Episode 203: Sal Di Stefano, Part 3 - Host of Mindpump Podcast, an Author, and Fitlosopher

All right, guys, we made it.

We made it to 2023.

Happy New Year!

This is going to be the best one yet.

I'm not a big person in these new year resolutions because I don't ever believe in waiting till January 1st.

I believe in starting right away.

Finally, my book, Bigger, Better, Bolder, has been out now for probably a week.

And I want to say thank you to everybody who pre-ordered it because it debuted at number one in business.

And I'm just so grateful and thankful for you guys.

I really do believe that we all can be more bold and show up in our life in a real way with a little introspection, a little self-awareness, and we can design whatever we want for ourselves.

I believe in creating a rich life and that's not just money you guys.

That's about relationships, meaningful relationships, meaningful experiences.

Now if we're not born being bold, you can learn being bold.

I have a workbook in the back of the book so it keeps people accountable and you see yourselves getting bolder by doing these little bold moves.

So we are not just acquiescing to a good enough life, but we're actually

really going after and chasing the life we want.

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Here's to 2023, everyone.

Let's make it the best one yet.

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins.

You're listening to Habits and Hustle, Gresham.

All right, you guys, we are starting 2023 off strong.

All right, our first January episode is with one of my favorite people, one of the hosts of Mind Pump podcast, Sal DiStefano.

Now, when I say

we're starting strong, I mean both literally and figuratively.

This guy is just a wealth of knowledge in the fitness space.

I mean, you can't really ask him anything that he doesn't like go down in the weeds, deep, deep down.

I mean, the guy is so well researched and so knowledgeable.

I love, love having him on the podcast.

This is now going to be his probably third time on, but he's a very good friend of Habits and Hustle.

I'm a very good friend of Mind Pump.

I am so excited for you guys to listen to this podcast.

We cover everything: fitness, nutrition, supplements, and everything in between.

Enjoy.

Leave me a review.

Let me know what you think.

And here we go.

This is a very interesting episode.

I'm doing a podcast with one of my favorite people, Sal Destiny.

Well, I think I've had you on like, what, three times?

I think so.

Is this going to be the third time that I've been on your show?

This will be the third time I've been on this show.

Yes.

And I'm looking at your book, but I would have you on regardless.

But so

Sal is one of, I guess, four.

He's a quarter of Mind Pump.

Yes.

And

if you saw him,

he actually looks like Wolverine.

Oh, my God.

And we're going to get right into that.

But I have to say, this is, before I even go right into that, like what you look like, if people are just listening, he looks like Wolverine at its height.

I'm actually using the Mind Pump Studio.

So this is incredible.

I love the studio.

I can get really used to this really fast.

This is that unbelievable studio.

And it's basically habits and hustle

in the Mind Pump Studio, which I think I'm going to, like I said, I think I'm going to do this more often.

We can do this like maybe monthly or bi-monthly.

Oh, you're always, you're always welcome here.

Yeah.

One of our favorite people.

100%.

Well, thank you.

I can bring other guests in here and use your maybe.

We'll talk about it.

Doug, will that be okay for you?

Yeah, we can talk.

Yeah, okay.

I love that.

That's like basically like blowing me off.

All right.

It's okay.

It's okay.

I get it.

Just fine.

Just kidding.

Yeah, it's okay.

But anyway, so I walk in because I was doing an episode on Mind Pump and now we're swapping and now Sal's going to be doing an episode of Habits and Hustle.

I see you and I was blown away, as usual, because you are so ripped.

You would, it's shocking that you're in your 40s.

It's shocking.

You look better than any 21-year-old ever.

Oh man.

So thank you.

I'm like super blushing right now.

No, you're on like the we said you're probably on like the Liver King diet.

For those of you who don't know, Liver King got busted for being taking like he's this guy who only eats liver

and he was busted for recently for

steroids and drinking

HGH for $20,000 or

$15,000 worth of HGH a month.

And I think you do it, like, you do it naturally.

Yeah, mostly.

I've been on testosterone replacement therapy for two years.

So when I was younger, I got into fitness for a lot of the same reasons a lot of people do, right?

I had a lot of insecurities about my body and wanted to change how I looked.

And that led me to some unhealthy practices.

And that's, you know, kind of the journey through fitness, right?

When you first get into it, I think a lot of people do it for vanity reasons or insecurities.

But if you stick to it long enough, you start to develop better relationships, or you have to, right?

Or you'll end up hurting yourself.

Well, in my maybe late 20s, during this time, there was like this gray market in the supplement space for what they used to call pro-hormones, but they weren't.

They were actually designer steroids.

I didn't know this at the time.

I just knew that they worked, but they called them pro-hormones.

And I took them and they worked.

And I think that period of time might have done some damage to my hormone system.

So once I hit like late 30s, early 40s, I started noticing just like just changes.

Like I just, my energy was low.

I wasn't feeling good.

And then consider I'm a fitness expert.

So I've been working out.

I eat right.

I get good sleep.

I take the right supplements.

I was optimizing everything.

But I was just kind of not feeling like myself.

And I was telling my wife, like, I don't feel like myself.

I don't know what's going on.

But I never really got my hormones tested because my libido was okay.

So I always thought low testosterone meant libido would be in the tank.

Well, my libido was okay.

So I never thought, well, maybe my testosterone is low.

So I just kind of went along with that.

Well, anyway, we, you know, because of the podcast, Mind Pump, lots of companies approach us wanting to work with us.

And we've been getting these hormone replacement

facilities wanting to work with us because this is a big issue now, especially with men.

Testosterone levels have been declining for decades.

Testosterone replacement therapy is becoming more and more, I guess, ubiquitous.

It's something that you're seeing more men actually need because their levels are low.

And so these companies kept approaching us and we kept turning them down because we weren't really interested.

Well, one of them said, hey, we'll give you guys free hormone tests just so we can talk with you guys.

And so we said, what the hell?

I haven't got my hormone levels checked ever.

So let's go do this.

So we all got our hormone levels checked.

And to my surprise, it was actually quite devastating.

My numbers came back super low.

How low?

My total testosterone was 247.

So to give you an example, the range of what would be considered normal is like from 300 to 1,000.

Okay.

Now here I am, work out, lift weights, eat right, get good sleep, try to optimize everything.

And my levels were so low that a general practitioner would even put me on testosterone.

It wasn't like they were kind of low.

It was like out of range.

Were you muscle?

Were you still at that point, were you still able to build muscle?

I mean, I had this base of muscle that I had built.

Remember, I had been lifting weights since I was 14.

So, I mean, I was definitely stronger than the average person.

I had optimized everything else.

By the way, this goes to show just how much you can optimize your life through other means because I was still functioning.

I was still doing work.

I definitely didn't feel like myself, but you know, I was able to do, you know, to live my life.

Well, anyway, when that number came back, I was super devastated.

Called my wife.

I was so upset.

I'm like, how can this be?

Like, I do all this stuff.

I work out.

I,

you know, so I, you know, I talked to the doctor.

I tried changing things to see if it could affect it, but I'd already been doing everything right, I guess, and it didn't really budge too much.

And because I'd already been, you know, I'm already in my, I'm already 40 at the time.

I'd already had my kids or whatever, I said, you know what?

Low testosterone is really bad for your health.

I've already done all the stuff that I can do to optimize my testosterone.

It's still low.

At this point, if I don't supplement with exogenous testosterone, I'm actually going to, I could potentially suffer consequences like higher rates of heart disease, cancer, you know, dementia, that kind of stuff.

So I went on testosterone replacement therapy.

So I've been on that now for the last few years.

And through the facility I work with, now they work with us

as a company.

I've also tried peptides, which is a very interesting

segment.

Going on testosterone or peptides?

The peptides.

Peptides are interesting.

So I tried,

there's a few of them that I tried.

Oh, wait, wait, wait.

What's your testosterone now, by the the way, now being?

Oh, so when I do my testosterone injection, it'll peak up to like 120, 1300.

And then by the time the next injection is to come around, I'm down to like 600, 500.

So I'm within that, I stay within that range.

The problem with taking exogenous testosterone is it, it, it's

exotic, what is that?

From outside the body, right?

So it's not my own.

Is it bioidentical, though?

I mean, molecularly identical.

It's not from a human cadaver.

It's synthetic, but it's identical to testosterone.

Well, because they always talk about bio-identical is the best versus another kind.

So I don't know much about that.

I don't think they do that with testosterone.

I do know that there's markets for that with like progesterone and estrogen, I believe.

But I'm not super versed on it, so I don't want to comment too much because I don't want to mislead anybody.

Well, no, I'm because what I want, I think this is a very hot topic because of hormones in general are super hot topic.

And

you're a great person to talk to about this because I have questions about myself.

However,

which I find interesting is someone like you, like you said, who's optimizing everything that you would have a higher level of testosterone and you still don't, what does that mean?

What are the factors that you think are environmentally potentially lowering that testosterone?

Well, for me,

the best clue that I have is that that period of time and I'd say my late 20s when I was using over-the-counter designer steroids.

Yeah, is that that what you were saying?

Yeah, so these were, again, they were marketed as pro-hormones.

A real pro-hormone is like DHEA, right?

It's a hormone that through three or four steps can be turned into other hormones.

Steroids are

derivatives of testosterone that act directly on the androgen receptor.

Okay, so testosterone, then there's steroids that are molecularly changed to be maybe less androgenic, more anabolic, or have different characteristics.

So you'll see like steroids that are better for endurance, some are better for power, muscle growth, that kind of stuff, right?

So what they did during this period of time in the supplement space was at the time we had laws that made selling steroids illegal.

However, the way that they specified what was illegal was they were very specific.

So what supplement companies did, which was very smart, I guess from a business standpoint, is they went back and they went to pharmaceutical companies that researched steroids that then decided not to bring them to market.

Because they'd have never been put on market, because they were never really technically available, they were never explicitly made illegal.

So these companies were allowed to sell them in this kind of gray market and they marketed them as design as pro hormones with names like super droll,

methyl one testosterone, halidrol.

Like I'm naming a few of these, right?

But now I know they were actually steroids that I bought over the counter.

And they worked, of course.

And so I think that that might have damaged my hormone system.

And it didn't show up until I hit about 40 or started getting to 40.

And I don't think that would have happened had I not done that.

Because again, I lead a healthy fit lifestyle.

Well, I'm only asking, I'm asking for a lot of people because I think it's

one of these questions that people are asking themselves a lot that they're, why are they not gaining like why are they not their workout and they're not getting the lean muscle mass that they would or their or their libido or whatever it is especially in your 40s right

and um and also me too by the way so like i i lift weights i do all these things and my testosterone is very low do you think there's a difference for a woman or a man um so so this is kind of an interesting topic because there's a range of of what's considered normal.

Right.

Then there's what's best for you.

That's partially based off of your symptoms and how you feel.

And that could be based off of things like androgen receptor density.

So like you could be a man with lower testosterone, but have such high androgen receptor density that that lower testosterone is acting like higher testosterone.

Or you could be a man who is his normal levels of testosterone were really high.

Then they go down.

They're still not so low that you would be qualified as low testosterone, but they're lower than what they normally are.

So you're not feeling like you used to.

But I do want to be very clear before we continue, because I don't want to give the wrong idea.

Hormones usually are reflection of your health.

Okay.

So if you improve your health, you tend to

get a balanced, healthy hormone profile.

And what you don't want to do is mask.

poor health or mask symptoms through taking hormones.

So like, let's say I was getting shitty sleep or I had a crappy diet or I was overtraining or I didn't work out and I had low testosterone.

And then I go take testosterone, like, yeah, I'll start to feel better, but I'm not really fixing the root cause and my health isn't going to necessarily improve.

In my circumstance, I was doing everything right and it was the testosterone itself was the issue.

But I also want to be clear, when you take, when you go on testosterone replacement therapy, it's not exactly the same as your normal natural hormones.

Not because the hormone isn't the same, but just, you know, when you take an injection of testosterone, which is how most men will take it,

your levels go up very quickly in 24 to 48 hours peak, and then they slowly start to decline until your next injection.

Testosterone levels don't work like that naturally.

A man's testosterone tends to peak in the morning, drop a little bit at night.

It goes higher, sometimes lower at other times.

Because I'm on exogenous testosterone, if I lose sleep or I do something

that's not good for my health, my testosterone is still going to be high.

Or at the end of the week, it's going to be low because I have to wait for my next dose of testosterone.

So

basically the message I'm trying to say here is ideally, you want to do things the right, the natural way.

Ideally, you want to be healthy, you want to be fit, and then you want your hormones to reflect that.

In the event that that's not happening, then Western medicine can really provide you with some good answers because what you don't want is you don't want to be a healthy, quote-unquote, healthy male, also have low testosterone, because that low testosterone now by itself can cause some health risk.

Just like with low thyroid or any other hormone.

So do you think over-training can lower your

testosterone?

Oh, right away.

Yeah.

If you lose sleep,

there were some studies that I talked about on the show where I think two nights of bad sleep can lower testosterone like 30%.

Over-training, too much stress can lower testosterone.

More too much cardio.

Can cardio wreak havoc on someone's body as they age?

Definitely.

Yeah, lots of any type of exercise, too much exercise in general, lots of cardiovascular exercise

can lead to lower testosterone because it tends to tell the body to pare muscle down to make you a more efficient cardio machine.

So if you want like lots and lots of like long distance endurance, you don't necessarily want a lot of muscle.

You want to kind of be light and you want muscles that aren't strong but have a lot of stamina.

And so what you'll find is when you when you're pushing towards lots of endurance and stamina, let's say you do do lots of long distance running your body will organize its hormones to make you better at endurance running and that usually looks like lower testosterone levels so do you would you say then probably endurance athletes and like people who do these ultra marathons marathons tons of long distance running would you say though that category of people probably do have a lower testosterone if they were to switch to uh strength training more strength training less of that long distance type of training then you would see typically their testosterone levels rise because they're telling the body to build muscle through the strength training.

Also, we have to be careful because when we talk about

extreme athletes or high-level athletes, when you're training for high performance, you're moving out of the realm of health, right?

Because there's health and then there's high performance.

So, like, you know, a pro basketball player is an incredible athlete, but they're not the picture of health.

Now, if you compare them to the average couch potato, they are,

No, it's such a, you know what?

That is so true, right?

Because then you're playing in a different category.

It's extreme.

It's extreme.

So nothing extreme is good for you.

No, not for longevity.

A lot for longevity.

No, no, I do.

Now there's some caveats here, right?

Which is life quality also and enjoyment.

So I...

The way that I personally train is I place much more, if not most of my emphasis on strength training and muscle building.

And know that there's things, there's, I could add more cardiovascular training.

I could add more mobility training to give me better longevity.

But because I enjoy it so much, there's also that life quality and satisfaction.

So it's like, it's like, you know, having the glass of wine.

Like, okay, it's.

is having, you know, some glasses of wine, is it great for my physiological health?

No, probably not, but sometimes it's okay for your psychological health and enjoying yourself in the moment.

So you also want to balance that out because you can get so extreme in the longevity sphere where you're like, you know, I eat very little.

I don't overstress my body.

I only do moderate exercise.

I don't argue with anyone.

I get no stress.

I don't do anything, you know, like outside of this little bubble.

So

it's definitely a nuanced conversation.

But yeah, if you're talking about extreme performance in any direction, you're not talking about longevity.

You've moved out of longevity and now you're definitely trading longevity for performance.

100%.

And there's a difference.

Well, I wanted to circle back.

I want to forget forget about the question I asked you about peptides.

Yes.

How do you think,

what are peptides to people who don't know,

can you try, is peptides in a replacement of like a testosterone hormone?

What do they do for you?

So peptides

are not,

they don't replace your hormones.

Peptides cause

they can cause hormonal or biochemical actions in the body.

Like stimulation?

Yes, they are designed to act on certain receptors.

So like, for example, ibutamorin is a ghrelin agonist.

So it mimics the hormone ghrelin.

Why would you want to do that?

Well, because then it stimulates growth hormone.

So taking ibutamorin will raise your growth hormone levels.

Does it actually work?

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Here's another great market, by the way.

You can go online

and buy peptides and then administer them yourself.

at your own risk.

I do not think that's a good idea.

These have real effects in the body.

You need to work with a doctor, a physician who does your blood work, who tests you.

For example, if you do like a growth hormone releasing peptide and you think, oh, it's a peptide I bought online.

What's the big deal?

It's not actual growth hormone, right?

You could still affect insulin sensitivity, right?

You could still potentially give yourself problems because too much growth hormone can cause insulin insensitivity, right?

And if you're predisposed to like prediabetes, then you probably don't want to take those types of peptides, right?

There's this whole category of peptides that are really interesting, or there's a whole slew of peptides that are really interesting.

I've messed with a few of them for the podcast's sake, just to be able to talk about them.

For example, there's one called, this one's a funny one.

It's called PT141, I think is the name of it.

Oh, I don't know that one.

I know 127.

BPC157, I think.

That one's more for recovery.

Healing your joints and stuff like that.

There's another one that everyone was taking, like Joe Rogan, take like a bunch of them for

CJC.

Yeah, CJC.

127.

Yeah, something with 129 or something like that.

Something like that.

That raises growth hormone.

Yeah.

But does it work?

I took it for two weeks because my dog, like my,

I have a doctor friend.

He's like, try this.

It's amazing.

I thought I was like retaining water.

It will make you retain water.

Really?

I'm like, I'm getting fat.

Yeah.

Raising growth hormone will make you hold a little water for sure.

So that how is so this is not something that's a panacea for everybody number one.

No, that has real effects on the body.

But no, what I mean is,

are these things good for men, but not great for women?

It depends on the person.

I don't want to hold water.

Yeah, well, some people like holding a little water.

Like if you're trying to build muscle, some water retention is good.

You get better pumps, muscles contract harder, you increase your strength a little bit.

Some women

can't close your pants.

That was my side effect.

Well, some women like a little water retention because it makes their faces look fuller,

maybe not as gaunt, especially if they're super lean.

Makes your belly look bigger.

Maybe, right?

So, I mean, it depends.

And I don't, you know, I like to do self-experimentation.

I don't do any of this without

my doctor looking at certain things.

And I do part of this for the podcast.

Would I recommend this to clients?

Here's what I would say to a client.

Like, how's your diet?

How's your exercise?

How's your sleep?

Like, if those things aren't great, like, don't, don't waste your time,

you know, messing with this kind of stuff because it's not going to really help you.

But some of them are interesting.

Like the one I was telling you, PT-141,

it was designed to act like melanin.

And so melanin, I think I'm saying it right, is the hormone that darkens your skin.

So if you inject this, you could get, you get like a little bit of a tan over time without having to go out in the sun.

What?

That's what it was made for.

The side effect of it was a libido boost, especially in women.

So how do you think they market this peptide?

How?

To women for libido boost.

Hold on a minute.

Is that really true?

That's what the literature says.

And i've ex i tried it and it definitely works it does it did for me i know adam messed with a little bit he said it worked for you know for katrina um so it's i mean it's fun interesting stuff i should try that i want to try it you so look into it again what's it called i think it's pt141

i think is the name of it but you want to work with a doctor and make sure and again these are all like and so basically you it raises your libido but it's supposed to like make you look tanned over time that's the reason why it was originally developed.

That's like a lot of these things.

Like, do you know about Ozempic?

No, what is that?

You don't know what about, oh my God, I'm going to school you, my dear.

What is it?

So Ozempic is

a drug that it's basically this two.

It's Wagovi and

Ozempic.

And it's a diabetes drug, but

it's become a craze in Hollywood and in

life for weight loss.

People are losing an exorbitant amount of of weight.

Does it suppress your appetite?

It basically gives you that feeling of being full.

It's basically like it,

you're not able to eat as much because you're full.

Now, a lot of the side effects are nausea, headaches,

diarrhea, or constipation.

There's so many side effects, but the results are people are losing a lot of weight.

And it's based on this one thing.

It's called,

what's the drug?

It's the same.

Ozempic is the same as a Wagovi,

the main thing in it.

There's one drug right now that's being marketed for.

Yeah, no, you must know it.

Hold on a second.

I invested in a company that actually makes that drug.

Is this Samarillin?

Samarolin.

Yeah.

I think that might be it.

Yeah.

What's like I say, I'm going to look it up to make sure that I'm not wrong here.

Okay.

The main thing in it is,

no, semaglutide.

Oh, sematoglutide.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Semaglutide.

Sorry, Samarilin was something else.

You're right.

Yeah, yeah.

And so

it's become like a crate.

Everyone's talking about it.

So it literally is a diabetes drug to like kind of balance out your insulin.

And everyone's a lot, a lot of people, I didn't say everyone.

And it's a lot of controversy over it.

You know what?

I'm always very careful when I talk about this stuff because,

you know, I've been doing this for so long, Jen.

I've been.

training myself since I was a kid, training other people for a long time too.

So I've been, you know, I trained clients and, you know, I ran gyms and I trained trainers for almost two and a half decades.

And I understand that the benefits, the real benefits you get from exercise are not the cosmetic effects.

Right.

The vanity.

Oh, yeah.

So you get, and yes, there's health benefits and all that stuff, but really how you feel, your psyche, the journey and the process is where you gain some of the benefits.

And so like, even if they invented a pill that gave you all the physical results of exercise, you still wouldn't get the benefits, the same benefits of exercise.

So even if you could take a pill and, oh, I'm rich, but I don't have to work out or do anything.

You still are, it's like, it'd be like being dropped off on the top of Mount Everest.

You know, you didn't climb it.

You got a nice view.

Yeah, exactly.

But it's not the same.

So I'm always very careful.

Plus, also,

when I'm careful to talk about this stuff, because people think even steroids, even anabolic steroids, okay?

And we know how powerful they are.

They're banned in every athletic organization and whatever.

When you look at anabolic steroids effects versus hard work, exercise, eating right, getting good sleep, discipline, throwing some genetics in there, steroids is like 3%.

It's like 3% compared to all this other stuff.

So supplements, peptides, all these other things, they can be beneficial when added to a formula that's really good and balanced and working.

They're enhancers, that's what it is.

Yes.

Otherwise, they don't do a whole lot.

It's like the average person listening right now who's struggling to lose 20 or 30 pounds or the guy who's like, man, I have no energy.

I don't feel good or whatever.

And they're listening right now.

Like the answer isn't not in any of the stuff that we're talking about.

No, I agree.

That's fine.

I think to me, the way that is like, that's fine tuning or enhancing sometimes.

But this is what I want to, this is what I want to talk to you about.

Because I could tell you, by the way, not to interrupt you, but I could tell you specifically what the differences were between low testosterone and high testosterone, because nothing else changed for me.

I exercise like I did before.

My diet is still good like it was before.

Sleep is good.

All this stuff is the same.

The only difference is I went from low testosterone to high testosterone.

I can tell you exactly what the difference is.

What it is.

But 11 pounds of muscle, and I'm burning about six to 700 more calories a day because of the added muscle.

So that's a faster metabolism.

But that's it.

So about 11 pounds of muscle.

That's it.

That's a lot.

It sounds like a lot, right?

But I'm a big guy.

So 11 pounds is like, for me, it's like I go from 200 to 211.

Okay.

So.

Yeah, but look at your muscle mass and your lean muscle math.

I mean, you don't have, it's like you're defined.

So this is what I was going to say.

You're like, you're, you're in a different category because you know what you're doing.

You're optimizing everything.

I want to talk about the most, like a lot, most people,

let's say they have 10 pounds to look.

Most people as, you know, in middle age or when they, you know, people who are just naturally or they are taking care of themselves, they are working out.

They are watching what they eat.

They're doing all the basics, right?

And they still have 10 pounds, five, 10 pounds.

To me, that's the hardest.

That's the hardest part to lose.

That's the hardest part to focus on.

I think it's easier when you have 30 pounds to lose, right?

Because and you're not doing everything right.

It's for the people who are doing everything right and they still can't lose that last 10 or they've gained it because of circumstance, like just life, you know, age, whatever.

What kind of advice or what can people do to fine-tune and to kind of tweak their lifestyle habits to lose that last five or 10 years?

That's a really good question

because I know,

you know, I've worked with lots of clients and that is a really frustrating position to be in because it's not like, like you said, like, oh, I got to lose 30 pounds.

I'm not exercising.

I'm eating like garbage.

It's like, I'm doing all this stuff.

Why?

And really doing this stuff.

Yeah.

Not lying to you.

What's going on?

There's two ways to look at this or two avenues you could look at in terms of the solution for this.

One is to work harder at what you're doing.

And the other one is to work smarter at what you're doing.

In this particular scenario, now, if I'm talking to the average person who's not exercising, it's work harder.

Like, all right, get up and move, right?

You're not doing anything.

We're not talking about that person.

When I'm talking about this person, the answer is almost never to work harder.

They're already doing that.

They're already pushing.

In fact, they've probably already pushed that button to work harder so many times and are frustrated because they're getting minimal results.

It's almost always they're not efficient enough.

They're not effective enough with the time that they are spending working out, or they're not effective enough with their, with their diet or their sleep, or there's a piece that's missing there.

And it usually, it usually is their workout.

Usually what they're doing with their workout is they're they're doing more and more and more, trying to burn more and more and more calories.

And they're not focused enough on teaching their body to burn more calories calories on its own.

They're not focused enough on, it's like this.

It's like, okay, I'm making so much money.

Okay.

And I'm working 60 hours a week and I want to become wealthy.

Do I work 100 hours a week?

Okay, now what?

Now I'm stuck.

How do I keep making more money?

Or I could say, is there a way I could take the money that I'm making and invest it in a way so that it makes more money for me?

So that's how you want to think when you're at this point.

When you're at this point here where you've got that last 10 pounds and you're doing all this work, don't think, how much more can I do?

think how can i do this in a way that's much more effective and one of the most effective possible things you could do uh especially when it comes to getting leaner is to build some muscle build some muscle because muscle is money in it's like it's like it's like invested money it it burns calories for you it makes the fat loss easier because it speeds up your metabolism so typically when i look at somebody's routine i'll take their total workout and i'll say okay how much time are you devoted to workouts that don't build muscle?

Let's take that away.

Let's devote it more towards building muscle.

Or maybe you're working out so much that your body can build muscle because you're overtraining.

And let's cut some of that, give your body some rest, feed you a little bit more protein, and see if we can build some muscle.

And then what happens is you start to get compounding effects.

Okay, so Sal said, I'm, you know, I'm working out five days a week, but four days a week of his running, one day a week is lifting weights.

He said, lift the weights three days a week and only run twice a week.

Yeah, let me do that.

Okay,

nothing's happening yet, but I'm feeling stronger.

I'm feeling stronger.

Oh, wait a minute.

I think I'm starting to get leaner.

Oh, wow.

Look, this is starting to accelerate.

As the muscle comes on the body, you get the compounding effects of getting leaner.

So in those cases, it's almost, that's just one example.

And I gave you the example that's the most common, I would say.

But in most cases, I'll look at someone's workout and they're either doing too much or they're doing the wrong kind of workouts.

And in which case, I'll either scale it back or change their workouts to make them more

efficient, more time-efficient.

More efficient.

But that goes back to the whole thing that you said earlier, right?

Like you're going to do the thing you like the most, and the things you don't like, you're not going to want to do.

So it's about quality of life, too, right?

Yes.

If someone's someone who doesn't love to lift heavy weight and they really love tennis and dancing and cardio, right?

They're going to go do that.

So it's better to do that than to something that you app or than versus doing nothing.

Well, you're, you're, what you're talking about, I think, is the best answer, which is, you know,

we get this question sometimes.

It's like,

you know,

I haven't found a career that I love, or how do I, because, you know, people will say, oh, you guys love what you do so much.

Like, the key is to do what you love.

That way, you never work a day in your life.

No, no, no.

The key is to learn how to love what you do.

That's the key.

Like, if you can do that,

then you're, then you're doing great.

So, in this particular example, okay, I want to lose this this last 10 pounds, but I love dance.

And that's how I work out.

And Sal says I need to lift more weights, but I don't want to lift more weights.

I like to do dance.

Learn to love your body the way it is.

You know, it's the, you know, I want my cake and eat it too type of deal.

Like, I get that.

I get that we want everything.

But I think many times, and again, especially in this category of people that we're talking about, because I think fitness fanatics in this category can be especially harsh with their self-criticisms.

Many times, I can't tell you how many times, Jen, people are like, Oh, I can't lose that extra 10 pounds.

And I look at them and I'm like, You look amazing.

I don't think you see what other people see.

I think you might be a little harsh on yourself.

Like, learn to love and accept the body that you have, and learn to love and accept the way that you enjoy working out.

And okay, so you don't have an extra quarter inch on your arms if you're a guy, or you don't have that.

Fine, you're not, you know, 15% body fat, but maybe you're, you know, 17%,

but you're doing all this amazing stuff.

Like, you know, I think it's probably better long-term for long-term happiness, which is, I mean, what else could you possibly want, but that, right?

To just be happy with what you're doing and the way you look.

Easier said than done, speaking.

Like, look at you, right?

Like, we, you're, uh, you know, why I shake my head when you say that?

Yeah.

Let me ask you this.

You're in the fitness space.

Okay.

You know our space very well.

Some of the most fit-looking, ripped people,

you probably find some of the hardest, most challenging body image issues.

I want to say that that's why I'm asking these questions for a friend.

No,

I love that.

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I feel like we are the hardest and most critical, you know, like because

you've trained so much that you notice every nuance and see every imperfection.

But most people aren't in the category of fanatical fitness people, right?

Where it's like you and I, where we do it a lot, we've been doing it for our whole life.

And so we notice, we notice this, this, this nook, this cranny, how this can be better, how this.

I'm talking about people who maybe not at that level, even maybe above average in like in like activity, who are struggling, who are doing all the weightlifting and who are doing all those things and still not getting a result that they want

how much of it is not training just on nutrition are there like key factors people should be focusing on that that they're not be like i i'm a big like you i believe in protein is super important for building

building muscle what's your take on uh

protein that's not animal protein and what some key tricks that people can do on the on the nutrition side that can help with fat loss.

You know, okay, so nutrition is a great topic because it's by far

the most nuanced and that's got the greatest degree of individual variance.

And here's why.

First off, now there are some general truths with diet.

So I don't want to be like, it's all up in the air.

No, no, there's some general truths and we'll get to those.

When we're talking about nutrition and diet,

let's kind of dive into why it's so nuanced and such, and there's such a massive individual variance.

Well, number one,

biologically, we're all very different.

I have a microbiome that's quite unique to my body.

Physiologically, I don't necessarily react and respond to food the same way as the next person.

Like something, so I may eat something that maybe affects my digestion poorly, whereas for them, it feels okay, or maybe it causes a spike in insulin with me, but to the next person, maybe not so much.

Maybe a food gives me a little bit more energy, gives them a little less energy.

This one makes me a little more full.

Maybe for this other person, it doesn't work so well for satiety.

So there's all that.

But then let's add in a huge factor, which is the psychological effects and attachments and connections to food.

Like what is food?

Yeah, it's proteins, fats, carbs, and calories.

Is that all that food is?

Like,

what's the top 10 reasons why people eat have nothing to do with fueling their body with proteins, fats, and carbs?

It has usually to do with enjoyment, celebration, mourning, anxiety,

stress, boredom, emotional.

Boredom's a big one.

Yes.

It could be, I eat this food because traditionally this is what I ate when I was a kid and I have attachment to this particular thing.

Or I don't like that because one time I got sick and now I don't like it anymore when I eat that or whatever, right?

So Food is extremely complex

when you connect it to the person.

Okay.

And you have to consider that when you're trying to talk about what's going to work best for me, what's going to be the best diet for me.

Now, I can talk about what studies say.

It's true that protein

produces the most satiety in the body, meaning it'll fill you up the fastest and keep you full the longest.

So it's really good for maintaining your calories.

Protein is essential, meaning you have to consume it.

Your body can't make essential amino acids.

You have to eat them.

Fat is also essential, meaning there's certain essential fatty acids you have to consume.

Otherwise,

you'll fail to thrive.

Carbohydrates, not essential.

You never have to eat a single carbohydrate.

That doesn't mean that's ideal, though.

Carbohydrates need to be consumed by a lot of people to have an ideal diet to give them the best energy and the best feel and that stuff.

You don't want to overeat.

That's a general rule.

Eating too much of anything is bad for you.

In fact, eating the right amount negates many of the negative effects of certain foods.

So like sugar, if your calories are low, sugar doesn't have as bad of an effect, not nearly as bad of an effect on the body.

Same thing with certain fats.

You want to eat in a way to where you have, you develop a good relationship with food.

Like that's a general truth.

Like if you're constantly reaching for food to

blunt emotions, or if you're using food like a drug, okay,

or if you eat

mindlessly or without presence, that can be an issue, right?

And studies will show this.

Like if you eat food in front of the TV or in front of your phone, you'll consume like 10 to 15% more calories.

Absolutely.

Just on average.

It's also habitual, right?

Because you're used to eating this at that time.

You're used to eating this when you watch TV.

It's like changing those habits.

Yes.

This is going to fly.

I think this might be controversial, but I'll back it up.

I think it's very true.

Your body knows how to eat healthy.

It knows how to eat in a balanced, healthy way.

The problem is we're so disconnected from our bodies and we're so disconnected from understanding all of the values of food from an awareness standpoint that we don't know how to listen to those signals.

So the path to healthy eating starts with education.

Proteins, fats, carbs, calories,

what's the right amount for my body from this cognitive standpoint?

What's the right amount of protein?

And then from there, it's awareness.

What foods make me feel good?

Which ones give me the best digestion?

Which ones affect my skin the best?

Which ones make me feel good?

Which ones make me feel bad?

Which ones do I reach for when I'm anxious, sad, or stressed?

What foods are hard for me to stop eating?

Right.

Like bring awareness around that stuff.

And then you can start to develop a more intuitive style of eating where,

like for me, for example,

I crave well-cooked vegetables when my digestion is off.

Like I crave them.

And I didn't start that way.

It started with me becoming aware of my digestion's off.

If I eat well-cooked vegetables, it tends to fix my digestion.

And so I started doing that.

And then eventually I developed this behavior where that's what I want when my digestion is off.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's kind of the path towards sustainable, long-term, healthy eating.

And I will add one thing.

If you're looking for a body that looks good, you know, quote unquote, looks good,

just try to be healthy because chasing health results in a body that looks healthy and that usually looks good.

If you chase looking good, you'll oftentimes sacrifice your health, in which case then you stop, you stop looking good.

And you can see this with people who are body obsessed.

At some point, like they can't take enough substances, they can't do enough plastic surgeries and everything starts to fall apart or their health goes poorly, and then forget all the looks.

So it's really a good North Star, right?

It's a good guiding principle.

It's like, okay, how do I optimize my health with my food?

What does that mean?

I feel good.

I feel healthy.

I've got good digestion.

I sleep well.

My skin feels good.

I have good energy.

Like, if you kind of aim towards that, that'll point you in the right direction most of the time versus what's going going to make me look ripped?

What's going to make me look good?

Because that oftentimes that, you know, that body obsession tends to lead us towards sacrificing our health.

And then we end up with nothing.

Well, then how I, yeah, I agree with that.

I think I love that saying that you say, though, that's great.

When you chase health, you, you, that, you chase health, don't chase aesthetics.

Yeah, aesthetics.

And then the rest will follow kind of thing.

It does.

It's so true.

Yeah, it was just,

you know, it's a, you know what that, you know, what I really, really hit me as a, is it, well, it hit me as as a trainer because I was always a better trainer to my clients than I was to myself.

So I was really good with this with my clients before I really figured this out for me.

Right.

Well, yeah, because I mean, this is, I think, most people, right?

Like, like, you know, talk to therapists, right?

They're like really good with their patients and they have to be.

And then they have the most screwed up people ever.

Exactly.

It's like, you know, it's so true, though, right?

Like, whatever you're teaching is usually you're bad at it yourself.

Yeah, it's something you're working on yourself.

Yeah.

So I was a lot of trainers become trainers, by the way.

And that's why a lot of people get into the fitness business to your point.

100%.

So I was really good with my clients with this, and it just dawned on me.

It's like, oh my God, like when I get my clients to really want to be healthy, they get all the results they want and then they stick.

The results stick because they're valuing the health rather than the, just the appearance.

It also dawned on me when you look at like studies on why we consider certain things attractive.

Like, why do we consider...

healthy skin attractive.

Why is there a hip to waist ratio that we tend to universally find attractive?

Why do we find a shoulder to waist ratio in men that's attractive?

You know,

why is muscle more attractive than no muscle?

Why is a certain body fat percentage considered attractive versus too little body fat or too much body fat?

It's because it's all reflective of health.

Evolutionarily speaking, if you saw somebody,

these are the signals that you would get to tell you this person is healthy, is vibrant, is fertile.

I want to mate with them or whatever.

So they're just reflections of health.

Now we've perverted them all through, you know, plastic surgeries and

drugs and stuff like that.

It's on such a rise.

Do you know that you can't even, it's a rise like what, 10,000% plastic surgery, just based on the fact that I think even since COVID, because so many people are more obsessive or obsessing on how they look because all they were doing was looking at Zooms of themselves and social media and the filters.

So now people want to look like the filters.

And if they don't look like the filter, they think they're ugly.

It makes me sad.

I mean, I have kids, you know.

Yeah.

And it makes me sad because they're growing up in this, in this world.

And I suffered from body dysmorphia.

You know, like I said, that's why I started working out.

Do you think you still suffer from it?

Oh, yeah.

I don't think you get rid of it.

I think you get better with it.

I still.

I'm pretty sure I don't see myself the way that maybe other people do.

Yeah, because you always sound super surprised when I say, oh my God, you look so ripped.

You're so big, blah, blah, blah.

And it's like like you're like, what do you mean?

Like, you are one of these people that we're talking about.

I, I, 100%.

It's definitely something that I don't, I wouldn't say I struggle with anymore, but it's there.

I'm aware of it, right?

I'm aware.

I'm just aware about it.

Well, I'm just aware.

I'm aware.

Do you think you look good?

I think I'm comfortable.

I'm very comfortable in my skin.

So do I judge the way I look and say I look good or look bad?

If I go down that road, I think I could definitely that the body dysmorphia will definitely rear its head if I start to go down that.

So it's just more about being comfortable in my own skin, I guess.

But like, if you take your shirt off in the mirror, are you looking for every imperfection?

I used to.

Now,

no, not really so much.

I don't study myself like I used to.

You know, when I was a kid, it's like you look in the mirror, like, is this changing?

Is that changing?

What's this look like?

What's that look like?

Not, not really, not anymore.

Not studying it, but like, are you still like, you know, in your own, off of a podcast, let's say, or like in your own home are you ever like oh shit like i have a little bit on my love hand oh my god i had this happen like i'm doing it like are you hard on yourself don't lie don't that's a good question no no i'm thinking let me think about that for a second huh i think um i can be i'm sure i can be i haven't been in a while but i've been on a pretty good role so it's hard to say i haven't had any like situations where I haven't been able to work out for a long period of time and something like, you know, or so when you're consistently

uh habitually doing what you're supposed to you feel good yeah i do but i'm not sure which one comes first i think part of it is this the mental i okay so i this 100 will identify it's an exercise very much therapeutic for me for sure if i didn't exercise i'd be tough a tough person to to to be around me too yeah so it's definitely very therapeutic for me um i you know i know i i know it's there um but i think i'm better with it i know i'm better with it i'm definitely comfortable with my skin because because I identify more

less with my body and more with like what I do here on the podcast, with being a father and a husband.

You know what would bother me the most would be loss of function.

In other words, if I felt weak

or

if I felt like I couldn't do what I could do before, that would bother me more now.

than how I looked.

And I think it's because I know what that means.

Like, oh my God, I can't do that thing anymore.

What if I can't play with my kids?

Or what if I,

but look, here's the deal, Jen.

I'm going to have to deal with that at some point.

I can't, you know, we all get older.

If I'm, well, I should say, if I'm blessed to continue to get older, I'm going to have to deal with that as well.

So it's going to be like, it's, look, it's a constant game of acceptance.

Always.

A constant.

It never stops.

I was going to say, it's like the, also, the, the, when you know what you had, and then you see it, you see yourself losing it, you're like, what is going on here?

And then it becomes like this, you're chasing youth.

You're chasing perfection when you can't chase time.

It's fleeting.

You can't, you can't stop the clock, right?

So like this whole idea of longevity and biohacking your way to like youthfulness.

What is your take on it?

Like, do you think it's become, it's such an, it's become so extreme.

As long as it's coming from a healthy place.

It's not.

Let's be honest.

Yeah, that's the thing.

No one's doing it out of a healthy place.

People are trying to like slow down the clock and stop the aging process.

Yeah, if it's out of rejecting

the aging process,

I think that's a problem.

I agree with you.

I think if it's like, oh, like this is

going to help maintain my mobility, my independence, improve my quality of life.

But come on, how many people are really doing it for those reasons?

They're not.

I think Ben Greenfeld's doing it because he wants to have more mobility when he's 80.

I don't think so.

I know in our space, especially, I mean, I know in fitness in particular, not just health, but fitness in particular, the vast majority of people are doing it because they want to look good.

Right.

And because they're trying to,

you know, fill a hole, right?

Or there's an emptiness.

And I'm going to tell you right now, you're not going to find it.

You ain't going to find it until you learn to accept

yourself and accept, I guess, reality.

So it's just not going to happen.

If you use fitness in that way, fitness can become very dysfunctional.

Well, also,

do these quick fixes or whatever you want to call them actually work?

I mean, I don't know, I have the red light at my house.

I have a stone at my house.

I have a cold plunge at my house.

My house looks like a wellness spa.

Okay.

And I'm sure, like, you know, with your, the peptide and the testosterone and the supplements.

I mean,

at what, like, how much of this stuff is stuff that basically costs a lot of money and keeps basically it's making the economy trillions of dollars, right?

Because everyone's chasing youth.

Yeah, look, if you looked at a pie, you know, the pie represented 100,

all that stuff is like 1% or 2%.

That's the truth.

Right.

All the 99%

is your exercise, mindset, sleep, and diet.

Now, the question should be, how much of a difference can exercise, diet, sleep, and mindset make in your life?

Profound.

Profound.

It's the most powerful antidepressant known to man.

It's the most, this is by data, facts, okay?

It's the most powerful enzyolytic, right?

Anti-anxiety known to man.

It is a vehicle for personal growth.

If you follow it and you do it the right, for the right reasons, you learn acceptance, you learn discipline, you learn about the value of work and effort.

Acceptance because you accept your body for what it is because you ain't going to keep going forever.

Once you realize you ain't going to look like your favorite model, well, you keep going anyway and you accept that you you're your own person so it has profound effects but more so because it's a it's that journey that you're on um

and it can have those profound effects all that other stuff is cool and it can be fun but it's so small now the question is well why is it talked about all the time because they could sell that Yeah, of course.

It's actually something that they can think the funnel can send you there.

They can monetize it.

Or they can monetize it.

This is the thing.

What works isn't sexy, you know.

At the end of the day, the things that work are still the basics.

Yes, it's exercise, move more, sleep more, eat better.

Like these things, and these things have no price tag on it.

No, it's they're free.

No, and it's literally, and the data is very clear on this: proper exercise, good diet, good sleep, good spiritual practice.

I want to include that because the spiritual practice has been shown to be profoundly impactful on mental health and longevity.

Okay.

It's also shown and success of life, success of marriage, success as a parent,

just overall.

And then, you know, you could throw a mindset in there, I think, what you could probably throw in there.

But that's like it, right there.

I know that sounds like, oh, that's it.

Well, that's a lot.

And community, I think, too, is in there, too.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Relationships.

Thank you.

Or community, like peeping people around you.

Like, that's why, have you, you know, about the blue zones, right?

Yeah, I do.

And the people who live the longest are the ones who have like the deepest communities around them.

And And honestly, walking was the most important, best exercise by a landscape.

I agree.

I think walking's for a few different reasons.

One, most people can still walk.

And that means that

they don't have to like learn the technique and skill of it.

So the injury rate is low.

It's easy.

It's convenient.

And as a result, it's one of those things that people can do on a very consistent.

basis.

So no, walking is number, it's actually one of the best forms of exercise for those reasons.

And if you add something else to it, strength training, and then you've got,

and then you're good, but yet people don't want to hear that.

So, that's why then that's why a lot of these, like, these salesmen, you know, biohackers sell a shit ton and make a bazillion dollars because

they can't make money off of go walk outside or, you know, like go, you know, that doesn't, that doesn't sell.

People don't, and I guess, I guess my question is: what is behind the psychology of we all know psychologically and intuitively what works.

And yet we're still able to be tricked and or manipulated.

We want to be tricked.

I know we we want to we allow the manipulation.

Like I know, like we're having this conversation, right?

About what really works.

And like you and I have done it all.

We know it all.

And at the same time, I'm a sucker.

I'll go get that red light.

I'll go do that cold.

I'll go do all these things.

Like, why do we, why do we still behave and

go down those rabbit holes and those paths, even if we know better?

Yeah, well, you're, you're, you're an aficionado, right, with health and fitness.

So for you, it's probably more fun to try different things.

Yeah, besides that, like, for me also, I think for the average person, they want to be lied to.

They want to believe that their answer is in a drug or a device or a special diet,

you know, where they just don't eat this one thing or just eat this thing.

They want to believe it and they want to be fooled.

Because the other option requires

work,

time, right?

It takes work and time.

Now, here's the myth.

Here's the lie.

Here's the big lie, right?

The big lie is

doing it the right way is hard.

That's not correct.

Doing it the wrong way is harder.

Now, you might think it's not harder to sit on your couch, not move, or to eat whatever you want, or to to take some pills or whatever.

But the truth is, it's harder and you'll see.

You'll see how much harder it is to have poor health.

You'll see how much harder it is to not do that work.

Right.

They say choose your hard.

It's a myth.

It's totally a myth.

And the truth is, it's cheaper and easier to do things the right way.

It just takes

people willing.

to be uncomfortable, willing to grow and to change, because growth and change come from being uncomfortable.

That's all it takes.

It takes that.

So you have to be willing to do that.

And then when you do it and you do it consistently and you do it long enough and you go on this journey, you start to just gain all these tremendous, incredible benefits.

But you can't, I mean, I think people just, they want to believe in the lies because they don't want to take that step.

They also want to take the responsibility.

I think it's, it's,

you know,

it's like I could, somebody could sit there and say, wow, it's my fault.

It's my fault that I'm unhealthy.

Or they can be like, it's not my fault.

It's my genetics.

Or I just am not taking the right supplement, or oh, it's this thing that I'm not doing.

I got to go do this, you know, shine this light on me, and that'll make it happen.

That'll make it that will like lean me out, it'll improve my metabolism.

What do you think of

how much of it you think is genetics?

How much of it, how much can you trick your baseline?

So, when you think of genetics, think of it this way: think of a wide range of potential.

Okay, so like from let's say zero to a hundred your lifestyle determines where you fall on that scale your genetics determine where that scale is so like lebron james okay let's say uh for basketball skill the scale is uh zero to a thousand okay he was probably born with like 700 to a thousand was his range and mine's somewhere like a hundred to three hundred

right or maybe whatever right well i can get as good as 300 with hard work and effort and he can be as bad as 500 or whatever with doing no work and no effort.

So, yes, you have your genetics, but you also have this range that you can work within, and that's what your lifestyle

helps determine.

Now, my question to people who ask that is, who cares?

What are you going to do now?

Okay, you got your genetics

mean that you can't be super ripped or you're not going to be the strongest or the fastest person.

Okay.

Like,

that's what you got.

What are you going to do now?

Right.

That's the cards that were dealt to you.

Yeah.

How are you going to, how are you going to play the play that hand as best you can?

That's it.

Now it's up to you.

Now you got your potential.

Go work with your potential.

And I'm going to tell you something right now.

Hard work, discipline, effort, and growth

usually trumps genetics and talent.

Okay.

And I'm not talking about the extremes.

Yes, there's people who are like so talented, it's ridiculous.

But

I know way more

super talented losers

than,

you know, I know a lot of those people.

And I know people who are like not very talented, but through growth, effort, and work, made a lot out of themselves.

Yeah, you sound like me.

This is literally my book, by the way.

I say that all the time.

That

I know so many super smart dumbasses out there who are doing nothing.

And I know a bunch of dumbos who are like living the high life, having the best time, being super successful, and have everything they ever wanted.

You know what I mean?

Like,

I don't believe that you should just fall on that as your excuse for life of like, why, this is, this is the why.

No, it's a shitty way to live, man.

It's a sad, shitty way to live.

And, you know, look,

again, your choices are accept what you can't change and focus on what you can't, or dwell on the stuff that you can't change.

That's a prison.

Why would you want to be stuck there?

Look, you know, read books on POWs or people who've been through some really challenging things.

Read, you know,

there's some really, really good stuff out there.

And you'll read

age-old philosophies on this.

Stoicism talks about this as well.

It's like,

it's like,

even if the result were the same, even if the end result were the same.

versus with person A who focuses on the stuff that they can't change versus person B who focuses on what they can't change, the person who focuses on what they can change will feel different and better because they feel like they have some autonomy, like they have some control.

So regardless across the board, it's a better choice.

Now, I don't believe they'll end up in the same place at all.

I think we have so much evidence to show that if you focus on the things that you can change and ignore the stuff that you can't, you're going to turn out much better.

The evidence is clear on that.

But even if it wasn't, it's like you're going to feel, you're just going to feel much better.

So, and that's just, that's the, that's the road to success in anything.

It's definitely the road to success and fitness.

I could tell you right now, meeting with someone, if someone's going to have the right attitude for long-term fitness success versus failure.

And it's the difference between the person who comes to me is like,

everybody's overweight in my family.

There's nothing I can do.

It's my genetics.

I just like food too much.

This sucks.

I hate exercise versus the person that's like, hey, you know,

what can I do?

Let me try some different things.

I'm willing to learn.

I want to try making some changes.

I'm going to focus on the stuff

I can change and the stuff I can control.

Like that person is going to do well.

I agree with you.

My gosh.

It's like you're singing my song.

What's this?

I mean, I think I always, I'm still on this whole intermittent fasting, fasting thing with people.

Like, what is your take on this?

I mean, I find whenever something is super popular and has in a fad, you find out in five years from now, oh, actually, whoops, we were wrong.

It's actually the opposite effect on your body.

You know, like, what is you don't intermittent fast.

I can sometimes.

Do you sometimes?

Yeah.

I think fasting's benefits,

physiological benefits are massively overstated.

I think fasting's spiritual and behavioral benefits, okay, on the right person, can be profound.

Fasting has been present in every major religion for thousands of years for a reason.

They didn't do it for fitness or health or any of that stuff.

They did it for the spiritual aspects because it's detachment.

It's detachment from one of our most basic needs.

I think the value is there.

So unless you have an eating disorder like anorexia or bulimia or you have really dysfunctional eating, in those cases, you don't want to use fasting because that can turn into something really bad.

I think fasting from food can be profound because you grow up in modern society.

You have food around you all the time.

Not eating for two days, well, you'll have to face some demons.

You'll have to deal with certain emotions and ways that you use food.

It may help shift how you look at food.

But I also think fasting from electronics can be profound, or fasting from TV or entertainment or anything that you have this attachment to.

I think that's where the value is.

Physiologically, I mean, you know, maybe some benefits.

Calorie restriction seems to provide the same benefits.

I think in some cases, fasting is probably unhealthy physiologically for some people.

Maybe people under a lot of stress, fasting might not be so good.

Women tend to be more sensitive to fasting than men in that particular regard.

Why is that?

I can't fast.

It's impossible for me.

A woman's body

is much more sensitive to stresses that could render her

infertile or dangerous to her young or to being pregnant.

So going without calories, if the woman's body is already under a lot of stress or already really lean, that may make the body like freeze up because

and change hormones to make the woman less fertile or whatever because it's not necessarily a good environment for you know, for getting pregnant.

So that's just a kind of like an evolutionary thing.

Whereas with men, that's not so much of a pressure.

So that's, that's probably why a woman tends, women tend to be more, I say tend to, because it's not always true, but they tend to be more sensitive to that.

I find what happens is if I'm not eating for that finite period of time, I'll end up binge eating and eat all those calories I would have eaten earlier just later on in the day because I'm starving.

Yeah, that's that's the bad, that could definitely encourage a bad relationship to food.

That's what I noticed with people is they'll, a lot of people, is they'll fast and they'll have their little eating window and they just end up like restrict binging.

It's like, how's that healthy?

That's exactly what I'm saying.

That doesn't seem healthy, you know?

So that's, I mean, you identified that in yourself.

So, and that's smart that you did that.

I think people need to be a little bit more

honest with themselves and be like, yeah, because I know people who fast and then you look at when they do eat, you're like, are you being honest with yourself?

They're not.

I think it's, but people are falling victim of these trends and think, oh, it causes your body to like burn fat, then it does this, it does that.

I think even having butter in your coffee to me i i it does it i know myself well enough to know that's just extra calories because i'm still going to be eating later on it's not going to stop me from eating yeah no right no somebody monetize that monetize fasting very well and by the way a lot of these biohackers uh

if you see them they they're I don't know, 40 or 45, whatever.

And they look like they're 140.

They don't look like they're like, they're, they're Benjamin Button.

They don't look like they're aging down.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, I don't know.

That whole space is very interesting to me.

And it's,

you know, very marketing heavy.

I mean, it's tough.

It's like, all right, who do you get your advice from when it comes to health and fitness?

People who talk about how to do it in a sustainable way.

I think that's who you need to listen to.

Well, you're super knowledgeable, though.

So what would you say in your space?

Because you're like a philosopher on top of it all.

But what would you say is your spec?

Like, do you think you know supplements really well, fitness really well, nutrient?

Like you seem to have a great grasp on all of it what would you say not tricks but number

what would you say are like key things that the average joe who is someone who's active and fit uh could do that they don't know about like is there is there like a supplement like let's just say if i i omega three

i know it's not omega three but i'm saying like in a perfect world to kind of things that you could people why does this keep on ringing when I keep on?

There's no, it says silent mode on, and it keeps on ringing.

I'm gonna ask that question again.

No problem.

People who are already healthy, who are already fit, who are already active, right?

They're doing all the right things that we talked about.

Since you're an expert in all these things and you're so well read, what are some things that people could add and supplement and enhance their program that like is not part of the mainstream that we can that we can incorporate?

Oh, yeah.

Um, so it's gonna to sound basic and boring, but get tested for your nutrient levels because nothing

supplementing can be profound when you're supplementing a deficiency.

So

you can be fit, healthy, whatever, and find that your magnesium is low, zinc is low, copper might be low.

And

what happens to your body if your magnesium or zinc are low?

Oh, your anxiety levels can go up.

You can notice digestive issues.

Like I had, I got tested recently and my copper to zinc ratio was off.

And because my copper was low,

my skin and hair pigmentation was lighter.

So actually my hair was whiter than it could be.

And I could also have reduced levels of energy and stamina.

Really?

So I started supplementing to balance them out.

And my hair got darker and I started feeling healthier.

So

get your nutrient levels tested.

How often?

Ooh, that's a good question.

You probably don't need to do it more than maybe twice a year.

I don't think you need to, unless something radically changes in your life.

You probably don't need to check it more than once or twice a year.

But once you get tested, actually, it would be more often if you do have a deficiency because you want to see how well you're supplementing for it.

So like if you have low vitamin D, make sure you get tested three months later so you can see that it's working, that you're absorbing what you're taking or whatever, because it could be some other underlying factor like malabsorption or something like that.

But test your nutrient levels and make sure that your nutrient level is where they need to be because that'll be prop, that's profound when you supplement for that if that becomes, if that is indeed an issue.

And then the second one that most people mess up on is sleep.

A lot of fitness and health people,

the difference between seven and a half hours of sleep and eight hours of sleep is huge.

Half hour, huge, huge.

Aim for eight hours of good sleep every single night.

Watch what happens.

It's like game changer.

At that half an hour makes a difference.

Game changer.

How?

Just a little bit.

Just try it.

Try it out and see how you feel.

It's, it's, especially if you work out hard, you need a little bit more sleep than the average person, or if you you work hard, that kind of stuff.

Like give yourself good eight hours of sleep.

I tell, sometimes I tell people go for eight and a half, nine hours, especially if they're really under more stress than usual or really, really training their bodies hard.

But go for that eight because most people aim for eight, but end up hitting seven.

Actually make it eight and watch what happens to how you feel.

You'll notice within a day or two, you'll feel sharper.

Your verbal fluency improves.

Your mood improves.

That was a big one for me.

Like going from seven to eight hours, I'm just in a better mood.

I'm less snappy

with my kids or my wife or whatever.

Just better mood.

Do you drink coffee?

I don't drink coffee, but I do take caffeine.

Like caffeine pills?

Yeah, I'll take caffeine.

I'll take caffeine pills or a caffeine supplement

most mornings, but I'll take more of it on my hard workout days.

So before my workout.

So I use it as an ergogenic supplement.

So would that be like how people used to be in the old days?

Remember, Ephedra was such a big thing.

Oh, yeah.

I was huge with that.

That was huge.

I would too.

I thought it was like the best thing in the world.

Oh, my God.

Literally, we know we we were taking herbal speech i know who knew right i loved it um and then do you think are you taking caffeine does it act like an ephedra like does it really is it better to drink coffee or take a supplement of caffeine coffee's really healthy uh for the most part but for energy purposes well yeah it's for the most part it's healthy so long as it's appropriate for the person because you know if you're

You could also have bad sleep as a result of caffeine, you could have, you'd be under too much stress, in which case caffeine can amplify that.

But

the the reason why I don't drink coffee is I don't tolerate it well with my gut.

So if I drink coffee, it tends to bother my stomach.

Do you have a lot of digestive problems?

Oh yeah, that's where my health issues will,

huh?

Because you've said that a few things, like you like vegetables that are really cooked because of your digestion.

Oh yeah, I had a big, I mean,

in my early 30s, I had, I mean, my digestion went terrible.

I thought I had Crohn's disease, and I had to completely change my, that's the, the message you hear now was developed then because of my health.

My health took a turn for the worse.

And it's my, that's where it hits me.

I know other people, it's in other parts of the body, but for me, it's my digestion.

It's your gut.

Yeah, definitely.

Okay, so you're saying, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Just finish what you were saying.

You were saying.

So coffee.

The coffee.

Coffee is coffee's a great source of antioxidants.

It's very healthy, even decaffed because coffee itself is healthy.

Right.

So if you tolerate it well, it's the best way to get caffeine.

Absolutely.

Better than the caffeine.

And so, how, how do you take pre-workout?

I mean, I take it as a pre-workout.

I'll take caffeine as as well.

So, that is your pre-workout?

Yeah, so I'll go caffeine plus theanine because theanine balances out the caffeine.

Do you take a supplement?

Yeah, amino acid theanine.

There's coffee now that's made with theanine.

I know.

I know.

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you like that?

I have.

I've tried it.

It's good.

Does it really make, is it like enough of theanine to make a difference?

You want to typically go one-to-one or two-to-one.

So I like to go two-to-one, theanine to caffeine.

So if I go 200 milligrams of caffeine, I'll go 300 or 400 milligrams of theanine.

What does theanine do?

Theanine helps.

It's like it calms the brain and the body.

So caffeine gives you the energy, but then you know you can get the jittery shakiness.

The theanine smooths it out.

So caffeine, theanine, you get this real smooth, kind of euphoric, long-lasting energy.

And so how long before your workout do you take it?

About 40 minutes.

40 minutes in the pill form.

Yeah.

If you drink coffee, it can be.

Pill form or supplement form.

I developed a supplement with Organifi called Peak Power.

That's got caffeine in it, so I'll do that sometimes.

I didn't know that.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Co-brand.

I didn't know that.

What is it?

So it's called Peak Power, and it's

an energy supplement.

So it's got caffeine, but it's also got things like lion's mane and bacopa and herbs.

Does it work?

Oh, yeah.

It's a good time.

Really?

Oh, yeah.

You've never sent me any of it.

I just literally just came out with it.

You know what?

We have some in the back.

So before you leave, I'll give you one.

Oh, my gosh.

I want to try it.

Yeah, you could try it out.

What do you think of like

pre would that be considered a pre-workout?

Yes, it would be, but it's not the,

I guess, classic category of pre-workouts because it's not, I'm not all about like giving people crazy stimulants and making them cracked out of their head.

Right.

I want, like, I'm also health focused.

So it's got the stimulants, but it's not like, you're not going to take it in like,

you know, like here colors.

Right.

So

I get you.

Like a C4.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, stuff like that.

Yeah.

I mean, I mean, that's one, one I, so do you believe in shakes?

Like, do you, are you a shake person?

Depends on the situation.

So I think

protein shakes can be useful if you don't hit your protein targets.

So like at the end of the day, oh, I missed my protein target.

Let me supplement with protein.

But

I think that

you shouldn't replace food with shakes.

That's terrible.

You think so?

Yeah, whole foods.

There's nothing like whole foods.

No, but if you're like making it, like a lot of people, their thing is in the morning, they'll have a shake.

That's fine.

But versus like, like, what would be an ideal breakfast?

For most people, it's a fat protein-containing breakfast.

It tends to balance out insulin and blood sugar levels, and it gives people good consistent energy.

But it's not true for everybody.

Some people do better with a carbohydrate type breakfast.

How do you know who you are?

How you feel?

You got to become aware of how you feel.

You know, eat your breakfast and do I have good energy?

Am I getting energy dips?

How's my digestion?

But most people are good with like a

protein-based type breakfast like eggs.

Eggs are like nature's superfood, one of the most healthy foods on the planet.

I would eat the same breakfast for 25 years, okay?

And I recently got

nutrients tested.

Tell me what you think of this, actually, because I think this happens quite a bit with people.

Turns out I'm highly allergic to eggs.

I've been eating five eggs a day for 25 years.

Allergic or you have

no non-intolerance.

I asked the same thing.

It was bright red, like it was flagged.

So IgE

antibodies or whatever?

Highly allergic.

Like it was like

25 times.

But you ate them every day.

Every single day.

So what happens when you eat them?

So my this is what i was gonna now i guess i don't know that's why i was gonna i stopped eating them like a month and a half ago thinking notice maybe i'm gonna no

so here's what i hate about those tests is but you just told us to go take these tests well no that's not a nutrient test that's you're testing antibodies um what's interesting oh no i know i'm isn't i'm tasting oh okay let's i'll tell you why

yeah you maybe you're right yeah what's interesting about that is if you if if if

If you do, in fact, have an autoimmune reaction to them, but you've been eating them every day, you might be better off eating them every day because in some cases now this is not my my realm of expertise but in some cases avoid because they'll tell kids with food allergies this they give them a little exposure every day so they don't get the anaphylactic shock when they get exposed to it on accident yeah so i'm wondering what will happen if you eat eggs now if you'll get a really bad reaction so does that mean i was allergic i mean or why would it come up like that that's a very strange i don't know that's really weird because it's something i that was like a but you had no allergic react physical symptoms.

Not that I know.

So, no, not that I knew of.

I mean, that's why I was like, oh, okay.

This is when testing can annoy the shit out of me because they'll tell you, oh, this is what you're like, but I feel everything feels okay.

Yeah.

That's when I say, listen to your body.

But again, I want to caution because this is from a guy that is like the top nutrient nutrition guy in the country.

He does all the sports teams.

Weird.

Does everybody.

Weird.

And he's like, get off of that.

Have you heard of black currant oil?

Oh,

a bit.

I don't know.

I'm not super verse, but I've seen it as a supplement.

It's supposed to be high in iron.

No, it's supposed to be high in

black currantine.

B66.

B6.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

Were you low in B6?

Suppose he told me to go on.

He says that's what I needed to be on.

Also, L-carnitine.

What do you think of L-carnitine?

I mean, if you eat a lot of red meat, you're probably okay with that.

I don't eat a lot of red meat.

I eat a lot of chicken.

I like chicken.

Yeah.

L-carnitine's in chicken too.

It's an amino acid.

It's an amino acid, right?

Yeah.

But wait a second.

So the shake.

So let's get back to this bread.

You said something.

You said the caffeine pills.

You said the theanine.

I got that.

Give us some other things that you do and also some other things that the average Joe who's not you

wouldn't know to do that can maybe help enhance whatever they have.

Well, great, one of the best supplements known to man is creatine.

And they're saying now women should be doing it.

Everybody.

Why?

It's healthy.

It helps

cognitive function.

It's good for the heart.

It's got antioxidant properties.

Helps build strength, build muscle.

It's a longevity supplement.

It's not just for athletic performance.

Creatine, your body uses it to make ATP.

ATP is what every mitochondria in your body uses as one of its primary sources of energy.

It's anti-aging.

Everybody should take creatine.

So why doesn't anyone, this is exactly, why hasn't anyone said that before?

Why now?

It's already happening.

It's starting to happen.

No, it's happening for the last few, like a little bit, but it wasn't five years ago.

If a girl would take creatine, it'd be like, oh my God, you're going to get so mass.

You're going to build such mass.

Because it was originally marketed for building muscle because it does make you stronger.

But, and so that kind of overshadowed it, right?

Because

that was the messaging.

But no, I mean, all the studies on creatine, that's antidepressant effects.

It's got cognitive boosting effects.

It's good for the skin.

It's antioxidant, good for the heart.

It's literally, you're going in the next five to ten years you're going to see creatine in every wellness supplement it's going to be like it's it's the they're going to they're already giving it to

they're already adding it to supplements for the elderly in like uh care homes and stuff because they're noticing that it's got these health benefits okay so how much creatine should we take uh you know two to five grams a day is is about right so you could put it in a shake or something yeah you put in a shake or just take it straight creatine monohydrate okay is there and also okay give us a couple more

Supplements?

Or in general, it doesn't have to be supplements.

Just I want things that like, I want it, I want pro tips that you can give to somebody who is, who is already active and just wants to kind of get a little more bump.

Yeah, a little more that they would never know otherwise.

Like, oh my God, I never knew that.

Yeah, beta-alanine is a supplement that can help with muscular stamina and endurance.

It's a small effect, but it's real.

Some people don't like it, though, because if you take it, you'll feel like a tingling under your skin.

So it kind of feels weird for some people.

So that's a good, that's a supplement.

Gosh, everything else is kind of like hit or miss depending on the individual.

You know, and what might work for one person isn't going to really do much for another person.

I wish I could give you more, but supplements just aren't magic.

It doesn't have to be supplements.

It can be a food.

It could be an exercise.

What's your here?

I'll give you.

I'll give you some.

Give me your top exercise and your top food.

Top exercise.

I'll give you the top exercises.

okay?

Some kind of a press, some kind of a horizontal press, some kind of an overhead press, some kind of a row, some kind of a squat, and then something that includes rotation.

There's five categories of exercises that'll really cover 95% of

movement and developing your body.

So there's that right there.

Foods, I'll give you, here's a good tip.

Whatever you're eating, eat your protein first.

That tends to lead to more appropriate calorie consumption,

better satiety.

And you obviously, because you hit your protein targets, it helps with muscle building and fitness.

So when you're looking at your dish of food, finish your protein, then eat the rest.

So don't eat it all at the same time kind of thing.

Eat your protein.

Eat the protein first.

Okay.

Do you believe in a cheat day or do you think that's just silly?

I think it's terrible.

You just eat.

Some days you eat other foods and other days you eat other foods.

That whole concept of cheat encourages that restrict binge mentality with food, which I'm not a fan of.

It's a dysfunctional,

it's a dysfunctional way of looking at food.

What are you cheating on?

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Who are you cheating on?

Which is weird.

Yeah.

It's weird.

So you don't do that.

No, I don't communicate it that way.

And

I mean, I know that

he said, get the hell out of here.

The cleaner's going to come now.

Okay, I can wrap it up.

We can do this again, which I'm sure we will.

Do you want me to?

Yeah.

How long has this been?

It's been like...

Oh, we've been over an hour.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Well, I'll wrap this up with my friend Sal because I can, you can come on at any time.

You're always welcome on the podcast.

Love it.

Especially when I'm using your office.

Appreciate it.

Your book is called The Resistant Training Revolution.

It's been out for a little bit, but it's excellent.

He is, for those of you who don't know, Sal is honestly, and I'm not just saying this because you are in front of me, but it's because it's the truth.

one of the best resources I've ever known in terms of information in the health and fitness space because you are are so well read and you put a lot of effort and you are a guinea pig.

And like you are, you're not one end of the spectrum or the pendulum or the other.

You really are somebody who sees nuance and understands that not everybody is the same.

I think that you're like a great, like a great person to kind of bounce stuff off of or like to look at as a as someone of a expertise.

So thank you so much.

No, and I believe it.

So thank you for being on this podcast.

Thank you so much.

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