Receiver & Running Back Prospects with SUPERPOWERS (with Josh Norris & Hayden Winks)

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The Heed the Cop Podcast.

When Daddy reaches away, the mice will play.

Well, that's right.

That's right.

Yeah,

I'm Mark Sessler here with Heed the Call.

Dan Hansis, our wonderful show host, is on vacation, and he deserves a vacation after a long and hard-working season.

So we're going to take you through a little bit of news today.

Justin is here with me, our wonderful producer.

How are you doing, Justin?

I'm good.

Thanks.

Thanks for that.

Yes, we're going to hold down the fort without Dan here.

I think we got a great episode that Dan is very much a part of.

He's just not here right now.

He really is, because we spent, just to be real

with the listener and the viewer, a little filmed at a time.

We're doing some news today to catch up with what's happening here

on Monday and Tuesday.

But we've got Josh Norris and hayden winks from underdog to come on and talk all things draft with a special focus on running backs and wide receivers with a little shador sanders news as well and we'll dig into that that's going to be really fun um i also i i think also we've got to um we've got to raise awareness about the fact that like our patreon if you're not part of this

There are some cool things happening.

And I'm not the first person to go sign up for stuff left and right.

I understand where you're coming from.

But we've got a draft day rewatch coming up on April 17th.

And

is that the first thing I want to do?

Because I'm, you know, right in the crosshairs of having,

yeah, this, if you're watching on YouTube, this, this review that I gave over a decade ago, I believe, which has stained my career.

We've talked about this.

But we're going to watch Draft Day and give it a real review.

And then we are actually on the night of the draft.

This is cool.

Thursday night, we're going to have a fleet of guests, a bunch of friends to go through a big chunk of round one and really do something we've never been able to do.

We've never been able to do it that way.

And so, Justin, you'll be a big part of that because you are draft plugged in.

We've got,

we crossed 20,000 subscribers, Justin, this weekend on Patreon.

On YouTube,

on YouTube, on YouTube.

That is...

That's pretty great because we started from literally zero the number zero if that's a number It's less than a number So there we've done that on YouTube Patreon's growing, everything's growing.

So let's dig into a little bit of news, and then we'll take you to the meat of the episode, which is Josh and Hayden.

No, but when I was in high school, they called me Waffle House.

Waffle House?

You know what?

I'm not going to use that.

No why?

Why they would use required?

They call me Waffle House.

Because I'm always open.

Ooh.

Ooh.

Do you want to take us through some of these topics?

We don't have too many here, but there are a couple things happened over the weekend for sure.

Yeah, we missed some news last week that we're just going to let slip away and not discuss because it's kind of old now.

But some things over the weekend.

Julio Jones, Tennessee Titans legend,

probably where he's most famous for, has announced his retirement.

The two-time first-team all-pro, three-time second-team all-pro, seven-time Pro Bowler, member of the 2010s all-decade team, was widely hailed as the best receiver in the league for a good portion of his career, has called it quits.

It's interesting to me because just in the world, in the universe of our own show, he played for your team, the Titans, not during his heyday per se, but it was the Cleveland Browns.

If you go back to draft day, 2011, that I'll never forget, I was at the cozy inn watching the draft.

I wasn't on shift and I was just like, Cleveland had the number six pick, and they desperately needed game changers.

They needed someone to come in and spark that offense.

And the front office of the Cleveland Browns trades away the number six pick to the Atlanta Falcons.

And Cleveland does what they're trying to do, just to accrue multiple selections.

Here's what that turned into for Cleveland before we get to Julio Jones.

Phil Taylor, a defensive lineman who was stout for a number of years and then faded away with injuries.

Greg Little, who made very little impact.

A fullback, Owen Marisik, who are Marichik, I believe, who I was high on for about a week and a half.

And Brandon Whedon, the quarterback.

This is what you got for Julio Jones.

And Julio Jones, who I think had one of his best seasons during that Super Bowl run for the Atlanta Falcons, was just an absolute dominator.

And he announced his retirement on 404 Day in Atlanta, which celebrates the culture of Atlanta.

And he praised Matt Ryan, number one.

What an incredible, incredible career.

I know that you didn't experience so much with the Titans, Justin, but this was one of, this is a Hall of Fame, dominant, powerful, strong-handed physical specimen.

Yeah, some of the moments that stick out to me are when he mossed Luke Keekly deep down the field for a huge win over the Panthers that one season.

And then obviously some of the catches he made in that Super Bowl that Atlanta sadly blew the lead in.

Some of those plays were just unbelievable.

And yeah, I do think he was.

the best receiver in the league for a good portion of his career.

And he was in that same draft as A.J.

Green.

And I also think the story you just told, Mark, let that be a lesson to teams looking to trade down in the draft.

Like, it's only a good value trade or whatever if you hit on those picks.

And the more picks you get, the more you have to hit on for it to look like a good trade.

Whereas if you just draft a player and he busts, that also doesn't look good.

But I feel like the majority of time when you trade down like that, both teams lose because the team coming up usually misses and the team going back usually misses because most guys are not as good as fans expect on draft night.

No, you're right.

And I think that we've maybe moved out of the age of the accrue massive draft pick capital where like it's fourth and fifth rounders and stuff.

We're like, go get the star who changes, who becomes the leading,

you know, yardage and reception leader in your franchise history over a decade, sells tickets,

changes what we think about the team.

You are right.

In that Super Bowl, it's kind of forgotten.

There was this incredible like 25, 26, 27 yard catch he had down the stretch that had they won that game, that would have gone down as lore, but it's completely lost in the undertow of everything that happened since.

But what an incredible player.

And like,

I don't know.

I just, I, whenever I watched him, I was like, this is exactly what a modern day, super powerful, sizey wide receiver is.

He was a dominant, just a dominant physical being.

And I thought that like he fit with that Matt Ryan offense so well, especially when Shanahan was there.

I don't buy a lot of NFL jerseys, especially non-Titans NFL jerseys, but I did have a period where I was obsessed with receivers, and I got myself like a Raiders Amari Cooper jersey, and I got myself a Falcons Julio Jones jersey because

we are those now.

Are they still in a.

They're in a clock?

Hang on, give me one second.

Just vamp for a second.

You go, girl, I'll vamp.

I'll vamp.

Yeah, well, yeah, I think that whenever we can add

with Justin here some fashion elements, he's one of the few guys I know, and I say this in a nice way that like is still into wearing sports jerseys my collection is i would call it limited to be generous at this point but here we go look at this

that looks good on you thanks that looks that's that's a good that's those are nice colors for you

look at that when's the last time you wore that out in out in public when's the last time

years probably the day the titans signed him i probably went and threw it on just for the hell of it

well you got that quickly your closet is very close.

Are you in your bedroom?

I'm in my studio office room here in our nice house in Texas.

And when we were putting our clothes away, we got to my jersey collection.

And Jessica was like, we're not keeping these in our closet.

Put these somewhere else.

Put them in your office.

And I was like, okay.

It doesn't seem to work as well with the

paramores in life, the jerseys.

Like, you could try to take her out to a nice steak dinner and wear that and see how that flies.

I think it would probably fly poorly.

She probably wouldn't come if I showed up ready to leave in this.

We got other news, Mark.

We got another retirement here.

Dolphins left tackle.

Teron Armstead announces his retirement.

It was largely expected that he would not be back with the Dolphins this year, whether he retired or signed somewhere else in free agency.

And he has retired, which leaves a little bit of a hole at left tackle for the Dolphins.

They drafted Patrick Paul in the second round last year, and it will be on him to step up and step into that role and

be a good player because if he's not, the Dolphins' offensive line looks to be a little shaky there.

They were, he missed, I think, 11 games over the last three seasons.

And when he was out, it seemed to happen at critical times.

And their offense was so different.

I mean, he completely changed the Drew Brees-era Saints.

It's funny.

I watched this thing about him when he was drafted and talked about being young.

that like a lot of kids, like your parents can be an influence in getting you into football.

And like he didn't want to play football.

He wanted to stay home and play Nintendo and like the dad would drag him to the football field.

Then he started to realize he was he was very good.

But I think he needed a knee replacement was what a doctor said.

And so at that point, you're 33, you made a lot of money.

I think you make tough decisions.

I don't know if in 19, I think the one thing I think that's changed in football a little bit, if it was 1991 or 1981, maybe you fight through that, but like you've made a tremendous amount of cash and you've done a great job.

And that's a big loss.

If I'm the Dolphins, they've got the 13th pick, I believe.

I focus and they've got multiple

in the third and fourth round, they've got multiple picks.

Second round two, I think like I would go and focus on both lines.

Like their offensive line cannot kind of always be a Terran Armstead away, injury away from being C-.

Yeah, and they lost Christian Wilkins to free agency a year ago, never really replaced that guy, so they could use an interior defensive lineman, offensive lineman.

Can't wait for the draft, it's gonna be interesting.

Last piece of news here, besides

Trey Lance, signed with the Chargers.

Cool.

Joe Miller.

You don't care about that.

I asked you about that pre-show, and you're like, don't care.

But it's like, your point is that if Justin Herbert's, if we're watching Trey Lance in meaningful games, we've got issues.

But I do like the idea of Jim Harbaugh with Trey Lance just to see, can finally someone

turn the switch on here.

Yeah, can he be a quality backup?

Because I think at this point, unless he is Geno Smith three or four years from now,

his chance to be a starter is probably gone.

But this was almost a week ago now, but we never talked about it here.

And I just wanted to shout it out because you've been talking about it for a while.

Oh, yeah.

Joe Milton traded to the Cowboys and got the talk shows.

I think LaShawn McCoy or somebody said, Dak Prescott, you better find a realtor because this guy can play.

Like, what are we talking about?

That was a little extra, but I do think that I was treated like a leper when I suggested this trade might happen, you know, maybe a year ago or so.

And I really believe that he's, like, why not take

backups and quarterbacks with this kind of potential?

They got it for nothing.

Like, it was a nice job by Jerry Jones.

And you never know.

You never know.

I think it's kind of a tough spot for him because it's like.

It's kind of like Trey Lance, where he was there.

It's like, unless a disaster occurs, we're not going to see the guy.

But I am a little annoyed personally the Browns didn't just drop a fifth-round pick on this guy and like see,

hey, let's explore.

But they are not in the exploratory mood, apparently, unless it's for an edge rusher at number two.

So have a nice time.

I think it's going to be Travis Hunter there, but we'll talk about it.

I hope so, too.

I think the Colorado workout and they took him out to dinner and you've got the whole ownership group.

Like something,

like the tide seems to be turning a little bit there.

Yeah.

And we'll talk about Travis Hunter soon here with Josh and Hayden.

You want to do this little

Luka Doncic thing?

Yeah, well, it's an ad read from our company, and we respect our company very much.

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Okay, so let's,

we're going to get to Josh and Hayden in a second.

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Which is what they should be doing.

Just two playoffs, and the champion of the first one meets the second.

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Did you know that it's already the last week of the NBA regular season?

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Well, now let's get to Josh and Hayden.

How about that, Justin?

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Josh and Hayden,

these dudes are so versatile.

Norris and

Wings,

Underdog's movable chest piece.

Wow.

What a theme song.

Yes.

And that applause isn't for me.

It's for you guys.

You selected this.

We took this out of the underdog library because this is what you guys introduce your shows, NFL draft with Josh and Hayden.

And of course, it pivots at a certain point to fantasy football with Josh and Hayden, hence the movable chess piece.

What is up, Josh and Hayden?

Dan, that was wonderful.

Thank you for that.

Who knew some random song I chose just over four years ago in the library when the company was 16 people large would stick with us for the next four years?

But I still dig it, man.

It still has kind of it, you know?

It's kind of like a Starbucks filled with like beautiful women.

That's how I picture it.

I don't know why, but that, Hayden, that's where I come from on it.

I guess wherever your mind takes you is wherever it is.

Yeah, I was just hoping for the verse two with Ceci to come through for us, but maybe that's a good thing.

That's the end of the segment, Mark.

Okay, good.

That is.

Mark, how do you feel about a Starbucks full of beautiful women?

Well, I'm pro.

I would say not con.

I'm pro.

I'm pro.

So

sign me up.

I like coffee.

I like beautiful people.

What's up, guys?

We appreciate you giving us some time.

You are cranking out the content right now, and it is high-end content.

And our job here at Heed the Call, Josh, is

so we don't proclaim to be draft experts.

So we talk to draft experts and we learn as things go.

And then by the time we get to April 24th, we pretend that we are experts.

And then by the time people like figure out, wait, they might not be experts, it doesn't matter because it's over.

It's like one of those deals.

I love that, Dan.

I will peel back the curtain a little bit.

We were asked to come on this very established and fine program, and it was still up in the air what we would talk about.

And so, while you don't proclaim to be a draft expert, I don't proclaim to be the gimmick god like you are when it comes to creating topics for shows.

And so, when I pitched a lot of things, gimmicks seems like a cheap way to describe what I do, but yeah, go ahead.

So, when I pitched today's, I did have the sinking feeling that Graver was going to come back and be like, Dan, absolutely hated that.

We're not doing it.

But it was passed.

We'll see like your true feelings once this comes through.

No, the gimmick is, I don't know, let's go with theme at the very least.

The bit?

Still too low?

Gimmick feels a little

low grade, a little project.

In all seriousness, in all seriousness, Dan, like, that is a really difficult thing to do.

You know, rather than just speak on the news of the day and title that each episode, it does take some real creativity to come up with some type of, I'm going to use one of these words again, catch that or

theme

that brings people in and draws them in.

And, you know, it's a package for the entire episode rather than just, you know, this is why I.

Yes, you're right.

Thank you very much.

I'd like to be called an episodic auto.

How about that?

Okay.

You're a bit of an Andy Kaufman when it comes to NFL podcast scenarios.

And and I don't do it alone.

I got like Sest Dog here.

It's like the in the Matrix, the

that pairing, you know

problematic sometimes.

Let's get into it.

Let's talk about it.

And the theme

for the autar at work today, in this case, Mr.

Norris, apparently, is

the running backs and wide receivers in the 2025 draft class that have superpowers.

Ooh, I like that.

So, you know, like guys that have something that

you covet on your team, right?

Things that are difference makers, that are separators.

That's beautiful.

Yeah.

They were born with it in some instances.

So I can't wait to do this.

Yeah.

So why don't we start with the guy that I think

is the most exciting player in this draft?

And Hayden, for instance, you called him football Shohei Otani.

I referred, of course, to Colorado's Travis Hunter.

And

there's there's so much to him that you could pick, I guess, to categorize his superpower.

But what would be the superpower that he possesses?

Yeah, we were talking about movies before this, and I went to The Incredibles from 2004, and not Mr.

Incredible, but Alasta Girl.

That's who I'm talking about, who, by the way, they made uncomfortably thick for a child's movie.

But that's just beside the point.

Alasta Girl

is a different era.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Bendy, super fast, just at the catch point, which is the best thing about

Travis Hunter.

It's incredible.

His springs, he just glides.

He just looks like the type of guy that would be the best at pickleball, then the best at ping pong, definitely the best in pickup basketball.

Just immediately the best.

And you see this translate from corner and to wide receiver.

And you see his like feel and his instincts are awesome, but really like his movement skills, it reminds you of Justin Jefferson or Sauce Gardner.

You pick the guys, like those freaky athletes that just kind of glide everywhere.

And I think the hype is like almost being like undersold because we just don't see this guy.

We've played 1,500 snaps last year.

He played 163 snaps against Texas Tech in a single outing.

This is like completely

out of this world.

Yeah, 100 snaps in 11 of 13 games this past season.

It's preposterous what he is doing.

We all watch a ton of football, and when someone just moves differently, you really attract to them, you notice it.

And that's exactly what he does.

And, you know, he really should be the main focus of this entire draft process because when we were talking to our friend in general, Albert Breer at the NFL Combine, it felt like everyone was in the camp that he was going to play cornerback and then just shadow at wide receiver every once in a while.

But I really feel like the tide has turned with that and that we've gotten to this point where he's mostly going to be a wide receiver first and foremost.

And then maybe on third down, sprinkle in at corner.

And maybe that's because of the teams at the top mark, like the Browns, the Patriots, the Giants, more need wide receivers than they do at corner.

But just imagine what he's going to be like as a full-time wide receiver when he spends all of his time at wide receiver rather than being in the meetings and practicing on defense like he did during his time at Colorado.

Yeah, I just,

I, you know, as a classically Browns-oriented person, like I, I want him, um, I don't want them to pass him up to someone else, and then they've done what they've always done.

But, like,

talk about someone who

might change the way we think about football and what football players do.

And, like, you mentioned it, that 100-plus snaps in eight games.

I guess my question would be,

because as a receiver, what I saw, like, watching your guys tape on him, but other stuff, too, is just like circus catches and willing to take punishment.

Like, this guy is just a natural.

He's sort of just an absolute football natural.

Like, do you think that amount of work and workload works in the NFL?

Or does a team and the right team need to pick a specific lane for him?

Yeah, to add on to that,

the thing that's coming across my mind right now is durability.

Can this actually work?

Or do you have to kind of play him the way, let's say, Deion was 30 years ago, where it's like he's the shutdown corner.

You could send him out there to try to make some razzle-dazzle plays, run some go routes, but that feels like almost a waste.

The way you're explaining his skill set as an offensive player, he's so much more than that, right?

Yeah, I think the Browns should just take him and play him at wide receiver.

And if you guys want to have fun on third downs with Denzel Ward and play a bunch of man coverage or cover to the most basic stuff on defense, he's fully capable of doing that.

But like, to me, wide receivers make the most money aside from the quarterbacks.

I don't see why Travis Hunter wouldn't want to play some wide receiver.

He's just so good at it.

And I think what Josh was saying was he just, he didn't play like, or he didn't practice as a wide receiver.

And he still averaged almost 100 yards per game in 15 touchdowns.

And that was not like a fully like flushed out offense either.

Lots of screens, lots of go balls, but everything in between, you can see it in glimpses.

But he's like not even like the best route runner.

And he was still this dominant because he's such a freaky athlete.

So I would go with wide receiver first.

And then

maybe sprinkle in a little bit of corner.

And then if he can handle it, then sure.

If you're going to be Otan, you want to be Cy Young and MVP with the bat, then sure.

But if he's just a wide receiver, I think second overall in this draft class, I think it's still well worth it.

And not to get too detailed here, but what really flashed other than just his circus grabs on back shoulders and extending away from his frame was how he handled zone coverage.

And I think it's because of

his experience at cornerback, where he doesn't just sit in that first window.

He'll move and be his quarterback's best friend and find the open space.

I mean, we go back and right now, you know, we have 15 wide receiver prospects on the channel.

And I don't know if I've found like a better zone wide receiver yet.

And these are guys that have been practicing at wide receiver since they were a freshman in high school and have all these, you know, time on tasks and reps at it.

And it's just, like you said, Mark, it's just all coming natural to him.

And I don't mean that in a negative way.

It's only a positive way because when you put the reps in, to me, there's only going to be like the sky's the limit when he moves like two of the best wide receivers of the last decade, like Odell Beckham and Justin Jefferson.

I like to read, I still like to read Lance Zierling's write upsonfl.com.

And it's the first time I've ever seen in my life for any player where the comp was Devonta Smith and Darius Slay.

Right.

And maybe never again.

And when can we say that?

Like, when can we talk about a player who breaks the mold?

And like, that's what we're attracted to every single Sunday, every single draft process.

And he's the definition of that.

I just wonder if five years from now, Justin Graver with the Titans fan with the number one pick is kicking himself because there is an Otani in the NFL and you passed on him to go for a quarterback prospect.

Maybe he turns into a stud.

We don't know.

It is, he's an endlessly fascinating prospect, obviously.

And even like the, it's like a fun thought exercise.

Wait, if you're an elite wide receiver and an elite cornerback, that's almost seems like it might be some type of a mental benefit as well because you know exactly how to run routes that will torment a cornerback and then if you can cover in ways that can get into the head of an elite wide receiver the guy's like a he's a superhero potentially there he goes very interesting and no disrespect sess dog

but like i think about the browns and do i want kenny pickett or late period kirk cousins slinging this guy the ball or even as a jets fan like am i would i rather see drake may unlocked with this kid and then he does the same thing we were just talking about where he's playing across some christian gonzales a little bit like hmm

Move heaven and earth if I can't.

You don't want anyone to go to the Browns that has this kind of talent, like, like, just to be fair.

Yeah.

No, well, we don't like to see that happen also.

It seems bad things tend to happen.

Yes, Justin.

What if it's Shador Sanders slinging it to Travis Hunter?

What if we see one of those CJ Stroud Will Anderson, but in a way different way, where it's Travis Hunter at the top of the draft?

And then back into the first round, here comes a trade-up from the Browns.

Spicy, Justin.

I like that.

All right, let's move on because we got to get through

a bunch of guys here, and I don't want to keep you guys too long.

All right.

Do another wide receiver, Hayden.

Washington State's Kyle Williams.

What's his superpower?

Yeah, this guy just teleports and he does it in two ways.

I think that the number one way is immediately at the line of scrimmage.

We're not talking about a slot receiver.

We're not talking about a guy that you put in motion, like legit X receiver.

He doesn't have like the big X receiver size.

He's 5'11, 190, but he teleports at the line of scrimmage with his releases, inside step, and and then immediately he's back on the outside to step up and hit these huge vertical patterns.

And the other way he teleports is a second he's got a step on you, he's all of a sudden got four steps on you.

So he's an older guy.

He's played in school for a while.

He was at UNLV and then Washington State.

And that's why I think he's the sleeper of this draft because, like, who in their right minds are watching UNLV and Washington State tape?

But I did go back and I was curious about Cam Ward speaking of him.

who was his teammate back in 2023.

And the go balls in 2023 at Washington State with Cam Ward and Kyle Williams were spectacular.

So I think this guy is being slept on.

I'm almost wondering if the NFL is in on this and that the media is a little bit slow to this.

And I am getting kind of curious if he's actually going to be a top 50 player instead of somebody that's in the consensus boards outside the top 100.

See, Dan, this is uncommon because

Hayden and I never compare notes ahead of these prospect profiles.

We're actually going to record this one right after we do this show.

So I get a little taste.

I hate speaking up your process, in other words.

know.

See, this is the havoc that gimmicks can wreak upon us all.

In all sincerity, it's Hayden's fault.

He picked him, for God's sakes, for this freaking program.

In all sincerity, I saw Tyler Lockett when watching Kyle Williams.

It was some beautiful go-ball stuff.

And he is the, again, definition of if he's even, he's leaving.

And I'm not going to say at 5-11, 190 that he's going to go up and grab these contested catches and pluck them out of the air, but he also has late hands and lets them fall to the ground, fall into his hands.

And

it's one of these where we saw so many wide receivers in free agency, like Tutu Outwell, for example, or Diami Brown get like one year, $10 million contracts because they still had that vertical juice.

And like no matter what, even if they were considered bust until their final year of the rookie season, the NFL is just going to give them chance after chance after chance.

I think Kai Williams can do more than those two players.

And so I wouldn't be surprised at all if we see him as like an early second-round pick because of this superpower that he brings to the table.

I kind of like him to like someone like the Bills, where like you bring this sort of home run potential to an offense that's trying to add weapons.

Is that sort of what he is?

Just kind of like a deep threat?

I mean, I personally saw him, and like I was trying to not get too carried away with my comps here, but I was starting to find some ridiculous comps because there was snaps where like three by one sets, he's the isolated receiver on the back side, pressed man coverage, slant routes, just creating separation.

In the screen game, he averaged 13 yards after the catch on his screen receptions.

He runs 4-4 speed, and he's doing this at X receiver.

Pick your favorite wide receivers in the NFL.

And that's the type of production that they're doing.

So I don't want to make some unserious comps and he goes in the third round or something like that.

But Calvin Ridley, like those type of guys, like I see a lot of similarities with Kyle Williams.

I think he does more than just like a one-trick pony vertical element.

Why not reunite him with Cam Ward, with the Tennessee Titans in the second round?

You know, like to me, that's

playing to our producer.

That's always a good move, too.

The old Burrow Chase move.

I love it.

Yes.

And guess who was the offensive coordinator when they did that?

The now head coach of the Tennessee Titans.

Yeah, not anyone knew.

I mean, how many championships in a row will the Titans win after this draft?

That's the only question.

I will say, when they were together, that was not Cam Ward's best season, and that was also not Kyle Williams' best season.

So, that is one possible wrinkle in all this.

Fair retort.

Fair retort from Hayden.

All right, Josh, how about UTS Up, superpower of Missouri's Luther Burden?

Yes, Luther Burden III.

He is the human torch because he's an explosive play waiting to happen.

Again, when watching these prospects, you see some who are good with the ball in their hands.

You see some others, like we just talked about, who have great straight line speed.

And to me, you rarely find a prospect who excels in both of those areas to the degree that Luther Burton does.

And when I was going back and watching all these wide receivers, 2023, Luther Burden was the most fun I had when watching prospects at the position.

Like he was total dynamite.

There's a chance he took a manufactured touch to the house every single time he had the ball in his hands because the juice that he brings, he has shocking strength for his size on top of it.

And I thought he won downfield with that same speed speed and excellent hands to pluck the ball away from his body.

I mean, he first 20 missed tackles in 2023, 30 forced missed tackles this past season, which is the most in this draft class.

So he almost has like that sixth sense yards after catch capability that like when you see it, you see it and it's different than everyone else on the field.

And that whole kind of middle ground area that we're talking about from yards after catch manufacturer stuff and then deep shots definitely have, there's room to grow and to improve on but with just those two ways with how the NFL is searching for explosive plays I think it's going to be a major asset to whatever draft team and I I watched your video the two of you on this and Hayden I I captured a quote one of the worst route runners I saw

so you guys do not you're not on the same you're not in the same church on this one yeah yeah I mean he's better than the Malachi Corley not to take a shot at

over there He has Malachi Corley, no matter what.

Yeah, I mean, there's a Malachi Coralie plus element to Luther Burden.

I will give him that.

So it's just...

That's disgusting.

He can win on the slot phase.

And he's a legit five-star guy.

I just didn't see five-star ready to go immediately.

But his best plays are like...

like maybe top 10 overall selection stuff.

It's just the consistency.

And I do wonder if there's other things going on with him.

Now, Dan, I will add, I have no idea what happens behind the scenes.

I do go and watch

some of these prospect interviews that they have with the media.

I will declare that I don't think Luther Burden's ever going to be a podcaster with the way he speaks to the left as a conversationalist.

So I don't know how teams are going to believe in his work ethic to improve because it's never a good sign when your production declines your final year in comparison to your sophomore season.

But man, I just think a top-end end athlete like this that already has those two ways where he literally makes game-changing plays on every single contest he enters that hopefully we can

fill out and improve the other areas.

And if not,

like Rashi Rice, for example, certainly was not a full route tree,

full field player.

But when you go to a coordinator that utilizes those skill sets and gets players in areas where they win, again, they change games.

And I'm hoping Luther Burton falls into one of those categories.

All right.

Here's another guy that could bring some debate, Josh, because

just reading up and listening to you guys and the way you're describing this player, TCU's wide receiver, Jack Besh, that I couldn't, as I'm listening to the build-up here,

what's the line between versatile, like you guys,

and the dreaded tweener?

And where does Jack Besh fit in

our league?

It's a tremendous question.

First of all, if we're going to give him a superhero name, he is the shapeshifter because he has literally played everywhere.

Like as a freshman, this gets to your point.

At LSU, when he out-produced Malik Neighbors and Brian Thomas Jr.

that year, he played basically inline tight end on 128 snaps and then like an F move tight end.

you know, in 2023 at TCU was an 80% slot player.

And this past season, he was 70% out wide.

I think to answer your question, and it's such a good one

that, you know, Steve Kaime could never answer when he was the Arizona Cardinals junior manager and drafted like six of these guys at linebacker edge, safety, all this stuff.

To me, true versatility is lining up from multiple alignments and being able to win from each one.

Like the opposite is

then you're just lining up at different spots and losing.

And that's not versatility.

That's like what you're talking about, tweener stuff.

I would love for Jack Besch to obviously obviously go to a Shanahan McVay tree coach.

I am not calling him Cooper Cup.

I am not calling him Puka Nakua, but he is one of these, I think, new class of pass catchers that can fill the void of your third wide receiver slash second tight end that we even see like Drake London do in Atlanta a little bit, be super physical, super powerful in the slot.

Because

for many teams, they're moving away from these like hop, skip, and a jump, jitterbug, small slot wide receivers, and instead like getting mass, getting bulk there.

And I think he fits into that superbly.

And it sounds like

listening to what you guys had to say, that speed, maybe speed is an issue,

but the route running, that he creates problems for defensive backs

if you give him any space, like that does work with the Shanahan type offense very well.

Yeah, against off coverage, he's a menace out there, and he can definitely block.

So all the two tight end reps where you got to go and get your hands dirty against linebackers and even ten ends, he can do that.

I always just get a little bit nervous when you're opting out of the 40 and you're a guy that's going the second or third round, and you're trying to prove yourself, and you decide, yeah, I'm not going to run the 40.

That always makes you nervous.

I didn't see him blow by guys, so that's like the one thing I'm a little bit skeptical of, but his route running and his physicality definitely NFL standards.

And, Dan, just to put a bow in this,

I do wonder if teams are going to even stack him with a tight end like Harold Fannin, for example, and say, okay, we're going to use him to attack certain areas of the field in the same personnel groupings.

Because we kind of got to that point with someone like Dawn Kincaid a couple of years ago with the Buffalo Bills, who said, like, oh, we're going to run 11 and a half personnel.

And we have this great idea of how we're going to put, you know, they can't run base against us.

They can't run nickel.

But then it turned out they could.

And one of the worst Bills personnel groupings was actually when they had two tight ends on the field and they spent a first round draft pick on that so it's like again

how we used to talk about edge it was linebackers or 4-3 defensive ends i don't think we've gotten to that point and then we repackage it as again edge as a player i don't think we've gotten it to that point with this type of hybrid slot you know power type player and i do wonder if three years from now that is its own category of a position

all right let's shift over to running back now.

And Hayden, now, and we're going to get to two guys that you guys have superpower thoughts on, and then the player that everyone's, you know, putting up there in the top 10 potentially, who I just, I just want to check in with you guys on him because he sounds really special.

But let's start Hayden with Tennessee's Dylan Sampson.

Is he really special?

Yeah, he's special.

And what's his superpower?

Yeah, the superpower is just that he's stealthy.

And the reason why he's stealthy is because he's so damn small.

Stealth man.

could use work, workshop it, yeah, five eight, 200 pounds.

And I have not been in love with these type of guys, but then I watch Bucky, Kyron, other running backs all of a sudden just tote the rock, and he looks very similar to those guys.

So I think that he hides behind his offensive line really well.

I thought his vision's uh very good, too.

And I think that he's stealthy because he also surprises people because he's so dense at the contact point where he actually breaks enough tackles.

And he's also stealthy and that he runs right by a lot of guys.

He's like a legit mid-four fours type of player, which is actually a little bit faster than the Kyron Williams type out there, 20 years old, had 22 rushing touchdowns and one of my favorite stats looking at the draft this year.

He had 36 short yardage attempts.

He picked up a first down on 33 of them.

You just don't see guys with that build have that type of vision and contact balance and power

at that size.

So He's pretty interesting to me.

I think he's going to be a third rounder.

I think that he can carry a big workload.

You just don't see like 200 200-pounders with that ability, but I think that Dylan Sampson fits the bill.

Like, I'm 5'8, 150, and he's 5'8, 200.

If you were to add 50 pounds, well, I would assume it's not muscle onto me.

We'd have an interesting type of athlete in that scenario.

He's also 35 years younger, so there's advantages he has as well.

Yeah, vision.

That checks out.

How about this, Josh?

This is someone we discussed.

Well, we discussed his backfield mate, Quinchon Judkins, last week with Connor Rogers.

Ohio State's Trevion Henderson.

Superpower?

Well, I had to dig deep to find a superhero or villain that matched the skill set,

but there was a Spider-Man villain called The Wall.

Oh, that is a deep dive.

If you want me to go to the backstory, I quickly can.

His name was Joshua.

He worked behind the scenes at Mets Games, apparently.

And he

another Queen's product, like Peter Parker.

Exactly.

He had a building accident, and a wall fell on him, and he literally turned into the wall.

But

we're running out of ideas there.

This is late period Stan Lee, obviously.

But only had legs, and his superpower was that...

Spider-Man's webs did not work on him, and he just moved faster than the average man.

Anyways, I'll get into Trevi's.

That's tough here.

Our Easton Freeze superhero we came up with, Justin Graver, is way better than what Stan Lee came up with with the wall.

But anyway,

let's stay on topic.

Trevion Henderson.

The reason I want to call Trevion Henderson the wall is because of his pass protection.

Like

I haven't seen a player with this level of skill on third down to keep his quarterback clean since Kyron Williams entering the NFL.

And Sean McVay, that's why he wanted to play him so quickly in the league.

And I would say that Trevion Henderson has a bit more juice and a bit more burst than what Kyron Williams brings to the table.

To me, I don't know how a single play caller doesn't watch Trevion Henderson and leave saying, nah, I don't want that guy.

Like

he is a big play waiting to happen in both the receiving game and explosive rushes.

And then because of his pass protection ability, in my opinion, you can leave him on the field for all three downs.

Like he alters the fabric of an offense immediately.

Again, every time he touches the ball, he can take it to the house and then he can keep your quarterback clean to throw explosive plays that also change games.

So that's just a sweet combo that I don't see very often in every single draft class.

Underrated.

I think Hayden,

you comped him to,

if I'm not mistaken, you mentioned Aaron Jones, an element of Aaron Jones and an element of James Cook.

I did watch that against Texas, Justin's precious Texas team.

He had, what, the 75-yard screen pass?

He's pretty explosive.

So it's like, you're right.

Like, what, who wouldn't want him?

Like, you can add him and you can do things special with him.

Well, it's like the

pass protection is something that you could look past, but it is, I would say, like, the comp there for a superpowers, like the invisible man.

It's something that you don't realize how amazing it is.

You don't even realize it's happening half the time

until it's not happening and your quarterback's getting blown up on a blitz.

That could be remarkably important.

That could be a season saver when you got a Ray Lewis type blowing through the A gap, you know.

And just real quick, Sean Payton, multiple times this offseason has talked about like the Joker position and finding a running back that he can utilize in a variety of different spots.

And Hayden fully believes that pick number 20 is way too early for someone like Treveyon Henderson.

I wouldn't put it past him.

And when he and I do these two-round mock draft exercises, it is very difficult to get Trevion Henderson to fall to the Denver Broncos at pick 51.

And then when you get past Trevion, there's really, to me, like not another running back that has the package of skills that he does.

So they either need to move up from 51 to get him or just take him flat out at number 20.

And I would say like when Jameer Gibbs was entering the NFL on, you know, April 6th or April 7th, when this episode is coming out, everyone would have thought that, you know, pick 12 or whatever was way too early for him.

And I'm not calling Trevin Harrison Jameer Gibbs, but I think he can have a somewhat similar impact in Sean Payton's system.

Are you calling him the Joker?

Is that, are we going to?

He's a villain.

Did the Joker have a superpower?

I don't think so.

He's just like a major.

He's a major criminal mastermind, though.

You know?

Doesn't fit the bet or the gimmick, Graber.

I like it.

But it was good.

I tried.

It was a good attempt.

All right.

Before we say goodbye, yes, everybody already knows about Boise State's Ashton Genty, but I want to pull out something that Hayden, and again, check out all the content that Josh and Hayden are pumping out right now.

I really love the bite-sized shows that you're putting out for each prospect.

And I checked out the one on Genti, and this really got me going.

Hayden, you've been doing this a while now.

You're a young man, and yet

you have models that go back to 2005.

I don't know how that, I don't even know if that checks out.

That might even be a science.

But you know what?

We work together, so I'm not going to be the one that blows the lid off it like Mantai Teo style.

Your models date back to 2005.

The only guys ahead of Genti in terms of prospects, Saquon Zeke, and don't snicker at Zeke.

Zeke in his early Zeke was an absolute stud and a monster.

CMC, so we're talking about an offensive player of the year.

Reggie Bush, one of the greatest college players ever and a very good pro.

So Genti in this category, I'm running.

If I have a need in the top 10 for a playmaker, I'm not overthinking this.

I'm going to get that dude and let somebody else talk themselves out of it because he's just a running back.

Yeah, the models go back far.

My eyes have only gone back about five years with doing this with Josh and I.

I know I realized that as I was saying it, but it was kind of funny the idea that you were like seven and you know, breaking down the model.

Yeah, that would be impressive.

But yeah, with him, it's just the contact balance is ridiculous.

So like, I think him and Bijan have put in the same tier of players for recent draft classes.

Ash and Genti's contact balance is better than Bijan.

Bijan, I think, is a better route runner in general.

So just just some pros and cons.

But yeah, I think the Bears at 10th overall after addressing the offensive line, if they want to be the cherry on top, I think that Ash and Genti would be a superstar with it.

I think I'll get a little bit nervous if like the Raiders before their offensive line in their wide receiver room and stuff is figured out.

But as like a cherry on top piece, like this is the guy that can absolutely take it to the house.

And I mean, against Penn State and Oregon, like the toughest competition, he like made everybody miss.

Like it's like almost like not even an exaggeration.

He's got to have the PFF record for most force missed tackles.

And Josh, I think, and I apologize if we're starting to lose the thread here, but I could always blame Justin.

That is, is this guy like Too-Face?

Is he Sonic and Knuckles combined?

Like, is that what's going on right now?

Wow, what a great, you must have, you know, some young kids that are into

Sega games, movies, gamers.

I've seen all of the Sonic films in person.

I've spent, if I do the math, probably over $175 with concessions, probably like $500 on those easy damn movies.

Yeah, they're actually not bad.

Carry is tremendous as the heel.

Plays a great head.

Jim Carrey, a big through line through this episode.

Yes,

I think that comparison is fantastic.

He's one of these players where, and Matt Wallman coined the phrase run stamina, where he will make three people miss in the first 30 yards, but then pull away from the rest of the defense.

So it's not just like this 30-yard gain.

He closes it out for 40, 50, 60 yard touchdowns.

And that's a big difference when you're watching so many of these prospects.

Like we love Damian Martinez from Miami.

We like Cam Scatabue from Arizona State.

They both break tackles, but they don't necessarily finish out these runs.

And so some of those drives might end in punts.

They might end in field goals.

Ash and Genti, to me, Mark, not to cut deep here, but like Nick Chubb with passing down ability.

I know he's

two inches shorter and a few pounds lighter, but he's chiseled out of stone.

He's just like a more compact version of Nick Chubb, who's all of our favorite runners with the football.

And then he has like real passing down chops, I felt.

I saw that.

So he's about two inches shorter, and that really doesn't matter, I think, for running backs.

Let's comp them to your build again, Mark.

Let's do that game again.

No, we're not comparing it.

Like,

what an interesting comp.

A Nick Chubb can change your organization.

So it's like, I'm kind of in the pro.

Like certain teams can take this kind of running back and it can change everything about them.

Not every team, but it could be the right fit for somewhere.

And

exciting.

I don't know.

It's going to be the Titans that keep passing on these guys.

We understand how that works.

A lot of talent there, you know, Justin.

This was wonderful.

Let's play the theme again.

Mark, do you want to sing the lyrics this time?

Well, I just want to say one thing.

Before I sing, can I do one thing?

I'll hold the song because Mark has agreed to sing it.

Like, I want to say something.

We're just doing football non-stop all year long.

And, like,

you're guys, and I'm

I've been watching these.

Um, you guys argue a lot about these players, and like there's a bit of a joy and a dance to these.

And I think people should get

online.

If you're, if you're like someone that, like, wants to get kind of fall for the NFL draft, come watch these previews of these players because it's like the stars of tomorrow.

And you got, it's not just like silent tape over and over where you're trying to stay awake.

It's like you have a vibrant conversation, and in a sea of data, I think that you kind of, it kind of feels like your first slow dance in life.

Like it's very exciting and it's memorable stuff.

So I really, like I texted you the other day, like these make me kind of electrified for the draft.

So

it's exciting to have you guys come and talk with us.

Now I'll do it.

Do I have to do a song?

No, I want to, Josh and Hayden should accept their flowers.

Yeah.

No,

I do it.

I mean,

our goal is to have 45 of these done, focusing on quarterbacks, running backs, wide receivers, and tight ends.

We're probably about 20-ish

in the bank right now.

And yeah, like you said, Dan, they're about nine to 15 minutes.

And shout out Producer Weaves for making us sound like we know what we're talking about with them because we get on there, we don't share what we're going to say, and we have a great time.

And we're very lucky to be on the same network together here at Underdog.

And, you know, between what you guys do, what we try to do, what the 89 show does with

Steve and Palmer and Jay and Colt and everyone.

Like, we got the whole thing covered.

So if you're listening to one of our shows or watching one of our shows, check them all out because we're building something here really good.

And without further ado, Mark Sessler, I'm sending you the lyrics.

There you go.

I'll give you the cue.

You ready?

Yeah.

One, two, three, go.

No, wait, wait, wait, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

I'm sorry.

That was my fault.

Ready?

Start it over again.

Hang on, hang on.

All right, here we go.

Josh and Hay.

I didn't give the cue.

Oh, well, I don't know.

We're all over the place.

Now it started at three times.

All right, well, one more time.

One more time.

Sorry, guys.

I know you have another recording to do, but

my talent can't hit a cue.

We've all been there.

Oh, my God.

Mark, did you have a stroke?

What?

What are you like?

You're pointing at me.

That's your cue.

Oh, I had.

Here we go.

Here we go.

All right.

Here we go.

Last time, and then Josh and Hayden came.

It was a verbal cue.

I thought it was a verbal cue, but it was.

Do you want a verbal cue or just the visual?

Yeah, verbal is good.

Okay, all right.

Speaking of gimmicks.

You ready?

Go.

Josh and Hayden, these dudes are so versatile.

Norris and Winks on the dog's movable chess pieces.

We'll take it.

We'll take it.

I'm not a singer, but I did the best I could.

Electric.

I loved it.

You brought your own essence to it.

Yes.

Now, Dan, what happens if I

change up the song?

Do the lyrics change as well?

Absolutely.

I mean,

this is art that's like a moving installation is the way I look at it.

Love it.

So if you want to bring something to it, you want to do a rewrite, that's good.

Josh and Hayden, check it out.

The NFL Draft Show.

We'll be right back after this.

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All right, well here we are.

Like we can act like that just happened two seconds ago, but it happened just a couple days ago.

We like to be authentic and real with the audience.

Thank you so much to Josh and Hayden.

Man, like I said in the interview, when you go watch these guys' videos, like they put in the work, but they make it interesting.

And like, I just, I, I'm not just pitching that because it's an underdog thing.

I used to watch them all the time back in the day.

I know you did as well, Justin.

So they're really great at what they do.

They make, they, they bring context and enjoyment to the draft process.

And we've got a couple more weeks till that all unfolds.

So thanks for being with us today.

And Justin, thanks for you signing on today to do this extra little bit of work to seal up this show.

That's what we do here at Heed the Call.

And we're going to say goodbye right now.

I got one thing quickly on Josh and Hayden.

Firstly, yes, I listened to Josh when he was with Roto World NBC

on a podcast way before Underdog existed.

So that goes back a long ways.

And secondly, they will be joining us on our live stream during the first round of the NFL draft.

And after the first round of the NFL draft, Josh and Hayden are doing their own live stream.

So you should just hang out on draft night with your favorite underdog content all night long.

Start with us.

Check them out.

When their stream's over, we'll have our round one recap probably up by then.

So it's just like it's going to be a great night of content.

We signed them up for extra work, but they did not sign us up for extra work, which is telling, but we think we are thankful for that as well.

So, and away we go.

All right.

Remember, want to sign

Well, there's one thing you got to do.

If you're Justin, or if you're Hayden, or you're Josh, or you're listening, you got to do one thing:

heed the call.

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