilder leaving after taking sheffie knight to third in the league and losing a playoff final by their head to the 70 whatever minute 78th minute was that purely for football reasons i don't know but if it were just for football reasons that would seem extraordinarily harsh yeah i don't disagree with that But haven't Sheffield United embraced this new

recruitment strategy that involves AI?

And I heard it being discussed on some BBC show, and it didn't sound particularly Chris Wilder friendly.

I mean, he has a reputation as a bit of a dinosaur that I don't think he deserves.

But I think they were very

much wanted to go in a new direction in terms of recruitment, and it clearly hasn't worked out.

No, because they've just signed robots, AI robots.

Yeah.

Just does not compute.

Alex writes, Dear Football Weekly, I was delighted to hear your interview with the excellent Zoran Mamdani this week.

I know we all suspected Barry to be Infantino's sleeper agent.

Good to have our suspicions validated.

He says, Me and my dad have been listening to Football Weekly right from the start since 06 when my dad used to download the episodes onto my iPod shuffle.

I've been listening to Barry for more than half my life.

I've decided to embark on a political career simply with the aim of becoming sports minister.

So you'll invite me onto Football Weekly.

As a local councillor, I've sat through many, many meetings in pursuit of this goal for me to now only realize that all I needed to do was run to be the mayor of New York.

That's why I'm delighted to announce my campaign to be the next independent mayor of New York.

I look forward to the invitation to discuss the critical issues to New Yorkians.

All the best.

See you when I'm sports minister councillor Alex Burnett.

Pennestone East Councillor, Weary Sheffield Wednesday fan.

Yeah, well, listen,

we extended the invite, of course, to all those who are actually actually running for mayor of New York.

But yeah, people seem to like that slightly unexpected chat we had.

And by all accounts, Barry, quite a lot of people at the Guardian have been trying to interview this man.

You didn't have a clue who he was.

They're still tipped up on this.

Anyway, that'll do it for today.

Thanks, everybody.

Thank you, Lars.

Thank you, Max.

Thank you, Barry.

Thank you.

Thank you, Wilson.

Cheers.

Thank you.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

Tammy's League is back, so we'll see you on Wednesday.

This is the Guardian.