Episode 295: Mark Sisson: The Primal Blueprint for Fitness, Metabolic Flexibility, and Entrepreneurship

Hi, guys, it's Tony Robbins.

You're listening to Habits and Hustle, Gresham.

Mark

Sisson is on the podcast, and I've been a huge fan.

I just was basically like fangirling over him before we started rolling.

Mark, just quickly, is like the OG in the health and wellness space, in my opinion, and as an entrepreneur.

He had this thing called the Daily Apple.

You still have it, by the way.

Yeah, it's not like it's gone, but it was started in 2006, which makes it almost like it's 17 years old.

Yeah, 17.

And still one of the best newsletters that I've ever

read.

You're welcome.

And Primal Kitchen, which is in my kitchen right now.

So I'm just going right for the jugular.

You look so good.

How old are you?

I just turned 70.

You just turned 70.

Okay.

You look like you're like 40.

Your body is insane.

What are you doing?

I want to know everything.

I want that.

I want to know what your routine is, what your regimen is.

You know, it's some genetics.

Okay.

You know, you cannot discount that.

I've been athletic my whole life.

So I started a routine, a habit of working out daily in my early teens.

It started with running, but I also started lifting weights in my teens.

I've always been competitive.

So the level of my athletics was such that I would be forced to dig deep and find the pain cave and all of the things they talk about right now.

I chose to be an endurance athlete.

So I chose to, first of all, I was a marathon runner in the 70s, quite a good one.

And from there, I got injured after seven years years of overtraining and beating myself up doing that.

So I switched to triathlon.

And so my first triathlon ever was Iron Man in Hawaii in 1981.

I wound up finishing fourth in the 82, Hawaii Iron Man.

So I've always somehow been associated with a type of workout that is basically managing discomfort.

You know, some people will play soccer and basketball, or I now play, you know, frisbee, ultimate frisbee.

But in those days, I was just managing discomfort every day.

How deep a hole can I dig for myself?

Right.

You know, and hopefully recover from it and improve as a result of it.

So it was all about performance for me for the longest time.

What's interesting is that, like, people who've done that for as many years, like you said, you started in the 70s, and like your body doesn't seem like, I don't know, I don't know you in a very deep level.

I just met you, but you don't seem like your body's broken down.

Like you look like you're very fit, like you're still very active.

You're doing ultimate frisbee.

How did you even maintain that ability given the fact that like, especially people who are runners like you, their bodies break down so quick after a while oh i i'm now on a campaign to eradicate running really

we'll talk about that yeah i want to yeah you know as i think walking is the best thing a human being can do for oneself no i mean i i've lifted weights so i've maintained muscle mass i've maintained range of motion i've i stretch a little bit i don't do yoga for better or worse you know we'll talk about diet i mean i think 80 of my physical you know results uh my body composition as a result of my food choices which is what i've written about for 30 years Right.

You know, I started with just real food, but then sort of morphed into paleo and then primal blueprint and then keto and then intermittent fasting.

So I've been at the forefront of a lot of these different modalities or these different ways of eating that manifest themselves in improvements in metabolic flexibility and metabolic efficiency.

You talk about that a lot.

We're going to talk all about the metabolic flexibility.

I know that you're like a big advocate for that, obviously, for good reasons.

Talk about that.

By the way, did you start this, the whole idea behind that?

Because I always, whenever I like click on something or back when, like, I would always hear you talking about metabolic flexibility.

And other people would say, when I was speaking to Mark, we were talking about,

right?

I mean, Rob Wolf and I popularized the term many years ago.

And it just became, it became this way to describe a state of the body where you could access any substrate for energy that was available at the time or necessary at the time.

So whereas most people spend their lives just being good at burning carbohydrates, right?

They eat a lot of carbs, they turn it into glucose or glycogen, they work out, they burn that, they never burn fat because they never get to the point where the body says, Let's burn fat.

There's always plenty of calories available in the form of glucose or glycogen.

So, metabolic flexibility describes the ability to extract energy from the fat stored on your body, the fat on your plate of food, the glucose in your bloodstream, the glycogen in your muscles, the carbohydrates that are on your plate of food, the ketones that your liver makes in the absence of glucose.

And once you develop the state of flexibility, a whole world of like empowerment opens up where you're not not tethered to appetite and cravings and hunger all the time.

Your day isn't dictated by when mealtimes are.

You have all the energy you want all the time for the most part.

And

one of the side effects of that is because you're continually burning off your own stored body fat, you tend to have low body fat, which a lot of people think is a good thing.

Yeah, that's good.

And I'm one of them, yeah.

We're both one of them.

Yeah, so back to

how did I get to where I am today?

It's a combination of some initially starting with aerobic athletics, cardio, they called it in those days.

And then they still call it cardio.

And transitioned over to weightlifting and speed and strength, which I think was probably the right way to do it.

And then recently have combined the two of them.

So I was

telling your husband, I ride a fat bike on the beach, a fat tire bike on the sand in Miami.

Do that at least once a week, sometimes twice a week.

It's a brutal workout, but it's a lot of fun.

Wow.

Is that just all the resistance from the bottom?

It's all the the resistance from the deep sand.

And but you know, the good news is you don't even need a helmet because there's no cars.

The worst that's going to happen is you fall over because you're going so slow.

You can't even keep the bike upright in the sand.

So you fall into soft sand.

I do that.

I do stand-up paddling.

Well, how long do you go on the bike for when you do that?

Minimum of an hour.

And actually, I have one in L.A.

and I took it down yesterday.

I had an hour and a half ride.

down to Mescal and then down to the beach and it was low tide and I ride the low tide line down to Venice Pier and back and then up to Mexico to finish.

It was an hour and a half.

Wow.

It's a great, it's amazing.

I want to get, I want to get one of those bikes and do that.

Yeah,

I'm surprised more people don't.

It's really one of the coolest workouts I can imagine.

The bikes are very stable and sturdy.

Yeah.

And so, between that and stand-up paddling, which is my other sort of, I would say, cardio, except my heart rate never gets above 130 when I'm doing stand-up paddling.

I can get it to 170 still on the fat bike.

Do you do e-foiling still?

I don't.

I sold my foil.

So it's one of those things where I'm at a stage of my life where I'm managing risk better.

Yeah.

And so I stopped snowboarding two years ago.

I just don't have the need for speed anymore.

And I was an avid snowboarder for a long time.

One of the best weeks I ever had in my life.

I took my 17-year-old son at the time.

We went up and did helicopter snowboarding for a week in northern

skiing, but hella snowboarding.

Hella snowboarding.

In fact, we went with skiers.

Wow.

You know Tony Horton?

Yes, he lives around here.

So Tony's a very good friend.

So he and I.

I'm friends with him too.

Yeah, we went up to Michael Wigley's place.

Anyway, so that's like my idea of adventure is snowboarding in deep powder.

Now that I'm 70 and I'm just relegated to doing going down groomed slopes in aspen or, you know, mammoth, I'm like, I don't need the speed.

And if all I'm doing is trying to stay safe and scrub off speed, let me find something else to do.

So

I did that with, so no more snowboarding for me.

And then with the foil, it's great and it's, it's an amazing feeling.

It's like snowboarding times five in terms of the feeling of floating and flying.

But, you know, at some point, when you've done it enough times, you're just, you know, doing figure eights around a loop, around a lake or around the ocean.

It kind of loses its adventures

nature for me.

And I had an accident on it that sort of made me think, yeah, you know, maybe it's not appropriate for me to keep doing this.

So I sold my foil recently.

So when was the accident and what kind of accident was it?

I just had a long, for me, a long session, like 45 minutes.

And I literally hadn't touched the water once in 45 minutes.

I was just going back and forth.

I thought, typical of skiers, too.

One more run.

Yeah.

I'll make one more run.

And on that last run, I did a tight turn and I got too high out of the water.

And when you're out of the water, you lose the lift and the flight.

And so it started to fall.

And with a foil like that, you're riding a guillotine.

It's a very sharp blade, the wing.

So I kicked it aside while I kicked it so hard it flipped up and cut me in the back.

So

I just said, ah, you know,

that's the universe saying

this was fun while it lasted.

And, you know, what's next?

Exactly.

Well, I have a couple of them in my garage because my husband's a big foiler, too.

Did you ever do, by the way, any of those 100-mile runs or just marathons?

Just marathons.

So you didn't do those crazy 100-mile runs?

I mean, I probably would have and could have, but by the time I retired from running with injuries, I was unable to do the kind of of training that was necessary to do that.

So I would have been good at it because the longer the distance was, the more efficient I was.

I was not a very strong, I was quite strong as a 10K runner, but marathon was a much better distance for me because I could maintain such a high level of my aerobic capacity

for a long period of time.

So

I think I would have been good at ultras.

And now with the new

equipment that they have, I have a lot of friends, a lot of friends who are wearing my shoes,

training in my shoes for ultras, and then wearing

their special trail shoes, but doing nine-hour rucking in the mountains over steep terrain, wearing the paloovas, wearing the toe shoes.

So, why would they be wearing them with the training?

They're basically like, they look like five-finger shoes, by the way.

And you weren't behind five-finger shoes back when.

I thought you were.

No, no.

So, because that's what I thought.

That was your whole movement, primal.

No, I mean, I was a big fan for the longest time, but but

in my estimation, they sort of left a lot on the table, a lot of design potential and a lot of other things that should have evolved with

that technology.

They never got around to.

So I said to myself, well, I'll do this myself.

So

when did they disappear?

They didn't disappear.

They're still around?

Of course, yeah.

Oh, okay.

So, because why would people train in these shoes?

They're called Paloo Vaccine, and they're very comfortable.

And I will tell you something.

They actually look cute on, even though they may look a little strange in the box or in a picture, because Mark's wearing a really nice pair.

They're like, they're like fake leather, right?

So, no, it's real Napa leather.

This is actually

actual leather, yeah.

Oh, they're because they're actually cute.

I think they're really cute, yeah, and they are way better for your feet.

It's called foot health, which we're going to get all into, don't worry.

Okay, but you're saying something that like people are training in them, but then why wouldn't they actually run in them?

Well, at some point, we're going to encourage running in these, but it's such a strong, a long transition.

When you go from wearing restrictive footwear that's thick and cushiony and encapsulates and encases the feet, and you don't work the small muscles of your feet.

Right, atrophies.

The muscles of your feet actually atrophy.

And so what happens is you put all that pressure and all of the burden on the ankles and the knees and the hips.

And that's why people get injured in that regard.

That's true.

Because I have a lot of injuries from that.

I have tons of ankle issues.

And my feet became flat because I wear orthotics in my shoes.

And when you wear orthotics, you're telling your feet, ah, you don't even need to work your arches out.

We'll support your arches for you.

We don't, I don't know.

We'll get into this, but it's so crazy.

So my ultra runner friends and some of my marathoner friends are now spending the day in paloovas doing their errands, walking around, passively training the small muscles of their feet all day long.

They might even, they'll wear them to the gym and they'll do their leg work in them.

They'll do sprints in them.

Anything that you would do barefoot, like if you're going to do barefoot sprints, you do this.

But at some point, you know, if you haven't trained well enough to get your those small muscles of your feet acclimated and adapted,

you can encounter, you can get some injuries.

Now, there are people, myself included, I could run forever.

I think my paluvas, the ones that we make for training, are the best running shoes ever made.

I've been doing this for 15 years.

We just don't encourage it with new

people.

So where did the whole idea come from that like you have to wear, like for me, like all my feet are flat and narrow.

So then they say wear these orthotics and do all these things.

And then like that, and then over time, those are the things that are probably causing all these crazy injuries.

It's bizarre, but that's medicine.

That's so podiatric medicine, podiatry.

Yeah.

Like I would tell you, like I was in college, I was one of the best, I was the best runner with Captain Cross Country team and on the track team at Williams College.

I sat my last year out with it with Condor Malaysia with a knee injury because I was wearing Nikes thick cushioned trainers trying to get 40 extra miles a week in because I wasn't feeling the pounding.

Oh, yeah.

And because of those 40 extra miles a week, all of the stuff that where it would have been my feet that say, hey, hey, you know, slow down, stop.

It's enough running for the week.

When you bypass all that information, you send it up the chain to the knees or the hips or whatever.

And so in my case, I got Conor Malacia.

Well,

one of the cures, I was one of the first miracle cures with orthotics.

In 1974, 75, I went back to running and racing because I wore these hard acrylic orthotics.

Well, they didn't fix the problem.

They alleviated the pain.

Yeah.

So I still wound up with the problems over time.

Yeah.

But, you know, so for a lot of people, if you're not fixing, and this is medicine, right?

You don't fix the problem.

You alleviate the symptom.

You bandate it.

That's modern medicine.

So

if you have a, you know, if you're a podiatrist and you believe in orthotics, one of your, you're going to want that approval from your patient.

Oh, my God, my pain went away because of the orthotics.

Thank you, Doc.

Well, went away for now, but it's just moving around to other parts of the body.

And I'm not going to say that some people don't need orthotics, but there's your feet are born perfect.

Some people, oh, I was born with flat feet.

Jennifer, I don't know what I'm going to do.

I've got flat feet.

How am I?

I was born that way.

You are born with perfect feet.

You just, the fact that you don't have a pronounced arch doesn't mean that all of the musculature in your foot, including the plantar fascia, doesn't work.

It's just you haven't used it.

You've been encasing it your whole life.

It's your parents' fault.

They put you in these cute little, cute little shoes.

They look so cute.

You know, the little Mary Jane's and all that.

They all look really cute.

And then you get to high school and you start wearing heels and you start looking and go, oh, that looks really cute.

And then the next thing you know, you've got foot problems.

problems no 100 and it's over it's overuse over time okay we'll get back to that afterwards I want to get back to why you look so good okay so the running and then you went the stair you did the strength training but now what else are you doing to maintain this so you you told me what you do in terms of exercise yeah so I lift twice a week I mean I do I want the non-negotiables like what do you do every morning I want to know your routine Usually I wait till the end for this part, but I saw you.

I'm like, I got it out.

Like this is the information people want to know, right?

Because look at you.

I mean, he literally is like, you would think he was 35.

Okay, go on.

Thank you.

I gush.

Yeah, it's true.

I appreciate that because I've spent a lot of time in the sun.

And I think my, you know, the face does not lie about that.

Tell me about it.

Anyway, non-negotiables.

I mean, like, I don't eat breakfast.

So you intermittent fast.

I don't even call it intermittent fasting because I think it's, it's more like intermittent eating, but it's a restrictive eating window, right?

So it, it, what it means is I wake up and I do an assessment.

Like, I have all this energy and I don't feel hungry.

Why would I want to eat?

You know, so I have a cup of coffee when I wake up.

I do put milk in the coffee or heavy cream.

Heavy cream.

Okay, so I know you're also in the ketogenic stuff.

But wait, can I ask you a question?

Before we even go into this, I think this is an important thing to ask.

Are you someone who lives to eat or eats to live?

Because if someone who lives to eat, like I love food, it's really hard for me to intermittent fast and to do all these things, right?

Because I love food so much, right?

People who don't, there are other people who don't give a shit.

Like they can eat, they forget to eat.

I'm not one of those people.

So it's easier for them.

Are you one of those people?

Yeah, no, I'm someone who I don't live to eat.

I eat to live.

Right.

But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy every single bite of food I put in my mouth.

So I don't eat stuff

just because it's supposed to be good for me, for instance.

If it doesn't taste good, like you could make me the best kale salad you ever made with a lemon, you know, vinegar, whatever dressing.

I'm like,

thanks, but no thanks, not having it.

You know, I eat what I want to eat and typically when I want to eat it, and then I think one of the great skills is to realize when it's time to finish.

I can push the plate away and say, you know what?

I don't need to finish that 12-ounce steak.

I don't need to, you know, finish all of the salad that was put in front of me, even though it might be, you know, considered ultra-healthy.

Right.

So you limit the amount of intake, food intake.

I don't do it out of some sense of

anorexia, you know,

whatever.

Orthorexia.

Yeah.

Orthorexia.

Yeah.

I just do it because

I'm so in tune with when I'm no longer hungry for the next bite.

And it's, you know, so many people,

you're a great example of what I would say most people who look at life and who really appreciate food and who would say, what's the most amount of this meal I can eat and not gain weight?

Like what's the most amount of this dessert I can have and not feel like we're like or I pick food that has big volumes.

Sure.

Or what's, you know, how can I really fill myself up here and not feel like a pig or not feel like I'm overdoing it and feel good about myself.

How can I gorge?

No, no, no.

And

how can I gorge?

And then over a lifetime, how can I eat a lot and not gain too much weight?

And so you see people who are, I've seen over the years, decades, see people at the gym and they're on the treadmill like five days a week burning 450, 500 calories on the treadmill.

I'm like, why?

Like, first of all, it's beautiful outside and you could go run outside.

Why are you in the gym burning, you know, on this treadmill?

Well, I like to see how many calories I burn on the treadmill.

Why do you do that?

Well, I love to eat.

So wait a minute, you're kidding me.

So you would rather put yourself through all this struggle and suffering and sweating and misery so you can have a few more bites of something you probably shouldn't have in the first place?

Like, how, how bizarre is that as

a motivation?

So true, but haven't you ever heard of the saying, common sense isn't so common?

Yeah, yeah.

So

I took an opposite approach a bunch of years ago, and I said, instead of seeing what what's the most amount of food I can eat and not gain weight, what about what's the least amount of food I can eat, maintain muscle mass or build muscle mass, have all the energy I want, never get sick, and most importantly, not be hungry.

Because the hunger part of it destroys everything.

And if you do that experiment and you start to really pay attention to how much food you used to eat and how much you don't need to eat.

And if you break it down, it's like nobody needs more than 120 grams of protein a day.

You really don't.

You don't need more than 150 grams of carbs.

And even if you did, it would mostly be in the form of vegetables.

And if the rest is fat, we're talking about less than 2,000 calories a day.

So most people could live on,

and I could live well and maintain my mass and my energy on 1,750 calories a day and working out for an hour a day.

I can get away with more and I do and I eat more, but I eat cyclically.

So some days I don't eat that much.

Some days I eat not twice as much, but I eat, I eat more.

Right, right, right.

But you're not eating for emotional.

But I'm not, I'm not, and, and, and again, I'm, I'm back to this notion that if you appreciate when, First of all, if you understand that you, that you don't need to eat that much to maintain all this stuff.

So you don't need to.

That's not a requirement.

And so what it becomes is a luxury, like, okay, how much can I eat and not gain weight?

And how much can I eat?

And so most people find out that the 3,500 calories a day that they're consuming, breakfast, snack, lunch, snack, dinner, snack, they would be well served at 2,200 calories, you know, 30% less than they're consuming if they were just a little bit more judicious about their choices,

which also means more nutritious food.

So when you're judicious about your food choices and you're not eating the bag of Doritos or the ding-dongs or the hohos or the or the

whatever, and you eat food that is nutrient-dense, as they say now, you wind up not being that hungry anyway.

Well, yes, but also there's a difference between need and want.

Like, I know I don't need to eat that much, but I want to because also, I think the pro what you're what you were saying also, the treadmill situation, that let's just use that whole conundrum.

Because the more you work out, the hungrier you get too.

Yeah.

So then

an issue it's an issue so what i've had to do and this is like a trick i guess that i've you know if i work if i like run super hard like i do like hard sprints yeah i end up eating way more during the day because i'm starving versus if i went like kind of slow and more moderate i won't eat as much so it actually makes more sense for my body yeah to go slower so i won't have that rap that that appetite that's like ravenous i get it i get it but you know again we talk about genetics yeah you know as um Blake Shelton would say, you're so little.

You know what I mean?

So you have the genetics that allows you to get away with that.

And you say, but you do.

I mean, it's like, you know, how it can manifest itself in some people.

It's pretty impressive how quickly people can gain weight with just a little bit of extra food daily over

time.

Over time.

So maybe now we're talking about some mental adjustment to your emotional attachment to food.

And what does it mean that you have to feel like you have to finish what's on your plate?

Or you, or you look at a size of, you look at

the buffet, which has 12 slices of cheesecake, and you pick the biggest one because it's still one serving.

100%.

This is like a therapy session now.

You're 100% right.

That's exactly what I do.

But it's so true.

A lot of it's behavioral and also psychological.

What about your supplements?

Like, are you taking, are you on, I want to ask, are you a, you're not, I've heard you also talk that you're not into all the biohacking nonsense right so does that mean you're not like are you still are you doing the sauna are you doing the cooled plunge what are you doing in terms of modalities yeah okay so in terms of supplements i i do take testosterone and i've been doing testosterone okay you know dr trt yeah for almost 10 years just uh

oh interesting only for 10 years so when you're 60.

i started when i was 60 yeah a little after 60 yeah so it's like you know that's become a huge craze now like people in their 40s yeah my like people even their 30s are taking it.

But you said you didn't start until you're 60.

No, no, I didn't start until I felt, like I held off as long as I could

until I thought, all right, now I'm at a point where if I don't do this, my muscle mass will decline at a rate that I can't keep up with.

And it had more to do with the practical application of my being able to go play Ultimate Frisbee or ride

with the guys and to be competitive still in that regard.

So did you see like your ability kind of getting less and less?

And that's why you decided six years?

I just I saw my muscle mass go my weight dropping a pound a year or something like that and I knew it was all muscle because you know

I've had the same body fat since I was 19.

Wow.

So you knew so that's why you went on so you started that and then what did you see happen?

Did you like become like because now you look very muscular again.

Did it make a big difference in your life?

Five pounds.

So over the course of a year,

I put on five or six pounds.

I worked hard at it.

And then I just now I've maintained that for almost 10 years.

So you've been doing that for 10 years and you do it you do a shot yourself every day I guess

once a week once a week yeah once a week okay and then I do collagen because I'm a big fan of collagen I make a collagen supplement the reason I make a collagen supplement was because I'm such a big fan of it and I think everybody ought to supplement with collagen.

Is it the one that you just wait Primal Kitchen, but you sold that like flat you said four years ago.

Yeah.

So but you're still so even though you exited still do you do you have another line of supplements that you just no no Primal Kitchen makes collagen supplement.

So you're still taking that primal kitchen that you created?

Why would I not?

Well no, because you know what?

A lot of times what happens is people get bought out by big companies and they change the formulation.

No, no, no, no.

So, I mean, this is, I get this all the time.

Like, oh, you sold out to Kraft Heinz.

You sold out to Big Food.

I would do the same thing, and most people would, honey.

Well, Big Food, God bless them, they're obligated to improve their shareholder equity.

In our case, Kraft Heinz is a company that owns 50 different brands, and their brands are legacy brands, you know, Jell-O, Kool-Aid, Crystal Light, Oscar Meyer, Or Ida, Planner's Peanuts.

They've owned all these, these brands, Jell-O.

They have no, the brands have no relationship to each other.

They're just a collection of great

or not so great companies.

And so they saw what we were doing and they said, that's a company we'd like to acquire and we'd like to expand it and grow it.

Because some of the other legacy companies are contracting over time.

You know, not that many people are consuming Jell-O anymore.

And so they bought us, not because they wanted to change us, but they're like, oh my God, these guys

know what they're doing and they're changing food.

We've already spawned, I don't know, 50 other companies that are in the same space that we're in right now that are using better for you ingredients the way we are.

So my mission there was to change the way the world eats and we've done that.

You have.

Well, so wait, when you sold it four years ago, right?

How big were how big was the company before you sold it?

Like, how many employees?

What was the revenue?

Like, what was all that?

Okay, so I don't know if I can even say this, but we were like, you know,

47 million in revenue or something like that.

Okay.

Sold it for 200 million and wound up, and we had 100 employees at the time.

All the employees are still with the company.

Yes,

the company's still based in Oxnard,

where we had our original plant and warehouse.

You know, it's grown exponentially since then.

We're in, I don't know, 60,000 stores around the country of 85 SKUs.

So I would not have been able to do that myself.

There was the point at which a founder has to go, you know, how willing am I to personally guarantee every freaking loan against this company, securing my house and the mortgage of my house and my 401k against, you know, against the potential loss.

And we had some unique situations where I was, at the time, probably the largest buyer of avocado oil in the world.

So I had to be buying avocado oil a year in advance around the world to be able to make the products that we make.

So it was unique in that regard.

When Kraft acquired us, they were like, and we had other suitors, but Kraft was like, I see what these guys want to do.

I see the resources they offer, whether it's distribution, whether it was warehousing, certainly funding.

I mean,

they've funded us.

The marketing budget went way up quickly.

I would never have been able to do that.

No way.

What was their marketing budget?

I'm not, I can't, I mean, I guess you could look it up.

I could look it up.

If they went to like 20 million or 25 million a year in marginal budget.

And how much was it before they bought it?

Three, two, three.

I mean, it was like, I'm like writing every check before that.

I know.

Wow.

Yeah, I had no investors in Primal Kitchen.

So

I was the sole source of financing until about a year or 18 months before we sold.

I allowed some of my close friends to acquire a small piece in exchange for cash that I literally kept in the bank and didn't touch.

But when I went to increase my line of credit, the cash was there.

Wow.

Yes, of course.

So you didn't have any investor.

How did you, how were you able, because you said to me when we, before we started, you said you were always very entrepreneurial, right?

Yeah.

Because you can't make money being an endurance

runner.

So So where did you get the capital even to start Primal Kitchen?

What were you doing prior?

Were you a successful entrepreneur already?

I know the Daily Apple.

I mean,

that was a very popular thing.

No, no, no.

I started a supplement company

called Primal Nutrition in 1997.

Okay.

1997.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I, and I, and, and it grew relatively quickly over a bunch of years, but I was very, very close.

Like I had nine, I had seven employees and was doing like $9 million a year year and taking home $3 million from that company.

So that was like really, you know,

close in kind of stuff.

And this was before the internet.

This is before people are doing $150 million in sales, but they're spending $175 million

in advertising.

So that's what I want people to understand for people who don't know, because before internet, social media, and all that other nonsense, you were like, to me, I remember like your rise because I was like, I was like watching, because I was like, oh my God, look at this guy, the letter.

And he's like, you're always like doing all these walks and you're bare feet.

And you're doing, I remember the primal nutrition.

And like, you were like the poster child of like fitness and health naturally.

When I say naturally, like out in the, out in the world doing it, right?

Like, and, you know, I always was wondering, like, did he come from money?

Did you, how did you start?

Was it just.

I grew up, I mean, this is a classic story.

I grew up in a poor, in a poor fishing village in Maine, right?

In a little fishing village in Maine.

And we were poor, but we didn't know it kind of, you know, that, that, that whole story.

So I started at the age of 12, I was working 40 hours a week in the summers mowing lawns.

And then I started painting houses at the age of 14.

I put myself through prep school and college painting houses.

And then that was going to be pre-med, but I was making enough money.

And I was training for the Olympics at the time.

So I put off going to med school for a couple of years, which is now

50 years.

Best thing I ever did was not go to med school.

And then, you know, and I had different, I had a frozen yogurt shop in 1981, 82, which was the first early days of frozen yogurt.

I had a publishing company in the 70s and 80s, started writing books long before the books that you're familiar with.

I had written a couple of, self-published a couple of books.

So I was, and anyway, I started, I started a supplement company in 1997 called Primal Nutrition, and I grew it on my appearances on television, not home shopping or QVC, but I would be on these little cobbled together cable.

like faith and family networks.

Like media buying?

Were you buying time?

I was buying time up from one show.

This guy, Doug Kaufman, to this day, we're great friends.

He had a show called Know the Cause, and I would sponsor his show.

He would buy time on

a Christian broadcasting channel called FamilyNet.

And then I would buy time on his show.

And we just talk about

before podcasts.

We talk the same way we're talking now.

And oh, by the way, I have these great supplements.

And if you're interested, call this number, Operators are standing by, because that's the only way you could buy in those days.

And so it grew nicely a number of years.

And then in 2004, internet started becoming a thing.

Dish and Direct launched with 300 channels.

So in the old days, it was ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, PBS.

And it was always on a Saturday, you could see one infomercial, and they were pretty interesting.

You could watch an infomercial.

Totally.

Well, now, all of a sudden, with 300 channels, there was infomercials everywhere.

And so the call of infomercial world dropped down.

And

in the old days, you used to be able to buy like for $1,000 of local time on KTLA or something like that here.

You could do $5,000 in business.

It was great.

But over the years, it got less and less.

And then eventually $1,000 worth of ad spend got you maybe $200 of actual revenue.

And so you had to make it up with upsells and

continuity or auto ship.

So in 2004, that whole model that I'd been counting on dried up.

And so I took one year, 2005, and I I produced my own TV show.

It was called Responsible Health.

I shot 51 half-hour episodes of a health show on a set with guests.

It was a great show.

And I thought I was going to self-liquidate.

In other words, I was going to be my own sponsor.

And I bought time on Travel Channel.

I was on every morning at 8.30 on Travel Channel, but it did not, it failed to materialize.

I lost, I don't know, a million and a half dollars doing that.

A million and a half bucks that I did not have, by the way.

Wow.

So how did you even, yeah, what did you do?

So in 2006, I said, I'm good at the content part of this.

I'm going to start a blog.

Like, this new blog thing sounds kind of cool.

And, you know, I thought, I'll start blogging and within a year, I'll have 100,000 followers.

This will be amazing.

You know, and well, within a year, I had like, you know, a thousand followers a day or so, a thousand views a day.

But over the years, it became within five or six years, it became the most popular ancestral blog on the internet.

And we rose up through the ranks.

I don't know if you remember Alexa, which was the original ranking system.

We got up to 3,200 on Alexa.

I don't know if you know if you remember Alexa.

It ranks from

1 to 350 million.

I remember.

And we were 3,200, yeah.

And the first 50 were like, you know, Google Russia, Google France, Google any of that.

Whatever happened to Alexa.

Does it gone now?

I think it's gone.

I haven't heard about it for a long time.

Except Alexa, like that.

Alexa, tell me what to do.

The weather.

So you mean, so you just start, so you were like an early adopter of this idea.

So, so then, like, by the way, how many people now are, do you have like subscribers?

So, you know, I think we hit our max at probably three and a half million a month, uniques a month, at one point.

But then what happened was Marks Daily Apple spawned thousands of other similar websites.

And so the attention span of the average viewer who used to only go to Joe Mercola, Marxist, and whatever, Marks Daily Apple, now had all these other choices.

So we sort of declined in that area.

But based on that platform that I built, I was able to have a best-selling book.

The Primal Blueprint went to number one on Amazon of all books worldwide one day on Amazon on a push that I did.

By the way, because everything now, if you don't have a newsletter,

it's hard to sell and create a community.

So

you had a built-in community to sell whatever the hell you want.

And so that primal nutrition, those supplements, you had a direct vessel.

It's just selling so much.

And what happened was, because I was writing so much about food and doing things naturally and not taking supplements, my supplement business sort of fell by the wayside.

And so in 2014, I thought to myself, I'm writing about food.

I'm writing about, you know, how food is the way to change your health.

Every Friday, we have a recipe.

Often it's for a sauce or a dressing or something like that.

People who recognize that once they give up the pies, the cakes, the candies, the cookies, the sweetened beverages, the pastas, whatever, It's a pretty small grouping of food that's left.

And the only thing you can do about it is put cool stuff on it: sauces, dressings, toppings, herbs, spices, the methods of preparation.

And I realized that there was nothing in the regular grocery aisle that would fit my criteria for a better-for-you, good-for-you, healthy mayonnaise or salad dressing, even Newman's own.

So that's how Primal Kitchen got started.

So, if you guys have been listening to the podcast for a while, you know that I do not mess around when it comes to anti-aging or longevity.

And I absolutely love realistic things you can do every day to help support the process easily.

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So wait, you only started Primal Christian in what year?

2014?

2014?

2014?

Yeah.

And you only sold it like in 2019, 18?

So you only had it for five years?

I had it for less than that, yeah.

Yeah.

We started in 2014.

We didn't launch our first product until February of 2015.

And by the end of 2018, I had a firm offer to buy.

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah, it was one of the fastest growing food companies.

What would have happened if you held on to it for two more years?

Well, two more years.

We had COVID.

We had the COVID.

I mean, so, you know, we have, there are a lot of timing things where I'm like, what would have happened is, you know, I probably would have, you know, I don't know what I would have done.

It was a, it was a stressful time for me.

So it worked out just

fine.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So that's, hold on.

So

the supplement, just to like finish the loop on the supplement company, did you just shut it down?

The primal nutrition channel?

No, so

Kraft bought the supplement company along with

it.

They're still primal kitchen supplements.

They got sort of rebranded from primal nutrition to primal kitchen.

But you were selling the primal nutrition supplement.

From 1997.

So here's to close that loop on financing a business.

Yeah.

So I had this supplement company that was generating a good income for me.

And I said, I'm going to start a food company, but I'm not going to start a separate food company because that would mean I'd take for every dollar I make in California and take out of the company, I have to,

I literally wind up with 40 cents

that I can put over here to start a new company.

So I started.

adding products to the old company.

Yeah.

So Primal Kitchen never existed as a company.

It was owned by Primal Nutrition LLC.

And the brand became Primal Kitchen.

And so we wound up doing business as Primal Kitchen.

But so I was using pre-tax dollars to do the RD, to hire the new people, to test the concept, and ultimately to grow the company.

Oh my gosh.

So what was your first product you came out with for Primal Kitchen?

The mayonnaise, what we call the OG mayonnaise.

The mayonnaise was the first?

Not the ketchup?

No, God, the ketchup was way late.

The ketchup was years later.

The original product was Primal Kitchen regular mayonnaise, avocado oil-based mayonnaise.

And then we had a Chipotle lime.

We had a garlic aioli mayonnaise.

So we had three mayonnaise within a year.

We broke every rule.

I mean, some of our mentors would say, you can't be in more than one aisle.

Well, at the end of six months, we had two flavors of mayonnaise, two bars in the bar aisle, collagen bars.

Right, I remember that.

And then three salad dressings in the dressing aisle, you know, and we were crushing it.

We were just like...

Rushing it.

I can't even believe that.

So basically, not until recently, you you weren't really this rich until recently yeah correct that is amazing i really thought that like it was more i didn't realize that you it's a hobby of

rich kid floating around well you look so working out all day you look so debonair exactly and you're like doing all these fun things you're like i heard you're like saying barts here saying doing this and doing that like so this is like a new lifestyle for you in a way um yeah i mean look we lived well my wife and i yeah and you've been married for like a hundred years too right right.

Close.

We've been together 35.

I just had my 70th birthday in France, and it was the 35th.

The first time she kissed me was on my birthday when I was 35 years old.

So she's been with me more than half my life.

Wow.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

So, but we've, you know, we've taken nice vacations.

We've lived in nice homes.

We've driven nice cars, nice restaurants.

We've had a nice, I mean, you know,

I mean, I was making between two and three million a year with my little supplement business.

And as we say in Malibu, some people can live on that.

Exactly.

So, exactly.

I mean,

it's horrible to say, but no, it's so true.

It's like, come on.

It's like, it's hilarious.

It's like, it's, it's different here.

It's just unbelievable.

Yeah.

But in other aspects of my life, I've always been a very, very minimalist guy.

Like, my that's your whole brand, of course.

You know, my, you know, my daily uniform is some Lululemon shorts and a t-shirt.

Tell me about it.

And some paluvas now.

Yeah, exactly.

But so anyway, so yeah, what's happened since the sale of the company is the vacations have become spectacular adventures.

So, and I take 20 family members with us

on these trips.

That's amazing.

Congratulations.

That's really amazing.

So then, because of the newsletter, are you able to push through the paluvas?

Basically, anything that you create in a way, you have a direct vessel to millions of people to buy your stuff.

So does everything become an automatic,

is this the first thing that you started after Primal Kitchen got sold?

Yeah, now I also have a health coaching business, Primal Health Coach Institute, which is a, it's been around for 10 years.

We've trained 5,000 coaches.

It's completely an online learning experience.

It's the most robust health coaching program in the world.

And I've had many doctors take it and say, geez, I wish I'd learned this in medical school because I've reconfigured my entire practice around these principles.

And it's the principles of the primal blueprint.

It's literally, you know, going back and looking at the root cause of disease and illness and working with the patients to fix it, not to put a band-aid on it.

So anyway, I have this, I have the Primal Health Coach Institute.

Okay, and how many people do you have?

We put 5,000 people to do.

So what are the prerequisites?

Can any, you know, Tom, Dick, or Harry just start to do it?

Pretty much, although it helps to have basic college education.

You don't need to.

We've had a couple of people with a basic high school education go through, but you need a college education, but you're going to learn, you know, biology and you're going to learn biomechanics and you're going to learn.

I mean, in addition to all the science and all the stuff, my idea was because my original plan was I wanted to change the lives of 10 million people around the world.

That was my original mission at Mark's Daily Apple.

And then a couple of years in, I added a zero to it.

So I wanted to be 100 million people.

Certainly, my books have

had some effect on that.

Podcasts, obviously, the blog itself.

Because you've done podcasts too, right?

I mean, we do.

It's a primal, it's a primal

kitchen podcast, but my co-founder, Morgan, at Primal Kitchen, who's still now, she's the CEO of Primal Kitchen, and she's, you know, she's a dynamo who runs Primal Kitchen for craft.

So she's

so you had a co-founder?

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

What was her role in the beginning of this whole thing?

So initially, she was a marketing director at a sparkling probiotic company called Covita.

Oh, I remember that?

That's where I met her.

And Cavita sponsored an event that we had that my company had.

We used to hold these events called Primal Con.

We'd do a three-day experience at a resort.

And for three days, people would come in from around the world and they'd learn how to Olympic lift and how to sprint right and how to move right and how to do throw an adelatl.

I mean, it was crazy.

And we had guest speakers who would come in.

And so all the original early guest speakers, you know, Rob Wolf and john durant and you know people that that you now uh have probably listened have listened to for a long time doctors would talk it's no longer you guys you don't you don't do it anymore no we did about 15 of them over the years okay and we usually have anywhere from 100 to 150 people oh wow for three days it was it was great but anyway so morgan on behalf of kavita they sponsored an event and kavita was located in oxnard and we were having the event at the um embassy suites on the beach in oxnard so we just uh so she wanted to meet me.

She was a fan.

So she wanted, so she brought the product over and we wound up hanging out for dinner that night.

And then she drove my wife and myself home and said, oh, by the way, here's my card.

I'm thinking about leaving Cavita if you ever need any help in marketing.

So literally like six months later, I just decided to do this, this food company.

And I called her up and I said, you know, what are you up to?

So for a year, she worked for me, you know, as a consultant, as a marketing consultant hourly.

Long story short, I had had earlier partners that just didn't work out and I bought them out.

And so I said to Morgan, let's just do this.

We're waiting too long to get stuff to market.

Let's just make this happen.

And so she came on and she got awarded some equity.

So I, you know, she was a co-founder in that regard.

Yeah.

So basically, that's interesting.

I didn't know that.

Wow.

And so that's the girl who does the Primal Kitchen podcast.

Basically.

Oh my gosh.

Okay.

And K, by the way, I think we didn't talk about, you were talking about supp we got like totally

all over the place.

I know, because it's so fascinating to me.

But what supplements are, You said collagen is the supplement that you believe in a lot.

Yep.

You take the primal kitchen one.

Yep.

Or primal nutrition.

Primal nutrition.

Yeah.

Okay.

What other ones are you a believer in?

Vitamin D.

Vitamin D.

Okay.

Yep.

Everyone.

And I feel like everyone, like me, everyone takes this vitamin D.

It's become very common.

What other ones?

Do you take like NAD?

No?

No.

Do you don't take like fish oil?

No, not anymore.

Why?

I just.

I've come down to this.

Again, we're talking about minimalism.

I know minimalism, I know.

And

a term that was sort of, I think, popularized by Tim Ferriss is minimum effective dose.

Like, what's the minimum effective dose of food?

What's the minimum effective dose of exercise that I can do?

Yeah.

Get away with it, not beat myself up, but still benefit from.

And I think, what's the minimum effective dose of micronutrients?

And,

you know, this gets us into that whole carnivore Paul Saladino discussion about

if you get rid of of grains, grains are such absolute leechers of everything in your body.

Like the original RDAs, which were created in the 40s, I think they were based on a grain-based diet.

So, yeah, you had to have, you know, all of these high levels of vitamins and minerals to keep up because the grain was sucking it all out of you.

Right.

When you get rid of grains,

for the most part, and you cut back on sugar and you get rid of seed oils, and you just have these nutrient-dense foods that that are, in my case, meat-based, animal protein-based.

You don't, there's all the nutrients that you need in those.

And I remember getting in trouble a little bit in the past when I was thinking, like in the 70s or training for my first Iron Man, I was getting sick all the time.

I upped my vitamin C to 25 grams a day.

I mean, that's just unbelievable.

You know, like the RDA is 60 milligrams.

I was doing whatever that is, you know, 500 times.

Yeah, 500 times at least.

Yeah.

So, and I got, I would get, I got sick from doing that.

And I thought, well, I've just thrown the entire balance of my body off thinking that I needed

all these things or even some of these things.

I mean, the worst is thinking you need some of these things or like one of these things is going to cure it.

I mean, you hear a lot of people talk about like.

electrolytes now.

And so magnesium is a big thing.

But if you don't balance out the magnesium with potassium and sodium, then you have other issues.

Well, that's the problem, right?

Because everything now, especially with social media, people are so confused.

And so they hear one person say one thing, another person say another thing, and then they end up taking everything and not knowing what they're even deficient in.

Right.

Right.

As opposed to like, but then how do you know?

How did you figure out what is the minimum amount of this, minimum amount of that that I can do, get that I can get away with to be as efficient as possible?

How do you even figure that out?

Yeah, so the two things that I look at are, first of all, in the terms of collagen, collagen should be a fourth macronutrient.

Yeah.

There should be protein, fat, carbohydrate, and collagen.

And collagen is different from protein because it's different.

They're different configurations of diet tripeptides.

And you can't get them from like organ meat.

You can't get them from a chicken breast.

You can't get it from lamb, beef, pork.

You have to either eat the gristle, the skin, bone broth,

chicken stock.

And since we don't do that regularly anymore, I mean, we did a generation ago or two generations ago, but we don't now.

I mean, there's a whole generation in the 80s of people, bodybuilders, who ate skinless, boneless chicken breast and white rice.

Do you remember that?

Oh my gosh.

That was like whatever.

By the way, people still do that.

You know, that.

I know.

I know.

So, collagen, I think, is important as a, and you need to get like 10, 20, 30 grams a day, in my estimation, because it's the only thing that really supports connective tissue.

And so much of your body is collagen.

It's the most prevalent actual protein in your body between fascia, ligaments, tendons, cartilage.

So what do you do then?

You just say you supplement for it?

So I supplement.

Sure.

So that's a supplement.

So I take the collagen supplement.

But the supplement, wouldn't it be better for you to actually do the other natural things?

Sure.

You You want to come over to my house and make some bone broth and do some chicken stock and stand over that stove and

simmer all day.

In my spare time, I'll be more than happy to do it.

Right.

So you do that, you take how many spoonfuls of that?

20 grams a day.

You should.

Because they say that doesn't like they.

I don't know who these they are, but like that it doesn't actually help, it doesn't kind of penetrate properly or get like into the system well.

Yeah.

You don't believe that.

I mean, I believe that there's some utility in doing it because I had my own experience of coming back from a from a debilitating injury that I thought was going to end my running, jumping

the Achilles thing, yeah.

Yeah, and I came back from that like 100%.

So I'm like, okay, I get that.

Then I've seen a couple of studies where they label collagen peptides and they have people do a six minute, they drink 15 grams 15 minutes before a jump rope session, and then they label the uptake into the Achilles after the, it's pretty cool.

Really?

And you can show the increased uptake of the collagen peptides.

Yeah.

I should check this is a joke more of that so that's something you really believe in hydro okay what else then and then vitamin d and vitamin d as i said for 20 years shouldn't be considered a vitamin it's more like a hormone and it yeah it's a pro hormone so because it regulates your hormone right so i'm still not supplementing with it with with one particular vitamin because vitamin d should be should be a hormone so that's it and um you know that's so far you know so good that i've cut back in the last maybe five or ten years to just that how about peptides are you a big believer in peptides do you do the sauna Do you do the cold plunge?

Do you all?

Yeah, so I don't do peptides.

My wife loves them.

So Carrie does.

And she believes in them.

And I can't argue with the results, but I just, I've tried a couple of times and didn't see anything.

I just didn't,

didn't work for me.

I was an early adopter of the cold plunge.

Okay.

Started doing it probably 15 years ago at our house in Malibu.

And this was completely unrelated to the latest science.

But I was, as a triathlete, I was probably the best runner that ever crossed over into triathlon.

I became a very good cyclist, and it was a shit swimmer.

Like, I have a record at Iron Man that'll never be broken, and that's the slowest swim time for a top five finisher.

Had I learned how to swim,

my life would have changed because I would have been probably one of the best in the world, and it would have shifted all my choices.

So glad that didn't happen.

Wow.

But over the years, I'm like, I hated...

water.

I hated cold water.

I hated swimming.

I didn't want to learn how to swim.

It didn't.

I only did it because I had to.

It was like, again, pain management, right?

Right.

Discomfort.

So at one point in Malibu, I'm like, this is, this is ridiculous.

Like, I, like, I,

I squeal getting into, you know, an 81-degree public pool.

What the hell is that about?

So, yeah.

So I said, I'm going to, I'm going to deal with that.

So I, I, uh, we kept our pool unheated in Malibu.

And so sometimes it would get down into the high 40s and low 50s because, you know, when the Santa winds blow,

the the warm water, no matter how cold it is, the relative warm water comes to the top.

And then the, the winds, the 30-mile an hour, 40-mile-an-hour cold winds blow it off.

And so it super cools.

So we would have this ritual every night where I'd go out the backyard naked, walk into the pool with zero affect, just thinking to myself, it's not good, it's not bad, it's just a sensation.

Walk into the pool, dunk myself down, hang out, and after as long as I could stand it, which is anywhere from two to five minutes, I would get in, I would join my wife in the jacuzzi where she was hanging out comfortably.

And so we did that for years.

Then when we moved to Miami, we have a spa there with a cold plunge.

But I think what I've found for myself is that I never really got the so-called the purported benefits of brown fat activation or decreased inflammation.

It was just a head trip for me.

It's just, it's all it's ever been is like, okay, I'm going to go do a cold plunge.

I know I'll feel good.

I'll feel refreshed after I do it.

I mean, it was great, but I wasn't doing it for some long-range longevity strategy or for reducing inflammation.

It was more like do something every day that makes you uncomfortable.

And I stopped running a long time ago and I stopped, you know, whatever.

So, so this for me was my

discomfort.

What I found happening was that it became,

then it just, so many people started doing it.

And I encouraged other people to do it at my, at my building that I live in in the gym and the spa.

And then, you know, they'd say, how long did you spend in the cold punch today?

I'm like, well, I did four and a half minutes.

Well, I did five and a half today, Mark.

I'm like, oh, shit, now I got to go to seven just to show it can be done.

And it became this ridiculous.

And then I got sick a couple of times spending too much time in the cold plunge.

Really?

Oh, of course.

A hormetic stress is only good to the point that it's going to cause a positive adaptation.

100%.

But they be, but hormetic stresses become bad quite rapidly.

It's a curve.

And at the other end of the curve, it might cost you a couple of days in recovery.

Whether it's too much time in the sauna, whether it's too much time in the cold plunge, whether it's too long a run on a hot day.

or, you know, like if you're like I was an as an athlete, I know I left some of my best races on the track two weeks before the race, thinking, I gotta, you know, I gotta dial this in, I gotta, I gotta do one more

half mile at, you know, 214.

So it was, I've, I've also recognized that in this risk management stage that I'm in of my life,

that there's some, some, there are some things I just don't need to do.

And, and I'll get in the plunge once in a while.

We have one, we have a plunge on our roof in the Palisades.

So when we're staying in the Palisades, I'll get into the plunge

pool and it's great.

Do a couple of minutes.

I don't need to break a record.

Right.

You know, it sounds to me you're very, like, you're like a very practical person.

You're not very, I mean, you're extreme.

Maybe you were extreme with your exercise, but like everything else seems like you have a very common sense, practical like approach to it.

Like, I know I heard you also talk very much about, again, like, you're not into wearables, right?

Yeah.

Again, like, and the the truth of the matter is like they're not even accurate

you put 12 on exactly i used to believe

i get everyone sends me all their wearables i wear them for a couple months and i'm like what am i doing like they're not even like what's the point like i need somebody to tell me if i'm sleeping well not sleeping well like i know if i slept well or not right well and and as as i will go one further and say

bad data is worse than no data yeah that's true too okay so we played ultimate frisbee on uh sunday and uh we played for an hour and a half, and we played man on man.

And so, you know,

I'm being very economical with my running.

I don't make an end zone run, you know, every play.

If I'm guarding my man, I'm keeping him within a distance.

And at the end of the game,

the guy I was guarding, he asked everybody around, did you start your watch today?

And everybody started their watches.

Well, mine says I burned 1,320 calories.

I'm like, Jesus, man, if you burn 320 calories, I would be surprised.

Even that's a lot, though.

Your watch is lying to you.

Well, you know, it's said it every week.

And okay, well, you're still fat.

You know, it's so funny that you just said that because it's true.

Like.

I can run like my ass off for an hour and you look at my watch.

I'm like, 346 calories.

I'm like, people overestimate the amount of calories that they actually burn.

And so they say, oh, you know what?

I could eat this piece of cake now.

But if they actually knew how much that cake had, it's like 50 runs, not one run, right?

Exactly.

It's so crazy, but we are our brains play tricks on us yeah but i find also when you wear all these wearables it actually gave me anxiety like look at oh i gotta look i might sleepy not well

and it becomes like this gamifying thing where it actually like did me worse than if i just like like you know how i i know how i slept did i sleep did i sleep from 12 to 7 do i feel rested do i not like whatever it is you know what i mean no there's there's something disconcerting about waking up in the morning and going oh i slept great and the watch goes no you didn't

exactly right but it's it's so, why do you think all of this, do you think it's just going to keep on going like this?

No, but I think you said the word, the gamification of life.

People are, they're into their devices.

So

true.

You know, I,

when we're in the south of France, where we spend summers, we were there for three months this year.

So you're so fancy now.

Pardon me.

Oh, yeah.

So fancy now.

You know, and I do carry my phone with me and we walk a lot, you know, but it's interesting that how different my phone shows the steps I did with my wife's phone who walked the whole way with me.

Right.

Isn't that totally different?

Wow.

It's very different, right?

It's so off that it just makes you think, why am I even paying attention to this?

It's like, but it's a game.

So, as some people would say, the treadmill at the gym shows you a relative number.

It's only relative to you.

So, if you think that you are burning 700 calories, but you only burned 400, if that 700 is more than the 600 you burned yesterday, that you

then then you're still it's still going to be a benefit to you as a game as a game well right that's why like i use my i wear the apple watch for the steps like did i do 10 000 steps i mean it doesn't make a difference he can wear one you can wear one and i like your wife we all have different steps doing the exact same thing but at the end of the day i mean i'm not using it for anything beyond that even that to me is a lot no my wife did a yoga class every day at our we so we had a yoga teacher come to our house in france yeah and and she would have we we always had we're entertaining guests So we ever had anywhere from two to eight people that would be staying with us.

And so the yoga teacher would come and do a yoga class in the morning.

And Carrie would look at her watch and go, I did 2,500 steps during yoga.

Exactly.

It makes no sense.

And it makes no sense at all.

No.

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So, can I ask you another question I want to know because you're a runner?

Okay, so as you get older, you know, like you, I think I heard you mention somewhere that as you said also on this podcast, you don't want to, you want to have a whole thing against running into the walking.

Yeah.

Can you talk about that?

Yeah.

And I also want to ask you, because you are a runner, you're the runner's high.

Like, I'm trying to stop running.

I'm sure a lot of people do, right?

When I'm in your 40s, whatever.

My body is like, it's killing me, yet you don't get that same high.

What can you substitute it for?

Because nothing I've found does that at like a runner's high.

Yeah, it took me five years after I retired to stop training as if I was still competing.

Really?

Yeah.

He said, what do you do?

How did you do it?

Well, eventually it went away.

The mojo went away.

So, and for example,

I ran 100 miles a week for seven years at the heyday.

And then I kept,

that was as a runner.

And then even as a triathlete, even though I was injured and I had running issues, I still ran 30 to 40 miles a week.

I just couldn't run them.

Right.

I haven't run a mile in 25 years.

I have not run a mile in 25 years.

I haven't put on shoes to go run.

I sprint.

I'll do beach sprints and I'll play ultimate where I'll apparently, you know, do 13,000 steps or something.

Yeah, exactly, right?

But it's not the same, but do you get the same, where do you get that same endorphin rush?

So the endorphin rush, I really want to do a study on this at some point because I think the endorphin rush is the same as if I don't know if you subscribe to any of these nature is brutal kind of things on the internet, but where they, where they'll, you know, people on Safari will show a lion eating a zebra that's still alive.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I went on a Safari myself.

I'm fascinated by all of that.

I think the same thing happens to a runner in that this is a life-threatening situation.

You're running, you're putting your body through this every day.

Right.

And so there are certain receptors in the brain.

They call them the endocannabinoid receptors.

They call it endorphins or encephalins, the natural morphine-like substances that your brain produces.

And I think what they're doing in an evolutionary context is they're just keeping you euphoric in an otherwise life-threatening situation.

And so we tend to seek these out because we can.

Like our ancestors would not have run 10 miles a day every day.

That's just stupid.

That's a waste of resources and everything.

Our ancestors, based on their native fitness, were able to run 10 miles, maybe 20, chasing an antelope and tracking it and chasing it and sprinting and whatever.

But the idea of running daily didn't exist for a lot of reasons.

Cut to modern life where we think that running is good for you and therefore we do it.

And we do it because we can do it.

And we can do it because we carboload every day to be able to go out and do it again tomorrow and the next day and the next day.

And then we have these cushioned shoes, these high-tech running shoes that encourage us to heel strike.

And so we become terrible runners because we're heel striking.

Look, humans have two basic gates, maybe a third in between, but the basic gait is walking, which is a heel-toe, land on the heel, push off on the big toe, land on the heel, push off, and a sprint or a fast run, which is typically a barefoot run because that's how we evolve, which is landing on the midfoot, not on the heel, not striking on the heel, but landing on the midfoot.

Now you can run slower than a sprint or faster than a walk and do a combination of those.

But

if you were to do that on the plains of Africa or even some of the tundra in northern Europe, and you're barefoot,

you'd still be able to feel the ground underneath and you'd still be able to land.

Your brain would get all the sensory input of how to weight, how to bend the foot, how to bend the knee, how to torque

the ankle, how to twist the hip and how to absorb all that shock with every footfall.

You take that all away when you put on thick cushioned shoes and now there's no sensory input in the foot.

And now the shoes are encouraging you to run heel strike, heel strike, heel strike.

And so so many people are running.

Like when I started running in the 60s, I ran in Chuck Taylor's.

And

I could run 40 miles a week, max, And it's my feet that would say,

you're done.

You're done for the week.

And then along came on at Sugar Tigers, which is the first sort of racing flat.

And you could run 40 miles a week or maybe 50.

And then when Bill Bowerman went to Phil Knight and said, hey, I got this guy, this runner, Kenny Moore.

He's one of the, he could be one of the best in the world, but his shoes won't let him run more than 80 miles a week.

Can we build a shoe that'll let him run 130 miles a week?

And that's the origin of the thick running shoe was this thing that would let some of the early Nike runners put in more miles and train harder and be able to race against world-class athletes.

Well, that's if you're a great runner.

But then as the rest of the country began jumping on the running boom and thinking that because Ken Cooper wrote a book in 1968 called Aerobics, the more you run, the better it is for your heart.

And so everybody became a runner in the 70s.

And they became pretty bad runners.

And they started doing and so this heel running, landing on your heel and rolling over became the way most people sort of learned how to run.

So, what that does is that encourages bad form.

It pushes all of the stress away from the foot and up to the knee and up to the hip and lower back.

And in my case, the hip.

So, I have bone on bone in my hip now from all of the years of running.

Yeah.

Never got a hip replacement?

I'm thinking about scheduling one fairly soon.

I'm putting it off as long as I can.

Yeah.

Wow.

I heard they're pretty easy now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've just not had good experience with medicine at all.

I don't blame you.

So, So I guess where were we with the cushioning and the...

No, I was going to say, well, my first question was, how do you replace the endorphin?

So the endorphin.

So the endorphin, so we got to the point where people were running daily because they got this endorphin that they thought was good for them.

And the classic example is the ex-heroin addict who becomes a running addict because he's replacing the one form of morphine, a workout addict,

with the other.

I see what you're saying.

So it's not necessarily even good for us to have that endorphin.

No, it's not.

I would say it's not even good to to have that.

It's not necessarily good.

It's, it's fine, but it's, I think evolutionarily, it's not serving the same purpose we think it is.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

But if you're so used to it, so you said that over time, it'll just, you won't need it as much the less you do it.

Or you find other, you get in the cold plunge.

You know, I also like you.

I'm not, you know, crazy.

You know, or you do the sauna, or you do a heavy lifting day, and you get the same.

But heavy lifting to me doesn't give me the same.

I still do it.

I don't get the same thing.

So,

this is going to be a therapy session as well.

But, you know, what is it about the running?

What do you think you crave about the running?

Because the rush is not, it's not, that doesn't cut it.

I think it's to sweat, like when I sweat like that, I sweat when I do weights like that or whatever else.

Yeah.

And like, just be able, like, it's my form of meditation, right?

Because I'm not a meditator, right?

But that's how I think of my best things when I'm running.

And I feel because I'm like doing something at

my heart rate, it's hard for me still to to do it.

All those reasons.

I think walking, I love walking and I walk a ton, but it doesn't, it's not the same.

It doesn't, it doesn't like give me that feeling like, oh, I, you know, the psychological thing, like I did something.

Yeah, so let's talk about that.

So now, running versus walking.

Dr.

Mark.

So walking is probably the best thing a human being can do.

The best, single, best exercise.

Look, we're bipedal.

We are designed.

We're built to walk.

Yeah.

I'm thinking about writing this book, Born to Walk, instead of Born to Run.

Why don't you do that?

Well,

we are.

So, but the idea is that, like, how fast can you walk?

If you're walking normally and somebody says, okay, let's walk to Century City, you know, do, you know, okay, I can walk to Beverly Hills from here in 30 minutes.

Okay,

like, like, how many miles is that?

Two.

Yeah.

So

you're walking 16 minute miles.

Is that bad?

No, you're walking.

That's great.

16 minute miles is pretty fast.

And I could probably go faster if I wasn't on my phone and distracted.

Not much.

Let's just say you could.

Yeah.

Let's say.

Not by a lot.

No, but this is my point.

Let's say you could walk 15 or 14 minute miles.

Yeah.

Can you run seven minute miles for that long?

No.

Why not?

I could.

It's only twice as fast.

That's my point.

Most people can only run at best, only twice as fast as they can walk.

Not three times as fast, not four times as fast, at best, only twice as fast.

So if I said, instead of a half-hour run, why don't you do a one-hour walk, cover the same distance, burn the same calories, zero chance of injury.

In fact, when you're a runner and you get injured, walking is how you get back from an injury.

Walking is the least injurious activity that you can do.

It's the best for your posture, for your gait.

Now, you need to do it barefoot or in minimalist shoes.

Barefoot doesn't make sense.

Walking in Beverly Hills, you got to.

But so that's where the whole idea of minimalist shoes, wide, thin, flat, flexible shoes come in.

You want to feel the ground.

You want to feel every time you step on a root or a rock, you want the toes to articulate.

You want the toes to, yeah, you want to feel the ground underneath you.

So that shoe you have right there is only point, it's, it's 0.9 centimeters.

It's nine millimeters thick.

So that feels, it's got just enough cushion so that when you walk on concrete, you don't get a bone bruise.

Right.

And I, that was one of the first things I looked at when I was creating these shoes was how, how could we make these suitable for walking 10 miles in the urban jungle?

Because I can walk to Beverly Hills at night.

I can do 30.

And I want you to, and I want you to.

I'm going to do it today, but I can't get my toes in here.

Well, we're going to to have to work on that.

The reason you can't get your toes in there is because you've scrunched your feet together for so many years in those hot little heels of yours and those running shoes and everything else.

And so we need to work on the toe splay.

Right.

Because if you can imagine, if you took it to its logical conclusion, a shoe this high off the ground and with a narrow base is not far off from a stilt.

Like, would you want to walk on stilts to, you know, and how much, you know, but as opposed to if you walked barefoot or you walked in minimal shoes and and you were able to splay your toes out and feel everything and feel every toe working and work all the small muscles of your feet,

your feet would get stronger, your ankles would get stronger.

So you'd be less inclined to roll them.

And then one of the great comments we're getting from a lot of people is how all the muscles up the leg, up the kinetic chain of the leg, are benefiting more from the ground feel.

Really?

Yeah.

Especially weightlifters.

Guys lifting deadlifts and lunges and squats in the gym are saying, look, my legs are benefiting from my wearing the paluvas because of the toe splay, because of the 100%.

In fact, actually, when I do my lower, when I do my weights and stuff like that, I take off my shoes and I do my deadlifts and my things.

And my feet are so weak, like my, they wobble.

My ankles are wobbling.

It's terrible.

So I can just wear these.

Totally.

And the idea behind these is don't run in them yet.

I mean, years down the road, you could, but walk in them, spend the day in them.

And we have, we have different models for, you know, driving, for, for doing errands, for picking the kids up at school, so going out to dinner.

These are, these are the the leather lace-ups for, you know, weddings and funerals.

Can you please send those to me?

I will wear those.

Those are the nicest ones I've seen.

Okay.

I mean, these ones, though, like, for, so you're telling, it's more, again, it's all psychological.

Like, I have to get used to the feeling that I don't have that support in the arch, right?

Like, yes, you do.

It's all psychological.

It's all psychological.

And so you spend, you know,

you wear these around the house the first day for an hour and then you take them off.

And then the next day for two hours.

And then the third day you walk to Beverly Hills at two miles in them yeah you know I'm gonna do that tonight okay so where are they being sold are they just on your website just on the website for now through the newsletter no so Mark's Daley Apple is is owned by Kraft so stop it yeah yeah so I still write for it and I still but it's but Kraft acquired you know they they acquired the the food company they required they acquired the uh

I bet you they bought you because of that newsletter too I don't know about that 100% that data that newsletter that database all so they got all the names of the people.

That's so smart.

That's what everyone's doing.

No, I know, but understand, they're not a direct response company.

No, I know, but that's what's valuable, right?

Like, that's what makes someone valuable.

You have, like, they have a direct way to sell to people now.

That's what your big secret sauce.

Yeah.

Wow.

So, if you were, if you still write for them, no, we've done pieces on

you put something in there, sure.

But not every day, you know, not

often.

It's got to be nice, but you got to be like one of those things.

It's a newsletter, and there's not a lot of advertising to begin with.

Are you actually still like between you and me and maybe a couple people?

Are you really writing that newsletter stuff?

I have a team.

I have a team of researchers and writers, and I write some of the stuff, and some of the stuff is, you know, that can be done by other people.

Some of the heavy lifting by other people, that's what's done.

Wow.

Okay, so then what else are you working on?

So this has been out for how long, this paluba?

We launched in March of this year.

Okay, so you're pretty brand new, really new.

Yeah.

All right.

So this, what else are you, besides going to the south of France, of course, What else are you doing besides that?

This, what else are you up to?

The book, Born to Run or Born to Walk?

Yeah.

Are you really working on that yet?

Or are you?

So I'm always working on a book.

Always.

Yeah.

And so I've got a sort of a longevity book that I'm working on that is the anti-Huberman Atia approach.

Really?

Which is what tell me what it is.

It's

more like.

Don't do all these things.

How do you feel?

Yeah.

It's really, it's based on common sense and being attuned to the body and how you feel versus how a device tells you or a blood test or a

how do you okay that's such okay.

So I love that.

So like, how do you because people like magic pills, right?

And that's why a lot of people, a lot of these people are very popular and these things are popular because people want to, you know, say, oh, it's the, oh, I can try this to get, you know, my secret body that I always wanted or I can, I can shave 20 years off of my age if I do this secret thing, right?

Like once you tell people, like I wrote, not to bore you with my whole story, but back when my first book was called No Gym Required.

And I did a shoe that was a weighted shoe, right?

And my whole thing was basically giving people these simple solutions to be healthier and fit, which were really like basic stuff.

Like I would say, like, kind of similar to you, that's why I really like, you know, you resonated with me.

I was like, do a squat, a push-up, a lunge, a pull-up, whatever.

Basics.

Like, you don't have to rely on these crazy machines.

You don't have to rely on this.

Like, you can do all these things.

People didn't care.

Yeah.

They wanted the people, they were like very interested in all this other kooky stuff that was not even like helpful, really.

It's just a money maker.

So how do you expect now, you know, 20 years later, to try to tell people that's all nonsense.

You can just listen to yourself and use common sense.

People don't want to believe that.

I'm not into the magic pill moneymaker

thing.

But people like

that, but

when I made a mayonnaise at retail for $9.95 for a 12-ounce jar, people said, you're crazy.

No one's going to buy it.

It's like that.

They want crunchy, salty, fatty, sweet.

They want cheap.

They want, you know, they want.

That's true.

And I'm like, yeah, a lot of them do, but I bet there's some people who want this.

So I write and I make product for the some people, for the some people who are, you know, willing to suspend disbelief maybe a little bit and put on a five-toed shoe or who are willing to give up their wearables for an experiment that lasts a couple of weeks and really forces them to look inward into how they feel or their thought process.

I have all the money I need to live the rest of my my life luxuriously, and I don't need to leave it to kids or grandkids.

I'm just, I'm living my life, but I'm going to do it on my terms.

And so, you know, I've always been ahead of the curve in some of this stuff, but one of my problems has been timing.

I've been, I was, you know, 10 years ahead of the curve on the seed oil thing.

I started talking about it in 2007.

Well, had I launched Primal Kitchen then, it would have been a failure because it took 10 years of educating the world to get there to be accepting of a very expensive mayonnaise that was demonstrably the best on the shelves and better for them because of the knowledge base that I'd built and the credibility and all of the other educational aspects of that.

It worked.

And do you think now people are ready to hear the next evolution of like, don't worry about wearing that whoop and that aura ring or whatever.

I'm not, I'm just whatever.

You don't need that.

Listen to yourself.

Some people are.

Some people are.

Some people are.

All I need is some people.

All you need is some people.

Like, as I said on a recent podcast,

in the U.S., there's 330 million people or whatever the number is, and they all need shoes.

And some people are going to need paloovas.

And I only need a million people to be a very successful company.

I love that line, some people.

It's so true, right?

You just need some people.

Yeah.

And I want people, I want my people.

I don't want.

the people who don't want to listen and don't want to, you know, they're not willing to educate themselves and they're still stuck in the old mentality.

They're not my people.

They're not.

And

I don't even pretend to want to convince them to come over to my side.

I want to talk to people that want to listen.

I totally agree with you.

But I'm wondering, what do you think it is about you?

Because a lot of people can talk stuff and like people don't listen, right?

Like obviously they're listening to you.

Like at the beginning of everything, like you did the letter, I mean, the newsletter, like what was the quality that you think got to build a community in the first place, right?

Because even though you were an early adopter, why else do you think that you had the success that you did?

I mean, I think it was real authenticity.

We did research and we didn't make outlandish claims without at least backing it with research.

But I mean, I was one of the early guys, you know, fat is not bad.

Saturated fat's not the reason for heart disease.

Cholesterol is not

the bad guy people think it is.

And people appreciated that I stuck with a lot of that over the years.

I changed my mind in some areas.

They appreciate that I changed my mind mind in the face of new evidence or new information.

Are you a big smoothie guy?

No, never.

Really?

Yeah, because it's like that's another one of these big trends that are, do you think it's a myth that they're so healthy for you?

No, it's a myth.

Yeah, I would say, I would say, you know, it's a convenient way to get calories in.

Great.

I'd rather eat my calories.

I'd rather...

chew and crunch and get the mouthfeel and get the experience.

And one of the things, again, we talked about like, when is it time to finish eating?

Well, when I've had the full gustatory experience and I'm no longer hungry for the next bite, if I'm slamming down a 20-ounce smoothie and I, you know, in my mind, it's like, okay, this is a, there's an intention behind completing the consumption of this smoothie.

So I'll just, whether or not I'm any thirstier or hungrier, I'm going to, I'm going to finish it.

Yeah.

And it's where you lose, you lose touch with the reality of like, when is it time to stop for the smoothie?

And, you know, I don't, a lot of people live by their smoothies.

They have a, you know, breakfast smoothie and a lunch smoothie.

Yeah, it's very popular.

Do you ever go to Sun Life Organics?

For a $20 smoothie?

Yeah, I'm just saying for the billionaire smoothie.

And Khalil's a good friend of mine.

And I'm like,

I cannot.

It's the principle alone that I will not allow me to do that.

Like, if I can go to Mastros and get a steak for the same price, it's like Aero One.

Yeah.

Right?

Like, Arrow One is like a $25 smoothie.

Me and my girlfriend laugh.

We went there last night because we had dinner.

I had dinner with my friend.

And we walked to Aero One.

And I very rarely do this because it insults my intelligence.

$47

for my dinner, which was a little thing.

I had kelp noodles and some sweet potatoes and a little salmon bite that was like this big.

Anywhere else in the world, it would have been a $9.99 dinner.

$47.

I thought I was like, I couldn't believe it.

I could not believe the audacity that they have.

And the place is full.

You can't.

Oh, my son ate there last night.

We brought something home from Erewhon last night.

Same thing, yeah.

And like the audacity, and the people are like standing in line.

Like, you think they're giving something away.

By the way, I didn't mean to disc Sun Life and Khalil because he's done conditioning.

No, he's done a great job, and he's a great friend of mine.

But I just thought there's an example of like, and I don't even care what the price is on it.

It's just that amount of sugar, you know, dates and whatever.

Do you remember Jamba juice?

Of course.

Okay.

It's basically a fancier Jamba juice with like, you know, organ, the word organic and some healthier things, but you can still OD on healthy foods with calories and sugar juice, especially juice.

100%.

Like these are all just fancy Jamba juices.

No, we in the Primal Blueprint, which came out, written in 2009, came out in 2010, one of the opening scenes is, you know, going to Jama Juice.

Yeah.

The Cindy Corg getting getting off the spin bike and going to Jama Juice and having 200 grams of sugar to replenish the, you know, the one gram that she actually burned off.

She actually burned off.

It's so true.

It's so crazy.

I mean, anyway, I know that

we've been going on and on.

I don't know how long this podcast is, but I have to say that I am going to try these shoes.

I am going to walk together.

Oh, trust me.

And I'm going to make sure you send me those so we both can like, you know, follow up on each other.

And where do people like find more information about you?

Okay.

So, you know, Mark's Daily Apple is the blog, been around for a long time.

Can they go to craft.com for that?

No, no, no, no, no, no.

It's Mark's Daily Apple.

And Wear Paloova, W-E-A-R-P-E-L-U-V-A.

is the Instagram site for the shoes.

And then paluva.com is where they can buy the shoes.

Buy shoes.

Well, this is great.

Would you come back on the podcast sometime next time you're in LA?

Of course.

This was amazing.

I want to.

I would say, let's work out together, but you don't run anymore.

You don't do all, I don't have a fat bike, so unfortunately, I guess we'd have to do deadlifts or something.

Yeah, like a deadlift or something.

Exactly.

This has been so fun.

I really appreciate being on the podcast.

And I think we're, I'm, you're done.

We can, you can go home now.

Thanks, Jennifer.

Thank you.