Leroy

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Speaker 13 Previously on Happy Face.

Speaker 26 How did Keith get away with it for so long?

Speaker 27 Laverne A. Pavlanak is accused of four counts of aggravated murder, rape, sex abuse, kidnapping, and felony murder.
For the death of Tanya A.

Speaker 27 Bennett, Pavlanak fed police anonymous tips that led to the arrest of her longtime boyfriend, John A. Soznovsky.

Speaker 29 Laverne was trying to get rid of her boyfriend. She convinced him by saying she had participated in the murder with John Soznovsky.

Speaker 31 If it weren't for the anonymous letter, the case might well have remained forgotten. Quote, on or about January 20th, 1990, I picked up Sonia Bennett and took her home.

Speaker 31 The name is Tanya, not Sonia Bennett. And she was killed, according to the experts who examined the body on the night of January 21st, not the 20th.

Speaker 26 Melissa and I reached out to Jim McNeely, a retired detective from the Multnomah County Sheriff's Department.

Speaker 30 He knew what he was talking about, and he had information on those murders that hadn't been in the papers.

Speaker 26 Jesperson kind of saw you as a partner in this.

Speaker 30 We were conspiring to prove that he was guilty.

Speaker 26 There's always been one person Melissa has been afraid to meet. the son of Jesperson's last victim, Don Findlay.

Speaker 26 We spoke for a couple of hours and I was finally finally able to convince him to meet you.

Speaker 26 There's an almost numbing quality to hearing Keith describe his crimes. The details are almost too horrific to fully absorb.

Speaker 26 We know the way he tied women up, how he beat, raped, and stopped them from breathing. And yet, some seem more shocked to hear how he tortured a cat than how many women's lives he took.

Speaker 26 But over a period of five years, from 1990 to 1995, Keith murdered at least eight women. His last victim was Julianne Winningham.

Speaker 26 But Keith Hunter Jesperson decimated countless lives beyond the ones he took, including that of Julie's son, Don Fendley.

Speaker 26 I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco, and this is Happy Face.

Speaker 13 From I, the Creation of a Serial Killer. by Jack Olsen.

Speaker 13 The morning after I killed Julie Winningham, my eighth victim, I drove to Vancouver, Washington to get my driver's license renewed.

Speaker 13 On my way, I thought about moving Julie's body farther from the road, but I decided it was too much bother.

Speaker 13 I drove straight through to Baker City, Oregon, and played a little cribbage.

Speaker 13 I made a few bucks and hit on some of the women. I gave a couple of Julie's old coats to a cute girl from Boise.

Speaker 26 So, who is Don Findley, and why are you so afraid to meet him?

Speaker 34 Don Findlay is the son of Julie Winningham, my father's last victim.

Speaker 34 He was present the entire trial of his mother's murder, and he faced my father in court. I first heard about him by reading the Oregonian and his statements in court.

Speaker 34 I

Speaker 34 instantly wanted to meet him decades ago and have made attempts to reach out to him and been rejected.

Speaker 34 I had heard that he wanted to do the things that my dad did to his mom to me.

Speaker 13 Where did you hear that?

Speaker 34 From a producer. When I had the show Monster in My Family, The whole premise of the show is to connect perpetrators' family members with victims' family members.

Speaker 34 And the number one person I wanted to meet was Don. So I had a producer reach out to him and that producer had relayed the information to me that he

Speaker 34 had thought about that, that he thought about harming me in the same fashion that my dad had harmed his mom.

Speaker 26 Because he wanted revenge

Speaker 26 by taking something from your dad.

Speaker 26 I think that he

Speaker 26 vilified you quite a bit and he thought that you had this perfect, wonderful life and that you had never suffered suffered because of the harm your father had inflicted upon people.

Speaker 26 And I told him a little bit about your work and about the fact that you really wanted,

Speaker 26 you've spent your entire adult life trying to atone for your dad's crimes and sins.

Speaker 26 And I think that he had never really looked at the ramifications of your dad's actions on his family and his children.

Speaker 34 And so

Speaker 34 he decided.

Speaker 26 He was touch and go,

Speaker 26 but he said that he'd be willing to try. I mean, he never gave me a guarantee that he was actually going to show up.

Speaker 34 My hope is that

Speaker 34 it's several things.

Speaker 34 Honestly, my real hope is I just want to say I'm sorry. I want him to know

Speaker 34 how sorry I am

Speaker 28 for what my father did.

Speaker 34 It's just true,

Speaker 34 true sadness for what

Speaker 34 happened.

Speaker 34 And I

Speaker 34 can't offer any restitution or bring his mom back.

Speaker 34 And my sorrow for his mom's loss isn't enough. There's nothing I could give him,

Speaker 34 but I definitely want him to know how sorry I am.

Speaker 28 I think

Speaker 34 that's the best I can offer.

Speaker 28 That's all I can offer.

Speaker 28 Let it happen.

Speaker 36 Look at, I mean, this is the place they picked.

Speaker 35 I mean, this is...

Speaker 35 This is adorable.

Speaker 36 Okay, so we're looking at the most adorable little seaside cafe that's actually sitting on the water. And to get there, you have to walk on this kind of metal grate

Speaker 36 that rocks back and forth. The cafe is this cheerful turquoise blue.
It sits not by the water, but on the water.

Speaker 36 I think it's going to be an interesting meeting.

Speaker 35 So he picked it. He picked this location.

Speaker 36 This feels very friendly.

Speaker 37 I don't know.

Speaker 36 I'm cheerful. It's peaceful.

Speaker 35 It's hard because

Speaker 35 I don't know what I'm going to walk into.

Speaker 38 Oh my gosh, look at the Oh my gosh.

Speaker 35 Oh my gosh, walking on this.

Speaker 38 It's like walking on stilts.

Speaker 38 I'll be right back.

Speaker 26 Don asked that we not roll audio until after they'd had a chance to meet.

Speaker 35 I think that's him.

Speaker 35 I think he's behind me.

Speaker 35 He's got his arms crossed. I'm going to turn my back.
to him so he can meet with Lauren.

Speaker 35 I'm glad Lauren's meeting with him first.

Speaker 35 He looks tense.

Speaker 35 I like the location he picked.

Speaker 26 I gestured for Melissa to come over and she had to cross this metal plank to get back from where she was standing on the water to me.

Speaker 26 And Melissa is shaking so hard that the entire thing is trembling as she's walking because she's so nervous and she walks up to Don and without saying anything

Speaker 26 he opens up his arms and they embrace

Speaker 26 and Melissa just starts sobbing it was one of the most

Speaker 26 beautiful moments I think I've gotten to witness as a producer. there was such a vulnerability and strength on both sides of that hug.

Speaker 26 And it's as if it ripped open a scab on Melissa's soul. She just sobbed.

Speaker 10 God, it was.

Speaker 34 When he hugged me and just stretched his arms and he hugged me, it felt like

Speaker 34 the wash of forgiveness purified my heart. Like it just melted away my anxiety,

Speaker 34 an anxiety that was interwoven in my fibers of my being. Like it, I didn't realize how tense I've been walking my life until he hugged me.

Speaker 34 And it was like this relaxation and solace that I've never felt before.

Speaker 34 And it was something that I thought I could seek in religion and find that solace through a forgiveness of a loving God or entity you know but

Speaker 34 when

Speaker 34 Dawn hugged me it was like all is well

Speaker 34 the past is washed away

Speaker 34 and I'm free I'm forgiven and free to walk my life as I need to walk

Speaker 38 That was a lot.

Speaker 37 Yeah.

Speaker 14 If you're going to do it, you got to do it right or don't do it at all. Yeah.

Speaker 14 And it's got to come out, girl.

Speaker 14 Sorry. And it's going to be the hardest.

Speaker 14 Yeah. Because this whole time, I can only imagine what your thoughts are.
Sitting back, like I said, I've put myself in your shoes. And I can't imagine.

Speaker 14 But maybe I am the missing link.

Speaker 35 And I've, you know,

Speaker 35 I can't even put myself in your shoes. Like, I don't even know.

Speaker 35 I don't know how you did it. I don't know how you're here.
Like, I.

Speaker 26 We settled into the cafe, but for more privacy, we decided to head back outside to a quiet bench overlooking the water.

Speaker 14 I'm in a better spot. What questions do you have first?

Speaker 14 I mean, I'm sure you've been pondering.

Speaker 28 A lot.

Speaker 35 I think what I would like to know first is:

Speaker 35 I briefly met your mom.

Speaker 14 Okay.

Speaker 35 Yeah, I'd I'd like to, whatever you want to tell me about your mom and

Speaker 14 well,

Speaker 14 my mom stayed here in Camas with her mom and was tossed between her dad who lived in California where I was born and raised.

Speaker 14 She wasn't an educated woman. She was

Speaker 14 a very energetic, positive, adventurous, walked her own path. but because of her uneducation, she had to do certain things to

Speaker 14 get by in life. I mean,

Speaker 14 back in the day, she supposedly had married a truck driver just as big as your father, but he was from Arkansas.

Speaker 14 And they got divorced.

Speaker 14 So my mom had me.

Speaker 14 And she wasn't around a lot in my life because she was on her own little journey and was scared of the family.

Speaker 36 Who raised you?

Speaker 14 My My dad's mom, my mom's stepmom, and my mom's dad.

Speaker 14 Why my dad worked all the time.

Speaker 36 What did he do?

Speaker 14 My dad was a

Speaker 14 regional manager for an auditing company and

Speaker 14 they got divorced. Dad got custody, mom wasn't around.

Speaker 14 And she traveled the United States and liked to do her own thing.

Speaker 14 Everybody loved her. She wasn't a drunk.
She wasn't an alcoholic or drug addict.

Speaker 14 She,

Speaker 14 this is the stuff the media don't know.

Speaker 28 Right.

Speaker 14 What I'm about to tell you. No one knows this.
I haven't told anybody. Because

Speaker 14 they ask, but they don't. It's all been about, unfortunately, it's been about you and your father when these people tell me what they're.
promising me, right?

Speaker 14 I was under the influence that I'm supposed to help people, but the little 30-second segments aren't long enough to help people.

Speaker 26 One of the things Don wanted to clarify that he believes the media got absolutely wrong was his mother Julie's relationship with Keith. As we know, Keith broke his rules for Julie.

Speaker 26 It was the first time he'd killed someone he dated and really knew. In fact, when Keith introduced Julie to Melissa or talked to Melissa about her, he'd referred to Julie as his fiancée.

Speaker 26 But Don takes issue with this.

Speaker 14 My mom was living in Utah.

Speaker 14 I talked to her on February 11th because her birthday was February 12th and mine was February 20th.

Speaker 14 There was no talk of your father. My mom was not in a relationship.
She was living with a girlfriend and a kid.

Speaker 14 She was telling me that she was on her way down here to Camus

Speaker 14 to visit with her mom.

Speaker 14 She had met your father in 1992 prior.

Speaker 14 And she knew how to work the truck stops because she drove truck and did her thing.

Speaker 14 And he offered her a ride to here.

Speaker 14 He must not have had any pickups because they hung out in town for a couple weeks.

Speaker 28 Right.

Speaker 14 Okay. They were not in a relationship.

Speaker 26 You can hear in Don's voice how angry he is about the idea that Keith and his mother were ever together. There is also a pain that comes from the constant reminders of his mother everywhere he goes.

Speaker 26 He visits places she frequented, and he drives past the scene of her murder on a daily basis.

Speaker 28 Every day

Speaker 28 of my life since then,

Speaker 28 I try out.

Speaker 28 I have to drive by it.

Speaker 14 Every day I go fishing in the beautiful gorge.

Speaker 28 I gotta drive right right by it.

Speaker 28 I didn't run.

Speaker 26 I faced it head on.

Speaker 28 I kept crushing my heart.

Speaker 13 A long-haul trucker told a Clark County Sheriff's Office detective by phone that he strangled Julianne Winningham, 41. while raping her in the sleeper car of his rig after gagging her with duct tape.

Speaker 13 Winningham's nude body was found March 11th, dumped down a bank of a viewpoint along Highway 14 in the Columbia River Gorge, four miles east of Washugal.

Speaker 26 The scenery wasn't the only reminder of his mother's murder. So was his name.
After his mom's death, Dom changed his name to Leroy. It's actually part of why he was so difficult for me to track down.

Speaker 26 I had to go through Leroy to get to Don.

Speaker 26 We asked him a little bit about why he chose that name.

Speaker 14 I was living in San Diego, working at a car wash, had friends in bands, and just living a fun life. I was smoking pot, doing drugs.
I was up for three days when I got the phone call at work.

Speaker 14 I went ballistic.

Speaker 28 I

Speaker 14 pulled off kitchen sinks, punched wood, then I walked home and I fell in the middle of the main street and cried.

Speaker 14 So this is where Leroy comes into play.

Speaker 14 I came up here for the trials. I got a job, telemarketing.
They asked me if I had a nickname. I said Leroy.
They put Leroy up on the board.

Speaker 14 So I started telling people my name was Leroy, even though they're seeing me every day on the news. I mean,

Speaker 14 not only did I not know anybody, but I found a job and a place to live to be able to see this to the end. My family was not there for me.
No one's ever asked me if I was okay.

Speaker 35 I want to know what happened when you found out you came up here. Why did you have to go to the morgue?

Speaker 14 Well, the reason I had to go to the morgue was because my mom wasn't around a lot in my life.

Speaker 40 And

Speaker 14 I had to physically see her.

Speaker 14 That way to know that she's dead or otherwise I would still think she's on a you know traveling around around doing her thing because we didn't talk that often, she wasn't around a lot.

Speaker 35 I'm going back to how you had to see your mom.

Speaker 26 I can't imagine you saw her after what,

Speaker 28 yeah.

Speaker 32 Do you, I don't even know what she looked like. Yeah, I want to, I want to know, I want to know

Speaker 35 because you have to see it. I want to know what you saw.

Speaker 28 All right, well,

Speaker 14 I show up,

Speaker 14 It's underneath the jail. It's really like the movies.

Speaker 40 Long, long, long, long, long, long, long.

Speaker 14 They open up a room. White walls.

Speaker 14 Silver table.

Speaker 14 My mom has a sheet covered up to her neck.

Speaker 14 I see

Speaker 14 from her face a mark from here to here. this wide

Speaker 14 as black as day's night.

Speaker 14 I see shrub marks on her cheeks from where she rolled down through the berry briars.

Speaker 14 I also see

Speaker 14 the top of my mom's head just sitting on top of her head because they did the autopsy on her brain. So it was just

Speaker 14 there.

Speaker 14 That's the last time I saw my mom.

Speaker 35 What did he do with those images?

Speaker 14 Mask them.

Speaker 28 They go away.

Speaker 28 She was such a beautiful lady.

Speaker 28 He stuck his fist down my mother's throat to make sure she was dead.

Speaker 28 Duct taped her.

Speaker 28 Suffocated her.

Speaker 28 raped her, carried him around in the cab of his truck,

Speaker 28 drove up the mountain and tossed her like a fucking piece of garbage. And the next time I see her, she's like that.

Speaker 28 I truly can't explain the anger and hate I've had over the years towards this.

Speaker 28 But

Speaker 28 I had to put it past me.

Speaker 32 I had to, because otherwise I'm not going to be happy. And I need to be happy.

Speaker 13 I was wearing just my shoes and a shirt when I headed east. I knew she would wake up soon, and then she'd really know terror.

Speaker 13 I braked hard at a stop sign and heard her grunt. She tried to get into the front passenger seat.
but fell to the floor and cut her forehead on the seat pedestal. A little pool of blood formed.

Speaker 13 I reached down and patted her on the back and said, Nice of you to join me, Julie.

Speaker 13 And just stay there until I stop up ahead.

Speaker 13 And then you'll find out what's going to happen to you.

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Speaker 48 Breaking news, everybody, not everything is terrible. I repeat, not everything is terrible.

Speaker 52 The ripple effect effect with Jenna Kim Jones is proof that the internet, it hasn't ruined humanity entirely. It's hosted by me, Jenna.

Speaker 51 I'm a comedian, so you know it's going to be funny and uplifting, of course.

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Speaker 50 So put down your doom scroller and pick up your faith in humanity and join me jenna for the ripple effect it's a reminder that you can start a ripple that changes everything you really can listen to the ripple effect with jenna kim jones on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts

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Speaker 26 Melissa and Don had been wrestling with the past for so long, trying to come to terms with its impact on their lives. And they were both eager to share their experiences.

Speaker 14 I don't know what you know.

Speaker 32 I don't know much.

Speaker 14 All my other people. I don't know what you want to know.
The feds, everybody, they figured out what trucking company he worked for. And by the way, I see that trucking company every day on the road.

Speaker 14 So you can imagine my thoughts going through.

Speaker 32 You know. I see it too.
Okay. I see it too.

Speaker 14 And it's got to be hard for us.

Speaker 14 So. They found out what trucking company he worked for.
He was on a run. He was going to go pick up a load in New Mexico.
Okay?

Speaker 14 So they called Haney.

Speaker 14 They said he's going to be in New Mexico. The local police went there with the feds because it's out of jurisdiction.
Did the blood, urine, and

Speaker 14 something else sample for him.

Speaker 14 They have to bring it back here to test it.

Speaker 14 Before they get back,

Speaker 14 he calls and

Speaker 14 says he tried to kill himself by eating a bottle of Tylenol.

Speaker 14 They go back, they arrest him, and the trials start.

Speaker 35 The detectives came up to Spokane and they questioned my mom and then they they didn't tell her anything.

Speaker 39 Then she said

Speaker 36 to my brother, sister and I that your dad's in jail.

Speaker 37 Then my brother's like, for what? And

Speaker 39 she said, for murder.

Speaker 39 I just remember just feeling like this is not this is not not real and uh

Speaker 38 i went into my uh

Speaker 32 my cot and i laid down on it and i just cried the whole night

Speaker 38 and wondered who it was what happened how did it happen and and i pictured a million different things in my head and and

Speaker 39 i wanted answers

Speaker 39 Nobody would just tell me.

Speaker 28 I just wanted to know.

Speaker 39 And that's why I started looking at the Orgonian and reading everything. And it was hard to read it, but in a way, it was kind of

Speaker 38 a blessing in disguise because I don't know if I could have handled hearing it from your words in real life.

Speaker 39 I think just reading it,

Speaker 39 there was a state of removal.

Speaker 38 You know, I was somewhat removed when I could read from a distance what was happening over here and what was happening with your life.

Speaker 10 my

Speaker 10 broken brain

Speaker 10 was there

Speaker 10 before

Speaker 10 I

Speaker 10 made

Speaker 10 this born

Speaker 10 range right here, 9910 store. Turn right.

Speaker 14 Pick it right. This is where it happened.
What is this? This is the spot. It used to be an empty lot until two years ago.

Speaker 38 I thought she was found on a road.

Speaker 28 Hold on.

Speaker 32 I'll show you.

Speaker 14 If you stop right here, this was an empty lot and his 18-wheeler was parked right here.

Speaker 14 The bar he was at is just not even a quarter of a mile up the road. My grandmother,

Speaker 14 my mom's mom, lived three blocks up the road. So his truck was parked here.

Speaker 14 This is where he did what he did to my mom. Right here in this lot.

Speaker 35 It was a parking lot though.

Speaker 14 Yeah, parking lot. You know, there was no store here.
There was no nothing here. His truck is right here.

Speaker 14 My mom comes from the bar up the road. They talk about the money issue.

Speaker 28 He...

Speaker 35 What was the money issue?

Speaker 32 What was the issue?

Speaker 32 Yeah, Tony, explain that to me.

Speaker 14 So, basically, after listening to your father and saying how...

Speaker 14 One of the victims asked him for money after he was already done with her.

Speaker 14 That reminded him of his wife and that's what made him snap and I remember him saying this in one of his interviews well my mom went to the bartender and he was too busy my mom needed some money came to Jess person

Speaker 14 your dad my mom had gotten into a car accident

Speaker 14 your dad's signature was on the bill of sale

Speaker 14 so my mom came to town with him they were hanging out

Speaker 14 I'm assuming my mom had a car my mom was working

Speaker 14 something happened

Speaker 14 she went to your father for money asking him nicely because she wasn't a you know a gold digger or anything and he snapped

Speaker 14 where we're going next is on highway 14 he drove six miles out on highway 14 pulled over and threw her out without no rings or nothing, just stark ass naked.

Speaker 14 And then came back, got his trailer and drove off to New Mexico

Speaker 14 but your dad your last freedom was your dad in this town for three weeks give or take did your grandmother ever say that they were talking about getting married again my mom would have never got remarried I know it for a fact.

Speaker 14 That came up through your father. Because my mom, as you can see, she was a very beautiful woman.
She was a kind-hearted, good soul.

Speaker 14 And that's why your dad, you said, he broke every rule that he ever had set for victims that he was going to do this to, right?

Speaker 28 Right.

Speaker 14 My mom broke every rule because of her soul, her heart. You know, he felt something different with her.

Speaker 43 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 44 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 44 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved, so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 45 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 47 That's pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 48 Breaking news, everybody. Not everything is terrible.
I repeat, not everything is terrible.

Speaker 52 The ripple effect with Jenna Kim Jones is proof that the internet hasn't ruined humanity entirely. It's hosted by me, Jenna.

Speaker 51 I'm a comedian, so you know it's going to be funny and uplifting, of course.

Speaker 51 Each episode of The Ripple Effect features real stories of kindness, of barbers changing more than just their clients' haircut, of the secret life of leftover hotel soap, of vending machines that dispense just the help that someone might need.

Speaker 52 It's like magic, you guys.

Speaker 50 So put down your doom scroller and pick up your faith in humanity and join me, Jenna, for the ripple effect. It's a reminder that you can start a ripple that changes everything.

Speaker 54 You really can.

Speaker 50 Listen to the ripple effect with Jenna Kim Jones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 4 Making the holidays magical for everyone on your list?

Speaker 8 It's no small feat.

Speaker 1 But with TJ Maxx, your magic multiplies. With quality finds arriving daily through Christmas Eve, you'll save on Lux Cashmere the latest tech, toys, and more.

Speaker 8 So you can check off every name on your list and treat yourself to a holiday look that'll turn heads.

Speaker 9 Now you know where to go to make all that holiday magic.

Speaker 5 It's TJ Maxx, of course.

Speaker 7 It's shaping up to be a very magical holiday.

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Speaker 17 Do your work with ease and speed.

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Speaker 19 Do hours of research in an instant.

Speaker 20 With key insights from an AI assistant.

Speaker 21 Pick a template with a click.

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Speaker 26 The truth, when it comes to Keith, is always in question.

Speaker 26 Weeks later, Melissa still had doubts about the nature of Julie and Keith's relationship.

Speaker 26 Our producer, Noel, also made the trip to Washington State to meet Don.

Speaker 13 This idea of Julie being his fiancée kind of keeps coming up, and it's sort of like been called into question a few different ways by her son.

Speaker 13 For example, he, Don, right off the bat, said that's not true.

Speaker 13 But there's a lot of, he said she said stuff in all of these tales. You kind of were skeptical of that too.

Speaker 34 The only thing that makes me not skeptical of them being together is the last time I saw my dad.

Speaker 34 The last time I saw my dad was at a diner, and he brought up that he was going to buy me a car, a red Pontiac,

Speaker 34 and that he was going to buy a house on the beach and that Julie and him would live there and that I could move in with him.

Speaker 34 And so the sense that he was putting this future with Julie made me think that he saw something different in Julie and that he wanted to settle down and get married.

Speaker 13 But do you remember what we discovered? That that wasn't his dream, that was her dream.

Speaker 14 And Don kind of talked about how this is something she always talked about wanting to have her son back with her, living in the beautiful place of Southern California.

Speaker 14 Because my mom and him traveled from Utah to here and they knew each other prior. prior.

Speaker 14 So he knew her dream.

Speaker 35 So he was telling me your mom's dream the last time I saw her.

Speaker 34 Her last words to my dad were what about your kids when she was pleading for her life and I know she was trying to appeal to the man and not the monster.

Speaker 34 The fact that she was saying that

Speaker 34 makes me you know obviously I know why. she was pleading what about your children you know to try to ground them back into hey you're a dad.

Speaker 26 But she was, and this is, again, this is your father's version.

Speaker 34 Yeah, we don't know what her last words really were.

Speaker 26 And in the Jack Oltson book, your father claims that she was saying, hey, wait, you know, what about your children? I was going to be basically their mother.

Speaker 26 And one of his final

Speaker 26 insults to her is, do you think I would let you raise my kids? That she wasn't good enough.

Speaker 26 But again, it's this ongoing theme that you've pointed out that your dad has to degrade all of his victims in some way, shape, or form, that they had it coming.

Speaker 34 Absolutely. So the truth is, I don't know.
What we do know is that Julie was murdered by my dad. Her title of fiancé or girlfriend or friend is not relevant, really, I think.

Speaker 13 I mean, I think it's relevant in that it's the one that he interacted with outside of just a killer-victim relationship, at least as far as what we know.

Speaker 34 Well, I know they were friends. I think that's what they were friends for years.

Speaker 34 And that's what I think haunts me more than the fiancé title: is that this was a multi-year relationship, not

Speaker 34 one of his fleeting girlfriend situations or someone he barely knew. And if he could do that to her, he could do that to anybody.

Speaker 13 From I, The Creation of a Serial Killer by Jack Olson.

Speaker 13 I said,

Speaker 13 you don't love me, Julie. You never have.

Speaker 13 She sniffed and said, what about your children? I was going to look after your kids.

Speaker 3 I laughed.

Speaker 13 I said, you can't even look after yourself.

Speaker 13 How could I trust you with my kids?

Speaker 13 I was thinking, how do I keep running into these kind of women? All this time, she's staring at me, the tears in her eyes.

Speaker 13 I removed the tape around her ankles,

Speaker 10 but I left the tape on her arms, so she couldn't go after my eyes with her long fingernails.

Speaker 35 I want to ask, but you don't have to answer.

Speaker 32 You're fine. Okay.

Speaker 26 What were your mom's last words?

Speaker 35 Was that said? No.

Speaker 36 Have you wondered that?

Speaker 14 I've never thought about that for the simple fact of maybe

Speaker 14 that the fact that she was duct taped and suffocated and didn't have a last word. So I've never thought about what my mom's last thoughts or words were.

Speaker 14 In my head, she asked him for money and that made him snap. And that's how my mom ended up dead.
So that is my interpretation.

Speaker 35 My mom said something yesterday when

Speaker 35 he's he tries to shame my mom by publishing their intimacy, their sex life.

Speaker 35 And

Speaker 35 I said to my mom, I'm like, doesn't that make you feel victimized? You know, like that dad's doing this. And she said, well, it's not true.

Speaker 35 And I thought, yeah, we only have his word for what happened because he was the only person there and the person who did that.

Speaker 14 And so. But I believe what he did to my mom is true because of the way his actions and his wording.
And now after you telling me how your father is, that's why he was so specific in court.

Speaker 37 Yeah.

Speaker 14 I mean, can you imagine my rage hearing this man say he stuck his fist down my mom's throat to make sure she was dead?

Speaker 28 No.

Speaker 35 No.

Speaker 14 Can't imagine. And then I left her in the back of my truck for eight to twelve hours before I disposed of her body.

Speaker 35 So the autopsy confirmed that

Speaker 14 I came up here on an airplane and I went to every bar across this whole city, all the way, looking for your father.

Speaker 14 Didn't know who did it because they didn't know at this time because this was less than 24 hours after finding my mom.

Speaker 14 I went on a mission to every bar.

Speaker 38 Who are you looking for?

Speaker 38 Who did you think you were looking for?

Speaker 14 Be 100% real with you, I don't know.

Speaker 14 Like I said, I literally had been up for three days, a day prior.

Speaker 35 You were just going in hoping that

Speaker 35 you would just see somebody and you would know.

Speaker 14 I'm assuming I can't answer that question because it's so long ago, you know what I mean?

Speaker 14 But I remember one night in the beginning singing, karaoke, Pat Benatar, singing, hit me with your best shot, like to the whole, you know, hit hit me, come on, bring it on. You know what I mean?

Speaker 14 I'm facing this head on, you know what I mean.

Speaker 14 You think you got something for me? Bring it on, bring it on, bring it on.

Speaker 26 Julie was found absolutely by chance when a local resident stopped to take a scenic picture by the winding roadside where she'd been tossed, discovering her naked and beaten body.

Speaker 14 Imagine, um, so here here comes the 21 mile, keep going.

Speaker 14 I know it all.

Speaker 14 See that turnout right there?

Speaker 14 Not this one, but the next one?

Speaker 14 Because you got to think about it. He has an 18-wheeler truck, so he has to have space to turn around, right? Right.
To go back and get his trailer.

Speaker 14 Yeah, and if he goes any farther, he's in Discamania County.

Speaker 14 So

Speaker 14 he pulls over,

Speaker 14 right? now. You got to understand the hillside is 20-some years different than it is now.
Mm-hmm. So he pulls his truck over.
This is where they found my mom's cigarette butts and stuff. And

Speaker 14 so what he basically told me was after he did all that,

Speaker 14 he opened up the door and threw her down there like a rag doll.

Speaker 14 Right down there. And if you look.

Speaker 10 Let's go out there.

Speaker 14 Imagine these trees right here not overgrown 20 years ago, right? Someone's stopping to take a picture. He just happens to live up on the hill.

Speaker 14 He stops to take a picture, looks down this terrain, and sees my mom.

Speaker 14 So your dad pulled over right here, disposed of her.

Speaker 26 Then he would have had to get over this barrier, wouldn't he?

Speaker 14 Well, if you think about this, your dad's truck is an 18-wheeler, correct? Your dad is 250 pounds at the time. He knows how to drive a truck.
He can get this close enough,

Speaker 14 open the door. Your dad could throw 100 pounds like it's nothing, I'm sure.

Speaker 28 Right.

Speaker 14 Tumbled down.

Speaker 14 Remember, I told you the brush marks on her cheeks?

Speaker 38 Yeah.

Speaker 14 It's from this. It's from this.

Speaker 14 So I came up here, I came kicking bushes.

Speaker 14 I came looking for anything I could find just out of sheer, I don't know what.

Speaker 36 And this is really thick.

Speaker 14 Yeah, like I said, 20 years.

Speaker 35 Yeah, this is built up.

Speaker 14 It probably wasn't as high, you know what I mean? The toss wouldn't have been as far, and they would have never have found her.

Speaker 14 How would they have found her? By the grace of God that you were saying earlier doesn't exist, he made that man stop and take a picture. Because no one ever stops here.
No one.

Speaker 35 No, because there's not really a scenic view either of the river. because the trees are blocking the view to even take a picture.
Like this wouldn't be where I would stop to take a picture.

Speaker 35 This isn't scenic at all.

Speaker 14 So what made that person stop to take a picture who lives right up here every day?

Speaker 35 It is strange that they would just come down here and take a picture if they live here and see this view every day.

Speaker 14 Why did that happen? That's one of the questions. They had nothing to do with it.
They didn't help your dad or anything. But why did the universe tell that person to stop right here?

Speaker 14 Because it was time for it to stop. He needed to be stopped.

Speaker 35 And if your mom, if your mom's body wasn't found, he would still be out there today.

Speaker 35 I reroll

Speaker 35 creation

Speaker 35 gave

Speaker 35 us all

Speaker 35 faults in our

Speaker 10 chest

Speaker 10 secret combinations.

Speaker 10 Now we can

Speaker 10 take out our hearts,

Speaker 33 tuck them tight

Speaker 10 into

Speaker 10 tiny bits

Speaker 10 to

Speaker 10 ribs.

Speaker 13 Happy Face is a production of how stuff works. Executive producers are Melissa Moore, Lauren Bright-Pacheco, Mangesh Hatikador, and Will Pearson.
Supervising producer is Noel Brown.

Speaker 13 Music by Claire Campbell, Paige Campbell, and Hope for a Golden Summer. Story editor is Matt Riddle.
Audio editing by Chandler Mays and Noel Brown. Assistant editor is Taylor Shacoyne.

Speaker 13 Special thanks to Phil Stanford, the publishers of the Oregonian newspaper, and the Carlisle family.

Speaker 13 Creation

Speaker 13 gave

Speaker 13 us all

Speaker 13 vaults in our

Speaker 13 chests

Speaker 13 and

Speaker 13 secret corporations.

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Speaker 11 There are two types of fishing: the kind I'm doing out here that brings me calm.

Speaker 11 And the kind of fishing hackers do online.

Speaker 11 They're always casting their lines, impersonating users, phony logins, anything to get someone to bite.

Speaker 3 But here's the thing.

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Fishing season is over.

Speaker 1 This is an iHeart podcast.