Episode 505: Jefferson Fisher: How to Argue Less and Communicate Better

Speaker 1 Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle, Gresham.

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Speaker 2 All right, so I just kind of was, I was gushing over you before we started because I was saying how much I love your content. And your story is so amazing.

Speaker 2 You were a trial lawyer, and now you've become like the most renowned, like the world's leading communication coach. Like, what do you even call yourself?

Speaker 1 You tell me. I don't really know at this point.
Yeah. I, and most of the time during the day, I'm just called dad.

Speaker 1 And now with the

Speaker 1 law firm and and this whole social media stuff, I don't like influencer, you know, the content creator. That doesn't really fit kind of what I do.
But yeah, just communication guy. That works.

Speaker 2 You know, it's funny. Did you ever think for those people who are living under a rock, I mean, Jefferson, you have, you have like, what, like 10 million followers now, like 12 million followers?

Speaker 2 Something insane.

Speaker 1 Something like that.

Speaker 1 It's a silly number.

Speaker 2 Well, how did it even like what, like you, you started doing these random videos in your car, right? Like on the way to work, like kind of give a little bit of a brief overview

Speaker 2 of who and how this

Speaker 2 whole kind of thing started to become such a massive,

Speaker 2 massive,

Speaker 2 I guess, empire for you so far in the communication space.

Speaker 1 About

Speaker 1 close to, I think we're at three years now. Three years ago, I started making videos.

Speaker 1 This was halfway through 21, maybe. So this is,

Speaker 1 yes, yeah, three and a half

Speaker 1 of making a video in my car with my phone on how to communicate better, how to argue like a lawyer, how to handle people getting defensive, how to have difficult conversations.

Speaker 1 What do you do when somebody interrupts you? What do you, how do you deal with narcissists and toxic personalities? And so I started giving my tips and advice.

Speaker 1 of what I've learned in the courtroom and throughout all of my life, specifically with handling and preparing clients for cross-examination and how I cross-examine people.

Speaker 1 And those videos, something I never, ever expected, Jennifer, ever, was that they started to take off.

Speaker 1 And this was never a thing that this was a goal of mine, or this was like, oh, yes, this is, if I only had this many more followers. No, it was like me showing friends like, can you believe this?

Speaker 1 Isn't this weird?

Speaker 1 And then it just slowly started to build from there. So most, almost all of my videos are just me in my car.
And why were they in my car? Well, because I didn't have an office at the time.

Speaker 1 I was, I was in between leaving a big law firm and going off and doing my own thing. And so it was right in the middle of that transition.

Speaker 2 Can you tell us why it's so important to be a good communicator?

Speaker 1 Communication touches everything that you do. You can

Speaker 1 say things by saying things and you can say things by not saying things.

Speaker 1 You can communicate a lot in silence. If I don't hear from you in five minutes, that's something.
If I don't hear from you in five years, well, that communicates something else.

Speaker 1 Even in the absence of sound, it's not the absence of communication. So why does that matter? It touches everything.

Speaker 1 Anything that anybody will think about you has to do, largely, based on what comes out of your mouth. If you say something nice, congrats, you're a nice person.

Speaker 1 You say something rude, all of a sudden you're not that nice of a person. Think of the people that you like and you don't like.
Most of the time, it has to do with what they actually said.

Speaker 1 What I like to say is you can be a kind person if you don't use kind words.

Speaker 1 So it matters because anything that you want from wherever you've been to wherever you're going, communication is the central key of that.

Speaker 2 You know, you've said something.

Speaker 2 I think I've seen this. With this in your book or somewhere else, you know, I've seen your write your book.

Speaker 2 I've seen your videos that the person you see isn't the person you're actually talking to, which is so true, right?

Speaker 2 So how, what are most people getting wrong when they're, when they're speaking, when they're having conversations? Like, what's the myths usually that you see?

Speaker 1 That

Speaker 1 what they said

Speaker 1 was what was heard.

Speaker 1 Okay. And it's as simple as that.
So many times I've said something and

Speaker 1 Later on, I'm in the conversation with my wife and she will kind of repeat what I said. And I go, I didn't say that.
That's exactly what you said. You said, and everybody can relate to that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, totally. I mean, both ways.
Yeah. Yeah.
Or you're in a conversation with a friend and you kind of regurgitate what they said. And they go, that's not what I said.
That's not how I sounded.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it is.

Speaker 1 Here,

Speaker 1 anybody who's heard this before, I wish I had this recorded. I wish I had it recorded.
So you could see what you look like. You know, that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 It's true.

Speaker 1 We always

Speaker 1 have a sense of like when you talk, you actually don't really know how your voice sounds. You just know what it sounds like in your head.

Speaker 1 You ever watch a video and been like, is that, is that how I sound? All the time. Is that how I look? Yeah.
And

Speaker 1 yeah, you and I both for sure.

Speaker 1 And it's because we are very poor at judging and being subjective of our own material. And so it's the biggest miss is assuming that what you said was exactly how it was received.

Speaker 2 You know, though, I think even speaking to you, right, tone is very important because, you know, when I speak with you, I take, take this in the nicest possible way because I mean it.

Speaker 2 Your tone is very calm. And

Speaker 2 is it that you've worked on this? Because you've learned the techniques that make like that to how to communicate more effectively to...

Speaker 2 to come across a certain way are there particular techniques such as tone such as body language to convey a different message when you're speaking, to get your point across more effectively, to kind of show a different type of personality, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 I

Speaker 1 would say that a good part of this is learned,

Speaker 1 and a good part of this is my personality. Let's say 30% of this is my own disposition, the nature versus nurture.

Speaker 1 And the other 70% is learned, both through my childhood and also what I've seen in courtrooms and some of the most intense trials is you have to find a place

Speaker 1 that is going to help slow you down.

Speaker 1 When you think of

Speaker 1 music, for example, if you're wanting to study and you're wanting to focus, what kind of music do you put on? Do you put on the scream-o? Do you put on the really high energy pop?

Speaker 1 Or do you save that for when you work out, when you want want to be energized and move fast-paced?

Speaker 1 If you're studying and you're wanting to focus, more than likely, you're wanting something that is going to be easy on the ears, that you're going to want to listen to, that's going to help you focus, to help you clarify and to narrow your concentration.

Speaker 1 And so, whenever you have a tone of

Speaker 1 really, really fast-paced, super high-pitched, and these people that kind of make you anxious, as soon as you're hearing and talking to them, just hearing my voice do that right now makes you feel a certain way.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I don't know what's happening. I don't know if I like this.
And so its tone has a lot to do with regulating another person's emotions because when I speak slower, you think slower.

Speaker 1 When I speak slower, you feel slower. Everything is, now you're matching my energy.
And now we're talking at a pace that we're going to both feel comfortable.

Speaker 1 It's like walking into your grandmother's home. Like you feel like you can just sit and you're safe in the conversation rather than always wondering what's

Speaker 1 happening. Where can I sit?

Speaker 2 How much of it's body language?

Speaker 2 Because I feel like the body language, the tone, you can get away with a lot more difficult things to say if you are saying it in an in a in a specific tone or your body language is saying something like all these more subliminal things that are about the words.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You know, how much percentage? Who knows? I know there are tests on them, but I don't really know if they're

Speaker 1 correct.

Speaker 1 I don't have any reason why they wouldn't be. Right, right.

Speaker 1 You just say like the word okay.

Speaker 1 All right. I can say okay.

Speaker 1 Or I can go,

Speaker 1 okay.

Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. Or, or, or I can go, okay.

Speaker 1 Like it is, it's always, or you put it in a text, right? It's like, okay, what, what kind of okay is that? Because we never read it in a positive okay.

Speaker 1 It's we read it as a okay, all right, whatever. Like we put our own negative connotation on it.
And what could that also mean with body language?

Speaker 1 So I could say, okay, or I can cross my arms and go, okay. As in, like, go for it.
You get, you think you're so big and bad. All right, you go for it.
I've now crossed my arms.

Speaker 1 I've put myself in a position of disbelief. I'm now doubting.
I'm now defending. I'm now protecting myself.

Speaker 1 Body language has a lot to do with it.

Speaker 1 It's this. This is the takeaway.
If your body language does not match what's coming out of your mouth, the other person is going to sense that and their signals are going to go, this is not matching.

Speaker 1 This is not jiving. This is not connecting.
I cannot trust this. That's what happens.

Speaker 2 Like, what are some simple techniques that people could easily

Speaker 2 change what they're doing to be a better communicator?

Speaker 2 Watching their tone. Is it watching their tone?

Speaker 2 Is there a way that they can, because like you said, I think what you said was so accurate, right?

Speaker 2 I think I sound a certain way, right? And then we look back and I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe I sounded like that, or I can't believe I said it that way.

Speaker 2 Like, how do we teach people who are listening how they can be a better communicator in simple ways?

Speaker 1 Well, the most practical way, if you want to know how do I communicate, ask your your best friend.

Speaker 1 Ask your best friend, say,

Speaker 1 how would you describe the way I communicate? And what would you, if you had a magic wand, wish that I would do differently? And your best friend will most likely tell you.

Speaker 1 Now, what are some of the practical tips that you can? That's a good one, though.

Speaker 2 Ask someone.

Speaker 1 Hopefully, they'll be honest with you.

Speaker 1 Yeah, ask somebody that you trust. What does my communication say about me? I'm really working on my communication and how I talk.
and you're somebody that I trust.

Speaker 1 How would you, if you could describe in three words, my communication style, like how does it come across to you in ways that I'm not understanding?

Speaker 1 As soon as you admit that you have blind spots in your life, particularly when it comes to communication, you're going to get that kind of feedback. So what you're asking for is what you'll attract.

Speaker 1 And it's the same way with how you talk. If how you talk is also what you will attract.
People that are nice and kind, they don't attract people who are ugly and rude.

Speaker 1 Well, that's not the way it works.

Speaker 2 But there's a difference, right, between nice and kind.

Speaker 1 Very much so. Very much so.

Speaker 1 And for example, you know, I just made a, I think I just had an episode or a video about this because it hit me one day of like, you know, there is a very big difference about it.

Speaker 1 Nice is surface level. Nice is politeness.
Nice is, I just want it to look nice. Oh, you, I'm complimenting on the surface of what you have.

Speaker 1 And I don't want to say something mean because that's not nice. Kindness is related to the word kin.
It's family. It's connection.
It's much deeper.

Speaker 1 Kindness says, I care about you enough to tell you something, even though it doesn't sound nice.

Speaker 1 Even if it's hard, even if I disagree. People who don't want to rock the boat, oh, I just want to be, you know what?

Speaker 1 Sure, I'll definitely pick that up. Yeah, why not? they just want to be the people pleasers.

Speaker 1 You can absolutely have your own boundaries and say no and still be kind. So that's the difference of those.

Speaker 1 I want to make sure I hit the takeaways on what are some other practical tools that people can use. Aside from asking a friend, would be as often as they can, slow down their words.

Speaker 1 I know that's easier said than done, but even if you were to take a three-second pause before you respond to somebody. I don't care who it is, take a three-second pause.

Speaker 1 You're going to naturally sound like your words were intentional.

Speaker 1 And when you do that,

Speaker 1 people

Speaker 1 will naturally lean into it. They want to hear what you're saying.
It's like, it makes them curious. No, no, what's Jennifer going to say? I don't, I'm leaning.
She's definitely thinking about it.

Speaker 1 I can tell she's acknowledging what I've said. She's analyzing it.
So now what she's saying is she's choosing her words. So

Speaker 1 I want to hear them. What's another good one? Is

Speaker 1 simply asking an additional question.

Speaker 1 Whenever, let's say you and I are best friends and you just tell me about your weekend and you said,

Speaker 1 I said, how was your weekend? You said, oh, it was great. We just went to this park.
And I said, oh, that's not my favorite park, really.

Speaker 1 Where I like is I like to go and I start talking about this place in... Cabo.
You know, I've never been, but let's say it's some like fancy, smancy place.

Speaker 1 And I start trying to inadvertently one-up you in that conversation. What are you going to want to do? You're going to like, okay, well, what's the point of me sharing with you? Okay, great.

Speaker 1 You just stepped on my story rather than you, you missed that opportunity to connect. What do you do? Ask another question.
Say, well, what was your favorite part? What did you like about it?

Speaker 1 What's make it more about the other person?

Speaker 2 So that's a good point. So the first thing you said, and I think this one, you do this very well.
You slow down the

Speaker 2 because I notice with you, you speak slow.

Speaker 2 So then even subconsciously, I do see myself coming. I'm like leaning more forward, and my voice, I'm speaking slower, if you can believe it, because you're speaking slower.

Speaker 2 So the slowing down makes you way more of an effective communicator. And then the second thing you said was ask more questions.
Now, a lot of people, this is like the curiosity part.

Speaker 2 Like for people who are curious, like me or like you, it's it's easy for people. Some people don't have that natural inclination.
And also to not sound phony or not to not to sound like they're,

Speaker 2 it's that they're phoning it in, right? Like, how do you, like, how can somebody ask more questions that actually connect people versus just

Speaker 2 sounding kind of like they're, they're like doing something because they're trying to connect? Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 It makes sense. There has to be a level

Speaker 1 of

Speaker 1 genuine interest that nobody can teach. There's not a magic phrase that either one of us can tell somebody to have an actual genuine interest in someone.
Like if you've ever been on a date

Speaker 1 and the person across and you really isn't asking that many questions, they just like to talk about themselves. It becomes very apparent.

Speaker 1 You know, I've had the question where somebody says, how can I have them, you you know, ask more questions about me? And I said, you

Speaker 1 go to the next person.

Speaker 1 You don't stay. Right.

Speaker 1 If that's the first thing out of the gate is they're not genuinely interested in me. Then you say, thank you.
Nice knowing you.

Speaker 1 And you go live your life because there has to be a genuine level of true interest. That's if that if that connection isn't authentic.

Speaker 1 Like if I, if we're dating and I want to know something about somebody,

Speaker 1 you don't have to ask me to ask questions. I'm already doing it.

Speaker 1 When you find something you're excited about and you want to learn, maybe it's a new topic, a new hobby, you're asking questions about it. Why? Because you have a genuine interest in it.

Speaker 1 My kids, my wife, my family, I am asking questions about their day because I am genuinely interested in it. So when you find that you have...

Speaker 1 that sense of authenticity in your life.

Speaker 2 There's no magic questions of being magic being that somebody's gonna naturally go wow all of a sudden they're very interested in me they have to really want it i do i agree i do think though there are people who are just naturally better conversationalists right they're able to keep the dialogue going and you ask questions that are that that keep the conversation moving at a pace where it doesn't feel like you're just like just

Speaker 2 just kind of like giving them like just shotgun question question question and i mean when

Speaker 2 when you're in business especially, it's so important for that connection,

Speaker 2 you know, to have that connection with somebody if you're in sales, right?

Speaker 2 And so for me anyway, people always ask, like, what are some techniques? Because the more you're connected to someone, obviously the better

Speaker 2 to build a relationship, right? So that's why I'm asking, that's why I was asking you the question about that, because it's a question that I'm always getting like, I don't know,

Speaker 2 let me ask Jefferson. He's coming on and he does this all the time.
So, but you said something also about saying no, right?

Speaker 2 Because I think a lot of people, pleasers, struggle with this and people who just feel uncomfortable. I feel uncomfortable when someone asks me to do something and I don't want to do it, but

Speaker 2 I feel bad saying no. So I try to like figure out how to get out of it.
What are some good strategies of how we can get, how we can

Speaker 2 say no

Speaker 2 in a better way or not feel uncomfortable or badly?

Speaker 1 So I have a method of specifically, let's say, turning down something that you're nervous about.

Speaker 1 Somebody invited you somewhere and you're like, I don't really want to go, but I'm going to feel bad and I don't want to upset this person.

Speaker 1 What we typically do is we say

Speaker 1 no thank you, or we say, oh, I'd love to. This sounds so wonderful.
Thank you so much,

Speaker 1 but

Speaker 1 I can't. Right.
And then it's usually because, because I just got so many things and I'm just so stressed.

Speaker 1 And I've just have, you know, I need to go walk my plant and water the dog and all this stuff of that you're just trying to make up to make it make it feel justified. Right.

Speaker 1 You want to, you want to make the feel, the no feel worth it, right? To you subjectively.

Speaker 1 And what I recommend is a system where it puts the no right up front rather than the I love to, but I can't get rid of the but

Speaker 1 and reverse it I can't make it

Speaker 1 period thank you so much for inviting me so you start with the no and then next goes into the gratitude I appreciate you thinking of me sounds like a wonderful time and three add in the kindness let me know how it goes I know it's going to be a wonderful event you know can't wait to hear about this in the future it's short concise and you don't feel like you're left hanging having to over-explain the no.

Speaker 1 So that would be my

Speaker 1 much better method of saying no to events and invitations. Now, how do you say no to the typical stuff? If you don't feel comfortable saying, no, thank you, that's not for me.

Speaker 1 What I like to do is say, I made a promise to myself. I made a promise to myself to stay.
Stay on task today. I made a promise to myself that I'm going to be home this weekend.

Speaker 1 Whenever you make promises to yourself, people go, oh, well, they're already committed. Like they don't want to try to encourage you to break that.

Speaker 1 And also it helps keep you on task, especially if it's something that's a priority to you. I made a promise to myself to prioritize the family this weekend.

Speaker 2 It's so funny because you get, people are, I'm going to talk for myself, but I know a lot of people are probably in the same boat where you just kind of fumble around making a million excuses or trying to think of an excuse because you feel so guilty or bad that it actually comes off worse than if you just said, I can't, right?

Speaker 2 Like eliminating the excuse from your answer is what you're saying.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. Yes.

Speaker 1 Whenever you add on the because or you add on the justification, it makes it look worse because you know what it feels like when somebody starts going, oh my gosh, I would so love to make this.

Speaker 1 I just have so much going on. I'm so busy.
And they start giving you a list. And what you want to respond is, you know, you can just say no, right? Why, why, right?

Speaker 1 Why make it awkward with all this inauthenticity? Now, now I don't really like you because now I can tell you just sugarcoating. So it's like, you know what?

Speaker 1 Why not just say no? You know, you could just say no. So it's almost counted against you when you're actually trying to feel their feelings for them.
Right.

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Speaker 2 You know what I'm wondering with you as you're talking?

Speaker 2 Because you have so many videos and so much good

Speaker 2 information of how to become much more effective as a communicator, how to have difficult conversations, which I want to ask you about.

Speaker 2 But as you were saying that, I was curious, like, what is the one area? Because now you have

Speaker 2 such a mass audience that you see people struggle with the most? Like when you get comments or when you you get people,

Speaker 2 when you post a video, what is

Speaker 2 the one thing that you've seen a major through line that people are really struggling with?

Speaker 1 They say, I love these tips. How do I implement these in real time? They say, if only I can remember.
Yeah, they say, if I, how can I remember these? How can I remember these? That's, that's their.

Speaker 1 If I can only remember these in the moment, that's probably the number one. You know, outside of that, how do you implement these kind of techniques and tips? I hear most about people who are

Speaker 1 struggling to find their voice

Speaker 1 in communication.

Speaker 1 They don't know what to say. They don't know how to structure it.
They don't know how to, they know they have a conversation coming up and it's eating them alive.

Speaker 1 That's the kind of stuff I hear.

Speaker 2 Kind of like with speaking stuff, like when they have a speaking engage, like, because you know, the fear of speaking in public is like one of the biggest, it's worse than death, right?

Speaker 2 So like, is that the type of thing you're speaking about or just in general with people not being able to stand up for themselves and kind of get their message across in a way that's effective in general or being bullish definitely yeah it's definitely the latter people who

Speaker 1 haven't spoken to their sister in two years

Speaker 1 and they want to talk to them and they don't know how

Speaker 1 Somebody who hasn't spoken to their dad, you know, for most most of their life. And now they're at a place where they want to connect.
How do they talk?

Speaker 1 They're at a place where they don't feel honored and respected where they work. How do they have that conversation?

Speaker 1 How do they stand up for themselves when they feel like they're with somebody who's always belittling them or putting them down? It's that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 That's the heart of it.

Speaker 2 So let's talk about a couple of those things, right? So let's talk about having in general, how do, what's the best way to have a difficult conversation?

Speaker 2 Because I do believe that that's something that we all struggle with in general.

Speaker 1 When it comes to difficult conversations, you have to know where you're going. If you don't have a goal for the conversation, you're just flying blind.
You'll run in circles.

Speaker 1 You'll get to the point where y'all are talking and you go, how did we get on this?

Speaker 1 We've gotten off track. Okay, back to my point.
And

Speaker 1 you realize you've just, you've wasted 30 minutes, an hour talking about something something that's, that's not at all relevant. So, having a goal is huge.

Speaker 1 I teach what I talk about in my book, is the power of frames, using framing for difficult conversation. That is something that is

Speaker 1 a lifelong skill because when you can

Speaker 1 craft conversations and structure them in a way that is going to lower anxiety, keep you both regulated, keep you on on task, and keep your sights set on the goal

Speaker 1 instead of down in the weeds, then what you find is that you end up having better relationships with these people, and better relationships will ultimately lead to a better life.

Speaker 2 So, give me a conversation. Give me what it means to have these frames.
Can you give us an example of what a conversational frame would look like?

Speaker 1 Absolutely. Let's say you and I are at work,

Speaker 1 and let's say I'm your superior, and you need to,

Speaker 1 I need to address something that is sensitive. Maybe you didn't do that great on some kind of project, or there were some issues about it.

Speaker 1 Where most people get wrong is they'll lead with, hey, Jennifer is good. Yeah, good to see you.
You good? Everybody good? Hey, so listen.

Speaker 1 And then it just starts going downhill from there. And then you're just left going, what's going on?

Speaker 1 What do you mean? Am I fired? Am I not fired? Are you mad? Who's mad? Like,

Speaker 1 it's nothing but red lights and red flags from then on out. A better method is using a frame.
So what you do is number one, you begin the conversation by telling them what you want to talk about.

Speaker 1 Two, you then go into the goal. You tell them what you want to walk away with.
in the conversation. Why are you there? And then three, you get their buy-in into the frame.

Speaker 1 Like a frame, it's like a picture frame.

Speaker 1 Paintings and pictures look different depending on the frame.

Speaker 1 It's the same, same exact thing. So you and I could talk about an element or an issue, but how I frame it can make it look entirely different.
So it's using that power. So give me an example.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I might say, hey, Jen, I need to talk to you about some comments you made.
at last Thursday's meeting.

Speaker 1 And I just want to walk away feeling that there's a new understanding that we can't talk about this topic anymore. Does that sound all right? Now you know exactly where I'm going and what it's about.

Speaker 1 Or let's say we're at home and I say, hey, I'd like to talk with you about the kids' schedules for next Friday. And I just want to walk away with feeling we're on the same page.
Is that cool?

Speaker 1 Like I'm, I'm, instead of me sending you a text saying, hey, can we talk?

Speaker 1 Or a text that says we need to talk

Speaker 1 or

Speaker 1 hey, can you visit? Or the person who knocks on the door and says, hey, do you have five minutes? Like

Speaker 1 these vague, mean-nothing type of open the door to limitless time of going, I don't know what you want to talk about. I might have five minutes.
Is it for a joke?

Speaker 1 Are you trying to change my whole world about something?

Speaker 1 Are you trying to bring up something that's absolutely irrelevant and going to be a waste of time because it's a scenario that's never going to happen? So it's

Speaker 1 using frames is an incredible tool. So especially when it comes to sensitive conversations.
For example, let's say you and I are in a bad place and you and I haven't spoken in a while.

Speaker 1 I'd say, hey, I'd like to talk with you about something that's important. I mean, that's been weighing on my, my heart.

Speaker 1 And I, I want to walk away with us knowing that we're still friends and we still love each other and we're going to be in each other's lives for a long time. Is that okay? Like you're going to

Speaker 1 now they know already. We're still going to be good.

Speaker 1 Like I already know we can talk and now we have a safe place within this frame to talk about the hard things and ultimately know what's the takeaway. We're still going to be in each other's lives.

Speaker 1 So whenever you remove the anxieties of the unknowns from the outset in the frame, the conversations always go better.

Speaker 2 That's a great point. So basically removing the, because you're right, that vagueness is what keeps people in that like loop of anxiety.
So when so what do we do when we're on text messages?

Speaker 2 Like, you know, so we don't say, can we, can we talk? What would be an alternative? You don't want to write everything in a text. So would you just say not to text and just pick up a phone?

Speaker 2 Like, because now everything is so digital, right?

Speaker 2 People are like relying so heavily on the phone and people, people aren't even having conversations, let alone, you know, good ones or bad ones, right?

Speaker 1 It's all through texting.

Speaker 2 How do we kind of, what do we do about that? Because it's, it's also not teaching people the proper skills or the practice to get better, right?

Speaker 1 Texting is incredibly efficient.

Speaker 1 It's just not efficient at connection. If you have something important to talk to somebody, pick up the phone.

Speaker 1 You, they have to hear your voice.

Speaker 1 It's that same problem we talked about if you just text it okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Versus me on the phone saying, okay.

Speaker 1 Like there is such a difference. We,

Speaker 1 us, every one of us.

Speaker 1 We have a negative filter that we apply to just about everything when it comes to anything that's not our own brains. We assume somebody else's negative intent.

Speaker 1 We assume that somebody is driving slow because they wanted to be in our way. We assume somebody's not getting there because they're lazy.
Like we

Speaker 1 assume the negatives that we also don't apply to ourselves. And so

Speaker 1 we always have good reasons. Nobody else does.
And when it comes to conversation,

Speaker 1 using text in that way for something important is a safe way to make sure sure you ruin it. You're gonna, you're, I mean, if you've ever been in an argument over text, it's a nightmare.
You text for,

Speaker 1 you text for paragraphs and paragraphs, and all you do is just you read the worst way they could possibly, you know, say it, even though they're not.

Speaker 1 And what happens is somebody will pick out just one line in the paragraph you sent. and twist it and ignore everything else you sent.

Speaker 1 Like it's, it's a, it's a horrible, messy, messy, messy, messy way of addressing something that's important. Pick up the phone.
They need to hear your voice.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Even though the, because you said the can we talk, because that's such a typical one, right?

Speaker 2 Because even if you pick up the phone, people would normally text, can we talk, to have that conversation on the phone, right?

Speaker 2 It's like, would you say, yes, it's like, and that even is like the kiss of death, right? Because that, so would you suggest even in a text saying, could we talk?

Speaker 2 Because I want to make sure and give your, to eliminate the vagueness, put it, put the, your frame in the text already to have the conversation does that make sense you yeah uh it does yeah you can certainly do that in a text the biggest i mean the

Speaker 1 what i would consider the nail in the coffin is when you say we need to talk something like that that's the that's the worst that's the worst that's the worst but when you say But if I begin with can we, and I like can we, can we

Speaker 1 talk about the kids' schedule for a moment in text? Like, and then, and then lead that to a call. Hey, can we, hey, I'd love to catch up with you in five minutes or whenever you have a window.

Speaker 1 I like using window because it's, you know, you, you just assume they are. You just have these little gaps in the day.
But there's nothing wrong with texting to lead up to the phone call. But I mean,

Speaker 1 do you need to give a whole bunch of detail? No.

Speaker 1 They're also if in text, it's like to me, I'd much rather leave a voice note or I would just rather call them and find out rather than spark that anxiety of, can we talk? And they're like, yeah, what?

Speaker 1 Because the first thing they're going to think of is,

Speaker 1 what about?

Speaker 1 Right. So if you leave it super vague like that, instead of saying, hey, can we

Speaker 1 talk about something that's important? Can you talk about something that's been on my mind? Can we talk about the schedule, the conference, the proposal, whatever it is. Whatever it is.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 I want to kind of stay on this difficult conversation because I've got so many questions about this.

Speaker 2 Because when you're on the phone, how do you, you know, when you're having a difficult conversation,

Speaker 2 how do you stay calm? If someone's triggering you and they're saying something that's, you know, that's, that they're gaslighting you, what's a good method?

Speaker 2 Like, how do you combat when you have different, if you have such a different communication style? Like, how do you deal with somebody who is

Speaker 2 triggering you in some way? And how do you stay calm speaking to them

Speaker 2 to be effective?

Speaker 2 See what I'm doing? Yes, it's making me very uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So I did that to kind of illustrate the answer of

Speaker 1 when I add in silence,

Speaker 1 what happens is

Speaker 1 two things.

Speaker 1 One is I am reminding the other person. I'm reminding the other person.

Speaker 1 I am in control. of what happens next.
You know, I'm in control of the conversation from here.

Speaker 1 And or two, what happens is you or the other person will start to fill in this silence. And where do we go? That just means we're going to reset.

Speaker 1 And when you're done talking again, I'll add that another five seconds of silence. Pauses are extremely powerful because they give you the element of time.

Speaker 1 What do you do when your body gets triggered? You have to add time. Time is the only way that you're going to be able to regulate yourself.

Speaker 1 Time is a sifter of things that are important versus not important. Time has a way of filtering that out, finding out, did that really matter or was that just, I don't even remember what that was.

Speaker 1 I remember we had an argument three weeks ago. I don't even remember what we talked about.

Speaker 1 But at the moment, it's really important. Time slows you down.
So when you're triggered, what I teach is you have to let your breath be the first word that you say.

Speaker 1 By using your breath and slowing it down, it's naturally going to regulate me physically, like physiologically going to regulate me, and at the same time, it's going to regulate you.

Speaker 2 So, pausing,

Speaker 2 how would you communicate with a narcissist? And then I can kind of go further.

Speaker 1 I love how you label that's the easy question.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's the easy question. Well, it's the most it's like an umbrella, and then we can kind of go deeper into it.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 with narcissists, um, and mind you, that term has gotten so broad. That's right.

Speaker 1 Extremely broad.

Speaker 1 That title has now been given to anybody we really don't like or even care for. You know, I've never heard of an ex-spouse who wasn't one.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 1 And it's, and whoever the narcissist is, it's them. It's not me.

Speaker 1 And so that's, that's kind of the baseline of that. Every one of us has what you'd consider as narcissistic traits or behaviors or tendencies in some given scenario.
So how do you deal with it?

Speaker 1 Somebody's behaving badly in that way. Is you understand the game that you're in.
It's a game I call praise or provoke, meaning if you are not

Speaker 1 showering them with praise, they will then turn to provoke. They'll create an argument out of nothing because they delight.
in your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise.

Speaker 1 It is a control tactic. It is

Speaker 1 the mom that always has to make it about herself and create an argument. And oh, I'm the victim and nobody likes me and nobody's here and nobody listens.

Speaker 1 And you feel like, I just cannot get out of this.

Speaker 1 You have to understand you're in a game. That game you just don't play.
You don't respond. You respond with silence.
Or if you do, you respond very neutral.

Speaker 1 You're going to say things like, good to know. No to.

Speaker 1 Thank you for saying that. Interesting.

Speaker 1 You just use one word, neutral sound bites, because you're not giving them anything to grab and to twist off on. You're not giving them anything to create.
And whenever you are very neutral, short,

Speaker 1 choppy words, it's going to be a whole lot better to realize for them. It's not that fun.
The game is not fun for them. They're not getting what they want.

Speaker 1 And that's how you, that's, that's the umbrella.

Speaker 2 That's the umbrella.

Speaker 2 It's funny you say that because the word narrative, I do believe that that word is so overused, right? But everything always gets thrown into that bucket of narcissism.

Speaker 2 I was more interested also in this about people who are emotionally immature or who are lying about you, right? When they're like, or they're someone who's betrayed you. How do you deal with that?

Speaker 1 type of communication to get your point across without sounding like you're dealing it it gets a lot of times when you're having these conversations you're talking from your emotions and everything gets kind of you're not you're not it's not landing well right do you have any suggestions well that question covers a lot i i know it's about five questions in one yeah yeah five different topics what what what comes up is what i teach is whenever you're in those situations And it could be any one of the things that you've listed, the laundry list of people saying rude stuff, belittling things, or whatever it is is to use questions in a way that go to their intent and that way you never really respond instead you're still questioning what they said so let's say you and i

Speaker 1 are

Speaker 1 in a conversation you say something that is rude to me i i take it as rude i might say Instead of me picking it up and responding and going, me, what about you?

Speaker 1 And getting all up in that and mad and defensive and making it worse, because now you've just justified them making it even more of a big deal.

Speaker 1 But if I were to take a big pause after the rude thing you just said, and I were to ask,

Speaker 1 did you mean for that to sound rude? Now you're left with a question now that goes directly to your intent of why you said it. You have a choice.
You're going to either say yes.

Speaker 1 Yes, I meant it to sound rude. Most people people are never that bold.
Some people are. Most people are not.
They don't like to show they're ugly.

Speaker 1 They don't, they don't, they don't like the bad, the messy out there. Most of the time, what they'll say is, oh, I mean,

Speaker 1 it's, you know, crawfish, you know, meaning they'll take it back, they kind of tweak it, they, they back down.

Speaker 1 They're realizing they got caught because the spotlight goes directly on them whenever you ask that kind of question. If I were to say, did you mean for that to offend me? Did you want that?

Speaker 1 Did you say that to embarrass me?

Speaker 1 i mean it just it calls them to task uh immediately so if someone's by the way i don't know how i mean i feel bad for your wife and kids like i don't even know how they can do do they ever win any argument or i guess the both of course no way yeah because you i mean like what happens do you just have zero fighting in your house at all times

Speaker 1 oh no we have plenty of arguments yeah i'm human or we're human it's it's what i'll say is i mean in my marriage our arguments are pretty quick. I mean,

Speaker 1 we kind of, we, we followed this, this, I mindset of be quick to apologize. The faster you get to the apology and finding out the miscommunication, what got lost.

Speaker 1 And as soon as you can get quicker to the intent, and instead of beating somebody down with it, like you, let's say you and I are in a conversation and I say, you know, did you mean for that to sound rude?

Speaker 1 And you go, oh, no, no, no, that's, that's not at all what I meant.

Speaker 1 What I meant was, and you kind of start to explain, that's talking to intent. And I go, oh, okay, thank you for clarifying that.
Okay. And we can continue on or resolve it.

Speaker 1 But if I were to continue to beat you over the head with it and go, you know, I just, I cannot believe you would say it that way. Like, I, I just, I don't understand how you think it's okay.

Speaker 1 And you're like, I've already apologized. I've already done what I can.
And I'm the one that's, I just can't put down the hammer. That kind of stuff can be exhausting.
It can be emotionally draining.

Speaker 1 And really, it's a sign by that person that they don't have the emotional intelligence to be able to

Speaker 1 process and work through their own emotion. Means, mean, me, it typically means there's something deeper.
I like to say, if you haven't heard the end of it, you haven't heard all of it.

Speaker 2 So that was the word I was trying to, I was looking for before, like how to deal with somebody who doesn't have the emotional intelligence to have a conversation that's, that is meant to be effective, right?

Speaker 2 That was the word. It's not even so much the narcissism or the emotional immaturity.

Speaker 2 It's the inability to have the emotional intelligence to get to the end of the conversation without feeling that it was meaningful, right?

Speaker 2 So how do you deal with someone like that? The same way asking questions or pausing?

Speaker 1 I'm putting it in context. I think,

Speaker 1 let me rephrase. When somebody doesn't have emotional intelligence, you are

Speaker 1 walking with crutches in the conversation.

Speaker 1 You're not both jogging at the same time.

Speaker 1 It's like playing against a team that all has a basketball game where they all have, the other team has casts on their leg.

Speaker 1 You can't effectively do what is intended. And some of that is simply awareness and the very cold, hard truth of, I'm not not going to be able to reach this person.

Speaker 1 But can you hear how having that knowledge is also incredibly freeing

Speaker 1 in some way?

Speaker 1 Where I know I've said my peace.

Speaker 1 And if that is not enough for them, then I wish them well because I am going to refuse to continue to make this my priority.

Speaker 1 My grandfather would tell me, look, Jefferson, I can only tell you. I can't understand it for you.
So it's this: I have said it, and I've been here.

Speaker 1 And if that's not going to be enough, and they don't have the emotional intelligence, then you have to have the awareness that you're going to be stunted in the conversation where it's going to go.

Speaker 1 And that's just the fact of it. But knowing that ahead of time is very useful information, so it doesn't waste your time and emotion and your energy.

Speaker 1 There's nothing you can do to make somebody have more emotional intelligence. What you can do is, if you need to, give them more awareness of what's happening.

Speaker 2 Okay, but let's say in a bit, that's okay when you're talking about a personal, personal relationships.

Speaker 2 But a lot of times, and people who are listening, who are entrepreneurs and business people, you don't have a choice. You have to deal with these people, right?

Speaker 2 So a lot of times people become very defensive or like it's hard to get. um to be an effective communicator or have a conversation when someone is not who lack the emotional intelligence.

Speaker 2 So what would be a tactic that you can use besides walking away? You can't walk. Sometimes you can't walk away, right?

Speaker 2 And I know you've said in the past, the goal isn't to win the conversation because that just

Speaker 2 can actually make it even, that's not the right thing either, right? Because then that will actually sometimes disrupt the relationship later on.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you don't want to set your sights on winning the argument. Certainly not.
And it's you know that that question covers a lot of scenarios i think there is

Speaker 1 there is a place to say you know you just need to put up your boundaries right but i feel like that's kind of a cop-out answer there are certainly boundaries are part of that if practically speaking if you're in a conversation or you need to let's say you're at work and you need to have something with somebody who's not emotionally

Speaker 1 intelligent or really has the emotional capacity to have some of these deeper conversations.

Speaker 1 It would tie to one, have the awareness first that this is not somebody you're going to be able to make a touchdown with. They're not going to be able to go that far in the conversation.

Speaker 1 So, two, lower your standards of where you want to go in the conversations and probably lower your standards all around when it comes to how you're going to interact with this person.

Speaker 1 Don't be surprised. Don't get yourself disappointed that they're not doing something different.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 you can't change the tiger's stripes.

Speaker 1 Three, keep the conversations really short. Short to the point.
Get in, get out.

Speaker 1 Don't feel like you have to lay all this huge breadcrumbs and do all this work in the conversation just for them to totally ignore it.

Speaker 1 I mean, you can't, you know, you can't lead whatever animal to water.

Speaker 1 There is so much

Speaker 1 to those kind of conversations of realizing I'm not going to pour my energy to it. I'm going to keep it short and sweet.
I am not going to use words like you to get them defensive.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to ask why that's going to get them defensive. I'm going to ask questions that might enlighten me into their thinking.

Speaker 1 Those are the questions that open up discussion, like how or when or what.

Speaker 1 Whenever I can open up discussion, maybe that's going to give me a little bit more insight into the areas

Speaker 1 where they're static between us rather than a clear line of communication.

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Speaker 2 What's the best way to communicate with confidence?

Speaker 1 It's a language that is typically learned, and that's the language of your assertive voice, using a voice that's different than normal conversation like if you and I are talking and we're talking about the weekend and we're friendly and we're friends that's different but if I need to have an important conversation and maybe it's at work typically at work then I'm going to use words that sound more confident and those are words that are assertive words like not having over apologies and saying I'm sorry to everything using adverbs the words that end in ly the using language that doesn't, you know, end with, does that make sense on every single sentence?

Speaker 1 Any of that kind of stuff is,

Speaker 1 and we can talk about each one of those, but that's, that's what I mean by assertive voice. You, you are eliminating hesitancy in conversation.

Speaker 1 And instead, you are building in words that produce positive momentum in the conversation where people will go, that person knows what they want, where they're going, and what they're talking about.

Speaker 2 So give me an example.

Speaker 1 If you've ever responded to an email that says, says, hey, I'm so sorry, I'm just not getting back to this. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.
I just now see this. So sorry for the delay.

Speaker 1 You're apologizing for prioritizing your own life. You're apologizing for having priorities.
Like you have other emails to get to. You have life.
You have kids.

Speaker 1 Instead of using apologies, use words of gratitude. Thank you for your patience.
I appreciate the time to reply. Thank you for giving me time to think about this.

Speaker 1 And when you say thank you for your patience, the other person will read it and go, I am so patient. Oh my gosh,

Speaker 1 I am so patient. Yes, I am so kind.

Speaker 1 What you're doing is you're taking away the hesitancy, which makes you feel less. Because when they read the, I'm so sorry, what they think is, yeah, you should be sorry.
That's right.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And so you take that away and use words of gratitude.
And now you're leaning into the communication. Same thing for adverbs.
These are, to me, the biggest culprit of confident communication.

Speaker 1 It's the words like essentially, basically, literally, really,

Speaker 1 very much,

Speaker 1 so just all of these words that don't really mean anything.

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 1 let's say you need to,

Speaker 1 you want to propose an idea and you might say, okay, so basically what I'm like, so, so just so you know, what I'm, what I'm maybe thinking of, and it's, it's really, really up to you guys, but, but I literally just thought the other day, and you're going, you haven't said anything yet because you've just thrown in a bunch of of of fluff so when you remove those words especially in emails or texts you just find you don't need them like even the word just can be very much overused just is very hesitant hey i just wanted to just want to say hi instead of uh hey i wanted to say hi like it that kind of i'm leaning in just by using the word just i may it sound more hesitant does that make sense is one that i like to talk about because when people use does that make sense i mean i know why they use it.

Speaker 1 It's to want to make sure that what they said makes logical, practical sense.

Speaker 1 But the other person hears, it's either you don't know if they're smart enough, so you need to make sure that they, they can get it, or two, that you're not really sure what you're talking about.

Speaker 1 So it's, does that make sense? Like, it's, it's that kind of

Speaker 1 way of using it that it does, it, it becomes a crutch is what it is because it's, it's very, it's, that's all it is. It's a crutch like anything else of using ums.

Speaker 1 Um, like I have a friend who would always say, that's right, after everything.

Speaker 1 It's just these little bitty fillers that don't mean anything and they're not hurtful in any way, but just in regular professional context, they may not sound all that confident.

Speaker 1 Another little key thing for anybody is if you want to sound confident pretty

Speaker 1 as quickly as possible, use the word confident. Use the word confident.
If you were interviewing me, Jennifer, and I you asked a card question i went um

Speaker 1 yeah i mean i think i think so i mean why not i i don't see any reason not to or you asked me the same question and instead i said i'm confident i can do that like which one do you think is going to be the the person that you go you're going to write down this person is so confident that is confident that's a good point you also i noticed this is actually not i i noticed this a lot the people who are the most successful, the top leaders, they're using less words.

Speaker 2 They're not using these like verbose, they're not studying verbose texts, verbose emails. It's very much what they need to say and they move on.
They keep it moving. There's no like long

Speaker 2 winded nonsense.

Speaker 2 It could be because they don't have a lot of time, but I also believe it's because they are a lot of times confident. They're not trying to impress.

Speaker 2 They're just trying to get what they need to say out and then they keep it moving.

Speaker 1 That's 1,000%.

Speaker 1 People who are insecure have the need to say everything.

Speaker 1 People who are confident have the need to say nothing. They don't have to say it to know that they know it.
That's 100%.

Speaker 1 Yeah, what I like to say is when it comes to confidence in communication, instead of being a waterfall, be a well.

Speaker 1 Meaning instead of having to overflow, over share, over-explain, or they can't even contain it all.

Speaker 1 It's you become a well, meaning

Speaker 1 if they have a question and you say, Yeah, I know this, like then you're you're confident in the depth of your knowledge, meaning they can come get exactly what they need and you're not overflowing it in some way.

Speaker 1 It's a great way to kind of think how much information you share with people around you because there's a tendency to

Speaker 2 uh say way too much and that's that's very common also though it's because i've i've noticed with myself with you i've said does it make sense twice because

Speaker 2 you also are people kind of respond to how the other person is right and so for me when someone's very

Speaker 2 slow to communicate that it's like that empty space or that that like the quietness i you feel like you need to like fill it with something you know it's like kind of psychological right

Speaker 2 and we have we have to kind of get over that because you're right i think when

Speaker 2 that that is like that that symbolizes more power in the conversation right because i've noticed because you're so

Speaker 2 like you're so not stoic is the wrong word but like i said you're you think before you answer so there's like a pause so that makes the other person maybe a little uncomfortable so i'm like does that make sense does it jefferson

Speaker 1 That's funny. You haven't noticed.

Speaker 1 Well, it was a good, no, that was a good, it's a good case study.

Speaker 1 What I tell people is

Speaker 1 instead of, does that make sense? It's the, what are your thoughts? What do you think? Because that's really what you're, that's really why you're asking. Otherwise, it's, it's, it's super common.

Speaker 1 I know, I know so many people who use it. There's nothing wrong with it.
It just

Speaker 1 whatsoever. It just happens that when you're in certain, if you want to sound, let's say, more assertive, that's one way to do it.
No,

Speaker 2 I think it's great. So you have kids.
So do I. I was wondering for kids, right?

Speaker 2 What would be one habit for them that you can instill on for kids to be a better communicator for when they become an adult?

Speaker 2 Like what would be one thing that we can teach our kids so they come across like better communicators where they can learn this for when they're older and also to help them now.

Speaker 1 So, I have a seven-year-old and a five-year-old.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 what I will often do, if they are in some kind of spat, you know, about who's touching me or who's, you know, has this toy that my son now has that my daughter's demanding, even though she's acted like this toy never existed for the last three years and she's never picked it up, is I will often take the moment to time out

Speaker 1 and I will ask them what the other person is thinking. So I will, so let's say it's the brother.
I'll say, no, what do you, what do you think your sister thinks when you do that or you say that?

Speaker 1 And get in to think about it. I'll do the same thing for her.
And I'll say, well, no, what do you, when you, when you did that, what do you think your brother thinks?

Speaker 1 And so what I'm doing is getting them outside of themselves to think of

Speaker 1 what things appear and sound like from the other person's point of view.

Speaker 1 Part of a very good communicator is understanding not only your point and your argument, but all the more understanding the other person's. And so

Speaker 1 all I'm doing is just giving them awareness to be able to read people and read the room based on projecting out, if you say this, what do you think?

Speaker 1 how that person is going to respond. So

Speaker 1 I like to do a lot of timeouts and asking

Speaker 1 what if you, when you say that or when you did that, how do you think she's going to feel? Or how do you think he's going to feel?

Speaker 1 And not in some way where they can't, you know, they're supposed to always be worried about somebody else's emotion. That's not it.

Speaker 1 It's we it's teaching the not getting so tied up in thinking about me, me, me, what I want, what I want.

Speaker 1 And what's almost always happened is I might say to him, you know, what do you, now, what do you think sister feels when you do that? And he said, well, she probably feels upset.

Speaker 1 And I said, well, you want her upset? No. Well, how do you, what could you say? Do you think that would make her less upset?

Speaker 1 And almost every time he comes up with something better than I could think of, and

Speaker 1 I mean, and they immediately reconcile. And so it's, it's trying to get them out of the, that kind of caveman mentality of that's mine.
This is yours, territorial kind of stuff that kids have.

Speaker 2 i like that i'm gonna try that i now that you're doing all this i am i i'm imagining you're not practicing law anymore right

Speaker 1 i still practice law i still have cases still have clients you do i just

Speaker 1 yes and i just delegate a lot of stuff so i have other attorneys that are are doing it because just my my time how do you spend most of your time now

Speaker 2 Besides being in the car and doing videos?

Speaker 1 Like how much time is that?

Speaker 2 How much time do you actually do that? Like how do you kind of adjust your days?

Speaker 1 It depends how much speaking I have that month.

Speaker 1 So I travel and speak quite a bit. And how much?

Speaker 1 I try to limit it to about two to three times a month,

Speaker 1 bring the whole family with me, and it needs to line up with kids' schedules and all that stuff. So we have a pretty strong filter of what I say yes to and what I say no to.

Speaker 1 And then,

Speaker 1 you know, a lot lot of my day is

Speaker 1 thinking of

Speaker 1 how i can develop more either products or things that i can you know add more value to help more people the videos don't take that long i mean it's the videos are either 30 seconds to a minute in the car and i i they're not written down anywhere i think of them in my head and shoot them typically in one to two takes and then it's gone you know trying to figure out what's going to be the best It's, you know, right now I make decisions on what's best for the family, not exactly what's best for business.

Speaker 1 And that helps keeps me really grounded.

Speaker 2 So are you writing a new book? I mean, you have your, the book that you have is pretty good. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 There's a lot of information in there that can people can get to have better, have better conversations, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So you're spending some time, you're basically, you do have a law firm still. So that's basically my question.

Speaker 1 That's correct. Yes, I do.

Speaker 2 Is there something besides, I have one other question that I kind of like went around and I forgot to kind of ask this, and then I'll ask you something else, but the defensive one, like, how do we not become defensive?

Speaker 2 Like, there's been so many times I know that, like, I know that a fight's going to happen because of something that I, you know, I said something wrong, or this person said something, and they've said something to me that I,

Speaker 2 you know, or whatever. And then you become defensive.
Like, how do you eliminate that feeling or how do you not respond defensively when that is your like gut?

Speaker 2 And I know you're going to probably say, pause, but in the moment, if we're not in that moment when besides pausing, how else can we, how else can we deal with that type of thing? Make sense?

Speaker 2 Just kidding.

Speaker 1 There's some phrases that I would encourage people to use.

Speaker 1 If you don't want to be defensive in that moment, and really get the other person defensive, then you have to use phrases that aren't going to put up their walls.

Speaker 1 These are phrases like my favorite one, believe it or not, is I agree.

Speaker 1 That does not mean I agree with what they said. I

Speaker 1 go bigger picture. I will say, well, I agree that's something to consider.
I agree that's a point of view. I agree that's a point.
I agree that's an issue. I agree that's something to talk about.

Speaker 1 Like these really high-end, I'm not having to say I agree with your position.

Speaker 1 I can say, well, I agree. That's that's definitely a take.

Speaker 1 That's, I agree that whatever. And see, they just hear the phrase, I agree, and go, oh, okay.
Whew, they could like put down all their swords.

Speaker 1 They, they now, they, they, they were so ready to go into battle. They just said, I agree.

Speaker 1 that what they said matters. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 it kind of pulls down that defensiveness. Another one that I like is telling them what's helpful.
Well, that's helpful to know. Thank you for telling me.
That's helpful to know.

Speaker 1 Whenever you say that, they feel like they have a mutual buy-in into their own understanding. Like

Speaker 1 they've done their job teaching. They've connected that this matters to them.

Speaker 1 Another that I like, it's very much related to it, is what I've learned. So I might say,

Speaker 1 what I'm hearing or what I've learned is this is really important to you. And they're going to go, yeah, it is really important to me.

Speaker 1 And they're going to feel like you're right there with them instead of you going, why do you believe that? Oh, okay. Well, why, why? And getting them all defensive.

Speaker 1 That's a really using really, really intelligent questions that are going to pull down that defensiveness.

Speaker 2 I love that. And then we've kind of circled around this idea of if it's not, if you're, if the intention shouldn't be about winning an argument, what should the intention be?

Speaker 2 Like when you're going into a difficult conversation and you don't want to quote unquote win, then what what is the outcome that you should be looking for like in a negotiation or something like that

Speaker 1 connection rather than trying to win the argument and i i compare that to this tug of war that you you have with somebody

Speaker 1 um

Speaker 1 and that's a simplistic

Speaker 1 illustration but

Speaker 1 what i like to teach is that when you try to win the argument you will lose the relationship.

Speaker 1 Who wants to be around the person who always has to have the last word? Who always has to be right? Do you want to be around the person who always has to be right? No. Isn't that crazy?

Speaker 1 This person says that they're right, and I don't want to be around them. Because it's,

Speaker 1 what does that mean? That means that there's something more. than just being right.

Speaker 1 There's depth, there's emotional depth to the conversation rather than just who's right or wrong. Or the person who who always has to throw in their two cents and always has to have the last word.

Speaker 1 You don't win anything. You win somebody's contempt.
You win their frustration. You win their eye rolls.
You win awkward silence when you see each other again.

Speaker 1 It's having to have the last word and the final say is something that's going to lose the relationship. And in exchange, you lose their respect and ultimately the connection.

Speaker 2 Have I forgotten to ask something that's super important that you talk about?

Speaker 1 No,

Speaker 1 I honestly think you've covered just about everything, Jennifer. Yeah, I don't know if I have anything else.
Are you sure?

Speaker 2 I feel like I'm forgetting some stuff that

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 had here because I'm not worried.

Speaker 1 That'll be

Speaker 1 our part two. No, I think that

Speaker 2 this virtual thing. I asked, because like I said at the beginning, I don't know if I didn't say it on this thing, but like, and you could, you're, you're the expert in communication.

Speaker 2 How much actually gets lost when you do stuff like this? Because now the world has come to this technology where people are doing virtuals and Zooms and digital.

Speaker 2 Like you can't, you miss the essence of having people face to face to really get that connection. That's how you build connection, in my opinion.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I, would I say how much is lost? I mean, 36%.

Speaker 1 I mean, like all of the guests guests that I have on my podcast are virtual. Really? You know, like, yeah.
And the podcast is. I guess you're right.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's, yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And so it's, um, would I like to have people in person? Yeah.
Why? Because that would make me feel better. It doesn't really change the quality so much of the conversation.
And,

Speaker 1 you know, does in-person do better maybe for content?

Speaker 1 Really, you know, for

Speaker 1 video? Maybe.

Speaker 1 But at the end of the day, I've seen lots of podcasts that do great virtually, and I see lots of podcasts that do good in person. How much do you lose with the Zoom stuff?

Speaker 1 It's not the same.

Speaker 1 No argument there. It's not the same.
There's still plenty of place and space for meaningful dialogue. Doesn't bother me.

Speaker 2 Well, I thank you so much for being a guest on this podcast, Jefferson.

Speaker 1 Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 Oh my gosh, you're the best. Like I said, I was following you when you had like six followers.

Speaker 2 I think you had like literally like a thousand, something like something so crazy.

Speaker 2 And I would send you, like I said, I would send your videos to like a lot of my friends and they're like, wow, he's so good. And the next time I check on you, you're like a million.

Speaker 1 And then you're like four million.

Speaker 2 I'm like, what's going on with this guy?

Speaker 1 That's funny. Well, thank you very much.

Speaker 2 No, but you know what it is? I think this says a lot about authenticity, right? Because,

Speaker 2 you know, you are, you seem like a really like nice person. That's like, this is who you are.
You're very authentic. You're not performative.

Speaker 2 You're not doing something because you're trying to be a content creator or an influencer.

Speaker 2 It's just like you're sharing valuable information that people can actually use to improve some part of their life, which by the way, like you said, communication improves every area of your life.

Speaker 2 And you're providing that in such a real way that it's only natural that people are going to gravitate to that. So I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 Thank you very much. I appreciate appreciate it.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Well, thanks, thanks for your time and having me on. And I'm wishing y'all all the best.

Speaker 2 No, thank you. And I'm not allowing you off this podcast until you promise me that when you are in California, that you will do it in person.

Speaker 2 Because I just think it, like, even if you think the con whatever, I think it's a much better conversational exchange when you're face-to-face.

Speaker 1 I think we can make it work.

Speaker 2 Yay. All right, Jefferson.

Speaker 2 I appreciate your time. I appreciate you.
Uh, and uh, thanks for being on the podcast.

Speaker 1 Absolutely, thank you. Thank you, take care.
Bye, bye.