The 8 Most Important Figures of the 2025 NFL Offseason

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The Heed the Call podcast

doesn't want to go camping, so stop asking already.

Enough?

Enough.

Welcome to another edition of Heed the Call with Dan Hansis and Mark Sessler.

I am Dan Hanses, and that's Mark Sessler.

Mark, you strike me as a man.

If there was a window to be a camping guy, that that is long, long in the rear view.

Well,

why in the rear view is it currently there?

I mean, you're in your like

urban cowboy era right now, so it's like, I don't imagine you're looking to head to the

hinterlands.

I have a long history of camping, but you got a problem now where it's like you have to start from scratch and buy camping gear, and it's like roughly three grand to like get that show up and running.

So that is a non-option at the moment financially.

I can stress that.

All right, good.

Well, not good.

Great to have you here, Sestog.

And if it's Thursday,

you know what that means.

Let's welcome in our friends from the athletic, Jordan Rodriguez and Michael, Sean Dugar.

What's up, gang?

Happy Thursday.

Hi, guys.

How's it going?

Is Urban Cowboy a scent?

Wait, say that again?

Is Urban Cowboy what?

Is it a scent?

Like, you know, you go to Macy's and they switch you.

I don't know.

There's a a lot of scents in the middle of Hollywood.

I know that.

There's a lot of scents.

I know there's a lot of scents in that.

It's not all of them pleasant.

A lot of scents.

But I think Mark has a musk.

Yeah.

No, I actually,

for the first time in my life, bought what would be, is it a scent?

Is that what you call it for a man?

But it's called Bad Boy, which is a cologne, you mean?

Yeah, a cologne.

It's called Bad Boy.

Based classic alien reveal there.

Human, fragrance scent.

I've always been a cologne guy.

I don't don't know if cologne, Mike, you're significantly younger.

Are colognes still hot in the game right now, or do guys not wear cologne anymore?

Absolutely.

Yeah, I've been a big cologne guy or a scent guy.

I know you said, because you're like the Billy D.

Williams, I feel like, of the NFL beat.

So you're smooth and you do cologne.

Thank God it's still going strong.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I've been wearing cologne sets since I was in late eighth grade or something like that.

Yep.

Dracar was very big back in the day.

And there was a gap in between my scent wearing.

My favorite.

My high school scent, which if it was still in style, I'd still be wearing it.

But

I think it's out of favor is Fahrenheit, which was just, oh, what a scent Fahrenheit was.

Ray Bradbury made that?

It was not a Ray Bradbury joint,

but it was, oh, man, I could still smell it thinking about it now.

That was my go-to throughout the year.

Did it net you results of any nature?

Not on any level in high school.

But I smelled good, so that was that was positive.

Mike, you were

during Super Bowl week, you were on a on a guys trip, and I was curious how that went.

Yeah, it was in a cancun for about let's see, the sixth through the tenth.

So math is hard, not going to count the days.

Uh, but yeah, we had a good time.

Spent a lot of time in the uh the little hotel zone that they had, which is their version of like the strip or like their version of like a bourbon street or something.

It's got all the clubs, got all the bars, all the people on the street just heckling you not heckling you but like trying to get you to buy something or like you know frequent their establishment whatever whatever their establishment is uh legal or illegal they're like hey come on yeah amigo pull up uh that was a good time i was with uh two of my really close homies who uh they both had birthdays around that time it was a birthday trip they both had a really good time i made sure i did all this everywhere we went i made sure that they sang to them or brought him a cake or some sparklers or a couple clubs we went to i put their uh had their names up on the the screen.

You know, happy birthday to both of them.

So they enjoyed themselves.

Yeah, yeah.

Were you able to watch the Super Bowl there?

Yes.

And then, yeah, Sunday, we had a little, like, we had a little Super Bowl watch party at our Airbnb, which was really nice, overlooking the water.

It was hard.

It's hard to watch international games, you know, Roger Goodell.

Damn you.

It's not hard to watch international games, but when you are overseas, it's very tough.

Like, they cut down everything.

Even the VPNs that you can get are very tough.

So I had to call him a homie in Taiwan and have him hook me up before.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think a lot of people, including myself, are fascinated by who gets homie status with Michael Sean Dugar.

You have a homie in Taiwan?

Who is this?

Yeah, I do.

Shout out to my homie Kramer.

His last name is Kramer, but he just goes by.

just by Kramer's first name is Sean.

Shout out to my homie.

Yeah,

he's from America,

but he moved, I think, to Taiwan in 2019.

He's a teacher over there.

Yeah.

Big assistant.

What did he do for you, though?

Like, how did he?

I want to understand how your Taiwanese friend assisted.

Well, hang on.

Hang on.

Before we reveal the potential illegal streaming service that Kramer provided to Michael Sean, let's figure out if Kramer is okay with us sharing this.

Nah, he'll be all right.

Kramer's fake.

He's good.

He'll love the shout out on the show, too.

I got to definitely send him this.

That's my guy.

Well, he's a big avid sports fan, right?

So he's like big Mariners guy.

a big he's from seattle so big washington huskies uh fan went to the university of idaho so like he's big vandals guy so he's trying to stream all his teams and stuff like that so he's got a handle for how to do that over there sometimes it is legal you just have to buy something different like they have international game pass over there which is perfectly legal to buy stuff but you just obviously can't buy it in america so like you got to access his game pass they have some other thing called like dazen or something i'm not sure yeah yep yep yeah i've heard about that i'm not sure if that's legal or not but i have it.

And we were able to

hook that up.

Yeah, so he's able to watch everything.

Mariners, Vandals, Huskies,

yeah, whatever.

He's a big international soccer guy.

Shout out to Kramer in Taiwan, the home in Taiwan.

Fubon Guardians, I think, or whatever.

He's like the baseball team over there.

I think Dwight Howard played for one of the basketball teams over there.

Yeah, I've been meaning to

get over there to visit him, too.

That's my dog.

Shout out to my guy.

Yeah, so we were able to watch the Super Bowl at our Airbnb.

I was able to just throw it up on my phone and then throw it up on the screen.

And then I think we stopped watching after like five minutes into the third quarter.

And we went to the end.

You know, speaking of which, that weekend, it all happens in a flash.

I don't know if there's a way because

NFL Honors, you know, about a decade ago took over, you know, there's the award announcement for mechanism for the big awards.

And for our scheduling for Super Bowl week, it's always tricky.

And it did occur to us that we didn't touch on the awards.

And because later in today's show, we're going to be paying off our year of fearless predictions to see who won the title and who gets the trophy.

That Justin,

in addition to all of Justin's responsibilities as producer, he's also now moved to Texas out of nowhere and was also responsible for both designing, ordering, and procuring a trophy that someone on this conversation will receive.

Well, someone that's not Mark and Dan.

But even on that front, there's a competition for, you know, who avoids last place.

We're going to pay that off at the end of the show.

But yeah, just real quick, super segment one of today's Super Belated Honors Award Recap.

I'm just going to go through them and

anybody that has a thought, because we do talk about this stuff throughout the season, and we really should have talked about it already.

But here we are.

Sue us.

Josh Allen wins MVP over Lamar Jackson.

I was very surprised about this.

How surprised were you guys?

I was surprised until I learned the day of the award ceremony that Josh was in town and Lamar was not.

So my conspiracy theory hat went up, kind of like how I feel about award shows, like music or like Academy Awards, where it's like, oh, this person is here and they won because they're going to be able to accept the award on TV and the other person decided to not show up.

I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but like the same thing like when Beyonce was there sitting in the front row and she's like, Oh, I won the award for album of the year.

Well, you're sitting in the front row, and you're there, so I'm, you know, uh, my conspiracy theory hat went up.

I think I found that out like the day of or something like that.

I was like, oh, he's going to win.

The thing, Jordan, that seemed crazy to me about it was, well, it wasn't crazy.

Josh Allen had a beautiful season, but Lamar, like, if you just put the stats side by side, and some of that played into the Allen obviously not playing as much down the stretch and Lamar playing to the final snap.

But the numbers were just, you know, pretty stark that the better counting season went to Lamar.

But I guess, you know, we always thought that nobody, they don't want to give a guy a third MVP, especially if there's someone else that hasn't won one yet.

So I guess that's how it worked out.

And there's always some goober in the voting that, you know, drops Lamar to fourth or fifth in their voting, which shows you how stupid some of this stuff is.

But yeah.

Yeah, to Mike's point, it was weird.

There was a rumor circulating that morning, I think because people had caught on to the fact that Josh Allen was in town and was like planning an after party

that

Saquon might win it.

So someone got nervous about the fact that it was so obvious that Josh Allen was going to win it.

And then someone, I don't know who, but it wasn't me, but someone like, someone powerful, perhaps in an agency or whatever, like leaked this rumor that started buzzing around that like Saquon might actually, and people were like, for a hot minute distracted by that so I guess it did its it did its work

yeah I I think it's interesting it shows I think how imperfect

not to sound like Mark here but like how imperfect like a human-based voting system is

just and part of it too it's it's interesting I

sometimes wonder now we're a lot more public and people who have votes are publicized and people's votes are published whether they give consent to it or not that you kind of go into it assuming that your vote, however, which way you vote, will become public information at this point.

I wonder if that subconsciously sometimes also affects how people vote, because you could see a little bit of a different split at times in this one: of, okay, well, I voted Lamar for

first team all-pro, and so then maybe the split, then I split the baby, I hate that phrase, but split the baby, and then now Josh gets my MVP vote just to sort of disperse the accolades.

I think voter fatigue is a real thing.

I think it's unfortunate because I do think Lamar was the MVP and I loved Josh Allen's season.

I said that all year and I think he won in a lot of different ways and so did Lamar.

But I think that some of that came into play.

I think it's hard too because whenever we have this conversation, like it always sounds like we're taking away from somebody else and we're not.

I like everybody.

I think that both of them were so deserving.

That is true.

I think both of them were so deserving of the award.

I do, I would have voted for Lamar, but at the same time, like I can really kind of, you could start to see some of the human flaw creeping into this process.

We've seen it from afar for years with like comeback player of the year, for example, or coach of the year, this human flaw.

And MVP has not been without its flaws.

We know this, but it is interesting.

Maybe Saquon should have won it, you know, but I do think that people were inputting, maybe there's a subconscious and then like a little split system that was at play because there are so many accolades and because it's human beings who are voting for these people.

It was pretty wild.

And first of all, like my take on awards shows in almost any industry is flawed, slightly ridiculous,

a pantomime, a joke on many levels.

In this case, like this is the one that stood out, but then they dropped.

When they kind of started to list who was actually voting, because it's not like 50 crusty AP voters from like 1986.

It's like a pretty wild collection of individuals that were given a vote.

Surprising collection.

I found some of the names.

I found that to be more stunning than any of these results.

It was like, you get a vote?

Whoa.

Okay.

Like who, Mark?

Like who?

Well, I'd have to go look at the list because I'm not trying to say

it's not.

Yeah.

Put it this way.

It's just like

different.

Yeah, I'm not saying that Heath the Gaul deserves a vote, but you know, some of the other people that get a vote, it's like, I know those people aren't tape-dogging.

I know a lot of the people that are voting are just watching highlights and reading Twitter discourse, and then they're deciding who, you know, anyway, Offens Player of the Year, Saquon Barkley.

Defensive Player of the Year, Patrick Sertan.

Offensive Rookie of the Year, Jaden Daniels.

All those are kind of, to me, slam dunks make a lot of sense.

Defensive rookie of the year, Jared Vurst.

There we go.

There's our Ram Jordan.

Comeback Player of the Year.

I'm not going to get worked up about this award because it's a dumb award that doesn't even know what it is, but they give it to Joe Burrow, who came back from an injury.

Sam Darnold had one of the great comeback seasons in the history of the sport, or at least in this millennium, I think.

But whatever, he didn't win it.

Coach of the Year, Kevin O'Connell.

He's nebulous.

A little bit surprising beating out Dan Campbell.

I like the season finale

when the Lions.

Excuse me.

Yes, I like the season.

It feels like it happened a million years ago.

When the Lions, with Aaron Glenn's masterclass on defense,

acing the Vikings to win the division title.

I I felt like that should have decided Coach of the Year and give that to Dan Campbell, but they gave it to O'Connell and they really overperformed against expectations.

So it's okay.

And then Assistant Coach of the Year, the Lions do get that with Ben Johnson.

Any other thoughts before we dig in?

Yeah, I think, and I really admire the season.

As you know, Dan, I'm like kind of sneakily in the hive with you.

I admire the season Sam Darnold had in Spades.

I think that that Coach of the Year nod also, in a subtle or not so subtle way told you what the league actually still thinks of Sam Darnold

because of the effort that it was to

kind of have that season, you know, on the on the heels of like the ascension of that quarterback and what he could do with Kevin O'Connell.

And then obviously that defense was a huge factor as well.

But I do think that that was like a not so subtle nod at kind of like some of the leagues, maybe lingering bias about Sam Darnold and kind of where they think he is.

I agree with you.

I think one of the quickest courses to win this award is to succeed with not your starting quarterback.

It's years in a row where this has happened now.

It happened with Stefansky, where I think a lot of people felt like, wait, what?

He got coach of the year because of Joe Flacco, who got comeback player of the year.

And Kevin O'Connell was faced with the same challenge, and I think really proved his own value.

I mean, his value went high, went skyrocketed this season.

So I don't have a problem over Dan Campbell, but I think

it's very narrative-driven.

And to do it with Sam Darnold is one of the the more surprising events of the entire football season.

I think Coach of the Year and MVP, this year's MVP, kind of have a similar issue, which is like the perception.

The perception the voter has of the supporting cast of the person in question that they're voting for.

Like, I thought, I saw some of the rationale from the people who had Lamar, first team, all pro, but second to Josh Allen, an MVP, which made absolutely no sense.

But the rationale that I saw that was most popular was the idea that, like, Josh did more with less, so to speak, which is dumb.

And then just dumb as a premise.

I don't need to get into the difference between their supporting casts.

But the same thing I feel like applies to Coach of the Year, to Mark's point about, like, if you just...

If you perceive, if you perceive to do more with less, you're a better coach, which I just think is a very flawed way to look at a team.

Like,

there's a lot of ways to assess coaching, whether that's like how you empower your players, strategy, how good your team is, how clean your team is, like penalty-wise, late game execution, like all of this stuff, like fourth down, aggressiveness.

Like there's so many other measures than like, oh, your quarterback got hurt.

So you're a better coach than the other.

Like that's just, that's silly.

It's an oversimplification, I feel like, in a flawed way to assess coaching.

Like Kevin O'Connell winning is fine, but just in general, I feel like both of that MVP this year and just coach the year damn near every year has that issue where it's just like, oh, who supporting Cass was crappier?

Let me vote for them.

That is, you shouldn't penalize anyone for having good people around them because you still have to get the most out of the good people around you.

I feel like in both of these voting cases this year, if your argument was like to award someone for having not as good supporting cast, your coach of the year should have been Andy Reed and your MVP should have been Mahomes.

If that was the logic, I feel like the Chiefs should have swept.

You know, it just was a bunch of flawed logic all over the place, I felt like,

in the voting this year.

Well, I think that's a good idea.

I wonder what Kramer thinks about it.

We're over the moon about these voting results as a group, you can tell.

Yeah.

Yeah, my only other minor quibble would be: would it be possible to get honors the weekend before when it's the dark week and you could really kind of clear the runway?

But I get how it works having been to many Super Bowls that they line the event up with they get everyone into this Super Bowl city a few days before the game.

You get everybody you want.

You're not going to get the same crowd, I don't think, if you do it a week earlier.

There is one intriguing quibble about the event, too, because we know a bunch of people that went to honors.

And so you go, and for like an hour and a half, you're, you know, drinking glasses of wine and drinks with people, and you're all dressed to the

first of all,

the outfits are out of control.

Like,

then you go into the event.

Like, morally safer.

Well, no, but then use outfits on top of it.

You're on a football.

I understand what that sounds like.

But then you go into the event and you're in lockdown for three and a half hours, and there's no bar.

So people are like waking up like they're coming out of hangovers and getting sober all over again by like midway through the show.

You could not.

It's kind of a disaster.

You could not pay me enough to go to NFL Honors.

They try to get well they didn't they did pay you enough at one point.

I've never been in my life.

Not in the actual event.

We did the red carpet when you famously stepped on Lauren Tannehill's compact, but otherwise, yeah, her purse.

All right.

By the way, this is going to be a lot of fun because today we're going to dig into the eight most important figures of this offseason.

Who do you really have to pay attention to?

They're going to dictate so much about what happens as the league takes shape for the 2025 season.

But before we get to that, just want to share that the all-star break is over and the NBA is hitting the final stretch of the regular season.

Underdog has tons of fun.

Oh.

Uh-oh.

Gentlemen, our time has come, and Terry's time is at an end.

We've toyed with him long enough.

We've dragged him into the pits of hell and back.

We took his wife from him, even his children.

But there is something he does not know.

Bring her in!

Lisa!

We are honored by your presence, my dear.

We have word that your beloved Terry has discovered our whereabouts here in this abandoned gravy factory.

Oh, come on.

We have planned quite a welcome party for him.

We will subdue him, then frame him for the attack on the queen's life and oh, dear lord!

Someone just killed one of my best men!

Not just anyone, you bastard.

He's here!

How did he get past our defenses?

Now, not my most trusted henchman.

Come here.

You won't shoot me.

This is beloved as my human shield.

Jeez, they are seriously getting our butts kicked here.

Brutal.

Lisa, is that you?

Woo!

I'm coming, honey.

Even if I have to kill every single person in this place to do it.

Not necessary.

We give up.

Run, mate.

Run for your lives.

Oh, hey, stop!

Stop, please, have mercy!

Please!

Did you have mercy when you made me think my wife was dead?

Huh?

Did you?

Sorry!

I'm sorry.

Wait, what about your kids?

Huh?

Anything there?

Or

I'll kill you!

You're so strong!

Is this the strength of a father filled with rage or?

Stop talking!

You hear here!

Those kids even yours!

I said

stop talking!

You have thrown me into a vat of gravy in this industrial gravy warehouse.

It is so warm and

I'm kind of into it.

Now,

I'm sinking.

I'm sinking.

And yet, I am very aroused right now.

Lisa,

I thought I'd lost you.

You'll never lose me.

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audience only.

Wow.

What a finale to the Dark Terry saga.

I'm blown away.

Beyond Justin at this point, deserving a SAG card for Justin.

What do you mean, Justin?

Well, it sounded like Justin, but what a saga.

What an incredible journey.

And you kept the audience hanging for weeks there.

We had to wait a long time.

Hey, Mark, which sounds specifically reminded you of Justin?

Towards the end, what was happening at the end there?

It's like it was a very 21st century film also in the sense that it was really long.

You know.

Mike, was the payoff what you had hoped?

A lot of death, a lot of carnage, a lot of dead bad.

Had some bad boys throwback energy?

I know that's one of your favorite film franchises.

Yeah, well, it felt very like

soap opera meets Marvel, where like uh no one's really dead, you know.

Like,

it's like, oh, yeah, at least it's alive.

It's like, oh, you know, like,

does that make sense?

No, but like, I've I've sat through uh soap operas enough with my mother and grandmother as a kid and then watched enough Marvel movies to know that if you're if your writers get creative enough, no one ever really dies

with them too, yeah, except for the kids, the kids who may or may not be Terry's kids, but and as well, no one seems concerned.

Regardless of

whose kids they are,

the only real collateral damage that seems to not be on Terry's radar ultimately.

Well, there's still children, and children are valuable from a certain point of view.

To some, maybe not others.

All right.

Pivot.

The eight most important figures in the NFL this offseason.

Mark, why don't you get us going, bud?

Well, we've mentioned this person.

There's a bit of a link.

They're kind of intertwined, but Sam Darnold and what the Vikings do with Sam Darnold.

And, you know, it's like even this morning, I'm watching Vikings beat reporters sort of saying, we don't know yet.

I think the Vikings don't exactly know or exactly how this could play out.

Because I think with Sam Darnold, there's a world where you could transition or franchise, tag Sam Darnold, and then try to get something for him.

And you're, I, the way that I...

Sam Darnold.

The way that I believe the Vikings wanted this all to work, obviously, is like to be like the Bears in their division and to be on a rookie contract with J.J.

McCarthy, who they still think very highly of.

And I just, I kind of think

it's the biggest kind of like

domino to fall in free agency because it's an interesting offseason, obviously,

where the draft offers two quarterbacks that people have doubts about and a lot of other third, fourth round type guys, but you're not building your franchise around that.

The free agency pool is thin.

And it's like, are we going to, is it the kind of thing where like you could get picks for Sam Darnold?

Because some team out there is going to love what they saw this season and say, we've got, look, if it's the Raiders or the Browns or fill in the blank, a gaping hole at that position.

And the Vikings have an answer.

Like, I will say one thing about J.G.

McCarthy real quick, and then I'll throw it to you guys.

But I watched him do like a 16-minute interview with Rich Eisen, which came about eight or nine days ago.

And it's kind of like when that rookie quarterback is injured, when it happened, you don't really hear from J.J.

McCarthy much during the season, and I didn't have a huge idea of who he was because we did learn that Sam Darnold is this incredible teammate, and that story was great.

But J.J.

McCarthy on this interview, if you go watch it, he blew my mind.

I was like, this dude is obsessed.

He's detail-oriented.

I can see why they love him.

And they have a very interesting decision to make.

And I think that it's one of the hinges of the offseason on how the Vikings solve this, what they want to do, and how it all winds up.

All right.

So let's spin it into, okay,

what are their options?

So he's an unrestricted free agent.

So you could let him walk outright.

Do you get a comp pick for that if he does walk and sign somewhere else?

Okay, so there's an option.

You can sign him to a new deal, right?

Or you can franchise tag him, and then you could basically kick the can for a year and keep the rookie as a backup for another year

or you could franchise tag him Jordan and trade him potentially so those those seem to be the options I tend to think this is an easy one that you thank Sam for his service and you let someone else bank on his long-term viability you did get a little bit as much as I love you know as the queen bee bitch of the Darnold hive I you can't look at the last two weeks in the season and completely remove it I think that probably helped the inside that building them try to solve a difficult riddle but if they ended up keeping darn another year, it couldn't be shocking, right?

Because he was so damn good for the majority of his first season in Minnesota.

Yeah, and I would have to think that Sam Darnold wants to test the market too, because he'll make more over a span of time than he would on one year on the tag.

Now, he'd make a lot of money in one year on the tag, but he would make more over time with some of those guarantees and some of that security

as a potential new franchise quarterback somewhere else.

He's really the only quarterback on this free agency market, as Mark mentioned,

who you could legitimately see securing a multi-year longer-term deal with because of what he showed last season.

Now, I am, this is

age.

Yeah, his age is a huge bonus.

What is he, 27?

And so it is interesting because

I think that all of those things are

very glowy factors to a team that

also has to ascertain whether they themselves are the right fit for Sam Darnold, who I do think, as much as he showed, would benefit from having a ready-to-play in system, a structure, a teaching progression, something that can help him keep this momentum that he has carried through the last offseason and a half about really since he started overhauling some of his own methods in San Francisco two years ago.

And I think it's interesting because everyone else is either a bridge quarterback or

a rookie, and it's a top-heavy class.

So you'd have to give up either almost no capital or assets for a one-year solution or a one-year-and-change solution, or a significant amount of capital for a solution that you can't quite be sure will work out.

In that, some of these quarterbacks are a little bit uncertain, even at the top of the draft class.

I think that with the Vikings, he becomes a trade asset as long as he stays

within a reasonable price range.

So it might almost behoove the the Vikings to sign him to a reasonable contract extension internally and then make that a tradable asset down the road once they do decide to start playing JJ McCarthy.

Or the easiest thing, I think, for everybody is that he goes.

Dan, to your point.

But I don't think that the Vikings are in necessarily a tricky spot here because

you can still trade him based off of the value he showed, even if you do extend him, as long as the contract that you do strike with him is reasonable enough to another acquiring team.

I think the worst thing the Vikings can do is move on just in the name of where they took JJ.

I think that would be like a flawed process.

Oh, we drafted him, I think, 10th.

So we got to play him at some point.

I think the focus should be, who do we think helps us win in 2025?

Assuming that that's their goal, which I imagine it is.

They probably feel like they're very close, yada, yada, yada.

All right, cool.

Who helps you do that the best?

Is it Sam?

Is it JJ?

I legitimately don't know because I haven't seen JJ play.

If you think it's Sam, then you should keep Sam.

Like, I think that's honestly the no-brainer part.

And that's up to them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's in what, yeah, you're right, Jordan.

He's 27.

I think he'll be 28 by the start of the season, but whatever.

That's like, it's fine.

Tackles and quarterbacks.

It doesn't really matter how old they are.

They can play forever.

So I think that's the question they have to ask themselves.

I would lean towards Sam probably being more likely to help them just because he's the veteran.

You know, he's got the experience.

He's played in their system, yada, yada, yada.

I think if you just say, all right, we drafted JJ high, so we eventually got got to roll with him.

I don't know.

Like, you, I, I want to win, you know, like, especially from them, they've had what, multiple seasons over the last few years where they've won at least 13 games.

That's a franchise I'm sure that feels like they're close to something.

And if you think it's Sam that can get you over the hump, I would disagree, but whatever.

They have more info than me.

If you think it's Sam, then you should keep Sam.

You know, I'm not a huge Sam guy, but like, if you want to win in 2025, you think Sam's the guy, keep him no matter really what it costs to me.

And then the galaxy brain move, right, is sign Sam and trade JJ McCarthy.

And if you were going to to do that, this is the offseason to do it because

there's not enough quarterbacks that are long-term solutions.

And there are a ton of teams, not a 10 ton, but like a quarter of the league almost.

Who is desperate for an answer quarterback?

Titans, Browns, Giants, Raiders, Jets, Steelers, maybe the Rams, probably not.

But those other teams definitely would be in the market.

And if you dangled a guy that if you talk to certain draft people out there, would say J.J.

McCarthy would be number one quarterback in this draft class, that might fetch you a huge return in draft assets, and then you have your quarterback and Sam that you believe in, and then you can really supplement the roster further with the fruits of that trade.

I think what clouds it a little bit is that, you know, J.J.

McCarthy is coming off a serious injury.

He said he's ahead of schedule, but like to your point, Mike, we don't know outside of a...

a couple shining moments in the preseason, which means very little, we don't know what kind of pro quarterback is he.

Could you ever, here's a weird one.

Could you keep keep both and you could dangle Sam Darnold as a trade situation in the season when some playoff hopeful team has their quarterback situation go to complete hell and you get higher value from Sam Darnold?

A massive potential distraction to hang over a team, though.

That would be the only thing I would.

Well, except that

McCarthy and Darnold got very close this season.

And he talked about how Darnold treated him and tutored him.

So I think, if anything, it seems like a copacetic, amiable situation.

And every time I've listened to Kevin O'Connell, I don't think they're trading J.J.

McCarthy.

Do you think that would impact their relationship if you went into the season?

Hey, Sam, we're, you know, a 50% chance we trade you on Halloween.

So, like, every week, basically, your

future is on the line with the team.

I feel like that might sour the relationship.

I think Sam's been through worse.

Yeah.

Yes, I agree with that as well.

All right.

Great way to start it, Sess Dog.

Let's see.

I'll go next.

Here's a name.

Adam Peters.

How about that?

Adam Peters, Commander's General Manager.

What a setup.

He's in the dream.

He's in the dream scenario.

Mark, what do we call the corner of the bar that we love the most?

It's usually two seats right

at the wraparound where your back is to the jukebox or the wall.

Nobody could see you from behind, but you could see the whole bar.

Devil's Perch.

Devil's Perch.

If you go back to the film JFK, John Candy, who's sweating profusely, makes it very clear that one of his codes in life is you never sit, and I'd say this as a guy, I can only speak for myself,

in the middle of a room.

You want to be by the wall.

You want nothing behind you.

So Devil's Perch touches on that instinct.

Absolutely.

And that's where Adam Peters is in the NFL right now.

He's sitting at Devil's Perch.

He's got a jack and coke in front of him, and he's just surveying the land because there are certain teams where you just know by the end end of this this cycle, the free agency draft cycle, that everyone's going to be just head over heels for.

And this is the perfect stew.

You have a team that is coming off an NFC title game appearance that obviously

they're ahead of schedule.

They have in Jaden Daniels, a rookie quarterback just entering the second year of his deal.

He might already be the best quarterback in the NFC right now.

Like this is the type of player they have.

And they have

nearly 70 million in cap space, according to over the cap, that's third in the league right now.

They have a lot of free agents right now, 28 actually.

They only have 46 players under contract, but the guys that they probably want to bring back are not mega pieces in terms of the cost to keep them.

So that is manageable.

So that's a long way of saying that they have,

in addition to draft picks, they have a ton of money to spend and they have the core of a roster that came within one game of the Super Bowl.

So what's going to happen is they're going to make a couple of big moves here in free agency.

We'll see what happens in the draft, and people are going to be picking the commanders to beat the Eagles and get to the Super Bowl.

Just mark my words.

Let's see if it happens.

The reason why he's such a key figure, Adam Peters, is now you got to actually make the moves to make the team better.

So he will make big moves both in draft and free agency and potentially trade in Vegas right now, Mike.

You have the odds are saying that Miles Garrett is going to be a commander.

That would be a major piece for them, over-the-hump type piece, and it fills a need at edge pass rusher that they've been lacking really since Chase Young didn't quite hit for them.

Big moment for Adam Peters because this doesn't come around a lot for teams.

Like, you're not in this moment.

If you hit it out of the park, you could actually be a Super Bowl team, but you could also make mistakes by getting overzealous in this spot.

It's happened a lot of times.

Yeah, this is a good offseason to be him, you know, because Jaden is just really attractive, I feel like, for free agents.

you know it's just like oh man it's almost like the effect that uh victor wimbenyama's having in the nba i think he's out for the year now yeah like the idea like man I should go play with that guy, you know, he's going to get me to where I want to be, particularly guys who are like, maybe you've already made money.

Like, this would be like your third deal or something like that.

And you're just like, you know what?

I've been getting my butt kicked most of my career.

I want to win.

Shoot, let me go play with Jaden Daniels, even if you're on defense.

You know what I mean?

Even if you are a pass rusher.

And I think the really good part for the commanders is like, I don't think they have to go crazy spending, like, have one of those

the Patriots won that offseason, just spent a bunch of money.

I think that was like Mac Jones' rookie year.

Uh, I don't think you need to have one of those offseasons, you just got to plug a few spots, kind of like they did last offseason.

They didn't spend super big, they just found the right guys who either played for DQ or some of his assistants in the past.

I think that's the offseason they can have.

But now, if there's a tie, this is probably the difference between last year's offseason and this offseason.

If you're like an edge rusher, you're out a San Reddick or whatever, you're like, you know what?

I got an offer from the Commanders, but I also have an offer from

Baltimore or something, you know, whatever.

Or maybe give a bad franchise, you know, Cleveland or something.

You're like, all right, I got the same offer.

The ties are going to start going to Washington.

And like you said, that's a great spot to be in.

It happens quick.

The biggest, I think, decision on the roster.

Peters has, keep an eye on this one, is Marshawn Lattimore, which they gave up two

mid-round picks, and he was bad for them.

He never looked healthy.

He looked terrible in the playoffs.

They would have no dead cap move money left

behind if they decide to move on from him.

But then that would open up

another

gap on their roster.

So keep an eye on what they do with Lattimore, too.

So a lot of decisions to make a lot of money to be spent, and they have a chance to really go for it.

All right.

Jordan, you're up.

Yeah,

I have

for my first choice.

I have Duke Tobin, the director of player personnel for the Cincinnati Bengals.

Now, I know you guys talked about the T.

Higgins possible tag situation earlier this week, so I won't get in too much about that specific discussion, but I think Tobin merits inclusion here because I truly believe that the moves the Bengals make or don't make this offseason is going to have a significant ripple effect across the league and specifically whether they can get the receivers.

I'm not even talking about Trey Hendrickson, who they may ultimately decide to prioritize over these receivers that Joe Burrow is actively opining and lobbying for and putting sort of an unprecedented amount of public pressure on this franchise to get it, to get them locked in, but also like to make him and the receivers happy with how they're treated, aka a contract versus a tag in the process.

And I think that actually this is a much bigger story or the beginning of a much bigger story involving the quarterback and the franchise.

And what I could absolutely and genuinely see becoming a pivot point in their release in their relationship either way.

And if it's a pivot point toward the negative, then this is a conversation that now affects like 25 other teams in the National Football League.

I think that's very interesting.

I mean,

it's a team that's structured.

I mean, you talk about Duke Tobin, they haven't had a natural kind of general manager.

Like they've obviously, under Mike Brown, just been structured differently.

They were more of a mom and pop franchise money-wise, but you've got a quarterback that

is extremely and much more powerful than your head coach.

Like, I think it's like

Taylor's done a good job overall, and he's had to do a lot without Joe Burrow as well.

But, like, it's a pretty anonymous head coaching individual with one of the most powerful young quarterbacks in the league who's out there openly, verbally trumping, trumpeting the idea of add this player, keep this, or else.

It's like, or else, like, what happens if Joe Burrow doesn't get his way?

Like, it feels like I know people are brought up like Carson Palmer, but the Bengals are not a team that are a destination.

They're not.

And so if you're Joe Burrow, you're looking at your own career.

And if you don't get what you wish, what could happen?

I think that's interesting.

And I think we're in a time, too, to that point where, like, Joe Burrow

does not have a history of being.

out in the front in public, talking about business matters, talking about in-house matters.

I mean, he's a pretty private guy.

He's actually relatively quiet.

His teammates love him.

So for him to be this public about like, like, he's up and down during Super Bowl week on all these different shows outlining contract structures and outlining the ways that the Bengals front office could get these contracts done if they wanted to.

I think that like, and I like the Bengals and I think they're, I think they're fine, right?

And obviously they went to the Super Bowl in 2021, but I think they've underplayed their potential year over year, especially with Joe Burrow.

And I think think as a front office, they've acted as though just because they paid Joe Burrow, that like he has to stay there for life.

And I'm going to be honest, I think that's an extremely dangerous game to play within that power structure that you just mentioned, Mark, when the quarterback is the franchise, who, like I said, 25 to maybe 30 other teams would love to make the happiest man on the planet.

Yeah, I'll take it a step further with what you guys are saying.

This offseason determines whether Burrow's their guy.

It really does.

Like, he does, like you said, Jordan, he's not, like, super, like, out there, but

he does seem like a dude who's not just going to sit there and settle for mediocrity, you know, particularly if all his homies get to bounce.

Like, when I was watching all those interviews, he was speed dating all over Super Bowl.

Yeah.

He's like, yo, pay my homies.

I'm out of here.

He didn't say the I'm out of here part, but to me, it felt implied.

Like, if I was the ownership, I'd be like, yo, we're going to lose Joe if,

if we don't listen and pay to people.

Now, it's a dangerous game to play to be like, oh, yeah, we're just going to do whatever Joe says.

The Jets can tell you about how that goes when you just listen to your quarterback and let him kind of run the show.

But I think the effect is still powerful, man.

Like, yo, Joe is not going to sit there and just stink.

Probably not going to want to sit there through a rebuild.

Gonna do the same thing Miles Garrett just did.

Like, yo, if the plan is to like suck, get me out of here.

And yeah, so if I was the Bengals, man, I'm listening to Joe because I'm looking at this offseason to Jordan's point, like, yo, man, this could be what this could determine whether we have a good relationship and whether he wants to be here.

And the minute he doesn't, yeah, every team wants Joe Burrow and they'll do whatever, they'll do whatever they need to get him.

Uh, and understandably, so.

And Burrow's Burrow, I think, is trying to.

I think what he's doing here, he's boxing in Tobin.

He's putting Tobin in a situation that's impossible, uh, where Tobin might not see this as the path to go, but he's going to have to do it.

Or, yeah, it's going to be Carson Palmer 2.0.

So, in a way, Jordan, it's

Burrow not only by doing that car wash and being vocal about this, it's basically very much a Texas standoff about who runs this organization.

And that it doesn't, as we just saw, like you said, with the Jets, it doesn't always end well when you just let the quarterback gets what he wants.

But I don't think it's at all like Rogers in the Jets situation.

Like, I don't think it could be further from that, other than the fact that two very different people.

I don't mean it like that, but yeah.

Yeah, no, it's not, that's not even what I'm alluding to either.

It's like, it's because, like,

that quarterback hand-picked bad people.

Like, he hand-picked a bad offensive coordinator.

He hand-picked bad teammates or declining teammates to join him.

He hand-picked situations that just were not effective.

This is a no-brainer.

Have a quarterback who has rapport in chemistry with two of the most exciting young one-and-two tandem receivers and one who just won the Triple Crown, whose contract has not been figured out yet either.

And

this is like...

you know, football 101 in terms of the sense that it makes to lock this trio in for as long as you can and get younger, draft and develop on defense.

And again, it's a very small scouting department.

It is a very small front office and draft and develop on defense and go cheap on defense like a lot of other teams are doing successfully when they have a quarterback cheap and energetic, specifically.

The latter part is very important on defense when you have a quarterback that can lift the rest of the roster in that way.

And it's, you know, I just think that I'm glad you guys brought up the Jets situation.

I just don't think that it's necessarily similar.

And I think that teams will use it as a reason to say, okay, well, this is a dangerous thing to give the quarterback everything he wants.

He hasn't asked for shit.

This is it.

This is the one thing that he's actually finally, after years and years and years of falling short and underperforming expectations, this is the one thing that he has publicly asked for.

And I think that says a lot.

And I also think it's telling that you're already starting to see the organizational retaliation sort of subtly because you get these things floated via sources and it's clearly, you know, coming from the team where it's like, well, we're going to try.

And it's like, well, that's just gaslighting.

Like, I'm not,

if you can't get the guy what he's asking for, just make sure you have that conversation because you have to figure out now then what happens for a future without Joe Burrow.

And one last note, because this just came out: the salary cap continues to go up.

They even get help.

Yeah, it is up to $281.5 million per club for the 2025 season.

And it's crazy where things, you know, how that has ballooned.

That means the salary cap will have increased by at least $100 million since 2018 when it was $177 million.

And it's been up more than $50 million in the last two years.

So

you can't cry poverty.

And there's so much money coming into all these teams through the TV deals and everything else that if you're a Bengals fan, Yeah, don't let Cincinnati gaslight you.

This is, by the way, one of the reasons our great late friend Chris Wesling divorced the Bengals, that they tend to f up these situations.

Let's hope they don't do it here with what is a very, very talented core of players.

Mike, I understand you have two figures that are kind of intertwined.

So let's hear the fourth and fifth most important figures of the offseason.

Yeah, and you say you can't cry poverty.

The Bengals will give it a shot.

Certainly give it a shot, I'm I'm sure.

But yeah, I have two guys, and they're kind of connected in the sense that they shape the draft.

And I guess, yeah, a lot of the offseason in that way.

The first one is Shadur Sanders, and the second one is Cam Ward.

They're kind of intertwined in that way.

Start with Shadur.

I feel like he is probably the more polarizing of the two quarterback prospects in this draft.

Some of it is the on-field stuff.

Some of it is just, you know, his last name and how he carries himself, how his dad carries himself, how people feel about his father, how people feel about just his program, the fact that he just dropped another rap single.

You know, he's one of those guys.

His whole attitude, you know, the fact that they like play his song after he scores.

How is it, by the way?

The most recent single was kind of whatever, but I love his first song, Perfect Timing.

I actually call him Perfect.

I refer to him as Perfect Timing.

I love the song.

But like, you know, you guys know how the draft season goes.

That's not the quarterback people want, you know.

um

whether it's like a guy who has other interests like music or like remember josh rosen's pre-draft that was kind of weird it was like these questions about whether he was like just like a smart know-it-all asshole like dick guy i think he had a hot tub in his uh in his dorm room i think at some point

his pre-draft was weird too so it isn't just like do they just like hate the braggadocious black guy too it's just like nah the draft process is just weird with how we care how we view the quarterback so like but your view on him i say i had to bring all that up your view on him if you're a team will shape a lot of the offseason.

You look at the teams at the top, Tennessee, Cleveland, New York, the Giants,

New England, Jacksonville, the Raiders, and New York, again, the Jets.

Like half of those teams all need quarterbacks.

Was like, all right, what are you willing to do to go up maybe if Tennessee doesn't want them?

Does Cleveland want them?

Will the Giants take them?

I think he was out there playing catch with Malik Neighbors during the Heisman ceremony.

He's like teasing Browns fans.

I think he just did with like who he uses on Madden.

Like, I feel like how teams view Shadur and all that comes with him has going to shape the draft a lot, which is like half the damn offseason, particularly the top of the draft.

And then, like, related to that is Cam Ward, too.

He's slowly, I feel like, getting into that like polarizing place,

not because of his talents as much as just like the attitude that comes with him.

Like, if you watch some of these, like, buddy cop comedy stuff that him and Shadur are putting out with their workouts, like Cam's a very like trash-talky, arrogant, brash dude, like, arrogant/slash confident.

You know what I mean?

Like the way he teases Shadur and talks about how great he is and things like that.

Like they were just joking about, I hope Cam was like, I hope I play you in the Super Bowl.

Like he's that type of guy, and that's going to rub some teams the wrong way.

And some teams are going to be like, hell yeah, I want to sign up for that.

And like Tennessee and Cleveland are in two interesting spots with how they're one and two in the draft.

Do they want quarterbacks?

Are they turned on or turned off by those two guys?

I feel like the way teams view the attitudes and not to mention just the play of those two quarterbacks, really is going to determine half of the offseason, really.

Do you, like, I know Dion

recently sort of said this idea that he is going to hand pick like the Mannings, what team his son would be allowed to play for.

And he shot that down to some degree, which I think to me felt like a comment about Cleveland and certainly Tennessee and other teams.

Like,

it just seems like the right, the wrong organization taking this quarterback, it feels like there's an element of disaster with the Dion part of it, like, and the control and the,

do you get what I'm saying?

It's just like,

like, if Cleveland picked, like, Shadora Sanders, I'm like, this is not going to go well.

I just feel like this is not going to go well.

And it's not even like, I mean, they're saying these two quarterbacks wouldn't have even been in the top six of quarterbacks a year ago.

So there's that side of it too.

But the whole like Sanders experience feels like it's handpicked for the right team.

It has to be the right organization.

I think pushing pushing back on that slightly, I mean, yes, I do think that organizations will think that, certainly.

Like, I do think that.

But I think if you are Cleveland,

I mean, what better way to push out the absolute stink of the last several years and the decisions that they made at quarterback that then subsequently dragged the entire organization down and the franchise down with it that they created?

What better way to just like fully like sage the place all at once than bringing in somebody a tandem, a father-son tandem, but especially a quarterback with that large of a personality who immediately completely smothers everything that had previously happened there and is essentially like the brand moving forward.

Like, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

I think that makes a lot of people forget about all the woes of the past, especially if he plays well, especially if he's a good partner.

No, no, I'm just saying I just don't trust.

I'm not pushing back as an argument.

I'm just presenting another thought.

Like,

that I just, I wonder if that's another way to look at it.

Is like,

you know, you could, you could have, you could have been wallowing and all of a sudden it's like, okay, well, we're just going to push that mess to the side, you know, and then, hey, look over here.

You know, we did this and look at our new brand and we didn't ever do any of that.

You know, that's over there.

So I just, I wonder if that's another way to look at it.

And just in like Dion's defense,

not that I know him personally, but we don't really know how he would hand, You know, there's this idea that maybe he'd be like a LeVar ball type guy, but that would be probably annoying to a team.

But maybe, you know, Deion's done it all.

He's seen it all.

He knows how the NFL works and

how you can go to any, even Tennessee.

You're Titans, Justin.

You can go just like...

Remember when Cam Newton went to the Panthers?

They're the worst team in football.

And then they're in the Super Bowl a few years later.

You could revitalize any city

if you are the right guy and you get the right support around you.

So, you know, we'll see.

These guys are so important

in this particular offseason because there's not a lot of choices in this draft.

And here are these two dogs, potentially.

All right, let's take a break and then we'll hit the other half of this conversation.

Sest Dog, I'll throw it to you.

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All right, we are now going through another round let's be quick on this round uh most important figures let's give mark a break um after that i had a read i'll go with the i have a quick question though real quick do you guys ever think about how htc is an anagram for thc

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i want to talk about you know we've we've hit on the nfc east with the commanders i want to talk about jerry jones i'm i'm curious what becomes of the Dallas Cowboys this offseason.

This feels like a very strange time for the Dallas Cowboys coming off a 7-10 season.

They're coming off a season,

a previous offseason when they spent less than $20 million in free agency, and everyone came out of that thinking, huh, the Cowboys seem to have a lot of flaws on their roster.

And then that's exactly what we saw.

And that was before Dak Prescott got hurt.

Now, Dak Prescott is healthy,

assumedly, and the Cowboys have more money to spend, but they have a new coach in Brian Schottenheimer.

That didn't get people that jazzed up.

And then you look at

where they're at right now, Mike.

You have the Washington Commanders.

We just talked about it.

They're ready potentially to be a true Super Bowl contender.

They kind of already are.

If you make it to the NFC title game, the Eagles just dominated the NFL and won the Super Bowl.

That's in their division.

And the Cowboys, you know, are a team that loves to make a splash.

They could really use it, but they could also use a smart offseason to address many, many holes on a roster that really showed themselves

over the last season.

They need to figure out their running game.

Connor did a great job just underlining, again, how important it is to be able to run the football.

They have now that offensive line.

They've sprung some leaks there.

They got to fix up the interior on both sides of the line.

Cornerback, linebacker, these are all areas of need, and it's all set against the backdrop of an increasingly impatient fan base that wants the Cowboys to

be something again, to matter.

Right now, they're drifting towards a relevance in the current NFL landscape.

Let's see what Jared does with a 12th pick and some money to spend.

Yeah, I think they're like the popular pick to take,

what does he say?

Ashton Genty, when you get his name right, which I don't think they should do.

I do think they should fix their running game, but I feel like they have some issues up front.

That's like a luxury pick that I don't think they can afford because of the state of their roster.

Jerry's one of those GMs.

He's among, I think, like you could probably put the Steelers in this bucket, the Packers a little bit before last offseason, the Seahawks as well.

It's teams that treat free agency as like

plugging a few holes, but they really want to build their team around the draft.

really a splash team like that.

Don't spend a lot on external free agents generally as a philosophy.

I'm very curious if Jerry is like willing to pivot from that a little bit, maybe feeling some urgency because of the quality of the division.

Like even if you just think the Giants will be the Giants still, which is probably true, like, yeah, read the room, Jerry.

Like the Commanders are not going anywhere, as we just talked about with all the luxury that Adam Peters has afforded this offseason.

And the Eagles.

Clearly,

Howie Roseman has done some deal with some deity to just be able to build these like super teams over the last few years.

So he's not going anywhere.

Neither are the Eagles.

It's like, Jerry, you can't just stick with your plan.

Like, oh, this is how we operate.

I'll fix it in the ways that I know how to fix it.

He's got to, I think, pivot from his philosophy if he wants to, to your point, Dan, like matter, not just in the league in his own damn division.

Like, you can just be, you know, the third kid in your own division, which we know that Jerry just cannot handle.

The only thing I'd say about Jones, because it's like he's such a magnet for critique and it's very fair.

And they had a clunky offseason that seemed to have was directionless a year ago.

But over the last like five or six years, like Jerry Jones, the drafter, and the people around him, like they've had some pretty good drafts.

Like there, that was not the case with the Cowboys for a long time where they just, they, they botched a ton of draft picks.

Like, they've been pretty strong in that area, but you're right, because there is a doorway if the Giants picking as high as they are and get the quarterback they want, that the Cowboys, there's a doorway for the Cowboys to be the worst team in the division.

And in a renaissance of team building and drafting and the way that we treat free agency and coaching, the Cowboys to me feel like from a different time.

They feel behind cutting-edge teams on a number of fronts.

And it's hard to sell because your owner is at the end of his life to some degree.

The quarterback, I'm not sure we believe in.

Well, no, I mean, I'm not even sure I believe in the quarterback.

There's a very low percentage of this that is Smiles and Glory Hope.

Yeah, I mean, that's true.

And we all die.

So, Mark, thank you for reminding us how inconsequential all of this is ultimately, because Jerry Jones is going to die soon.

Yes, go on.

Well, I just think they're in a bit of a dark place franchise-wide.

And it starts inside their own division where they, no matter what,

they're the center of sports, but they're not right now.

They're not the center of the NFL.

And that's a weird place for the Dallas Cowboys to be.

They're a team of indifference.

As a matter of fact, I wanted to be a coach.

Thank you, Jerry.

They're a team of indifference to me.

And what I mean by that is other teams neither fear them nor really respect them, but not in a mean way.

More so, they're just indifferent to them.

And I think that is a product of some of these off-season enterprises or lack thereof that they have.

gotten themselves into.

And really, it seems that they've done this for the sake of being talked about as a brand versus actually doing things of substance other than and their front office specifically.

I think their

real GM actually, or their director of personnel, just got an extension that has done a nice job, but it's always so behind the scenes with all of the mess that they create because for the sake of creating and for the sake of driving conversation, I made a pledge to myself this offseason that I'm not going to get pulled in to this bait that they dangle about, oh, will they or won't they resign Micah Parsons or extend Micah Parsons?

Is he on the trade on the trade block?

I'm just calling bullshit right now because he is one of the best players, the best young players in the NFL.

He's one of of the best pass rushers we've seen come into the NFL in a very, very long time.

And even if you're Jerry Jones and you make all of these boneheaded decisions and all of these like non-movement decisions over the last couple of years and you do nothing, that is such a no-brainer that I'm not even going to play into that discussion.

This is my pledge.

I make this in front of you guys.

If you catch me doing it, decide my punishment later or whatever.

But like, I'm not going to, I'm just not going to do it because I don't buy it.

I fell for it with Dak Prescott and I don't buy it.

And so, but I, but I do think to the point that you guys are making, this is just a team of perceived indifference by everyone else because they don't move the needle unless, Dan, to your point, Jerry, Jerry Jones finally decides, yes, I'm really going to move the needle.

We're just going to throw him gravy, by the way.

All right, Mark, you're up.

So

I'm picking Jim Harbaugh.

And as an addendum, Joe Horitz, the GM.

This is a team in a very interesting place right now.

And you went 11-6.

The playoff game was a disaster.

But in general, we saw part of that transformative Jim Harbaugh element to this.

And I love the relationship between him and Justin Herbert.

They just seem absolutely to adore each other.

This team has 46 open roster spots, the Chargers, right now.

They've got the fifth most cap room in the league.

And if you go look at like dead cap, and that's starting to not even matter with what's happening with the salary cap, but like like the sixth lowest dead cap.

So they've done a nice job with the books over the last couple of years under Staley.

Brandon Staley, they had the most expensive defense, and it was not working well.

Like all that's changed.

And so there is an and Daniel Popper from the athletic noted, I think this would be a surprise, but they could even, if they wanted to make some major moves, you could move on from Joey Bosa and save 25 million additional in cap space.

I don't think you do that, but this is a team that right now, they have obvious needs at wide receiver.

They struggled with that and did the best they could, but there are people like DK Metcalf that could move, Devontae Adams.

You could go sign like Trey Smith along your offensive line.

And their line, they've got two good tackles, and it becomes more and more like the Jim Harbaugh vision.

So I think it's a huge offseason for a team that had issues last year, had some holes, but still won 11 games and hung around inside their own division.

And year two of Jim Harbaugh to me is a very exciting time for a Chargers team that, I mean, even in LA, they're completely overshadowed by five other professional sports teams.

Like, he's going to have to continue to change the way we think about the Chargers, but they're in a very good place to do it if they spend their money well and if they draft well.

ESPN's Dan Graziano reported that Bosa is likely to be cut by the Chargers at some point before his $12.36 million roster bonus has been paid out in March.

Also, Mike Khalil Mack is...

scheduled to be a free agent.

So, you know, if they were to say goodbye to Bosa and Mac is either out the door or retiring or going somewhere else, that they have to kind of redo that front seven potentially as well.

So they have work to do, but yeah, they have like the commanders who went deeper in the playoffs, but there's a lot of reasons to be excited if you kind of hit this offseason and nail it.

Yeah, the Chargers seem to be on a long list of teams whose offseason takeaway based on how they got bumped from the postseason is probably going to be, we need to be better up front.

They got whipped in that game against Houston.

On both sides, I feel like that is probably going to be Greg Roman and Jim Harbaugh's takeaway.

Like, we all see, man, they should probably go get a receiver, whereas they're like, nah, we should go get a new center and a new guard.

And both, all of those things are true, but in terms of priorities, I would guess that Greg and Horwitz, how you say their GM's name?

Horwitz?

Horritz.

Horritz, Joe Horitz.

Horitz, yeah.

That they're all going to be like, yeah, let's go get maybe not Trey Smith, but whatever.

Like, let's just go beef up our front before we go trade for DK or whoever, Devontae, Cooper Cup, cup what whatever cup i think would be fun there uh but i those uh separately though mark i like i like the idea of like creating like a an urgency power rankings for every team based like weighted by how close the owner is to dying like that's probably gonna be like a fun slash morbid off-season strategy i think that's kind of how i view the cowboys too just it just not as dark as i guess i just like thinking about like um Justin having to build out the YouTube screen grab for that one, like what he what he comes down with,

what flattering photo he uses.

I think about that with the Falcons too, like Arthur Blank.

I'm like, I'm like, I just, I measure his impatience or slash urgency by like, how long does he think he's got, you know, which is not the greatest way to look at it, but it is kind of funny.

But yeah, I do think the Chargers are in position to, if they make a few moves with all the money that they have, I think they're just a tick below the commanders actually in cap space, could be right there in an AFC championship type of situation, particularly if they strengthen their trenches.

Close this out, Jordan.

Yeah, and this one could possibly go quick, or it could turn into a Game of Thrones or clue-like battle between us all.

Mine is

interesting.

It was Mark with the chandelier or with the candlestick.

That's a big lift if it's the chandelier.

High on Vaya.

Mine is Ben Johnson.

In the first year of a head coach of the possible caliber and certainly of the status of Ben Johnson, it's not going to just be about overhauling previous elements of the roster and of his assistant coaching staff or about even diving into the Caleb Williams development project, which is super important, obviously.

It's also about establishing a power structure.

And in Chicago, the Bears have not had congruence between the tenures of their GM, their head coach, or their quarterback, all at the same time, all at once, for years.

One has been put into place while the other two are there, or one has been there and the other two come in,

or any number of combinations of those things.

And so too it is now.

Ryan Poles and Caleb Williams are in place.

Poles hired Ben Johnson.

Does the power structure stay this way?

Or after coming from a place like Detroit, where Dan Campbell and Brad Holmes, without previous experience together, were matched together by ownership and then developed together into, I think, one of the best partnerships, if not the best partnerships in the NFL right now to rebuild that team.

Does Ben Johnson sort of take a leaf from that book?

In Detroit, the head coach is the face of the team despite that relationship.

Minnesota, Kevin O'Connell, Quesia Doflamenza, also a good partnership.

Kevin O'Connell is still the face of the team.

In Green Bay, Matt LaFleur came into the organization and did not have much power, did not have much say over the roster initially.

Over time, with him and Brian Gudekinst, now Matt LaFleur, again, the face of the team.

Kind of wondering in the NFC North, which I think is one of the defining spaces of the NFL right now, what Ben Johnson thinks of all of this and what sort of power lovers he starts to pull as he gets his feet under him.

Isn't it?

This is more kind of like a broader conversation based off what you're saying, which is...

Ben Johnson, this is his first head coaching job.

You know, he obviously rocketed up the

status board in the last couple of years.

But it is still, this is a young guy that's getting his first head coaching job and all the transition that comes with that.

Like, how much power, how much responsibility do you foist upon one individual when they're doing something for the first time?

And, and does it, there's probably logic to like, okay, maybe Ben Johnson wants to be like some of these other guys you've named in time, but if you give it to him all at once, that might not put the team or the coach in the best position to be successful.

You kind of got to be smart about how you handle this stuff, right?

Yeah, I agree with you 100%.

I think that there's a hubristic element to some of the things we see coaches, first-year head coaches, and young head coaches take on

or think they can take on immediately.

I think that that's something to watch across the league, which is another reason why I brought this up.

Is like, I think that that's a defining characteristic of whether some of these teams will be successful or not with the young, especially their younger or inexperienced head coaches that they've brought in.

But I would sort of wonder if it would be foisted upon Ben Johnson, or if because he is known to be hyper-aggressive, very detail-obsessed, and sort of type A qualities, and, like I said, extremely demanding and determined, I wonder if it's something he ultimately looks around and goes in and takes because he wants to do things a certain way over time.

Now, I think the ideal scenario for the Bears is that this is a beautiful collaboration and partnership,

sort of underneath the overall umbrella of Kevin Warren, who does seem to have the top of the pyramid of that power structure.

But I just don't necessarily see, based on all the data we have about all the incongruence between these bears in these leadership positions over the last several years, we don't have any proof that that will be the case.

And with a Ben Johnson who's calling out like coaches by name, opposing coaches by name in his press conference, and he's coming in and like, you know, setting quite a tone, I think, even though I think he was thinking, I'm being friendly, right?

Like, in his, in his initial comments with the building, who is sitting at the lectern, standing at the lectern and being like, I made my way myself with, you know, obviously, I built what I have and I, I earned what I have.

I'm not someone with a famous last name or a famous family, like direct shots at all of these people who are sitting in successful positions.

That was a man feeling himself.

But it was, it was to me, it was in a certain, like, less about ego and more about taking this power stance of like, we're going to do things my way.

And I don't know how much that emerges over this season, but polls already seem to be on tenuous ground.

You know, he, he made our over at the athletic, myself and Mike Jones, he made our 50 under 40 list.

He made that list.

not without question and not without like several months of debate over this.

He made it because he hit home runs on the most coveted people in the last two cycles, whether it was the quarterback in Caleb Williams, or at the who was at the time, or Ben Johnson as the head coach.

And that's the thing is that, does that eventually come around to haunt him a little bit?

Just wondering.

I think we're going to see a lot unfold in that organization over the next several years.

Very interesting.

And by the way, check out the NFL 50 under 40 young coaches ascending along with other league decision makers.

Mark wondered on a text thread whether he would make a 50 over 50.

That would be cool because it would give our show a little pop.

So if you do do that, Jordan, a supplement on elder people in the business, Mark, keep them in mind.

Well, that list seems to have a lower Q rating attached to it.

Mark, you are the list.

Just like a 70,000-word profile on Mark.

All right.

Transition.

By the way, did you know

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audience only.

All right, hit that music, Justin.

That might have been a better ad read for me.

Like, that seemed manageable versus the Russian novel based on drugs.

You know, we're trying to, what I'm trying to do, think about it, because if you never learn how to do the more mouthful type reads, I'll always have to do them.

And we are partners, we're colleagues.

I'm trying to help get you to that point.

That's fair, but you know that if I had to go do it again right now, like I wouldn't make the same gaffe that I made two times in a row.

We just can't risk it.

It's like when you train a dog to not have to go to the bathroom over longer and longer periods of time when the dog is growing up.

This is the same type of concept being applied to you, right?

It's no different than that.

Yes, Justin.

I was going to give Mark a pass for the live show read because if you remember, like it was in the rundown, but Mark didn't have the rundown, so I had to text him the read, which stripped all the formatting out, right?

He's just reading it off his phone.

Was this the previously failed Mark read?

Yeah.

The Super Bowl recap show.

It was a live stream, so we couldn't stop down.

We just had to roll with it.

But this one, I mean, I don't know if Dan texted you the read.

I assumed you were reading it out of the rundown, where there is lots of formatting, like you know, it goes to bold italic where it's like pretty clear that this is different text.

I was, I just completely,

this is this was a titanic level disaster.

We, we've, we, the post-mortem has completed.

Uh, let's uh end the show by celebrating the fearless prediction champion of 2024-25.

Alright, so

give me a little applause.

Have you a little applause?

Everybody in their tuxedos.

I mean, really, it's no more ridiculous than a bunch of people wearing tuxedos and gowns to announce who won comeback player of the year.

Let's be honest.

No.

Alright, so here were the stakes going into into the final Super Bowl prediction.

I believe, I believe, Justin, you know, tell us what the stakes were, like who was where and what was what.

All right, heading into the final predictions for Super Bowl Sunday, Jordan sat atop the standings at 9 and 11.

with a record of 9 and 11.

Mike, right behind her at 8 and 12.

I right behind them at 7 and 13.

And then way down the standings, Mark and Dan

tied at 3 and 17.

We also had Connor involved.

Connor gave two predictions that we said would each count for six points.

No, okay.

We don't need to talk about Connor.

He's not here.

Okay, so those were the standings heading into Super Bowl Sunday show.

And did we, were these worth double?

Was this double weighted Super Bowl Sunday?

Yes, these were worth double because that way we wouldn't have a tie and Jordan would have a chance to jump Mike for the win.

Or if I got mine right and they both got theirs wrong, I could tie Mike, but then the tiebreaker would be the Super Bowl

itself.

Got it.

All right, so there were really two competitions here, first place and last place.

Let's start with first place here.

What were the predictions on Super Bowl Sunday, and did anybody get them right?

Let's start with Jordan.

Saquon Barkley held under 100 rushing yards, still wins Super Bowl MVP.

No.

So that's double.

If he would have bobbled that catch down the sideline and really gotten going in the passing game with a touchdown there, like, you know, he could see it happening.

I feel like I would have won this.

All right.

Bad news, he didn't.

But good news, Michael Sean Dugar.

Eagles, at least two plays of 50-plus yards.

Chiefs, zero plays more than 25 yards.

Mike, just, it wasn't there for you.

I know, also, your money-mike parlay was very Saquon-dominant-heavy, as I recall.

So, you lost a lot of people money.

Little Susie, no braces in 26 or 25.

I was all over the Eagles, though, as winners.

That's true.

Yeah, that was a profitable bet there.

But, yes, otherwise, not so well done.

All right, nobody would have felt good if Graver came in through the back door and won this thing.

So, thankfully, that didn't happen.

Patrick Mahomes will fail with a chance to lead a game-winning or slash-tying drive.

As we know, the Chiefs weren't even competitive in this game, so he finishes 7-15.

Now,

we'll let you know what that means.

Dan Hansis, Chiefs, 50-plus-yard touchdown to Hollywood Brown or Xavier Worthy.

Bang.

Oof.

Got it.

Actually, it was just a 50-plus-yard play, as I recall, wasn't it?

I checked, actually, right before we started, and you did say touchdown, and you also said to Hollywood Brown.

And I was like, you don't have to make it specifically to Hollywood Brown.

And you were like, okay, to Hollywood Brown or the rookie.

You didn't actually say Xavier Worthy's name, but I'm giving you credit for it because you did say the rookie.

And yeah, because why not?

By the way, it should also be stated that it was exactly 50 yards.

So it was a 50-yard touchdown to Xavier Worthy.

Two points for the Zuzzer.

Goes out strong 5-17.

Does Mark escape the cellar alone?

Saquon Barkley over 200 running yards.

Mark finishes 3-19.

That's hard to do.

Yeah, which means.

I just want to look at it from that angle.

That's a challenging way to take care of the season to go 3-19.

Which means Mark finishes in dead last place.

But the winner of the Fearless Prediction Challenge in 2024, hyphen 25,

Jordan Rodrigue.

And there's the trophy Justin has in Texas

will be shipped to California.

so nice, Justin.

Wait, what's wrong with that?

You said it wasn't good.

Well, here's where I was at.

I was debating between getting something incredibly silly and unrelated to what we do at all.

Like, there was a trophy that had been given out to like a weed dispensary that had weed leaves all over it.

And I was like, that'd be funny if I got that trophy.

And then there was like a car, there was a football.

But I decided to just go with a classic iconic cup trophy.

I believe this was once used for a golf tournament.

No, wait, no.

I had this custom made for our show.

Sorry, I forgot.

This was custom-made for this competition, for the show.

So it's not a retread.

Jordan, it's not a retread.

I will, I wish we had done this presentation last week because then I could have just driven it down to you.

But I will.

Should you pack that into your moving van?

It's that in Texas right now?

Oh, my goodness.

Crazy story.

I don't want it to be.

It's quick is a story.

It's quick.

We had movers.

We paid for movers to pack all of our stuff, right?

And we trusted that they would pack everything safely and securely.

We paid for specialty packing for my desktop for jessica's monitor that she uses uh for work and to them specialty packing meant they would wrap the monitors in moving blankets shove them in a wardrobe box along with one other item in that wardrobe box can you guess what it was this trophy when we got here and plugged in jessica's monitor it was shattered the the screen was destroyed so we're assuming that the cost of this trophy is not only whatever underdog paid us paid reimbursed me to get it, but also Jessica's monitor.

We will be needing to get a new one.

We're thinking it was probably this heavy-ass base that's going to be.

Well, now I feel really, really good about winning it.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Are you trying to get money from somebody?

Jordan, the movers, Underdog?

What is the play?

What is the play?

Oh, the movers, absolutely.

Dan, actually, Dan, you know me too well at this point because you know that I personally feel guilty about this.

Yeah,

you feel things.

You feel feelings.

It's your superpower at all times.

If you didn't won, would you feel guilty?

You shouldn't feel guilty.

I wouldn't give a shit if I didn't want to.

If I would have won, I would have wanted you to send me the broken monitor and I would put that up as my trophy.

Weird.

That would have been fun.

But anyway, here's the trophy, Jordan.

I'll get it to you as fast as whatever shipping level underdog will pay for.

Beautiful.

All right.

Thank you, Mike.

Thank you, Jordan.

Thank you, everybody, for listening.

Next week is Combine Week, so we'll have some fun stuff cooked up on that end of things.

And

that's it.

Mark, anything else to add before we say goodbye?

Well, I would just say thank you to Mike and Jordan for making our Thursdays totally unique.

And it was a pleasure to work with you guys, and we'll keep working with you.

Very nice.

And a shout out to,

of course, Mike's homie in Taiwan.

Kramer.

Absolutely.

Oh, man.

Kramer, whatever you're up to, buddy.

Shout outs, man.

We love you, buddy.

All All right.

Till next time, heat the call.

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