Episode 297: Dr. Nicole LePera: The Holistic Psychologist on Why You Feel Stuck in Your Relationships + What to Do About It

Hi, guys, it's Tony Robbins.

You're listening to Habits and Hustle, Greg.

So, Nicola Para is on the podcast again because I love her, and apparently, so does everybody else.

She has another book out, and it's called How to Be the Love You Seek.

And if you guys are not living under a rock, of course, you know who she is.

And all of your book, your work on self-healing, on trauma, has obviously touched a massive chord with because there's not one person, by the way, that does not know who you are.

Like, I told you, I was saying to, I was telling you before this, I was at a dinner and I was like telling them that you were on this podcast.

Like, the whole table was like, oh my God, I love her.

Like, you're like bigger than, like, I don't even know who's the, like, Brianna at this point.

I swear.

It's amazing.

So, congratulations.

Thank you.

And thank you for having me back, Jennifer, as always.

I love our conversations.

I love you.

You're the best.

Your book is so, all your books.

And I was saying, like, I feel like it hits such a chord because I feel like all of us have had some form of trauma in our life that we,

even if it's not a big trauma, these like small traumas that are affecting our relationships and everything we do, even

from a small child, those things affect what we do as adults.

And there's a disconnect a lot of times.

We don't know why we do the things we do.

And then why I'm even saying this is because I don't even remember so many things in my childhood.

Like I have friends who like remember everything about their childhood.

And I have a few memories, but I don't like remember a lot.

And once I started saying that out loud to people, they're like, yeah, me neither.

Which then thought to myself, that I thought to myself, it must be common.

And what does that mean if we don't remember so much of our childhood?

I want to go back to this idea of the things that could happen to us because for a very long time, similarly, not being able to recall my childhood and not having, you know, or so I thought the big things that I was trained to look for.

Not having had those happen in my childhood, those, you know, big cataclysmic moments, instances of abuse or physical neglect.

I always had a present.

parent that celebrated me in a lot of ways for my multiple achievements.

So not having an understanding that anything had happened to me, I was really left at a loss.

And I was joking with you beforehand.

And but jokes aside, I mean, I thought I even considered that maybe there's something, you know, structurally wrong with my brain.

Yeah.

Because probably around high school, I started to realize when my friends at that time would share, you know, what their childhoods were like, what memories of Christmases were like, and things like that.

And it became actually a running joke that, oh, Nicole doesn't remember anything.

And then that was kind of compounded by, oh, well, because, you know, I like to party in high school.

So maybe Nicole doesn't remember anything because she likes to party too much, you know?

And again, meanwhile, though, I'm like, well, what is wrong with me?

Why don't I remember?

And I talk about in my first book, really expanding the definition of trauma.

And it absolutely applies to this book because the reason I wasn't remembering wasn't because the big bad thing happened, as is the case for a lot of us.

It's what didn't happen.

And what didn't happen in my relationship, at least, and being a relational creature, I mean, we're fully dependent on another human to care for our physical self in childhood and actually to help us emotionally regulate in childhood.

And when we don't have that attunement, I did not have that in my family.

My family was consumed in their own survival mode, struggling with chronic illness, with health crises.

And my mom, again, ill-equipped, not taught, not attuned to by her own parents, wasn't able to be emotionally available for me.

So in absence of the big thing that happened, having the stress of not having that safe parent figure to attune to me and more so to help my nervous system quite literally deal with the stress of daily life, of what was happening and then how I adapted as we will all do because we need those bonds.

We need someone to care for us enough to keep showing up in service of our survival.

So we begin to modify who we are and how we are and in terms of the ability then to recall.

And again, I'm being very intentional, but not calling it a memory

because we actually do remember.

The ability to recall though is impacted when cortisol, the stress hormone, right, when stress is happening in our body, and that happens beginning in utero for us.

So I think a lot about my stressed out mom, all of the cortisol running through her body, her body's inability to regulate it, and then the impact that that had on my developing brain.

Then of course, once I was born, same amount of cortisol, unable to regulate it.

That impacts a part of our brain called the hippocampus, which deals with memory.

So that's why a lot of us, we can't pull that movie screen up or retell what it was, though again, very intentionally, we do remember it.

We remember it in our habits, in our patterns, in things that I saw as I'm sure we'll continue to talk about my way of being in my relationships, the way I navigated stress, which was not well at all, detaching, dissociating.

So our mind and our body actually does remember.

We're a living memory.

So of course, I think the next question is, well, can we create change if we can't recall it?

Yes.

Absolutely.

We can become really present, I'm sure, to some of the habits, relational habits that we'll talk about today.

But I mean, relational trauma is real.

It's now seen in the psychiatric or psychological community as CPTSD that comes from relational trauma.

So again, those big moments, we used to give the diagnosis of PTSD.

Right.

And now we're understanding that complex trauma happens when you don't have that secure attachment figure.

So does that mean then when we're not recalling our memories, it's because we've had these little forms of, like these little forms of trauma or experiences that were obviously very unpleasant in some way, that it's just something that we suppress.

Yes.

And then there's, I think, psychologically, there's that aspect of it too, right?

There's almost like a split in our consciousness.

The more stressful, overwhelming things happen, and the more ill-equipped we are to deal with it.

It's a kind of like suppression.

So it's there, right, in these neural networks, in our subconscious mind.

Oftentimes, it's manifested in these deep-rooted beliefs that we have about ourselves when we feel unworthy or unlovable, unless we're doing whatever it is that we imagined or learned to do, we have to do.

So it's all there, suppressed, to use your word, beneath the surface.

Does that mean the people who do remember, like the friends of mine who like remember every single birthday celebration, every Christmas, chanuka, whatever it is, is it because they've had no trauma?

Not necessarily.

I think some of us, you know, can hyper-remember.

Lolly, my partner, is one of those people who had very much an overwhelming childhood, though I call her, I say she has an elephant memory.

She has an ability to remember, I mean, everything from her childhood, everything from our relationship, which was, again, in the beginning, one of those points of she'd be like, do you remember when?

And my, it's interesting because my language back, so say we would even go to, you know, a bar, a restaurant, or whatever, we'd walk in, she'd be like, do you remember?

We were here last, you know, whenever with so-and-so.

And I'd be like, oh, it feels familiar.

And I always notice myself when they would, friends or partners would recollect something.

I would say, hmm, that feels familiar.

That feels like something, you know, and I think that really illustrates that my body, like walking into that place or when you're retelling this story, it's activating the lived experience because I was there, right?

So feeling in my body, but I started to note that there wasn't, it wasn't, you know,

I was using feel, I should say, because it was a feeling of familiarity, even though my mind couldn't say, oh yeah, we were at that table and so-and-so was here, but my body was generating that familiarity.

So

when is it considered just having a bad memory and something like that that you were mentioning with Lolly versus you having a bad experience or traumatic situation where you are now disassociating or detaching from it?

I think so what we're really getting into is

there ever a biological or physiological thing,

symptom, origin, maybe that's the word I want to say here, origin for something outside of environment or experience.

And I believe the answer is no, that there's always an interaction.

We're a developing physiological organism, again, in a body that's impacted by all of the life choices of that human before we even began to develop and that then when we were developing and then the environment that we're born into.

So it's kind of like the nature-nurture thing.

And I think this is why sometimes it can be confusing because structurally we do see changes in a brain, say, if we were to give an fMRI or whatever the technology is, right?

You'll see, oh, brains look different.

And so for a while we said, oh, we attribute it to, well, brains look different because genetically, right, you had that chip and you didn't have this chip or, right, it was our DNA.

And now I think we've evolved the science to a more epigenetic model, which is like, yeah, genes are playing part of the story, though so is lifestyle or environment.

So to speak to your point in terms of memory, right, our capability, our ability to do anything cognitively, in my opinion, can't just be reduced to, oh, it's just a bad chip or a faulty wiring, right?

It's always a connection to the choices around us.

And I've yet to meet a human actually that has come from a really securely connected, all needs consistently met childhood.

And I think mainly because of generations and generations that came before us didn't have access to information, had a lot of socio-political things happening, a lot of lacking resources.

And I think therefore you see more of us that are, you know, carrying a trauma or something from our unmet needs in childhood.

You know, it's so interesting.

Like when I read your book, right?

Because we talk, it talks a lot about like repeating patterns and all these things.

And someone like myself, who I do that, all, I mean, it's like, aha, I do this, I do this.

And you talk about your whole origin story, how you evolved in your relationships and romantic relationships.

And like, it really did strike a chord because I feel like everyone can relate to that to some degree, right?

And no matter how intelligent you are, right?

That this is what I find so interesting.

There's such a disconnect because you still repeat the pattern, even if you know better.

Yes.

Why?

Yes.

And I would see this not only in, I did a lot of work with individual clients, but also couples work.

I was very interested in dynamics and ran a lot of groups and sitting in the room with couple after couple

and coming up with tools, new plans of action, new ways to communicate, doing that for maybe 50 minutes together in a room,

troubleshooting, whatever the explosive argument could be that happens throughout the week.

And this is what you're going to do differently.

And break.

And yet, flash forward next week and or in the office a few minutes later, right?

I was watching this reenactment.

And the reason why, again, is because a lot of us revert back, right, in this conscious moment where we're reading the book or we're, you know, getting the tool from the therapist or, you know, having the insight.

We're in a different different part of our brain entirely.

We're operating with the very powerful prefrontal cortex that can consume new information and imagine a future that's different and create all these new solutions and use this insight.

Though oftentimes when we're going about our day, especially relationally, because this brings up so much of our childhood patterning and our wounding, we're operating from our subconscious mind.

And especially in moments where we're stressed out, where there's conflict, where we're at odds, right now, physiologically, even the blood is flowing away from our prefrontal cortex, is only flowing to that lower lizard brain.

I think the language that many of us are familiar with.

Totally.

And we actually quite literally lose access.

to all of the beautiful insights and things that we know to do better.

But I think this is, to speak to your point, a really shameful space to be in, especially as we have all this insight and all these know-betters.

And many of us have collected decades of consequences that come with these same patterns.

And sometimes we have well-meeting loved ones and friends in our life saying, hey, red flag, don't you see this is the same relationship?

Yet when we're in those moments, again, we're so reliant on, and for some of us, it's the identity that we've created about ourselves since childhood, the role.

I talk a lot about the neurobiological roles that I call conditioned selves, right?

This caretaker, overachiever, underachiever, you know, hero worshiper, all of these ways of being then that have become our familiar.

That's how we know ourselves.

That's how we know how to connect and how to relate to others.

And for some of us, that's how we define love.

And we then rely on the familiarity of that in our mind, in our body.

And we're pulled again for all those physiological reasons to continue to repeat those patterns, even if they don't serve us.

How do we even start changing that who we are in that role to be someone different to have a more healthy relationship?

Beautiful question.

And my answer will always be: I like to simplify change into two steps.

And the first step will always be becoming conscious of that role for this conversation purposes.

Notice, how is it that you're showing up in your relationship?

Are you connected to you?

Are you able to self-express your thoughts, your perspectives, your emotions?

Just be yourself.

And how is it that you are in relation?

to another person.

Are you taking on a role in and of itself?

So really kind of being that conscious observer where we're seeing how it is.

And I really am specifically saying that first point because I noticed and myself included in many past relationships, I didn't have a self.

I showed up solely in service of the connection, the relationship, just like I did in childhood.

I squashed my perspectives, my real thoughts, my emotions, because in childhood, there wasn't really space for those.

Anytime that I would, you know, say something or do something or express in a way that, you know, was against my mom in particular, her wishes, she would be disappointed, she would be angry, she didn't like it.

One of the main ways that she coped with her emotions, because she didn't learn how to in her own childhood, was to distance herself from me at times when it was at its worst, to give me the silent treatment, me and others.

So, right, the more consistently that happens, and of course, other people might have had an explosive parent, a reactive parent, whatever it was that we learned in childhood and whatever space or lack thereof for our uniqueness, because we need those connections, we'll modify and we'll begin to play those roles.

So I saw myself not not being, right, being hyper vigilant, fawning as we call it.

I think a lot of us as a protection, right?

If I'm attuned to you and if I kind of notice how you are and what you need and I don't cause upset, then just like in childhood, I'm more likely to stay connected in this relationship.

So I saw that play out where, I mean, it wasn't even really about if I liked you in relationships.

It was do you like me?

Right.

Even if deep down I'm like, oh, this relationship isn't feeling great for me.

It was really just keeping that connection based on, again, what someone else needed.

I think that's very common.

People get very hung up on if that other person likes them and that keeps them going, you know, because they need that validation versus ever checking in and be like, do I even like this person in the first place?

So is that stemmed from this place of like feeling good enough, being good enough, like the other person's need is so much more valuable than your own?

Yeah, I think when it really comes down to it, we share.

And I started to, to, as I, you know, would speak to people, especially now, as I have the opportunity to speak to people who've created incredible, right, like much like yourself things in their life.

And as, you know, conversations would continue, I started to hear a theme that very few of us feel truly worthy.

And I started to kind of explore, like, you know, why could that be?

Why could it be no matter what you're, you know, creating in your life or how you're, you know, you might even have the possibility of relationship after relationship, yet you are that person, again, who's so worried about being liked as opposed to tuning to myself.

And I believe, and I talk a bit about this in the book, that again, in childhood, if and when we didn't have our needs consistently met beyond just our physical needs, right?

The roof over our head, food on our plate, when we didn't have someone who was curious about our thoughts and our perspectives and our emotions and didn't just project their emotions onto us and helped us learn how to regulate, right, who it is that we are.

When we didn't have that, right, again, we had to modify ourselves to fit in to how it was that that person was available and at our internally though right to make sense of it because we're always trying to make sense of the world right why is this person not physically present why is this person not emotionally present when we're in from birth until age seven developmentally we're in what is called an egocentric stage of development we can't zoom out like we get the capability to in adulthood and right hold all these different perspectives kind of see that you know mom or dad or whomever the caregiver was had other things going on maybe they had a grueling job that they had to you know pay the finances to keep the food on the table for us we couldn't understand that or in my instance i couldn't understand that emotionally my mom was ill-equipped to be emotionally available to me in childhood when the world revolves around us in that egocentric way the only way that we can make sense of the world is it has to connect back to us.

So their presence, their lack of presence, their emotional capacity all has something to do with us.

So to really simplify it, when our needs aren't consistently met in childhood, we do develop some kind of narrative around, oh, I must not be worthy to have those needs met.

I must not be lovable enough to be connected to or to be cared for in the way that I need to.

And again, I believe that.

The large majority of us at least have had some unmet needs.

So that's why I think at our core, we do feel unworthy.

And then you see all these manifestations where I'm only worried about being liked or, right, I only have to show up in service of you.

And that's how I maybe keep you to stay around and do all of these different things to maintain that connection.

Because again, we don't feel like just being me is enough.

It's so interesting because I guess if we were, like, if I were to think about it, right, like all our parents from our generation, right, they didn't have the tools and the assets that we have now, right?

Or they didn't have them to like, therapy wasn't a thing back then.

And they didn't have all these people like you to give them insight or whatever.

So we're all a byproduct of that.

And that's probably why this is so striking a core to so many millions of people.

And that's why we're all, I would hate to say the word damaged in a way, because we're not damaged, but we're traumatized in a real way.

And to like, I guess, even if we have the wherewithal to know where it's coming from, to behave differently is so hard to do.

You know, like, where do people start?

I know you said like recognizing it, being conscious of it, but then day to day, don't we always just fall back to our baseline?

It's so easy to fall right back to what we're comfortable with.

Yeah, I just want to say something too about generationally, because there was a time where when outside of when we didn't have resources, I mean, even just here in the States going through the Great Depression and like things like that, where there weren't financial resources, physical needs weren't being met, when there were no access at all.

Yeah.

And again, there still lacks access here and outside of here.

Many other countries don't have any of these tools and resources.

Though, when psychologists did come on the scene, this blows my mind.

And parenting, right, was a topic for very many years, decades even, until really recently.

The main model of parenting was a behaviorist model, which is simply like treating humans like an animal with reinforcement, rewards, and punishments, right?

And it's this kind of like cry it out in the bedroom type of parenting.

Again, all very well-intentioned thinking that humans were like animals so true in a lot of ways so to speak to your really wise point Jennifer I mean the reality of it is they were ill-equipped and many until today are taking these models where we're not viewing the human and the tiny developing human as an emotional being that has more needs and not and that we're dealing with emotions in this behaviorist way and that just really doesn't work.

But to speak to your point, becoming conscious, right, seeing the patterns are part of the journey.

But then that second step that I didn't yet mention is making new choices, right?

Beginning to break those patterns now, which means we have to create a habit or create the space in our day to shift, right?

Whatever it is that we're doing, to do something different.

And for a lot of us, it really means building the ability in our mind and body, which is why when you read this book, it does focus a lot on the holistic side of the human relational being.

And a lot of it is on, yes, it's on relationships and relating to other people, though it's also on rebuilding our relationship with ourself and our physical body and our nervous system in particular.

Because when we don't, right, we are going to be in that subconscious autopilot when we're feeling stressed, like I was describing earlier, for all those physiological reasons.

We're going to somewhere after the fact, and sometimes I'm even saying something out of my mouth that I know I don't mean.

And I'm like, why are you saying that, Nicole?

You know, because I've already lost that conscious control and the ability to choose.

So it's it's the daily commitment to building the practices in so that I can retain my space of consciousness.

I can be that observer in real time where I'm going to say or do or react in that way.

And I can begin to make that new choices.

And more often than not, the new choices originate in my body and actually regulating the increased heart rate, the quickened breath, the tension in my muscles, and all the things that are going to quickly send me over that point of no return, reacting or dissociating and detaching, whatever it is that you typically do.

And those are the moments where as I learn to widen my window or be able to deal with more stressful moments while I'm calm and grounded and responsive, then I actually get the opportunity to make those choices, which is why I think it's really frustrating.

We can read beautiful books and have all of this information.

And if we're not every day, as I am still committed to taking care of our body and our nervous system and actually teaching ourselves how to be responsive and be empowered, I talk a lot about an empowered relationship, retaining that space of choice.

We're not, we're going to be really frustrated and probably really shameful and really damaging to our relationship with ourself and with other people.

That's so true.

And also, because we, we talked about this before, but it's all about like regulating your nervous system too, right?

How do you?

I mean, we may hear these things, you may, you may talk about them, and then the acting of them or knowing what to do with it is really hard.

So I would like to talk about the basics.

They're not so basic, but like these trauma bonds, because it comes down to who you're, unfortunately, who you're actually attracted to, right?

Like all this could be moot when you're physically only attracted to a certain type.

You won't make a choice towards the better choice, right?

Because you're gravitating to the wrong choice.

And how do we switch or change who we're attracted to so we're not making the same bad decisions over and over again?

Often when I when I hear you say attracted and I think a lot of what we're doing or what the what's happening in those moments, right?

It's because again attraction I think a lot of us like oh I think you're you know

attractive and I want to like you know have something happen.

Often what we're attracted

to is the familiarity.

Yes.

Right.

So we really have to you know give some nuance or if you will to what we're actually feeling and often what we're feeling and sometimes it is the familiarity of that high right stressful which sometimes feels like like passion, right?

That roller coaster moment.

Though again, that might not be attraction per se.

That might be the same neurobiological chemical cocktail that maybe was very consistently present in our traumatic childhood with a reactive parent or whatever was happening in the home or instability and, you know, all of the feelings that come along with that.

Though, yes, to speak to your point, we are going to be subconsciously gravitating towards certain people and dynamics more so that are, again, replicated or usually a familiar type dynamic than is the first one that we've experienced.

But for a lot of us, it means like the same biological feelings are going to be what feels good, which is, I think, why for a lot of us, when we go to get over that honeymoon stage, or even when we meet someone where we don't feel like we're on that dramatic roller coaster to begin with, right?

We're like, oh, this is boring.

They might not be for us.

Or maybe this relationship is over now that those feelings went away.

And what we might be reacting to is not a lack of attraction, it might be the lack of that familiar physiology that, again, we've learned to define as connection, as love, as someone appealing for us.

That's so on point.

I agree with that so much.

It makes so much sense to me.

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One thing that's funny because you talk a little, you mentioned this in the book, actually, the five love languages, and it's so trite to me, you know, like, well, if you like to, if you like to, you know, words of affirmation, I wish it was that simple, right?

If I can just tell you, if I can show you your love language, I'll just compliment you and then you can just buy me things or whatever the non-like that is.

Like, what is your take on that?

Like, do you think that type of simplicity works to help relationships flourish?

Because it seems to me it's not taking into consideration a lot of other things that are happening.

I think what can be incredibly helpful and has benefited a lot of us when we've learned about or heard this concept of the law of language is it introduces the reality that there's a different other person.

Right.

Right.

That might register for in this context love or these gestures in a different way.

And again, that's that's big because we are all driven and I think about childhood a lot and I use this example often of when we're children in our home until we go over to friends' homes, there's a very big part of our world that imagines every family looks the same, right?

Every family has the same kind of daily routine or lack thereof.

And then we start to go over and like, oh, this family doesn't have that caregiver present or dinner time looks a little different over here or mom acts a little different, right?

And then we start to widen our perspective to see different other people.

So when we meet a concept like love languages, and you can have a conversation with a partner or a friend or whomever and say, Well, I like gestures, and here, oh, I like words of affirmation.

Oh my gosh, okay, now I can learn how to speak.

I'm introduced to the fact that you're different, a different, you know, experience with this concept.

And I can learn, if I so choose, right, how to speak your language so that you can register love.

I think what does become sometimes incomplete with that concept is, and I fell into this a lot with my past partners and with Lolly in particular, sometimes the language that we're most attracted to, again, we have to remember, was born in a particular dynamic, right?

So it might not be a full expression.

So just to use my example, I came from a very predictable household.

One of the major ways that all of the stress and overwhelm of all of the health-related things that were happening was through this, I mean, like breakfast was at a certain time.

There was a certain amount of foods that were eaten for breakfast.

Dinner was at 5.30 the second my dad got home from work like predictable.

Everything was the same.

And one of the main ways my mom showed love or connection to us, the whole family, was because in absence of being able to emotionally attune, she would very much cook the dinner, make my favorite meal, make sure my clothes were ironed and in my thing, you know, that's how love was displayed.

So now flash forward in time, and this was really apparent to me with Lolly, when we met and I would get home from work, I would work later because I had sessions and well into the evening.

So she was typically home and I would get home with an expectation that predictably, right, there'd be dinner on my table or the dishes would be done.

The house would be clean just like I learned growing up.

I would walk in and lo and behold, was I in for a surprise?

Because none of that would be the case.

Right.

Right.

So I have an expectation and now it's being unmet.

So now I'm upset or disappointed.

Right.

And then I assign this old meaning.

Well, she must not.

Love in my language consider me, right?

Cause that's what I was used to.

That was consideration.

When dinner was on the table, table, that's how my mom considered us all.

And when dishes were done, little did I know, right, as I learned more about Lolly and her past, not only did her family not have a cohesive unit, they were very much like, fend for yourself, we all eat dinner at different times and do our own thing.

There was actually a lot of reactivity that she experienced when around like tidiness and chores.

And when she wasn't naturally tidy or didn't do chores, there was a lot of explosion.

So now I'm coming home disappointed, feeling unloved.

As you can imagine, I didn't say thank you for doing nothing.

I said, you know, I erupt it sometimes or I, you know, I would close myself off.

And she's like, what's wrong?

Aren't you going to make dinner?

No, I'm not hungry, right?

Clearly upset.

Yeah.

Which would only then like dominoes upset her because now she's going back, right, to her childhood where she doesn't know why I'm upset.

And I'm now making accusations.

You don't love, you don't care, you don't consider me.

She's at a loss because there probably were seven things that she had done that day that were in loving, caring, consideration of me, right?

And I'm so hooked on this only one way because I learned it in childhood.

And again, my reactivity set off her reactivity.

And then we just became a ball of conflict around that.

So in general, again, that's just one example of how very clearly even our past relationships with what I was defining as love as gestures.

Yeah, it's nice when there's dinner made for me, but now I've learned that there's many other ways that I'm loved and cared for and considered that I can now see and work to receive, especially around emotional support in my relationships, which is what I kind of am petitioning for.

Yes, love languages can be part of the journey.

But again, even to speak to the title of the book, I think what I'm hoping to help us all evolve to in our relationships is being in that kind of state of love, connecting with our heart where we can allow, right, an individual self-expression be what it is and beginning to open up those blinders where we can maybe see all of the other ways and allow in other moments of connection, especially if you do have a partner that your preferred love language per se, right, isn't something that comes easy or natural to them.

Well, yeah, you know, and then as you, when I was reading your book also though, because you do what I, I mean, I think we all do the same thing.

It's like, well, we're obviously not getting along.

Let's go find someone who we get along with better, right?

That's like the go-to, right?

So like, when do you take ownership?

When is it about you having your set, not you personally?

Like when we have our set ways of thinking because of what we've dealt with in our life versus if someone's just a bad fit for us.

Yeah.

And I very much, I think like many of us prior to Lolly would come to the conclusion or the resentment would build up so much.

And I would deem that relationship just not good for me and try to find, again, this more perfect.

partner.

I think as you go on this journey and become aware of what you're doing, what you're bringing in, what you're creating in terms of the dynamic, you know, you could, you know, go one of two different directions.

You could begin to see and celebrate.

And of course, if you have an aware and committed partner to also hearing your perspective and learning how to give and receive support and maybe ways that could work for both of you, I do think the dynamic of a trauma bond, much like Lolly and I went through, can shift.

Tell everyone if they don't know what a trauma bond is.

So we've been essentially talking about that.

It's all these dysfunctional patterns or ways that we show up in a particular relationship that doesn't allow us to honor ourself as a unique being with our needs, doesn't allow us to give and take support.

I think, you know, anytime it doesn't, we're relying again on those older habits usually ends up being we don't feel fulfilled, we feel resentful, we feel angry, we don't feel like we're getting our needs met in our relationships.

Yeah.

And then we continue to, no matter how much we want to change or be different, we continue to be stuck in those patterns.

And to speak to anyone asking in their mind, well, can that change?

Absolutely.

Lolly met, and when I met Lolly, we had a lot of dysfunctional trauma bond patterns.

Again, this habitual ways I was one of them was that very frequent occurrence, right?

Every night I was day in and day out, right?

So we came to an awareness, like I described, you're able to shift it into a more safely and secure, authentic relationship that you might continue to be in.

Though for some of us, the end road is, you know, we're not aligned.

And I think the bigger, deeper things to be aligned around are, you know, your own kind of individual values and what it is that you want and see for your future.

And even going back to you kind of us both acknowledging that very few of us kind of drop in and assess whether or not we're interested or attracted to the other person.

I think something else that lacks in relationships or developing relationships is communication around shared goals and visions and even definitions of like what you want for your future.

And do you want marriage and are kids a part of it?

And where might we want to live?

And those type of deeper things.

Totally.

I think they're not talked about as much for many different reasons.

Maybe because we don't yet know ourselves enough.

Maybe because we're so afraid to share what it is that we want in fear of not hearing that, you know, agreement from someone else.

But I think those are the things that as you go on this journey, if there is a misalignment, if you can't, you know, if you want a family or a committed marriage, you know, kind of in any sense, and it doesn't look like what you're hearing that your partner wants, if you don't want to live in the same environment.

I mean, these are big, you know, big kind of life choices that I think could, if there's not alignment there, might be we decide to move on.

Right.

But it's so easy though to like, to blame the other person, right?

But it's, it's because it's, you, it's very easy to be like, well, this is not working because they're this way, like the blame game, right?

And to, why did you work it through with Lolly?

Let's say were you because you've you were at a place already in your life where you had enough self-awareness.

You saw that you were the common denominator, of course.

But like, what made you do this with like with Lolly, work through the dysfunction to get to the place where you guys are now?

Yeah, I think part of it was where I was in terms of awareness.

So prior to meeting Lolly, I was in a marriage previously.

Yeah.

When I was in a...

Vivian?

Vivian, yes.

That's her name.

Wink, Wink.

Short.

It's in the book.

It's just being a book.

Yes,

that is her pseudonym.

It's not her real name.

She and I, though, we moved from New York to Philadelphia together.

And at that time, I was finishing up my clinical hours, and I was doing so at a psychoanalytic institute for learning and seeing clients and all the things.

So, saying that to say, I was in my own analysis at that time and also a group analysis.

One hour, one hour and a half a week, I would sit in a room with other analysts.

It was very overwhelming.

And we would essentially just free associate and discuss our experience and dynamic with everyone in the room.

So, at that point, was when I started to inherit other, my colleagues' perception and experience of me.

And I really started to kind of get in a percolator of like, oh, okay, like, so I'm bringing some dynamics into at least my work relationships.

And at that point, then really kind of highlight it for me in addition to the move itself, coming from a very, you know, kind of close-knit social community.

I had a whole life built in New York.

I was there for almost a decade before we moved.

So when I met Vivian, I had a whole, you know, very busy, and this is one of the ways I dealt with all of my underlying stress and anxiety and all of the emotions that I didn't learn to deal with.

I kept myself busy.

I kept myself planned.

There wasn't a day or of the week that I didn't have someone to hang out with.

And I was living in New York City, which is like an endless, you know, amount of stimulation.

So distracted constantly.

And that's, again, I talk about distraction as a flight response, how some of us, and sometimes it can look very socially validated and accepted, right?

I'm just on the go all the time and endlessly achieving.

And I'm at the PTA meeting and the work and the this and the that.

And for a lot of us, that's how we've learned to, you know, cope with all of the deep-rooted feelings, which is why we end up feeling exhausted and empty, even when, and this is what I felt, even getting all of these accomplishments, when I kind of like checked that last box, I hung my shingle, I did all the things.

Why was I feeling so exhausted and so empty to the point where I was actually, I was fantasizing of leaving, of running away.

I would joke with Lolly when we first met about, I want to go be a barista in an island somewhere.

She's like, you just got your PhD.

It took you eight years.

What are you talking about?

I was like, I don't want to do it anymore because I'm just so tired and it doesn't, it's not, it's not fulfilling for me in any way.

So when we moved though to Philly prior to meeting Lolly and didn't have that social network, it really, in addition to being in this training program, it really got me seeing, again, the disconnection that she and I had had.

So when I then I committed to being single for a bit, I lived on my own for the the first time.

My mom thought I was crazy because she and her my family lived right over the bridge in New Jersey.

She's like, don't you want to move home?

There's a very codependent mom.

She's like, there's a room upstairs.

And I'm like, no, I must live on my own.

This is important for me.

Like I want to have this experience.

And then I met Lolly and the reason why like I was sharing.

So I was already starting to like, as Taylor Swift so beautifully put it, I'm the problem.

It's me.

I was starting to somewhat become aware that I'm at least a little part of it.

And she was too very committed, something we had talked about from the beginning.

I knew kind of her relationship past and we were both very much committed to growing and learning and had a particular vision for the type of relationship that she and I had wanted.

So knowing that she was kind of committed as well is what kept me working through very difficult, you know, points and challenges that as we were navigating all of this old stuff and even just going through an awakening really together and changing is very difficult and watching then our relationship change.

Yeah, you know, in the book, you talk about this a lot.

You just touched on it now about the loneliness factor.

I find it so interesting how many people are really lonely in a relation, in their relationship.

And it's something that people don't talk about a lot.

I think it's like there's shame around it.

They feel, they feel bad.

They feel like it's shameful, really.

That's the best way to put it.

And, you know, is it because they're, again, is it the lack of communication?

Is it because they're not suited?

How do you start breaking down that problem and that pattern?

Because I'll tell you, like, especially here in LA, right?

With kids and work, and you look like you have it all, especially with social media.

You have like a sliver of like someone's life and you're doing all the things and yet, like, and you look perfect together.

But most of those people, if you really like speak with them in a real way, are really dissatisfied and lonely in their relationships.

I really appreciate you asking.

And I think that alone alone in a crowded room cliche or saying, whatever it is, really, again,

that decade I spent in New York, as I'm describing it, I was never actually alone, though I never felt connected.

I never felt more alone, more alone in a crowded room.

So that really is real.

And I do think for, you know, we feel very shameful to say it.

So we might even hear, reflect it back, you know, well, you have someone.

At least you have someone.

Be happy with what you have.

And again, I think a main cause, at least for my loneliness, was as even I was describing it earlier, right?

There was no me.

I wasn't even really connected to me.

I wasn't actually sharing my true thoughts and perspectives and wants and needs and emotions.

So, of course, and this was then no surprise with my major complaint in all of my relationships prior to now was I'm not emotionally connected to you.

I don't feel that depth.

I don't feel what I'm looking for.

Yeah.

And again, you were always the problem until I realized how could I ever feel connected to someone if I'm not in my body to feel connected to me?

And more so if I'm not actually expressing my true self, my true thoughts, my true feelings.

If I'm not being in the relationship, I could have a million people around me.

And of course, I feel lonely.

And I think for a lot of us, there's a deep disconnection.

So as much as, again, this is a book about relationships, there's so much foundationally in it about rebuilding that.

connection with you.

Right.

Because to be and feel that level of attunement, right?

There has to be that expression, right?

I have to share with you my true self, what it is that I'm really thinking in this moment, how it is that I'm really feeling, right?

That feeling of connection is actually an energetic

experience of, again, giving and receiving of this self-expression.

And when we're not, as I wasn't, right, a million miles away on my spaceship, just deferring to whatever you want to do for plants.

Couldn't even, I mean, I was that person.

What do you want for dinner?

I don't know.

What do you want?

Like, I couldn't.

And it's taking me now, right?

Because again, I was.

I just asked you that before.

I was told, and that wasn't coming from there.

I could actually drop it and tell you what I wanted.

But it's taken me a lot of practice.

And, you know, even back to this idea of like nervous system and wellness, of tuning to my body and eating, not just at breakfast time and lunchtime, whatever designated time I learn, but when is my body hungry?

And more so, what does my body want to eat?

And there's many moments, even now living with two partners, where I'm eating or doing and at a different time than they are.

And that's a big challenge, but it's those small things, right?

Because now I'm asking me and myself and my body and what I need.

And then how do I feel?

And what do I want to do with my day and my time, especially if it's not what's happening around me?

See, okay, that was a great segue, girl.

Okay.

I mean, there's no way I can.

You basically, you left it for me on a beautiful silver platter.

Okay.

I don't know if you caught it, but Nicole said, with my two partners, because now the whole podcast will, I don't know how I can get off of this topic, but so

cole talks about this in her book about an expanded relationship right so she you're not married though right you have two i'm married to well you're no so you have to but you've married oh yes but not married to both right you're married because you're not

technically yet okay so lolly is her wife and then they also expanded their relationship and they have a girlfriend named Jenna and it's called now it's you call it an expanded relationship but it is a thrupple yeah it's a technical name but I learned learned googling it myself.

I know.

I love it.

Wondering if it was a possibility.

And so, first of all, I knew about this before, and I was like, I'm like, I wonder if it's going to be in the book.

I wonder if it's going to, because the book is all about relationships.

And boom, like in the end of the book, there it is.

And I felt like, I was like, I was just, as you can tell, I'm even saying it now.

I'm like, just.

I have to ask you about it.

You have to describe it.

How did you get to a place where, number one, like having one wife or girlfriend is difficult.

Now you have two.

How did you evolve into

that type of relationship?

Like you have the floor.

Just start.

And actually, the evolution really maps onto a lot of the concepts that I shared throughout the book.

And again, like I was actually just sharing, Lolly and I have been since the beginning of our relationship committed to our individual and relational happiness, meaning we were both committed to honoring space and time for each of us to explore ourselves as people and to continue to assess and make sure that our relationship as a couple was a space that was benefiting both of us.

So we've always been committed to that and on our journey of evolution, you know, to kind of be just authentically ourselves.

We had both spent a lot of time being different things for different people.

So Flash forward in time, actually Jenna is someone that we connected with within the community.

As soon as I created the Instagram account, she started to really drop meaningful comments.

as soon as more or less she was.

How many years ago?

Since the origination of the account, 2018.

She actually has a beautiful story about this too, where she was introduced to the account by one of now her late brother's girlfriend at that time and showed her the account because Jenna was on a very similar journey in terms of her own evolution and wanting to create a wellness healing-based community in the world.

So she was kind of doing that on her own.

And she shares a beautiful story, though it's more hers to tell, but of being, you know, introduced to, well, do you know this person?

She's doing the thing that you want to do.

And

I had this whole experience.

It was very early on when I first set up the holistic psychologist account on Instagram.

And she started to then, when she hit follow, drop really meaningful comments.

I could see the alignment so much so that I like knew her as her handle at Jenna Weekland.

So, and as is still the case, I mean, there's still community members that like, I have a knowing of them just because they've been around or what they comment and, you know, being

at the beginning.

So she was there from the beginning.

Like, how many followers at this point when you were like

i mean less than a couple you know tens of thousands wow so like really so the beginning so much so that when i came out then i had the opportunity and it was still i think i might have only had a hundred plus thousand maybe a hundred thousand when lewis howes reached out um and wanted to have me on school of greatness i had been such a fan of his work for so long so i was like floored oh my gosh you want to talk to me so absolutely i'll fly out to california and do that and i had a couple other podcasts while i was out here so i was living living in Philly.

It was still very new.

Lolly and I fly out.

And while we're here, we're like, oh, there's probably a lot of community out in California.

I want to do a free meditation.

So I literally dropped the pin on a beach.

I was like, I think this is be where it is.

It was some random beach, like just like some random pull-up in Venice Beach.

I probably wasn't even allowed to do that because I didn't have a permit.

And I just told the community without knowing, really scared out of my mind because at this point, everything I did was virtual.

I'm very scared of speaking in front of people, but I thought this is important.

I I want to hold a meditation.

So lo and behold, in the morning comes, like a thousand people.

It was so many people.

How many people?

Like almost a thousand people showed up.

It was wild and how many people were there on the beach.

I have this beautiful picture.

A photographer came.

It's hanging up.

It's just, it was such a moving experience.

I did a free inner child meditation and afterward,

they all, many of them lined up and, oh my gosh, you're lining up to meet me.

So I like met everyone as I still do, this anyone.

So if anyone ever sees me and says hi or sees me out, please say hi.

You don't just realize, by the way, Nicole, if you had a thousand people show up when you had a couple hundred thousand people following you, can you imagine what mayhem would happen now?

You have like what eight million people on there following.

Yeah, 7.2.

Wow.

I was floored.

I never, I mean, I knew California was probably a lot of people that were resonating with my work, but I wouldn't have

been.

I want to say someone even like flew in for that particular.

I was so, I mean, they're really, I have chills right now.

Me too.

That is crazy.

It It really was like tangible, the impact that the community was making on myself and for them.

So yeah.

Because you know, I just realized like that, because that just shows how engaged that, it's a thousand people.

It was incredible.

You would literally like, you would fill up like the Sophie Stadium or like the stadiums here with what you have now if a thousand people showed up there.

I was floored, scared shitless, all the things.

At the end of the line, though, Jenna ended up.

She's the

She was the last one there.

She has her whole story about that day where she almost didn't come.

Very typical Jenna style, but she comes and I registered her right away and she gave me a very meaningful gift and we had an exchange and she then left.

And shortly after we opened up enrollment for the Self-Healer Circle.

And right when we opened up enrollment, because there were so many people, we did it right from Instagram.

Hey, it's open.

So everyone clicked on it at once and we literally crashed the server, the billing system, and had quite a technological pickle on our hand.

And it was at that point, just Lolly and I trying to navigate it all.

So within, we were very transparent to the community.

We put up a story letting everyone know what was happening and just updating them that we were like resolving it.

And Jenna, immediately upon seeing it, sent a DM and was like, I know what you're doing.

I see what you're doing.

I'm doing the same thing.

Like, I'm here to help in any way.

We saw it literally within a second of her sending it, even though we had had all those followers and we're on a call with her.

And she then began to help within the circle and has been an integral part.

So by the time then she was still living, she was living in Palm Springs, actually here with a friend and we were still in Philly knowing we were moving out here.

So I think within the next year, we ended up moving to Venice Beach.

She got an apartment a couple blocks away and then we started to kind of work together.

But she was working for you guys.

She was working.

So what was her role, like head of community?

She was like hand in hand with me running the circle oh she was she was yeah and she's also the one who you do all your videos with right yes videos podcasts like the one where you're like you guys act like active by the way those are that's brilliant because people can really like i love those because you can really understand the dynamic though too yeah and so she's the one you do those with so she's the one but she's been very much like helping me create the circle helping us navigate all the emails and tech issues that come in now building it out we've built out our own private portal i mean we have a whole tech team now that she leads and a whole team under her that helps support

them that she quit at the time to come do this with you?

Or she was, yeah, she was pursuing

her own parallel.

Yeah, and then she was like, let's just do it together.

That's amazing.

She ended up being just such, I mean, she, her strengths and talents and gifts are such a compliment to Lolly and I.

So as you can imagine, we spent a lot of time together.

Yeah.

Living in California, running this business.

And then obviously that bled into like, you know, doing personal things, celebrating birthdays and all of the things.

And so as then time went on, there became a period of time where things got really difficult and there was a lot of conflict and there was a lot of just like upset over stupid things and communication issues.

And all three of us being very committed to the cause, to the vision, to the business, we started to then openly be like, what's going on?

Like we need to figure out why we're struggling, why we're having conflict, why we're struggling to communicate.

So we were all kind of doing our own like, hmm, like trying to figure out what it was.

And when did that start?

Like, how long ago did that happen?

So, I want to say we were all we're almost together, officially, the three of us, for two years.

So, in the couple months prior to when we

things started to like hit, like, we need to talk about what's going on, place.

And it so happened that the course in that month, whatever month that it was that we had the conversation, I forget now, though I can look on my little schedule and figure out exactly.

It was on heart authenticity, courageous authenticity, connecting with your heart and speaking your truth.

And that was inspired.

So one morning we were doing our regular farmer's market Friday that we did every Friday.

And Jenic rolls over.

And that particular morning, she was meeting a friend before we went to the farmer's market, but she stopped by and she wanted to speak to us and both separately.

Okay.

So she comes in and sits me down and was like, you know, I've...

been thinking, you know, and kind of exploring for myself what it is that's going on.

And, you know, I could tell she was like wanting to tell me something that was emotional.

And she then goes on to say that the course, you know, even the topic idea was, you know, really kind of inspired by this desire to like just live your truth and speak what's on your heart.

And she's like, so I, you know, want to tell you that what is continuing to come up for me is that I want more than a professional relationship with both you and Lolly.

I'm attracted to you both.

Like I have feelings for you both.

Like I'm not even sure what to make of this myself.

I can't imagine what you're sitting here thinking right now, you know, though I know it's important.

And Jenna's been someone, one of her incredible gifts that ever inspires me today is her ability to always have been, despite all of the things, terrible things that she's had to navigate in her life.

She's always been connected to her heart and followed her heart.

So she's like, I want, I need to speak this to you.

Like, this is what's on my heart.

What I do know is I want to preserve our professional relationship just as much as I, you know, want to share this with you.

So I don't, you know, I want you to take time

and tell me and kind of drop into your heart and tell me what it is that you, you know, you make of this.

Though ultimately I don't want this to impact our business.

And then went and went and saw our friends.

So I didn't necessarily respond in that moment.

She didn't want me to respond in that moment.

Though afterward, Lolly and I obviously had a point to come together.

Yes and no.

I think I was relieved because I think obviously there was a part of me that was feeling obviously the same, attracted to her, unsure what to do with it, wouldn't even speak that in my mind.

I felt relieved that finally there was a reason, if you will, for all of these moments of tension.

And again, I go into the science behind that.

You know, when we're living in misalignment, you know, we're not in that kind of heartbreak coherence that I talk all about.

It really can contribute.

And it doesn't mean obviously that everyone wants to be in an expanded relationship.

But I mean, there's a lot of moments where we're not really saying what's on our heart.

So we are, you know, picking a fight about the dishes not being 100% expanded things.

Other things because we're not really telling you what's on our mind or what's really wrong you know or whatever it is so

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I'm glad to know that you do that too to this day, that that still is happening with you, even with all the information that you have.

It's all still happening.

That's why I even say, like, I'm having two partners trying to still be emotionally connected with them is still very unfamiliar.

Even though I have all the love in the world in front of me by two different people.

There's still that little girl that feels so vulnerable sharing my emotional needs, giving and receiving.

And that's an actual and embodied practice.

So it can be present and it can still be those old habits that are there.

Go on, go on, though.

So, what happened?

So, then Lolly and I had a conversation afterward and kind of acknowledged both of us feeling relieved that

that's what has been there and both interested and wanting to see.

So, Lolly also was as interested as you were.

As interested as I was.

Really?

And And we then, the three of us, were like unsure.

And so jokingly, I mean, when I said I Googled it, we went online.

Lolly is a big researcher.

She's like, I'm going to just go see what other people are doing.

So she starts pulling up videos and there was very limited, which is again a reason why I will continue to share that aspect.

And we did then come out publicly at a later time so that I, you know, could be more transparent.

We were running a podcast together, but we started Googling and the few examples, we learned the word thrupple because we knew we weren't, we weren't wanting to open the relationship.

And again, that is some people's path or date other people.

We really were like wanting to see, like, can three people be in a relationship?

And it turns out that someone at one point named it a thrupple.

I thought it was a cute name.

So I was like, oh, sure.

I guess that's what we're trying now.

And we then, you know, kind of continued and evolved the relationship and

figured out how to navigate three people in a relationship.

There are three women yet.

Like, I mean, is there like, so, and I asked you this before, and this is the thing I always think: like, is it because you and Lolly know each other, right, for so many years prior and you were married?

Like, what's the distinction?

Like, is there jealousy?

Does Jenna move into the house?

Do you guys all live together?

Are you guys sleeping in a bed?

Do you guys take turns in the bed?

Like, what are all the details?

We, when it began, Jenna still had officially her apartment in

Venice.

And we had a much smaller bed than we do now, although she began to spend many more overnights and time with us in Venice.

And then when we moved from Venice to Scottsdale, we moved into the same home where we live.

We got a very large bed.

They have those

extra-size beds.

What kind of nice?

It's like a triple or a king and a half.

It's obscene looking.

It takes up

a very large room.

It takes up the entirety of the room, essentially, so that the three of us can sleep.

We do share the bed, same bed every night.

With my cat, we need room for my little old lady that lives in the bedroom.

Don't forget about she's in the bedroom because she can't live out with the other boys though yes we started the boys we have other boy cats okay okay i was like what no other people okay i'm like what just using cats but my cat doesn't get along where she's too old to be around the other cats so she sleeps in the bedroom and with you guys with me who sleeps in the middle right now lolly typically does it change well i sleep on the end because i sleep with my cat hadley and jenna prefers to sleep on the end because she flails a bit in her sleep oh my god this is hilarious when we travel though so this has opened up a whole interesting world of, you know, accommodations when we travel and people like, do you want a cot or how's this going to work?

And will the bed be big enough?

Because we do operate as a unit.

We sleep together and we look, you know, we are, I mean, there are times I'm here now in California and the two of them are home.

So we have times where there's like a separation of, you know, one will go or two will travel elsewhere together and have time.

together to build like individual relationships and dynamics.

So of course there was a shifting and opening and a, you know, kind of difficulty, you know, to some extent.

Jenna integrating into an established relationship.

How does it happen?

It's the first step.

I mean, just living it and figuring out.

I think that there's not like a plan of

date because

no, we just, I mean, we were kind of just hung out as usual.

And it's amazing.

And then, you know.

It was a very interesting,

natural.

It was like that was just the only missing piece, the physical aspect of our relationship.

And then when it was there, I was like, oh, this makes total sense.

But then obviously there's been growing pain since and figuring out different dynamics.

And, you know, there's always, I think, a tendency that all of us human have to compare, you know, and feel jealous about time or way time is spent or what you perceive as a connection.

And, you know, am I getting my amount too?

And, you know,

so that, you know, is I think a natural thing that is still in the back at times.

At times only?

Like, it doesn't feel like.

No, like, I'm here now, and I'm very grateful that the two of them have time together.

I'm not feeling left out.

I'm actually feeling enjoying my time in my space away, which again, an older version of me, A, to be, it was until I remember when I went on my first trip alone.

It was up to New York for an overnight when I just started the holistic psychologist account.

So, four years ago was the first time I traveled anywhere alone by myself.

And it was just ever?

Ever.

I always had a partner or someone I went with.

I flew from Philadelphia to Australia to visit my girlfriend at the time in college.

I was alone on the airplane.

Wow.

But no, I was never, I never spent overnight or time away.

Again, I came from a very dependent household.

We didn't do that.

I mean, to the day my mom died, they did everything together, my mom and my dad.

Wow.

So

now I've gotten to the point where I appreciate my alone time.

I have many opportunities now to come out here and do things like this.

And now what that means, though, is I leave, right?

The two of them.

And there's no jealousy.

I feel grateful that they have their time because I've learned that the security of all of our connections to the pod, if you will, the thruple and to each other really does translate in.

You know, the better we're all feeling, the more connected and securely connected we're all feeling to each other and to the group really does then bleed into just feeling better across the board for all of us.

It's interesting because like three, usually one always feels left out, right?

Like, if it was four, it'd be a little bit more.

We're all set.

Yeah.

I'm not worried about the word right now.

I'm just saying, in general, I don't know.

That's enough.

And that would be, yeah.

Yeah.

And for some people, it is four or five.

You know, I mean, I do think that we're moving into a space of people exploring different versions, even with two.

A lot of people in the community, when we post about different living arrangements,

there's a lot of couples who choose not to, for different reasons, sleep in the same bedroom.

Yeah.

There's some couples who choose not to even live in the same home and have different versions

of relationships.

So I just want to normalize.

There's so many different ways that we can find fulfillment.

And there's some people that don't even want a romantic partnership and maybe will just continue to find fulfillment and deep friendships for the rest of their life.

So I think that we're moving just toward a more open future of types of relationships.

I feel that way.

I feel like, well, because this is what you do.

Do you feel like you're hearing more?

Maybe because you're doing it, then people are more open to talking about it?

But do you feel like you're hearing more about open relationships, more about thruples, more about these like alternative ways of having relationships?

Do you feel like that is on an uptick?

Yeah, I think Googling it now, I have many different examples.

And even what is it, the three years ago when I did.

And yeah, I think it's a byproduct of people are becoming more comfortable.

It's kind of like dominoes again in a way where more people, one person starts talking about it, kind of opens the door for another person to talk about it.

Whether or not it's a new thing, I'm not sure.

I mean, I'm imagining it probably isn't.

Right.

I mean, I even think back to, you know, our tribal days in a lot of ways.

You know, there was very much a communal way of living, whether or not there was a romantic nature to it or not.

I mean, you know, you pass the baby around or whatever caregivers available.

So I think in a lot of ways, we're kind of going back to things that aren't necessarily new.

And I think a lot of it was probably happening behind the scenes for a lot of people, maybe with a lot of shame.

And now with the visibility of internet and the ability to talk about these things and the normalizing that happens as a byproduct, I do think you're seeing much more of it.

How about kids?

Do you guys ever talk about kids?

I have been pretty set for my entire life that kids aren't

something that I'm aligned with, Lolly as well.

Jenna has very much a maternal.

She spent a lot of time as a teacher and and a kind of nanny caretaker for children for many years.

So she very much has a maternal drive or instinct.

Yeah.

Though is equally as comfortable with not being a parent and being a pet parent instead.

I can't, this is, I mean, it's wild.

I love it.

Because what it says to me is that, and I said this to you, because it's the truth, the authenticity of who you are.

Like you're not, you're not going to be somebody that you're not.

You're going to live your truth.

You're going to stay what it is regardless of what people feel, think, whatever.

And I think that's like the beauty of who you are and why you've had such great success.

And I feel like, how do I even ask you any other questions after this rumble, right?

Like, where do I go from there, Nicole?

What am I supposed to say?

Well, thank you for saying that.

And that is one of the major reasons that we decided to make it public in the relationship when we did, because we were both getting to the place, Jen and I, you know, running the circle together, hosting the podcast together where we had many events or, you know, podcast episodes where we were like, oh my gosh, they were like censoring, you know, like I have to either not tell the story or change the person in it.

And it wasn't feeling good.

And, you know, obviously his visibility continued to increase, you know, being out in public and her and I and be out in public.

It wasn't something where I wanted, like, you know, don't touch me.

I want you to hold my hand.

I want to be, you know, loving and affectionate to you.

Yeah.

So

the choice to be, you know, kind of authentically, if you will, out in this way was really a

no-brainer, non-negotiable because the other option was to have to modify or censor or pretend and I don't ever want to go back there.

So, and honestly, the community was just so receptive and so supportive and really made it kind of easy to continue to speak about it in the ways.

That's amazing.

How big is the community now, like to be a member and all that stuff?

Like, do you have group, how does it work?

Is it like a pay of membership and then so you you have access to yeah, so the circle, it's, I mean, obviously, we're all of the free access platforms now across pretty much any social media platform we've grown to is always a priority.

You know, I see it, and I actually talk to the members about this a lot.

Like, like the membership is what funds our ability to grow social media teams and like keep the podcast out and, you know, all the different things and, you know, pay for all the tech to put it out there because that is a priority.

So we're very aware of how global our community is.

And I mean, daily I read heartbreaking messages from members who just, you know, are in really repressed countries, repressed of information, don't have any sort of support, and are like that is their lifeline.

And the comments section are just such a beautiful place on the social media to hear other people's journeys and to connect.

So I'm always shouting out any of the social media accounts and they will always be a free resource.

and a top priority.

And my hope is to continue to grow them.

I mean, we actually just opened up an Arabic page.

You did?

We pay an Arabic translator because that was a big, big community that was under-resourced and very much in need of a lot of these conversations.

So my hope is into a future of being able to have all different varieties of translation accounts and just to continue to get this word out.

Though there is obviously the paid membership option, the circle

that began it all with Jenna and I, that it opens three times a year.

It's $26 a month.

And you get access to at this point.

I mean, we're nearing nearing four years old on November 1st.

So every month we put out a new kind of mini course, if you will, with PDF content and worksheets and guided meditations and little journaling prompts to kind of help you create habits.

It's very much on kind of creating consciousness and those new habits, very holistic models.

So we have so many different conversations around attachment and the nervous system.

And this

couple of months we're talking about nervous system regulation and all of these different tools.

So when you are a member, you have access to the entire library, every course that has ever come out from the beginning of it all.

And then every month we release a new course.

At this point now, we have four at least, if not more, because oftentimes we have special pop-ups.

We'll have book authors come in where their book club.

We give a book club suggestion for every course topic.

And a lot of times we have the opportunity to actually have the author in and do a pop-up, but we have at least four live events, which means four times a month for at least one hour, though sometimes the events are a bit longer.

We have, whether it's I'm presenting, we have a lot of outside presenters coming.

So I think it's important to expose not just to the way we think of these topics, but to the way other people and kind of their area of expertise are thinking about all these different topics.

And we had some incredible presenters come in already and some more to come.

So, and it's an opportunity for the community who is on that live event to engage in a live chat.

So one of the events we even just call a community check-in where Jen and I just hang out for an hour and engage directly with the community.

So we have the workshop, a check-in, a content teaching, and then every month is a Q ⁇ A.

So any of the questions that come up that members submit so they can actually have their questions answered by me live.

I spend an entire hour answering questions on that month's topic.

So it's an incredible resource and it really is an incredible opportunity, not only for the community, but for me.

It's my community.

You know, it's a time, you know, a couple times each month where even if I'm not giving the workshop, I'm in the comments.

And at this point now, we've been able to build our own custom house for it all that has all of that content that live streams the videos.

So you go on our own private website, you have your own private login.

And we also built, it very much looks like Facebook, where every member has their own profile page.

They can create it however they want.

It can be their real name.

It can be a fake name because a lot of people do want to be anonymous.

And they can put up posts, connect with other members.

We have an incredible cool feature.

It's a Google Map, essentially, but you can drop their location.

So we've had some real life in-person meetups.

I think the Portland area has a regular one where once a month people in the circle now get together because they've been able to find each other on the map and create in-person.

I think we have officially one or two relationships that have developed in it over these four years.

I know.

It's wild.

Yeah.

So the community aspect is an incredible part of it.

And like I said, I'm in that portal, as we call it every day in the activity feed, interacting with members.

And it's healing for me too, because I'm still on it.

And so many times a member will drop a post, and I'm like, oh my gosh, yeah, I really am struggling with that.

Or, you know, thanks for that reminder.

This is literally changing people's lives, which is remarkable.

And I didn't even, you know, like, Of course, I know, but I didn't think about it.

Like, it's so worldwide.

Like, I didn't even realize, of course, like the Arabic world and all like Saudi Arabia, all these places.

Like, what is the percentage of your community that's overseas in these areas?

I think we have some upwards of probably more than 180 countries represented in the membership itself.

That's not, I don't know, social media.

I'm sure we're much greater than that.

But officially, as a member, I think we're over probably nearing 200 countries represented.

So I sometimes just pull off that map and look at it and be like, get chills.

It's like insane.

I'm like, wow, I didn't even know that was a country.

Or like, where's that at?

No, it's member thinged in there.

It's really unbelievable if we really think about about it, like the breadth of what's like, did you ever think in a million years this would have happened?

I was texting with my sister on the way here tonight saying I this is she's like it's hard for me to comprehend.

I said it's hard for me to comprehend.

Never in a million years.

And there's again a very protected part of me that is still like

when I think of it like, oh, don't look at me all you people.

Yeah, because it's like it happened really quickly in a way.

Like I remember being like, but I think when I first met you, it was during COVID, actually, wasn't it?

You were like maybe at a million and a half followers.

And I'm like, oh, she's doing great.

Good for her.

Next thing you know, you're at 8 million.

I'm like, the jump.

I mean, that's like insane.

It's, I think, a testament to.

humanity.

Humanity, 100%.

You know, we're dying for these conversations, for this.

Back to this loneliness, especially with COVID.

I mean, that was really, really difficult and traumatizing, not only the financial insecurity that's come from it, the disconnection,

the health and the loss.

Oh, my God.

I think more than ever now we need, and I think it's.

the future in a lot of ways.

Yes, individual help is absolutely part of many people's journeys, though I think we're all desiring and need that community space, that place to feel like we belong.

So I think that's why the numbers are just like continuing to just.

But you know what's interesting?

Like you hit it on the, like, like even those videos like I feel like I said is it possible like so many of these videos feel like it's my life like it's like

are you in my living room?

Yeah, like wait this happened to me like how are you able to like to get at the core like that?

That's like a talent in itself like you're you're like a wealth of information to be able to and to be able to execute in a way that's so

transferable and it can relate to everybody.

Like me, the person in Saudi Arabia, this person in some random Arabic country, you had no idea.

Like, that's what's so incredible to me.

I think it really speaks to how similar, more similar we all are.

Right.

You know, like the fact that I can tell a story that, and the community is a gift, right?

Reading through the comments,

reading and seeing other people's social media presence, right?

You can pick out like the themes and the commonality.

And I think it really does come down to we are so much more similar than, you know, than not we are dissimilar it always makes me laugh too and someone's like well you know this happens only here and I'm like no it's it's not you know like culture is a thing and really when it comes down to it we're the culture of humanity and in my opinion that is more similar than dissimilar 100% I'm curious where do you go to find some type of I don't know therapy of some kind because you know every coach needs a coach right so you are that person to all these millions of people.

Who's your, who do you go to?

Who do you turn to?

I mean, I mean, the community, like I said, is a big container for me.

Seeing a reflection of me and so many other people helps me is incredibly healing for me.

Having the gift of loving partners, which sometimes means hearing the hard stuff.

I think that's, again, part of...

what some of us have not learned to be the truth of love and relationships, which is sometimes it means sharing a difficult perspective.

I'm hearing something or how someone is experiencing you that could be difficult.

And the three of us being on this journey are very much committed to having those hard conversations.

So on more than one occasion, both of them have held mirrors up to me in terms of, and having three people, you know, makes it, you know, like you can observe the dynamic that's happening.

here.

And I might not be out, but, you know, I kind of like can see.

And if I have two people that are telling me that they're experiencing me in the same way around something, even if I'm sure that's not what it is, like I've learned at least now to not just defer because they've saying it or anyone is saying anything, but to really like.

as much as I don't want to, try it on for size every now and again.

I've had the gift of, you know, connecting with incredible humans that I look up to in terms of their work.

And

so I just, I find it, I think, in all of the different places.

Right.

I mean, it's, yeah.

I, I, I just,

I marvel at how much you've accomplished.

It's amazing.

And did we, I have a bunch of questions, but did I like not now?

It's like, like I said, it's weird to even, I wanted to ask you about the parenting piece because you were saying in the book about prioritizing self-care for a parent is so important.

And so many times I'm a parent and I feel you feel selfish doing so because you feel like, oh, I should be doing that.

But how you framed it is so accurate, right?

Because you want your kids to mimic and see the importance of how you're prioritizing you, especially if you have a little girl, I think, as well.

Yes.

And I think even beyond that, again, bringing up the cliche that anyone who's flown on an airplane has heard.

Yeah.

You know, putting your oxygen mask off on first.

And I think it's something that we hear, I've heard for many, many flights.

And then it, like, one day, I was like, huh, well,

as simple as that is,

the reason why, right, is if I pass out from lack of oxygen, I can't help the person next to me.

Totally.

That also applies to the conversation in terms of self-care and the nervous system.

And if I'm not taking moments to be a person in a physical body that has needs and limits and

needs to kind of take a moment to even calm themselves or do the daily things that will help them stay regulated, then

I'm going to go right back into not only those cycles and maybe the dynamics that I don't want to continue to recreate with my children, but even more problematically, those explosive moments or like my mom.

My mom didn't want to give any of us the silent treatment.

She just could not regulate through her own overwhelming emotions to return to connection any sooner.

So again, that, you know, putting our oxygen mask on first really is.

modeling the behavior of caring so that you can be a kind, compassionate, and loving

parent.

And I do agree with you.

I think a lot of us have learned.

And while I can't even imagine how it is to be, you know, in a parenting role, it is the, in my opinion, the most important role.

And I think parents in general are, you know, again, conditioned on their past and all these beliefs, like it is, you know, selfish to do these things.

And I think more so, they're greatly under-supported for many.

different reasons.

And I think I'm hoping, and there's a lot of incredibly helpful, I think, parenting advice out there now beyond that behaviorist thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, totally.

that can help give some free resources to parents and again I think parents now more than ever need community and we have a parenting group in the circle so we have little groups that we can set up that are like you know special interest where parents can post on their particular parenting board about parenting topics specifically for that reason and you know trying to have parent presenters or parent focused presenters in is always a priority.

I actually just did Instagram live with an incredible book of a parent, tiny humans big emotions i think it is alyssa campbell um just wrote it literally it was last week her and i did so if you visit the holistic thought psychologist um the dot holistic thought psychologist at the instagram there's a instagram live and you can get more information she already gave a ton of ref resources in our conversation but even someone like her really great parenting stuff yeah

because it's it sounds obviously it starts from from that it starts at such a at that level at that point it makes sense that that should be fundamental what we work on first, right?

As a parent, if you're gonna be a parent, make sure you are giving your kids the tools and the and the role modeling to go out there and be as less or be as as little traumatized as possible, I should say, right?

Like, that's, I mean, there's so many things.

I don't want to, I don't want to like beat a dead horse after everything we just spoke about, but the book really is so good.

And I'm like, I recommend everybody picking one up at any type of relationship.

It's not even so much even romantic relationships.

It's every type of relationship.

It's about, and it really comes down to the relationship with yourself.

And all your books are, again, based on the healing, the self-healing, the working out for yourself, what you need.

I think you're just great, as you can imagine.

I tell you all the time.

But for people who don't know where to find you, please tell everybody yet again.

Absolutely.

So again, however it is that you consume content at this point, there's probably some presence of the holistic psychologist.

So type that in the search bar.

I think you'll find it.

Whether it's TikTok or what should I call it, X now, Twitter, X.

Oh, yeah.

Threads.

Threads.

YouTube.

We're going to actually, on the docket next week, I'm going to start putting out some new YouTube content, revive that.

We've been repurposing videos for a little bit on the YouTube channel, The Holistic Psychologist.

So come visit us on all of the social media.

The website is theholisticpsychologist.com.

You can get more information on the circle, on the books.

I don't know when this is going to air.

Or will you book soon?

Well,

whenever you want.

There might still be some tickets.

I have a little bit of a book tour.

I'll be here and in New York.

When are you here?

And in Tempe, Arizona,

the week after or the week of my publication.

So it comes out on the 28th.

I think I'm here on, say, like the 2nd, but don't quote me on that exact date, December 2nd.

I have an event at the Grove.

So again, how many people are going to be there?

Because if you had 1,000 people at that one event, are they at the Call of Security?

Yes.

I think LA might be close to sold out.

I know we just released some new tickets, so I don't know if when this airs, it will still be.

But then I have an event in New York as well at a slightly bigger venue, the 92nd Street Y.

Again, that's publication evening.

So visit my website, all the information if there is still tour tickets.

And obviously I'll continue to release any in-person opportunities on the website and all in the social media, which will continue to happen.

Thank you.

Miko Hi,

I want to come to your thing just to.

Not like you're going to even see me anyway.

I'll be like a little pimple in the back.

But

all right.

Thanks, Nicole.

Bye.