Episode 178: Jon Acuff – NYT Bestselling Author of 7 books and INC Top 100 Leadership Speaker

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Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins.

You're listening to Habits and Hustle.

Today in the podcast, we have John Akoff, who is a New York Times best-selling author of seven books, including his most recent soundtracks, The Surprising Solution to Overthinking.

I love this book because I'm a big believer that overthinking is what stops and stifles us from success.

And we talk all about it.

And John says that it's in his book, it's not a personality trait, it's the sneakiest form of fear and what it does, and how we can reframe our brains to really stop ourselves from overthinking.

We had a really great conversation about it, about his book.

John also has a podcast.

He's just an all-around great guy.

And this book, like I said, I really recommend this book.

If you're somebody who

overthinks

this one, this one's for you guys.

Hope you enjoy the podcast.

The book is called Soundtracks.

It's about overthinking.

But before we go into

the book and the concept, which I think is people love this thing because I think everybody does it.

But more about you for a second, because you were a marketing guy, right?

For a company, for you're a corporate marketing executive.

Yep.

And then I was a copywriter.

Oh, you were a copyright.

Okay.

And then you transitioned into who you are now.

Like, so

what made you make that?

I'm just curious, like, what made you make that leap?

How did you not, like, how did you get over your own overthinking to actually do that?

And now you have like a very, like, you have like a really nice career and like a lot of motivational speaking and seven New York Times books.

I mean, you're, you're doing like it worked out for you.

Yeah, it's been fun.

So I was a copywriter in marketing for about like 13, 14 years with big brands like Bose and Staples and Home Depot.

And I didn't understand it then, but I was getting an education in branding that was really invaluable to me.

So I feel very, very fortunate.

Twitter made sense to me because it was just writing headlines.

And I'd spent the last 10 years getting an education from some of the biggest brands in the world on how to write a headline.

And so, yeah, so I did that for a while.

And then I was kind kind of, I felt stuck in my career.

I had kind of topped out at 32, which is humbling.

You never want to reach the top of a career ladder at 32, and there wasn't anywhere else to go.

And so I started blogging just as an outlet.

And the blog started to gain some traction, it started to gain some momentum.

And then I started to kind of lean into that.

And it was the first time that I could see the game and how the game was played.

Like, I could see the pieces, I could see the players.

And I thought, oh, this is, if I move this, this happens.

And if I change this, this happens.

And I wasn't an entrepreneur before that.

I wasn't one of those kids that you hear is like, I was an entrepreneur in the womb.

Like I came out pitching papers.

Like, I'm, you know, like that had a million.

That wasn't who I was.

But once I figured out, okay, if I do some side hustle, I can really change my life.

And so I started doing a ton of freelance writing.

I started getting up at 5 a.m.

to write the blog.

My big thing, or one of them, is like when you have a compelling goal, it makes it easier for the things that are hard.

Willpower, grit, discipline, oh, so hard, so hard, like so impossible.

But when I fell in love with this idea of blogging and communicating with an audience and serving people, I then wanted to get up at 5 a.m.

I didn't willpower myself into watching less TV.

It's just TV was less interesting once I was like, there's a whole world of humans that we could create some fun stuff together.

What if I fed that time instead of TV?

Like, what would happen?

And then, like, part of my whole thing is it's so easy to crush it right now because the bar is so low.

The average American watches the equivalent of two hours, two months of TV a year, two months.

So if you just watch one month, you are crushing.

So like it's, in my opinion, the bar is low right now to go out and really.

So for me, that's what started it.

That's crazy.

Yeah, it's nuts.

It was in Happier Money was the book that I'm referring to with that stat.

Great book.

And so, yeah, so that was, I guess, 15 years ago where I did like 2008.

And then somebody said, hey, will you come speak at our event?

And I was like, I think I could do that.

And so then I started to to learn that.

And then, you know, now I would say I do probably 50 to 60 corporate events a year.

And then I try to write one book a year.

It takes me about 500 to 700 hours to write a book.

And so I track those hours.

Like I have a huge wall chart right there.

That's the new book.

So I'm like 370 hours into the new book.

And so I know, okay, like I'm not casual with creativity.

Like as soon as I really got locked in, I was like, okay, I'm not going to treat this casually.

So like most writers, when they say they have writer's block don't have writer's block they have idea bankruptcy they haven't filled up themselves with enough ideas and so I'm a big believer in okay if I curate ideas if I'm generous with ideas if I'm patient with ideas when I sit down I'm sitting down with a bunch of friends to write this book not just me in a blank piece of paper like books are hard for me but the reason I didn't write any until I was 34 and I've written seven in the last 11, 12 years, whatever, is I learned how to be really faithful to the creative process.

and and that's been a game changer for me that's a long answer to how'd you get into this but that's that's some of the words but no i didn't realize you were actually a copywriter i didn't know what part of marketing you came from or what you i love that you said executive it made me sound way more important than i was right um i actually had a jet i did a lot of things with young brands like no i like no i was a senior content designer And there was no super duper senior content designer position above me.

I had topped out in that position.

So it was either become a creative director, which would have taken me away from the writing because I wanted to be actively writing or figure out something else.

And so that's when I started to figure out something else.

And then, you know, 15 years later, here's the something else.

So

I mean, I'm like, so, so interested in you, actually, because first of all, you're, you, you were, that was naturally, you were gifted at writing.

So then writing all those books, though, you already had like a natural inclination for it, right?

A lot of people, like, that's where the stop is and the start.

You know, for me, it's very hard to do that.

So for you, that's already something.

And then you said something about the idea, like your ideas.

How do you culminate those ideas?

Like seven books.

What was your, by the way, what was your most successful book so far?

What was it called?

Well, I think my most successful book was Start.

And a big part of that is

at the time I worked with a guy named Dave Ramsey and he has 8 million radio listeners.

So when you launch a book with somebody who has 8 million radio listeners, like you sell a lot of books.

I would say.

Oh, were you one of his people?

were you one of his yeah i was um i was it was me and his daughter we were the first two and so this was uh 10 years ago so that's probably my best selling but i think my most successful as far as impact has been soundtracks um soundtrack the last like it's the first book i've ever written where parents came out of the woodwork and said do you have a version for teenagers because they said if my if i could have learned how to change my thinking as a 13 year old it would have changed my whole life and so i didn't have a version for that um and my two daughters who are in high school helped me write one.

It comes out in September.

And so that's the impact of that one has been the greatest.

The best selling is probably Start.

So that's amazing.

I didn't even realize you have soundtracks for kids or teenagers.

What's it going to be?

It's called Your New Playlist.

And they wrote it because I knew if I wrote it, it would sound like an adult trying to sound cool.

Like, hello, fellow youths.

Like, you use scooters more than skateboards.

I get it.

Don't mean to be so lit.

Like, it would have sounded like an old person trying to seem cool like drake's not just a duck it's a rapper like i knew it would be lame and so they wrote it and the thing that i'm really proud of my youngest daughter she got cut from the lacrosse team um her sophomore year which was devastating and a week later she said i think we should put that story in the book because i think it'll help other students and so the very first chapter is the text message the coach sent and then the negative soundtrack she heard in response and what she did with that.

And so I was just so proud of her to be like, yeah, let's be vulnerable with this.

There's every teenager is going to go through something like this.

Totally.

Are there tools we can give them?

So yeah, that comes out in September.

It's called Your New Playlist.

That's incredible.

I didn't even realize that.

So that's congratulations.

Oh, thanks.

Yeah.

And we're excited about it.

We're recording the audio book next week, which I think is going to be a hilarious experience to have the three of us in the studio.

And I keep telling them, like, there's words you're not going to be able to say.

Like, rural road was in one of my books.

And eventually the audio engineer was like, hey, dude, no offense.

You have to change that to country road because you are incapable of saying the phrase rural road correctly.

Rural road.

That's like a tongue twister for sure.

And he was, have you done your audiobook yet?

Not yet.

Okay.

I'm going to be doing it.

Yeah.

I'm here.

Add some bonus stories.

Add some riffs.

Like that.

I do that every audiobook because it's another way to give people extras.

So as you're reading a chapter,

add some backstory to it because it expands the content.

And there's a lot of people that would love to read the actual book, but also hear the audio book with some bonus content.

I love, I'm going.

Thank you for that tip.

That's actually a great, a great idea.

I'm writing that down as we speak.

Oh, yeah, fun.

Yeah, thank you.

So basically, well, before I even get one more question about the Dave Ramsey.

So when did you leave that whole group?

Nine years ago.

So

yeah.

Okay.

I feel like he's had he has his minion of people that are ours.

Yeah,

they've done a great job adding other folks.

Yeah, again, it was me and his daughter were one of the first kind of experiments into that.

She's done amazing, Rachel Cruz.

And then, yeah, they've had a series of other folks after that.

But it was a, it was a PhD in personal branding.

It was like being in a greenhouse because, you know, there's a small handful of people that have done it at the scale and the size.

I mean, I think he has 1,300 employees now.

Like, it's a massive organization.

So for me, you couple the experience I got branding with big companies and then the experience I got doing personal branding with him.

I just, I've really benefited from, I've stood on the shoulders of a lot, a lot of giants, I'd say.

But that's how you can leverage and capitalize and grow, right?

Did you, have you always been in Nashville or did you, were you living in the middle?

No, we moved up here for the Dave Ramsey job.

Oh, okay.

We were in Atlanta.

I grew up in Massachusetts, but my wife is from the South and gave me a snow ultimatum and was like, hey,

three winters is enough.

This is some nonsense.

And so we moved back to Atlanta.

And now we've been in Nashville for the last 12 years and

moved up here for the job, but decided to stay because we absolutely love Nashville and the community here and the artists so it's super fun yeah people love it there i mean it's a great it's also booming now i feel like it's become huge and very very blowing up

yeah yeah we call it cranes and cowboys because that's mostly what's here is cranes building construction and cowboys and bachelorette parties our population right now is like 90 musicians 10 bachelorette parties that's our demographic that's really the demo that's actually true when i was just there i couldn't believe how many bachelorette parties i i was like running into it was unbelievable Oh, yeah.

That's constant.

Like, pedal taverns should pick up at our airport.

Like, pedal taverns should just pick up at the taxi stand so you can sing Red Solo Cup immediately upon landing.

It's a really funny community.

You know what?

Honestly, if anything, if this whole thing doesn't work out for you, you should be like a stand-up or do like substance.

I appreciate that.

Yeah, I've done it a couple of times and I love it.

It's just, I really enjoy the corporate work I get to do.

It's super fun.

But

I did, my favorite thing is I got to open for Dolly Parton at the Ryman and it was comedy.

And so I had to come up with that.

It was, and she was amazing.

She did a 90-minute set that started at like 10.15 p.m.

Like she crushed.

Like you talk about a pro because sometimes in moments like that,

the big name comes in and does their two songs and then bounces.

She put on an entire, like it was like watching Michelangelo.

It was crazy to watch her do what she did.

And she, I think she's in her early 70s.

Like she's just an icon.

It was really fun to

peek into her world.

Is she like 74?

I thought she's even, I don't know, she's been around forever.

I don't want to insult Dolly Parton, I don't want to guess her age wrong, nor do I, no, nor do I.

But how did you even get that gig?

Like, how did you,

everybody gets those gigs via my dentist?

Um, I uh, I have a dentist that's her dentist, and he's amazing.

And in Nashville, you just know, you just meet people, and I did probably six different dental events.

I spoke to 800 dentists on Saturday in Phoenix because he said, Hey, I've been reading your books.

We've got this big organization.

You should come speak to it.

And I spoke.

And then, like, corporate speaking, it depends on the audience, but if you speak for, say, a thousand-person dental office, some dental practices are billion-dollar companies.

Like Aspen Dental is massive.

Hedge funds are investing in dentists right now.

So I started to speak at all these dental events.

And then he said, Hey, I've got this charity event, and Dolly's going to be performing.

Would you like to do some comedy there?

And I was like, yes.

And it was at the Ryman.

The Ryman's like the mother church of country music.

Like it's the, like, one of the top 10 venues in the country.

So I, it was amazing.

I, I got there like four hours early and just paced in the back hall.

There's no green room for the, for the 20-minute comedian.

And I just tried not to sweat through my sport coat, but it was super fun.

And it was a, it was a really great challenge.

I love doing it.

When was it?

How long ago did that happen?

This was like January 2020.

And I remember like driving away going, this is going to be the greatest year ever.

Like I had this moment where I was like, this is only January.

The rest of 2020 is going to be awesome too.

Oh, isn't that adorable?

Isn't that adorable that I thought that?

And then I believe, you know, the rest of 2020, like the narrator would be like, he was to be very, very wrong.

And I was.

The rest of 2020 was a lot different than that moment.

Right.

The foreshadow wasn't so, wasn't so.

Yeah, it was like you getting that viral video, you know, like your talk.

Like you're like, this is it.

What a year.

Like, here

rocket ride and then it was like

i know it's so true it's so true okay so now i want to ask you about your book so then what made you well first of all i can't believe the stat that we were talking about what what you talk about that 95 of people overthink that's a huge basically everybody Yeah, and that was what's interesting.

It's one of those things everyone else thinks, they think they're the only ones that does it and everyone else doesn't.

And that's what's really interesting with forms of fear.

Fear often tells you you're the only one.

And then if you're you're brave enough to talk to other people, you realize, oh, yeah, me too, me too, me too.

And so, yeah, we did this study.

We asked 10,000 people, this PhD who helps me research books, this guy named Mike Peasley.

We asked 10,000 people and 99.5%.

And this was before 2020.

Like 2020 was catnip for overthinking because every part of your life has extra thought right now.

Like everyone listening to this right now, the first 99% of their life, they never worried about failing the grocery store.

But now you're like, did I go down the wrong way on this aisle?

Is this an up chip aisle, a down chip aisle?

Like, I don't want to get shamed by my neighbors.

Every part of your life, like, there were so many times you were like, I'm going to go see this friend.

Or like, where do they stand on this?

Like, everything has extra layers of thought.

So, overthinking was a big issue before, but it became a massive issue during the pandemic.

So, that was the book was accidentally well-timed.

Like, some people have said, Did you write it because of the pandemic?

No, we were, we were done with it before the pandemic started.

It just happened to come out during the pandemic.

And I think that's part of the reason it's helped so many people.

Yeah.

Oh, that's what that makes, that makes sense.

I didn't realize that either.

So you wrote it, it was already finished by the time.

It was already finished.

And that was part of the challenge was the way I love to communicate is live events.

Like I go speak at events and that's how I launch books.

And then all of a sudden I couldn't do that.

And so I had to figure out a different version of sharing the ideas.

And it really forced me, you know, crisis is often an invitation to innovation.

Like it forced me to learn things I wouldn't have learned minus that.

And they weren't gifts I necessarily wanted, but I was glad I had them once I had them.

And so that helped me change how I looked at book launches, helped me change how I looked at building communities online and reaching people.

So it was an interesting experience.

Right.

Because you kind of had to.

That was like, that was kind of like there was no live, there was no book tour.

There was no, like the things that I had spent 10 years kind of building up toward.

were not allowed.

And so I had to say, okay, knowing that, like, and I didn't do it immediately.

I want to be really clear.

Like, I think it's it's so tempting when you're, you know, sharing ideas to kind of fast forward your progress.

And like, the reality was I was grumpy for like eight weeks.

My wife might say 12 weeks when the pandemic hit.

It wasn't like the day after.

I was like, well, roll up these sleeves and turn a frown upside down.

Like, no human is like that.

I don't care how positive you are on Instagram.

And so, yeah, so then eventually

I was like, okay, like,

the soundtrack I wrote for myself was, I can, I can pout or I can pivot.

Like, I have a choice.

I can pout and be like, oh, I wish the old way was still the way.

I wish, oh, or I can pivot and figure out a new way.

And so like, I did the, I tried the pouting thing for a period of time.

It was not productive.

It was not, it just didn't work.

Pouting didn't lead to the results I wanted.

So I was like, okay, I did the old college try at being mad and being a jerk and being stressed.

Let me try something else.

And it turns out that something else worked a lot better.

So you called it soundtracks, I guess, because

why?

Why did you say it?

Why did you call it that?

Well, I'd heard people say a thought is like a leaf on a river or a cloud in the sky or a car on the highway.

But for me, it's always been a soundtrack because a soundtrack has the power to change the entire moment.

And often you don't even notice it's playing.

So like think about a movie scene.

You live out in Hollywood.

That's what we assume.

Like if anybody lives in California, if you live in Tennessee, you're like, it's Hollywood.

It's true.

You're right.

Yeah.

So.

like you open up on a scene with a small house it's got shiplap because chip and joanna and like there's kids frolicking and it's this beautiful scene and then they play an ominous song changes everything.

Suddenly you go, don't go in there.

It's quiet.

It's too quiet.

There could be a creepy clown in the sewer.

But if they flip it and play something happy like Vanessa Carlton's Thousand Miles, like suddenly it's a rom-com.

Like suddenly somebody's making their way downtown.

Like it's happy.

And so that's how powerful.

And so the theory of the book was you have the longer you listen to repetitive thoughts, which are soundtracks, the more they become part of your personal playlist.

And you have a soundtrack for every city you've lived in, every ex you ever had, every boss, every opportunity.

You have these soundtracks.

And an example would be like, there are people in your phone that just seeing their name come up on a text, you don't even have to read the text, sets off 50 soundtracks.

And you go, oh, here we go, Sheila.

Like, time to ask for another favor.

Like, you don't even have to read it.

And so that's where it came from: was this idea of what are the soundtracks you're listening to?

And then what would happen if you actually chose them instead of were just the victim of them?

And like, what happens?

Like, what is the overthinking, all the research you've done?

I mean, we, I know the answer a little bit too, but you did, you've done an exorbitant amount of research.

The overthinking, what does it do to our goals?

It like what it

eliminates the ability to progress.

And it's usually very negative.

Yeah, well, it dominates them.

I mean, here's an example.

According to the New York Times, 81% of Americans want to write a book.

It's one of the most popular goals in America.

Every year, less than 1% do.

So 81% say they want to.

Only 1% actually do.

If you look at Amazon publish rates and you go, well, how does that happen?

Well, part of the reason it happens is that we overthink it.

I'll give you an example.

So one of the soundtracks I use to write my books is, it's just a book.

Like I'll have a note that says it's just a book because perfectionism, fear, overthinking, all these things will go, this is the book.

This needs to be a massive book.

You need to go viral with this book.

Or like, I'll meet people and they'll say, I want to write a book because then my dad will know my career choices were the the right ones.

Whoa, you've already put so much pressure on an already pressurized situation.

Books are hard.

Don't add some more pressure.

So when I'm writing a book, I've got a soundtrack going, it's just a book.

Like I'm going to go in, I'm going to put my hours in, I'm going to treat it like a job.

It's going to be an amazing thing, but it's just a book.

Then when it releases, it's no longer just a book.

Now it's the book.

I need to talk about it and shout about it in a big way, but in order for me to actually finish it.

So that's where overthinking gets in.

And it complicates systems.

It slows decisions.

it makes you miss opportunities.

I mean, even just think about all the things you've thought that you thought, okay, I should write this down, and then you said, No, that's dumb, somebody's already done that, and you self-edit.

So, imagine the works of art, the cures for diseases, the business ideas we've lost because someone self-edited before it even got into their phone, before it even got on a piece of paper.

So, I always say overthinking is the sneakiest, greediest form of fear because it steals time, creativity, and productivity.

And I'll give you a last example.

I interviewed a manager who said, you know, I got fired from my job.

She, she said, this is really terrible.

I got fired from my job.

And it was 12 years ago.

And I noticed recently that every time I see the door close at my new job, I wonder if I'm going to get fired again.

And I check the roster of the meeting.

Why am I not in that meeting?

I start to overthink it.

Let's say she only does that 10 minutes a day.

10 minutes a day, 50 minutes a week, no big deal.

But over the last 12 years, that equates to 62 eight-hour workdays.

Is it good for her to donate that amount of time, that amount of her life, that amount of her creativity to that broken soundtrack?

Of course not.

So that's just an example of it steals your time, it steals your creativity, it steals your productivity.

No, I think that's exactly true.

And what the, but the real question is, how do we stop it, right?

Like, it's a thought and it's like, it's in your head.

You can, it's very, very hard to stop something.

It's especially if someone like is a natural ruminator, right?

Where they ruminate and ruminate.

How do people stop doing that?

Yeah, I mean, the book walks you through kind of the three main steps.

The first is you retire your broken soundtracks.

These are next to you.

Three artists.

Yeah, you identify which ones are broken, which ones are in the way,

and then you replace them with new ones.

You want to think.

Anyone who gives you the advice, just stop thinking or stop overthinking, that's not helpful.

You're designed to think.

Like, I love meditation.

I love mindfulness.

That's 10 minutes of your day.

That's 30 minutes of your day.

What about the other 23 and a half hours?

The solution can't be don't think.

You're designed to think.

And so you replace them with new thoughts and then you repeat those new ones so often they become as automatic as the old ones.

We want fast progress, but some of your broken soundtracks, like I'll work with leaders that are 42 and they're giving opportunities at their job to step into bigger roles and they're pulling back.

And if you pull the thread, the reason they're pulling back is when they were 21, a college professor said, you're not a natural leader.

And they accepted that and they believe that.

And they've listened to that soundtrack 10,000 times for two decades.

So when you give them a a new one, you can't just go, here's the new one, good luck.

You're sending one new soundtrack of one afternoon up against two decades of over and over.

Like, who's going to win in that fight?

So you have to repeat it in creative ways.

And so that's the premise of the book is how do you do that?

What does that look like?

And it ends up being really fun and a lot easier than most people think.

Well, first of all, okay, let's, because you talk, that's what you said, the three R's is how you, the power, how do you kind of tap into the power of overthinking.

And,

but what okay so you said a few things here so what if people don't know that it's broken like is there what element of self-awareness is this is there yeah

i'll give you a 30-second activity that any listener on the planet can use all you do to identify a broken soundtrack because that's the question you're asking okay how do i even know if i have a broken soundtrack all you do is write down a goal so the goal can be anything the goal can be i want to start my own podcast i want to ask that person out i want to move to austin um i want to lose lose 10 pounds.

You know, I want to write a screenplay, whatever.

You write down a goal and then you listen to your first thoughts.

You listen to the first thoughts that come.

Are they encouraging?

Do they say, you should do that?

You're so well equipped to do that.

You're the right age to do that.

This is going to go so well.

Or are they negative?

Do they say, who do you think you are?

Somebody smarter's already done that.

Like you failed the last time you did.

You're going to fail this time again too.

Or you're too old.

That's what's interesting about fear.

Fear argues both sides of the coin.

Fear when you're young will say like your 20s, maybe mid-30s will say, you're too young.

You don't have enough experience.

Nobody will listen to you.

Then you hit like mid-30s, mid-40s, and fear goes, you missed your shot.

It's too late.

And you want to say to fear, when was I the right age, the perfect age to do this?

As if fear would go, there were 10 minutes when you were 31.

That would have been so, so perfect.

Like it was a Tuesday in October.

And so you listen to those first thoughts.

You listen to your reaction because every reaction is an education.

So when you write down that goal, you listen for those thoughts.

And if they're encouraging, awesome.

Turn them up.

You've got a great soundtrack.

But if they're not encouraging, it might be a broken soundtrack.

And there's some things you can do about that.

So that's the, it does take self-awareness, but it takes less than you think to start that conversation.

And once you do, like once you find the first or second, you're going to start to see them everywhere.

That's why we realized the teenage book would be helpful.

We were at a swim meet and this girl got out.

She's probably 13 or 14.

She said to her mom, Mom, I'm the slowest swimmer on the team.

I'm the worst swimmer on the team.

I'll never be better.

And my wife and I just looked at each other and said, oh, those are just some broken soundtracks.

She can change that.

And I'd say that to parents: any parent listening, if you hear your kids use absolutes, it's usually a broken soundtrack.

I'm the only one who didn't get invited to the party.

I'll never get better at geometry.

Every one of my friends went except me.

I have the oldest phone in the classroom.

Like, if you hear absolutes, it's usually a broken soundtrack.

So, there's so many ways to identify them that don't take a ton of self-awareness.

And then, so, give me some tech.

Can you talk?

There's like a whole area about the techniques of about how to, how to kind of break those,

break the broken or kind of stop, stop the broken soundtrack while it's happening.

And it's so, and it's basically action-based.

Like if you kind of stop what you're doing, like you said something, which I thought two things that I thought were interesting, going to the grocery store, that's what I do.

I go to the grocery store because it like, A, you feel productive, even if you're buying one little thing.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Because it's like, okay, well, and it's like getting you out of that like mental place where you are right now and doing something right yep that's why i i i go to costco when i'm very stressed out or

like isn't it great yeah it's the best costco i i even love it at christmas like i even like costco it's so good to me and it's efficient and you're like it's going to be so crowded and then they work

that line and they have the score of who's the fastest register person i'm like i love yeah i they do in your costco they do not in my costco they have it in your costco i guarantee if you look on the back wall there's a they keep a score like Tim R in our neighborhood is crushing I've never met him he's like a legend in our Costco and I ask all the other cashiers I'm like is Tim R here and they're like that guy is so fast so yes really oh yeah if you look at the back of your Costco there is a hundred percent a scoreboard because people want progress that's how like everybody wants progress whether you're a cashier at Costco whether you're an executive like people are motivated by progress and I love that Costco does like those are those I mean I have a podcast called all it takes is a goal so I'm always curious about like yeah how is costco motivating people how are you know how's this company motivating people so that's just the nerdy goal side of me that notices stuff like that but i guarantee it's at your costco that's very interesting because people think that also it's very much for like high performers or people who are successful that they need a goal to kind of keep on kind of moving forward but what you're it's interesting like it doesn't matter where you are in your life or your career like progress is progress and that's everyone and that's the biggest motivator to kind of keep going everyone like the i'm working on a new book and one of the ideas is about another one i thought you're working on the teenage book that one's already done that one comes out in september i've got another one due in august um

we don't have a title yet but it's about potential and one of the things we studied is the reason why you compare yourself to other people is because your brain wants to know you're making progress.

And if you don't show it you're making progress, it just goes and finds somebody else's progress card and so we come up with all these solutions to fix comparison but we never give the brain what it really wants gratitude isn't what it what what it wants in that moment your brain is like are we going the right way are we making progress are we doing things and you go just be thankful that's not what it's asking it's asking are we making progress and if you don't answer it in your own life you just go look at other people's lives and and go look at that score and so like it's really fascinating yeah we as humans want to know we're going the right direction our relationships are going the right direction our finances are going the right direction And if you can't see that in a visual way, your brain starts to go, okay, well, I'm going to go compare us to other people because you won't give me any sort of update on how we're doing.

So I'll just go look at somebody else's life and then feel inadequate.

Like, so it's really interesting how much we want to know where things are going.

That's what's interesting.

Well, then social media is terrible for that because

it's opened up a whole, you know, panacea.

It's opened up a whole plethora of things that you can constantly compare yourself to constantly.

Well, and the problem is it's new.

We think it's old.

Like we sometimes like we've always had it.

We're the first generation.

And so like my mom, Libby Acuff in the 1980s, couldn't compare her motherhood to other moms.

Like she could compare herself to five people on her cul-de-sac, but she couldn't compare herself to a mom in LA, a mom in Spokane, Washington, a mom in Topeka, because she didn't have access to their lives.

Like she just didn't, it's the same reason like you go, there's more jerks online now.

There's not necessarily, it's just you have access to those jerks.

Growing up, I knew the 10 jerks jerks in Hudson, Massachusetts, but I had no exposure to the jerks in Cleveland, Ohio.

Right.

You know, like, but then the internet was like, here's every jerk ever.

And guess what?

They're so talkative.

Like, they're so, like, they're really loud.

And so it's not that there's more jerks.

It's just now we have access to them.

And that's part of what makes social media a challenge is we're all kind of bumping into those people.

And you go, okay, well, this is challenging.

It is.

And it's new.

And like in 100 years, the textbooks are going to talk about how we handled it.

There's not, we can't go back 100 years and go, okay, but how did my grandfather handle social media?

He didn't.

Like we're the generation and that's why it's awkward and we're figuring it out.

Like social media is still a toddler.

Like we barely know how to walk because it's still so new.

Which is scary to me, right?

Because people are not able to socialize as

properly anymore.

Do you remember before

you were probably around the same age?

Like before I had, I never had a phone.

I never texted people and I was very happy.

Like

I had a very flourishing social life.

I wasn't worried about, like, to your point, what Mary Jane was doing in like Wichita, Kansas.

And now, every sec, every moment you have, it's, it, it basically is spent scrolling, you know, like it's going to probably add, you know, when we first talked about, you said two months of our life is spent watching TV.

So, if you just stop watching a month of that, you're like ahead of the game.

Yep.

I wonder when you include social media, how much time we actually spend just on just screens.

I bet you that numbers four months.

Two months on social media, two months on TV.

Well, and the thing is, you know, what's interesting, I was reading about this in the psychology of money, this brilliant book where it talks about persuasion theory.

and how the scrolling is mimicking the slot machine pull down.

So they studied persuasion theory from the casino industry.

And so when you scroll down, it's like a slot machine and your brain goes, okay, we don't know what's going to happen.

Will there be new posts?

Will be like, and we're wired for that.

And we get a dopamine hit.

And so none of it's accidental.

That's the other thing.

It's not like you have to, like, I always tell people, remember you're up against 10,000 developers.

Like, that's, those are the odds right now.

It's you versus 10,000 of the smartest developers in the world.

And you go, why am I so bad at staying off my phone?

Because it was you again.

If you did, if you tried to do karate against 10,000 people, you wouldn't be like, why did I get beat up?

10,000 people?

That's a lot of people and they're really smart.

And so, yeah, you'd like put it in a door, leave it in another room like that's almost all you can do is be like i like my phone one of my goals is i put it and i plug it in another room when i go to bed because if it's even near me like i can hear the siren call of like just one more email one more text one more and like the problem with social media is never done you never go to bed and go i did it all i finished social media today it it doesn't have an end

especially if you're high performing and you're you're trying to build something like forget it like you have to you have to draw the end and then go to bed.

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I think it's also the biggest time stock.

I know that it's like another job that's been added to everybody's job that they have to kind of maintain.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, wait till your book comes out.

Like you, you're about to have like seven new full-time jobs in the fall.

Like it's I haven't already.

Listen, you know, like I already have, I feel like agita.

When you were talking about the book stuff earlier, I was like, oh my God, it's happening now.

Like, I'm just like, it's a, it's like, literally, it's like a monster.

Like, nobody, by the way, I should say this, like, nobody wants to be around me when I'm writing my book or when I'm launching a book.

This is like my book.

Yeah.

It's like my wife told me that about me.

I actually have worked hard on that because four years ago, I got the best book deal of my life.

And my wife said, Hey, you're a jerk for the two years when you write a book and you're a jerk for the two years when you sell it.

And that's not going to work.

She said, I'd rather you be a happy plumber than a miserable writer.

And what she was saying was the only fuel I had for production was stress.

Like I was addicted to chaos, addicted to deadlines, and I was miserable to be around.

So I've, yeah, that's part of the last four years has been coming up with a different fuel for my creativity versus panic, stress.

Like, it's not fun to be around somebody who's running on cortisol.

Well, exactly.

Well, your wife could call my husband.

Exactly.

That's so funny.

That's so funny.

Because I think that it's very, very difficult to shut it off because you feel pressure, right?

And you want it to do well.

And, you know, and then the overthinking, which is again about why how we even got the Costco thing, right?

The techniques and all this.

Can name, let's talk about a few of the techniques because I think people will find that interesting.

Because, like you said, 99% of the people

have this issue that basically slowed them down from productivity or getting to their goal.

Yeah, so

here's the big thing.

David Thomas, who's a therapist here in Nashville, we were having coffee and I was asking him about this.

And he said, the problem, John, is that people want there to be a switch.

We live in a culture that wants a switch, as if you do one thing and it switches off your overthinking.

You do one thing and it switches off your stress or your negativity.

He said, but we don't live in a switch world.

We live in a dial world.

And so when you have a switch mentality, you go, yoga is going to fix me.

And you go do yoga and it works for like a week and there's less stress.

You go, I did it.

I figured it out.

But then guess what?

Life gets stressful again because life is stressful.

Like it's, it's a hard job being on the planet.

There's beautiful parts, there's messy parts.

And he said, it's much better to go, when you get turned up to a nine, okay, I get to turn the dial back down.

And I have a personal set of things that helps me turn the dial down.

And they're personal to you.

So for me, one of them is running.

I like to run.

I need the indoor fence.

I like being outside.

Somebody else would hear that and go, oh, I hate running.

Great.

Maybe for you, it's walking with a friend.

Maybe for you, it's reading.

Like I met with a friend for lunch today and he said, oh, I've been loving reading poetry on my porch.

I'm not a big poem guy.

Like I appreciate it as a craft, but it doesn't relax me.

It doesn't turn my dial down.

I mean, the dorkiest one I do is I love doing huge Lego vehicles, like putting together a Porsche 911 or Bugatti.

Like it's 4,000 pieces and I love it because it has instructions.

None of the rest of my life has clear instructions.

How do you be an author?

How do you be a speaker?

How do you be a podcaster?

Like there's not clear instructions, but I get this 4,000-piece Lego set and there's a huge manual.

I can follow it step by step.

And so for me, that's a turn down technique.

For other people, it's knitting or gardening.

So what you do is you, that's where there is some self-awareness where you go, okay, these are the 10 things that turn turn me down.

Like when I'm up at a nine, when I'm up at a 10, because life's going to happen like that, these are the things that turn me down.

And these, you you know, for you, it was a quick trip to Costco.

And I, I feel productive because I got the three things.

I was in and out.

I knew how to do it.

So yeah, you just figure out, okay, what are the things that I need to add to my list?

You know, and for like for my daughter, one of her soundtracks, she's 16, she has a big hourglass on her, on her night side table, and she turns it over in the morning and goes, it's a new day.

Like it's a new day.

And it feels like, okay, I get to start over today.

It's a new day.

So that's one of her turn down techniques.

And so you just figure out, and they don't have to be massive.

It doesn't have to be, I go to Paris, like that'd be amazing.

But like in your day-to-day life, what are some things that when you recognize or a friend or a spouse says, hey, you're at like an 11 right now, you go, oh, that's right.

What are the techniques I need to turn down my dial?

And it becomes this fun game because you then start to collect them.

And you go, you know, 10 minutes of NPR or 10 minutes of this song turns me down.

There's a million different ways to execute it, but it's always based on what works for you.

My techniques don't work for other people.

Vice versa.

Yeah, I think exercise is a huge one.

And running for me, by the way, is the other one.

Because I agree with you 100%.

So, but that's there is like a major element of self-awareness there because you need to kind of recognize A, that you are in that loop, that broken soundtrack loop, and then like get out of it and do something for it.

Well, and you want to recognize before your body is like, okay, we're just going to shut you down.

Like, you want to, you know, yeah.

And part of it is we do need community.

You mentioned that earlier with phones, like you need community.

You need friends that will reflect back and go, hey, you feel really stretched thin right now.

Or, hey, like, I know for me, I don't like to have back-to-back-to-back-to-back meetings.

I need a little bit of space between them.

And so I know that going in, like at 46, I've got a little bit better understanding of my owner's manual than I might have at 26.

And I can say, oh, that's right.

I'm not at my best when I'm in like scheduling, scheduling, scheduling.

Okay, I need to make sure that I bake in as I can.

There's some days when I can't, and I'm going from a city to a city, but if I can to bake in a little bit of space, because that's healthy margin for me.

And yeah, you do pay it, you do end up needing to pay attention to it, but I still don't think it, I still think it can be done in the context of community because I always say like, sometimes it's you're so close to the painting, you can't see what it looks like.

And you need people that are further back, friends that'll go, hey, like, because everybody's had a relationship, a bad dating relationship where their friends were all like, this guy is terrible.

And then when you break up with him and you have some distance finally, you go, he was terrible.

Why didn't you you guys tell me?

And they're like, we did tell you.

Like we had enough distance, but you were so close.

So we need people in our life that love us enough to go, hey, you're feeling really stressed to me.

Like, are you stressed out right now?

Like, can we go on a walk and talk about that?

So I think community is helpful in that case.

And, you know,

you were saying, I agree with you.

And I think that there's also an element.

what you were saying earlier about changing

the, I guess, the soundtrack a little bit in terms of before

we even get to what are the techniques, is there, what about positive affirmations?

People are always talking about like positive affirmations, like speak, speak to you, because if you, what the words that you say matter in terms of your words turn into, you know, how, what, what kind of, how you execute on your life.

Do you believe in that?

Do you think that helps?

If I said to myself, I'm,

you know,

because yeah, I kind of am very wishy-washy.

I didn't initially, but I do now.

Yeah, okay.

I didn't initially, but I started to talk to people that I really respected that were high-performing.

And if you'd get them off mic, if you'd get them backstage and go, hey, what do you think about affirmations?

What do you think?

They'd all go, I got a mantra I do.

I got a pep talk I give myself.

They all had that.

So I was like, oh, no, I'm going to have to study this.

Because I grew up with like Serenity Now and Seinfeld and like, you know, Saturn Live.

I'm good enough.

I'm smart enough.

Doggone it.

People like me.

So I really studied it.

And I started by studying how Zig Ziglar did it, who's kind of like a motivational godfather in this country.

And I practiced his affirmations for a solid month.

And I was like, this is really encouraging.

And then I interviewed Tom.

Zig passed away a few years ago.

I interviewed Tom, his son, and I tried to play like stump the Zig, where I'd be like, but what about, what about, what about like that cynicism, sarcasm, because I'm a sarcastic person by nature.

And I think one of the things that helped me a lot was I would say to him, is it just fake it till you make it?

Like, is it just fake it till you make it?

And he said, no, not at all.

He said, you're telling the truth in advance.

And the way he described it to me was, he said, if you tell yourself, I'm in the best shape of my life and you're actually not, your brain knows that and it creates cognitive dissonance.

It doesn't help you.

So instead, he said, say, I'm getting fitter and fitter every day in every way.

If you're actively working on your health, say that because it's true.

Like, and your brain can go, that's true.

I see that.

So I don't believe in the like, I don't, you know, like, I wouldn't say out loud today, I have a hundred million dollars in the bank.

I don't.

And my brain knows that.

That's not helpful.

Like that's actually destructive.

I might say, every day I get better at building my business.

That's true.

That's positive.

That's moving forward.

So yeah, I 100% believe in the power of your thoughts, the power of positive thinking.

At the same time, I think there's a lot of silliness online that isn't tested, that isn't helpful,

that gets people kind of spun out.

And then you lump it all together and you miss some of the good stuff.

So like, for instance, I have a note, I'll grab it,

that says, I love writing this book.

Like I love writing this book and I put, I wrote that on

November 10th, 2019.

So that's almost three years old because I kept forgetting.

So I would have this negative soundtrack of, oh, I got to go write this book.

Writers are so emotional and they're artists and they're like, got to go to the coal mine and write this book.

Coal miners should punch writers in the face constantly because it's very difficult to be a coal miner.

Like I'm writing a book.

Like that's a real privilege.

Like, so I needed a simple reminder.

That's a positive affirmation.

I love writing this book.

And I need that as a reminder.

So, like, when I sit down, because usually like 20 minutes in, I'm like, oh, this is going well.

Or like an hour in, I'm like, oh, this is going well.

But at the beginning, I'm like, oh, like all the insecurities, all the broken soundtracks, all the stuff.

So I need that as a positive affirmation.

So I 100% believe in the power of them.

I just think there's, there's great ways to use them and there's bad ways to.

I think positive affirmations are a tool.

I'm not a big, like if you say it out loud it manifests i'm not a big like the universe is trying to support the universe doesn't care about me it's very busy like jamming boats into the suz canal like the universe has much more important things to worry about than john akoff's book um but i do believe that your your thoughts turn into your actions your actions turn into your results and so i'm very like conscious about like if my daughter says i'll never get better at geometry we'll say hey wait a second that's a broken soundtrack what if we said um i'm practicing geometry i'm getting better at geometry.

I can learn geometry just like I learned algebra last year.

That's a positive affirmation, but it's also true.

So I don't like them when I feel like they're not true.

See, I love, see, that to me, I understand.

What you did, how you just described that to me, it makes perfect sense to me because that's not so much like saying,

I'm going to have a million dollars.

I want, you know, I'm a millionaire or I'm a this or this and I'm going to be a, to me, that's very, it's very loosey-goosey.

There's no, there's nothing tangible there, right?

no but what you're saying these positive affirmations that you're saying that actually make a difference are ones when it's like you're kind of switching the dialogue to be more positive versus negative like i do love this book because that then becomes like the the actually the song or the soundtrack in your head i love this book i love this book because you're actually in the moment you're you're actually doing it it's actually happening 10 well here's another example here's another example so somebody asked me this john one of my broken soundtracks is i'm so lonely i'm so lonely I'm so lonely.

And so I said, I wouldn't say to that person, and I didn't say to this person, well, switch it to, I'm not lonely.

Like, that's not true.

Like, instead, say, I'm built for community.

That loneliness isn't a bad thing.

That's your heart going, I'm built for community.

And I know I need to go get some more.

Like, and that's not, that's not a weakness.

That's a strength.

I'm made for community.

That's different than going, just tell yourself a thousand times today, you're not lonely.

That's not true.

It's not helpful.

It doesn't move you forward.

I'd much rather redeem that with the truth.

And the truth is, I'm built for community.

So what do I do with that?

Again, that thought turns into an action.

I need to go find more community.

I need to, you know, what can I do with that?

And to that person, I said, go volunteer.

The fastest way in any city in America to find community is to volunteer for something you care about because every organization needs somebody and it's full of people like you that love that same thing.

So if I would, if I said I'm built for community, I don't have any, I'm going to go find someplace to volunteer because they're going to be so thrilled that I'm there.

I'm going to meet other other people that love animal rescue.

And that's one of my passion, you know.

And so that's how, to me, that's the flip.

It's not say you're not lonely a hundred times today and then hope it's like magic that it fixes you.

Right.

You're reframing the way you're speaking to yourself.

Constantly.

Positively.

Yeah.

That's more.

Yeah.

That's that's that's a diff that's different.

It's not about manifestation and all this other gobbly goop that I don't believe in either.

So yeah, no, I love results.

Like, let's go results.

Like, let's, again, totally have the thought, have the action, have the result, have it all, but let's do it in a way that actually gets you to the result.

Right.

The problem is a lot of people don't even know what they want.

They're kind of like, they're floundering.

They don't even know what to go for.

They don't know what to, what they want.

And so there, there, there goes the stop and the start, right?

So they don't know how to even move forward.

Well, how do people do that?

Like, how does it over, could they overthink to the point where they're like in, you know, their analysis, like analysis paralysis is what happens.

Yeah.

So I always, I always say, you know, write down five things and then do one, three, and five.

And they'll go, why one, three, and five?

I'm like, okay, fine, do two and four.

Like it doesn't matter which ones you pick.

There's not a magic number.

And so I think that we can get stuck, but part of it is like you find something you enjoy.

I don't, I think part of the problem is we have misinterpreted things like Stephen Covey's begin with the end in mind.

Because how it got twisted is you can't begin until you know the end.

And so people go, what's your vision for your whole life?

That's really intimidating.

I didn't, I'm not talking you today because in 2008, when I did my first blog, I was like, I bet this is how it's all going to go.

I really didn't.

Like, I did the next thing and I did it,

you know, as full as I could with as much passion and dedication.

And then I built on that.

And then it went a different direction than I thought.

But I think same with Simon Sinek's book, Start With Why.

Like, it's an amazing book, but people have misinterpreted to go, until you know your why, you can't try.

And that's not what he's saying at all.

But on the internet, it gets shorthanded into well what's your perfect why and i like whenever i talk to college groups i'll say anyone who's in their 40s that told you they knew what they were going to do when they were 19 is a liar like they didn't so when so what happens is adults that are in their 40s say to a college grad well what's the next thing what are you going to do for the rest of your life as if at 48 they knew at 22 like i didn't know that i couldn't have it majored in most of the things i'm doing right now podcasting social media because it didn't exist like in 1998 when i was graduating from college Twitter didn't exist, Instagram didn't exist, podcasts didn't exist.

So imagine me trying to go in 1998, okay, I'm graduating, I got to know what I'm going to do.

Like the thing you might do might not physically exist yet.

Like, and so instead of being overwhelmed by that, you should be freed by that to go, I don't have to have it all figured out.

I don't have to, I have to know the next set of things I want to try.

And I'm going to try these things and see where they go.

And I'm going to test them.

And I'm going to pay attention to how they make me feel and how they make other people feel.

and is it something I want to spend more time doing and I'm going to grow it from there but I'm not going to put that pressure on I've got to figure out the thing whether that's you use why or your vision or your driving passion like I again all of those things are good I just don't like them when they're used to to freeze ourselves and I think totally true and you're going to learn them as you go like you're going to shape them as you go and and you're going to learn new things about yourself like how boring would life be if at 18 you know exactly what the next 30 years like nobody's that smart i didn't predict the pandemic like after these last two years there shouldn't be a person on the planet that's like you got to know how the next two years are going to go oh did you did you guess these last two like you called these per oh that's amazing like by all means predict the next two but if you didn't don't put that pressure on yourself try something and throw a couple hours at it like it doesn't the problem is people think it's the thing they have to do for the rest of their life they think okay this is going to be forever like try a couple hours see if you like it keep building to it, see if you like it.

I wrote a book called Finish about finishing goals, and it talks about that.

And so, yeah, I think that's a much easier approach.

My God, every single one, I got to start reading all your books.

Every book of yours sounds exactly exactly, they're all like by, it's basically, it's all this, it's like one extension of another, and they sound, all of them sound great.

I appreciate you saying that.

That's, that's really encouraging.

No, it's true.

It's amazing.

And you're very likable, by the way.

I'm sure you hear that all the time.

You're very, very funny.

I'm telling you.

That's funny.

No, you are.

You're like.

Well, we started with tech problems and I've had tech problems.

So I think right out of the gate, we were like, yeah, like we're going to, you know, like whatever people say, just do a quick video that we need.

It's seven seconds and we want you to say your name, the location, and do something funny.

I'm like, oh, in seven seconds?

And they're going, just on your iPhone, but also make it look amazing.

And then I'm just like, oh, here we go.

I got to do a quick video.

Like, that's where my perfectionism is like, oh, boy,

you're not even lighting this right.

You look a thousand years old, it's shot from under your chin.

Like, so I, as soon as we talked about tech, I was like, oh, we're gonna have a fun conversation.

You know, it's so funny that you just said that right now because I've like literally procrastinated.

I'm slowing down an entire process of a project I'm working on because they're like, we just need like five or six videos, like about three or four minutes each of you talking about something you need, you know, that you talk about all the time.

I'm like, oh, just five or six of them?

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, just riff, but make it personal, but educational, but funny and relatable and fast.

It's super easy.

It'll take you like 10 minutes.

And you're like, that's going to take me.

You know, so whenever somebody says that.

I know.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, my God.

It's literally been sitting on my desk for like three and a half weeks because I just can't even do it, you know, which is then literally holding up everything else.

But, and again, like, it's just when it's done with the idea of just knock it out.

Just knock it out.

Yeah.

Just knock it out.

Like, whenever somebody wants you to do something difficult, they go, knock it out.

It's a quick tweak.

You're so good at this.

You could probably do this in your sleep.

And you're like, the thing you described is like a four-week project.

Like, if I'm going to do it well, you know, like, yeah.

So I'm sure we could talk shit off like that constantly.

Right.

And so that's the overthinking, though, right?

Because I'm like, I don't know what I'm going to say.

All the, now I have pressure.

So, like, where, like, how did you like kind of reconcile pressure with overthinking?

Because this is literally what happens.

And because I then get like so overwhelmed by like that project that I know I'm not good at, you know, I just end up not doing it.

And I'm thinking about it constantly.

Yeah.

Here's what you do.

You play to your strengths.

So like if anybody listening was like, I'd love to write a book, but I don't like writing.

Awesome.

Like, what's the thing you do like?

Like, if I had a podcast, I mean, I have a podcast, but say somebody who's listening, they're like, I want to write a book.

I don't like writing, but I have a podcast.

You then talk your book out.

Like make it, you know, write it out that way.

Like take a bunch of episodes, get them transcribed, play to your strength.

So for your particular situation, if that were me, the ways I'd kind of get around the overthinking would I'd ask follow-up questions.

I wouldn't let anybody go, hey, we just need this.

I'd go, well, can you give me the initial script?

Can you give me a draft?

Can you give me some bullet points?

Like I would push back to get more detail because I know if I just.

I'm supposed to turn on the camera and like go off the cuff, like it's not going to be the quality level I want because you prepared for the podcast.

Like you prepared, like you're writing a book, you're prepared for that.

So I would ask follow-up questions for that.

And then when it came time to actually do it,

if I really needed to, I'd have a friend help.

I'd be like, hey, I just need a little, it's like a sober companion.

Like I need you to hold the camera and just tell me like it's working.

If I repeat myself, whatever.

Like I'd have somebody help me with it.

The third thing I'd do is I would time box it.

I would go, I would set it against something else.

So I'd go, okay, I have 90 minutes for this and there's a podcast interview I'm doing at the end of this 90 minutes.

So I have to be done.

Like like i would i would time box myself so that i couldn't do it all day and so i would you know for me it's always figuring out and then eventually like i stopped doing youtube because i hated youtube like i everybody was like you got to do youtube and i realized three things i hated doing it i wasn't good at it um and it didn't make any money that's like the venn diagram of things you shouldn't do because it's one thing if you you're not good but you love it because you'll get better if you hate it and you're not good you're never going to get better.

And so, for me, you know, my podcast, All It Takes is a Goal, I love doing that.

That fits my skill sets.

And I tried YouTube for a year and I, you know, I did the college try.

Like, I tried it enough to have a pretty good sense of, okay, I don't love it.

And that's not to say maybe I will hire that down the road or invest in that in a different way, but me, like, because people go, it's so easy.

Just do YouTube as if it's like a switch, you know, and like, oh, I'm sorry.

Like, and then like people are mad when you're not on it.

They're like, why aren't you on YouTube more?

I'm like, I'm sorry.

I'm, I'm trying to write a book, like a whole book pretty regularly, like, not just occasionally.

Like, I'm speaking 50, I was in Phoenix talking to Dennis.

Like, I'm doing a lot of other stuff, but they go, man, I just, what's your LinkedIn strategy?

And you're like, I don't have time for a LinkedIn strategy, you know, like, so I'll hire stuff, but I'm also kind of going, if I've tried it for a year and I've hated it, I'm not good at it and it doesn't make money.

Like, I don't know what other sign I'm waiting for to see I shouldn't do that.

I'm not, I'm not going to do that.

So like, there's, it's good to quit stuff too.

I, I think that's, first of all, that's exactly what's happening right now.

It's like, why are you not on YouTube?

We need to have 10 videos of you talking about, I'm like, and that's the problem.

And I'm like, maybe this is not for me.

I mean, why didn't you like YouTube?

What was the part that you kind of were like, it was every part because I'm a writer.

Like, one, I'm a writer.

Like, I love writing.

That's a quiet, like, introverted activity.

I'm more of an introvert than

most people think.

Like, I'm extroverted in situations like this, but like even public speaking, I'm the only one with the mic.

Like I'm on stage.

Like that's a very controlled moment.

Like I know exactly where I'm going.

Like a panel is an extroverted situation.

I don't do a lot of panels.

I do keynotes.

And so for me, YouTube, it felt public in a way I didn't like creating.

The technology wasn't my strength.

I, you know, the sense that it's going to live forever and you could make a mistake.

Like it just had so many perfectionism booby traps for me.

So, like, where I think I'll get to, like, even doing reels, people are like, you got to do more reels.

Like, how come you're not doing a million reels?

Like, you're sucking at reels.

I think where I'll get to is I'll take content I've written and I'll make make them into reels and I'll try to do 10 in a day.

Cause usually like with something like a reel and then I'll send them to somebody else to edit and make look pretty and all that.

But if I can batch some reels, I think I can do them.

The challenge for me with YouTube was I couldn't, I didn't feel like I could batch it in a good way.

And I want it to be good.

Like I want it, like you have a successful podcast.

So the challenge for you is you, you can't really

experiment in isolation.

Like you have a brand.

So like you, you know, like if you've never done YouTube and you go, I'm going to do videos about my ferret and I'm going to grow a ferret community.

Great.

No, nobody knows you.

Like, that's awesome.

But the challenge for you is like you have a quality level to the things you've created.

And then somebody says, just do YouTube.

You want to do that at a quality level.

you don't want to do it at the amateur level of the person who who's filming their ferret yeah and so that's part of me that's part to me that's part of the tension so you know again I'll try to hire stuff I mean I sound like I'm Amish talking about I don't want to do YouTube like I get it sounds like I churn my own butter like I'm gonna do video I know people like video but I just know I haven't found the way I'm gonna engage with it yet and I'm gonna actively work on that and experiment with that but it's not gonna be me alone with a camera in here because like even setting up the light right is like an hour that I'm like, this is dumb.

Like, I hate this light.

The arm isn't right.

I bought the wrong like ring light.

What?

It doesn't fit my phone.

Like, there's, so I'm just, that's not, again, like, I know I sound like a thousand-year-old man who is Amish.

That's not going to be video.

I'm not, I'm going to be on video.

You can find me on YouTube.

Um, you can listen to my podcast, but it's just not my favorite.

See, I think your strength, honestly, is your sense of humor.

Like, you would be great, I think, in video, like in dialogue, because you're so funny.

You add like such a nice sense of, like, you add such a nice, like, levity to well.

Maybe I need like somebody to talk to.

Like, maybe I need somebody to talk to.

You could talk to me.

Yeah, exactly.

We should do it.

Let's knock out those videos.

Let's get them done right now.

You tell me the topic.

We'll go back and forth.

That's what I totally think so.

I think there was a reason why we got connected.

You're hilarious.

I find you hilarious.

Well, thanks for saying, yeah, that for me, it's funny.

I realized like 10 years ago, that was part of my niche.

When I communicate, like Chris Rock says, there's some topics people won't listen to unless they're laughing at the same time.

So I see humor as a way to share what might be a challenging topic.

Like overthinking could be a challenging topic for some people.

So if I can use humor, it gives them a chance to engage with it in a way they weren't expecting.

Because there's so many serious books about overthinking or so many kind of fuzzy, holistic that you go, but how do I do anything with this on a Tuesday?

Like this isn't, you know, like, what do I, but I live in the real, because some nonfiction self-help books are written and they're, they're technically true.

They're not practically true.

So they say, hey, if you just spend three hours a day working on your goal, you'll get your goal done.

Yeah, that's technically true, but it's not practically true because I'm a stay-at-home mom that has 17 minutes of free time.

And this advice just made me feel more guilty, like, and more behind.

So how do I, what does it look like?

And so for me, that's how I'm always approaching ideas is like, okay, how do I make this where somebody can actually use it and they can actually benefit from it?

The three, the three things that I teach about like when it comes to picking an idea, whether you're going to launch a blog, a book, a podcast, whatever, are you look for number one, like a personal passion.

You're personally connected to it.

Cause if, because if you don't have that, you won't be willing to do the hard work that's going to require.

The second thing is you look for a need.

Do people actually need this?

When I talk to people at events, when I'm seeing it online, my neighbors, do I see a need?

And the third is, is there a spot for me in the marketplace?

Like, can I put this somewhere in the market?

So like my book finish, I was terrible at finishing things.

I was a, I was a chronic starter.

And I wanted to know, can I go from being a chronic starter to a consistent finisher?

So, I was willing to personally invest years understanding that.

Second thing is, I had this book called Start, and all these people came up and were like, no offense, I liked your book, Start, but I've never had a problem starting.

Everyone can start.

How do I actually finish?

And so, I saw a need, and then I went to Amazon, which is my marketplace, and I looked, I put in the word finish, and the only thing that came up was dishwasher detergent because our culture over-celebrates the beginning and ignores the middle and the finish.

So, we say things like, well, begun is half done, and the hardest part of any journey is the first step.

That's not technically true.

Like, the middle is the hardest part.

We have launch parties, like at companies, they have launch parties, kickoff parties.

I've never been to a middle party, I've never had a manager say, Hey, we're at the worst part of the project.

Time for middle cake.

Like, where do people cheer at races?

At the beginning and at the end, the middle is hard and lonely.

That's

true.

Oh, my God.

Yeah, and so

once I had those three things, once I had those three things, I knew I'm going to write this book called Finish, and I think it's going to help a lot of people.

And same with soundtracks.

I am an overthinker.

Like, so I have a personal connection.

People need it.

And then I went online and every book was either serious or would say, stop doing it, stop doing it, stop doing it.

But I wanted to go, what if you could turn it from a super problem into a superpower?

Like, that would be really amazing if you could make your thoughts work for you, not against you.

That's an angle that I can fit into the marketplace.

And so then, so that's how I'm always looking for like with the next ideas.

Have I identified those three things?

Because the way I say it is like, if you have a personal passion

and

people actually need it, but it's already overserved in the market, that's a cake pop.

Like if you told me, John, I got this great new idea, I'm going to do cake pops.

I'd go, I have terrible news.

Like we've had them for 20 years.

Once they're in Starbucks, that like the need is over.

So if you have a passion and you, you check the market and you're like, nobody's serving it, but nobody actually needs it.

That's a hobby.

Like, I love that you have a hobby, but if people don't need it, that's just your personal hobby.

If you have a need you identify and you find a spot for yourself in the market, but you're not personally connected to it, you just created another day job for yourself.

Like, and it might be a little successful, but you're going to feel stuck.

Like, you just created another day job because there's no passion there.

But if you have all three, that's where I think you see people light up and create podcasts, books, businesses that they really enjoy and really end up thriving.

First of all, this this last two minutes has been amazing because you've said everything that you've said, I could, I wholeheartedly, like, that's exactly true.

Practically versus technically,

it's two separate things.

Oh, yeah.

It drives me nuts.

Like Instagram drives me nuts when I see some of the advice.

I'm like, but that's not practically true.

And my wife, my, my, my wife will say to me, John, I need you to remember because I'll compare myself to other people because I'm human too.

She'll go, that guy lives in LA and he's single and doesn't have kids and he works 900 hours a week.

And you have two teenage daughters, and we have a marriage of 21 years, and we have different commitments.

And so you can't compare his advice to your life or his life to your life.

And I'll go, oh, that's right.

That's where we do have like different things we're working on.

Like, I'm really like tomorrow morning at 5 a.m., we're driving to college orientation.

So for the next two days, I'm going to be at college orientation.

And it's not that I'm going to miss work.

That's my job.

Like, that's the best job is I get to launch this daughter into college like let's go but it also means that if i was taking advice of you have to work 14 hours a day on your grind or your hustle then i'm going to feel inadequate but i have to remember like no i have two kids and i have one shot at their childhood like you can fast forward childhood you can't rewind it so like i want to do a good launch like that like i'm launching books obviously but like i'm on also launching kids and like we say all the time we're not raising kids we're raising adults like we're helping them practice to be adults So like, let's focus on that.

What does that look like?

So again, that for me is so important.

And I try to keep that in mind when I get stuck comparing myself to people that have, and it's not to say that that person isn't doing their life really well.

It's just they're shaped differently.

Like we shouldn't, we, I shouldn't compare myself to them.

But you know what?

That's exactly, but I want to say something.

I'm very happy to hear.

I'm actually surprised to hear you say that.

I feel that as a woman, as a girl, that's a mom is much more what happens, right?

Because it's like,

have two kids also.

I got to do all these, I get lots of different things.

And like the mom guilt is a real thing.

I've never really heard

a husband, a father, have father guilt.

I've always, I hear about mom guilt.

I hear a lot about mom guilt.

But what happens is, again, I also compare and I'm like, well, how is she?

And like, people have to talk me off the ledge.

They're like, well, she has no kids.

You're a mom and you want to be a good mom.

That's your priority.

Yeah.

And kids take time.

Like good kids take good time.

Like that's like that's the bottom, like that's part of it.

Yeah.

So I, I mean, I think that's 100% true.

And I think you're right, moms, like, dad guilt isn't even really a phrase in the English language.

Like, I would, like, I always say, dad's default is that we're amazing.

Like, dad's like, I'm killing it.

Like, like, yeah, my kid got a misdemeanor.

It's not a felony.

I'm a pretty good dad.

You know, like, dad's coming to the party already pretty proud.

And so, yeah, I think that's part of the challenge.

Um, again, like, when we don't know the whole story, like when we don't, because like sometimes you'll go, like, oh man, like that you're just seeing what's inside the lens, You're not seeing outside the lens.

And, and so, yeah, and you miss this really amazing thing you're getting to do.

Like, there's only two people on the planet that call you mom, like just two, like, and you're raising humans, like you're in charge of humans, like whole humans.

And you go, oh, you're right.

Like, I'm going to do every part of what I do well.

And I'm going to lean into it.

I'm going to do my best, but I'm also going to see that as a huge privilege and a huge launch.

And, you know, all the things.

And I'm talking to me too.

Like, I don't have this figured out.

It's messy at our house too.

I know, like, tomorrow my wife's going to be like, hey, just so we're clear, if I see you on your phone, like, if I try to sneak in some like, just one real quick email in the middle, like, we had seven minutes of break in the orientation.

I thought I'd like, she is going to be like, don't you dare.

So it's not that I'm perfect at this, like, but we're on the same boat trying to figure it out.

I think that, I think the moral of the story here is don't compare yourself to social media because that becomes, that's the, that's the evil that is, it's, it's a constant thing that you're, it, That to me is like where everything kind of goes awry.

Yeah.

Well, and the expectation of like you, you'll never feel like you're creating enough content.

That's the other thing.

Like somebody else.

That's it.

Yeah.

And the joke I always used to do is like, there's entrepreneurs that have like 500 employees.

And so like, and they're successful.

And what'll happen is you'll compare yourself to that person, but you would never drive down the highway and see a building that had 500 desks and go, that building is doing such a better job than me.

Like, I'm not keeping up with that building.

You're like, yeah, they have 500 employees.

Like, you should be producing less content.

Like, they have a full-time videographer who travels with them constantly.

Like, that's the, and so, but again, like, exactly.

Social media is so squirrely, you go, again, you would never see a five-story building and go, man, that building's killing me right now.

They're really outperforming me.

I'm such a failure.

But you'll do that on social media, which is such a, such a weird thing to me.

Totally.

Your perspective is great.

I really, I, I really love your perspective.

I really love it.

and I know I'm keeping you forever.

We can do this again.

We can, we can totally we'll do it live.

We'll do it live in LA.

Okay, good.

Leave me with one thing overthinking.

Let's just finish with this book for soundtracks.

Give me one other thing that we haven't covered from the book.

I'll give you one last, one last soundtrack switch up for you.

So somebody asked me the other day, they were like, how do I get over fear?

Like, how do I get over it?

And I said, you don't get over it.

You go through it.

And that's the switch.

That's a soundtrack switch.

Instead of over, you say through.

Because sometimes we tell people, you can be fearless.

You can be fearless.

You can be fearless.

I don't believe that's true.

Because every time you do something new at a new level, there's a new size fear.

So the first time I spoke to 10 people, I had 10 person size fear.

And I worked on it.

I did it.

I did the reps, whatever, got over it, got through it.

And then I did 100 people and I had 100 person size fear and 1,000 people, 10,000 people, you know, on and on and on.

There's always going to be fear.

You don't get over it because that's perfectionism, as if you climb a wall once.

You go through it.

And then the second soundtrack you use is that fear gets a voice, not a vote.

You can learn from fear.

Fear is trying to educate you about something.

We shouldn't always demonize it.

It gets a voice, but it doesn't get a vote.

It doesn't get to sit at the head of the table and say, you don't get to do this.

You're not the one to do this.

Who are you to do this?

It doesn't get a vote.

It gets a voice, not a vote.

So I'm always reminding myself, my kids, anybody I talk to, fear gets a voice, not a vote.

gets a voice, not a vote.

And I think that's way more practical than be fearless.

Because I think when you tell yourself you're going to be fearless, the minute you have fear and you're going to, you feel ashamed and like you're the one doing the thing wrong versus going, oh, here's fear, gets a voice.

It's trying to tell me something I can learn from.

Oh, if it's just toxic, no, I'm not going to listen to it.

It definitely doesn't get a vote either.

So that's what I'd say.

I love that.

Thank you.

And

that's great.

And I appreciate your time.

I don't know what that is, but I really do appreciate your time.

And I really enjoyed meeting you.

This was really.

Yeah, this was fun.

This is super fun.

You're great.

Oh, I mean, where could people find this book?

You've got a thousand books coming.

I mean, everywhere on Amazon, I guess, with people.

Yeah.

So ACUF.me is my website.

It's just A-C-U-F-F.m-E.

And then my podcast is All It Takes is a Goal.

And if you only listen to one episode, I interviewed a woman named Colleen Berry who lost her job, had to get four different jobs to survive, became a secretary, and decided I'm going to turn this into something else, changed her mindset.

And she's now the CEO of the company.

So it's a really fascinating story about somebody who said, okay, I have to deliver pizzas.

I have to be her secretary.

She was a a cinematographer before this and had to rebuild her life.

And she changed her mindset.

And now she's the CEO.

So I love pointing the finger at folks like that,

especially moms, single moms that are like, okay, I'm figuring this out.

And now she's the CEO.

So all it takes is a goal as a podcast.

And then Acough.me is all my stuff.

I love it.

And by the way, isn't that story in your book?

Oh, yeah.

I started the first chapter with her.

I love that story some more.

I did too.

And then I interviewed her.

Yeah, she's a baller.

I love that story.

That's why when you said that, I was like, oh, I love that story.

Oh, that's great.

Yeah, that's great.

Thanks for having me on.

Habits and hustle, time to get it rolling.

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