Episode 443: Colleen Pelly: The Secret Quality That Makes You More Hireable Than Technical Skills

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Hi guys, welcome to Habits and Hustle. Today we have a very special guest because I thought given where we are in the world and how everything right now is tweaking and changing, of course, with the new president coming in.
I think a big thing that's in everybody's mind is inflation, the economy, how does employment, how does all this impact jobs, basically, and how to be hireable. So I thought today would be a great time to have Colleen Pellion, who is the CEO founder of a company called Linchpin, which is basically a recruitment agency.
You help people find jobs. You find companies get employees from all levels, from entry all the way up to C-level.
So who better's right. Right? So who better to ask than you? That's right.
Right? So thank you for coming on the show.

Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.
I'm really excited to talk to you and have this

conversation because I think now more than ever, it's in the zeitgeist of what's happening. I guess

my first question for you is, I guess when you're hiring, what is the number one trait that makes somebody hireable? Oh, great question. Yeah.
And it feels so simple, but I think when you think about self-awareness or like a high emotional intelligence or a high ability to be self-aware for me feels like one of the most important parts. And I think a lot of it is we talk about a lot of interviews, sometimes talk about like what went wrong or like what's an error you made or a mistake you made and being able to be self-aware and hold yourself accountable to what went wrong.
Right. And also talk about like, what'd you learn and how do we move forward is like, that's a beautiful skill to have.
And just being able to articulate what you've done well and metrics and data. So I think there's like a self-awareness piece, what I would say is a really important and really useful part to have.
So it's funny because I think that self-awareness is key for all walks of life, right? And it's not so common, right? It's something that we, I guess, some of us, I do do you feel in your opinion, is it something that someone can work on or is it something that's more innate? I think like anything you can work on it, but I definitely think it's something that you have or you don't in a strong way. Like I think some people think they're self-aware and have no idea what's going on.
Yeah, right. Exactly.
I think that's very common. What I also find interesting that in all my dealings in life and business yeah that I feel that talent is very overrated and talent definitely gets you through the door but if you don't have these other micro skills like you said like self-awareness or a higher EQ or reading the room or all things, work ethic, it really does dampen the importance of talent.
Do you agree? Yeah, 100%. And I think if you take that into what hiring looks like, or the recruitment process, we focus so much on a technical requirement for roles.
So you're hiring a software engineer, what's their coding experience? But if you're ignoring, I love how to read a room. That's like one of my favorite ones.
If you're ignoring that and you're ignoring your ability to regulate emotion and have clear conversations and give and receive feedback, they're not going to be successful in the role regardless if they can do the technical skill or not. I mean, listen, I think I should tell you, I don't know if, I don't know if you know this, you probably don't, but many, many years ago, yeah, many, like 25 years

ago when I was in between jobs and career, I got a job at a recruitment agency. Amazing.
I did not know that. No, I didn't think you would know this.
And what I found was I was working on, I got hired to like help with like technology people, like people to do like, it was like graphic design. It was like coding, it was computer talent.
And what I found, even with my own like very minimal experience, the people who got the job or I recommended were the people that were the most likable, that I just liked to be around. And like, it is my opinion in general, I think that likability is a way bigger indicator of someone's success and overall hireability than any talent that you can ever have.
Yeah. And it's tricky because there's, there's a bias that can come into play where we like, we want to hire people like us.
So if you're vibing with someone when you're interviewing them, it's so easy to be like, this is amazing. I could absolutely hang out with this person.
But it's less about like the likability or it's not like, like I think a few years ago, like Google, it would be like, oh, can I have a beer with this person? And it's like, it's not that because you may not necessarily like them as a friend, but do I like their energy and their vibe and their ability to like hold a conversation with me? And can I see myself partnering? Yeah. So likability in that way, 100%.
And I think part of that too is like, if you're a clear communicator, that likability comes through. So like, if you're like, I've talked about this before, but I think it's like, if there's two people who are the exact same and they have the exact same experience and they bring the exact same energy, but somebody is a better communicator or they have like a higher sense of urgency in the way they communicate, I'm going to pick them every time because they're going to perform better for you.
Well, that's another one, like a sense of urgency. Probably my most, I mean, I think I actually do it to a fault.
Like I'm so quick in the way I communicate. I almost think I have expectations of everyone.
And I'm like, what do you mean you haven't responded in seven minutes? I'm the same way. People think I'm crazy.
It's so unhealthy. It's so unhealthy.
But I think that's why people like working with us. Right.
I think that there's like certain things that override just actual, like you said, technical ability. Right? Now, do you feel like, would you specialize? Do you have any specialties at Linchpin? Yeah.
Great question. Okay.
And so I think this is probably one of the most commonly asked questions. And any business coach will tell me you should have like a very specific niche.
So there's a lot of recruiters who are like just tech recruiters or just marketing or just construction. And I've gone so far out of my way to not do that.
So I like to focus on purpose-led companies and purpose-driven people. Recruitment with purpose is our tagline.
And I've curated my team. So I do still have a pipeline in tech and in sales and in legal and in finance.
But we are so concerned, I guess is the right word, with who the clients we're working with are, do the way they treat their people and the way they operate their company align with who we are. Because if you can find your way to feel on the same page or on the same path of that, the recruitment process is so much more authentic.
But it's my biggest roadblock. Really? Because a lot of people, people who don't know anything about recruiting, I would say in transparency, will come back and be like, you know what? I'm going to go with Jen's company because she's done only tech recruiting for 15 years.
But it's like, no, really, if you look at my background, I've got retail, I've got tech, I've got cannabis, I've got automotive. And great recruitment is about understanding the need and honestly caring about candidate and client experience and you can hire for anyone.
And so my biggest roadblock is getting through, letting people give me a chance to show you what it can actually look like. Right.
Because it's so easy to say, oh, well, they've done exactly my type of recruiting for this many years, but that doesn't mean that they're going to give you the same experience. Right.
Well, it's like also transferable skills, right? If you can do it in one area, you can do it in another area. It doesn't matter, right? Like if you can sell a widget, you can sell a widget in cars, you can sell a widget for a sofa or whatever it is.
Absolutely. Because it's like the foundational skills of knowing of like what you're doing.
And I would say you could actually take that into the hiring process too because I think if we talk about sort of like more traditional recruitment methods, I think there's a way a lot of people are so stuck on, I need them to have experience in this industry or they need to have done this, but it's like, no, let's break down the fundamental skills for the role. And if they did this in automotive, they can also do it in tech.
Right. If it's the same skill set.
Like a project manager can manage any different types of projects.

Right, right, right.

And I think the clients we love working with understand that. And it's our job, I guess, to sell the transferable skill set too.
But I think people get really stuck on titles and industry. And it's like, no, we need to focus a little bit more.
And I'm like, can they do the job properly regardless if they've done it in the exact same way before? Well, also the companies that do really well and thrive all have a very streamlined feel to it. Like Lululemon is a great example.
And I know you used to work with Lululemon. Yeah, that was my start into recruitment.
Really? Yeah. I knew you worked with them.
I wasn't sure if it was the beginning or like middle. But what they did very early on, and I think they were the first ones that I recognized was doing really well was building a culture and the culture was very very strong and everybody like that they hired they all fit that culture and like bought into it and yes exactly and i think like it was almost what was that call what what did you guys have a mandate like when they who a when they hired when they hired you to hire their employees yeah did they give you kind of like a mission statement to work with or yeah a little bit I think like there's definitely like a manifesto or that way but I feel like a lot of it was sort of how do you want to operate in the world and like at the time it was like yeah do you like to move your body like you know, is mindfulness a part of your everyday, that kind of thing.
But the whole, from a recruitment perspective, when a company does that really well, man, my job was easy. Right.
Because everyone wanted to work there. Right.
And did everybody, I mean, yeah, that was like the big role. At the time.
Yeah. But everybody's personality fit a very specific, I felt like a very specific kind of collective rule, like not rules is the wrong word, but like everyone kind of was cut from the same cloth.
Yeah. And I think I probably didn't fit into a certain extent because I'd never done yoga before and it was a yoga company.
So, but I remember that made me stand out, but I think. But it wasn't a yoga company.
It was actually an apparel company. It was a clothing company.
They were selling the most expensive pair of pants on the planet, yoga pants, right? It's still so crazy to think about. Oh, it's still, and by the way, yeah, and now, but now they were the first of its kind.
Now there's a million of them, right? Yeah, and there's so many, but yeah, I think that- They were the pioneer. The collective mindset, I guess, is the best way to put it, would be like goal setting and always wanting to better yourself.
So there's like a personal development piece that I feel like everyone we hired sort of had in common. And it was sort of like never settling for less.
And there's always more you can do. And there's always, there's a continuous learning piece and there's just like a hunger to be better.
A hunger. It was part of the consistency.
I also found everyone very friendly when they walked in. Yeah.
And everybody, not just friendly, but like overly like happy. Yeah.
So at the store level, that's where I started. I started in the stores as a sales associate and they're called educators and the front people at the time, this was years ago, but they were called Dofi, which is director of first impressions.
And you had to greet someone within six seconds of them coming in. And so like you can't, if you're coming in the door, I can't let you get past me essentially without like, good morning or welcome.
Like, thanks so much. So there's definitely a peppy energy.
You're not wrong about that. Right? Yeah.
But like it works, right? Yep. Yeah.
Because I'm now talking about it like years later because they obviously set a standard that they would hire for. Yeah.
And I guess when everyone starts that job, they get like some kind of manifesto. There's training too.
Yeah. Like, and I think there's sort of the stores sort of broken down into different sections and yeah, but it was, it never felt, I think, I mean, I was young, like it was one of my first jobs.
And I think like one of the things that always landed for me was it never felt like work because every, maybe because everyone was like minded in a certain, but like I loved everyone. Like a lot of them are still close friends of mine today and we had so much fun.
Really? Like it was such, I would recommend any young person to like work in the stores. If that's like the type of retail job.
It looked like it was fun. Yeah, really fun.
And then, so were you, so you weren't really involved in like built, like building out the brand culture at that level. No.
At that point. And the hiring kind of came into play with like

seasonal, like holiday hiring. So it was like when you're on store leadership and then you're sort of voluntold, you have to hire your team.
You have to hire the seasonal employees. And that's how recruiting started.
I sort of like fell into it in that way. Can you give me another example of a really strong corporate culture that you were a part of that you helped kind of, I guess, really execute on? Yeah, I think the most

like fundamental, like building blocks example I can think of was Tesla. So they brought me in,

I was the first Canadian recruitment or hiring TA employee. So they brought me in to sort of

build the recruitment function. And I had this opportunity to take this very successful brand

in the States at the time. And what does that look like for Canada? And how do we create the same sort of function and culture, but like make it unique to who we are and the way we operate? So that was a unique experience because the brand was so well known.
It was similar actually to Lululemon at the time where a lot of people wanted to work there. So it's not that finding people was challenging, but nothing was in place.
So I got this opportunity to kind of create structure and process and the high level overview of what things could look like for this company as it grew in Canada. And what was like, what kind of mandate were you given? Like, what were they looking for? Yeah.
Their whole thing when you get hired was, um, it's harder to get a job here than it is to get into Harvard. That was, that's their whole sentence.
And I don't know that the interview process felt like that. I don't know.
I didn't go to Harvard, so I can't imagine that. But it was a, I would say it was a fairly standard interview process.
But the way they want you to feel and what they tried really hard to execute in their onboarding is like, congratulations, you're here. You're in this room and not a lot of people get to be in this room.
So that was sort of like the vibe and it felt really good at the time. And then, you know, learned a lot in that role.
And I was a part of a mass layoff. So I spent years building this function.
And then they ended up essentially axing it and putting everything back in California. Wow.
How many people did you hire for them? Thousands. And from what level to what level? And this was like everything from service people at the car level, like detailers, all the way up to like executives.
Wow. So that was a wild journey.
And I think, I mean, when you, you notice flags once you're out of a situation too, right? Like when you leave. And so it was such an incredible learning opportunity.
But then while I was there, there was so many layoffs. And so it's like, I almost should have seen it coming.
Right. So they would hire and also- Project-based hiring essentially.
Yeah. Project-based.
So like this car, this model is releasing. We need to hire 5,000 people to get this done.
Was Elon involved in that, in terms of building out the mission statement, the manifesto, what people should be- He spoke at, oh my gosh, the word, town halls. Yeah, for Tesla.
Yeah. And so I was always in Fremont.
That's where I had to go. And yeah, you'd go and he'd be on a stage and he'd be trying to motivate everybody.
But I never really was involved. Like anyone I was building like culture or strategy with would have been just like on the HR side.
He wasn't, I don't, I didn't see him involved. Right.
But people, everyone there, like, like they wanted you, wanted the people to feel like lucky to have had the job. That's probably the best way I would describe it.
It was sort of like, congratulate, oh my gosh, you made it into this room. And I did feel that way because it worked.
Like it felt great. I was like, a lot of people wanted this job and I got to have this job.
That's incredible. Oh, but I mean, for the people that you're hiring, do they all come from Ivy League? Do they all come from- No.
I think not necessarily, yes, some people, but no, there was no sort of theme in that way. No expectation in that way, but just like the vibe to the people we were bringing.
It was like, congratulations, like you've made it. Now, are people able, like if I were somebody who was looking for a job, right? Yeah.
Unemployed. Would I be able to call a recruitment agency? Like how do you find your candidates? Yeah.
Great question. So this is a super misconception too.
So the way agencies work, well, you were in one. So, but for everyone else, a hundred years ago.
So clients hire us. So like Lou Lemon would hire me to hire for their people.
So the candidates aren't paying anything. So like the candidates were like, we're given a role and then we're like, great, we need to find candidates, but you can still reach out because you're still building my pipeline and helping.
But right, how do you find your people? Do you poach from other companies? Do you go on LinkedIn? How do you find people that you could even interview for these job opportunities? Yeah, LinkedIn's definitely a big one. There's alumni job boards, or if you're in design, you're looking on Behance.
You're kind of picking specific job boards for the type of industry you're hiring in. But honestly, LinkedIn is a ton of it.
And then just like who you've, the secret sauce to recruitment is just keeping in touch with people. So like really just networks.
Like I think the strongest recruiters just have like years and years of these strong networks. And so a lot of the time we'll get a new role.
I don't know, we get accountants a lot. So like we need another accountant.
It's like, great. I can think of 15 to people to reach out to before I even have to go on LinkedIn.
But if you're thinking about platforms, I'd say LinkedIn's are like our most used. So like if someone's looking for, so you kind of just keep like a Rolodex or like a database of people that you've known over the years that kind of, kind of, kind of left an impression.
Yeah. Or an even, um, or that you've placed somewhere else.
Or we've placed, yeah. Cause you keep in contact with someone and then, you know, in six years they might want a new job, whatever that looks like, or two more recently.
But we also have sort of open forums. Like a lot of people will reach out, as you said, and be like, I need help.
It's like, great, here's a link. Can you fill this out? And it has like, what's your name? What's your contact information? What type of job are you looking for? Do you want to be remote? Where do you live? What's your compensation expectation? Can you list some metrics on like why you've been successful, et cetera? And then we're also like, do you want to be anonymous? Whatever it looks like.
And then I've sort of have a pipeline from that. And when I have a new role, I can run it through that and see like who matches.
So it's really selfishly, it really builds my pipeline quickly so I can hire people faster for companies. Right, right, right, right.
But also we get to help people too, which is nice. So what's the percentage that you actually go after, like poach through other people? Like you call it people who have jobs already versus people who don't have a job.
I would say more often than not, they are employed. They are employed.
Because it's one of my big theories in life. It's always easier to get a job when you have a job.
It's easier to find a's easier to find a boy or a boyfriend or a girlfriend when you have a relationship. But it's like the law of like Murphy's Law, right? Like when you have it, all these opportunities are available.
All the time, yeah. When you have nothing, nothing.
Do you want to know why I think that is part of it? Why? I think when you are reasonably happy, people, if they're willing to take a call with me they're not perfectly happy in their role right and or sometimes they're just networking but or they're curious yes that's part of it but there is something like if you don't need it you don't care i guess in the same way and you're so much more confident in the way you communicate and you interview better so exactly because i really believe that for sure i think i think with life right yeah like when you when you're like when you're not desperate when you just don't desperate. When you just don't care.
No, it's desperate. Desperate's the right way.
Yeah, that's a good word. When you're not desperate for a job or a relationship or a date or whatever, you know, a house, whatever it is.
Whatever it is. You handle yourself differently, right? Like the best version of you is actually presented, number one.
And like that kind of like laissez-faire attitude is way more attractive than this like, you know, this like hint of desperation. But you can hear it some, and people, like obviously there's so many layoffs in the world and all these things, but like if people get to the point where they're like, I don't even care, I'll take a PECA.
And it's like, just know your worth and have confidence and you'll come across. It's hard to say that though, when someone needs money though, right? But like, of course, a hundred percent.
But then they always say like the best are always taken. So you have to go like, when I build, when I, when I build out brands and companies and stuff like that, cause I do a lot of stuff with lots of different companies, especially in the tech space, I find all the good tech people are actually taken.
It's really, really hard to find like super good who can build apps and people like that. There are certain things that require people actually...
I'm going to change what I said earlier. I would say 95% of jobs, it comes down to the EQ and the likability and the work ethic.
But there are those jobs that you just need hardcore ability and talent. Like accountants are one of these.
Tech in terms of building an app, very important to have people know what they're doing. And the thing is when you're super niche, like if, especially on the tech side, they're reached out to all the time.
Totally. So even on LinkedIn, you'll see it'll literally be like, stop emailing me.
Like it's like people. Wow.
And so I think in general, recruiters kind of, they have a bad feeling about us a lot

of the time.

But I was in tech recruiting for a while and you just keep in touch with people.

And for me, I find the best way to like present an opportunity to someone is just be super

transparent.

So those people, and I'm super quick.

I'm like, here's the company, here's the job posting, here's the pay.

It's remote.

If this has any interest to you, let me know or refer me.

Otherwise, just like tell me to go away.

Right.

And most people will be like, not right now.

Thank you. here's the company, here's the job posting, here's the pay, it's remote.
If this has any interest to you, let me know or refer me. Otherwise, just tell me to go away.
And most people will be like, not right now. Thanks.
Thanks, Colleen. No.
Or here's a friend who's looking. And you can just keep it short and sweet.
But so many recruiters reach out with very vague information like, hey, I have this really exciting opportunity. It's like, just tell me the company and tell me the pay.
And if I'm interested, I'll let you know. I've never understood recruiters who aren't direct.
It makes no sense to me. Yeah, like short and sweet.
Yeah. Yeah.
So can you tell me some of the industries that are a good idea for people to kind of look into that are good places for people to maybe be able to find a good paying job? Yeah. So I think there's, I mean, just we've been talking about tech, tech pays really well at all levels.
Give me some jobs that people maybe haven't thought of, or people who are maybe in college or, you know, this is what I guess, let me just kind of like, what I'm thinking is like, people are thinking of the same five jobs, you know, when they come in, like, am I going to be a lawyer? Am I going to be a doctor? Am I going to be an accountant? Am I going to be an influencer? That's a big one now. YouTuber.
These are all the things that people are actually doing. But there's a whole variety and array of jobs out there and careers, I should call it, not just jobs, that people don't know about because they just don't know what they don't know.
So the way I want to frame this question is different. I want you to tell us some careers or career paths or industries or areas that would be very lucrative for people to maybe explore.
Yeah. I think just starting from the world I know really well is I think recruiting is such an interesting space because you don't need a formal education.
If you have one, that's great, but you don't need it, right? Like recruiting, there's no designation. You mean to be a recru be a recruiter yeah there's no designation you need and you know i have people in my life who like have all these letters after their name and they went to school for 15 years and it's like i make significantly more like i mean that in a it's coming across as not humble but also don't be humble i want you to tell us the truth yeah so it's like i if especially in um agency recruitment a lot of it's commission-based.
So if you're confident and you're great at what you do and it's uncapped commission, you're just going to keep earning. But the other side, this is a less conventional path, but I feel like so many trades roles are ignored, like being an electrician or a plumber or those pieces.
They're making a significant amount of money and you're able to get educated or the requirements you need in a much faster timeframe. And so I think that's something that's kind of ignored and also needed.
So we work with influencers all the time. We hire for them all the time.
At some point, that's not going to be a job anymore. And you know, what's always going to be needed is those like essential.
So like what's essential that's going to be needed all the time? Can I tell you, okay, I want to like, you said a couple of things that I want to just touch on. It's really interesting.
I have a very good friend living in Canada and Toronto. She, we, her and I were really close when I was living in Canada many years ago.
She was a recruiter, an executive search, uh, recruiter. Is that the same thing? Yeah.
Uh, some people just do executive search. Like we do everything from entry level through executives.
She did, she was, she did either one, the executive search. Actually, no, she was a recruiter because she did only tech stuff.
She was making so much money. It was absurd.
It was shocking how much money that she was making as a recruiter because of the commission staff. You could make so much money if you're good.
That's the first thing I was going to say. So really what you need to be is tenacious because you have to be able to call people, also remember people.
Remembering is so key. I always say this to people.
Everyone's like, how are you good at your job? What does it mean to be successful in recruitment? It's really just keeping in touch with people and remembering details. But that's a skill in itself.
100%. To keep in touch, to be able to follow up, to maintain a relationship.
These are fundamental. To me, like, to me, these are life skills that like make the biggest difference.
Right. And so, and also be good at sales, right.
You've got to sell yourself. You're going to sell the company, the opportunity.
Like this is to me a massive area for people who are listening and they don't know what to potentially maybe look into for a job. Being a recruiter is a great option, I think.
And also, if you're placing jobs that are like $100,000 plus, you're making a major commission off of that. Like, what's the commissions you guys make? So as a company, like from a business owner, we charge 20% of the base salary and then your recruiters will get anywhere from like 10% to 15% of that.
Yeah, that's great money. The other thing I find very interesting is what you're saying to your point, plumbers, electricians.
Do you know that how impossible it is to find a plumber? Right. I needed a plumber for my house.
We were waiting three weeks, a month maybe, because they're so in demand. And these plumbers are making a lot of money.
Yeah, especially in the emergency space as well, because at that time you're like, I'll pay whatever it is. Please.
Yeah. But like there are, I think plumbers now there are plumbers.
And I think this is pretty much like universal now, like everywhere are making more money than doctors. Right.
And so I think there's, that's probably just an underrated. I mean, when you talk about recruiters, I feel like it's, no one wakes up and is like, I'm going to be a recruiter when I grow up.
So that's probably, but I think you're right. There's sort of like my parents want me to be a doctor or a lawyer or a teacher or whatever it is.
And I think there's like some like underrated pieces that are missing. By the way, teachers make no money.
And they should make more than all of us. That's by the way, one of these jobs, or I should say careers, that's like that, they pay them nothing and they deserve so much more.
It's unbelievable. My kids are younger, like they're not in school yet.
And I just even think about the daycare people. Yeah.
I'll leave, I'll drop my kids off sometimes and everyone's crying. And I'm like, you're not paid enough.
They're not paid enough. I don't know how, I go crazy with two of them.
Oh, me too. I can't even imagine like 15.
But there are some people who are just like really, like they have a lot of patience. If you're somebody who has a lot of patience and just loves kids, it's a great job.
Me, I would strangle every child in there, including myself. I'd be the worst person to work in a day care.
But I do find that interesting. So there's, in that trades world, you're talking electricians, you're talking plumbers, carpenters.
Yeah. And I think like even maybe less, we did some landscape hiring for a while.
And so like maybe not like direct like laborers, but like that can grow into sort of like a more niche trade. But I just think in general, people overlook those essential pieces for things that are needed.
Yeah. I don't know.
And I think there are key industries, like if you're thinking more on the corporate side, like anything with a commission, so like recruitment is the same way because it's sales, but anything in sales where you have the ability, if you're great at what you do, you're going to do well. Not everyone's going to do well in these industries because the base salary is not a lot.
You need the commission. You also have to be a self-starter.
Yeah. Hungry.
Yeah. Hungry.
Yeah. But also like entrepreneurial because it is your business that you're growing and it may be working within another business or just on your own.
Like this is to me, it's like being an entrepreneur, right? Like these, some, everyone thinks it's sexy. Oh, I'm on a, like it's become a very like hashtag worthy, you know, word.
Like I'm an entrepreneur. Yeah.
Do you know how hard it is to be an entrepreneur? I think about this all the time. Like when I first started my company and everyone's like, oh my gosh, you're doing it.
And you're like, do you know how hard this is? I'm crying in the shower and trying to figure out what to do every day. Yeah.
And you find your groove, but it's like you go from being, so if I'm an expert in recruitment and then I start a company, all of a sudden I have to be an expert in finance and tech and marketing. And you're not, and you're learning and you're making so many mistakes.
But if you're, it's not for everyone, but if you have the mentality, like an entrepreneurial spirit or whatever you want to call it, I think really the word is resilience. If you can be a resilient person, you can make it happen.
But I don't remember the stat, but it's something like wildly high that the number of people who try to start a business and fail. They do.
Yeah. But you have to, you have to have the, the, the thick skin, the stomach for it.
I also, you know, I don't know if you know this either, but I did this, my whole brand is around being bold, right? Like, okay. And I did this Ted talk on being bold is actually more important than being intelligent and all these things.
And this whole idea was behind this, the 10% target, which is this idea that you make 10 attempts at whatever you want most. Ooh, okay.
Right? And so the idea behind it is that one of two things happen. Either you get the opportunity that you go after, or another thing will present itself that you never even knew existed by just going through the process.
And the nice thing is what happens when you do that process is you end up failing and you get comfortable with failing because now you already have like some kind of framework where you're like, okay, I'm making 10 attempts. So now that's what I'm doing.
So if I fail at the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, that's okay. And then you actually teach yourself to become immune to failing.
I love that. Yeah.
And so, and I started to talk to all these like big sales companies because like, that's really at the end of the day for people to become, or for people to make a shot, you know, give it a shot or it's about learning how to be resilient, how to be, how to be okay with failure. And you're not going to get anywhere if you don't fail.
Not going to, first of all, like the majority of people that I know, including myself, I fail 99.9% of the time. You just need to win once.
But you will win. Yeah.
But it's a numbers game. It's volume.
The more you take a shot, the better your chance is at actually getting that shot. Yeah.
And having something work out. I had somebody, like an old mentor tell me once to look at a step back or a failure as feedback.
Yeah. Step back as feedback.
I've heard that. And it resonated with me at the time.
And it's like, if you can find a way to,'t go well but what can I learn from it because I'm going to do it again um yeah yeah I also think it's also like we can talk about I I feel like all this like people just try to like oh setback is you know is either feedback or or setback is a feedback or like or there's all these like other cliche things similar like yeah like along the way. Yeah, like cliches, like, you know, like it's when you're like, when you fall, when you get up, it's like redirection and all these things.
And then in the day, it's really simple. It's like, the more shots you make, the better chance you're going to get at a success.
If you don't ask for it, it's never going to happen. You don't ask, you don't get.
It's like the squeaky wheel gets the oil, right?

Like maybe it's a Canadian thing, you know?

You know what cliche? I truly, like there's so many that go around, but one that I- There's so many. We have a whole podcast on that.
Yeah, we should. Yeah.
But the one that always has resonated with me too, which I hate to, it makes you so uncomfortable, but you're not going to grow if you're not uncomfortable. So like growth is going to, whatever that is, growth happens out of your comfort zone or whatever it is.
It's so true. Well, a hundred percent.
Like that's what I was saying earlier. It's like when you are practicing these 10 attempts and you're failing at them, the more you do something, the less uncomfortable it becomes.
Right. So like me at this point, like I'll do anything.
I don't give a shit. Like if it works, it works.
If not, it doesn't even like, it's like no, it's like. But you're confident too, which I think takes, that's a skill.
But, but you know what? Confidence comes from being competent. And I feel like I've, I've built that muscle of competence because I've tried and practice and practice so much that the more you practice, you get better and better.
And so now I feel like I'm really competent at failing. So now it's like, okay, that's what superpower.
I don't care when I fail. So if I try to do something or I ask for something and I don't get it, well, okay, well, at least I feel better about myself that at least I made the shot.
You tried. Yeah.
And I think that rejection is always better than regret. Right? Yes.
I never want to look back at something and be like, you know, what if? I wish I did.

Yeah.

Or what if I tried that? Or like, what if that happened? Like on your deathbed, you're not thinking about all the things that you did. You think about all the things you did not do.
Yeah. You know, like, oh, if I only apologized to this person.
Right, or spent more time with this or did this. Yes.
So regret, like I find regret to be a really horrible gutter, gutter, like gutturally bad feeling. That's a word.
Yeah. So I'll get rejected all day long.
I don't care. Well, I think anyone who starts a small business knows all about rejection.
Well, right. So like you're, so like, this is why I like you because you are, you are an entrepreneur because you started this business.
You're a recruiter, which in itself, it's like a double whammy, right? It's a lot of no in your face. It's a lot of like being a recruiter right away, super difficult to start your own business.
And then a recruitment business, which is all, all eat what you kill, period. End of story, right? And it's a really saturated market.
It's, is it? Yeah. Like there are, I don't know, I can't remember, but you like, you could throw a stone and hit like 20 different agencies just within my like area where I live.
And I think it's so it's consistently something that somebody told me like a competitor who's a friend of mine told me, when I first started my business, there's more than enough work for all of us. You just have to find your lane.
And it's so true. Like, you know, I think even a few years ago I would kind of work with anyone because I wanted a client, right? And I was like, sure.
And then, you know, as I've kind of gained more success, I'm able to be like, I don't actually know that we're right for each other. I don't really like the way you treat your people in a kind way.
So it's like, I'm going to like find my groove and my people and like find my space in it. And sort of like, how can we differentiate? Like, if we're not trying to be like everyone else, we don't want to work with everyone.
And we want to like be, I don't know,

like curate kind of the type of clients we want to work with. So that's been cool too.

That's like-minded like you. Can I ask you another question that I find? Yeah.
I find it

interesting because also the workforce has also changed a lot over the last few years, especially

since COVID, right? Nobody wants to go into work. Everybody wants to work remotely.
How does that

Thank you. changed a lot over the last few years, especially since COVID, right? Nobody wants to go into work.
Everybody wants to work remotely. How does that impact employment? Yes.
So just on like a geographical location, like the remote, if I'm given a role and you see it's remote first, it's always going to be easier. You can cast a wider net.
Like, you know, you can even like if they're in a different time zone, even you can shift hours. But like being remote allows for the largest candidate pool.
A lot of companies have kind of fallen back into a hybrid model. So like coming into the office a couple of days a week.
But when we have companies, like we have a few clients and they're lovely, but it's sort of like demanding five days a week in office. Nobody wants that anymore.
And so I think, yes, there's some roles like nurses, like there's some roles you have to be in person, that kind of thing. But I do feel like I'm going to use the word flexibility instead of remote.
Like I think the most attractive thing companies can offer is flexibility. And what I mean by that is not just where you work, but also time, like even my own team.
I know recruitment's a little bit like you just need your computer and a phone, but it's sort of like, I don't really care when you work or where you work. I'm going to know if you're doing your job by the number of people you hire or you don't.
And my employees, I feel one of the things they, you know, we do surveys a lot. Like, what do you like about being here? Like what's working and what's not working? And I think it's like, if you give your team flexibility, they're going to feel trusted and people who feel trusted want to do well for you because they want to be around you.
So I think flexibility in terms of like, yeah, the hours you work or like what you need, like maybe I want to pick my kids up every day at three, but then I'm going to do a little work later in the evening because that works for me. Or I'm not going to work at all on Wednesday because I want to go do something, but I'll work a little bit on Sunday.
So I think there's like trust your team to get the job done and they will, as opposed to sort of setting rigid regulations. The companies that set those strict rules, I find like nobody's going to stay.
But do the companies do better when their employees are in office versus hybrid or remote? I have found no success, like key indicators that are any different if someone's in an office versus not. Like I think there are some industries where's very useful to be at a table like you know if you're architects or review like anything you can do in person you can do on a computer really but you know like my husband for instance he's a civil engineer and he loves he's like I miss the everyone in the meeting on the looking at the same piece of paper on the same table he likes that kind of thing so hybrid is great for him but for me there's no difference and so I all it shows to me, and like, this is just my personal opinion, maybe it's not popular, but I think it just shows that you don't trust your people to get their job done.
I don't know. I think there's something to be said for two things, employee morale.
Yep. And also just camaraderie.
Like, Yeah. I feel like- Like from a culture.
From a culture standpoint. Because what what happens is I find we're living in a more and more disconnected world as like just in general.
And now we're putting the onus, like the rules are now on the employees, not the employers. Like we're having to bend towards people's disinterest or desire to go into an office.
And what I feel is happening is people are becoming lazy and they're not realizing that like they're the work. I mean, you're right.
There's some jobs that, yeah, it doesn't require to be back in the office, but it's not even so much about that. It's about creating community,

corporate culture. Corporate culture is very hard to build when everybody is dispersed in their homes.
And you never see each other. Yeah.
It's like you hear companies when they host their town halls or their big events, people feel motivated. That's why I think you're right that why most companies have landed on hybrid, because people want both.
So they want the ability to go to an appointment on Wednesday and work from home, but also be able to go into the office on Thursday and see their team. So I think that's probably why most of our clients have landed in that space because the community field does come back.
Kind of depends who you are. So I've been remote since like way before COVID.
But you're in a sales job. It's different.
Yeah. Because I don't like going into an office, but that's just my personal opinion.
I don't like, listen, I hate the office. What I feel is that you don't get a job that's office driven.
But I think, but it's different when you are a salesperson because you, like, your bottom line is based, what you eat is based on how much you sell. That's right, yeah.
Okay, so then that doesn't, there has to be some, like, malleability. Okay.
But if it's a marketing job or if it's a job that's involving PR or whatever it is, I don't know. I'm just- Design, yeah.
Design. Yeah.
Design's a great example. I feel like it should, we are giving our, we're giving people way too much onus and flexibility at the employer's expense.
Okay. Like work-life balance.
Like now people are like calling the shots. I don't want to work later than three.
I don't want to work on Friday. I don't want to wear that to work.
It's like, you know what? Then don't get a job and you'll go hungry. This might not be the right place for you.
If that, that, that. Yeah, I hear you.
At what point is it too much? At what point? Like I feel like the pendulum has now swung so far one direction that it's becoming a real problem, like where it's a different thing, like, oh, the triggers, the safe spot, the safe places. Yes, right.
You know, all of this kind of rhetoric. It is softer.
It's soft and gentle. Yeah.
Which I feel, from all the research and data I've seen, I've seen people and companies actually plummet. They're not staying plateau.
They're not actually like staying, they're not thriving, let's put it that way. Yeah, I think there's definitely a mindfulness.
I don't know what the right word is. That wasn't there before in a certain way.
I don't think mindfulness is the right word. Wokeness is another word.
Yeah, I'm trying to think of the right word. That's the word I'm thinking.
But what I will say, I agree and I disagree with you. I think like the piece, you can still set, I need XXXXX accomplished by this time.
It just, how you get there, like it doesn't- Right. There should be parameters.
Yeah. I think like, you know, if you can't work on Friday because of what your life looks like, but you're still going to hit your deadline, then I don't really care.
So I do think, I kind of think I'm a balance of how you're feeling and how I like it. Yeah.
Sort of what's more modern. I'm not where you are, right? Yeah.
I feel like I'm not a work, I'm not an office person. So I know better to get a job, an office job.
Well, you know you're going to do what's going to work for your lifestyle. And also whatever money I make is my, if I don't make money and I don't work, then I won't make money.
And if I do work, then I will make money. But my personality is okay with that.
A lot of people's personalities are not okay with that. Right, and it's not like aligning.
It's not aligning because I think a lot of times people want to be, again, entrepreneur. They want to be an entrepreneur, but they don't have the chops to actually do that.
So they want a company to kind of pay them a salary, but then they don't want to like, they don't, they don't want to acquiesce to what it requires to have a salary job. To get this done.
Yeah. Yep.
No, I totally hear you. I think there's a, I mean, it's like a tricky game a lot of companies are playing right now too, because they want to feel like they're inclusive and making sure everyone's feeling safe and everyone's feeling comfortable.
But also, there is a bottom line. It's not like where my brain keeps going too.
Even myself, one of my biggest learnings in my company was I've kept to keep people on for far too long. Yes.
Because I'm super empathetic or I'll do work for them or I'll end up picking up the slack. And then at some point I have to like put my big curl pants on.
I remember I'm trying to run a company and I think like that's something as well. Like, so there's this hard thing where you are one of my learnings or one of my areas of opportunity is I want people to like me and I need to like, why? Yeah.
I, maybe I'm not for everyone and that's okay. Right.
Right. Right.
Right. What I should be shifting more on is like, I want people to like my work and like my ethic and like my communication.
And if they like me or not, it doesn't matter. And that's take, I'm still a work in progress on that point.
I think we all have work in progress. But I guess my other question, again, was kind of like what I was saying is, have you seen it more difficult to find or place people because of this new gentle, mindful, as you would put it? What was the other word you used? Yeah.
I'm trying to think of the right, the correct way. Yeah.
Safe is a good way to put it. Safe.
Yes and no. Like I think the Gen Z generation, I guess, like has, they'll just say no.
And so like, yes, like the real black would be like, okay, that doesn't work for you. Then it's not the right opportunity for you.
And I'd rather not place you because you're going to quit anyway. And like, we're going to waste time and resources.
So I think if we're going to find a silver lining, because that's my mentality, would be like, it's just opening the door for the right people. So I think like my job as a recruiter, my job, if we're going to use sales is I just need to paint the picture completely transparently.
Like this is what it looks like and it works for you or it doesn't. And I think as a sales tactic in general, you want the person to always feel like it's their decision, right? Like even if I'm guiding the process and I'm guiding the decision process, I want you to always feel like you're the one making the choice.
And so it's like, here's exactly what it looks like. If this doesn't work for you, that's okay.
And I'm not going to be offended if this isn't the right opportunity for you. Here's why I think it is.
And you can let me know if you want to have a conversation about it. And I will say there are like, when I think about the senior C-suite level, not even C-suite, but like just senior director, VP level to like this younger generation.
There is a difference in work ethic in terms of like what they are willing to do, like commuting to COVID really. Like when I first started my hiring and, you know, the world was not on fire yet was 45 minute queue was normal.
And now people are like, I leaving my house um so that's definitely been different so like if we have a role that's in office and it's like more than 30 minutes we can't like search I would say 30 minutes like the max people are willing to drive really yeah and that's shifted a lot because it used to be like you know in Toronto people could live outside of the city and they would willingly commute in every day and I remember yeah it's not a thing anymore when i was living in toronto and i was at the raptors at the time oh fun i remember people were coming in taking them and they took like they were living in all these places that were i can say the names people won't know but like oakfield this is all whatever it was i know yeah i know you know but 45 minutes to an hour and it was like kind of what they what you did and it was just normal and no one cared yeah well it was not it was not that they didn't care. It's what you had to do.
Yeah. They knew it was a part of the, what was needed.
If you want, if you, if you wanted the job, like it was what was required of you. And this is my issue.
It's like, what is required? Like sometimes you're going to have to go above and beyond what you want to do to get to where you want to be. And that's what I'm talking about.
But like now there's a whole thing on like how Gen Z, do you know that 26% of Gen Z are now bringing their parent to a job interview because they don't feel comfortable and confident enough to have an interview. Yeah.
This is what's happening in, well, in the US anyway. I don't know what the numbers are.

You've never experienced anything like this? No, I've never experienced that before. I definitely have experienced like mid-interview

process, sort of like, you know, you meet the hiring manager, you meet me and then you'll

meet the hiring manager and someone being like, you know, I don't feel like this is the right

environment for me. Like pulling out before their interview.
That's the most sort of like

Gen Z behavior I've experienced.

Pulling out before the interview?

Yeah, like sort of like, say an emergency came up and you had to move your meeting, you know, it's like, I'm so sorry I have to push this. And then being like, you don't respect my time.
So I'm not going to come to the interview today. And it could have been like the interview person like had to run to their kid's daycare because their kid had to like anything.
So I find there's like less, there's like a lack of empathy or maybe, I don't know if that's the right way. Hold on, you're telling me that someone that you are interviewing for a job, for them to have a job, and you had to switch it, let's just say, to reschedule.
My client needed me to move it, and they were like, oh, no, you obviously don't respect me. See, this is the kind of bullshit that I'm talking about.
No, I don't disagree with you, and I remember being like, this isn't a personal attack on you. This is like the reality of this person's schedule and it happened.
The fact that you're justifying it to this person, to me is even crazy. Like, let me get this straight.
I'm going to help you find a job that you could pay your bills with. And I don't, because I had to reschedule and shift, you know, they're telling you now what's what.
This is my problem with Gen Z. Right.
Yep. No, it's such terrible.
What's interesting too is it's so like vastly different.

Like you can tell in the way you communicate with people.

And I think like there also is a whole new world of work that didn't exist when we were

choosing our careers.

Like to your point, like kids want to be influencers now.

That wasn't a thing.

They want to be, or in social media.

Or in social media or like, I don't know, paid to like sell a product and, you know, gummy bear hair, whatever. Right.
They want to either like, or they want to, there's other types of jobs out there like social media managers or creators. Content creators is a big one, right? Yeah.
And I think having young kids now, I'm like, oh, that's interesting. You're growing up in this whole world.
Yeah. He's, my oldest is almost four, so we're not there yet.
But I do feel like it's just this whole other parenting dynamic. And so when you talk about the generational changes in the interview process or in the hiring force, does that come back to like parenting too, which is interesting.
It does, kind of. I guess you're right.
And like what jobs, what kind of careers kids are wanting to seek is, like you said, very different than what it used to be. Like it used to be doctor, lawyer, let's say.
Yeah, yeah. Nurse.
Oh, now it's like, how can I like get into AI or get into content creation? Content creation is a big one or the YouTuber. AI is a big one, but AI is like going to be taking over like both of our jobs.
Like we won't need, they won't need recruiters. They won't need podcasters.
They won't need anything. I do feel like there is a reality where there's like a human interaction that can't be replaced.
And 100%, like even now I use ChatGPT and different AI tools to help me write more efficiently or create content or whatever that looks like. But I do think there's a way for us to work.
I mean, maybe I'm being naive, but like harmoniously with AI without it fully replacing. And I think, yes, there's going to be a ton of jobs that are replaced, but I also think it's going to create different opportunities.
So I think there, again, maybe I'm just like, like cautiously optimistic all of the time, but I do think as much as things are going to shift, I do think it's still going to create new opportunities. Well, what I would think would be a really great area to get involved with is how to use AI because someone's going to have to like, I would think, manually work it.
So even though AI is going to be taking over a lot of different jobs, and they are already being... To your point, I use it when I need to do a presentation or some type of really huge communication piece or research or all these things.
Research has been so useful. Research is so useful.
But you have to know how to use it effectively. So having people to actually like use it or teach it is very, very valuable.
Or I think too, like when I'm thinking about my own future or your own future too, where you're like, okay, so what are podcasters or what are recruiters going to need specifically help from AI and how can I monetize that? Yeah. And I don't know the answer, but like that's something I think about a lot.
My husband and I talk about it. He's like, I know, but what are you going to need? Like how are recruitment and AI going to be partners and how can you be the one to start that platform? Yeah, exactly.
I don't know. I'd love to.
I need to figure it out. But it's a way to kind of like, so you're utilizing AI, but in a way that also incorporates a human person.

Yeah, because I mean, I'm hopeful that not all of us will be completely eliminated. Absolutely.
Yeah. Well, like I said, I think that there are going to have to be people that man the AI or teach the AI or keep on like creating versions and versions of it.
Or, you know, the truth is, like, you can't, like, a layman's person like me going on AI to research something is very different than someone who really knows how to use it well. And they're very, they know exactly, specifically how to talk to it.
And they may get more. Yeah.
And they will get way better, more unique information, you know, basically out. You already see it, too, though, like, those master, like, master classes available being, like, how to, like, use ai and how to be better at it and yeah we it's kind of one of those situations where we kind of got to get on board and um but i think there's we're in the middle of this cool gap opportunity from like an employment and workforce perspective is like there is a way for us to like monetize what this looks like i just don't know the answer i know well it's a work i'll let you progress.
I'll let you know when I figure it out. Thank you.
Well, okay. So thank you.
Let me know. What other things can we, can you teach us or that we can glean from you in terms of the workforce, what we could be looking at? Is there anything else that you, we can like give our audience? Yeah.
I think we touched on it briefly, but like when we're talking about emotional intelligence, just two things, one on the client side. So like on the hiring side, we need to let go a little bit of like the classic resume that has the exact same job title and the work experience you need and like focus a little bit more on like what's transferable.
So like that's one of the things I feel like companies aren't doing. And so I think we need to find a way in your interview process, like is there a way to talk about resiliency and behavioral concepts and social constructs and bringing that into that in addition to what they technically need? And then the piece on the candidate side that I would say that I think is, we touched on this, but like, I will not ever stop talking about like the power of your network.
And so like, if you're all the way from a new grad, if you're a new grad and you're looking for a job, who do you know what the company you're looking for and how can you get a direct connection? Cause that's going to go further than your resume all the way up to like those senior executive levels. It's like, how are you communicating? And the way we all know each other is the way you're going to get ahead.
I hate to say that, but it's, it is who you know, to a certain extent. And even my own client base, when I first started, I literally just reached out to everyone I've never met ever, essentially.
It's like, I started this company and like, does anyone want to help me? And a lot of it's a slow game, right? Like I have clients even just this year who like I reached out to like three years ago and they're like, hey, you know what? I am ready now. And you're like, great.
I'm glad I kept, I got, it's like that fine line where you don't want to be annoying in recruiting. Like you want to, it's like, I want to be like pushy to a certain extent, but I want you to still want to hear from me.
See, this is the EQ part, right? Like you teach that because that's like a very, that's a, that's a skill to know how much to do where you're not pushy versus annoying or annoying. Well, cause I think you try to put yourself in the other side of it.
Like what would I want to hear? And like, I think again, making people feel like it's their choice too. Right.
So it's like, if you don't want to hear from me, no problem. Please just let me know.
Exactly. But it's really important to really build out your network.
I think like you, like we say that there's a reason why I believe this cliche, it's not what you know, it's who you know. And it's about like networking well.
And I always say that everybody could be a conduit to someone else. So it's not who you're speaking to at that exact moment, but they have a whole network.
And then that person has a whole network. So always leave another meeting with another name.
That's what I always tell people. I love that.
Yeah. But thank you so much, Colleen, for coming on.
I really appreciate this information. This was really fun.
I hope people have gleaned a lot of, I think they have, they've gleaned a lot of actionable things and what other areas they can look at or look into that maybe they haven't thought of. Where do people find you? Yeah.
So our two main platforms would be LinkedIn and Instagram. So Instagram is at the lynchpin co and then on LinkedIn, it's just the lynchpin co.
So please come find us and follow along. Thank you so much.
I'm going to follow you. Of course, you're welcome.
I love this. I think it's very helpful.
I like to give people things that they can actually utilize and

things that are helpful. And this is definitely one of them, especially in the time we're in now.

So thank you so much. Thank you.
Bye.